WEBVTT - Joy Divisions: Bernard Sumner vs. Peter Hook 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:14.880 Rivals as a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone, 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.480 and welcome to Rivals, the show about music beefs and 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:21.799 feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:23.960 I'm Jordan, and today we're going to discuss the ongoing 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:27.200 battle between Peter Hook and Bernard Sumner, whose feud not 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:29.760 only split New Order on several occasions, but also ran 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:32.519 through their prior band Joy Division. Yeah. You know, we 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.640 talk a lot about like rivalries within bands in this show, 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:38.920 but in this episode we're not talking about just one, 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:42.199 but two crucial post punk bands. It would be like 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.080 if John Lennon and Paul McCartney left the Beatles together 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:47.960 and then they formed an even more successful band after that, 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.559 which I guess makes Stephen Morris like the ringo in 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:55.760 this scenario, I guess. But after working so closely together 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:58.040 for the better part of thirty years, these guys came 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:00.880 to hate each other with a passion and dead is extreme. 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:03.320 I mean, even for this show. I mean, like, in 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:05.440 the history of Rivals, I think it's possible that no 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:09.160 beef has been quite as intense as this one. Would 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:12.200 you say, yeah, this is white hot? Yeah? Oh yeah, absolutely, 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:13.960 this is a blood feude. He's taken this one of 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:17.119 the grave, Peter Hook is, so without further ado, let's 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:22.280 get into this mess. That's with some of the best 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:24.959 of these feuds. It starts in childhood. Peter Hook and 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:27.360 Bernard some of their first cross paths as grammar school 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.440 students in Salford, England, and they were drawn together, not 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:33.120 really by music, but by their love of scooters, which 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:35.160 I didn't realize, but it actually played a role in 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:39.240 their first falling out. According to Peter Hook's hilarious and 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:42.600 vindictive memoir Unknown Pleasures, and I would like to say 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:45.760 writer Peter has written probably fifteen hundred pages over the 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.760 course of three books, just slagging off Bernard Sumner for 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:52.920 most of this, and uh, it's it's pretty amazing. Highly 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:55.320 recommend all three of his books. But between hundred words 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:58.400 words is still not enough. You know, He's given us 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.880 so much and I'm still hung me for more. Oh 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:03.240 it's so good. But in Unknown Pleasures, the first of 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:05.600 his three memoirs, he talks about how he and Bernie 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:07.520 were on a scooter trip in southern France and one 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:09.640 of their friends their scooter broke down and so they 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:11.480 needed to pull some money to get the guy scooter 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:15.000 fix to get back home, and Hookie writes, let's just 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.119 say when it came to helping out, Barney wasn't very helpful. 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:20.160 After that, I couldn't really look at him the same 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:24.120 way from then on. They were ruined after that. You know, 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:27.400 it's hilarious to me this like scooter incident is like 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:30.760 the inciting incident in their whole relationship. And I love 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:32.480 that when the book he refers to him as Barney 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:34.800 because I guess he just hates the nickname Barney, so 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:37.320 all through the book he only refers to him as Barney. 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:39.440 That that's the level of petty we're dealing with for 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:41.960 the rest of this episode, So you know, like buckle up. Yeah, 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:45.040 I'm just gonna say that, like from the outset that 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:47.840 I have a strong bias in favor of Peter Hook. 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:50.639 I think he's hilarious. I love seeing interviews with him, 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:52.399 and I have to say that too, as a musician, 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:57.080 his bass playing is to me like the distinctive sound 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:00.239 of certainly New Order and maybe even Joy Division, guess, 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:03.480 along with Ian Curtis's voice. Of course. I mean, whenever 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:05.760 I think about people ripping off new order. I just 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:08.799 think of that, you know, very trebly melodic basse that 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:12.480 Peter Hook brings to the table. So yeah, I'm gonna 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:14.600 be stumping for him, even though I think, as we'll 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:17.200 see as this episode unfold, he could also be a 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:19.360 major pain in the butt, right. I mean, he kind 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.840 of has David Crosby syndrome where he's he's hilarious and 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:25.600 so charismatic and in interviews he's just a quote machine 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:28.480 and he's so self deprecating that it almost like it 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:30.880 sort of masks the fact that he's kind of a 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:33.000 dick and has been throughout this story. But you love 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:37.119 him anyway, absolutely. So. The real big bang of Joy 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:41.000 Division is on June four six, when both Uh, Bernie 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.040 and Hookey attend the Sex Pistols Legendary gig at the 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:46.640 Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall, which is sort of, like 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:50.040 been mythologizes, like the big bang of the Manchester Music Seed. 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:52.800 It inspired so many teens and tweens to start bands, 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:55.080 and Hook and some of there were among them, I guess. 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:57.720 The next day, Peter Hook borrowed money from his mom 0:03:57.760 --> 0:03:59.520 to buy a bass and and they were off. He 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:02.040 and Bernie got together as a duo and placed an 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:04.920 ad in a local music paper, which got in Curtis 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:08.520 into the mix. And then uh, drummer Stephen Morris came later. 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:10.280 But I love. Have you heard the story of their 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:12.840 first drummer. No, I don't think I have. Oh it's 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:15.640 so good. He was this like London punk guy. I 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:17.400 think his name was Steve brother Dale, and he was 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:20.200 in a band called Panic, and he was like proper 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:24.440 hard London punk, like scary dude, and it wasn't really jailing, 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:26.000 it wasn't really working, but they were too afraid to 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:28.760 fire him. So they were driving their like band van 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:31.600 home and they pulled over and said, oh, man, Steve, 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:33.279 can you get out. I think we got a flat tire? 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:34.760 Can you go check it out? So he gets out 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:36.560 of the van and looks a tire and they just 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:39.400 speed off in the even there, And I guess that 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:41.320 was how they fired this guy, because they were too 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:44.320 afraid to do it any other way. So they eventually 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:48.320 got Steven Morris, who is significantly less intimidating I would imagine, 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:51.839 into the band, and um, they consider several band names. 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:55.159 My favorite was Stiff Kittens, but they eventually went with 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:57.960 Warsaw after the David Bowie song on Low or Sawa 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:00.479 and Um, and they were playing together, know that, and 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:02.719 for a while, I think a couple of months when 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:04.800 they learned that there was a London man called the 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:06.960 Warsaw Pack. So it was like you know the spinal 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.400 tap Originals New Originals thing. They had to get a 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.400 new name, and so to avoid confusion with this other band, 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:15.560 Warsaw Pact, they chose the name Joy Division, which is 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:18.440 not a very uplifting name. It is the name for 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:21.880 the sexual slavery wing of the Nazi concentration camp, so 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:24.640 not a very uplifting It's not a uplifting name if 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:26.360 you know the origin story. But I have to say 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:27.960 that I think it's like one of the best band 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:33.120 names in rock history, especially because of the irony when 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:36.280 you know what they sound like. It's like there's not 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:42.080 much joy in Joy Division, but it's but like people 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:44.640 have talked about this, like the Great Music. British music 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:46.880 journalist Paul Morley has said that like when you heard 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:49.279 the name Joy Division, it just seemed like a band 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.320 that you had already loved for ten years. You know, 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:55.039 there was just something instantly iconic about that, and I 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:58.200 think it rolls into the first Joy Division record, which 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:02.839 of course is Unknown Pleasures out in nine, a brilliant record, 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:05.760 I think, one of the best debut albums ever made. 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.200 I think if you listen to any post punk band 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:10.800 that has come out in the past forty years, they 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:13.280 are in some way ripping off that record. I mean, 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.440 it's just been incredibly influential. Although in a way, I 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.200 feel like the album cover at this point is more 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.679 famous than the album itself, Like, especially as a T shirt, 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:25.400 you see it everywhere and oh yeah. I think the 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:27.560 album cover, along with the band name, it just added 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:30.880 to this sense of people hearing this band, seeing this band, 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:33.800 and feeling like, wow, they're already this kind of fully 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.520 formed entity that has like a perfect sound and a 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:40.880 complete aesthetic, like right out of the gate um. The 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:42.920 thing about that first record is that they made it 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:45.159 pretty quickly. I think it was over the course of 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.000 three weekends that they were able to you know, bash 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:50.600 those tracks out, and you know, in subsequent years, Peter 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.520 Hook would always complain about how long it would take 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:56.200 New Order to make albums. I think like by the 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:58.400 time they get to like Waiting for the Sirens Call 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:01.200 that record took like three years to make, you know, 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:05.240 versus three weekends for Unknown Pleasures. And I think because 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:08.400 they work so quickly, Peter Hook and Bernard Sumner, they 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.200 didn't really have time to beef at that time. You know, 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:13.440 they were young, they were hungry, they were learning how 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:17.320 to make records. It really wasn't until closer the second 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:20.120 Joint Division record, and of course the last which came 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:23.920 out in shortly after Ian Curtis's death, that you started 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:27.240 to see some conflicts and it really becomes, I think, 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:29.920 the core conflicts that are going to haunt these guys 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:32.680 for the rest of their partnership. It really kind of 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:36.720 comes down to two things. Like one is musical differences 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.000 that I think, especially as we get a new order, 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.960 Bernard Sumner is going to be pulling them away from 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:45.560 being a straightforward rock band, whereas Peter Hook is going 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:49.440 to want to stay in that camp. So that's a problem. 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:52.640 The second problem, which I think we've already seen, is 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:56.440 that these guys have different personalities. Bernard Sumner seems like 0:07:56.440 --> 0:08:01.640 a pretty quiet, introspective, I think, relatively nice guy. I mean, 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:04.400 it seems like he's pretty polite and would be nice 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:09.560 to know, whereas Peter Hook is this loudmouth, brash, hilarious 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:12.840 but maybe difficult person to deal with, and it just 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:15.680 seems like that was already coming into play. Like I mean, 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:17.080 have you heard that story about like how they were 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:21.520 two essentially opposing camps in this band like Enjoy Division, 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:24.040 Like while they were making Closer. Yeah, their manager invented 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:26.720 him to apartments and Hook was in one and he 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:29.880 headed up sort of a loud bastard brigade, and Bernie 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:31.680 was in the other with Ian Sumner and sort of 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:34.040 the more quiet the cultural flat they sort of like 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:37.880 called themselves. So of course Hooks team loved to just 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:41.040 tool on the cultural flat, you know, did their hearts content. 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:43.520 I mean, there were all these stories about like you know, 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:47.400 Hook taking like and Curtis's girlfriends like panties and stuff 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:49.560 and like you know, like stringing them up like things 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:51.599 like that, like real like summer camps, dount. Yeah, and 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:53.160 these guys were young at the time. I mean I 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:56.800 think they were only what like exactly, so they were 0:08:57.600 --> 0:08:59.760 like the age of college kids, and like Peter Hook 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:02.720 was acting like a college kid, but Bernard Sumner was 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:05.960 already you know, not into that sort of thing, and 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:08.920 and Ian Curtis was also in that camp, and it 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:13.040 feels like, you know, for Bernard Sumner maybe already at 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.040 this point he was thinking that, you know, like I'm 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:18.440 the serious guy, Like I'm the one who maybe has 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:22.040 like a better idea of like the big picture creative 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:24.320 direction that we're going to go in. And Peter Hook, 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:26.520 you know, yeah, he's a good bass player, but he's 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:29.160 sort of a buffoon, you know, So I've got to 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:32.360 deal with this guy, you know, and and try to 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:34.480 have patience with him. Whereas I think Peter Hook from 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:37.360 his perspective, he's looking at Bernard Sumner as what, like 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:39.480 I guess being like kill joy in a way, or 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:41.880 like not being a person who's going to embrace being 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:45.080 in a successful rock band and is going to kind 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:47.600 of pull them away from the rock and roll path 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:50.160 towards you know, maybe more of like a sterile sound 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:51.839 at least in his mind. Yeah, it was got the 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.400 idea that that Hook always looked at Bernie and thinking 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:56.440 like why are you here? Like why are you why 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:58.200 do you want to be in a rock band? Like 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:00.320 what is this? Like? You know, And this comes up 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:03.079 again and again on like later years, when Bernard doesn't 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:05.000 want to tour and things like that, Hooks just kind 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:07.040 of like, well, what what did you get in this for? 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.400 What did you think this was all about? Like getting 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.000 out and play? I know I often wondered what what 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:14.400 Bernie's relationship with An was like, because I mean you 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:16.000 read about it in books and stuff. But of course 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:18.480 after N's death, he was just sort of you know, 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:23.520 sanctified and uh. Yeah. I often wondered if if Bernie 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:25.840 sort of the weird power dynamic that to have the Hook, 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:27.800 if he felt that in any way within two before 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:31.120 he died. Yeah. I mean again, like you said, it's 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:34.160 so hard to analyze that stuff because one joy division 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:37.439 wasn't together very long and to like, Ian Curtis has 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:41.440 been this saintly figure for so long, I mean much 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:44.720 longer than he was alive, and it's hard to talk 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:47.520 about him as being a human being. I mean, It's 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:50.760 one thing that's interesting with Ian Curtis in the you know, 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.520 the Sumner Hook dynamic, is that I know, all this 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:56.360 Hook has talked about how he felt like Ian Curtis 0:10:56.559 --> 0:11:00.200 kept uh, sort of a rap on any tensions might 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:02.959 have existed between them. That like when Ian Curtis was 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:06.240 around like he was the in question leader. It seems like, Yeah, 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:08.800 and then when when Ian died, In died on May 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:12.240 eighteenth night, on the eve of the band's first US tour, 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.439 and he died by suicide attributed to depression and worsening 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:18.480 epilepsy and just collapsing marriage. And yeah, like you said, 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:20.000 there's been a lot of speculation on whether or not 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:22.920 the group would have been slightly less tumultuous than New Order. 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:25.120 You know, if if if Ian had lived, he would 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:26.520 have sort of been able, there wouldn't have been that 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.440 power vacuum that that hook and Bernie sort of rushed 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:32.240 in to try to fill over the next you know, decade, 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:34.839 twenty years. Yeah, what's striking to me is that, you know, 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:38.720 Ian Curtisy dies right before they put out Closer, and 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:41.679 I guess they had played some of those Closer songs 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:44.240 before the album came out, Like if you listen to 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:48.520 that Postumus record still where there's like a bunch of 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:52.400 live performances on there, they're playing songs like Atrocity, Exhibition 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:56.319 and Isolation and and other songs that were on Closer, 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.360 but they never toured behind it, and it just seems like, 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:01.360 you know, Ian just died. They were going to do 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:04.360 an American tour. Obviously that wasn't gonna happen now, and 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.640 it's like they just had to close the door I'm 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:09.600 closer and become this new band, and I just wonder, 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:13.040 you know, it seems like it's some ways maybe Ian 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:16.720 Curtis exhibited some control over those guys even after he died, 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:20.000 because they had to focus on just carrying on and 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.559 and in a way sort of burying their grief, and 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:24.520 that was such an elephant in the room for so 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:27.000 long that maybe they didn't have time to really go 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:29.400 after each other in the early years of New Order 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:31.880 until they became successful. Then of course it all starts 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:34.200 to go to hell. Yeah, it's crazy to think. I mean, 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:36.160 I feel like every psychologist now would say this is 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:38.559 what you don't do. But as they started writing New 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:41.440 Orders songs like you know a week after Ian Curtis's 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:43.920 death inquest things like that. I think Peter Hooks said 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:45.600 in this book that he wrote the baseline of dreams 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:49.760 never end like you know barely like days after the funeral. Uh, 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:51.839 and the band's first single, Ceremony was one of the 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:54.920 last joy Division songs was composed by Ian Curtis. He 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.360 wrote the lyrics, and uh yeah, I I felt that 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:01.240 they they really had an awkward relationship with their legacy. 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.199 I think Hook was more apt to be the one 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:06.040 to want to play Joy Division songs in early New Order, 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.440 whereas Bernie he kind of took the Paul McCartney and 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:10.800 Wings approach and said, you know what, no, I'm doing 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.320 this now that we're gonna start completely fresh. And I 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:15.360 think there was some tension between them for that off 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:16.959 the bat too, so it really started them off on 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:21.680 the wrong foot, just regardless of all their past relationship issues. Yeah, 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:24.000 it's interesting when you hear like early New Order songs 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:28.560 because it really does sound like Joy Division, or maybe 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:31.760 a more danceable version of Joy Division, like you can 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:34.480 easily imagine Ian Curtis singing on a lot of the 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.719 songs on the first New Order album, Movement, which came 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:40.640 out in one But I think pretty soon after that, 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:43.400 as they start to evolve, you can hear the differences 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.520 between those groups. It seems like it becomes pretty pronounced 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.360 fairly quickly. Yeah, and like you said, the sonic differences 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:51.600 in addition to all the personality class was a really 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:55.560 driving Hook and some of there apart. Uh and Hook 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:57.920 writes in his book, you know, this was around the 0:13:57.920 --> 0:13:59.520 time when we started having to spend all this time 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:03.160 programming sequencers and sympthson stuff, and it was boring. He said, 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:05.319 why can't we just fucking play. We're a band, We've 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:08.520 written hundreds of fantastic songs. Can't we just play? The 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.760 other guys were busy reinventing pop. Me I liked pop 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:13.800 just find the way it was. I think that sums 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:16.760 it up. And they have these musical differences going on, 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:20.080 and of course there's also the personality clashes happening. And 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:23.760 I wonder like if it ultimately came down to Peter 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:27.200 Hook wanting to be a rock star and Bernie not 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:31.400 really feeling that or feeling some ambivalence about that, because 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:34.720 it seems like, you know, New Order not touring becomes 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:38.080 a recurring problem that becomes more pronounced as the band 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:40.560 progresses that like Peter Hook wants to be this guy 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:43.360 on the road, he wants to be partying in hotel rooms, 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:46.160 he wants to be doing below with groupies, living the 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.760 whole life, and Sumner really doesn't. And you know, he 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:51.360 writes in his book Chapter and Verse, which is a 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.400 fair to say that he only wrote that because Peter 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:59.000 Hook wrote like words other musical legacy. He felt like 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:01.040 he had to respond, I did the fit in himself. 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:02.640 And then Hook went and so I think you went 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:04.960 in Billboard and basically did like a point by point 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.040 rebuttal of Bernie's book after that too, It's like Peter Hook, 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:09.960 so yeah, it was basically a big defense book. Peter 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.320 Hook couldn't even let Sumner have his book. It's like, no, 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:15.360 I've already written, I've written words, but I've ben to 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:19.280 write even more words and Billboard to further refute like 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:21.680 what Sumner is saying. But like one of the things 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:24.360 he writes about Sumner in his book Chapter in Versus, 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:26.400 just this idea that like he felt that there was 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.200 a delineation between his public and private life and that 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:31.440 he wanted to have a private life away from the 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.440 band and you know, just kind of live a quiet, 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:37.440 you know, sort of family existence, I think. And then yeah, 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:41.239 Peter Hook, who was just I think feeling increasingly frustrated 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:42.840 that he can't just be on the road all the 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:45.040 time and and and being this like, you know, conquering 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:47.000 rock band. Yeah, I think he thought he's being like 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:49.520 told what to do by the weakest will member of 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:51.400 the group, and he I think in his own book 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.760 he even talks about how Bernie got the lead vocal 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:56.400 part because initially, when they first were recording the first 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:59.480 couple of New Orders songs, I guess Stephen Hook and 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:02.720 Bernie all recorded just the vocal lines together and it 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:04.560 was just gonna be a blend the ball three singing. 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:06.400 And then Bernie said, wait, wait, wait, I want to 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.080 I want to try it again, so they wiped all 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.240 the tracks and then they ended up just leaving his 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:13.280 voice on there. So he basically by just default got 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.240 the lead singer part. And then later on is this 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:18.160 we'll see this again and again he's just sort of 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:20.440 like he took on the perspective of like, well, I'm 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:22.400 the lead singer. You can't really get rid of me. 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.160 Everybody else's is dispensable. And this would come up when 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:27.880 they would do their their side projects later on, who 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:30.640 kind of felt like, well, no, we're a band, we're not. 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:34.400 But you know, lead singer syndrome. It's a classic classic problem. 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:36.240 I mean, there is this weird thing with Peter Hook, 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:40.000 where like you said, he describes Sumner as being the 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:42.240 weakest wild member of the band, and yet in the 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:44.880 same breath he'll talk about him being this prima donna 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:49.200 who is insisting on everything going his way. In one 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:51.800 of his books, I think it's the New Order book Substance, 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:54.320 he talks about how like at some point in the 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:57.360 mid eighties, Sumner would never show up to anything on time. 0:16:57.920 --> 0:16:59.880 That became his big power move to show that he 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:02.200 was the one in charge. So there is this weird 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.960 thing where Hook is complaining that like something as taking 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:07.960 all the control, but then also feeling like, well, he's 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:11.119 also not the best leader. You know, there's sort of 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.520 like a willful uh sort of giving up a responsibility 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:16.200 in a way by Peter Hook, I feel like in 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.240 these situations, yeah, I mean, speaking of lack of leadership, 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:21.879 I just want to point out that New Order is 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.119 probably famously one of the like, you know, most ripped 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.040 off bands financially of all time. Like they're just a 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:31.480 gigantic money pit. I mean. The most famous example involves 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:35.360 their their song Blue Monday, which had this elaborate UH 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:37.880 cover for the twelve inch sleeve. I think by Peter 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:41.240 Saville and somehow the finances of it worked out that 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:44.840 for every copy sold, the band lost five pence and 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:47.479 it became the best selling twelve inch single ever. So 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:50.800 the band lost all this money on their biggest hit 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:54.280 just and then of course they also go into the Hacienda, 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:57.280 the Hacienda club in Manchester, which was just a gigantic 0:17:57.320 --> 0:17:59.480 money pit. I think at one point was losing ten 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:02.400 thou hounds a week and so all they're touring revenue 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:04.840 just went to paying off that debt. So in addition 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:07.399 to you know, personality clashes musical differences, they also have 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:10.600 this massive financial train going on too at this time. Yeah, 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:13.919 just snatching defeat from the jaws of victory over and 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.600 over again. I feel like with with with New Order, Yeah, 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:18.960 it's insane to me, like the Hacienda, that they would 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:23.680 essentially be making records in order to fund a nightclub 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:26.159 and I guess also their record label. But you know, 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:28.159 we're going to see this as this episode unfolds, like 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:30.440 now Order is like becoming this big band and yet 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.720 they can't fully enjoy the spoils of their success because 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:36.480 they're paying for a nightclub, which again just seems insane 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.760 to me, like, like what a terrible investment, Like why 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.840 would you just cut your losses at some point? I mean, 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.480 that would be the smart business thing to do. But clearly, 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:47.919 you know, and we could talk about the Hacienda an 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:50.920 entirely different episode. I mean, if you haven't seen twenty 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:53.159 four Hour Party People, which if I don't know what 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:55.160 you're doing, listen to this episode. If you haven't seen 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:57.280 that movie, I mean, come on, you pause and put 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:01.359 that exactly. They talk about that nightclub, uh in that film, 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:04.360 I think being like an idea as much as a business, 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:06.919 Like there was just something sort of utopian maybe about 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:10.840