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Speaker 1: Rivals as a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to Rivals, the show about music beefs and

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Speaker 1: feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and

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Speaker 1: I'm Jordan, and today we're going to discuss the ongoing

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Speaker 1: battle between Peter Hook and Bernard Sumner, whose feud not

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Speaker 1: only split New Order on several occasions, but also ran

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Speaker 1: through their prior band Joy Division. Yeah. You know, we

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Speaker 1: talk a lot about like rivalries within bands in this show,

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Speaker 1: but in this episode we're not talking about just one,

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Speaker 1: but two crucial post punk bands. It would be like

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Speaker 1: if John Lennon and Paul McCartney left the Beatles together

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Speaker 1: and then they formed an even more successful band after that,

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Speaker 1: which I guess makes Stephen Morris like the ringo in

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Speaker 1: this scenario, I guess. But after working so closely together

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Speaker 1: for the better part of thirty years, these guys came

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Speaker 1: to hate each other with a passion and dead is extreme.

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Speaker 1: I mean, even for this show. I mean, like, in

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Speaker 1: the history of Rivals, I think it's possible that no

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Speaker 1: beef has been quite as intense as this one. Would

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Speaker 1: you say, yeah, this is white hot? Yeah? Oh yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: this is a blood feude. He's taken this one of

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Speaker 1: the grave, Peter Hook is, so without further ado, let's

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Speaker 1: get into this mess. That's with some of the best

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Speaker 1: of these feuds. It starts in childhood. Peter Hook and

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Speaker 1: Bernard some of their first cross paths as grammar school

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Speaker 1: students in Salford, England, and they were drawn together, not

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Speaker 1: really by music, but by their love of scooters, which

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize, but it actually played a role in

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Speaker 1: their first falling out. According to Peter Hook's hilarious and

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Speaker 1: vindictive memoir Unknown Pleasures, and I would like to say

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Speaker 1: writer Peter has written probably fifteen hundred pages over the

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Speaker 1: course of three books, just slagging off Bernard Sumner for

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Speaker 1: most of this, and uh, it's it's pretty amazing. Highly

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Speaker 1: recommend all three of his books. But between hundred words

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Speaker 1: words is still not enough. You know, He's given us

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Speaker 1: so much and I'm still hung me for more. Oh

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Speaker 1: it's so good. But in Unknown Pleasures, the first of

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Speaker 1: his three memoirs, he talks about how he and Bernie

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Speaker 1: were on a scooter trip in southern France and one

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Speaker 1: of their friends their scooter broke down and so they

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Speaker 1: needed to pull some money to get the guy scooter

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Speaker 1: fix to get back home, and Hookie writes, let's just

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Speaker 1: say when it came to helping out, Barney wasn't very helpful.

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Speaker 1: After that, I couldn't really look at him the same

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Speaker 1: way from then on. They were ruined after that. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's hilarious to me this like scooter incident is like

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Speaker 1: the inciting incident in their whole relationship. And I love

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Speaker 1: that when the book he refers to him as Barney

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Speaker 1: because I guess he just hates the nickname Barney, so

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Speaker 1: all through the book he only refers to him as Barney.

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Speaker 1: That that's the level of petty we're dealing with for

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Speaker 1: the rest of this episode, So you know, like buckle up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say that, like from the outset that

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Speaker 1: I have a strong bias in favor of Peter Hook.

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Speaker 1: I think he's hilarious. I love seeing interviews with him,

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Speaker 1: and I have to say that too, as a musician,

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Speaker 1: his bass playing is to me like the distinctive sound

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Speaker 1: of certainly New Order and maybe even Joy Division, guess,

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Speaker 1: along with Ian Curtis's voice. Of course. I mean, whenever

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Speaker 1: I think about people ripping off new order. I just

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Speaker 1: think of that, you know, very trebly melodic basse that

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Speaker 1: Peter Hook brings to the table. So yeah, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: be stumping for him, even though I think, as we'll

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Speaker 1: see as this episode unfold, he could also be a

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Speaker 1: major pain in the butt, right. I mean, he kind

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Speaker 1: of has David Crosby syndrome where he's he's hilarious and

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Speaker 1: so charismatic and in interviews he's just a quote machine

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Speaker 1: and he's so self deprecating that it almost like it

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Speaker 1: sort of masks the fact that he's kind of a

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Speaker 1: dick and has been throughout this story. But you love

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Speaker 1: him anyway, absolutely. So. The real big bang of Joy

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Speaker 1: Division is on June four six, when both Uh, Bernie

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Speaker 1: and Hookey attend the Sex Pistols Legendary gig at the

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Speaker 1: Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall, which is sort of, like

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Speaker 1: been mythologizes, like the big bang of the Manchester Music Seed.

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Speaker 1: It inspired so many teens and tweens to start bands,

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Speaker 1: and Hook and some of there were among them, I guess.

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Speaker 1: The next day, Peter Hook borrowed money from his mom

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Speaker 1: to buy a bass and and they were off. He

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Speaker 1: and Bernie got together as a duo and placed an

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Speaker 1: ad in a local music paper, which got in Curtis

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Speaker 1: into the mix. And then uh, drummer Stephen Morris came later.

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Speaker 1: But I love. Have you heard the story of their

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Speaker 1: first drummer. No, I don't think I have. Oh it's

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Speaker 1: so good. He was this like London punk guy. I

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Speaker 1: think his name was Steve brother Dale, and he was

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Speaker 1: in a band called Panic, and he was like proper

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Speaker 1: hard London punk, like scary dude, and it wasn't really jailing,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't really working, but they were too afraid to

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Speaker 1: fire him. So they were driving their like band van

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Speaker 1: home and they pulled over and said, oh, man, Steve,

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Speaker 1: can you get out. I think we got a flat tire?

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Speaker 1: Can you go check it out? So he gets out

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Speaker 1: of the van and looks a tire and they just

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Speaker 1: speed off in the even there, And I guess that

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Speaker 1: was how they fired this guy, because they were too

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Speaker 1: afraid to do it any other way. So they eventually

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Speaker 1: got Steven Morris, who is significantly less intimidating I would imagine,

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Speaker 1: into the band, and um, they consider several band names.

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Speaker 1: My favorite was Stiff Kittens, but they eventually went with

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Speaker 1: Warsaw after the David Bowie song on Low or Sawa

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Speaker 1: and Um, and they were playing together, know that, and

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Speaker 1: for a while, I think a couple of months when

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Speaker 1: they learned that there was a London man called the

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Speaker 1: Warsaw Pack. So it was like you know the spinal

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Speaker 1: tap Originals New Originals thing. They had to get a

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Speaker 1: new name, and so to avoid confusion with this other band,

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Speaker 1: Warsaw Pact, they chose the name Joy Division, which is

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Speaker 1: not a very uplifting name. It is the name for

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Speaker 1: the sexual slavery wing of the Nazi concentration camp, so

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Speaker 1: not a very uplifting It's not a uplifting name if

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Speaker 1: you know the origin story. But I have to say

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Speaker 1: that I think it's like one of the best band

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Speaker 1: names in rock history, especially because of the irony when

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Speaker 1: you know what they sound like. It's like there's not

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Speaker 1: much joy in Joy Division, but it's but like people

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Speaker 1: have talked about this, like the Great Music. British music

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Speaker 1: journalist Paul Morley has said that like when you heard

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Speaker 1: the name Joy Division, it just seemed like a band

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Speaker 1: that you had already loved for ten years. You know,

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Speaker 1: there was just something instantly iconic about that, and I

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Speaker 1: think it rolls into the first Joy Division record, which

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Speaker 1: of course is Unknown Pleasures out in nine, a brilliant record,

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Speaker 1: I think, one of the best debut albums ever made.

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Speaker 1: I think if you listen to any post punk band

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Speaker 1: that has come out in the past forty years, they

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Speaker 1: are in some way ripping off that record. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just been incredibly influential. Although in a way, I

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Speaker 1: feel like the album cover at this point is more

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Speaker 1: famous than the album itself, Like, especially as a T shirt,

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Speaker 1: you see it everywhere and oh yeah. I think the

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Speaker 1: album cover, along with the band name, it just added

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Speaker 1: to this sense of people hearing this band, seeing this band,

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Speaker 1: and feeling like, wow, they're already this kind of fully

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Speaker 1: formed entity that has like a perfect sound and a

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Speaker 1: complete aesthetic, like right out of the gate um. The

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Speaker 1: thing about that first record is that they made it

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Speaker 1: pretty quickly. I think it was over the course of

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Speaker 1: three weekends that they were able to you know, bash

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Speaker 1: those tracks out, and you know, in subsequent years, Peter

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Speaker 1: Hook would always complain about how long it would take

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Speaker 1: New Order to make albums. I think like by the

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Speaker 1: time they get to like Waiting for the Sirens Call

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Speaker 1: that record took like three years to make, you know,

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Speaker 1: versus three weekends for Unknown Pleasures. And I think because

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Speaker 1: they work so quickly, Peter Hook and Bernard Sumner, they

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Speaker 1: didn't really have time to beef at that time. You know,

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Speaker 1: they were young, they were hungry, they were learning how

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Speaker 1: to make records. It really wasn't until closer the second

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Speaker 1: Joint Division record, and of course the last which came

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Speaker 1: out in shortly after Ian Curtis's death, that you started

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Speaker 1: to see some conflicts and it really becomes, I think,

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Speaker 1: the core conflicts that are going to haunt these guys

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Speaker 1: for the rest of their partnership. It really kind of

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Speaker 1: comes down to two things. Like one is musical differences

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Speaker 1: that I think, especially as we get a new order,

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Speaker 1: Bernard Sumner is going to be pulling them away from

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Speaker 1: being a straightforward rock band, whereas Peter Hook is going

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Speaker 1: to want to stay in that camp. So that's a problem.

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Speaker 1: The second problem, which I think we've already seen, is

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Speaker 1: that these guys have different personalities. Bernard Sumner seems like

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Speaker 1: a pretty quiet, introspective, I think, relatively nice guy. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it seems like he's pretty polite and would be nice

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Speaker 1: to know, whereas Peter Hook is this loudmouth, brash, hilarious

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Speaker 1: but maybe difficult person to deal with, and it just

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Speaker 1: seems like that was already coming into play. Like I mean,

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Speaker 1: have you heard that story about like how they were

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Speaker 1: two essentially opposing camps in this band like Enjoy Division,

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Speaker 1: Like while they were making Closer. Yeah, their manager invented

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Speaker 1: him to apartments and Hook was in one and he

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Speaker 1: headed up sort of a loud bastard brigade, and Bernie

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Speaker 1: was in the other with Ian Sumner and sort of

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Speaker 1: the more quiet the cultural flat they sort of like

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Speaker 1: called themselves. So of course Hooks team loved to just

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Speaker 1: tool on the cultural flat, you know, did their hearts content.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there were all these stories about like you know,

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Speaker 1: Hook taking like and Curtis's girlfriends like panties and stuff

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Speaker 1: and like you know, like stringing them up like things

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Speaker 1: like that, like real like summer camps, dount. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: these guys were young at the time. I mean I

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Speaker 1: think they were only what like exactly, so they were

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Speaker 1: like the age of college kids, and like Peter Hook

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Speaker 1: was acting like a college kid, but Bernard Sumner was

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Speaker 1: already you know, not into that sort of thing, and

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Speaker 1: and Ian Curtis was also in that camp, and it

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Speaker 1: feels like, you know, for Bernard Sumner maybe already at

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Speaker 1: this point he was thinking that, you know, like I'm

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Speaker 1: the serious guy, Like I'm the one who maybe has

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Speaker 1: like a better idea of like the big picture creative

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Speaker 1: direction that we're going to go in. And Peter Hook,

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Speaker 1: you know, yeah, he's a good bass player, but he's

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Speaker 1: sort of a buffoon, you know, So I've got to

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Speaker 1: deal with this guy, you know, and and try to

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Speaker 1: have patience with him. Whereas I think Peter Hook from

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Speaker 1: his perspective, he's looking at Bernard Sumner as what, like

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Speaker 1: I guess being like kill joy in a way, or

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Speaker 1: like not being a person who's going to embrace being

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Speaker 1: in a successful rock band and is going to kind

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Speaker 1: of pull them away from the rock and roll path

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Speaker 1: towards you know, maybe more of like a sterile sound

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Speaker 1: at least in his mind. Yeah, it was got the

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Speaker 1: idea that that Hook always looked at Bernie and thinking

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Speaker 1: like why are you here? Like why are you why

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Speaker 1: do you want to be in a rock band? Like

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Speaker 1: what is this? Like? You know, And this comes up

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Speaker 1: again and again on like later years, when Bernard doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to tour and things like that, Hooks just kind

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Speaker 1: of like, well, what what did you get in this for?

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Speaker 1: What did you think this was all about? Like getting

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Speaker 1: out and play? I know I often wondered what what

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Speaker 1: Bernie's relationship with An was like, because I mean you

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Speaker 1: read about it in books and stuff. But of course

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Speaker 1: after N's death, he was just sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: sanctified and uh. Yeah. I often wondered if if Bernie

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Speaker 1: sort of the weird power dynamic that to have the Hook,

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Speaker 1: if he felt that in any way within two before

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Speaker 1: he died. Yeah. I mean again, like you said, it's

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Speaker 1: so hard to analyze that stuff because one joy division

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Speaker 1: wasn't together very long and to like, Ian Curtis has

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Speaker 1: been this saintly figure for so long, I mean much

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Speaker 1: longer than he was alive, and it's hard to talk

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Speaker 1: about him as being a human being. I mean, It's

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Speaker 1: one thing that's interesting with Ian Curtis in the you know,

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Speaker 1: the Sumner Hook dynamic, is that I know, all this

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Speaker 1: Hook has talked about how he felt like Ian Curtis

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Speaker 1: kept uh, sort of a rap on any tensions might

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Speaker 1: have existed between them. That like when Ian Curtis was

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Speaker 1: around like he was the in question leader. It seems like, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then when when Ian died, In died on May

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Speaker 1: eighteenth night, on the eve of the band's first US tour,

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Speaker 1: and he died by suicide attributed to depression and worsening

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Speaker 1: epilepsy and just collapsing marriage. And yeah, like you said,

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Speaker 1: there's been a lot of speculation on whether or not

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Speaker 1: the group would have been slightly less tumultuous than New Order.

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Speaker 1: You know, if if if Ian had lived, he would

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Speaker 1: have sort of been able, there wouldn't have been that

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Speaker 1: power vacuum that that hook and Bernie sort of rushed

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Speaker 1: in to try to fill over the next you know, decade,

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Speaker 1: twenty years. Yeah, what's striking to me is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: Ian Curtisy dies right before they put out Closer, and

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Speaker 1: I guess they had played some of those Closer songs

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Speaker 1: before the album came out, Like if you listen to

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Speaker 1: that Postumus record still where there's like a bunch of

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Speaker 1: live performances on there, they're playing songs like Atrocity, Exhibition

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Speaker 1: and Isolation and and other songs that were on Closer,

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Speaker 1: but they never toured behind it, and it just seems like,

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Speaker 1: you know, Ian just died. They were going to do

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Speaker 1: an American tour. Obviously that wasn't gonna happen now, and

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Speaker 1: it's like they just had to close the door I'm

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Speaker 1: closer and become this new band, and I just wonder,

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Speaker 1: you know, it seems like it's some ways maybe Ian

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Speaker 1: Curtis exhibited some control over those guys even after he died,

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Speaker 1: because they had to focus on just carrying on and

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Speaker 1: and in a way sort of burying their grief, and

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Speaker 1: that was such an elephant in the room for so

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Speaker 1: long that maybe they didn't have time to really go

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Speaker 1: after each other in the early years of New Order

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Speaker 1: until they became successful. Then of course it all starts

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Speaker 1: to go to hell. Yeah, it's crazy to think. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I feel like every psychologist now would say this is

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Speaker 1: what you don't do. But as they started writing New

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Speaker 1: Orders songs like you know a week after Ian Curtis's

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Speaker 1: death inquest things like that. I think Peter Hooks said

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Speaker 1: in this book that he wrote the baseline of dreams

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Speaker 1: never end like you know barely like days after the funeral. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and the band's first single, Ceremony was one of the

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Speaker 1: last joy Division songs was composed by Ian Curtis. He

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Speaker 1: wrote the lyrics, and uh yeah, I I felt that

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Speaker 1: they they really had an awkward relationship with their legacy.

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Speaker 1: I think Hook was more apt to be the one

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Speaker 1: to want to play Joy Division songs in early New Order,

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Speaker 1: whereas Bernie he kind of took the Paul McCartney and

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Speaker 1: Wings approach and said, you know what, no, I'm doing

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Speaker 1: this now that we're gonna start completely fresh. And I

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Speaker 1: think there was some tension between them for that off

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Speaker 1: the bat too, so it really started them off on

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Speaker 1: the wrong foot, just regardless of all their past relationship issues. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting when you hear like early New Order songs

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Speaker 1: because it really does sound like Joy Division, or maybe

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Speaker 1: a more danceable version of Joy Division, like you can

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Speaker 1: easily imagine Ian Curtis singing on a lot of the

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Speaker 1: songs on the first New Order album, Movement, which came

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Speaker 1: out in one But I think pretty soon after that,

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Speaker 1: as they start to evolve, you can hear the differences

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Speaker 1: between those groups. It seems like it becomes pretty pronounced

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Speaker 1: fairly quickly. Yeah, and like you said, the sonic differences

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Speaker 1: in addition to all the personality class was a really

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Speaker 1: driving Hook and some of there apart. Uh and Hook

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Speaker 1: writes in his book, you know, this was around the

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Speaker 1: time when we started having to spend all this time

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Speaker 1: programming sequencers and sympthson stuff, and it was boring. He said,

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Speaker 1: why can't we just fucking play. We're a band, We've

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Speaker 1: written hundreds of fantastic songs. Can't we just play? The

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Speaker 1: other guys were busy reinventing pop. Me I liked pop

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Speaker 1: just find the way it was. I think that sums

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Speaker 1: it up. And they have these musical differences going on,

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Speaker 1: and of course there's also the personality clashes happening. And

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Speaker 1: I wonder like if it ultimately came down to Peter

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Speaker 1: Hook wanting to be a rock star and Bernie not

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Speaker 1: really feeling that or feeling some ambivalence about that, because

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Speaker 1: it seems like, you know, New Order not touring becomes

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Speaker 1: a recurring problem that becomes more pronounced as the band

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Speaker 1: progresses that like Peter Hook wants to be this guy

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Speaker 1: on the road, he wants to be partying in hotel rooms,

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Speaker 1: he wants to be doing below with groupies, living the

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Speaker 1: whole life, and Sumner really doesn't. And you know, he

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Speaker 1: writes in his book Chapter and Verse, which is a

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Speaker 1: fair to say that he only wrote that because Peter

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Speaker 1: Hook wrote like words other musical legacy. He felt like

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Speaker 1: he had to respond, I did the fit in himself.

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Speaker 1: And then Hook went and so I think you went

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Speaker 1: in Billboard and basically did like a point by point

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Speaker 1: rebuttal of Bernie's book after that too, It's like Peter Hook,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, it was basically a big defense book. Peter

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Speaker 1: Hook couldn't even let Sumner have his book. It's like, no,

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Speaker 1: I've already written, I've written words, but I've ben to

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Speaker 1: write even more words and Billboard to further refute like

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Speaker 1: what Sumner is saying. But like one of the things

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Speaker 1: he writes about Sumner in his book Chapter in Versus,

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Speaker 1: just this idea that like he felt that there was

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Speaker 1: a delineation between his public and private life and that

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Speaker 1: he wanted to have a private life away from the

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Speaker 1: band and you know, just kind of live a quiet,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of family existence, I think. And then yeah,

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Speaker 1: Peter Hook, who was just I think feeling increasingly frustrated

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Speaker 1: that he can't just be on the road all the

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Speaker 1: time and and and being this like, you know, conquering

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Speaker 1: rock band. Yeah, I think he thought he's being like

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Speaker 1: told what to do by the weakest will member of

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Speaker 1: the group, and he I think in his own book

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Speaker 1: he even talks about how Bernie got the lead vocal

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Speaker 1: part because initially, when they first were recording the first

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Speaker 1: couple of New Orders songs, I guess Stephen Hook and

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Speaker 1: Bernie all recorded just the vocal lines together and it

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Speaker 1: was just gonna be a blend the ball three singing.

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Speaker 1: And then Bernie said, wait, wait, wait, I want to

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Speaker 1: I want to try it again, so they wiped all

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Speaker 1: the tracks and then they ended up just leaving his

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Speaker 1: voice on there. So he basically by just default got

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Speaker 1: the lead singer part. And then later on is this

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Speaker 1: we'll see this again and again he's just sort of

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Speaker 1: like he took on the perspective of like, well, I'm

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Speaker 1: the lead singer. You can't really get rid of me.

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Speaker 1: Everybody else's is dispensable. And this would come up when

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Speaker 1: they would do their their side projects later on, who

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Speaker 1: kind of felt like, well, no, we're a band, we're not.

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Speaker 1: But you know, lead singer syndrome. It's a classic classic problem.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there is this weird thing with Peter Hook,

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Speaker 1: where like you said, he describes Sumner as being the

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Speaker 1: weakest wild member of the band, and yet in the

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Speaker 1: same breath he'll talk about him being this prima donna

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Speaker 1: who is insisting on everything going his way. In one

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Speaker 1: of his books, I think it's the New Order book Substance,

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Speaker 1: he talks about how like at some point in the

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Speaker 1: mid eighties, Sumner would never show up to anything on time.

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Speaker 1: That became his big power move to show that he

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Speaker 1: was the one in charge. So there is this weird

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Speaker 1: thing where Hook is complaining that like something as taking

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Speaker 1: all the control, but then also feeling like, well, he's

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Speaker 1: also not the best leader. You know, there's sort of

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Speaker 1: like a willful uh sort of giving up a responsibility

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Speaker 1: in a way by Peter Hook, I feel like in

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Speaker 1: these situations, yeah, I mean, speaking of lack of leadership,

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Speaker 1: I just want to point out that New Order is

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Speaker 1: probably famously one of the like, you know, most ripped

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Speaker 1: off bands financially of all time. Like they're just a

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Speaker 1: gigantic money pit. I mean. The most famous example involves

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Speaker 1: their their song Blue Monday, which had this elaborate UH

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Speaker 1: cover for the twelve inch sleeve. I think by Peter

370
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Speaker 1: Saville and somehow the finances of it worked out that

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Speaker 1: for every copy sold, the band lost five pence and

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Speaker 1: it became the best selling twelve inch single ever. So

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Speaker 1: the band lost all this money on their biggest hit

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Speaker 1: just and then of course they also go into the Hacienda,

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Speaker 1: the Hacienda club in Manchester, which was just a gigantic

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Speaker 1: money pit. I think at one point was losing ten

377
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Speaker 1: thou hounds a week and so all they're touring revenue

378
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Speaker 1: just went to paying off that debt. So in addition

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Speaker 1: to you know, personality clashes musical differences, they also have

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Speaker 1: this massive financial train going on too at this time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just snatching defeat from the jaws of victory over and

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Speaker 1: over again. I feel like with with with New Order, Yeah,

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00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,960
Speaker 1: it's insane to me, like the Hacienda, that they would

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Speaker 1: essentially be making records in order to fund a nightclub

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Speaker 1: and I guess also their record label. But you know,

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Speaker 1: we're going to see this as this episode unfolds, like

387
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Speaker 1: now Order is like becoming this big band and yet

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Speaker 1: they can't fully enjoy the spoils of their success because

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Speaker 1: they're paying for a nightclub, which again just seems insane

390
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Speaker 1: to me, like, like what a terrible investment, Like why

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Speaker 1: would you just cut your losses at some point? I mean,

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Speaker 1: that would be the smart business thing to do. But clearly,

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Speaker 1: you know, and we could talk about the Hacienda an

394
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Speaker 1: entirely different episode. I mean, if you haven't seen twenty

395
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Speaker 1: four Hour Party People, which if I don't know what

396
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,160
Speaker 1: you're doing, listen to this episode. If you haven't seen

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Speaker 1: that movie, I mean, come on, you pause and put

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Speaker 1: that exactly. They talk about that nightclub, uh in that film,

399
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Speaker 1: I think being like an idea as much as a business,

400
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Speaker 1: Like there was just something sort of utopian maybe about

401
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,840
Speaker 1: what that club represented. And also Factory Records as well,

402
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:12,359
Speaker 1: and like New Order was a big part of that.

403
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Speaker 1: But yeah, it's just insane that they were doing that.

404
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,080
Speaker 1: And you know, New Order they're progressing as they get

405
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Speaker 1: into the mid eighties and they're and they're turning out

406
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Speaker 1: just like a series of just like perfect pop singles

407
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Speaker 1: and and they're really going to start hitting I think

408
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Speaker 1: their peak around the time that they released Brotherhood in

409
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Speaker 1: six and like this is like one of the most

410
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Speaker 1: fascinating New Order albums to me, because this thing that

411
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,000
Speaker 1: we're talking about the rock side that they have that

412
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:43,400
Speaker 1: derives from joy division in this dance music side that

413
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Speaker 1: is becoming a bigger part of what they're doing. That

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Speaker 1: it seems like Sumner was the one really driving that.

415
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Speaker 1: And quite frankly, you know, as much as I am

416
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Speaker 1: a Peter Hook partisan, you got to give Sumner his

417
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Speaker 1: props for recognizing that this was the sound of the

418
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:01,639
Speaker 1: eight reason that they were going to be a more

419
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 1: important band if they could find a way to integrate

420
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,440
Speaker 1: these sounds, right, I mean, isn't that like as much

421
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,080
Speaker 1: as I love Peter Hook, in a way, you have

422
00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,760
Speaker 1: to say that Sumner was right in his instincts to

423
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,440
Speaker 1: be pushing new order in this direction. Yeah, and then

424
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:16,560
Speaker 1: they were successful at it too, I mean, not only

425
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 1: thinking about it just being progressive from a musical standpoint.

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Speaker 1: But it worked. I mean, Blue Monday was the biggest

427
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 1: twelve inch selling of all time. I mean, this was

428
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,320
Speaker 1: something that was in their best in a rare candy

429
00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:31,320
Speaker 1: financial move to actually pursue the sound as well. But yeah,

430
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,080
Speaker 1: I think Hook just viewed it is veering too far

431
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,160
Speaker 1: from the roots, you know, at that Sex Pistols gig,

432
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,240
Speaker 1: and he also he felt that, you know, he was

433
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,680
Speaker 1: primarily the main acoustic player in the band, and that

434
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,119
Speaker 1: Bernie was quite literally limiting him, turning him down. I

435
00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,560
Speaker 1: guess during the recording a Brotherhood he talked about how

436
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:48,760
Speaker 1: like he said that Bernie and the engineer had some

437
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,640
Speaker 1: kind of device put on his base that they could

438
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 1: kind of turn down, and he felt, you know, muzzle. Basically,

439
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,159
Speaker 1: I love that stage in the band's career when they

440
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 1: start arguing about like the levels of each band member

441
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,760
Speaker 1: in the studio, like turn the vocals down, turn your

442
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,359
Speaker 1: base down, you know, turn this up. And that's always

443
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,159
Speaker 1: a great sign, you know, those ego battles over, you know,

444
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 1: being manifested in in the mix of a record. But

445
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:15,040
Speaker 1: like with Brotherhood, the clash between Hook and Sumner just

446
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,639
Speaker 1: seems more stark than it ever would be because on

447
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,159
Speaker 1: side one you essentially have a rock record, and on

448
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 1: side too you have the dance record, so it's just

449
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,399
Speaker 1: split pretty evenly between those two sides. And of course

450
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 1: the big hit from that record ends up being on

451
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 1: the dance side, which is Bizarre Love Triangle that becomes

452
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 1: a huge defining hit for New Order. And then there's

453
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 1: also the single True Faith, which comes out of this

454
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 1: period it ends up being released on the album Uh Substance,

455
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,360
Speaker 1: the singles compilation that ends up really breaking them in America.

456
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 1: And I have to say that True Faith to me,

457
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 1: like if I were to make a list of perfect

458
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,159
Speaker 1: pop songs, True Faith would be on the list. Like,

459
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,840
Speaker 1: I just think it's an incredible song. I mean, don't you.

460
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 1: Oh yeah? And I think, actually I hope could at

461
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,399
Speaker 1: least later take credit for it. I don't know how

462
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 1: much that's true, but yeah, I mean it's funny that

463
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,120
Speaker 1: one of the best dance songs they made I think

464
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 1: came from him primarily well, because he would also talk

465
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 1: about how didn't he say something about how he felt

466
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 1: like it was a like a Pet Shop Boys rip

467
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,120
Speaker 1: off and like not a very good one. Yeah. Yeah.

468
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,639
Speaker 1: He hated Neil Tennant. He hated the Pet Shop Boys.

469
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 1: He would whenever he wanted to like come up with

470
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 1: a reference for like, you know, disposable electro late eighties pop,

471
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 1: he would always name drop the name check the Pet

472
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 1: Shop Boys, which I think is also an interesting comparison

473
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,679
Speaker 1: because at this time they're also working with Stephen Hague,

474
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 1: who was the producer of the early Pet Shop Boys

475
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 1: hits like West End Girls, and I think that's why

476
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: New Order ended up working with him. So I'm sure

477
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 1: that was like also part of his resentment with with

478
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,640
Speaker 1: True Faith that they were working with the same producer

479
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 1: as the Pet Shop Boys. But again, it's a perfect

480
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 1: pop song, and you know, I always laugh, Like one

481
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,360
Speaker 1: of my favorite videos of of New Order is them

482
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: playing on top of the Pops in seven Uh, and

483
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 1: they're performing True Faith and Peter Hook is wearing a

484
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 1: leather jacket and he's playing his bass like around his ankles,

485
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,119
Speaker 1: like he looks like a member of Japan Droids, you know,

486
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 1: not a member of this like synth pop group. And

487
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. To me, it just signifies the tension

488
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,400
Speaker 1: in the band because even when they're playing this song

489
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 1: that I think for a lot of people is one

490
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 1: of the defining examples of like great eighties synth pop,

491
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:25,959
Speaker 1: it's like Peter Hook still had to look like he

492
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 1: was playing in a punk band, didn't you under stay

493
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 1: one of his books, like one of his shoulders or

494
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 1: one of his arms like significantly longer than the other

495
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 1: from like years of playing bass that low, Like that's

496
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 1: tough to do, Yeah, I would imagine. I mean, it's

497
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 1: very low and again it reminds me of like like

498
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,199
Speaker 1: a Sid Vicious or like a Duff mccagan type you know,

499
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,880
Speaker 1: bass stance or uh, you know, like add Ramon type thing.

500
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 1: But yeah, he had to wave that flag even when

501
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 1: musically they were clearly moving away from those roots. All right, hand,

502
00:23:54,280 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 1: we'll be right back with more rivals. Substance takes off

503
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: in the US. They go on their first real big

504
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: American tour and uh, and and Bernie seems to hate

505
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: every minute of it. I mean, this is really when

506
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 1: he starts pulling I mean the diva card in Peter's book. Uh.

507
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: He says, you know, he would ask for these lengthy

508
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 1: sound checks and then not show up till the very end,

509
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: and he would say, you know, it was fine because

510
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 1: every given situation was improved by Barney's absence, so we

511
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: weren't bothered one bit. Everybody had had bad memories of

512
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 1: sound checks where Twatto his pet name for Bernie, would

513
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 1: turn up and ruin it by sulking, stamping about, moaning,

514
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 1: and putting everyone on edge. So my favorite story from

515
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: this tour also is I guess some there demanded hot

516
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: food backstage at all times, and they use some kind

517
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 1: of Sterno or something that I guess made everybody sick,

518
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: and everybody had horrible stomach paints from this hot food

519
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 1: that Bernie demanded. And then Bernie sort of getting really sick,

520
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: and Hook thought, well, he's just being a eva. He's

521
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: just you know, let him, He's just he just wants attention.

522
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: And he ended up going to the hospital for an ulcer.

523
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,719
Speaker 1: I guess he hated touring that much then end up

524
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: giving himself an ulcer, and they canceled I think one

525
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: of the first and only tour dates they ever canceled

526
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: in Detroit, and Hook, in his book writes that he

527
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: thinks that this was a real turning point for Summer

528
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 1: because he realized the band can't do this without me,

529
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 1: you know, like like they cannot go on stage without me.

530
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 1: He really thinks that that's the moment that gave Bernie

531
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: like a big hit because he realized that, you know,

532
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 1: the show couldn't go on without Yeah, you know. It's

533
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: it's amazing with Sumner because you look at him and

534
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: he's like not a conventionally good singer, and I think

535
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: even comparing him to Ian Curtis, who wasn't a great singer,

536
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: but he had a great sounding voice, and he had

537
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 1: a wonderful presence about him. It was very distinctive, and

538
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 1: he could make his voice work perfectly in the framework

539
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: of Joy Division, where it just evoked the mood so perfectly.

540
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 1: And Sumners somehow was able to do the same thing

541
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: in New Order, where there's something about the flatness of

542
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: his voice that just perfectly convey something like quintessentially eighties

543
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: to me, I mean, I think of that movie, you know,

544
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:15,439
Speaker 1: American Psycho, where, uh, there's the same thing in that

545
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: idea of this flatness of delivery and the way that

546
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 1: people talk and how that is masking a darkness that

547
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: is running in the undercurrent of of the culture at

548
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 1: the time. And maybe I'm thinking of that example because

549
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 1: like True Faith is in that movie, there's a scene

550
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: like where Patrick Bateman is dancing to that song. It's

551
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 1: just so perfect for like what New Order was doing

552
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: at that time, that they could make these great pop

553
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: songs that always had a subversive edge to them. Uh,

554
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: there's always, like I think, a deeper darkness in there.

555
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: I had to say too that, like, I think some

556
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: of that also comes from the sound of Peter Hook's

557
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: bass sound again. You know, I mentioned that at the top,

558
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: that very trebly, melodic basse that he brought to the records,

559
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 1: even as they became more of a pop, you know,

560
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: dance band essentially. You know, he would still kind of

561
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,479
Speaker 1: force his way unto those tracks. And it's like, when

562
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 1: I hear that bass sound cut through the mix, it's like, oh,

563
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 1: this is New Order, Like I know it's New Order now.

564
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 1: I mean you're a bass player. I mean where do

565
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 1: you feel like Peter Hook ranks in the animals of

566
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: great bass players? Oh? Yeah, I mean I feel like

567
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,479
Speaker 1: he pioneered, like the lead base part. I I I

568
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: think his bass part gives those tracks humanity because I

569
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: I tend to like Joy Division more than New Order

570
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 1: for the reason you just mentioned. There's something very clinical

571
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 1: and even though even though it's dancy, there's there is

572
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: a darkness to it that does set me on edge.

573
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 1: And his baselines kind of like the human element that

574
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: pokes through. Not only I mean they just incredibly crafted

575
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: and melodic baselines that you know, it sounds like Paul

576
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: McCartney at his best doing those like elaborate uh Sergeant

577
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: Pepper runs and revolver runs on his Rickenbacker. Um, But yeah,

578
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: I feel like that's what keeps it tethered in the

579
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: human range and away from the computers. And yeah, I

580
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,239
Speaker 1: think that's the part of Joy Division that they were

581
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: able to most successfully bring over a New Order, and I,

582
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 1: you know, I appreciate that the most. It seems like

583
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 1: the power struggle between Hook and Sumner, which in a

584
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 1: lot of ways, at least musically, seems to be about

585
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: Hook insisting that his base beyond their records. Like that

586
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: seems to be like the story of New Order albums

587
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: as they progress in the eighties, like Peter Hook wanting

588
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 1: to find a space for himself and these again increasingly

589
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: sequenced and dance oriented records kind of reaches its peak,

590
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: I think with the album Technique, which I'd love to

591
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: read like more about the making of this record, because apparently,

592
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: like New Order, they decamped to Abisa. I don't know

593
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: why you would want to work in Abisa. It seems

594
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: like not a great work environment because you're in this

595
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: beautiful setting. You have, like you know, sexy, glamorous people

596
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: all around you. I'm sure there's like lots of great

597
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: drugs flowing through the island. You just want to go

598
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: to dance clubs, and I think that's what Peter Hook

599
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: wanted to do. He just wanted to party on this island.

600
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: But it does seem like it did have some sort

601
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: of artists they pay off for the band, because at

602
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: least Bernard Sumner like he was going to dance clubs

603
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: and he was soaking up like the acid house music

604
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: that was happening on the island at that time, and

605
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: it seems like that was a big influence on that

606
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: album technique. But again you have this thing where Peter

607
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: Hook is i think still kind of validly holding on

608
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: to this old idea of like them playing as a

609
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: band and and Sumner and it's it seems like the

610
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: other members of New Order, Stephen Morris and Jillian Gilbert,

611
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: they kind of went more along with Sumner. Ultimately. Yeah,

612
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: I mean, to your point, it's in their best interest

613
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: that Peter's baselines were on there, because I think if

614
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: they had just gone with sequences are synth for the

615
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: base on, they would have sounded like every other eighties band.

616
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: I think that's probably what made them stand out. And yeah,

617
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: the IBSA, I think IBSA was where they got their

618
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: ideas for the album. But I think in Peter's book

619
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: he was saying how they didn't actually get a lot

620
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: of work done. They spent probably like five times the

621
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: amount of time there, but they only got like, you know,

622
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: ten percent of the album done there and then they

623
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: went back to England and actually finished it. Not one

624
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: of my favorite albums. What what do you think? Something

625
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: about it just seemed a little too The Veneer was

626
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: a little too sharp. I don't know, there was something

627
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: about it that I I yeah, I mean I can

628
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: see feeling that way. If because and I said to

629
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: be more of a Division fan, and in a way

630
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: I am too, I would probably lean more towards Joy Division,

631
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 1: although I love New Order, and I think the argument

632
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: for Technique is that I think that is sort of

633
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: the ultimate manifestation of like the evolution that Joy Division

634
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: into New Order had at the end of the eighties,

635
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: Like that was what they were building up to, that

636
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: this was going to be a record where I think

637
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: it's really hard to separate the rock and the dance influences,

638
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: like in the way that you can easily separate on Brotherhood.

639
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: Maybe to that Records detriment, Although I like that there's

640
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: a rock side in the dance side. I think it's

641
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: a really sort of interesting split, and I think there's

642
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: great songs on that record, But on Technique it's like

643
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: fully integrated. And I think when you look at what

644
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: was going to be happen sending in British rock in

645
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: eighty nine and beyond, you know, like with bands like

646
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: Stone Roses and Happy Mondays and Primal Scream, you know,

647
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: all those groups that we're going to be, you know,

648
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: sort of taking rock music in that direction. You have

649
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: to look at Technique as being like a very foundational

650
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: record of that sort of evolution. I have to say

651
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: to that. In a way, I feel like New Order

652
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: ended with that record, because that's when you start to

653
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: see these side projects come into play, and it just

654
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 1: seems like them being like a real band, Like they're

655
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: gonna come together and follow apart over the next couple

656
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: of decades. But I don't know if it's ever going

657
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: to be quite the same after this record. Yeah, it

658
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: sounds like Peter Hook would agree with you. He was

659
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: saying that they were on tour uh In and Bernie

660
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: basically gave them right before a gig the I want

661
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: to work with other people talk, which you know, I think,

662
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: he writes, he said he played the irreplaceable frontman card

663
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: and won the hand. From that moment onwards, we were

664
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: always wondering what Barney might do next, whether we were

665
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: so plus two requirements, and it cast a power of

666
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: doubt and uncertainty over the whole band from then on,

667
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: because yeah, he said. You know, we know now that

668
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,959
Speaker 1: they got back together on several other occasions, but at

669
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:11,719
Speaker 1: the time, it seemed like that could have definitely been

670
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: the end. And I think it was almost like a

671
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: new young situation where they wanted to sort of like

672
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: acquiesced to his desires just to sort of keep them, yeah,

673
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: for sure. And and also, I mean they're also starting

674
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: to form their own bands at this point too, right,

675
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: I mean, because like, I think that was a big

676
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: problem for Peter Hook that Bernard Sumner went off and

677
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: formed Electronic with Johnny Marr. I love the fact that

678
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: in Peter's book he talks about Johnny Marr. He claims

679
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: that Johnny Marr wanted to form a band with him first,

680
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: and he said, no, he's made my heart's a new order.

681
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: I don't want to do this. And then you know,

682
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: a short while later he teams up with Bernie. I

683
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: thought that was a really funny like, yeah, no, he

684
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: wanted me first, but I said no, I had integrity.

685
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: I wanted to stay with New Order, and Bernie's the

686
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: one who wanted to split the band and go off

687
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: and do this this other thing. But but yeah, he

688
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: formed Electronic with with Johnny Marr uh, and I think

689
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: it also worked with Neil ten from the Pitch Up

690
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: Boys too, and uh, I didn't enjoy it for the

691
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: same reason I didn't really like Technique, although I don't

692
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: get the message is a good song and it's it

693
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: huge numbers on both sides of the Atlantic. But yeah,

694
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: I I think it was just I certainly don't like

695
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: it anywhere near as much as New Order. What do

696
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: you think? Yeah, I think it's okay. I mean again,

697
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: I'm of the opinion that these two guys are great together.

698
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: Obviously we have Joy Division and New Order in that

699
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: column where these guys are working together, and then you

700
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: have Electronic and then yeah, Peter Hooks band Revenge, which

701
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: I feel like, should we just take that band name

702
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: a face value? That he was like sticking it to

703
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: Bernard Sumner by forming his own band. I mean, it

704
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: seems like that's pretty straightforward there. I mean, he claimed

705
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: it was he took it from the word that was

706
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: on George Michael's leather jacket in the Faith video. But

707
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: I mean, these band names are very on the nose.

708
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: I mean, Bernie forming an electro band called Electronic and

709
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: then forming a rival band called Revenge. Yeah, it seems

710
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: like they got the name thing down pretty well. Yeah,

711
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: Like if you were making like the biopic about these guys,

712
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: you would think, Okay, like this is just too obvious,

713
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: you know, like we're being a little too on the

714
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 1: nose by having these the side projects. But they end

715
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: up coming back together for the album Republic, and according

716
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: to Peter Hook anyway, it seems like this wasn't something

717
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 1: that they would have done of their own volition. That

718
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: they were essentially hustled into the studio because Factory Records

719
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: and the Hacienda again we're just hemorrhaging money and they

720
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: needed a new order record to keep those companies afloat.

721
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: So they end up working on this record and it

722
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: ends up being a pretty miserable experience, right, But it's

723
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 1: actually one of my favorite albums of There's too I mean,

724
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: it's got I think it was their biggest hit in

725
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 1: the US, right, it was something like that. It did

726
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: extremely well, but yeah, this was not something that they

727
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: would have done on their own volition. Yeah, the song Regret,

728
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: I think is one of their best singles, and I

729
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,280
Speaker 1: think one of the best sounding songs I've ever heard.

730
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: I mean, just like the mix of that I think

731
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 1: is so perfect. And again you have, I think, everything

732
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: very distinctively New Order on that song. You have uh

733
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: this great uh you know, Bernard Sumner vocal on there

734
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 1: with his guitar playing off of Peter Hook's very melodic

735
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: bass sound. And uh. The thing about New Order songs

736
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 1: too that always blows me away is that, like their

737
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: choruses are usually just like another verse, you know, like

738
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: it's not just like it's not a conventional type of

739
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: chorus where maybe you're just singing like a very punchy

740
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 1: phrase over and over again. You're just kind of going

741
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: into like another line and it ends up being like

742
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,240
Speaker 1: a very wordy chorus, like the way it is on Regret,

743
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: Like I would like a place I can call my own,

744
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 1: have another conversation on the telephone. All that it's very

745
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: similar to to True Faith and Bizarre Love. Triangle. It's

746
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: a very unique songwriting uh technique, and it's against something

747
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: that makes it very distinctively new order. But yeah, even

748
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 1: in spite of all that commercial and creative success, they

749
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: really went into a downturn after that. I think they

750
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 1: didn't speak together for something. I didn't speak to one

751
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,439
Speaker 1: another for something like five years afterwards. They only really

752
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: got back together in the suggestion of their manager, and

753
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: Hook would later claim that their manager, Rob Gretton, got

754
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: him and Steve and Jillian together first and suggested touring

755
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: without Bernie. But then Hook, you know, said he did

756
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: the stand up thing and said, no, we're not in

757
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: the order without Bernie, so go get him. So he

758
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: takes credit for getting the entire band back together. It's,

759
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 1: you know, for debate whether or not that's true. But yeah,

760
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: they had a sort of a honeymoon period. They all

761
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 1: got together and tried to iron out their differences beforehand,

762
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: and recording their two thousand one album, get Ready, went

763
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: reasonably well, although I think Hook was really frustrated that

764
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: that Bernie really didn't want to tour much, and he

765
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 1: also really really was angry that Bernie would go off

766
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: and write his own lyrics and vocal parts, because he

767
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: he made a really interesting point. He said, you know,

768
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: I view recording as a team sport, and everybody plays

769
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: their positions. Bernie sacrifices everything to the song. You know,

770
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: if he has an idea for for the baseline or

771
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: this or that, he's gonna go in and do it

772
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: regardless of He doesn't mind getting in there and elbowing

773
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: people out of the way if he thinks it suits

774
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: the song, which I think it's a very generous read on.

775
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: You know, it's a nice way of saying that he's

776
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 1: a control freak. I guess I think this can be

777
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: regarded as somewhat of a honeymoon period for these guys.

778
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: I know that Peter Hook has talked about how he

779
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: felt that him and Sumner worked together as well as

780
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: they had in years on get Ready, and you know,

781
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 1: he had gone into that project saying that, like, I'm

782
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: not going to make another New Order record if it's

783
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: like Republic, because again, like that experience was really bad. Apparently,

784
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: like the rest of the band had worked on their

785
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: own for a long time while Sumner was off doing

786
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: his own thing with Electronic and then he came in

787
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: late in the process and basically just kind of redid

788
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: everything and it just wasn't them working together as a band,

789
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: and I think that's what again Hook really wanted them

790
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 1: to do. And when you listen to that record get Ready,

791
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: I mean, it does sound like a band record, and

792
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 1: it does also sound more like a rock record, like

793
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: the big single Crystal off that record, which I think

794
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: is a great song. I mean that sounds like an

795
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: alt rock song inspired by the nineties, you know, like

796
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 1: I think like Billy Corgan is on that album, like

797
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: Bobby Gillespie from Primal Scream is on that is on

798
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 1: that album. It's funny too, because like when you watch

799
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: the video for for Crystal, the name of the band

800
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 1: that's performing in that video is called The Killers, And

801
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: that's where the Killers got their name, was from that

802
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 1: music video. Yeah. So of course the Killers being one

803
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 1: of the many bands that borrowed a lot from New Order,

804
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: you know, as they progress in their career. But it's

805
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: funny to me that like one of the sources of

806
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: tension like that sort of spoiled this honeymoon again was

807
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 1: related to the Hacienda. It was a rare, financially canny

808
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: move on on Peter Hook's part the Hacienda finally closed

809
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: after you know, dying a long death in and Peter

810
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: bought the name rights to it, which you could then

811
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 1: license to, you know, compilation albums. I think he actually

812
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: even licensed it to some a block up apartment flats

813
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: that were built on the site. And he said it

814
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 1: was all above board, but Bernie made it seemed like

815
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: and and felt that it was he went behind the

816
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: band's back and bought the naming rights for this thing

817
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 1: that they all sunk so much money into over the years,

818
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: and then he took it for himself. Peter would say,

819
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: you know, that's really stupid. I've been going to Hassienda

820
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: meetings every week for years and and Bernie just never cared.

821
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 1: I was offered the opportunity to buy it, and I did,

822
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: and you know, I have no regrets about it. But

823
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 1: that made it seem like, as far as Bernie was concerned,

824
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 1: that there was some kind of sneaky double dealing behind

825
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: his back, and that really spoiled their relationship. I don't

826
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: think I ever recovered from that. Actually, yeah, I think

827
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,959
Speaker 1: Sumners said that like he lost respect for Peter Hook

828
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: after that, which seems like a little dramatic to me,

829
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: maybe I'm not fully appreciating the steak that they all

830
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: had in the Hacienda. It just seems odd to me

831
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: that again, like the goddamn Hacienda winds up ruining this

832
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: band in a way. It's like, why do you have

833
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: so much invested in this in this nightclub? It just

834
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,879
Speaker 1: seems insane to me. But you know, I think another

835
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: thing that was happening at this time time is that

836
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,399
Speaker 1: they started working on the next New Order record, which

837
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: was waiting for The Siren's Call, which didn't come out

838
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 1: until two thousand five. And I alluded to this earlier,

839
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 1: but this was a record that they worked on for

840
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 1: three years. I think there's something like a half dozen

841
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,280
Speaker 1: different producers that worked on that record. It just seems

842
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 1: like one of those like really overcooked, like superstar band

843
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: type albums. I actually think that there's like some pretty

844
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: decent songs on that record. I don't know how you

845
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: feel about that album. Peter would say that they initially

846
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 1: started off almost like approaching it as they would enjoy

847
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: the Vision project where they would jam together and refine ideas,

848
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: and it was probably the most bad like album in

849
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 1: the beginning that they had made for years, and then

850
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,879
Speaker 1: Hook would claim at least that Barney would just unilaterally

851
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: decided that he would go off and again write all

852
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: of his these lyrics and vocal melodies on his own,

853
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 1: and that kind of soured the experience for him at

854
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: that point. And also Hook's uh alcoholism at this point

855
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: was really reaching an extremely bad state. So that also

856
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,399
Speaker 1: contributed to, uh, a not great studio environment. Yeah. Yeah,

857
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 1: Peter Hook again being more of the like rock star

858
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: in the band essentially, like he was. He's admitted to

859
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: this that he had like a full blown alcoholic breakdown,

860
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: you know during the making of this record. I wonder

861
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 1: if to some degree that was fueled just by his

862
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: frustration over not being able to tour, you know, because yeah,

863
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: I think he just felt probably constrained in this band

864
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 1: that we're working on this record, it's taken forever, and

865
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: I can't even go on the road, uh, you know,

866
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: and being a musician, and that causes him to start

867
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: this sideline career where he's a celebrity DJ essentially, and

868
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: this ends up being like a big thing for him

869
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 1: that like he's touring the world, spinning records for people,

870
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: and I guess that was a replacement for being a

871
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 1: touring musician at this time, you know, like he wanted

872
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:52,879
Speaker 1: to be on the road. So it's like, I can't

873
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: play with New Order, so I'm gonna be a DJ.

874
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 1: I'm gonna play post punk songs for for kids in nightclubs.

875
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: This this is going to be a great for me.

876
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 1: And this is another thing that ends up sort of

877
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: contributing to the deterioration of this band because they're working

878
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: on the next New Order record, which is Lost Sirens,

879
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,879
Speaker 1: ends up being the last record with Peter Hook, and

880
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 1: according to Bernard Sumner, like they wanted to have Peter

881
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: Hook come into the studio to play, and Hook was

882
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 1: basically like, I can't do it. I'm dejaying, So then

883
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: you know, he couldn't be around and and again it

884
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: just seemed like that was another thing that just really

885
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: stuck in Sumners cross. The best part is that Peter

886
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 1: later admitted that when he was dejaang, he wasn't actually djaying.

887
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: He was just playing pre mixed CDs and then miming,

888
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 1: you know, like putting his hands to his headphones and

889
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 1: on the turntables and stuff. So I don't know, isn't

890
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: that what every DJ does I think that's my you know,

891
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 1: I have a conspiracy theory about every DJ. They're just

892
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: playing mixed CDs or they got like a really cool

893
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: Spotify playlist and there and they have they're pretending to

894
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 1: play you know, cool vinyl. But yeah, they're just they're

895
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: just chilling back there scrolling through their Instagram feed. As

896
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: a long term wedding DJ, I can say, you put

897
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: your one hand up to your headphone and just kind

898
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: of bob your head. You're a DJ. There you go,

899
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: even if you listen to Spotify. So they do their

900
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: final tour in South America in late two thousand and six,

901
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: and for some of their Hook is just becoming more

902
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: and more unbearable. Uh, he's just writing his memoir that

903
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,720
Speaker 1: you know, he refused to sit near him on planes.

904
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: It would just kind of like catch him giving him

905
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: glares across the stage, and whenever a camera would try

906
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: to do a close up on Bernie on stage, took

907
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: with like, you know, walk in front of it and

908
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: block him. It was a really rough time and he

909
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: would say he would cite that the fact that Hook

910
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,479
Speaker 1: got sober as sort of like he said, he turned

911
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 1: into a worse person. I didn't with his quote. Uh

912
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 1: and hohok kind of agreed. He'd say, you know, for years,

913
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,720
Speaker 1: I've been stuffing down all my frustration with with Bernie,

914
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: with with with alcohol and just kind of dulling my senses.

915
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 1: Now I was clean, I'm thinking, you know, I don't

916
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 1: have to deal with this. I'm tired of this. I'm

917
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,399
Speaker 1: tired of Bernie, he said. I'm sick of having my heartbroken.

918
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: I was sick of trying to play music and being

919
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: told to turn it down. I was sick of having

920
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,879
Speaker 1: the touring experience spoiled by someone who, by his own

921
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: frequent admission, didn't want to be there. And I was

922
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 1: sick of being dick aded too in studio sessions. I

923
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 1: was just fucking sick of Bernard Sumner. And uh, it

924
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,240
Speaker 1: all builds up to this, Uh, this show in Buenos

925
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: Aires where he tells the local press, you know, this

926
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: is probably gonna be our last show, and uh, all

927
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 1: throughout the tour that was kind of the just the feeling.

928
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: He famously he would write messages on his base cab,

929
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 1: and for the last couple of dates in the tour,

930
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,760
Speaker 1: he wrote in a series of messages two boys formed

931
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: a band, then the next day it all went wrong.

932
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: Then in the next day they split and then for

933
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 1: their last gig, the end, and that was really the

934
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:34,959
Speaker 1: end of Peter Hook in the band. Yeah, Like he

935
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: does this thing in Me two thousand seven where he

936
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: announces that they're breaking up without talking to the other

937
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: guys in the band. And if you listen to this show,

938
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: you know that this has happened in other bands. You know,

939
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: this happened in Pink Floyd with Roger Waters, it happened

940
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: in Talking Heads with David Byrne, and it happened in

941
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,959
Speaker 1: New Order. And I think it's hilarious that this came

942
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 1: out of an interview that Peter Hook was doing promoting

943
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 1: his appearance on a record by a band called Satellite Party,

944
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 1: which was like one of Perry Farrell's, like many side projects.

945
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 1: I feel like every X musician in a band who

946
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: left prematurely has ended up in a band with Perry

947
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 1: Farrell at some point. It's just one of the laws

948
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 1: of rock history that like, if you leave your band prematurely,

949
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 1: Perry Farrell is gonna like blow up your cell phone

950
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 1: and be like, hey, man, play on this kind of

951
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: crappy band. I just started, Uh, so anyway, he makes

952
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: this announcement that New Order has done, and of course

953
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: the other guys in New Order are upset about this

954
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: and they're like, no, we're not done, and it ends

955
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 1: up becoming this this sort of like war of words

956
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: between them, and I think, like Bernard Summer, do you

957
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: like put out a statement essentially saying like no, like

958
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: you're full of it, like we're still going to do

959
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 1: our thing. Yeah. It was very much like the Pink

960
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: Floyd situation where I was saying, like, you don't have

961
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: the right to end this band. You can leave it

962
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 1: and that's fine, you cannot work with me, but you

963
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: can't just say that that we are not a band anymore,

964
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: because we are. I think that was the argument of

965
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 1: who had the right to actually like kill the band.

966
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like in Peter Hook's mind that

967
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: he felt like it was obvious that they were done,

968
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 1: and that's why he felt that he could make this

969
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 1: statement publicly because things had evolved to such a point

970
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 1: in the band where it didn't seem like anyone really

971
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: wanted to work together. But I wonder if, like Sumner,

972
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: and to a lesser extent, you know, Stephen Morris, and

973
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 1: Jillian Gilbert saw an opening here where they're like, well,

974
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,320
Speaker 1: this guy left. He's the guy that is the loudest,

975
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 1: the brashest guy, kind of like the Roger Waters figure,

976
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: I guess, and he's leaving now maybe we can still

977
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: hold on to this valuable brand name and and move forward. Yeah.

978
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: Hook would say that the band had agreed to split

979
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 1: up in February about seven, and he made the actual

980
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: announcement that he made was pretty tame. He said, me

981
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: and Bernard aren't working together anymore, which is you know,

982
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: you can read that. Men know that what you will? Uh.

983
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: So that when Bernard and the rest of the band

984
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 1: released the is like, really, I rate press releases, saying,

985
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: you know, what are you talking about? The band is

986
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: still together. I guess he called Steven Morris and said,

987
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,919
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? We we discussed this. We're

988
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 1: not a band anymore, and cording to Hook at least,

989
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 1: Stephen said, oh, you know me, Hooky, whichever way the

990
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,760
Speaker 1: wind blows, meaning you know, whichever whoever is in charge,

991
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 1: I'll listen to that guy. So it sounds like, yeah,

992
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: like what you said, why would you let this incredibly

993
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 1: potent brand name, uh go to waste. But the weird

994
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: thing was they did for a number of years, right,

995
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: New Order without Hook became Bad Lieutenant for a number

996
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: of years, which I never really understood because it was

997
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: basically New Order with Phil Cunningham and uh I think

998
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,839
Speaker 1: Blurs Alex James was on base for a while. Yeah,

999
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,359
Speaker 1: I mean, to me, this just seems like, Okay, let's

1000
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 1: just give it a shot, let's see if we can

1001
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: do something else and if you know, maybe people will

1002
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 1: like it, which of course they're not going to like it,

1003
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: because you know, New Order at at this point, again,

1004
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: they're this valuable brand, their a legacy act. If you're

1005
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 1: going to go see them, you want to hear True Faith,

1006
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 1: You want to hear Bizarre Love Triangle, you want to

1007
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 1: hear your favorite hits. You don't want to hear Bernard

1008
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: Sumner and Stephen Morris jam and with a dude from Blur.

1009
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: You know, like it's not gonna work. And like that's

1010
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: why no one remembers Bad Lieutenant. No one has said

1011
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,760
Speaker 1: the words bad Lieutenant in reference to Bernard Sumner until

1012
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 1: this podcast. It's been a decade since anyone even uttered

1013
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: that reference. So yeah, to me, it seems like a

1014
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 1: foreground conclusion that they were eventually going to try to

1015
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 1: figure out a way to do this band without Peter Hook,

1016
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 1: which is what happened. I guess that was like two

1017
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,959
Speaker 1: thousand eleven or so. Yeah. Hook goes off to form

1018
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: The Light, which pretty much just is a Joy Division

1019
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: New Orders cover band. There they famously go out and

1020
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 1: play four albums front the Back, which was awesome because

1021
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: it stuff from Closer and never really been performed live,

1022
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 1: so that was really great to hear. And they put

1023
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: out live albums and EPs and stuff. I think they

1024
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 1: only did one EP of studio stuff and that was

1025
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: just joint Division covers. Uh and uh, I guess that

1026
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 1: really piste off Bernie. You know, these were the sacred

1027
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 1: Joy Division songs that weren't to be played live. And

1028
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 1: then Hook was asked about it and he said, oh bullshit.

1029
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:09,919
Speaker 1: Bernard never liked playing the old songs. He thought Joy

1030
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: Division were depressing. Even if I asked him for permission,

1031
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 1: he would have told me to funk off anyway. So

1032
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: Hook is very sort of, you know, rebelliously playing these

1033
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 1: old songs. Meanwhile, New Order reforms with Phil Cunningham on base,

1034
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: and uh, Peter is not happy he puts out a

1035
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 1: statement on I Think It's my Space where he says

1036
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: he's surprised and sad. Everyone knows that New Order without

1037
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: Peter Hook is like Queen without Freddie Mercury or I

1038
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 1: don't know about that, you two without the Edge that

1039
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: I could see that actually. Uh yeah, he's very nice. Yeah,

1040
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 1: I think that's fair. He's very hurt by this. Yeah.

1041
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 1: And but again, as we have seen in other examples,

1042
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: certainly with Pink Floyd, not so much with Talking Heads,

1043
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 1: I mean talking Heads without David Byrne, that doesn't really

1044
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 1: seem to work. But Pink Floyd without Roger Waters, they

1045
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,399
Speaker 1: just rolled forward, and a New Order without Peter Hook,

1046
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 1: they rolled forward. They put out a record. Uh, I

1047
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: guess I was called Music Complete that actually did pretty well.

1048
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 1: And it seems like now in recent years, like Bernard

1049
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 1: Sumner has been more enthusiastic about touring because they've actually

1050
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: become like a pretty big festival band. So uh, which

1051
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 1: I'm sure on some level must have also been maddening

1052
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: to Peter Hook. Didn't he have a thing that like

1053
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 1: he was accusing the bass player in New Order of

1054
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: like miming his parts on stage? Oh yeah, he said that, like,

1055
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 1: if you listen to what's playing over the p A system,

1056
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 1: you'll see that, like his hands are down at the

1057
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,320
Speaker 1: low end of the base. And then yeah, he accused

1058
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 1: him of that, and then I guess Bernie said something like,

1059
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 1: you know, no, Hook used to do that too, that's

1060
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 1: just the Semeth part. It's it's fine. Yeah. I thought

1061
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 1: that was rich coming from a guy who admitted to

1062
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:48,439
Speaker 1: miming DJ sets. But but hey, but yeah, Hook said, yeah,

1063
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: you still hear my parts at concerts. I'm in the

1064
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 1: background like a ghost. This is quote. I think what

1065
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 1: really ends up pissing him off is the royalty situation

1066
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,959
Speaker 1: in New Order, because this is always hard to talk

1067
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 1: about because you get into sort of the byzantine, uh

1068
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 1: you know, sideways and byways of like how music contracts work.

1069
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:15,240
Speaker 1: But essentially, didn't New Order like start a new company

1070
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,320
Speaker 1: without Peter Hook so that they could continue to tour

1071
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 1: and then like just bring Peter Hook's royalty rate down

1072
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: like to like a mini school degree. Yeah, it sounds

1073
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: like Hook was entitled to the same royalty rate that

1074
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 1: he would get for all the New Order songs that

1075
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 1: he'd contributed two years before. But they formed a new

1076
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: company for all the new stuff going forward without him,

1077
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: and they still cut it in I think for one

1078
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 1: point to five percent, which is you know, I mean,

1079
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 1: I don't know much about any of the stuff, but

1080
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:40,959
Speaker 1: it seems pretty generous to give him money for stuff

1081
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 1: he's not even writing or playing on. But Hook made

1082
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: it seem like they went behind my back and cut

1083
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: me out of this band and formed a company. I

1084
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:51,799
Speaker 1: think his lawyer used the analogy of it's like if

1085
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: if Paul and George got together and and I decided

1086
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 1: to form a new company and not tell John like

1087
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: that was how he put it, and he took him

1088
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 1: the court. Yeah, they ended up making this settlement I

1089
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 1: guess in seventeen, and of course the details were not

1090
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: made public, as they never are in these situations. But

1091
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,879
Speaker 1: it seems like, well Peter Hook might have gotten, uh,

1092
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: you know, a measure of financial satisfaction. He's like more

1093
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,359
Speaker 1: aggrieved than ever. Like I read this interview that he did.

1094
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 1: I think this was like like nineteen like not that

1095
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 1: long ago, where he was just talking about how it

1096
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 1: was unforgivable, like what Bernard Sumner did to him, that

1097
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 1: he feels like essentially this band that he helped to

1098
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:33,320
Speaker 1: start was taken away from him. He doesn't have anything

1099
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: to do with their legacy anymore, and he feels betrayed.

1100
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: His quote was to start a band in nineteen eighty

1101
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 1: from the ashes of your lead singer suicide and then

1102
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: have it cruelly taken off you thirty one years later.

1103
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,239
Speaker 1: But the other members of the band, I defy any

1104
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 1: human being not to bary grudge. If it wasn't for

1105
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 1: the wife, I'd probably be in prison right now. I mean, yeah,

1106
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: that's you can't argue with much of that. And he

1107
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 1: he has a lot to vent, and he he vents

1108
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 1: over the course of three memoirs to the tune of

1109
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 1: fifteen hundred pages. Uh So I guess that that's his

1110
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 1: only real legal recourse. And it seems like that is

1111
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 1: where we are right now. That like Hook feels again

1112
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 1: portrayed and Sumner and I guess maybe Stephen Morrison, Jullian

1113
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: Gilbert is a fair to say that they're probably just

1114
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 1: feeling relieved that they don't have to do with Peter

1115
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:28,240
Speaker 1: Hook anymore. Yeah, it sounds like that. I think Bernie

1116
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 1: said in interviews that, you know, being in a band

1117
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,439
Speaker 1: with Peter Hook was not exactly a picnic. So yeah,

1118
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 1: it seems like that they're probably relieved that that that

1119
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: Firecrackers out of the picture. Yeah, and as much as

1120
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 1: I love Peter Hook, I have to agree that, yes,

1121
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 1: it would not be a picnic to be in a

1122
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:44,399
Speaker 1: band with him. And they recently did attributes to Ian

1123
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 1: Curtis for the anniversary of his death, and they couldn't

1124
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:49,320
Speaker 1: even come together for that. They had two separate attributes

1125
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 1: with newly reformed New Order and on one side and

1126
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: Peter Hook and The Light on the other. Yeah, so

1127
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 1: I guess at this point, not even Ian Curtis cannot

1128
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,359
Speaker 1: bring these guys together, which is like a very unfortunate thing.

1129
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 1: But like I said at the top, I feel like

1130
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: a lot of the rivalries that we've talked about have

1131
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 1: somewhat resolved themselves, usually by the end of our episode.

1132
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:13,280
Speaker 1: But the hatred here between these two guys just seems

1133
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 1: like as white hot as it's ever been. Yeah, I

1134
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:17,839
Speaker 1: don't think this has gone away anytime soon. We're gonna

1135
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 1: take a quick break and get a word from our

1136
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 1: sponsor before we get two more rivals. Well we know,

1137
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 1: which is part of the episode where we give the

1138
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 1: pro side of each part of the Revelry. I guess

1139
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 1: we'll do the Peter Hook side first. Yeah. Again, for me,

1140
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: like I said, I'm a Peter Hook fan, I'm biased

1141
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 1: in his regard. I think he's a pretty hilarious guy,

1142
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 1: even though I think it's pretty clear that he's a

1143
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 1: difficult personality. But again, like for me, I just think

1144
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 1: his bass sound is like such a distinctive part of

1145
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 1: this band, and he's a complete original. To me, I

1146
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,399
Speaker 1: think if you take him out of the musical mix

1147
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 1: of this band, they would have maybe been more of

1148
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:00,880
Speaker 1: like a conventional synth pop band. But because he was

1149
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 1: in there, he was able to give maybe that rock

1150
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:04,799
Speaker 1: edge to what they were doing, and it just made

1151
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: them more unique and I think ultimately more influential. Oh yeah, absolutely,

1152
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 1: I think that he's playing as the hallmark of that band.

1153
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 1: He's one of my bass playing heroes. I mean yeah,

1154
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: I think he invented the premise of a lead baseline.

1155
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: I mean it's not only the heartbeat of the song,

1156
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 1: but it's the melody and just as a one of

1157
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 1: rock's great rack on tourism personalities, I think he's up

1158
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:25,799
Speaker 1: there with the Gallaghers and David Crosby, which, again, as

1159
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 1: much as that makes him entertaining to watch and read, uh,

1160
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: probably makes him a nightmare to actually be in a

1161
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 1: band with. So if you go to the pro Sumner side,

1162
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's fair to say that his

1163
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,840
Speaker 1: instinct to push the band forward, like away from punk

1164
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 1: and more toward of like a like a danceable pop sound,

1165
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 1: it seems like that instinct was pretty spot on. I mean,

1166
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 1: like that is what made New Order so huge, and

1167
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 1: I think ultimately like important, I mean, to be fair,

1168
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 1: like his assessment that being in the band with Peter

1169
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: Hook is no picnic as we've said, I mean, I

1170
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:57,319
Speaker 1: think he's probably right, Like it was very difficult to

1171
00:55:57,400 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: be with this guy, especially again like where he was

1172
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 1: wanting them to maybe stay more in the past while

1173
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 1: Peter Hook was pushing them forward. So yeah, as much

1174
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:06,879
Speaker 1: as I love Peter Hook, I'd want to hang out

1175
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:08,919
Speaker 1: with Peter Hook, I think more than anyone anyone else

1176
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 1: in the band. In a way, I feel like, well,

1177
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 1: it makes sense that that Bernard Sumner ultimately is the

1178
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 1: leader of this group. Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean I

1179
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 1: think he was. He was the innovator. I think he

1180
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 1: found a way forward that was definitely unique, but without

1181
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: alienating fans of of what had come before. And Joy

1182
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 1: Division and We he said earlier, it just seems like

1183
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:27,359
Speaker 1: genuinely a good guy. And like his memoir he talks

1184
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 1: a lot about like wanting to keep balanced family life

1185
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 1: with professional life. I don't know, he seems like the

1186
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:33,839
Speaker 1: most sane member of the group. I would say too,

1187
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 1: but it doesn't have Peter Hook's pension for drama. So

1188
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 1: if you look at these two guys together, I mean,

1189
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:39,759
Speaker 1: I'll just repeat what I said at the top. I mean,

1190
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:43,160
Speaker 1: this is the power center of two of the greatest

1191
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 1: post punk bands of all time, Joy Division and New Order. Like,

1192
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 1: if you're writing the history of alternative and indie music,

1193
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 1: you have to write a lot about those two bands,

1194
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 1: and like, these two guys were at the center of

1195
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:56,839
Speaker 1: both of them. And you know, when they're on their own,

1196
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 1: you end up with groups like Electronic and Revenge and

1197
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 1: The Lights and Bad Lieutenant, you know, which are not

1198
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:06,319
Speaker 1: groups that anyone cares about. But you put these guys

1199
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 1: together and you end up with real magic. So for

1200
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 1: all of the white hot hatred that still exists between

1201
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:14,839
Speaker 1: these two fellas together, they're just better than they are

1202
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 1: when they're apart. Yeah, I mean, Hook said that himself

1203
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 1: a couple of years back in the interview, said, I've

1204
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 1: come to the conclusion that it's chemistry that makes you

1205
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 1: write great music is the chemistry that will tear you apart.

1206
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 1: It's like a relationship. The bit that attracts you is

1207
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 1: the bit that will drive you apart after a while.

1208
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 1: And I've come to the conclusion that people who write

1209
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: great music together should not play it. They should give

1210
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 1: it to somebody else to play. And uh, yeah, kind

1211
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 1: of what's happening now, I guess yeah, I think he's right,

1212
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 1: But again, it's never gonna happen. I cannot imagine a

1213
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: situation where these two guys will ever play music together.

1214
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely not, which is which is sad. This is probably,

1215
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 1: i'd say, maybe up there with talking heads in terms of,

1216
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 1: you know, pigs fly kind of likelihood. Well, Jordan, I

1217
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 1: hope that love will never tear us apart or hatred

1218
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 1: or whatever the case may be, because we have so

1219
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:06,439
Speaker 1: many more rivalries and beefs and feuds to talk about

1220
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 1: on this show. So hopefully that won't happen because we

1221
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 1: have just so much more to talk about on this show,

1222
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 1: So next week join us again for more beefs and

1223
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 1: feuds and long super resentments here on Rivals So Long.

1224
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. The executive

1225
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 1: producers are Shawn Tytone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers

1226
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 1: are Taylor Chicoin and Tristan McNeil. The producer is Joel

1227
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 1: hat Staff. I'm Jordan's Run Talk and I'm Stephen Hyden.

1228
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 1: If you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave

1229
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 1: us a review. For more podcast for my heart Radio,

1230
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1231
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows