Speaker 1: Rivals as a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,
Speaker 1: and welcome to Rivals, the show about music beefs and
Speaker 1: feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and
Speaker 1: I'm Jordan, and today we're going to discuss the ongoing
Speaker 1: battle between Peter Hook and Bernard Sumner, whose feud not
Speaker 1: only split New Order on several occasions, but also ran
Speaker 1: through their prior band Joy Division. Yeah. You know, we
Speaker 1: talk a lot about like rivalries within bands in this show,
Speaker 1: but in this episode we're not talking about just one,
Speaker 1: but two crucial post punk bands. It would be like
Speaker 1: if John Lennon and Paul McCartney left the Beatles together
Speaker 1: and then they formed an even more successful band after that,
Speaker 1: which I guess makes Stephen Morris like the ringo in
Speaker 1: this scenario, I guess. But after working so closely together
Speaker 1: for the better part of thirty years, these guys came
Speaker 1: to hate each other with a passion and dead is extreme.
Speaker 1: I mean, even for this show. I mean, like, in
Speaker 1: the history of Rivals, I think it's possible that no
Speaker 1: beef has been quite as intense as this one. Would
Speaker 1: you say, yeah, this is white hot? Yeah? Oh yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: this is a blood feude. He's taken this one of
Speaker 1: the grave, Peter Hook is, so without further ado, let's
Speaker 1: get into this mess. That's with some of the best
Speaker 1: of these feuds. It starts in childhood. Peter Hook and
Speaker 1: Bernard some of their first cross paths as grammar school
Speaker 1: students in Salford, England, and they were drawn together, not
Speaker 1: really by music, but by their love of scooters, which
Speaker 1: I didn't realize, but it actually played a role in
Speaker 1: their first falling out. According to Peter Hook's hilarious and
Speaker 1: vindictive memoir Unknown Pleasures, and I would like to say
Speaker 1: writer Peter has written probably fifteen hundred pages over the
Speaker 1: course of three books, just slagging off Bernard Sumner for
Speaker 1: most of this, and uh, it's it's pretty amazing. Highly
Speaker 1: recommend all three of his books. But between hundred words
Speaker 1: words is still not enough. You know, He's given us
Speaker 1: so much and I'm still hung me for more. Oh
Speaker 1: it's so good. But in Unknown Pleasures, the first of
Speaker 1: his three memoirs, he talks about how he and Bernie
Speaker 1: were on a scooter trip in southern France and one
Speaker 1: of their friends their scooter broke down and so they
Speaker 1: needed to pull some money to get the guy scooter
Speaker 1: fix to get back home, and Hookie writes, let's just
Speaker 1: say when it came to helping out, Barney wasn't very helpful.
Speaker 1: After that, I couldn't really look at him the same
Speaker 1: way from then on. They were ruined after that. You know,
Speaker 1: it's hilarious to me this like scooter incident is like
Speaker 1: the inciting incident in their whole relationship. And I love
Speaker 1: that when the book he refers to him as Barney
Speaker 1: because I guess he just hates the nickname Barney, so
Speaker 1: all through the book he only refers to him as Barney.
Speaker 1: That that's the level of petty we're dealing with for
Speaker 1: the rest of this episode, So you know, like buckle up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say that, like from the outset that
Speaker 1: I have a strong bias in favor of Peter Hook.
Speaker 1: I think he's hilarious. I love seeing interviews with him,
Speaker 1: and I have to say that too, as a musician,
Speaker 1: his bass playing is to me like the distinctive sound
Speaker 1: of certainly New Order and maybe even Joy Division, guess,
Speaker 1: along with Ian Curtis's voice. Of course. I mean, whenever
Speaker 1: I think about people ripping off new order. I just
Speaker 1: think of that, you know, very trebly melodic basse that
Speaker 1: Peter Hook brings to the table. So yeah, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be stumping for him, even though I think, as we'll
Speaker 1: see as this episode unfold, he could also be a
Speaker 1: major pain in the butt, right. I mean, he kind
Speaker 1: of has David Crosby syndrome where he's he's hilarious and
Speaker 1: so charismatic and in interviews he's just a quote machine
Speaker 1: and he's so self deprecating that it almost like it
Speaker 1: sort of masks the fact that he's kind of a
Speaker 1: dick and has been throughout this story. But you love
Speaker 1: him anyway, absolutely. So. The real big bang of Joy
Speaker 1: Division is on June four six, when both Uh, Bernie
Speaker 1: and Hookey attend the Sex Pistols Legendary gig at the
Speaker 1: Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall, which is sort of, like
Speaker 1: been mythologizes, like the big bang of the Manchester Music Seed.
Speaker 1: It inspired so many teens and tweens to start bands,
Speaker 1: and Hook and some of there were among them, I guess.
Speaker 1: The next day, Peter Hook borrowed money from his mom
Speaker 1: to buy a bass and and they were off. He
Speaker 1: and Bernie got together as a duo and placed an
Speaker 1: ad in a local music paper, which got in Curtis
Speaker 1: into the mix. And then uh, drummer Stephen Morris came later.
Speaker 1: But I love. Have you heard the story of their
Speaker 1: first drummer. No, I don't think I have. Oh it's
Speaker 1: so good. He was this like London punk guy. I
Speaker 1: think his name was Steve brother Dale, and he was
Speaker 1: in a band called Panic, and he was like proper
Speaker 1: hard London punk, like scary dude, and it wasn't really jailing,
Speaker 1: it wasn't really working, but they were too afraid to
Speaker 1: fire him. So they were driving their like band van
Speaker 1: home and they pulled over and said, oh, man, Steve,
Speaker 1: can you get out. I think we got a flat tire?
Speaker 1: Can you go check it out? So he gets out
Speaker 1: of the van and looks a tire and they just
Speaker 1: speed off in the even there, And I guess that
Speaker 1: was how they fired this guy, because they were too
Speaker 1: afraid to do it any other way. So they eventually
Speaker 1: got Steven Morris, who is significantly less intimidating I would imagine,
Speaker 1: into the band, and um, they consider several band names.
Speaker 1: My favorite was Stiff Kittens, but they eventually went with
Speaker 1: Warsaw after the David Bowie song on Low or Sawa
Speaker 1: and Um, and they were playing together, know that, and
Speaker 1: for a while, I think a couple of months when
Speaker 1: they learned that there was a London man called the
Speaker 1: Warsaw Pack. So it was like you know the spinal
Speaker 1: tap Originals New Originals thing. They had to get a
Speaker 1: new name, and so to avoid confusion with this other band,
Speaker 1: Warsaw Pact, they chose the name Joy Division, which is
Speaker 1: not a very uplifting name. It is the name for
Speaker 1: the sexual slavery wing of the Nazi concentration camp, so
Speaker 1: not a very uplifting It's not a uplifting name if
Speaker 1: you know the origin story. But I have to say
Speaker 1: that I think it's like one of the best band
Speaker 1: names in rock history, especially because of the irony when
Speaker 1: you know what they sound like. It's like there's not
Speaker 1: much joy in Joy Division, but it's but like people
Speaker 1: have talked about this, like the Great Music. British music
Speaker 1: journalist Paul Morley has said that like when you heard
Speaker 1: the name Joy Division, it just seemed like a band
Speaker 1: that you had already loved for ten years. You know,
Speaker 1: there was just something instantly iconic about that, and I
Speaker 1: think it rolls into the first Joy Division record, which
Speaker 1: of course is Unknown Pleasures out in nine, a brilliant record,
Speaker 1: I think, one of the best debut albums ever made.
Speaker 1: I think if you listen to any post punk band
Speaker 1: that has come out in the past forty years, they
Speaker 1: are in some way ripping off that record. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just been incredibly influential. Although in a way, I
Speaker 1: feel like the album cover at this point is more
Speaker 1: famous than the album itself, Like, especially as a T shirt,
Speaker 1: you see it everywhere and oh yeah. I think the
Speaker 1: album cover, along with the band name, it just added
Speaker 1: to this sense of people hearing this band, seeing this band,
Speaker 1: and feeling like, wow, they're already this kind of fully
Speaker 1: formed entity that has like a perfect sound and a
Speaker 1: complete aesthetic, like right out of the gate um. The
Speaker 1: thing about that first record is that they made it
Speaker 1: pretty quickly. I think it was over the course of
Speaker 1: three weekends that they were able to you know, bash
Speaker 1: those tracks out, and you know, in subsequent years, Peter
Speaker 1: Hook would always complain about how long it would take
Speaker 1: New Order to make albums. I think like by the
Speaker 1: time they get to like Waiting for the Sirens Call
Speaker 1: that record took like three years to make, you know,
Speaker 1: versus three weekends for Unknown Pleasures. And I think because
Speaker 1: they work so quickly, Peter Hook and Bernard Sumner, they
Speaker 1: didn't really have time to beef at that time. You know,
Speaker 1: they were young, they were hungry, they were learning how
Speaker 1: to make records. It really wasn't until closer the second
Speaker 1: Joint Division record, and of course the last which came
Speaker 1: out in shortly after Ian Curtis's death, that you started
Speaker 1: to see some conflicts and it really becomes, I think,
Speaker 1: the core conflicts that are going to haunt these guys
Speaker 1: for the rest of their partnership. It really kind of
Speaker 1: comes down to two things. Like one is musical differences
Speaker 1: that I think, especially as we get a new order,
Speaker 1: Bernard Sumner is going to be pulling them away from
Speaker 1: being a straightforward rock band, whereas Peter Hook is going
Speaker 1: to want to stay in that camp. So that's a problem.
Speaker 1: The second problem, which I think we've already seen, is
Speaker 1: that these guys have different personalities. Bernard Sumner seems like
Speaker 1: a pretty quiet, introspective, I think, relatively nice guy. I mean,
Speaker 1: it seems like he's pretty polite and would be nice
Speaker 1: to know, whereas Peter Hook is this loudmouth, brash, hilarious
Speaker 1: but maybe difficult person to deal with, and it just
Speaker 1: seems like that was already coming into play. Like I mean,
Speaker 1: have you heard that story about like how they were
Speaker 1: two essentially opposing camps in this band like Enjoy Division,
Speaker 1: Like while they were making Closer. Yeah, their manager invented
Speaker 1: him to apartments and Hook was in one and he
Speaker 1: headed up sort of a loud bastard brigade, and Bernie
Speaker 1: was in the other with Ian Sumner and sort of
Speaker 1: the more quiet the cultural flat they sort of like
Speaker 1: called themselves. So of course Hooks team loved to just
Speaker 1: tool on the cultural flat, you know, did their hearts content.
Speaker 1: I mean, there were all these stories about like you know,
Speaker 1: Hook taking like and Curtis's girlfriends like panties and stuff
Speaker 1: and like you know, like stringing them up like things
Speaker 1: like that, like real like summer camps, dount. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: these guys were young at the time. I mean I
Speaker 1: think they were only what like exactly, so they were
Speaker 1: like the age of college kids, and like Peter Hook
Speaker 1: was acting like a college kid, but Bernard Sumner was
Speaker 1: already you know, not into that sort of thing, and
Speaker 1: and Ian Curtis was also in that camp, and it
Speaker 1: feels like, you know, for Bernard Sumner maybe already at
Speaker 1: this point he was thinking that, you know, like I'm
Speaker 1: the serious guy, Like I'm the one who maybe has
Speaker 1: like a better idea of like the big picture creative
Speaker 1: direction that we're going to go in. And Peter Hook,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, he's a good bass player, but he's
Speaker 1: sort of a buffoon, you know, So I've got to
Speaker 1: deal with this guy, you know, and and try to
Speaker 1: have patience with him. Whereas I think Peter Hook from
Speaker 1: his perspective, he's looking at Bernard Sumner as what, like
Speaker 1: I guess being like kill joy in a way, or
Speaker 1: like not being a person who's going to embrace being
Speaker 1: in a successful rock band and is going to kind
Speaker 1: of pull them away from the rock and roll path
Speaker 1: towards you know, maybe more of like a sterile sound
Speaker 1: at least in his mind. Yeah, it was got the
Speaker 1: idea that that Hook always looked at Bernie and thinking
Speaker 1: like why are you here? Like why are you why
Speaker 1: do you want to be in a rock band? Like
Speaker 1: what is this? Like? You know, And this comes up
Speaker 1: again and again on like later years, when Bernard doesn't
Speaker 1: want to tour and things like that, Hooks just kind
Speaker 1: of like, well, what what did you get in this for?
Speaker 1: What did you think this was all about? Like getting
Speaker 1: out and play? I know I often wondered what what
Speaker 1: Bernie's relationship with An was like, because I mean you
Speaker 1: read about it in books and stuff. But of course
Speaker 1: after N's death, he was just sort of you know,
Speaker 1: sanctified and uh. Yeah. I often wondered if if Bernie
Speaker 1: sort of the weird power dynamic that to have the Hook,
Speaker 1: if he felt that in any way within two before
Speaker 1: he died. Yeah. I mean again, like you said, it's
Speaker 1: so hard to analyze that stuff because one joy division
Speaker 1: wasn't together very long and to like, Ian Curtis has
Speaker 1: been this saintly figure for so long, I mean much
Speaker 1: longer than he was alive, and it's hard to talk
Speaker 1: about him as being a human being. I mean, It's
Speaker 1: one thing that's interesting with Ian Curtis in the you know,
Speaker 1: the Sumner Hook dynamic, is that I know, all this
Speaker 1: Hook has talked about how he felt like Ian Curtis
Speaker 1: kept uh, sort of a rap on any tensions might
Speaker 1: have existed between them. That like when Ian Curtis was
Speaker 1: around like he was the in question leader. It seems like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then when when Ian died, In died on May
Speaker 1: eighteenth night, on the eve of the band's first US tour,
Speaker 1: and he died by suicide attributed to depression and worsening
Speaker 1: epilepsy and just collapsing marriage. And yeah, like you said,
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of speculation on whether or not
Speaker 1: the group would have been slightly less tumultuous than New Order.
Speaker 1: You know, if if if Ian had lived, he would
Speaker 1: have sort of been able, there wouldn't have been that
Speaker 1: power vacuum that that hook and Bernie sort of rushed
Speaker 1: in to try to fill over the next you know, decade,
Speaker 1: twenty years. Yeah, what's striking to me is that, you know,
Speaker 1: Ian Curtisy dies right before they put out Closer, and
Speaker 1: I guess they had played some of those Closer songs
Speaker 1: before the album came out, Like if you listen to
Speaker 1: that Postumus record still where there's like a bunch of
Speaker 1: live performances on there, they're playing songs like Atrocity, Exhibition
Speaker 1: and Isolation and and other songs that were on Closer,
Speaker 1: but they never toured behind it, and it just seems like,
Speaker 1: you know, Ian just died. They were going to do
Speaker 1: an American tour. Obviously that wasn't gonna happen now, and
Speaker 1: it's like they just had to close the door I'm
Speaker 1: closer and become this new band, and I just wonder,
Speaker 1: you know, it seems like it's some ways maybe Ian
Speaker 1: Curtis exhibited some control over those guys even after he died,
Speaker 1: because they had to focus on just carrying on and
Speaker 1: and in a way sort of burying their grief, and
Speaker 1: that was such an elephant in the room for so
Speaker 1: long that maybe they didn't have time to really go
Speaker 1: after each other in the early years of New Order
Speaker 1: until they became successful. Then of course it all starts
Speaker 1: to go to hell. Yeah, it's crazy to think. I mean,
Speaker 1: I feel like every psychologist now would say this is
Speaker 1: what you don't do. But as they started writing New
Speaker 1: Orders songs like you know a week after Ian Curtis's
Speaker 1: death inquest things like that. I think Peter Hooks said
Speaker 1: in this book that he wrote the baseline of dreams
Speaker 1: never end like you know barely like days after the funeral. Uh,
Speaker 1: and the band's first single, Ceremony was one of the
Speaker 1: last joy Division songs was composed by Ian Curtis. He
Speaker 1: wrote the lyrics, and uh yeah, I I felt that
Speaker 1: they they really had an awkward relationship with their legacy.
Speaker 1: I think Hook was more apt to be the one
Speaker 1: to want to play Joy Division songs in early New Order,
Speaker 1: whereas Bernie he kind of took the Paul McCartney and
Speaker 1: Wings approach and said, you know what, no, I'm doing
Speaker 1: this now that we're gonna start completely fresh. And I
Speaker 1: think there was some tension between them for that off
Speaker 1: the bat too, so it really started them off on
Speaker 1: the wrong foot, just regardless of all their past relationship issues. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's interesting when you hear like early New Order songs
Speaker 1: because it really does sound like Joy Division, or maybe
Speaker 1: a more danceable version of Joy Division, like you can
Speaker 1: easily imagine Ian Curtis singing on a lot of the
Speaker 1: songs on the first New Order album, Movement, which came
Speaker 1: out in one But I think pretty soon after that,
Speaker 1: as they start to evolve, you can hear the differences
Speaker 1: between those groups. It seems like it becomes pretty pronounced
Speaker 1: fairly quickly. Yeah, and like you said, the sonic differences
Speaker 1: in addition to all the personality class was a really
Speaker 1: driving Hook and some of there apart. Uh and Hook
Speaker 1: writes in his book, you know, this was around the
Speaker 1: time when we started having to spend all this time
Speaker 1: programming sequencers and sympthson stuff, and it was boring. He said,
Speaker 1: why can't we just fucking play. We're a band, We've
Speaker 1: written hundreds of fantastic songs. Can't we just play? The
Speaker 1: other guys were busy reinventing pop. Me I liked pop
Speaker 1: just find the way it was. I think that sums
Speaker 1: it up. And they have these musical differences going on,
Speaker 1: and of course there's also the personality clashes happening. And
Speaker 1: I wonder like if it ultimately came down to Peter
Speaker 1: Hook wanting to be a rock star and Bernie not
Speaker 1: really feeling that or feeling some ambivalence about that, because
Speaker 1: it seems like, you know, New Order not touring becomes
Speaker 1: a recurring problem that becomes more pronounced as the band
Speaker 1: progresses that like Peter Hook wants to be this guy
Speaker 1: on the road, he wants to be partying in hotel rooms,
Speaker 1: he wants to be doing below with groupies, living the
Speaker 1: whole life, and Sumner really doesn't. And you know, he
Speaker 1: writes in his book Chapter and Verse, which is a
Speaker 1: fair to say that he only wrote that because Peter
Speaker 1: Hook wrote like words other musical legacy. He felt like
Speaker 1: he had to respond, I did the fit in himself.
Speaker 1: And then Hook went and so I think you went
Speaker 1: in Billboard and basically did like a point by point
Speaker 1: rebuttal of Bernie's book after that too, It's like Peter Hook,
Speaker 1: so yeah, it was basically a big defense book. Peter
Speaker 1: Hook couldn't even let Sumner have his book. It's like, no,
Speaker 1: I've already written, I've written words, but I've ben to
Speaker 1: write even more words and Billboard to further refute like
Speaker 1: what Sumner is saying. But like one of the things
Speaker 1: he writes about Sumner in his book Chapter in Versus,
Speaker 1: just this idea that like he felt that there was
Speaker 1: a delineation between his public and private life and that
Speaker 1: he wanted to have a private life away from the
Speaker 1: band and you know, just kind of live a quiet,
Speaker 1: you know, sort of family existence, I think. And then yeah,
Speaker 1: Peter Hook, who was just I think feeling increasingly frustrated
Speaker 1: that he can't just be on the road all the
Speaker 1: time and and and being this like, you know, conquering
Speaker 1: rock band. Yeah, I think he thought he's being like
Speaker 1: told what to do by the weakest will member of
Speaker 1: the group, and he I think in his own book
Speaker 1: he even talks about how Bernie got the lead vocal
Speaker 1: part because initially, when they first were recording the first
Speaker 1: couple of New Orders songs, I guess Stephen Hook and
Speaker 1: Bernie all recorded just the vocal lines together and it
Speaker 1: was just gonna be a blend the ball three singing.
Speaker 1: And then Bernie said, wait, wait, wait, I want to
Speaker 1: I want to try it again, so they wiped all
Speaker 1: the tracks and then they ended up just leaving his
Speaker 1: voice on there. So he basically by just default got
Speaker 1: the lead singer part. And then later on is this
Speaker 1: we'll see this again and again he's just sort of
Speaker 1: like he took on the perspective of like, well, I'm
Speaker 1: the lead singer. You can't really get rid of me.
Speaker 1: Everybody else's is dispensable. And this would come up when
Speaker 1: they would do their their side projects later on, who
Speaker 1: kind of felt like, well, no, we're a band, we're not.
Speaker 1: But you know, lead singer syndrome. It's a classic classic problem.
Speaker 1: I mean, there is this weird thing with Peter Hook,
Speaker 1: where like you said, he describes Sumner as being the
Speaker 1: weakest wild member of the band, and yet in the
Speaker 1: same breath he'll talk about him being this prima donna
Speaker 1: who is insisting on everything going his way. In one
Speaker 1: of his books, I think it's the New Order book Substance,
Speaker 1: he talks about how like at some point in the
Speaker 1: mid eighties, Sumner would never show up to anything on time.
Speaker 1: That became his big power move to show that he
Speaker 1: was the one in charge. So there is this weird
Speaker 1: thing where Hook is complaining that like something as taking
Speaker 1: all the control, but then also feeling like, well, he's
Speaker 1: also not the best leader. You know, there's sort of
Speaker 1: like a willful uh sort of giving up a responsibility
Speaker 1: in a way by Peter Hook, I feel like in
Speaker 1: these situations, yeah, I mean, speaking of lack of leadership,
Speaker 1: I just want to point out that New Order is
Speaker 1: probably famously one of the like, you know, most ripped
Speaker 1: off bands financially of all time. Like they're just a
Speaker 1: gigantic money pit. I mean. The most famous example involves
Speaker 1: their their song Blue Monday, which had this elaborate UH
Speaker 1: cover for the twelve inch sleeve. I think by Peter
Speaker 1: Saville and somehow the finances of it worked out that
Speaker 1: for every copy sold, the band lost five pence and
Speaker 1: it became the best selling twelve inch single ever. So
Speaker 1: the band lost all this money on their biggest hit
Speaker 1: just and then of course they also go into the Hacienda,
Speaker 1: the Hacienda club in Manchester, which was just a gigantic
Speaker 1: money pit. I think at one point was losing ten
Speaker 1: thou hounds a week and so all they're touring revenue
Speaker 1: just went to paying off that debt. So in addition
Speaker 1: to you know, personality clashes musical differences, they also have
Speaker 1: this massive financial train going on too at this time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just snatching defeat from the jaws of victory over and
Speaker 1: over again. I feel like with with with New Order, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's insane to me, like the Hacienda, that they would
Speaker 1: essentially be making records in order to fund a nightclub
Speaker 1: and I guess also their record label. But you know,
Speaker 1: we're going to see this as this episode unfolds, like
Speaker 1: now Order is like becoming this big band and yet
Speaker 1: they can't fully enjoy the spoils of their success because
Speaker 1: they're paying for a nightclub, which again just seems insane
Speaker 1: to me, like, like what a terrible investment, Like why
Speaker 1: would you just cut your losses at some point? I mean,
Speaker 1: that would be the smart business thing to do. But clearly,
Speaker 1: you know, and we could talk about the Hacienda an
Speaker 1: entirely different episode. I mean, if you haven't seen twenty
Speaker 1: four Hour Party People, which if I don't know what
Speaker 1: you're doing, listen to this episode. If you haven't seen
Speaker 1: that movie, I mean, come on, you pause and put
Speaker 1: that exactly. They talk about that nightclub, uh in that film,
Speaker 1: I think being like an idea as much as a business,
Speaker 1: Like there was just something sort of utopian maybe about
Speaker 1: what that club represented. And also Factory Records as well,
Speaker 1: and like New Order was a big part of that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's just insane that they were doing that.
Speaker 1: And you know, New Order they're progressing as they get
Speaker 1: into the mid eighties and they're and they're turning out
Speaker 1: just like a series of just like perfect pop singles
Speaker 1: and and they're really going to start hitting I think
Speaker 1: their peak around the time that they released Brotherhood in
Speaker 1: six and like this is like one of the most
Speaker 1: fascinating New Order albums to me, because this thing that
Speaker 1: we're talking about the rock side that they have that
Speaker 1: derives from joy division in this dance music side that
Speaker 1: is becoming a bigger part of what they're doing. That
Speaker 1: it seems like Sumner was the one really driving that.
Speaker 1: And quite frankly, you know, as much as I am
Speaker 1: a Peter Hook partisan, you got to give Sumner his
Speaker 1: props for recognizing that this was the sound of the
Speaker 1: eight reason that they were going to be a more
Speaker 1: important band if they could find a way to integrate
Speaker 1: these sounds, right, I mean, isn't that like as much
Speaker 1: as I love Peter Hook, in a way, you have
Speaker 1: to say that Sumner was right in his instincts to
Speaker 1: be pushing new order in this direction. Yeah, and then
Speaker 1: they were successful at it too, I mean, not only
Speaker 1: thinking about it just being progressive from a musical standpoint.
Speaker 1: But it worked. I mean, Blue Monday was the biggest
Speaker 1: twelve inch selling of all time. I mean, this was
Speaker 1: something that was in their best in a rare candy
Speaker 1: financial move to actually pursue the sound as well. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think Hook just viewed it is veering too far
Speaker 1: from the roots, you know, at that Sex Pistols gig,
Speaker 1: and he also he felt that, you know, he was
Speaker 1: primarily the main acoustic player in the band, and that
Speaker 1: Bernie was quite literally limiting him, turning him down. I
Speaker 1: guess during the recording a Brotherhood he talked about how
Speaker 1: like he said that Bernie and the engineer had some
Speaker 1: kind of device put on his base that they could
Speaker 1: kind of turn down, and he felt, you know, muzzle. Basically,
Speaker 1: I love that stage in the band's career when they
Speaker 1: start arguing about like the levels of each band member
Speaker 1: in the studio, like turn the vocals down, turn your
Speaker 1: base down, you know, turn this up. And that's always
Speaker 1: a great sign, you know, those ego battles over, you know,
Speaker 1: being manifested in in the mix of a record. But
Speaker 1: like with Brotherhood, the clash between Hook and Sumner just
Speaker 1: seems more stark than it ever would be because on
Speaker 1: side one you essentially have a rock record, and on
Speaker 1: side too you have the dance record, so it's just
Speaker 1: split pretty evenly between those two sides. And of course
Speaker 1: the big hit from that record ends up being on
Speaker 1: the dance side, which is Bizarre Love Triangle that becomes
Speaker 1: a huge defining hit for New Order. And then there's
Speaker 1: also the single True Faith, which comes out of this
Speaker 1: period it ends up being released on the album Uh Substance,
Speaker 1: the singles compilation that ends up really breaking them in America.
Speaker 1: And I have to say that True Faith to me,
Speaker 1: like if I were to make a list of perfect
Speaker 1: pop songs, True Faith would be on the list. Like,
Speaker 1: I just think it's an incredible song. I mean, don't you.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah? And I think, actually I hope could at
Speaker 1: least later take credit for it. I don't know how
Speaker 1: much that's true, but yeah, I mean it's funny that
Speaker 1: one of the best dance songs they made I think
Speaker 1: came from him primarily well, because he would also talk
Speaker 1: about how didn't he say something about how he felt
Speaker 1: like it was a like a Pet Shop Boys rip
Speaker 1: off and like not a very good one. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He hated Neil Tennant. He hated the Pet Shop Boys.
Speaker 1: He would whenever he wanted to like come up with
Speaker 1: a reference for like, you know, disposable electro late eighties pop,
Speaker 1: he would always name drop the name check the Pet
Speaker 1: Shop Boys, which I think is also an interesting comparison
Speaker 1: because at this time they're also working with Stephen Hague,
Speaker 1: who was the producer of the early Pet Shop Boys
Speaker 1: hits like West End Girls, and I think that's why
Speaker 1: New Order ended up working with him. So I'm sure
Speaker 1: that was like also part of his resentment with with
Speaker 1: True Faith that they were working with the same producer
Speaker 1: as the Pet Shop Boys. But again, it's a perfect
Speaker 1: pop song, and you know, I always laugh, Like one
Speaker 1: of my favorite videos of of New Order is them
Speaker 1: playing on top of the Pops in seven Uh, and
Speaker 1: they're performing True Faith and Peter Hook is wearing a
Speaker 1: leather jacket and he's playing his bass like around his ankles,
Speaker 1: like he looks like a member of Japan Droids, you know,
Speaker 1: not a member of this like synth pop group. And
Speaker 1: I don't know. To me, it just signifies the tension
Speaker 1: in the band because even when they're playing this song
Speaker 1: that I think for a lot of people is one
Speaker 1: of the defining examples of like great eighties synth pop,
Speaker 1: it's like Peter Hook still had to look like he
Speaker 1: was playing in a punk band, didn't you under stay
Speaker 1: one of his books, like one of his shoulders or
Speaker 1: one of his arms like significantly longer than the other
Speaker 1: from like years of playing bass that low, Like that's
Speaker 1: tough to do, Yeah, I would imagine. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: very low and again it reminds me of like like
Speaker 1: a Sid Vicious or like a Duff mccagan type you know,
Speaker 1: bass stance or uh, you know, like add Ramon type thing.
Speaker 1: But yeah, he had to wave that flag even when
Speaker 1: musically they were clearly moving away from those roots. All right, hand,
Speaker 1: we'll be right back with more rivals. Substance takes off
Speaker 1: in the US. They go on their first real big
Speaker 1: American tour and uh, and and Bernie seems to hate
Speaker 1: every minute of it. I mean, this is really when
Speaker 1: he starts pulling I mean the diva card in Peter's book. Uh.
Speaker 1: He says, you know, he would ask for these lengthy
Speaker 1: sound checks and then not show up till the very end,
Speaker 1: and he would say, you know, it was fine because
Speaker 1: every given situation was improved by Barney's absence, so we
Speaker 1: weren't bothered one bit. Everybody had had bad memories of
Speaker 1: sound checks where Twatto his pet name for Bernie, would
Speaker 1: turn up and ruin it by sulking, stamping about, moaning,
Speaker 1: and putting everyone on edge. So my favorite story from
Speaker 1: this tour also is I guess some there demanded hot
Speaker 1: food backstage at all times, and they use some kind
Speaker 1: of Sterno or something that I guess made everybody sick,
Speaker 1: and everybody had horrible stomach paints from this hot food
Speaker 1: that Bernie demanded. And then Bernie sort of getting really sick,
Speaker 1: and Hook thought, well, he's just being a eva. He's
Speaker 1: just you know, let him, He's just he just wants attention.
Speaker 1: And he ended up going to the hospital for an ulcer.
Speaker 1: I guess he hated touring that much then end up
Speaker 1: giving himself an ulcer, and they canceled I think one
Speaker 1: of the first and only tour dates they ever canceled
Speaker 1: in Detroit, and Hook, in his book writes that he
Speaker 1: thinks that this was a real turning point for Summer
Speaker 1: because he realized the band can't do this without me,
Speaker 1: you know, like like they cannot go on stage without me.
Speaker 1: He really thinks that that's the moment that gave Bernie
Speaker 1: like a big hit because he realized that, you know,
Speaker 1: the show couldn't go on without Yeah, you know. It's
Speaker 1: it's amazing with Sumner because you look at him and
Speaker 1: he's like not a conventionally good singer, and I think
Speaker 1: even comparing him to Ian Curtis, who wasn't a great singer,
Speaker 1: but he had a great sounding voice, and he had
Speaker 1: a wonderful presence about him. It was very distinctive, and
Speaker 1: he could make his voice work perfectly in the framework
Speaker 1: of Joy Division, where it just evoked the mood so perfectly.
Speaker 1: And Sumners somehow was able to do the same thing
Speaker 1: in New Order, where there's something about the flatness of
Speaker 1: his voice that just perfectly convey something like quintessentially eighties
Speaker 1: to me, I mean, I think of that movie, you know,
Speaker 1: American Psycho, where, uh, there's the same thing in that
Speaker 1: idea of this flatness of delivery and the way that
Speaker 1: people talk and how that is masking a darkness that
Speaker 1: is running in the undercurrent of of the culture at
Speaker 1: the time. And maybe I'm thinking of that example because
Speaker 1: like True Faith is in that movie, there's a scene
Speaker 1: like where Patrick Bateman is dancing to that song. It's
Speaker 1: just so perfect for like what New Order was doing
Speaker 1: at that time, that they could make these great pop
Speaker 1: songs that always had a subversive edge to them. Uh,
Speaker 1: there's always, like I think, a deeper darkness in there.
Speaker 1: I had to say too that, like, I think some
Speaker 1: of that also comes from the sound of Peter Hook's
Speaker 1: bass sound again. You know, I mentioned that at the top,
Speaker 1: that very trebly, melodic basse that he brought to the records,
Speaker 1: even as they became more of a pop, you know,
Speaker 1: dance band essentially. You know, he would still kind of
Speaker 1: force his way unto those tracks. And it's like, when
Speaker 1: I hear that bass sound cut through the mix, it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is New Order, Like I know it's New Order now.
Speaker 1: I mean you're a bass player. I mean where do
Speaker 1: you feel like Peter Hook ranks in the animals of
Speaker 1: great bass players? Oh? Yeah, I mean I feel like
Speaker 1: he pioneered, like the lead base part. I I I
Speaker 1: think his bass part gives those tracks humanity because I
Speaker 1: I tend to like Joy Division more than New Order
Speaker 1: for the reason you just mentioned. There's something very clinical
Speaker 1: and even though even though it's dancy, there's there is
Speaker 1: a darkness to it that does set me on edge.
Speaker 1: And his baselines kind of like the human element that
Speaker 1: pokes through. Not only I mean they just incredibly crafted
Speaker 1: and melodic baselines that you know, it sounds like Paul
Speaker 1: McCartney at his best doing those like elaborate uh Sergeant
Speaker 1: Pepper runs and revolver runs on his Rickenbacker. Um, But yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like that's what keeps it tethered in the
Speaker 1: human range and away from the computers. And yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that's the part of Joy Division that they were
Speaker 1: able to most successfully bring over a New Order, and I,
Speaker 1: you know, I appreciate that the most. It seems like
Speaker 1: the power struggle between Hook and Sumner, which in a
Speaker 1: lot of ways, at least musically, seems to be about
Speaker 1: Hook insisting that his base beyond their records. Like that
Speaker 1: seems to be like the story of New Order albums
Speaker 1: as they progress in the eighties, like Peter Hook wanting
Speaker 1: to find a space for himself and these again increasingly
Speaker 1: sequenced and dance oriented records kind of reaches its peak,
Speaker 1: I think with the album Technique, which I'd love to
Speaker 1: read like more about the making of this record, because apparently,
Speaker 1: like New Order, they decamped to Abisa. I don't know
Speaker 1: why you would want to work in Abisa. It seems
Speaker 1: like not a great work environment because you're in this
Speaker 1: beautiful setting. You have, like you know, sexy, glamorous people
Speaker 1: all around you. I'm sure there's like lots of great
Speaker 1: drugs flowing through the island. You just want to go
Speaker 1: to dance clubs, and I think that's what Peter Hook
Speaker 1: wanted to do. He just wanted to party on this island.
Speaker 1: But it does seem like it did have some sort
Speaker 1: of artists they pay off for the band, because at
Speaker 1: least Bernard Sumner like he was going to dance clubs
Speaker 1: and he was soaking up like the acid house music
Speaker 1: that was happening on the island at that time, and
Speaker 1: it seems like that was a big influence on that
Speaker 1: album technique. But again you have this thing where Peter
Speaker 1: Hook is i think still kind of validly holding on
Speaker 1: to this old idea of like them playing as a
Speaker 1: band and and Sumner and it's it seems like the
Speaker 1: other members of New Order, Stephen Morris and Jillian Gilbert,
Speaker 1: they kind of went more along with Sumner. Ultimately. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, to your point, it's in their best interest
Speaker 1: that Peter's baselines were on there, because I think if
Speaker 1: they had just gone with sequences are synth for the
Speaker 1: base on, they would have sounded like every other eighties band.
Speaker 1: I think that's probably what made them stand out. And yeah,
Speaker 1: the IBSA, I think IBSA was where they got their
Speaker 1: ideas for the album. But I think in Peter's book
Speaker 1: he was saying how they didn't actually get a lot
Speaker 1: of work done. They spent probably like five times the
Speaker 1: amount of time there, but they only got like, you know,
Speaker 1: ten percent of the album done there and then they
Speaker 1: went back to England and actually finished it. Not one
Speaker 1: of my favorite albums. What what do you think? Something
Speaker 1: about it just seemed a little too The Veneer was
Speaker 1: a little too sharp. I don't know, there was something
Speaker 1: about it that I I yeah, I mean I can
Speaker 1: see feeling that way. If because and I said to
Speaker 1: be more of a Division fan, and in a way
Speaker 1: I am too, I would probably lean more towards Joy Division,
Speaker 1: although I love New Order, and I think the argument
Speaker 1: for Technique is that I think that is sort of
Speaker 1: the ultimate manifestation of like the evolution that Joy Division
Speaker 1: into New Order had at the end of the eighties,
Speaker 1: Like that was what they were building up to, that
Speaker 1: this was going to be a record where I think
Speaker 1: it's really hard to separate the rock and the dance influences,
Speaker 1: like in the way that you can easily separate on Brotherhood.
Speaker 1: Maybe to that Records detriment, Although I like that there's
Speaker 1: a rock side in the dance side. I think it's
Speaker 1: a really sort of interesting split, and I think there's
Speaker 1: great songs on that record, But on Technique it's like
Speaker 1: fully integrated. And I think when you look at what
Speaker 1: was going to be happen sending in British rock in
Speaker 1: eighty nine and beyond, you know, like with bands like
Speaker 1: Stone Roses and Happy Mondays and Primal Scream, you know,
Speaker 1: all those groups that we're going to be, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of taking rock music in that direction. You have
Speaker 1: to look at Technique as being like a very foundational
Speaker 1: record of that sort of evolution. I have to say
Speaker 1: to that. In a way, I feel like New Order
Speaker 1: ended with that record, because that's when you start to
Speaker 1: see these side projects come into play, and it just
Speaker 1: seems like them being like a real band, Like they're
Speaker 1: gonna come together and follow apart over the next couple
Speaker 1: of decades. But I don't know if it's ever going
Speaker 1: to be quite the same after this record. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: sounds like Peter Hook would agree with you. He was
Speaker 1: saying that they were on tour uh In and Bernie
Speaker 1: basically gave them right before a gig the I want
Speaker 1: to work with other people talk, which you know, I think,
Speaker 1: he writes, he said he played the irreplaceable frontman card
Speaker 1: and won the hand. From that moment onwards, we were
Speaker 1: always wondering what Barney might do next, whether we were
Speaker 1: so plus two requirements, and it cast a power of
Speaker 1: doubt and uncertainty over the whole band from then on,
Speaker 1: because yeah, he said. You know, we know now that
Speaker 1: they got back together on several other occasions, but at
Speaker 1: the time, it seemed like that could have definitely been
Speaker 1: the end. And I think it was almost like a
Speaker 1: new young situation where they wanted to sort of like
Speaker 1: acquiesced to his desires just to sort of keep them, yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure. And and also, I mean they're also starting
Speaker 1: to form their own bands at this point too, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, because like, I think that was a big
Speaker 1: problem for Peter Hook that Bernard Sumner went off and
Speaker 1: formed Electronic with Johnny Marr. I love the fact that
Speaker 1: in Peter's book he talks about Johnny Marr. He claims
Speaker 1: that Johnny Marr wanted to form a band with him first,
Speaker 1: and he said, no, he's made my heart's a new order.
Speaker 1: I don't want to do this. And then you know,
Speaker 1: a short while later he teams up with Bernie. I
Speaker 1: thought that was a really funny like, yeah, no, he
Speaker 1: wanted me first, but I said no, I had integrity.
Speaker 1: I wanted to stay with New Order, and Bernie's the
Speaker 1: one who wanted to split the band and go off
Speaker 1: and do this this other thing. But but yeah, he
Speaker 1: formed Electronic with with Johnny Marr uh, and I think
Speaker 1: it also worked with Neil ten from the Pitch Up
Speaker 1: Boys too, and uh, I didn't enjoy it for the
Speaker 1: same reason I didn't really like Technique, although I don't
Speaker 1: get the message is a good song and it's it
Speaker 1: huge numbers on both sides of the Atlantic. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I I think it was just I certainly don't like
Speaker 1: it anywhere near as much as New Order. What do
Speaker 1: you think? Yeah, I think it's okay. I mean again,
Speaker 1: I'm of the opinion that these two guys are great together.
Speaker 1: Obviously we have Joy Division and New Order in that
Speaker 1: column where these guys are working together, and then you
Speaker 1: have Electronic and then yeah, Peter Hooks band Revenge, which
Speaker 1: I feel like, should we just take that band name
Speaker 1: a face value? That he was like sticking it to
Speaker 1: Bernard Sumner by forming his own band. I mean, it
Speaker 1: seems like that's pretty straightforward there. I mean, he claimed
Speaker 1: it was he took it from the word that was
Speaker 1: on George Michael's leather jacket in the Faith video. But
Speaker 1: I mean, these band names are very on the nose.
Speaker 1: I mean, Bernie forming an electro band called Electronic and
Speaker 1: then forming a rival band called Revenge. Yeah, it seems
Speaker 1: like they got the name thing down pretty well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like if you were making like the biopic about these guys,
Speaker 1: you would think, Okay, like this is just too obvious,
Speaker 1: you know, like we're being a little too on the
Speaker 1: nose by having these the side projects. But they end
Speaker 1: up coming back together for the album Republic, and according
Speaker 1: to Peter Hook anyway, it seems like this wasn't something
Speaker 1: that they would have done of their own volition. That
Speaker 1: they were essentially hustled into the studio because Factory Records
Speaker 1: and the Hacienda again we're just hemorrhaging money and they
Speaker 1: needed a new order record to keep those companies afloat.
Speaker 1: So they end up working on this record and it
Speaker 1: ends up being a pretty miserable experience, right, But it's
Speaker 1: actually one of my favorite albums of There's too I mean,
Speaker 1: it's got I think it was their biggest hit in
Speaker 1: the US, right, it was something like that. It did
Speaker 1: extremely well, but yeah, this was not something that they
Speaker 1: would have done on their own volition. Yeah, the song Regret,
Speaker 1: I think is one of their best singles, and I
Speaker 1: think one of the best sounding songs I've ever heard.
Speaker 1: I mean, just like the mix of that I think
Speaker 1: is so perfect. And again you have, I think, everything
Speaker 1: very distinctively New Order on that song. You have uh
Speaker 1: this great uh you know, Bernard Sumner vocal on there
Speaker 1: with his guitar playing off of Peter Hook's very melodic
Speaker 1: bass sound. And uh. The thing about New Order songs
Speaker 1: too that always blows me away is that, like their
Speaker 1: choruses are usually just like another verse, you know, like
Speaker 1: it's not just like it's not a conventional type of
Speaker 1: chorus where maybe you're just singing like a very punchy
Speaker 1: phrase over and over again. You're just kind of going
Speaker 1: into like another line and it ends up being like
Speaker 1: a very wordy chorus, like the way it is on Regret,
Speaker 1: Like I would like a place I can call my own,
Speaker 1: have another conversation on the telephone. All that it's very
Speaker 1: similar to to True Faith and Bizarre Love. Triangle. It's
Speaker 1: a very unique songwriting uh technique, and it's against something
Speaker 1: that makes it very distinctively new order. But yeah, even
Speaker 1: in spite of all that commercial and creative success, they
Speaker 1: really went into a downturn after that. I think they
Speaker 1: didn't speak together for something. I didn't speak to one
Speaker 1: another for something like five years afterwards. They only really
Speaker 1: got back together in the suggestion of their manager, and
Speaker 1: Hook would later claim that their manager, Rob Gretton, got
Speaker 1: him and Steve and Jillian together first and suggested touring
Speaker 1: without Bernie. But then Hook, you know, said he did
Speaker 1: the stand up thing and said, no, we're not in
Speaker 1: the order without Bernie, so go get him. So he
Speaker 1: takes credit for getting the entire band back together. It's,
Speaker 1: you know, for debate whether or not that's true. But yeah,
Speaker 1: they had a sort of a honeymoon period. They all
Speaker 1: got together and tried to iron out their differences beforehand,
Speaker 1: and recording their two thousand one album, get Ready, went
Speaker 1: reasonably well, although I think Hook was really frustrated that
Speaker 1: that Bernie really didn't want to tour much, and he
Speaker 1: also really really was angry that Bernie would go off
Speaker 1: and write his own lyrics and vocal parts, because he
Speaker 1: he made a really interesting point. He said, you know,
Speaker 1: I view recording as a team sport, and everybody plays
Speaker 1: their positions. Bernie sacrifices everything to the song. You know,
Speaker 1: if he has an idea for for the baseline or
Speaker 1: this or that, he's gonna go in and do it
Speaker 1: regardless of He doesn't mind getting in there and elbowing
Speaker 1: people out of the way if he thinks it suits
Speaker 1: the song, which I think it's a very generous read on.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a nice way of saying that he's
Speaker 1: a control freak. I guess I think this can be
Speaker 1: regarded as somewhat of a honeymoon period for these guys.
Speaker 1: I know that Peter Hook has talked about how he
Speaker 1: felt that him and Sumner worked together as well as
Speaker 1: they had in years on get Ready, and you know,
Speaker 1: he had gone into that project saying that, like, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to make another New Order record if it's
Speaker 1: like Republic, because again, like that experience was really bad. Apparently,
Speaker 1: like the rest of the band had worked on their
Speaker 1: own for a long time while Sumner was off doing
Speaker 1: his own thing with Electronic and then he came in
Speaker 1: late in the process and basically just kind of redid
Speaker 1: everything and it just wasn't them working together as a band,
Speaker 1: and I think that's what again Hook really wanted them
Speaker 1: to do. And when you listen to that record get Ready,
Speaker 1: I mean, it does sound like a band record, and
Speaker 1: it does also sound more like a rock record, like
Speaker 1: the big single Crystal off that record, which I think
Speaker 1: is a great song. I mean that sounds like an
Speaker 1: alt rock song inspired by the nineties, you know, like
Speaker 1: I think like Billy Corgan is on that album, like
Speaker 1: Bobby Gillespie from Primal Scream is on that is on
Speaker 1: that album. It's funny too, because like when you watch
Speaker 1: the video for for Crystal, the name of the band
Speaker 1: that's performing in that video is called The Killers, And
Speaker 1: that's where the Killers got their name, was from that
Speaker 1: music video. Yeah. So of course the Killers being one
Speaker 1: of the many bands that borrowed a lot from New Order,
Speaker 1: you know, as they progress in their career. But it's
Speaker 1: funny to me that like one of the sources of
Speaker 1: tension like that sort of spoiled this honeymoon again was
Speaker 1: related to the Hacienda. It was a rare, financially canny
Speaker 1: move on on Peter Hook's part the Hacienda finally closed
Speaker 1: after you know, dying a long death in and Peter
Speaker 1: bought the name rights to it, which you could then
Speaker 1: license to, you know, compilation albums. I think he actually
Speaker 1: even licensed it to some a block up apartment flats
Speaker 1: that were built on the site. And he said it
Speaker 1: was all above board, but Bernie made it seemed like
Speaker 1: and and felt that it was he went behind the
Speaker 1: band's back and bought the naming rights for this thing
Speaker 1: that they all sunk so much money into over the years,
Speaker 1: and then he took it for himself. Peter would say,
Speaker 1: you know, that's really stupid. I've been going to Hassienda
Speaker 1: meetings every week for years and and Bernie just never cared.
Speaker 1: I was offered the opportunity to buy it, and I did,
Speaker 1: and you know, I have no regrets about it. But
Speaker 1: that made it seem like, as far as Bernie was concerned,
Speaker 1: that there was some kind of sneaky double dealing behind
Speaker 1: his back, and that really spoiled their relationship. I don't
Speaker 1: think I ever recovered from that. Actually, yeah, I think
Speaker 1: Sumners said that like he lost respect for Peter Hook
Speaker 1: after that, which seems like a little dramatic to me,
Speaker 1: maybe I'm not fully appreciating the steak that they all
Speaker 1: had in the Hacienda. It just seems odd to me
Speaker 1: that again, like the goddamn Hacienda winds up ruining this
Speaker 1: band in a way. It's like, why do you have
Speaker 1: so much invested in this in this nightclub? It just
Speaker 1: seems insane to me. But you know, I think another
Speaker 1: thing that was happening at this time time is that
Speaker 1: they started working on the next New Order record, which
Speaker 1: was waiting for The Siren's Call, which didn't come out
Speaker 1: until two thousand five. And I alluded to this earlier,
Speaker 1: but this was a record that they worked on for
Speaker 1: three years. I think there's something like a half dozen
Speaker 1: different producers that worked on that record. It just seems
Speaker 1: like one of those like really overcooked, like superstar band
Speaker 1: type albums. I actually think that there's like some pretty
Speaker 1: decent songs on that record. I don't know how you
Speaker 1: feel about that album. Peter would say that they initially
Speaker 1: started off almost like approaching it as they would enjoy
Speaker 1: the Vision project where they would jam together and refine ideas,
Speaker 1: and it was probably the most bad like album in
Speaker 1: the beginning that they had made for years, and then
Speaker 1: Hook would claim at least that Barney would just unilaterally
Speaker 1: decided that he would go off and again write all
Speaker 1: of his these lyrics and vocal melodies on his own,
Speaker 1: and that kind of soured the experience for him at
Speaker 1: that point. And also Hook's uh alcoholism at this point
Speaker 1: was really reaching an extremely bad state. So that also
Speaker 1: contributed to, uh, a not great studio environment. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Peter Hook again being more of the like rock star
Speaker 1: in the band essentially, like he was. He's admitted to
Speaker 1: this that he had like a full blown alcoholic breakdown,
Speaker 1: you know during the making of this record. I wonder
Speaker 1: if to some degree that was fueled just by his
Speaker 1: frustration over not being able to tour, you know, because yeah,
Speaker 1: I think he just felt probably constrained in this band
Speaker 1: that we're working on this record, it's taken forever, and
Speaker 1: I can't even go on the road, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: and being a musician, and that causes him to start
Speaker 1: this sideline career where he's a celebrity DJ essentially, and
Speaker 1: this ends up being like a big thing for him
Speaker 1: that like he's touring the world, spinning records for people,
Speaker 1: and I guess that was a replacement for being a
Speaker 1: touring musician at this time, you know, like he wanted
Speaker 1: to be on the road. So it's like, I can't
Speaker 1: play with New Order, so I'm gonna be a DJ.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna play post punk songs for for kids in nightclubs.
Speaker 1: This this is going to be a great for me.
Speaker 1: And this is another thing that ends up sort of
Speaker 1: contributing to the deterioration of this band because they're working
Speaker 1: on the next New Order record, which is Lost Sirens,
Speaker 1: ends up being the last record with Peter Hook, and
Speaker 1: according to Bernard Sumner, like they wanted to have Peter
Speaker 1: Hook come into the studio to play, and Hook was
Speaker 1: basically like, I can't do it. I'm dejaying, So then
Speaker 1: you know, he couldn't be around and and again it
Speaker 1: just seemed like that was another thing that just really
Speaker 1: stuck in Sumners cross. The best part is that Peter
Speaker 1: later admitted that when he was dejaang, he wasn't actually djaying.
Speaker 1: He was just playing pre mixed CDs and then miming,
Speaker 1: you know, like putting his hands to his headphones and
Speaker 1: on the turntables and stuff. So I don't know, isn't
Speaker 1: that what every DJ does I think that's my you know,
Speaker 1: I have a conspiracy theory about every DJ. They're just
Speaker 1: playing mixed CDs or they got like a really cool
Speaker 1: Spotify playlist and there and they have they're pretending to
Speaker 1: play you know, cool vinyl. But yeah, they're just they're
Speaker 1: just chilling back there scrolling through their Instagram feed. As
Speaker 1: a long term wedding DJ, I can say, you put
Speaker 1: your one hand up to your headphone and just kind
Speaker 1: of bob your head. You're a DJ. There you go,
Speaker 1: even if you listen to Spotify. So they do their
Speaker 1: final tour in South America in late two thousand and six,
Speaker 1: and for some of their Hook is just becoming more
Speaker 1: and more unbearable. Uh, he's just writing his memoir that
Speaker 1: you know, he refused to sit near him on planes.
Speaker 1: It would just kind of like catch him giving him
Speaker 1: glares across the stage, and whenever a camera would try
Speaker 1: to do a close up on Bernie on stage, took
Speaker 1: with like, you know, walk in front of it and
Speaker 1: block him. It was a really rough time and he
Speaker 1: would say he would cite that the fact that Hook
Speaker 1: got sober as sort of like he said, he turned
Speaker 1: into a worse person. I didn't with his quote. Uh
Speaker 1: and hohok kind of agreed. He'd say, you know, for years,
Speaker 1: I've been stuffing down all my frustration with with Bernie,
Speaker 1: with with with alcohol and just kind of dulling my senses.
Speaker 1: Now I was clean, I'm thinking, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: have to deal with this. I'm tired of this. I'm
Speaker 1: tired of Bernie, he said. I'm sick of having my heartbroken.
Speaker 1: I was sick of trying to play music and being
Speaker 1: told to turn it down. I was sick of having
Speaker 1: the touring experience spoiled by someone who, by his own
Speaker 1: frequent admission, didn't want to be there. And I was
Speaker 1: sick of being dick aded too in studio sessions. I
Speaker 1: was just fucking sick of Bernard Sumner. And uh, it
Speaker 1: all builds up to this, Uh, this show in Buenos
Speaker 1: Aires where he tells the local press, you know, this
Speaker 1: is probably gonna be our last show, and uh, all
Speaker 1: throughout the tour that was kind of the just the feeling.
Speaker 1: He famously he would write messages on his base cab,
Speaker 1: and for the last couple of dates in the tour,
Speaker 1: he wrote in a series of messages two boys formed
Speaker 1: a band, then the next day it all went wrong.
Speaker 1: Then in the next day they split and then for
Speaker 1: their last gig, the end, and that was really the
Speaker 1: end of Peter Hook in the band. Yeah, Like he
Speaker 1: does this thing in Me two thousand seven where he
Speaker 1: announces that they're breaking up without talking to the other
Speaker 1: guys in the band. And if you listen to this show,
Speaker 1: you know that this has happened in other bands. You know,
Speaker 1: this happened in Pink Floyd with Roger Waters, it happened
Speaker 1: in Talking Heads with David Byrne, and it happened in
Speaker 1: New Order. And I think it's hilarious that this came
Speaker 1: out of an interview that Peter Hook was doing promoting
Speaker 1: his appearance on a record by a band called Satellite Party,
Speaker 1: which was like one of Perry Farrell's, like many side projects.
Speaker 1: I feel like every X musician in a band who
Speaker 1: left prematurely has ended up in a band with Perry
Speaker 1: Farrell at some point. It's just one of the laws
Speaker 1: of rock history that like, if you leave your band prematurely,
Speaker 1: Perry Farrell is gonna like blow up your cell phone
Speaker 1: and be like, hey, man, play on this kind of
Speaker 1: crappy band. I just started, Uh, so anyway, he makes
Speaker 1: this announcement that New Order has done, and of course
Speaker 1: the other guys in New Order are upset about this
Speaker 1: and they're like, no, we're not done, and it ends
Speaker 1: up becoming this this sort of like war of words
Speaker 1: between them, and I think, like Bernard Summer, do you
Speaker 1: like put out a statement essentially saying like no, like
Speaker 1: you're full of it, like we're still going to do
Speaker 1: our thing. Yeah. It was very much like the Pink
Speaker 1: Floyd situation where I was saying, like, you don't have
Speaker 1: the right to end this band. You can leave it
Speaker 1: and that's fine, you cannot work with me, but you
Speaker 1: can't just say that that we are not a band anymore,
Speaker 1: because we are. I think that was the argument of
Speaker 1: who had the right to actually like kill the band.
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like in Peter Hook's mind that
Speaker 1: he felt like it was obvious that they were done,
Speaker 1: and that's why he felt that he could make this
Speaker 1: statement publicly because things had evolved to such a point
Speaker 1: in the band where it didn't seem like anyone really
Speaker 1: wanted to work together. But I wonder if, like Sumner,
Speaker 1: and to a lesser extent, you know, Stephen Morris, and
Speaker 1: Jillian Gilbert saw an opening here where they're like, well,
Speaker 1: this guy left. He's the guy that is the loudest,
Speaker 1: the brashest guy, kind of like the Roger Waters figure,
Speaker 1: I guess, and he's leaving now maybe we can still
Speaker 1: hold on to this valuable brand name and and move forward. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Hook would say that the band had agreed to split
Speaker 1: up in February about seven, and he made the actual
Speaker 1: announcement that he made was pretty tame. He said, me
Speaker 1: and Bernard aren't working together anymore, which is you know,
Speaker 1: you can read that. Men know that what you will? Uh.
Speaker 1: So that when Bernard and the rest of the band
Speaker 1: released the is like, really, I rate press releases, saying,
Speaker 1: you know, what are you talking about? The band is
Speaker 1: still together. I guess he called Steven Morris and said,
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? We we discussed this. We're
Speaker 1: not a band anymore, and cording to Hook at least,
Speaker 1: Stephen said, oh, you know me, Hooky, whichever way the
Speaker 1: wind blows, meaning you know, whichever whoever is in charge,
Speaker 1: I'll listen to that guy. So it sounds like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like what you said, why would you let this incredibly
Speaker 1: potent brand name, uh go to waste. But the weird
Speaker 1: thing was they did for a number of years, right,
Speaker 1: New Order without Hook became Bad Lieutenant for a number
Speaker 1: of years, which I never really understood because it was
Speaker 1: basically New Order with Phil Cunningham and uh I think
Speaker 1: Blurs Alex James was on base for a while. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, to me, this just seems like, Okay, let's
Speaker 1: just give it a shot, let's see if we can
Speaker 1: do something else and if you know, maybe people will
Speaker 1: like it, which of course they're not going to like it,
Speaker 1: because you know, New Order at at this point, again,
Speaker 1: they're this valuable brand, their a legacy act. If you're
Speaker 1: going to go see them, you want to hear True Faith,
Speaker 1: You want to hear Bizarre Love Triangle, you want to
Speaker 1: hear your favorite hits. You don't want to hear Bernard
Speaker 1: Sumner and Stephen Morris jam and with a dude from Blur.
Speaker 1: You know, like it's not gonna work. And like that's
Speaker 1: why no one remembers Bad Lieutenant. No one has said
Speaker 1: the words bad Lieutenant in reference to Bernard Sumner until
Speaker 1: this podcast. It's been a decade since anyone even uttered
Speaker 1: that reference. So yeah, to me, it seems like a
Speaker 1: foreground conclusion that they were eventually going to try to
Speaker 1: figure out a way to do this band without Peter Hook,
Speaker 1: which is what happened. I guess that was like two
Speaker 1: thousand eleven or so. Yeah. Hook goes off to form
Speaker 1: The Light, which pretty much just is a Joy Division
Speaker 1: New Orders cover band. There they famously go out and
Speaker 1: play four albums front the Back, which was awesome because
Speaker 1: it stuff from Closer and never really been performed live,
Speaker 1: so that was really great to hear. And they put
Speaker 1: out live albums and EPs and stuff. I think they
Speaker 1: only did one EP of studio stuff and that was
Speaker 1: just joint Division covers. Uh and uh, I guess that
Speaker 1: really piste off Bernie. You know, these were the sacred
Speaker 1: Joy Division songs that weren't to be played live. And
Speaker 1: then Hook was asked about it and he said, oh bullshit.
Speaker 1: Bernard never liked playing the old songs. He thought Joy
Speaker 1: Division were depressing. Even if I asked him for permission,
Speaker 1: he would have told me to funk off anyway. So
Speaker 1: Hook is very sort of, you know, rebelliously playing these
Speaker 1: old songs. Meanwhile, New Order reforms with Phil Cunningham on base,
Speaker 1: and uh, Peter is not happy he puts out a
Speaker 1: statement on I Think It's my Space where he says
Speaker 1: he's surprised and sad. Everyone knows that New Order without
Speaker 1: Peter Hook is like Queen without Freddie Mercury or I
Speaker 1: don't know about that, you two without the Edge that
Speaker 1: I could see that actually. Uh yeah, he's very nice. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's fair. He's very hurt by this. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And but again, as we have seen in other examples,
Speaker 1: certainly with Pink Floyd, not so much with Talking Heads,
Speaker 1: I mean talking Heads without David Byrne, that doesn't really
Speaker 1: seem to work. But Pink Floyd without Roger Waters, they
Speaker 1: just rolled forward, and a New Order without Peter Hook,
Speaker 1: they rolled forward. They put out a record. Uh, I
Speaker 1: guess I was called Music Complete that actually did pretty well.
Speaker 1: And it seems like now in recent years, like Bernard
Speaker 1: Sumner has been more enthusiastic about touring because they've actually
Speaker 1: become like a pretty big festival band. So uh, which
Speaker 1: I'm sure on some level must have also been maddening
Speaker 1: to Peter Hook. Didn't he have a thing that like
Speaker 1: he was accusing the bass player in New Order of
Speaker 1: like miming his parts on stage? Oh yeah, he said that, like,
Speaker 1: if you listen to what's playing over the p A system,
Speaker 1: you'll see that, like his hands are down at the
Speaker 1: low end of the base. And then yeah, he accused
Speaker 1: him of that, and then I guess Bernie said something like,
Speaker 1: you know, no, Hook used to do that too, that's
Speaker 1: just the Semeth part. It's it's fine. Yeah. I thought
Speaker 1: that was rich coming from a guy who admitted to
Speaker 1: miming DJ sets. But but hey, but yeah, Hook said, yeah,
Speaker 1: you still hear my parts at concerts. I'm in the
Speaker 1: background like a ghost. This is quote. I think what
Speaker 1: really ends up pissing him off is the royalty situation
Speaker 1: in New Order, because this is always hard to talk
Speaker 1: about because you get into sort of the byzantine, uh
Speaker 1: you know, sideways and byways of like how music contracts work.
Speaker 1: But essentially, didn't New Order like start a new company
Speaker 1: without Peter Hook so that they could continue to tour
Speaker 1: and then like just bring Peter Hook's royalty rate down
Speaker 1: like to like a mini school degree. Yeah, it sounds
Speaker 1: like Hook was entitled to the same royalty rate that
Speaker 1: he would get for all the New Order songs that
Speaker 1: he'd contributed two years before. But they formed a new
Speaker 1: company for all the new stuff going forward without him,
Speaker 1: and they still cut it in I think for one
Speaker 1: point to five percent, which is you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know much about any of the stuff, but
Speaker 1: it seems pretty generous to give him money for stuff
Speaker 1: he's not even writing or playing on. But Hook made
Speaker 1: it seem like they went behind my back and cut
Speaker 1: me out of this band and formed a company. I
Speaker 1: think his lawyer used the analogy of it's like if
Speaker 1: if Paul and George got together and and I decided
Speaker 1: to form a new company and not tell John like
Speaker 1: that was how he put it, and he took him
Speaker 1: the court. Yeah, they ended up making this settlement I
Speaker 1: guess in seventeen, and of course the details were not
Speaker 1: made public, as they never are in these situations. But
Speaker 1: it seems like, well Peter Hook might have gotten, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, a measure of financial satisfaction. He's like more
Speaker 1: aggrieved than ever. Like I read this interview that he did.
Speaker 1: I think this was like like nineteen like not that
Speaker 1: long ago, where he was just talking about how it
Speaker 1: was unforgivable, like what Bernard Sumner did to him, that
Speaker 1: he feels like essentially this band that he helped to
Speaker 1: start was taken away from him. He doesn't have anything
Speaker 1: to do with their legacy anymore, and he feels betrayed.
Speaker 1: His quote was to start a band in nineteen eighty
Speaker 1: from the ashes of your lead singer suicide and then
Speaker 1: have it cruelly taken off you thirty one years later.
Speaker 1: But the other members of the band, I defy any
Speaker 1: human being not to bary grudge. If it wasn't for
Speaker 1: the wife, I'd probably be in prison right now. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's you can't argue with much of that. And he
Speaker 1: he has a lot to vent, and he he vents
Speaker 1: over the course of three memoirs to the tune of
Speaker 1: fifteen hundred pages. Uh So I guess that that's his
Speaker 1: only real legal recourse. And it seems like that is
Speaker 1: where we are right now. That like Hook feels again
Speaker 1: portrayed and Sumner and I guess maybe Stephen Morrison, Jullian
Speaker 1: Gilbert is a fair to say that they're probably just
Speaker 1: feeling relieved that they don't have to do with Peter
Speaker 1: Hook anymore. Yeah, it sounds like that. I think Bernie
Speaker 1: said in interviews that, you know, being in a band
Speaker 1: with Peter Hook was not exactly a picnic. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it seems like that they're probably relieved that that that
Speaker 1: Firecrackers out of the picture. Yeah, and as much as
Speaker 1: I love Peter Hook, I have to agree that, yes,
Speaker 1: it would not be a picnic to be in a
Speaker 1: band with him. And they recently did attributes to Ian
Speaker 1: Curtis for the anniversary of his death, and they couldn't
Speaker 1: even come together for that. They had two separate attributes
Speaker 1: with newly reformed New Order and on one side and
Speaker 1: Peter Hook and The Light on the other. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I guess at this point, not even Ian Curtis cannot
Speaker 1: bring these guys together, which is like a very unfortunate thing.
Speaker 1: But like I said at the top, I feel like
Speaker 1: a lot of the rivalries that we've talked about have
Speaker 1: somewhat resolved themselves, usually by the end of our episode.
Speaker 1: But the hatred here between these two guys just seems
Speaker 1: like as white hot as it's ever been. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't think this has gone away anytime soon. We're gonna
Speaker 1: take a quick break and get a word from our
Speaker 1: sponsor before we get two more rivals. Well we know,
Speaker 1: which is part of the episode where we give the
Speaker 1: pro side of each part of the Revelry. I guess
Speaker 1: we'll do the Peter Hook side first. Yeah. Again, for me,
Speaker 1: like I said, I'm a Peter Hook fan, I'm biased
Speaker 1: in his regard. I think he's a pretty hilarious guy,
Speaker 1: even though I think it's pretty clear that he's a
Speaker 1: difficult personality. But again, like for me, I just think
Speaker 1: his bass sound is like such a distinctive part of
Speaker 1: this band, and he's a complete original. To me, I
Speaker 1: think if you take him out of the musical mix
Speaker 1: of this band, they would have maybe been more of
Speaker 1: like a conventional synth pop band. But because he was
Speaker 1: in there, he was able to give maybe that rock
Speaker 1: edge to what they were doing, and it just made
Speaker 1: them more unique and I think ultimately more influential. Oh yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: I think that he's playing as the hallmark of that band.
Speaker 1: He's one of my bass playing heroes. I mean yeah,
Speaker 1: I think he invented the premise of a lead baseline.
Speaker 1: I mean it's not only the heartbeat of the song,
Speaker 1: but it's the melody and just as a one of
Speaker 1: rock's great rack on tourism personalities, I think he's up
Speaker 1: there with the Gallaghers and David Crosby, which, again, as
Speaker 1: much as that makes him entertaining to watch and read, uh,
Speaker 1: probably makes him a nightmare to actually be in a
Speaker 1: band with. So if you go to the pro Sumner side,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's fair to say that his
Speaker 1: instinct to push the band forward, like away from punk
Speaker 1: and more toward of like a like a danceable pop sound,
Speaker 1: it seems like that instinct was pretty spot on. I mean,
Speaker 1: like that is what made New Order so huge, and
Speaker 1: I think ultimately like important, I mean, to be fair,
Speaker 1: like his assessment that being in the band with Peter
Speaker 1: Hook is no picnic as we've said, I mean, I
Speaker 1: think he's probably right, Like it was very difficult to
Speaker 1: be with this guy, especially again like where he was
Speaker 1: wanting them to maybe stay more in the past while
Speaker 1: Peter Hook was pushing them forward. So yeah, as much
Speaker 1: as I love Peter Hook, I'd want to hang out
Speaker 1: with Peter Hook, I think more than anyone anyone else
Speaker 1: in the band. In a way, I feel like, well,
Speaker 1: it makes sense that that Bernard Sumner ultimately is the
Speaker 1: leader of this group. Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean I
Speaker 1: think he was. He was the innovator. I think he
Speaker 1: found a way forward that was definitely unique, but without
Speaker 1: alienating fans of of what had come before. And Joy
Speaker 1: Division and We he said earlier, it just seems like
Speaker 1: genuinely a good guy. And like his memoir he talks
Speaker 1: a lot about like wanting to keep balanced family life
Speaker 1: with professional life. I don't know, he seems like the
Speaker 1: most sane member of the group. I would say too,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't have Peter Hook's pension for drama. So
Speaker 1: if you look at these two guys together, I mean,
Speaker 1: I'll just repeat what I said at the top. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is the power center of two of the greatest
Speaker 1: post punk bands of all time, Joy Division and New Order. Like,
Speaker 1: if you're writing the history of alternative and indie music,
Speaker 1: you have to write a lot about those two bands,
Speaker 1: and like, these two guys were at the center of
Speaker 1: both of them. And you know, when they're on their own,
Speaker 1: you end up with groups like Electronic and Revenge and
Speaker 1: The Lights and Bad Lieutenant, you know, which are not
Speaker 1: groups that anyone cares about. But you put these guys
Speaker 1: together and you end up with real magic. So for
Speaker 1: all of the white hot hatred that still exists between
Speaker 1: these two fellas together, they're just better than they are
Speaker 1: when they're apart. Yeah, I mean, Hook said that himself
Speaker 1: a couple of years back in the interview, said, I've
Speaker 1: come to the conclusion that it's chemistry that makes you
Speaker 1: write great music is the chemistry that will tear you apart.
Speaker 1: It's like a relationship. The bit that attracts you is
Speaker 1: the bit that will drive you apart after a while.
Speaker 1: And I've come to the conclusion that people who write
Speaker 1: great music together should not play it. They should give
Speaker 1: it to somebody else to play. And uh, yeah, kind
Speaker 1: of what's happening now, I guess yeah, I think he's right,
Speaker 1: But again, it's never gonna happen. I cannot imagine a
Speaker 1: situation where these two guys will ever play music together.
Speaker 1: Absolutely not, which is which is sad. This is probably,
Speaker 1: i'd say, maybe up there with talking heads in terms of,
Speaker 1: you know, pigs fly kind of likelihood. Well, Jordan, I
Speaker 1: hope that love will never tear us apart or hatred
Speaker 1: or whatever the case may be, because we have so
Speaker 1: many more rivalries and beefs and feuds to talk about
Speaker 1: on this show. So hopefully that won't happen because we
Speaker 1: have just so much more to talk about on this show,
Speaker 1: So next week join us again for more beefs and
Speaker 1: feuds and long super resentments here on Rivals So Long.
Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. The executive
Speaker 1: producers are Shawn Tytone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers
Speaker 1: are Taylor Chicoin and Tristan McNeil. The producer is Joel
Speaker 1: hat Staff. I'm Jordan's Run Talk and I'm Stephen Hyden.
Speaker 1: If you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave
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