1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Hey, they are American history hotliners. It's great to be 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: talking with you again, and I just want to say 3 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: that today's episode is a little different. We've been doing 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 1: this show for nearly a year now, and thanks for 5 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: all the amazing questions. Some of them are just as 6 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: relevant as when you first asked them. So I want 7 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 1: to revisit a conversation I had back in August with 8 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Rosen. He was the CEO of the National Constitution 9 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: Center at the time, and he was just getting ready 10 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: to publish a new book titled The Pursuit of Liberty, 11 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: How Hamilton versus Jefferson ignited the lasting battle over power 12 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: in America. We talked about whether or not the Constitution 13 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 1: has guardrails to protect us from a dictator. I told 14 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: you the questions are still relevant. I started that conversation 15 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: by asking Jeffrey to help us understand the mindset of 16 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: the framers of the Constitution when they wrote it. How 17 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: worried were they about the overturning of elections or a 18 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: president acting life like a monarch or a dictator. 19 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 2: It's a great question, and the founders were very worried 20 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 2: about demagogues and dictators. I have a new book out 21 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 2: on how the battle between Hamilton and Jefferson defines all 22 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 2: of American history, and it starts with the following scene. 23 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 2: It's Jefferson's house, President Washington's away and he invites the 24 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 2: whole cabinet over. Hamilton looks around the room and says, 25 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 2: who are those three guys on the wall. Jefferson says, 26 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 2: those are my three greatest men in history, John Locke, 27 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 2: Francis Bacon, and Isaac Newton. Hamilton pauses, and then he says, 28 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 2: the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar. And 29 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 2: Jefferson writes in his diary this proves that Hamilton is 30 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: for a dictator based on corruption, and then he goes 31 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 2: on to found the Democratic Republican Party in supposed opposition 32 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 2: to the monarchical dictatorial ambitions of Hamilton and the Federalists. 33 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 2: Now it's such a great story because Hamilton was almost 34 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: certainly joking, and he spends his whole career warning of 35 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 2: a Caesar like dictator who will ride in and fan 36 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 2: the passions of the mob. In fact, the whole Constitutional 37 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 2: Convention is called in response to Shay's rebellion the mob 38 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 2: violence in western Massachusetts, where farmers are mobbing the Federal courthouses, 39 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 2: and Hamilton writes in the Federal's papers, imagine that Chay's 40 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 2: rebellion had been headed by a Caesar or a Cromwell, 41 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: it would have led to the subversion of the republic. So, 42 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 2: in other words, both Hamilton and Jefferson are centrally concerned 43 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 2: about a Caesar like demagogue who will flatter the people, 44 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:38,839 Speaker 2: subvert Republican institutions, and install himself as a dictator. Both 45 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 2: Hamilton and Jefferson think that they've found such a would 46 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 2: be Caesar in Aaron Burr. And in fact, Hamilton says, 47 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 2: if we have a crypto Caesar or an embryo Caesar, 48 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 2: tis Burr. And they think that Burr is conspiring to 49 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 2: foment insurrection in Spanish Louisiana and install himself as the 50 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 2: dictator of newly established American state. And that's why Hamilton 51 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: dies in the duel, and that's why Jefferson prosecutes Burr 52 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 2: for treason. So Burr is the warning sign of someone 53 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 2: who will subvert American democracy. And what's the danger of 54 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 2: an Aaron Burr? He subverts the separation of powers and 55 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: wants to call off elections, And therefore the answer to 56 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 2: Susanna's great question is what are the founders put in 57 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: the Constitution to prevent a Caesar like dictator? The separation 58 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: of powers, that is the most important constitutional feature. 59 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: All right, So let's talk about those separations of powers. 60 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: There's horizontal separation and vertical separation, right, horizontal checks and balances, 61 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: vertical federal state. Can you describe those for us? 62 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 2: Absolutely? The big idea is that the power belongs to 63 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 2: the people. We, the people of the United States, create 64 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 2: the Constitution. We have the sovereign power. We parcel out 65 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: bits of that power to the three branches of the 66 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: federal government, the executive, the legislative, and the judiciary. And 67 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 2: we also divide it between the federal government and the 68 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 2: states to ensure that none of our representatives can speak 69 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 2: in our name. And our ultimate power is embodied in 70 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 2: the Constitution itself. So the very first draft of the Constitution, 71 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 2: drafted by the Committee of Detail, and it's in the 72 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: handwriting of James Wilson of Pennsylvania, says resolved that the 73 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,239 Speaker 2: government of the United States shall consist of a legislative, executive, 74 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 2: and judicial branch. That's it. It's not we the people. 75 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: It's not why, it's just separation of powers. And this 76 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 2: is coming from Montesquieu, who's the French political philosopher who's 77 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 2: quoted more than anyone else at the Constitutional Convention. And 78 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 2: Montesquieu says, all pure republics always degenerate into their bad form. 79 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: So a pure anarchy will degenerate it to tyranny, aristocracy 80 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 2: into oligarchy, democracy into the mob. You have to have 81 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 2: mixed governments where you separate powers and blend and balance 82 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 2: them against each other to prevent any one group from 83 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: getting all the power and consolidating power. So that the 84 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,679 Speaker 2: president isn't a king, so that he can't order people 85 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 2: in jail on his own, says, so he can't make 86 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 2: the country go to war, so he can't have taxation 87 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 2: without representation. This is the whole point of the revolution, 88 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 2: is to prevent a president from becoming like King George 89 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: and becoming a dictator. So that's the big idea. Separate 90 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 2: the legislative, executive and judicial power, make them independent of 91 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 2: each other, so that ambition can be made to counteract ambition, 92 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 2: as James Madison so famously put it in the Federalist Papers, 93 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 2: and will ensure that the ultimate power remains in the people. 94 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: Did the Founders see these separated powers legislative, executive, judicial 95 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:58,799 Speaker 1: as being equal. 96 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 2: They were all independent, but in practice the Founders feared 97 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 2: and believed that the most dangerous of the three branches 98 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: would be Congress. James Madison said that Congress would suck 99 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 2: all power into its impetuous vortex. As he memorably put it, 100 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 2: he thought that the executive would have the power to 101 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 2: execute Congress's laws, but would be a chief magistrate, vigorous 102 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 2: but constrained. And the judiciary was going to be the 103 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 2: least dangerous branch, as Alexander Hamilton put it in Federalst. 104 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 2: Seventy eight, because it had neither person nor sword. It 105 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 2: couldn't force its judgments to be enforced, It couldn't make 106 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 2: the president listen to it. It relied on legitimacy and 107 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 2: on the wilful acquiescence of the other two branches. 108 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: So let's play this scenario out. According to the Founders, 109 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: what would happen if an executive defied a judicial decision, 110 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: if the president defied theme the Supreme Court decision. You 111 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: just said, the Supreme Court does not have a sword. 112 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: They have no way to really enforce. 113 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 2: This is the great dilemma and the great concern of 114 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court ever since the beginning. John Marshall becomes 115 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 2: Chief Justice. He has a rivalry with his distant relative, 116 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: Thomas Jefferson, who he cordially despises, and he's really afraid 117 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 2: if he orders Jefferson to do something Jefferson doesn't want 118 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 2: to do, Jefferson's gonna ignore him, and it'll reveal the 119 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: Judiciary to be weak. On the other hand, Marshall can't 120 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: refuse to confront Jefferson at all, because that'll show that 121 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 2: the Judiciary has no power. Marshall comes up with a 122 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 2: brilliant solution. He asserts the court's power to strike down 123 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: on constitutional laws, but he refuses to order Jefferson to 124 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 2: do something he knows Jefferson and ignore, because, as Marshall says, 125 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 2: I'm not fond of butting my head against a wall 126 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: in sport. He doesn't want to fight battles he can lose, 127 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 2: and it's this delicate combination of diplomacy and assertiveness that 128 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: makes Marshall the greatest Chief Justice. He establishes the Court 129 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 2: as a strong and equal branch of government. But this 130 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 2: tension has remained throughout American history, and there's always the danger, 131 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 2: the risk that presidents won't listen to the Court. Thankfully, 132 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 2: we have never in all of American history had a 133 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:23,119 Speaker 2: president who's ignored an unambiguous order of the Supreme Court. 134 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 2: That would be a constitutional crisis, and thankfully it hasn't 135 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 2: happened yet. 136 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: Ten nineteen am. This is American History Hotline. I'm your 137 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: host Bob Crawford. Today, my guest is Jeffrey Rosen, President 138 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: and CEO of the National Constitution Center. We're talking about 139 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: the guardrails of the US Constitution. Let's talk about precedents 140 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: and norms, things not written in the Constitution, but practices 141 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: that honor and spirit. What was the power of George 142 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: Washington's voluntary stepping down from office. 143 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 2: The power was invaluable. It was the most important precedent 144 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 2: in the entire early Republic. When King George contemplated the 145 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 2: fact that Washington might voluntarily step down, he said, if 146 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 2: he does that, he'll be the greatest man in the world. 147 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 2: And Washington did it. His model is the great Roman 148 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 2: general Cincinnatus, who reluctantly serves the state and at the 149 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 2: earliest opportunity, voluntarily relinquishes power so he can go back 150 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 2: to his farm. And Washington could at any point have 151 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 2: established himself as a dictator at Newburgh. And in seventeen 152 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 2: eighty three there's calls on him to lead a military 153 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 2: coup and to make himself general for life. He declines 154 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 2: to do that. On the contrary, he mounts a wooden 155 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 2: platform called the Temple of Virtue. He has Addison's Cato, 156 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 2: a play performed for the troops, praising the mild virtues 157 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 2: of calm philosophy. Can you imagine? And then he appeals 158 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 2: to the troop for patients and temperance, and so they 159 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:00,599 Speaker 2: can just hold on a little bit. He'll ensure that 160 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: they're paid, and he takes out he can't read the 161 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: letter he's trying to read to the troops. He takes 162 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 2: out his reading glasses and says, forgive me, gentlemen, I've 163 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 2: grown old in your service. Now I've grown almost blind. 164 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 2: The soldiers weep because they've never seen him confess weakness before. 165 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 2: And it's that combination of remarkable self mastery, self restraint, 166 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 2: and authority that makes Washington the greatest man of his age. 167 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:26,359 Speaker 1: How much of our federal government is norms versus constitutional law. 168 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 2: Well, it's a complicated blend of both. It's hard to 169 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 2: parcel out the exact proportion, but there's no doubt that 170 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 2: the law rests on norms, and the most important norms 171 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 2: are not written in law. We just identified the norm 172 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 2: that presidents voluntarily step down at the end of their term. 173 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 2: It's not written in the constitution that they have to, 174 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: but presidents have more or less since Washington voluntarily relinquished power, 175 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 2: And there are so many and the norm that judicial 176 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 2: decisions are obeyed. Eisenhower's decision to send the airborne troops 177 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 2: to back up the court's order that you had to 178 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 2: integrate the school of Little Rock. He didn't have to 179 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 2: do that. The Constitution didn't make him, but he thought 180 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 2: that his job to execute the law included the job 181 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 2: of sending troops to enforce the unambiguous orders of the 182 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 2: US Supreme Court. It really shows how incredibly resilient our 183 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 2: system is, but also how delicate, how fragile it is, 184 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 2: how it really does depend on the virtue of our 185 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 2: public officials. Virtue means self restraint, moderation, compromise, tranquility, balance. 186 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 2: Recognizing that it's the willingness to disagree without being disagreeable, 187 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 2: to listen to different points of view. Anytime one branch 188 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 2: pushes its power too far, the whole system risks collapsing. 189 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: What are some of you for your favorite examples of 190 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: when the Constitution was put to the test and worked. 191 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 2: The first great example is the election of eighteen hundred. 192 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 2: The political parties who are up and running. Jefferson has 193 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 2: created the Democratic Republicans, Adams for the Federalists. It's a 194 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 2: contested election, decided by Hamilton's last minute decision to side 195 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 2: with Jefferson rather than Burr. You know, it almost brings 196 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: the country to its knees. But what happens. Adams voluntarily 197 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 2: surrenders power, although he does leave early in the morning 198 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 2: before the inauguration. The system works, and then the most 199 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 2: moving ending a few years later, Adams and Jefferson reconcile. 200 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: They have one of the most beautiful correspondences in American history, 201 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 2: where they talk about their shared love for philosophy, for 202 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 2: the Bible, and for the wisdom of the ages. And 203 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 2: then they both die on the same day, July fourth, 204 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 2: eighteen twenty six, with Adams whispering Jefferson still lives, not 205 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 2: realizing Jefferson had died a few hours earlier. That shows 206 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,959 Speaker 2: on the willingness of Americans to engage with even their 207 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 2: greatest political opponents. I end the book on Hamilton and 208 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 2: Jefferson with the remarkable fact that after Hamilton died in 209 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 2: the duel, Jefferson put his bust next to Jefferson's own 210 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 2: bust in the entrance hall of Monticello. You can see 211 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 2: it today if you go there. And whenever he would 212 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 2: pass it, Jefferson would smile and say, opposed in life 213 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 2: as in death. For him, Hamilton was not a hated 214 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 2: enemy to be destroyed, but a respected opponent to be engaged. 215 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 2: And he signaled that respect by putting Hamilton's bust in 216 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 2: the entrance hall. And then there are so many other 217 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 2: inspiring examples of the system holding and the center holding 218 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,959 Speaker 2: and because the norms hold. Think of Andrew Jackson, elected 219 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 2: as the great Populist. He's an opponent of the Bank 220 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: of the United States. He says, the bank is trying 221 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 2: to kill me, but I will kill it. You might 222 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 2: have thought he'd be a friend of secession because of 223 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,839 Speaker 2: his devotion to Jefferson and states rights. But when South 224 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 2: Carolina issued its a nullification proclamation and asserted its right 225 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 2: to refuse to obey federal laws who disagreed with like 226 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 2: they hated Tariff of Abominations of eighteen twenty nine. Jackson, 227 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 2: in this dramatic toast, nobly says liberty and union they 228 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 2: must be preserved, and by signaling his devotion to union 229 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 2: rather than secession, he preserves the Union. And then think 230 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 2: of the greatest testing in American history, the Great Secession Crisis. 231 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 2: Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Douglas have debated. Lincoln wins the 232 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 2: contested election of eighteen sixty. It's been a flight, a 233 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 2: fight unlike any other. But what does Douglas do after 234 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: he loses the election. He pledges his allegiance to Lincoln 235 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: and to Union, and he holds Lincoln during the inaugural speech. 236 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 2: It's just so moving that that's how much of a 237 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 2: patriot is. And Douglas dies soon after, and his last 238 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 2: whispered words or that his own sons will defend the 239 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 2: Union in the face of secession. We could keep going, 240 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 2: but it really is inspiring that at our moments of 241 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: greatest testing, patriotic presidents have signaled their devotion to union 242 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 2: and to the Constitution of the United States. 243 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: This is American History Hotline. I'm your host Bob Crawford. 244 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: Today my guest is Jeffrey Rosen. His forthcoming book is 245 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: The Pursuit of Liberty. How Hamilton versus Jefferson ignited the 246 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: lasting battle over power in America. We're talking about the 247 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: United States Constitution and how much of a beating it 248 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: can withstand. We've talked about how examples of where the 249 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: Constitution held right, where the checks and balances did their job. 250 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: What are some examples that you can think of where 251 00:15:59,280 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: they did not. 252 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 2: Well. The biggest, of course, is the Civil War and 253 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 2: the Southern States seceded. Lincoln denied their constitutional right to 254 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 2: secede and said he had not only the right, but 255 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 2: the duty to preserve the Union. Lincoln's position was based 256 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 2: on his view that we, the people of the entire 257 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 2: United States, had made the constitution. In fact, that the 258 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 2: original Union arose from the Declaration of Independence and its 259 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 2: assertion that all men are created equal, which created an 260 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 2: American nation. The Southern States insisted that as sovereign states, 261 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 2: they could withdraw from the Union, and the war came. 262 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 2: As Lincoln said, establishing the proposition that the Union was indissoluble. 263 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 2: Since then, we've had great testing moments, mostly involving political 264 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 2: violence and insurrection. When you think about insurrection in the US, 265 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 2: it's remarkable how relatively rare political violence has been, As 266 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 2: the great historian Richard Hofstadter said in his Definitive History 267 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 2: of Political Violence, Political violence in the US after the 268 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 2: Revolution started with Shay's Rebellion, those farmers in western Massachusetts 269 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 2: mobbing the federal courthouses. It continued with the Whisky Rebellion, 270 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 2: once again, dissatisfied farmers in the back country of Pennsylvania 271 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:31,719 Speaker 2: rebelling against Hamilton's hated whiskey tax, and they attack the 272 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 2: federal tax collector and tar and featherham and eventually Washington 273 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 2: has to go on horseback with Hamilton at his side. 274 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 2: The only time a US president has led a military charge, 275 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 2: goes to Carlisle, Pennsylvania. The opposition melts away, and Washington 276 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 2: and Man pardons most of the rebels. Jefferson wants to 277 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 2: pardon and forgive insurrectionists at every stage. He says that 278 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 2: the blood of liberty has to be moist with revolution. 279 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 2: He kind of endorses the French Revolution in a rather 280 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 2: chilling endorsement of violence, showing the difference between Hamilton and 281 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 2: Jefferson on that question. And then when you think about 282 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 2: political violence, of course erupted brutally during the Civil War, 283 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: but then after the Civil War, we saw more violence 284 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 2: in opposition to reconstruction and in the bloody Battle of 285 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 2: New Orleans of eighteen seventy four, where there's armed conflict 286 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 2: in the streets over who's been elected governor. And then 287 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 2: in the racist reaction to reconstruction legislation like the Colfax massacre, 288 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 2: where African Americans are brutally murdered trying to defend state 289 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 2: buildings after a legitimate election, we see what the historian 290 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 2: Jefferson Coli calls white resistance to federal power basically, which 291 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 2: can take the form of violence at times. That continued 292 00:18:55,560 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 2: in the nineteen twenties with anti immigrant violence, and then 293 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 2: in during the Civil Rights era after Brown v. Board 294 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 2: of Education, when Southern separatists didn't want to obey the 295 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 2: Supreme Court, they tried to block the integration of the 296 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 2: schools as well as violently resisting voting rights, and we 297 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: had dramas ranging from Little Rock to Pettus Bridge in 298 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:28,959 Speaker 2: all of these cases of violence, it was crucial that 299 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: the federal government come down on the side of Union, 300 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 2: and it was only Lincoln's decision to enforce Union, and 301 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 2: Grant's decision initially to enforce reconstruction, and Lyndon Johnson's decision 302 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 2: to enforce civil rights, Eisenhower's decision to send the troops 303 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 2: that ultimately led to the triumph of Union. But it 304 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 2: reminds us that the point of the Constitution is to 305 00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 2: constrain politics with principle in order to avoid violence. We 306 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 2: abandon our devotion to the Constitution and the rule of law, 307 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 2: then violence can result. 308 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 1: We talked about the weakness of the judicial branch to 309 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 1: enforce its decisions. Let's talk about the political recaliation. Does 310 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: the constitution stop a president from using his power against 311 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: his political rivals. 312 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: That's a good question, and the answer is not. Explicitly 313 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 2: those are norms. There's a norm in the Justice department 314 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 2: of a political prosecutions, but ultimately the president has the 315 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 2: executive power. He controls prosecutions if he uses them in 316 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 2: a treasonous or corrupt way. The founders anticipated that the 317 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 2: remedy would be impeachment. They were very afraid of foreign corruption, 318 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 2: in particular, that might enlist a corrupt president to take 319 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 2: bribes and perhaps to wield power on his own back 320 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 2: half for self interested reasons. But they believed that impeachment 321 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 2: for treason, bribery, or other high crimes or misdemeanors, as 322 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 2: the language of the impeachment clause originally put, it would 323 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 2: ensure that patriotic congress people would remove from office any 324 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 2: corrupt or treason as president. 325 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: What about a situation, a scenario where one political party 326 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 1: orchestrates a prolonged attempt to take over the government at 327 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: every level and in every branch. It installs loyalists in 328 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: every top position. The government becomes a shadow democracy. Did 329 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,360 Speaker 1: the Framers anticipate a scenario like that. 330 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 2: They did not, because they did not anticipate political parties. 331 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 2: They imagined that the real threat was what they called faction. 332 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 2: And James Madison defines a faction as any group, a 333 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 2: majority or a minority, animated by passion rather than reason, 334 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 2: devoted to self interest rather than the public good. Now, 335 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 2: pretty soon Madison and Jefferson presided over the creation of 336 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 2: the first political party, the Democratic Republican Party, in opposition 337 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 2: to the Federalists. Madison came to see parties as useful 338 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 2: ways of aggregating different political interests and integrated them into 339 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 2: the system. Thought that in productive ways they could ensure 340 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 2: a clash of principle rather than pure politics. However, the 341 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 2: whole system depends on the separation of powers, which we 342 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 2: started talking about, and the founders did not anticipate that Congress, 343 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 2: for example, would stop checking the president because of partisan loyalty. 344 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 2: They thought Congress will assert its constitutional progres and the 345 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 2: judiciary also will independently enforce the Constitution and not be 346 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 2: taken over by any particular faction. So the whole system 347 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 2: depends on the separation of powers. 348 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: Next year, we're going to celebrate our nation's two hundred 349 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: and fiftieth anniversary. The Constitution's about two hundred and forty 350 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: years old, roughly. I remember Harriet Martineau, who was a 351 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: British journalist who visited the United States in the mid 352 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: eighteen thirties. She visited with the elderly president, former President Madison, 353 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: and she wrote something to the extent of, even if 354 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: the United States only last this fifty years, the Constitution's 355 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: been in place at that point, Even if it only 356 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: lasts fifty years. It is the greatest achievement of humankind. 357 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: Here we are trying to get to two hundred and 358 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: forty for the Constitution, trying to get to two hundred 359 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: and fifty for the United States. Were the founders optimistic 360 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: about the longevity of the nation? 361 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 2: Great question in great quotation from Harriet Martineau, And she's 362 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 2: absolutely right. The founding of America on the principles of liberty, equality, 363 00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 2: and government by consent is the most inspiring achievement for 364 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 2: liberty in human history. Were the founders optimistic that it 365 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 2: would succeed? No, they were not optimistic, all of them, 366 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 2: for various reasons. Feared the fragility of the Republic. Washington 367 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 2: fears faction and the rise of the new political parties. 368 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 2: Jefferson rightly fears civil war over slavery, which he sees 369 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 2: like a tolling bell in the night. Hamilton thinks the 370 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 2: executive isn't strong enough to defend America. Adams has a 371 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 2: very dark view of human nature and preciently predicts the 372 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 2: dangers of financial oligarchy and thinks that rule by elites 373 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 2: may degenerate to threaten liberty. Only Madison's a little more 374 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 2: optimistic because he both expects less of the system, which 375 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 2: he thinks will check and balance passion. But Madison does 376 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 2: put a lot of faith in a new media technology, 377 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 2: the broadside Press, which allows citizens to read complication arguments 378 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 2: like the Federalist papers, and in the newspapers to discuss 379 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 2: them with their representatives, never to talk directly to the president. 380 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 2: The idea of a tweeting president as a Madisonian nightmare. 381 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 2: But through deep reading and deliberation, he hopes that reason 382 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 2: will slowly spread across the land, and a new class 383 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 2: of enlightened statesman, he calls the literati, will ensure the 384 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 2: triumph of reason over passion. Now, even as I describe 385 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 2: that Madisonian hope, it seems like we're kind of far 386 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 2: from that vision, which really reminds us of the urgent 387 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 2: importance of civic education. For all the founders. Everything turns 388 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 2: on the citizens and on your willingness to educate yourselves. 389 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 2: To learn about American history, the principles of the Constitution, 390 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 2: how to deliberate without descending it to violence, how to 391 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 2: disagree without being disagreeable, and most importantly, to keep the 392 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 2: principles of the Declaration and the Constitution before our eyes 393 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 2: and in our minds and hearts at every moment you 394 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 2: meant Harriet Martineau and Madison in the eighteen thirties. There's 395 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 2: another moment just a few years later in eighteen thirty nine, 396 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 2: where John Quincy Adams, who's another hero of both of ours, 397 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 2: I know, gives a speech on the jubilee of the Constitution, 398 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 2: and it's Washington's fiftieth anniversary of his inauguration, and Adams 399 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 2: fears civil war which is brimming on the horizon, and 400 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 2: he says, we are going to degenerate into violence unless 401 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 2: we study and keep the principles of the Declaration and 402 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 2: the Constitution. And then, in this amazing moment, he quotes 403 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 2: the Book of Deuteronomy from the Hebrew Bible and says, 404 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 2: of the principles of the Declaration of the Constitution. Take 405 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 2: these principles as frontlets between your eyes, place them upon 406 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 2: your hands and your arms. Whisper them to your children 407 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 2: before you speak. Make them the principles of your political salvation. 408 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 2: So that's how important it is for John Quincy Adams 409 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 2: that we learn about and study the principles of the 410 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 2: Declaration and the Constitution. If we do that, he believes 411 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 2: that the Union will prevail and if we don't, we 412 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 2: will degenerate into civil war. 413 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: I always John Quincy Adams and Jeffrey Rosen to have 414 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: the last word. I've been talking with Jeffrey Rosen. He's 415 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 1: the President and CEO of the National Constitution Center. His 416 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: forthcoming book, The Pursuit of Liberty, How Hamilton versus Jefferson 417 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 1: ignited the lasting battle over power in America. Check it out. Jeffrey, 418 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: thanks for joining us today on American History Hotline. 419 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. 420 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: You've been listening to American History Hotline, a production of 421 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts and Scratch Track Productions. The show's executive producer 422 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: is James Morrison. Our executive producers from iHeart are Jordan 423 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: Runtall and Jason English. Original music composed by me Bob Crawford. 424 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: Please keep in touch. Our email is Americanhistory Hotline at 425 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: gmail dot com. If you like the show, please tell 426 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: your friends and leave us a review in Apple Podcast. 427 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bob Crawford. Feel free to hit me 428 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: up on social media to ask a history question or 429 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: to let me know what you think of the show. 430 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: You can find me at Bob Crawford base, Thanks so 431 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: much for listening, See you next week.