1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace and the remains of a 2 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 1: three year old child stuffed in a toy box. The 3 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: remains were found in a blue, apparently toy chest. That's 4 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: when they saw. I saw them looking at this. I 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: don't know. I believe it was like a toy box. 6 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: I don't know. It wasn't that big. The parents of 7 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: that toddler are now under arrest, thirty nine year old 8 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: Raquel Barreras and forty five year old Martin Barreras. Police 9 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: say three year old Ramone Barreras was forced to live 10 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:43,919 Speaker 1: in a structure that was attached to the outside of 11 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: the home when he was alive. That blue toy chest 12 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: where the landlord found his remains, that was inside that structure. 13 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: Now Ramone's mother, Raquel Baredas, is charged with first degree murder. 14 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: Both she and his father, Martin Barreras, are charged with 15 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: child abuse, but police say more charges could come. The 16 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: family was evicted not too long ago, and the landlord 17 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: was cleaning the property yesterday when they came across this 18 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: blue toy chest and opened it up. The couple has 19 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: four other children. The oldest is nineteen and the youngest 20 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: living child is four. You're hearing our friend Simone del 21 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: Rosaru at kgU NTV in Tucson. I'm Nancy Grace. This 22 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. This 23 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:31,479 Speaker 1: case very very difficult to report. The reason we are 24 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: tackling it here on Crime Stories is in the hopes 25 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: that it will never happen again. Joining me an all 26 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: star panel. Doctor William Moroney, Deputy medical Examiner, Bay County, 27 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: Michigan and author of American Narcan on Amazon, veteran Atlanta prosecutor, 28 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: Kenya Johnson, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert at Jacksonville State University, 29 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and doctor 30 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: Karen Stark, psychologists out of New York. You can find 31 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: her at karenstart dot com. Right now to John Limley, 32 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter. John is very disturbing 33 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: to me that the only way this child was found 34 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: was because the family was basically kicked out of their residence. John, 35 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: let's start at the beginning. This eviction you're talking about 36 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: was just earlier in the year. This family, the Barrera's family, 37 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: It is a couple Martin and Raquel and their five 38 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: children were living in this Tucson Triplex just north of 39 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: the airport. They were evicted from their human from their unit. 40 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: In moving out, they left quite a mess, a lot 41 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: of their belongings scattered inside and outside the home. The 42 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: building's landlord, as we heard, hired a crew to clean 43 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: up the property and get it ready for new tenants. 44 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: While they were gathering up everything that was left behind, 45 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 1: they started working on getting things out of this structure 46 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 1: attached to the unit in the back. One of the 47 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: things inside was a blue toy box, which they first 48 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: moved outside with the rest of the family's stuff. Once 49 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: they opened the box, when they got it outside, they 50 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: discovered something that no one in a million years would 51 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: have expected to find, the decomposed body of a small child. 52 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: What do we know about the little boy? The little 53 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: boy was kept from the better part of the family 54 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: for years. There are aunts and uncles and grandparents who 55 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: had never even seen the child before. The couple, because 56 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: of problems with the law they had had over the years, 57 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: had become very secretive, cloistered and just didn't even contact 58 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: family members, let alone let anyone come into the home. 59 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: There were even some family members that didn't even know 60 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: that Roman had been born, that he existed at the 61 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: time of his death. It's amazing to me that this 62 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: little boy, a three year old little boy, lived in 63 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: relative anonymity, while the siblings were known by relatives, by 64 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: neighborhood members. How did they pull it off? Listen to 65 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: our friend Craig Smith at kgU N. This was the 66 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: last house where Martin and Riquel Berrera lived, the house 67 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: where police actually came to arrest them. The boy's body 68 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: was actually found some distance from here now. The family 69 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 1: members say that couple would change addresses anytime they thought 70 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: someone was about to figure out where they lived. Some 71 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: of them said they pushed that couple for details on 72 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: how that child was doing, details to make sure he 73 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: was okay. But family members say many of them never 74 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: even saw that child at first. Ramond Berrera's uncles and 75 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: aunts did not know. The sad story of a boy's 76 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: bones would touch them. Think it's very shocking when you 77 00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: hear something like that and you pray to God, this 78 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: child someone you know. Now they know the boy was 79 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,559 Speaker 1: Romand Berrera, a three year old. Many of them never 80 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: even saw because they say Romand's parents kept in hidden. 81 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: You know, they would move from one place to the next, 82 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: which made it very difficult for any of the authorities 83 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: to keep up with the child. How does that work, 84 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: Kenya Johnson, This is something that we see often. These 85 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: are deceptive measures that the parents are using to avoid detection. 86 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: And so by moving around that creates when you go 87 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: to different jurisdictions, they're different case files, and oftentimes the 88 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: jurisdictions don't speak to each other. So if the child 89 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: protective services in one area was investigating the family, they 90 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: move and then everything resets, and now it takes a 91 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: while for the neighbors to become concerned with the behavior 92 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 1: and to report it. And you always start fresh in 93 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: every new jersdiction. And so this is a way to 94 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: stay under the radar so that the public in neighbors 95 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 1: can't put two and two together. And I'm curious about 96 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: why no one at school or preschool knew anything going 97 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: on with the child. Listened to stella Ingrid Kgun Today, 98 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: we reached out to TUSD to find out if any 99 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: of the children ever went to school. A spokesperson says 100 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: they did have three children registered at TUSD schools, the 101 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: girls never actually showed up. A twelve year old boy 102 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: did come from time to time to Van Buskirk Elementary. 103 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: He was in fourth grade. TUSD says when he didn't 104 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: show up consistently, they sent a community representative and a 105 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: dropout prevention specialists several times to the homes. No one 106 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: ever answered the door. TUSD filed two reports with CPS 107 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: in October and November of twenty thirteen. They also asked 108 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: police to do a welfare check, you know, a welfare 109 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 1: check to doctor William Moroney, joining me, renowned medical examiner, 110 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 1: joining us out of Michigan, author of American Narkian. Doctor Moroney, 111 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: You've done so many autopsies you probably don't even know 112 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: how many at this point, thousands. It's got to be 113 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: so difficult when you autopsy a child and then you 114 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: learn that all of the systems, you know, safety catches 115 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: have failed. For instance, nobody even followed up when these 116 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: children did not go to school. You know what, doctor Moroney. 117 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: Before you answer that, listen to mankie Vespa immediately report 118 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: show hospital staff noticed the newborn's jitteriness, shrill, crying, and 119 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: high irritability, signs of withdrawal from Rachael Barreras's admitted drug use. 120 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: Percocet and methadone in the years and months leading right 121 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: up to her son's birth. Eventually the symptoms subsided, giving 122 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: way to a new problem again, concerns about not bonding 123 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: with her youngest child, Roman, adding she does not express 124 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: affection or interest in the child, a behavior that quickly 125 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: produced to dire results. Report Shoubriquell forced Roman to sleep 126 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: in the laundry room. She would beat him with a 127 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: broom and cover the bruises with makeup. More than a 128 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: year before his death, one CPS investigator warned Roman faces 129 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: serious injury, grievous suffering, impairment, and even death. His case 130 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: was classified as Level one, the highest risk. CPS recommended 131 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: Riquell not be allowed around the children. The problem. Case 132 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: workers describe Romand's father, Martin, as easily manipulated by his wife, 133 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: adding he was quote unable to be objective about the 134 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: threats too. Doctor William Maroney, When you autopsy a little child, 135 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: a three year old, and you find out that child 136 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 1: protective services have left the child and the home, that's 137 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: got to be so upsetting. For twenty years we have 138 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 1: been following the death of children knowing that they were 139 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: left in the home. State workers sometimes are victims to 140 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: a terrible political system that won't let them act, and 141 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: sometimes they're given the leeway to pull the plug, but 142 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: they just won't and we cannot understand. But the fact 143 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 1: that everybody does evaluations and doesn't talk to anybody else, 144 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 1: everybody lives in these silos, ends up in the autopsy 145 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: of children, and sometimes very young children. The autopsy of 146 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: a child is a very moving, emotional and spiritual event. 147 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 1: It is like no other autopsy of a human being. 148 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: It's quieter, it's more reverent, and it takes a pace 149 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: where you're looking for the absolute most minute details. And 150 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 1: when you know that somebody's been an abused child, you 151 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: clearly have a forensic autopsy that could end up in court, 152 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 1: as opposed to a hospital autopsy, which is just looking 153 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: to fill a piece of paper with a diagnosis. So 154 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: those make the autopsy of children and babies very special 155 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: events and it's very heartbreaking to be in one, and 156 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: it's ten times the heartbreaking to know that it's the 157 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: result of child abuse. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace straight 158 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: out to Professor Forensics Jacksonville State University, author of Blood 159 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: Beneath My Fate, Joseph Scott Morgan, your expertise is evidence. 160 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: How can it be that there's so much evidence that 161 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: this child is being mistreated? And Joe Scott, he didn't 162 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: die a quick death. It wasn't blunt trauma. He died 163 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: a starvation. The brothers and sisters would say, they try 164 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: to sneak him crackers. I mean, what a horrible, horrible life. 165 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: What about the evidence? What evidence would there have been? 166 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: Would there have been a trail of this child's life, 167 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,599 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, No, not if the family had kept him sequestered. 168 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: That has been implied in this particular case. I think 169 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: that probably after this child was born and they were 170 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: able to kind of extricate themselves from the environment at 171 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: the hospital, this child literally was a drift and the 172 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: only salvation that he had was his parents, and they 173 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: didn't offer any assistance. So he's kind of wiped. You know, 174 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,719 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, the only evidence that 175 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: we really have is that little skeleton that's left behind, 176 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: and that's a horrible, horrible thing. Think about this, Nancy, 177 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: This three year old child. On average, a three year 178 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 1: old child should weigh somewhere in the neighborhood of about 179 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: thirty pounds. There's literally nothing left of him other than 180 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: his skeletal remains, and that's a horrible statement when you 181 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: think about it. So how are you going to trace 182 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: this back? It's almost like you're looking for negative findings here. 183 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: There's nothing there. The other people were were being fed 184 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: in the home, they were able to sustain, and that's 185 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: a big point of order here. When you go to 186 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: court with something like this, you say that everybody else 187 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: was receiving nourishment in this home. But here we have 188 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: Ramon who is just left to languish and to die. 189 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: And he wasn't just stuffed into a toy box. He 190 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: was left in a toy box that was his one existence, 191 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: essentially sequestered from the rest of the family. It's absolutely disgusting. 192 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 1: You know, doctor Karen Stark, psychologist joining us out of Manhattan. 193 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: You can find her at Karen Stark. The reality is 194 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: this is a child they picked to murder, and a 195 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: lot of people are blaming the mom, but the dad 196 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: stood by and let it happen. He's just as guilty. 197 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: In my mind, Why is it so often one child 198 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: out of many, one child is targeted? Well, the mother 199 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: is taking her rage and anger out on one child, 200 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: not all of the children. She either identifies with the 201 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: child for some reason, or the child was born at 202 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: the wrong time. Nancy, It's reprehensible, but it really does 203 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: happen where there is one child that gets picked on 204 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: and nothing can be done about it, and unless authority 205 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: step in, and in this case nobody gives the fact 206 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 1: that they left the child's remains behind also a big 207 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: signal to me how little they cared about the child. 208 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: I mean, they packed everything else up when they left, 209 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: and they left him and the toy box behind. I mean, 210 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: doctor Moroney, I don't understand how a year passes and 211 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: you can still de trauma cause of death. How can 212 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: you do that again? You say, you begin with a 213 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: full body X race to look and see if there's 214 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: been any trauma, fractures or blunt force to the skeletal structure, 215 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: and then the actual size of the organs and muscle 216 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: mass versus fat. Weans down the fact that you may 217 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: have had malnourishment, but toxicology might show that this child 218 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: has also been poisoned, and those are all fair game 219 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: and testing in a forensic autopsy. You know, it was 220 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: so upsetting that when the people came in to clean 221 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: up the home to get it ready for the next residence, 222 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: they found this toy box and they actually thought that 223 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: this skeleton was part of Halloween decorations. That's how skeletonized 224 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: his body was What does that mean, Joe Scott. What 225 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: that means, Nancy, is that it's a surreal moment for 226 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: the people that discover this child's body and or what 227 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: remained of the body, because the child is diminished now 228 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: to the point or the remains are diminished now to 229 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: the point where presumably you don't even have any soft 230 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: tissue left that the body has been there for this 231 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: protracted period of time, so that skeletonization has taken place, 232 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: and that really leaves you scratching your head as an 233 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: investigator as to what you're going to list the cause 234 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: of death as and at the end of the day, 235 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure that there were some metrics that 236 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: were taken relative to this event, particularly developmentally the skeleton, 237 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: what was left behind, the growth rate of the bones, 238 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: and this sort of thing. So that's going to kind 239 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: of paint the picture what they're looking at, and I'm 240 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: sure that that's what they're going to court with. Well, 241 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: would that look like doctor Moroni. For the people to 242 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: actually think that his remains were a halloween you know, 243 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: skeleton to be hung up as a decoration. What does 244 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: that mean to you as a forensic expert, a medical examiner? 245 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: What did those remains look like? And why? We know 246 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: that seventy percent of the normal body is water, only 247 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: thirty percent of the body is solid mass. So you 248 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: take a three year old and you take whatever weight 249 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: that three year old is, and you make it thirty 250 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: percent of whatever that weight is the average normal, average 251 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: three year old, And that shows you how small and 252 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: how contracted and how unrecognizable the human body can be 253 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: at thirty percent of its solid mass. We are talking 254 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: about a little boy, Roman Barras found his remains found 255 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: just his bones, so skeletonized, so devoid of any tissue 256 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: or hair, that the cleaners that found him stuffed in 257 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 1: the toy box thought he was actually a halloween decoration. 258 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: How did it come to this? Many people now blaming 259 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: the mother? Why is that? John Linly, Why is the 260 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: mother and not the father being blamed? It seems that 261 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 1: over time the father had actually tried to intervene. There 262 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: was a lot of anger that the mom seemed to 263 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: show towards this child, and the father would try to 264 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 1: sort of diffuse that, try to pull her back from 265 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,880 Speaker 1: her anger and her abuse of the child. She just 266 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: as time went by, was her drug problems became more 267 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: and more intense, so did her abuse of the child 268 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: as well, to the point that she was making the 269 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: child live in this attached structure. Out back to Kenya Johnson, 270 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: veteran Atlanta prosecutor, drugs smugs. I don't care she's on 271 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: drugs or was on drugs or had anger issues. That's 272 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: not a defense, ken Yea. It absolutely is not a defense. 273 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: And it seems like there had been enough interaction with 274 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: the child protective services that some sort of plan should 275 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: have been taken into place or put in place for 276 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: her to keep her children or the children should be removed. 277 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: And so this is a system of oversight that is 278 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: overburdened that they're aren't enough case managers. Training is an issue, 279 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: and so to have people constantly coming to the house 280 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: is a challenge and being slipped through the cracks, and 281 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: this is what happened with Roman. He slipped through the cracks. 282 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, Well, the jury just wrapped 283 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: up its eighth day of trial. It all took place 284 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: up on the sixth floor here at the Superior Chords Building. 285 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: That's where they heard closing arguments. The prosecution went first. 286 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: They showed the jury a picture of the kitchen ware 287 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: Raquel Barrera's cooked the family meals, with Little Roman nearby 288 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: in a playpin in a dark corner, watching and smelling 289 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: the food. There's also a picture of the laundry room 290 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 1: where prosecutors say Roman was kept and locked in. Gentleman, 291 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 1: she is guilty. She is guilty because as his arrogator 292 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: and his mother, she paused his person and out to 293 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: be Indeed, you don't feed any heat, they're not going 294 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: to be okay. She caused or permitted him to be 295 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: placed in a situation where he wasn't. New defense attorney 296 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 1: John O'Brien says that little Roman had cancer and was 297 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: supposed to be getting treatments, treatments that he never received. 298 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: The defense attorney says that's because the father did not 299 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: take him for those treatments. Did John Limley Crimalline dot 300 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter John Limley hearing Lupete and Maria there 301 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: at News four and two. Soundscribe the family going about 302 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: their business, but the little boy being locked up. I mean, 303 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: it's devastating, and it was long periods of time that 304 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: he was forced to live in this sort of lean 305 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: to an attached structure in the back, while the four 306 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: siblings would be inside in enjoying to a certain extent, 307 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: a fairly normal life, eating their meals occasionally when they 308 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: would go to school, maybe doing homework as well, but 309 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: the child completely isolated from the rest of the family 310 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: for days and weeks. It seems as if the defense 311 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: was that everyone else is responsible. Accept the mom and 312 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: dad listen to our friend Eliah Shahid at Niece four. 313 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: Opening statements wrapped up this morning, the prosecution using their 314 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: time to paint a picture of a woman who they 315 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: say abused her son and watched as he slowly starved 316 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: to death, while the defense painted Raquel Barreras as an 317 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: overwhelmed mother who was working through poverty and addiction. In 318 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: her opening statement to the prosecuting attorney said Raquel Berreres 319 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: treated Roman differently than her other children, keeping him isolated. 320 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: The prosecution arguing Raquel knowingly and intentionally abused her child 321 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: in a way that could lead to death. And in 322 00:21:54,880 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: doing so, murdered him. You think both along we can. 323 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: The defense doesn't argue that Quel put Roman's remains in 324 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: the toy chests. She's already pleaded guilty to abandonment or 325 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 1: concealment of a body, but they say she did not 326 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: murder her son, who they called medically compromised. The defense 327 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 1: shifting blame to the Department of Child's Safety as well 328 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 1: as to Roman's father an adult sister people. They say 329 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: it could have done more to help the toddler when 330 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: he was alive while his mother battled addiction. I mean 331 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: to Karen Star, psychologists out of New York. To me, 332 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: that's just shifting the blame. If the mom was addicted, yes, 333 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: I want her to get help, but that does not 334 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 1: relieve her of liability and responsibility for her baby. Absolutely, Nancy. 335 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: I mean, there are people who are addicted and they 336 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: are able to care for their children. And if the 337 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: I mean this mom, she needed to take it out 338 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: on this one child and torture. She actually tortured this baby, 339 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: this little boy, and something should have been done about 340 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: the mom. Really, the mom, because the dad seems like 341 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: he was himself just a with them. He was kind 342 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 1: of brainwashed into going along with this and didn't feel 343 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: strong enough to go up against her. But she is 344 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: culpable for you to take it. Listen to the sister 345 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: testifying about her mom, talking about the mom describing the 346 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 1: little boy as being quote bad and had to be punished. 347 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: This is Ali Potter and he's for today. Roman sister 348 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: testified and said she asked her mom why Roman was 349 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: left inside that toy chest, and the mom replied he 350 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: was very, very, very bad. The brother of Roman also 351 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: testified and said he remembers looking inside the toy box 352 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 1: in the backyard before they moved, and he got emotional 353 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: and said that he saw his little brother dead inside. 354 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: And another sister talked about how Raquel wouldn't let her 355 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: four other kids play with Roman and said it was 356 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: none of their business. According to an autopsy report, the 357 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: child died from starvation and neglect, and also the kids. 358 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: They even talked about how Roman was kept inside a 359 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 1: laundry room that was located outside their house and two 360 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: of the kids would try to sneak to feed at 361 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: their three year old little brother, Crackers. So Joseph Scott Morgan, 362 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University Joe Scott. How long would 363 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: it take to actually starve a child? A lot has 364 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: to be considered here. Nancy was a child, was a 365 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: child in the beginning, receiving proper nourishment, you know, when 366 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: they started their journey in life. You know, as far 367 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: as the feedings took place then, and so as the 368 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: child already in a diminished state. Once you get to 369 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: the point where they're proactively starving the child. In normal circumstances, 370 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: it would take probably you could probably starve a child 371 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: to death within about forty to sixty days. But in 372 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: this case, you know, you don't know what's a child 373 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: completely devoid of food? Were they you know that it 374 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 1: was mentioned that some of the kids were trying to 375 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: sneak this child crackers or were they just left to 376 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: languish over this protracted period of time. That's one of 377 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: the things. That's one of the reasons I'm thinking, how 378 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: long had the family actually existed at this dwelling with 379 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: a deceased child before they even left? You know, how 380 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: long had that child been dead? So there's a lot 381 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: of unanswered questions, and I really understand how you can 382 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: look at a skeleton and determine that the child died 383 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: of starvation. Another issue here is to doctor William Roney, 384 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: medical examiner and author of American Narkian, if the child 385 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 1: had been deprived of food and was starving, that's one thing. 386 00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: Could you look at the body even a year later 387 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: and tell if there had been any other cause of 388 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 1: death like um asphyxiation or blunt force trauma. You can 389 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: tell blunt forced trauma through blood coagulation and bruises that 390 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 1: collect even in starved and dehydrated tissues. You can tell 391 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 1: blunt forced trauma when bruises are matched and overlaying bone fractures. 392 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: And you have to remember, a very very small, young 393 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: child like this is not gonna withstand a lot of force. 394 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: Bones break easy and bleeding bruising and fragile bones breaking, 395 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: plus the malnutrition is gonna make bones break easy. But 396 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: Dr Maroney, there's not any tissue. It's just skeleton now, 397 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: So how can you tell if there was another cod 398 00:26:55,240 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 1: cause of death because bruises under the skin will last. 399 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: There's blood flow until that child dies. There's blood flow, 400 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: and it's the lack of nutrition that leads to starvation 401 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: and the autodigestion muscles are consumed to make energy for 402 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: the heart to beat and for the lungs to breathe. 403 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: But there's still some kind of muscle structure there. It's 404 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:32,719 Speaker 1: just not developed, and that will bruise and bones will break, 405 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: and that's what you look for. Whole body autopsies and skin, 406 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: skin and organs are going to be removed and sliced 407 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 1: and examined under microscale. Again again, there are no organs. 408 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: He's completely skeletonized. There's no muscle, there's no blood, there's 409 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: no skin, there's no organs. It's a skeleton. That's all 410 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 1: there is. Crime stories with Nancy Grace, we moved to 411 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 1: a murder case that ended with a verdict of guilty. 412 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 1: A jury convicted a Tucson mother who starved her son 413 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: to death and then hid his body in a toy box. 414 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: Prosecutor said, Raquel bared Us didn't allow her son Roman 415 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: to play or talk to anyone. A jurors took less 416 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: than three hours to convict her. But at Us will 417 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: be sentenced on July twenty second. The boy's father, Martin, 418 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: faces first degree murder when his trial starts in August. 419 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: You're hearing our friends at kgU in TV describing a 420 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: jury handing down a guilty verdict on mommy. I don't 421 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: understand why not daddy too? John Limley, Crime online dot 422 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter. I think they should both do life 423 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: behind bars without parole, if not the death penalty as 424 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: a pit stop on the way to hell. But why 425 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: was Mommy isolated and tried? First? Tell me about the trial? 426 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: The trial centered on the mom, Riquel because of interviews 427 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: that police had done with members of the entire family 428 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: and including the kids, who would testify that their mom 429 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: was the one that was withholding food, making this child 430 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: stay in this attached structure over time. They mentioned that 431 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: the dad would would try to talk her out of 432 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: some of this abuse, try to reason with her, and 433 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: that she would have none of it. And even the kids, 434 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: as it's been mentioned, over time, they were even trying 435 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: to help the child on their own. Some of these kids, 436 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: you know, less than twelve years old, sneaking food and 437 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: they could easily tell that the child was not well, 438 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: that he was really struggling. Take a listen to Ricky 439 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: Mitchell at wgu NTV. According to the interim complaint filed 440 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: against Raquel Breeds by a Tucson police officer. When officers 441 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: arrived at the home, the children told police their mother 442 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: starved child until death and put child in toy chest 443 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: in backyard. The report says Raquel but Edes denied any involvement. 444 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: The officer continued by writing that the nineteen year old 445 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: daughter stated Raquel responsible, although did not state how, but 446 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: new child was in backyard. A similar account was written 447 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,959 Speaker 1: in the interim complaint filed against Martin Butts. The officer 448 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: wrote that Martin admitted to confronting Raquel about her actions, 449 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: but did nothing further to stop her from starving child. 450 00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: You were hearing the description in the interim complaint right now. 451 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: We know that the mom has been convicted, the dad 452 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: is awaiting trial. I just think it's so lame. Karen 453 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: start to say, the mom did it on her own. 454 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: The dad was right there, and this was not by 455 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: accident or just neglect. They intentionally sequestered the child away 456 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: from other people, would not let him go to day 457 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: school or play school, so other people would not know 458 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: that they were starving and mistreating the child. This was 459 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: an overt at, not just neglect, and the father is 460 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: just as responsible. Karen starts, well, I guess you could 461 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: say that, Nancy. I feel like, yes, he's an adult, 462 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: he was living there, and certainly he should have spoken 463 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: up or done something to make us be different. But 464 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: sometimes it's like Stockholm syndrome, you know, where he begins 465 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: to not have his own personality, and it does sound 466 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: very much like brain rushing. So I don't think he's 467 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: not responsible, but I do think that most of the 468 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: should absolutely fall on the mother. You know. The reality 469 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: is a number of Roman's siblings testified against mom at 470 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: the trial, and they described trying to sneak into the 471 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: family laundry room to try to give their little brother crackers, 472 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: and that have to sneak because they were afraid that 473 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: the mom would then attack them, and the dad would 474 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: stand by and let it happen. So many times this 475 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: child slipped through the cracks of the system. As a 476 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: matter of fact, the Arizona Department of Child Safety removed 477 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: Roman and three of his older siblings from the parents 478 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: when he was born because of him being born with 479 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: drug exposure, but just one year later he was back 480 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 1: with the family. So the doctor William Roney, how do 481 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: you tell when a child has been exposed to drugs? 482 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: At birth. There's a very classic withdrawal that's precipitated right 483 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: after birth. It starts within hours. Shrill prize, inability to 484 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: latch to the nipple and breastfeed, discordinated movements, hypertonic body postures, 485 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: and loose stool and dehydration. All those are the signs 486 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: and symptoms of neonatal abstinence syndrome during opiate withdrawal from 487 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: a mother who had substance used disorder with heroin or opiates. 488 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: You know, I keep thinking about how this child's life 489 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: could have been saved. What effect Karen Start would his 490 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: death and his treatment have on his brothers and sisters 491 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: who saw it all happen. They're traumatized. I have no doubt, Nancy, 492 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: that they have to live with this and feel guilty. 493 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: Especially when you're a kid, you don't know the difference 494 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: between somebody else making something happen in you. You feel 495 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: you do everything that you have the ability to stop it, 496 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: that you make it happen. And so they are going 497 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: to live a tremendous guilt and just knowing think about this, 498 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: that their own mother is a murderer and murdered their brother, 499 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: and that they stood by. There was nothing they could do. 500 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: It's just a horrific story, a terrible, terrible story, you know. 501 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 1: I imagine them going through life feeling as if it 502 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: were their fault, it was their fault, feeling like they 503 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: could have saved their brother as they get older. But 504 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: the reality is they're just children themselves. They don't know 505 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:55,320 Speaker 1: that they're going to have a lifetime of suffering knowing 506 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: this happened under their roof. There are four other children, 507 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: twelve year old, three daughters ages four, seven, and nineteen. 508 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: I don't understand why they're in good health and this 509 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: one is singled out to be tortured for his entire life. 510 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: What will happen now, Kenyan Johnson as the father goes 511 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: to trial, Well, so everything that had come out about 512 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: this case will focus on what did the father know, 513 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: what would the red flags? Did the father participate in 514 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: any of the abuse, and did he have the opportunity 515 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 1: to stop it? So the jerry is going to be 516 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: looking at the father's own culpability and also in light 517 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 1: of what the mother did, what could he have done 518 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: and did he make the situation worse or did he 519 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: try to help? And so death what jerrys are going 520 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 1: to try to decide on whether he should be held 521 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: responsible for in part or in hold for this child's murder. 522 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,760 Speaker 1: What are signs to look for? How can we stop 523 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: this from happening again? Karen start joining us out of Manhattan. 524 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 1: What signs can we look for in other families? Well, 525 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,879 Speaker 1: when a family realizes that there's a child that they 526 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 1: haven't met, and the family keeps moving for a place 527 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: to place, that the kids are in school sometimes and 528 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 1: sometimes not in school, you have to look for abuses. 529 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: This is all child abuse, and teachers now are being 530 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: taught to be aware. You really, it's the frequent absences 531 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: or not turning up at all, all the moving, the 532 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,319 Speaker 1: no one knew this child, and so that's the kind 533 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 1: of thing that you have to pay attention to and 534 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:48,439 Speaker 1: report immediately. And where all now are being taught at 535 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: over and over again what to look for and Arizona 536 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: mother accused of starving her three year old little boy 537 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: dead and putting his body in a toy box has 538 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: been found guilty of first degree murder and child abuse. 539 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: This mom allowed no one to play with, talk to, 540 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: or feed the boy. She created a torture chamber for 541 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:18,720 Speaker 1: this little boy. The defense says it's everyone else's fault. 542 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: A jury disagreed. We wait as justice unfolds and for 543 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: the father, Martin Barreras, to meet up with Lady Justice. 544 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off goodbye friend,