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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast

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Speaker 2: about Steve Jobs. You know, the founder, co founder of

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Speaker 2: Apple and in a lot of ways, the founder of

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Speaker 2: a lot of the most irritating parts of our modern world.

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Speaker 2: The guy Sam Altman pretends to be when he looks

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Speaker 2: in the mirror in the morning. The guy Elizabeth Holmes

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Speaker 2: pretended to be when she was executing one of the

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Speaker 2: most infamous cons in corporate history. For someone who's not

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Speaker 2: a con artist or Elizabeth Holmes, last time I checked Exitron, Hello,

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Speaker 2: and is it true that you are not, in fact

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth Holmes.

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Speaker 3: I'm not Elizabeth Holmes. A lot of people ask me this.

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Speaker 3: I am not Elizabeth Holmes. How do you feel about turtlenecks. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 3: not for me. It makes me look weird, makes me

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Speaker 3: look fatter than I usually am.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, Sophie, let's try to get back on the

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Speaker 2: phone with Elizabeth Holmes. Though I do want a green

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Speaker 2: light green light her podcast.

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Speaker 3: Still I wish, Yeah, I wish I could have offline.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great shack. I love to talk to her.

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Speaker 3: Hello. Yes, it's me Elizabeth Holmes.

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Speaker 2: It's time to give her another chance. So when we

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Speaker 2: last left off right, Steve has gone and come back

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Speaker 2: from India. He's stolen a bunch of money from his

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Speaker 2: best friend, Steve Wosneyak, who's the guy who actually knows

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Speaker 2: how to do the stuff that Steve is getting paid for,

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Speaker 2: and he has some plans for that money. He's going

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Speaker 2: to have some plans for that money. So the thing

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Speaker 2: that's also happening at this time nineteen seventy five that's

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Speaker 2: kind of most noteworthy in the computer world is that

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Speaker 2: al Taire has released the eighty eight hundred micro computer,

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Speaker 2: now the all Tear eighty eight hundred. You would not

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Speaker 2: call it useful in terms that modern computers are useful for, right.

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Speaker 2: It is not a thing that you're going to get

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Speaker 2: a huge amount of productive work out of. But what's

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Speaker 2: noteworthy about it is that it's basically the first product

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Speaker 2: that you can buy a symbol that will give a

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Speaker 2: regular individual. You still need a lot more knowledge about

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Speaker 2: stuff like soldering and whatnot than like a normal person has,

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Speaker 2: but a relatively normal person can buy the Altair eighty

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Speaker 2: eight hundred a symbol it and have a computer that

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Speaker 2: you don't have to be super rich or working for

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Speaker 2: a large corporation to have access to right. So, even

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Speaker 2: though this device is we would call this extremely limited

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Speaker 2: in modern terms, it is a foundational moment for modern

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Speaker 2: big tech. Bill Gates reads an ad for the Altair

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Speaker 2: eighty eight hundred and this causes him to drop out

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Speaker 2: of Harvard and start Microsoft Right, which initially codes software

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Speaker 2: for the Altair. Wosniak has a different reaction to seeing

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Speaker 2: this product advertised because, unlike Bill Gates, Wosniak is an

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Speaker 2: actual genius, and his immediate reaction to hearing about this

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Speaker 2: is like, well, fuck, I've built computers that are as

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Speaker 2: good as this for fun at home, Like this isn't

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Speaker 2: that impressive? I could make something better than this, right,

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Speaker 2: And in fact he can. He's about to, you know.

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Speaker 2: So he talks to Steve Jobs about this, because he

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Speaker 2: does about everything. Steve is his best friend, and we

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Speaker 2: can kind of imagine Steve Jobs like steepling his hands

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Speaker 2: like the Grinch while his lips curl up into a

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Speaker 2: big sea being up the place too. Oh absolutely yes,

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Speaker 2: smelling so bad now, Jobs in Wosniak both would sometimes

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Speaker 2: attend meetings of a group called the Homebrew Computer Club.

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Speaker 2: Jobs is a lot less technical, right, and he's not

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Speaker 2: really interested in exploring what this new tech can do,

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Speaker 2: which is why Wosniak is into it, right. But he

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Speaker 2: does see the club as a potential test market, and

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Speaker 2: he and Waws work out a plan to sell circuit

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Speaker 2: boards that people can make into micro computers. This works

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Speaker 2: pretty well, This gets them enough money that Jobs decides

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Speaker 2: the next step is to form a proper corporation and

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Speaker 2: decide to get funding to put out a device of

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Speaker 2: their own, which is going to be like the first

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Speaker 2: true personal computer. Right, has a little bit debate, do

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Speaker 2: you consider like the chipset basically that Wosniak puts together

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Speaker 2: first the first person computer or this divi But either way,

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Speaker 2: it's not really a thing that people can buy at

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Speaker 2: this point, right, Wosniak is going to have to make this,

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Speaker 2: and it's extremely unclear as to whether or not it's

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Speaker 2: really possible to do this at a price point that

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Speaker 2: people can afford, and whether they'd be able to produce

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Speaker 2: such a device at all. Jobs ignores the fact that

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Speaker 2: it's not really clear if this can be done. His

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Speaker 2: role in this is to motivate Wosniak to figure out

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Speaker 2: how to do it right and at the same time

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Speaker 2: convince wealthier and more experienced people to get on board

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Speaker 2: and help them figure out how to actually like, produce

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Speaker 2: and sell a product. So at this stage his role here,

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Speaker 2: he's effectively being a con man, right. He needs to

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Speaker 2: get people to buy into a vision that is far

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Speaker 2: from proven by basically telling them, oh, yeah, we already

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Speaker 2: have this figured out, when Wosneiac does not really have

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Speaker 2: the device figured out yet, you know, and that is

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Speaker 2: he is kind of doing a con here, right, It's

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Speaker 2: one that's going to work out.

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Speaker 3: What would otherwise be known today as just stought up funding.

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Speaker 2: Yes, startup funding. This is how it all works. Now,

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Speaker 2: this is what Elizabeth Holmes does, Right, She doesn't know

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Speaker 2: how to make a blood testing device. She finds a

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Speaker 2: guy who is a genius that she thinks is her Wosniak,

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Speaker 2: and she sees her job as if I've got to

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Speaker 2: keep the lie going until he figures out how to

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Speaker 2: make the product. Jobs is doing the same thing. He's

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Speaker 2: just doing it with a much more modest kind of development. Right.

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Speaker 2: They're a lot closer to the personal computer when he

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Speaker 2: starts making these promises than we were to a blood

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Speaker 2: testing device like the one Holmes was promising, which may

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Speaker 2: never be possible to be fair like, that may not

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Speaker 2: be a thing we ever do, just because of some

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Speaker 2: certain limitations in the way Blood is. I'm not an

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Speaker 2: expert on this stuff, but they sure in a blood guy.

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Speaker 2: But you can see what she is doing is pattern

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Speaker 2: off of what Jobs did. But he is better at

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Speaker 2: judging what kind of risks to take, right, because this

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Speaker 2: is an achievable risk. And in fact, Wosniak is going

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Speaker 2: to make the thing that he's promising. Everybody while is

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Speaker 2: going to make. And there's an interesting quote in Isaacson's

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Speaker 2: book from Noah Bushnell, who's jobs as old boss at

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Speaker 2: Atari and something of a mentor to Jobs quote, There's

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Speaker 2: something indefinable in an entrepreneur, and I saw that in Steve.

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Speaker 2: He was interested not just in engineering but also in

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Speaker 2: business aspects. I taught him that if you act like

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Speaker 2: you can do something, then it will work. I told him,

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Speaker 2: pretend to be completely in control, and people will assume

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Speaker 2: that you are. And that is how all of these

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Speaker 2: people are. That is what Steve is going to do. Atari,

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Speaker 2: by the way, is going to go tits up not

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Speaker 2: long after this, in part because of some of the

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Speaker 2: decisions Bushnell makes. But this is the attitude that Jobs embraces,

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Speaker 2: and the attitude that everyone who follows him is going

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Speaker 2: to take on right, like move fast and break things,

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Speaker 2: make promises that you don't know if you can keep.

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Speaker 2: You know, what matters is keeping balls.

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Speaker 3: In the h also, I think. But that's the thing.

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Speaker 3: I think Jobs's big difference and the reason that puppeting

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Speaker 3: him is so stupid is he seemed to actually, like,

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Speaker 3: I think he thought was could do it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and he was right. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Less so that he was right. I think he's still

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Speaker 3: doing the thing that most founders do where they're just like,

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Speaker 3: I think this is possible. But he at least knew

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Speaker 3: that was could do this, and his yah, his idea

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Speaker 3: was at least somewhat modest, Yeah, compared to all sorts

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Speaker 3: of like there's the startup that claims it could beam

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Speaker 3: energy between products, the one that's just been completely faked forever,

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Speaker 3: that one's still going somehow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I think it's also, as you were, kind

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Speaker 2: of like intimating Jobs knows everyone knows. Everyone who knows

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Speaker 2: anything about computers knows that what Waznak is trying to do,

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Speaker 2: we're eighty percent of the way there. Right. That twenty

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Speaker 2: percent is a significant gap still, but it's not nearly

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Speaker 2: the kind of gap that Holmes had to clear with Therahose. Right,

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Speaker 2: nothing even a little bit like the device Theramost was promising.

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Speaker 3: He was just chemistry.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so it was not nearly a much of

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Speaker 2: a jump. It is again that twenty percent is not trivial,

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Speaker 2: which is why people consider Wosniak one of the greatest

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Speaker 2: engineers who ever lived. His accomplishment is significant, but it's

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Speaker 2: not nearly as much of a jump that you have

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Speaker 2: to make now. Job still does have to convince Wosniak,

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Speaker 2: who has again is the only person who's going to

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Speaker 2: make this possible to devote hours of his time to

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Speaker 2: doing this, and was just got married. He has this

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Speaker 2: career that he's just starting, and he's broke all the time.

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Speaker 2: Steve Wosniak is one of the worst people with money

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Speaker 2: who will ever live. As a spoiler, He's going to

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Speaker 2: get crazy rich off of Apple and then burn a

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Speaker 2: huge chunk of that money failing to run a series

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Speaker 2: of concerts like he is horrible with his money, and

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Speaker 2: so it's not a trivial challenge for Jobs to motivate

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Speaker 2: him to put the kind of time in that it's

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Speaker 2: going to take him to achieve this goal, and he's

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Speaker 2: able to do that by lying to Wosniak. Here's how

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Speaker 2: Isaacson describes their conversation. He didn't argue that they were

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Speaker 2: sure to make money, said that they would have a

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Speaker 2: fun adventure. Even if we lose our money, We'll have

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Speaker 2: a company, said Jobs, as they were driving in his

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Speaker 2: Volkswagen bus. For once in our lives, we'll have a company.

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Speaker 2: This was enticing to Osniak, even more than any prospect

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Speaker 2: of getting rich. He recalled, I was excited to think

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Speaker 2: about us like that, to be two best friends starting

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Speaker 2: a company. Wow. I knew right then that I do it.

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Speaker 2: How could I not? And that's sad because like that

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Speaker 2: is purely Jobs gaslighting him. Jobs does not think of

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Speaker 2: him this way. Right, Jobs wants a company for himself.

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Speaker 2: He doesn't consider Bosniak to be an even partner in this.

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Speaker 2: Right he knows Wosniak is herreplaceable, and he will treat

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Speaker 2: Wosniak better than most people because of that, but he

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Speaker 2: does not see this as two best friends embarking on

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Speaker 2: an adventure together. Steve sees this as this is my chance, right,

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Speaker 2: my chance.

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Speaker 3: It's I'm said how the jeweling narratives clearly went and

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Speaker 3: like I love my friend Steve, I love doing computers.

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Speaker 3: It was with my friends Steve and Steve Jobs sitting

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Speaker 3: there going, I can't wait to take all the money

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Speaker 3: from Steve wasn act.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna fuck this guy and everybody else.

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Speaker 4: I can't wait to fuck over this idiot, just like

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Speaker 4: it's funny you see all the stuff with his children,

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Speaker 4: disgusting and how he acted to his staff, but it

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Speaker 4: feels like he was somehow more evil before.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's worse to them than he is to Washnak

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Speaker 2: because he needs Wosniak and he's not dumb right, Jobs

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Speaker 2: is not dumb. Jobs understands maybe the only person in

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Speaker 2: his life until he meets Joni Ives Right, who's the

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Speaker 2: big uh industrial designer who is kind of probably the

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Speaker 2: single most important person in like how Apple products look

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Speaker 2: and feel today. That's I've iv is irreplaceable. Wozniak was irreplaceable,

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Speaker 2: right because these guys have a skill that no one

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Speaker 2: else can come close to, So he can't be shitty

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Speaker 2: to them in the same way he is to everybody else,

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Speaker 2: but he's still deeply manipulative to Wozniak, right, like that

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Speaker 2: is beyond argument. I think so the wah was believe

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Speaker 2: his friend. And for the next few weeks he works

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Speaker 2: at HP during the day and at night he solders

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Speaker 2: and codes software by hand because he doesn't have direct

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Speaker 2: access to a machine, right, he can't. This is to

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Speaker 2: understand the degree of his achievement. He doesn't have a

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Speaker 2: computer that he can code this computer in He is

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Speaker 2: sitting up with paper and writing code by hand. And

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Speaker 2: the first time he knows when it works is when

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Speaker 2: he puts all of this together and builds the device

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Speaker 2: and tries to run it. Jesus yes, Like this is

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Speaker 2: a whole different planet from what coders do today.

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Speaker 3: Like so a level of genius the I don't think

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Speaker 3: was actually guests no credit for he is so fucking

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Speaker 3: good at this it's nuts.

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Speaker 2: Jobs registers Apple as a California business partnership on April first,

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy six. Their initial logo is drawn by the

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Speaker 2: guy who is briefly the third founder of the company,

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Speaker 2: Ronald Wayne. Wayne is an Atari engineer who they brought

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Speaker 2: in to kind of be the adult in the room. Right,

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Speaker 2: one thing Jobs is good at that you wouldn't expect

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Speaker 2: me to be good at. He has certain kinds of humility.

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Speaker 2: He understands for a long period of time, I want

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Speaker 2: to be the CEO, but I'm not ready to do

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Speaker 2: that job. Right. His first pick, he's going to pick

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Speaker 2: a few people for this role. And he's bad at

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Speaker 2: picking people for this role, by the way, but he

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Speaker 2: does understand I'm not ready to do this, which is

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Speaker 2: interesting to me. You usually see a guy like Jobs. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: weird for him to have that level of understanding of

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Speaker 2: at least one of his limitations. Now, Wayne makes the

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Speaker 2: first logo for Apple, which Steve Jobs loves. And this

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Speaker 2: first logo is an etching of Isaac Newton beneath an

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Speaker 2: apple tree. It's very pretentious. Jobs loves it because he

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Speaker 2: is pretentious. But like I will guarantee you Apple would

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Speaker 2: not have worked out had that been their logo. Right.

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Speaker 2: The Apple logo today is maybe the most valuable logo

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Speaker 2: on the planet. There is a reason why it is

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Speaker 2: so front and center in like the back of every device. Right,

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Speaker 2: it's what you see when people you know someone's using

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Speaker 2: an Apple. Right. It's an undeniably successful design, and Jobs

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Speaker 2: wants this like pretentious ass Isaac Newton design because he

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Speaker 2: thinks it's smarter. Right. They do eventually jettison it before

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Speaker 2: the company, you know, comes out within it logo.

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Speaker 3: By the way, the thing you're not describing is that

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Speaker 3: it's got Apple computer co on it. It looks like

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Speaker 3: the label from an eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, like medicine, Like someone's kind of sell you medicine.

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Speaker 3: Stay coil logo. It's all stippled as well at Wall

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Speaker 3: Street Journal style. Yeah, this is this isn't just bad.

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Speaker 3: This is like dog shit.

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Speaker 2: It's dog shit. It's going to get replaced very quickly.

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Speaker 2: Wayne is going to leave the company, and like he

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Speaker 2: has like a third of the company, has a stake

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Speaker 2: in it that he like sells for I think like

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Speaker 2: a thousand bucks or some shit like. But what it

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Speaker 2: says a lot about how shitty Steve Jobs is to

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Speaker 2: work with that. Years later, when Wayne is interviewed about this,

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Speaker 2: he's like, yeah, I just thought it would be too strong.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad I quit the job because it wouldn't have

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Speaker 2: been worth the stress. Like this man looks at the

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Speaker 2: possibility of having one hundreds of millions of dollars. It

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Speaker 2: is like, but I wouldn't have had to stay in

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Speaker 2: a room with Steve Jobs. Not worth it. The smell

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Speaker 2: not worth it. Yeah, the smell alone, it's not worth

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Speaker 2: that money.

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Speaker 3: Oh boy.

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Speaker 2: So Wahs succeeds and the device he makes becomes the

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Speaker 2: Apple One. It's basically just this is not what we

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Speaker 2: would consider a full computer. It is a microprocessor, a CPU,

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Speaker 2: a power supply, and some memory chips on a circuit board. Right.

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Speaker 2: You put it in a box like you get a

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Speaker 2: cigar box, and you stick this fucker in there, and

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Speaker 2: you hook it up to a monitor and a keyboard,

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Speaker 2: and then you've got a computer you can use in

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Speaker 2: your home. The Apple One is not a big hit

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Speaker 2: among the computer geeks at the homebrew club. They wanted

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Speaker 2: to hack and cobble, and they liked sharing schematics and

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Speaker 2: stuff for free. The fact that Jobs is trying to

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Speaker 2: sell this idea to them for money rubs everyone the

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Speaker 2: wrong way. But in this instance, Jobs understands the future

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Speaker 2: better than they do. He knows that it lays in

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Speaker 2: selling a computer regular people want to buy. So he

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Speaker 2: finds a guy who owns a computer shop, and he

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Speaker 2: works at a deal to sell a bunch of these

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Speaker 2: boards for five hundred bucks a pop. He brings in

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Speaker 2: a bunch of his friends from around California and elsewhere

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Speaker 2: to help them make the boards, and he hires his

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Speaker 2: mom to manage the phones. Elizabeth Holmes is one of

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Speaker 2: Apple's first employees and does finance work for them. And

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Speaker 2: this is where the legendary story of Apple being formed

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Speaker 2: out of a family garage comes from. Jobs in Wozniak

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Speaker 2: Rope in their friends jobs's adopted sister works there. They

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Speaker 2: bring in their friends girlfriends. Right you know, Elizabeth Holmes

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Speaker 2: is Dan Kottke's girlfriend. He has them like soldering a

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Speaker 2: bunch of boards together. Right. Kotkey moves down from Oregon

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Speaker 2: for the summer to help. And this is the first

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Speaker 2: time that people get exposed to Steve's temper. Brince Schlender

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Speaker 2: writes he prodded the team ceaselessly when things went wrong.

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Speaker 2: He moved fast. After an old girlfriend failed to solder

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Speaker 2: a few chips correctly, he made her the team's bookkeeper.

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Speaker 2: His temper was short, and he never hesitated to belittle

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Speaker 2: their work when something went wrong. As a child, Steve

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Speaker 2: had rarely been given any reason to hold back his

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Speaker 2: honest feelings. Now he began to learn one of his

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Speaker 2: first management lessons, namely that his temper, properly targeted, could

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Speaker 2: actually be a very effective motivational tool. Right, people will

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Speaker 2: work hard to avoid me screaming at them because it's

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Speaker 2: such an unpleasant experience. Ooh, that does say a lot

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Speaker 2: about this guy. So they come out with this thing,

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Speaker 2: this legitimately revolutionary device, the Apple one, and it kind

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Speaker 2: of flops. Right. They sell, They make a good amount

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Speaker 2: of money off the first batch of sales to the store,

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Speaker 2: but the store can't move them. Right. Part of the

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Speaker 2: problem is timing the first twenty five devices hit the

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Speaker 2: store right at the same time as a more established

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Speaker 2: company puts out its first personal computer, the IMSAI eighty eighty,

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Speaker 2: which would become the first personal computer to sell more

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Speaker 2: than a million dollars worth of product in a single month. Right.

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Speaker 2: Un Like the Apple one, the IMSAI eighty eighty is

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Speaker 2: a complete machine. It's in a box, like an actual

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Speaker 2: professional box, not some box that a dude found, right.

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Speaker 2: And it's not just so. It's not just a circuit

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Speaker 2: board with some kookie branding. Right. It's something that's more

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Speaker 2: recognizable to a normal person as a product, and particularly

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Speaker 2: to like somebody buying a computer for their business, right

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Speaker 2: because that is still the bulk of the of the

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Speaker 2: of the market right now. Now. The other issue is

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Speaker 2: employees at the one store that Apple's first product is

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Speaker 2: in hate Jobs. Whenever he comes down to try to

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Speaker 2: get them to buy more, to try to like get

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Speaker 2: them to change the prominence with which the Apple one

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Speaker 2: is put up in their store, He's like, he hasn't showered.

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Speaker 2: He stinks to high heaven.

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Speaker 3: He looks at the ways of him the pig pen, right.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, they're all just like why are we why

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Speaker 2: are we taking Yes, And they're these guys at these

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Speaker 2: these early stores that he's trying to get to buy

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Speaker 2: his product are like, why would we take a risk

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Speaker 2: on this?

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Speaker 4: Dude?

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Speaker 2: He doesn't look serious. This is not a guy who

355
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Speaker 2: can run a real company. Right. So the fact that

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Speaker 2: this fails, the fact that Jobs is not able to

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Speaker 2: make this product move, and that it starts to become

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Speaker 2: really clear that the company's approaching a serious cash crunch.

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Speaker 2: This causes Jobs to have something of a personal crisis.

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Speaker 2: When they sell that first those first twenty five units,

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Speaker 2: they make a good amount of money off of that, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: that's a lot of money for them, and that makes

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Speaker 2: them feel like we're on the cusp of success. And

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Speaker 2: then they stop selling additional units. He had initially thought

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Speaker 2: with the early success they had, jobs had convinced himself,

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Speaker 2: I have hacked a new kind of enlightened Buddhist capitalism. Right.

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Speaker 2: The fact that we're going to be a hit means

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Speaker 2: that I have figured out a better, a more ethical, enlightened,

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Speaker 2: spiritual way of being a caut his employees, one where

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Speaker 2: he screams abuses his girlfriend for not being as good

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Speaker 2: at soldering as he wants it to be. As soon

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Speaker 2: as he becomes convinced like I am the new Buddhist

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Speaker 2: founder CEO, he orders production of one hundred more Apple

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Speaker 2: Ones that they can't sell, and so he burns the

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Speaker 2: money they've made in this first sale on this disastrous

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Speaker 2: second push of products that people don't want to buy,

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Speaker 2: and so the company finds itself in an existential cash crunch.

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Speaker 2: They cannot move the units that they're making, and they're

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Speaker 2: running out of money to pay his friends, some of

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Speaker 2: whom have quit other work and moved to California, like

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Speaker 2: Daniel Kottke for the summer to help. For the first

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Speaker 2: time and not the last. The company headed towards a

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Speaker 2: disaster entirely architected by Jobs. And speaking of disasters, your

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Speaker 2: life will be a disaster if you don't invest in

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Speaker 2: the products and services that support this podcast. Oh we're back. So,

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Speaker 2: as Apple is careening towards the abyss, Jobs reaches out

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Speaker 2: to Chris Anne, his old girlfriend, and again they're kind

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Speaker 2: of on again, off again. Right, He'll come back into

389
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Speaker 2: her life and this is going to be a thing

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Speaker 2: for like twenty years. He gets more and more kind

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Speaker 2: of close to her every time he fails. Right, he

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Speaker 2: will never admit this, and he is constantly shitty to her,

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Speaker 2: but she is for decades going to be a crucial

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Speaker 2: part of his emotional support network.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: She's someone he feels safe with when he's failing, and

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Speaker 2: when he succeeds, he wants nothing from her. Does that

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Speaker 2: make sense?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds like Steve Jobs.

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00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,199
Speaker 2: That sounds like the Steve Jobs I know. Yeah. So

401
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,239
Speaker 2: he's like he bears his soul to her and she

402
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,240
Speaker 2: advises her because she is into the same kind of

403
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Speaker 2: Eastern religion that he is. There's this local Zen Buddhist

404
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,080
Speaker 2: monk that they're both kind of friends with Cobin Chino,

405
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Speaker 2: and she's like, hey, go talk to Cobin and get

406
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Speaker 2: some advice from him. Right. The following story comes from

407
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,960
Speaker 2: the excellent book Infinite Loop. Wouldn't it be better? Jobs asked,

408
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Speaker 2: and this is n't talking to Cobin if he were

409
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Speaker 2: to drop this capitalist deceit and head for a monastery

410
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Speaker 2: in Japan. The monk laughed and told Jobs he would

411
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,679
Speaker 2: not find much difference between the two, a statement that

412
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,200
Speaker 2: showed the monk had incredible insight into either the nature

413
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,360
Speaker 2: of entrepreneurship or the personality of Steve Jobs.

414
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Speaker 3: Well, just the thing that he said still absolutely nothing.

415
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 2: I think what the monk is saying, you will not

416
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,439
Speaker 2: notice a difference between being a monk and a monastery

417
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Speaker 2: or running a company, because it's still you.

418
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Speaker 3: You to watch Bakkaroo banside that where you go there

419
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Speaker 3: you are.

420
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly exactly. You will be like if you want to.

421
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,160
Speaker 2: If you feel like you're doing something wrong, it's because

422
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,159
Speaker 2: of who you are and how you treat things, not

423
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:31,879
Speaker 2: because of what you're doing right, which I think is

424
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 2: a legitimate insight. That quote continues. Afterward, Jobs confided to

425
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Speaker 2: his old girlfriend that he was afraid Apple would turn

426
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Speaker 2: him into a monster, and boy, howdie is that one

427
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 2: of those Dune moments. So by this point, Apple had

428
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 2: switched to the now famous Apple logo from the pretentious

429
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,920
Speaker 2: one Jobs had loved. At one point, he flew into

430
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Speaker 2: a rage with their only customers so far about the

431
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Speaker 2: logo that the guy owning the shop has no choice

432
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,119
Speaker 2: in the logo, but Job screams at him, people that

433
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,159
Speaker 2: gets horseshit, We've got to change the name. And he

434
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,880
Speaker 2: actually gets talked out of that by the client. Right,

435
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,119
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs tries to jettison the name and logo for

436
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:16,399
Speaker 2: Apple Computers.

437
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:18,919
Speaker 3: Do we have to find out what he was going

438
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 3: to change it to?

439
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 2: But it was like, I'm sure it's something pretentious, Buddhist capitalism,

440
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 2: anchor some shit. I don't know. Yeah, Now there are

441
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 2: some additional weird issues that Apple has to confront early

442
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 2: on this one. I did not see coming. The same

443
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,639
Speaker 2: summer they're trying to make this the Apple one work.

444
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,120
Speaker 2: The Omen comes out, you know the movie The Omen, Right, Yes,

445
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 2: I know what you're asking. Again, what the fuck does

446
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 2: that have to do? It's selling it. I can't wait

447
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 2: to find out well, for reasons, I've never heard a

448
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 2: good explanation for jobs sells the Apple one for six

449
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,439
Speaker 2: hundred and sixty six dollars and sixty six man owns

450
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 2: the Bible, That one's right in the Bible. Yeah, I'm

451
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 2: sure now. Well, Oddly though, it's not Christians that this

452
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 2: pisses off. It's a group of Sikhs who organize a

453
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 2: campaign to like protest against Apple that like drowns the

454
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 2: job's household, which is Apple's office, like his mom's running

455
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 2: the phones, and they just get deluged in complaints about

456
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 2: like the fact that they're clearly selling a satanic product.

457
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,920
Speaker 2: It's very weird the way this moral panic works out.

458
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 2: I guess it's it shows how different the times are.

459
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 2: Go figure Jesus Christ. Yeah, what a weird issue to have.

460
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 2: That one's not his fault. Who could know?

461
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,479
Speaker 3: Right, I'm sorry, Yes, it is his full Why are

462
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 3: you selling it for six hundred and sixty six dollars?

463
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 2: Yeah? It must have been on purpose, right.

464
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no real Did he just leave his finger

465
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 3: on a key? Like no, he was like, oh yeah,

466
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 3: this will be Yeah, this version of Elon Musk's doing

467
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 3: four twenty jokes it is.

468
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,640
Speaker 2: I didn't think about that, but he is that guy.

469
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 2: It is the same kind of dude, right, wouldn't this

470
00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 2: be funny? That's amazing. Eventually Jobs is able to secure

471
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 2: a few more months of funding by getting a loan

472
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 2: from some friends of Wosniak. Now, these guys, these people

473
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 2: who are good friends of Steve Wosneyak, they are not rich, right,

474
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 2: And in fact, one of them is going through like

475
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 2: dire financial straits at the moment. And when they're interviewed later,

476
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 2: they're both like, I don't actually know why we gave

477
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,880
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs five thousand dollars, right, it doesn't make any

478
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,120
Speaker 2: sense that we would have made this investment. All one

479
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 2: of them could later say is Steve had a silver tongue.

480
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 2: He could talk anybody into anything. Right, Again, from the

481
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,640
Speaker 2: cult leaders sort of thing he is. He is really

482
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 2: good at convincing people to do what he wants them

483
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 2: to do, to a point where they're like baffled by

484
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 2: why they do it themselves. Right.

485
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 3: I think he was convincing but also very annoying and

486
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 3: smelled And I keep mentioning the smell. But it's insane

487
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 3: to me that this just like stinky asshole was able

488
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 3: to con so many people.

489
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 2: Here's the thing, though, the stinky asshole who conned a

490
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 2: lot of people. That's also the description of Rasputen. Right.

491
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 2: Often human history turns on a smelly asshole who's man,

492
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 2: some stinky man who's good at convincing people to act

493
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 2: against their interests. Look, I can't imagine Hitler smelled great? Right,

494
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 2: you know they in the Boston smell zone. Yeah, what

495
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 2: did these guys smell like? Not great? Now? You know,

496
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,239
Speaker 2: Saddam Hussein, there was a man who smelled good. I'm

497
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 2: going to guarantee that guy always smelled incredible. He just

498
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 2: has that vibe to him.

499
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 3: You know.

500
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 2: That's my head canon for Saddam and for Tito weirdly enough,

501
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 2: but not Stalin. So Steve was of course lying, right,

502
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 2: or at least he's at best he's getting by. He's

503
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 2: convincing these people to throw down their last bit of

504
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 2: cash on this investment, not based on his actual knowledge

505
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 2: that they are going to turn shit around, because he

506
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 2: has no ideas here, right, he basically has to go

507
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 2: to Wosniak and say, the Apple one, groundbreaking as it is,

508
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 2: is not selling. We have to figure something else out.

509
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 2: And he has to hope that Wosniak can do magic again. Right,

510
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 2: the Apple one is too weak that it doesn't have

511
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 2: a powerful enough processor. It can't really compete. It's the

512
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 2: technically the first I think, But like the PCs that

513
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 2: succeed before it does, you know, they have more horsepower. Right,

514
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: And so what initial buzz there had been around the

515
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 2: Apple One, it fades because everything else that comes out

516
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 2: immediately afterwards is a lot better. And so fixing this

517
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: is going to come down to Wosniak. And Wosniak is

518
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 2: not motivated by money. He never is. He is motivated,

519
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 2: like all genius nerds, by impressing other nerds. Specifically, he

520
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 2: wants to impress the guys at the home Brew club

521
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 2: who were not that impressed by his first creation. So

522
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 2: he decides to do the impossible, make an affordable PC

523
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 2: that's color TV compatible. And I'm going to quote again

524
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 2: from Infinite Loop here. The only problem was that most

525
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 2: designers figured out that to put color on a home

526
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 2: computer would require another board equal in size to the motherboard,

527
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 2: containing forty or more chips that would at least double

528
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 2: the price of the computer, not to mention, create all

529
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 2: sorts of new problems with reliability, power consumption, cooling, et cetera.

530
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 2: It was the perfect challenge for wa was nobody alive

531
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: could look at a chip design and simplify it by

532
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 2: factor of two or five or ten in the way

533
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 2: Was could, And now having announced his intentions, he set

534
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,719
Speaker 2: out to do it. And being Wase, he also had

535
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,959
Speaker 2: his own silly, eccentric reason for doing the impossible. He

536
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 2: wanted to play the game he devised for Atari Breakout

537
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 2: on his own computer and not just on an arcade player.

538
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 2: So again, Jobs is entirely motivated by wanting to succeed,

539
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 2: wanting to be influential, wanting to be rich and powerful.

540
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 2: Wozniak is motivated by wanting to impress some other nerds

541
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 2: and wanting to play a video game in his house. Right,

542
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 2: Why this theory is kind of a tragedy, Yes, it

543
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 2: really is. It's very sad.

544
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 3: This lovely, this lovely man who's lear I love doing computers.

545
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 3: I love doing computer so much. And this other guy

546
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 3: who's just like a Goplin he wants to make more

547
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 3: money than God.

548
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 2: And this is this is why I prefer the Fastbender

549
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: Rogan movie. Is that like Fastbender, it comes across as

550
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 2: like kind of sinister which Job was and seth Rogan

551
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: is wholesome right as Steve Wotsneyak, and it captures he's

552
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 2: playing Waws largely during the period when like Waz is

553
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 2: angry at Jobs, which is a thing that happens, right

554
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 2: because Jep justifiably yes, anyway, that's the one I would

555
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 2: recommend watching. So yeah, this does I think get to

556
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 2: the heart of what makes Apple work. Right. In one

557
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 2: corner you have Wohsniak. He's not interested in money or

558
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 2: doing anything for the money, and without him, Apple would

559
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 2: never have had a product. Now we've been making fun

560
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 2: of Steve and it is an unequal partnership up this point,

561
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: but Steve plays a critical role in why this works

562
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 2: out because the Waws is never going to build a business,

563
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 2: right He's probably, despite his genius, probably would not have

564
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 2: been very influential without Jobs, because Jobs is going to

565
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: force these brilliant things things he's making into the market, right,

566
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 2: that is the thing that wouldn't have happened without Jobs.

567
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 2: Right now, Remarkablyosniak solves the remarkable engineering hurdle that he

568
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 2: had been set for him, and in doing so, he

569
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: creates a device that integrates the display driver into the microprocessor.

570
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 2: This is probably I think there's some debate about this,

571
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 2: but I have heard it argue that this is the

572
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 2: single innovation that most makes mass market personal computer's possi.

573
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 3: It's quite literally the thing that makes them work. Yeah.

574
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a huge, huge deal. But he's saying that

575
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 2: he did it is just some guy. Yeah, some guy

576
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 2: who wants to play Breakout, and it's because of his innovation.

577
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: Nearly every part of a PC now is able to

578
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 2: be put on a single board that can display in

579
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 2: color and doesn't cost as much as a new fucking car. Right,

580
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 2: this is still not quite enough. In Apple lore, the

581
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 2: Apple two is usually described as Wasniac's brainchild. But the

582
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 2: whole thing needs to fit and be shipped in a

583
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: professional case, not a cigar box, which is what they'd

584
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 2: been doing. And as a result of that, it needs

585
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 2: a better power supply. And the Wahs doesn't know shit

586
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 2: about power supplies, right, this is outside of his wheelhouse.

587
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 2: Power supplies are analog devices. He is a digital guy,

588
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: And there's a weird kind of pride divide between the

589
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 2: dudes who are into the analog and the digital shit right.

590
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 2: So jobs has to ask a friend of Atari, who

591
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 2: do we bring in to figure out the power supply?

592
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 2: And the name they get is a Marxist mad scientist

593
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 2: named Frederick Holt. And this is a weird part of

594
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 2: the story. And I'm going to quote from the book

595
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 2: Return to the Little Kingdom here, which is the first

596
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 2: history of Apple that gets published. As a youth, he

597
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: had inherited the complete works of Lenin from his grandfather,

598
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 2: a revolutionary socialist who ran for governor of the state

599
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 2: of Maine on the Eugene Debs ticket. And though Lenin

600
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 2: came to share his teenage bookshelf with the works of Darwin,

601
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: Holt decided that the triumph of the proletariat was infinitely

602
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 2: preferable to the survival of the fittest. He found graduate

603
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 2: work in mathematics at Ohio State lonely it was like

604
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: playing chess with yourself, edited a free speech newspaper and

605
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 2: explored the private jealousies of radical left splinter groups. He

606
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 2: became national treasurer for the student portion of the National

607
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 2: Coalition Against the War in Vietnam, and was invited by

608
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 2: a small New York publisher to write a book about

609
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 2: the logic of Marxism, but he was diverted by the

610
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 2: call of politics. And in nineteen sixty five, when John

611
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 2: Lindsay ran from mayor of New York City, Holt managed

612
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: the rival campaign of a black taxi driver who stood

613
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 2: as a revolutionary socialist. The duo succeeded in drawing far

614
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 2: more attention from the FBI than the New York electorate.

615
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 2: This is the guy who's going to figure out the

616
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: apples power supply, right, And it's funny. That's such an

617
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 2: interesting backstory.

618
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 3: But also it's interesting how Steve Job seems to be

619
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 3: surrounded by people with relatively strong moral beliefs yes, despite

620
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 3: the fact he has none. No.

621
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 2: And he's good at manipulating them too. He manipulates these people.

622
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: These people believe in things and he does not. Yes.

623
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 2: And it's one thing that's funny. And the Ashton Kutcher

624
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: movie all of this that like that paragraph I read,

625
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 2: that's a fascinating backstory for a character, right, this like

626
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 2: genius engineer who comes into engineering as like a Marxist academic.

627
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 2: That's like, you can have a really interesting character. The

628
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: because the Jobs movie is written by Dipshitz, all the

629
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 2: only thing they can think of for him is like,

630
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 2: we'll give him a leather jacket and have him ride

631
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 2: a motorcycle. Like that's they make him. Then they make

632
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 2: him the Fosters, They don't. They don't even make him

633
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: a like they just don't know what to do with

634
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 2: the character because it's it's it's written by scrubs. Holt

635
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 2: is an interesting guy, though, and he doesn't want to

636
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 2: work for Apple. Initially, he tells the company basically, you

637
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: can't afford me, and Job says, no problem, we'll figure

638
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 2: it out. Holt. I don't really know the exact details

639
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 2: of the detail they work out. Holt would later just

640
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 2: say he conned me into working. So there you go.

641
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 2: The new and improved Apple one is a much better product,

642
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 2: and it starts selling. It starts selling like hotcakes, but

643
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 2: personally conflicts between Wosniak and Jobs nearly derail everything. Right.

644
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 2: The cause was this this question of what are we

645
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: going how many expansion slots are we going to put

646
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,719
Speaker 2: in the machine? Right? Wosniak wants eight, And these are

647
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 2: the slots that allow you eventually are going to allow

648
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 2: you to hook up like a printer in addition to

649
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 2: like cooking up a keyboard and a mouse, right, Jobs

650
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 2: is like, you need a keyboard and you need a monitor.

651
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: Those are the only slots you need. We don't want

652
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 2: to give people more because that makes it too big,

653
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 2: so it's not streamlined, and we don't want customers to

654
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 2: have control over the product. Right. This is he is

655
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 2: obsessed with simplicity and cutting down the degree of access

656
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 2: consumers have to modifying their own products. That is a

657
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 2: hallmark of Apple Stuff today. This exists at the beginning.

658
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 3: Of genuinely fascinate as Yes, going back to the original devices,

659
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 3: he had this world garden philosophy.

660
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 2: Yes, this is from this. He has always believed in this.

661
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,479
Speaker 2: And what's fascinating about this to me? If he had

662
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 2: gotten his way because he loses this argument with wa.

663
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 2: If he's gotten this way in the first the Apple

664
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 2: and the Apple Too, the company would have failed. It

665
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: would not have worked as a product. The fact that

666
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 2: the Apple Too in particular is so modifiable and expandable

667
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 2: is why it has The Apple Too is the top

668
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 2: selling Apple product for like thirteen years, right because people

669
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 2: can modify it, you know. But Jobs would have been

670
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: disastrously wrong if he'd gotten his way in the short term.

671
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 2: In the long run, I think it's bad for all

672
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 2: of us that he's right about this, But he is

673
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 2: right that this is the smartest way to make a

674
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 2: profit in the tech industry is cutting down consumer access

675
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 2: and cutting down simplifying doing shit like cutting out the

676
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 2: headphone jack. Again, I'm angry at him for doing that,

677
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 2: but it works. You can't deny it. It is profitable

678
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: right to run your your tech.

679
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 3: But price sucks.

680
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: It sucks, ass. I don't like that it is, but

681
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 2: you can't.

682
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 3: Argue that we all use on a deal. Yes, I

683
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 3: love me Dongles.

684
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 2: I'm very frustrated by it. It is interesting to me

685
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 2: that he Dongles pilled. He sees what of eventually will

686
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 2: be the most profitable way to do things. He just

687
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 2: he has no understanding of the fact that that won't

688
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 2: work now, which is strange. I didn't expect that when

689
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 2: I started looking into this. Wosneiak's parents and family hated Jobs,

690
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 2: and this gives us some important outside context on the

691
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 2: man I've mentioned before. Jobs is basically a con man

692
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 2: who's con worked out right, and that is how Wosneak's

693
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 2: dad sees him. This guy, he sees what Jobs is doing.

694
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 2: He sees my boy is brilliant and sweet and naive, right,

695
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,399
Speaker 2: and this man is making him, convincing him to work

696
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: long hours, to neglect his wife, to endanger his paying

697
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 2: career at HP for a pipe dream that's never going

698
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 2: to pay off. He's taking investments based on work my

699
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 2: boy hasn't even done yet, right, And he's right about this.

700
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 2: And then kind of at the height of this, Commodore,

701
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: one of the computing giants of the day, offers to

702
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 2: buy Apple Computer out. Basically, we will buy your company,

703
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 2: we will buy your product. You will get one hundred

704
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 2: thousand dollars to split up, plus each of you will

705
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 2: get a healthy salary like thirty six grand a year

706
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 2: at Commodore, right, which is a lot of money at

707
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 2: the time. This is a good deal, right, This would

708
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 2: make them both they're going to be crazy rich, but

709
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 2: this would make them both very comfortable. You know, on paper,

710
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 2: it's a solid deal. Now, Steve is going to fight

711
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 2: against taking this deal. And he's actually right about this

712
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,879
Speaker 2: because Commodore, the people running it are shady as hell.

713
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 2: They are going to run their company into the ground

714
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 2: not too long from now. They probably would have fucked

715
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 2: him in Wosniak on the deal. It's smart that he

716
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 2: doesn't take this, but it doesn't seem like the smart call.

717
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 2: And Steve Jobs does the fucking around here, right, yes,

718
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 2: And this pisses off Wozniak's family. He was like, he

719
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 2: is going to this is the entire reason they have

720
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,919
Speaker 2: a product to sell is our boy, and he's trying

721
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 2: to screw him out of a payday, right And I'm

722
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 2: going to quote again from Infinite Loop. It all came

723
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,280
Speaker 2: to a head one evening in September, as the Apple

724
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 2: narrative shifted momentarily from the Jobs's house to the Wosney Acts.

725
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,399
Speaker 2: Jerry Wosniak confronted Steve Jobs. He had told his son

726
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 2: Mark that he was going to make the little son

727
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 2: of a bitch cry and that'd be the end, and

728
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 2: that was what he did. He told Jobs, as Mark overheard,

729
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 2: you don't deserve shit. You haven't produced anything, you haven't

730
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 2: done anything. Jobs burst into tears. He told Jerry Wosniak

731
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 2: that the veteran engineer didn't appreciate all that he Steve

732
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: Jobs had done for the company. Then the tearful young

733
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 2: man turned to his partner and said, was if we're

734
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 2: not fifty to fifty. You can have the whole thing.

735
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: Whether Steve Jobs cried out of betrayal, surprise, or calculation

736
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 2: is impossible to know. But even though he cried, as

737
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 2: Jerry Wosniak had predicted, it was not the end. Through

738
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,399
Speaker 2: the tears, he had called the bluff of this rather

739
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 2: unusual pairing of a middle aged man fighting in place

740
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 2: of his grown up son. And when it was over,

741
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs was still in charge, and he still killed

742
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 2: the Commodore deal. Cool. And it's interesting to me that

743
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 2: he has figured out how to use crying as part

744
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 2: of a strategy of Like, it's not just belittling and

745
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 2: screaming at people. He knows that he can cry to

746
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 2: make himself seem sympathetic, and his friend Wozniak, who legitimately

747
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 2: loves him, will that will turn him around even though

748
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 2: we've been fighting.

749
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 3: What a fucking scumbag.

750
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is. He is always going to be

751
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,280
Speaker 2: good at playing to Watsdak's sense of loyalty to this friendship,

752
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 2: which is going to be tested mightily in the years

753
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: to come. Steve is although he is right about killing

754
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,359
Speaker 2: this deal right, it works out much better for them

755
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,320
Speaker 2: both that he does, and so you do have to

756
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 2: give him credit for that he does not he doesn't

757
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 2: see this right now, maybe you can say he didn't

758
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 2: know that at the time. This is still him being

759
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 2: a con artist, but it does show his instincts are

760
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 2: pretty good about this sort of thing, right. And so

761
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 2: after he kills this deal, he sets up meetings with

762
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 2: a guy named Don Valentine who works at Sequoia Capital.

763
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 2: Don is a serious business man, right, and Jobs is

764
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,720
Speaker 2: a smelly hippie. And so here's how Brent Schlinder describes

765
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 2: the way Jobs shows up to this meeting. His jeans

766
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 2: had holes, his hair was unbrushed, he wore no shoes,

767
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 2: and he smelled. They only get the meeting because Jobs

768
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 2: he'll massage his own bare in meetings.

769
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 3: Like he's so off putting the people's the disgusting goblin.

770
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 2: They only get this meeting because Jobs talks a marketer,

771
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 2: Regis McKenna into setting it up. Right, And after this meeting,

772
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 2: Valentine asks McKenna, why did you send me these renegades

773
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 2: from the human race? But he says this, he's still

774
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 2: impressed enough by what they're saying that he connects them

775
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 2: to an investor, a guy named Mike Markula and Markola

776
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 2: winds up both investing a bunch of money. He puts

777
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 2: like one hundred grand of his own money into Apple,

778
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 2: and he also he basically signs with them for a

779
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 2: line of credit with Bank of America for like a

780
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 2: quarter of a million dollars. And in exchange for putting

781
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 2: this money in and for being the guaranter of this

782
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 2: line of credit, he gets a third of the company,

783
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 2: which is, by the way, Mike does very well off

784
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 2: this deal, right, makes a couple dollars a third of Apple,

785
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 2: quite a lot of money. His one condition is that

786
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 2: Wosniak has to quit HP, right, And this is the

787
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 2: this is a smart thing. Yeah, what Mike's like, If

788
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 2: I'm gonna put this much money in Wozniak, you got

789
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 2: to shit or get off the pot. You know.

790
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 3: This is the saying that Wozniak has done all of

791
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 3: the things you said without leaving his day job.

792
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 2: No, No, he's doing this in like evenings when he

793
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 2: and kind of he's ignoring his wife.

794
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 3: Niley fucking a podcast. Jesus Christ.

795
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, right, he is. He is very uh

796
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 2: and they're young too, which which makes it easier to

797
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 2: work out stuff like this.

798
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 3: That's definitely it.

799
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 2: And you know who's forever young. The sponsors of our podcast,

800
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 2: none of them age, and you too will stop aging

801
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 2: if you buy whatever it is they're selling. The Fountain

802
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 2: of Youth is here advertising on our show. And we're back,

803
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 2: having conquered aging. Let's continue the story of Steve Jobs.

804
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 2: Our cameras are off today.

805
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 3: But just no, I did not enjoy that ad pivot.

806
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 2: Well I'm proud of it.

807
00:40:58,560 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 3: So yeah, this we're fine.

808
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 2: I'm proud that we have conquered the fountain of youth,

809
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 2: you know, like the conquistadors of old. So this is

810
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: the point at which Apple starts to turn into a

811
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 2: real company. They move out of that famous garage, they

812
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 2: get a real board of directors, and they get their

813
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 2: first professional CEO, who is coincidentally named Michael Scott. Again

814
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 2: the number of people with names that are prominent for

815
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 2: some other reason. That's the first Apple CEO is literally

816
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 2: Michael Scott, and he is I will say he is

817
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 2: as bad at this as the Michael Scott from the offices,

818
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,399
Speaker 2: Like he is not good at this job. Incredible, It's

819
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,720
Speaker 2: very funny.

820
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 3: Your history is oh Yeah, I'm the guy who couldn't

821
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 3: run Apple.

822
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 2: There's so many guys who have that job title, actually,

823
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 2: including Steve Jobs, including Steve Jobs for a spell. Yeah.

824
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 2: So Apple begins its rise to global prominence after this point.

825
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs, now they're making money right, moves into a

826
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 2: ranch style house in Coupertino alongside his buddy Dan. Now

827
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 2: Chris Ann works at Apple in the packing department at

828
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 2: this point, and she's living with Jobs and with Dan Kottkey.

829
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 2: And this is where we get to an interesting discrepancy

830
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 2: between the account Isaacson writes based on Steve's recollections, and

831
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 2: the account Steve's daughter, Lisa Wrights, based on her mother

832
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:18,280
Speaker 2: Chrisan's recollections. And this is, by the way, my sources

833
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 2: for this. There's the book Becoming Steve Jobs. There's Isaacson

834
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 2: Steve's Jobs. There's the book Infinite Loop. There's Inside the

835
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 2: Magic Kingdom by I think Moritz is his name. Those

836
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 2: are like my business history book sources for the Steve

837
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 2: Jobs story. The best book I read preparing for this series,

838
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 2: and I read this thing cover to cover in about

839
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,720
Speaker 2: a day is Lisa Jobs. Is Lisa I forget exactly

840
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 2: what her last name is it's like a hyphenated one.

841
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 2: I think it's Brennan Jobs. She's a really good writer.

842
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 2: It's something about like, you know, Steve's sister is a

843
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: famous Mota Simpson is a great novelist. Steve thinks he

844
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 2: could have been a poet. Maybe he could have been

845
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 2: because like his daughter's actually like, this is not just

846
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 2: interesting because of the insights. It hasn't a jo It's

847
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:05,280
Speaker 2: like legitimately an extremely well written and emotionally affecting book.

848
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 2: Like her story of this, her relationship with this guy

849
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 2: who is at times abusive and deeply neglective to her

850
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,399
Speaker 2: is like really like moved me. I actually very much

851
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 2: recommend reading Lisa's book. It's quite good. And in that

852
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 2: book kind of recalling her mother's recollections of this time

853
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 2: because Lisa's obviously not around yet, Lisa writes, my parents

854
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 2: were a couple again, living in a dark brown ranch

855
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 2: style house in Cooper, Tino, together with a man named Daniel, who,

856
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 2: along with my parents, also worked at Apple. Isaacson's recollection

857
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 2: of this makes it sound more like Jobs brought in

858
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 2: Chris Ann as an afterthought, right. Chris San's recollection is

859
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:44,720
Speaker 2: we all moved in together and we were all close.

860
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 2: The way Isaacson describes it, you know, we're hosting all

861
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 2: sorts of crazy people, is the way that, like I

862
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 2: think Daniel describes it, And that's kind of the quote

863
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 2: Isaacson uses that, like they move in together, but it's

864
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 2: not really that meaningful to Jobs, I feel like chris

865
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 2: San's probably closer to the truth. But the relationship is tumultuous,

866
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 2: and chris Anne claims she eventually decides to end it, right,

867
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: She's going to quit Apple, break up with Steve, move

868
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 2: out to go do something else. We don't know if

869
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 2: that's true, right. This is you get different accounts of

870
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 2: from different people about relationships, and to it a certain point,

871
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 2: you can't really know. It does seem like it's one

872
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 2: of those things where neither of them is able to

873
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 2: actually finally break things off. Right. Maybe there's a little

874
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 2: bit of codependency or something going on here. I don't know,

875
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 2: But chris Anne says she is planning to leave, and

876
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 2: before she can her IUD gets expelled without her knowledge

877
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 2: and she gets pregnant. Right. This is how Lisa Brennan

878
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: Jobs describes what came next, which is her conception right.

879
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 2: She told my father the next day that she was

880
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 2: pregnant when they were standing in the middle of a

881
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 2: room off the kitchen. There was no furniture, just a rug.

882
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 2: When she told him, he looked furious, clinched his jaw,

883
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 2: and then ran out the front door and slammed it

884
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 2: behind him. He drove off. She thought he must have

885
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 2: gone to talk with an attorney who told him not

886
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 2: to talk to her, because after that he wouldn't say

887
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 2: a word. She quit her job in the packing department

888
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 2: at Apple, too embarrassed to be pregnant with my father's

889
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 2: child and working at his company, and went to stay

890
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 2: at different friends' houses. She went on welfare. She had

891
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 2: no car, no income. She thought of having an abortion,

892
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 2: but decided not to after a recurring dream of a

893
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 2: blowtorch between her legs. And that is it's perfectly understandable

894
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 2: that being told that, like by surprise, you have gotten

895
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 2: someone pregnant, to have like an initial emotional reaction to it.

896
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 2: The fact that he never comes back, that he will

897
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 2: not talk to her about this, that he treats it

898
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 2: as entirely her fault, is deeply cruel and fucked up.

899
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 3: Because I think he might actually be worse than Elon Musk. Yes,

900
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 3: what a fucking monster it is.

901
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,240
Speaker 2: It gets a lot worse. We're just starting here. So Jobs,

902
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 2: he is enraged at Chris Anne for having the temerity

903
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 2: to get pregnant. And I think that's important.

904
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 3: How does the sperm get this levee?

905
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 2: Where did the sperm come from? In this situation. It's

906
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 2: important to note he doesn't seem to be specifically pissed

907
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 2: that she chooses to go through with the pregnancy, right,

908
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 2: and in fact, he may have supported the idea of

909
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 2: her going through with the pregnancy. And this is something

910
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 2: you will not find. First off, I'm going to continue.

911
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 2: This is a quote from one of Jobs's friends, Greg Calhoun.

912
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 2: This is what he tells Isaacson at the time about

913
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 2: why Jobs is so weird about this. Steve was not

914
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 2: just dealing with Chrisanner or the pregnancy. He could be

915
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 2: very engaged with you in one moment, but then very disengaged.

916
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 2: There was a side to him that was frighteningly cold, right,

917
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 2: And this is the attitude of his friends. He's just

918
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 2: this guy who compartmentalizes, so he just shuts off in

919
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 2: his head the possibility that this kid is his and

920
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 2: that he has any responsibility to it, and he's he's

921
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 2: so good at doing that that he never revisits that,

922
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 2: you know, at least not for a very long time.

923
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 3: A very convenient way to live one's life.

924
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,959
Speaker 2: I don't think that's act. We're building to that, though.

925
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 2: He begins to tell his coworkers and friends, who all

926
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 2: knew Chris Anne, that the baby is not his. Decades later,

927
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 2: he even told Isaacson, I was pretty sure I wasn't

928
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 2: the only one she was sleeping with, which the number

929
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:13,399
Speaker 2: of times he will basically say, well, if you weren't

930
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,359
Speaker 2: such a whore, this wouldn't have happened. That is what

931
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 2: he says, right, I'm not saying that about it like

932
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 2: that is what Steve says. He's very much blunt and

933
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 2: cruel about that to her.

934
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was there when you were saying that. I

935
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 3: was like, is he blatantly like, oh.

936
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 2: He's going to tell Time that, and like he's going

937
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 2: to tell Time magazine that we're building to this. His

938
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 2: friend Daniel Kottkey describes this, and I think Daniel actually

939
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 2: does have the measure of jobs here. He describes this

940
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 2: as a case of jobs using his reality distortion field

941
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,720
Speaker 2: on himself, and Elizabeth Holmes said he considered the option

942
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,439
Speaker 2: of parenthood and considered the option of not being a parent,

943
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 2: and he decided to believe the latter. He had other

944
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 2: plans for his life. I think part of that is accurate.

945
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 2: But this misses an important detail, and it's a detail

946
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 2: I've only run into and Lisa Brennan Jobs's book, Right,

947
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 2: you don't get this from Isaacson. You don't get this

948
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 2: from from Schlender, you don't get this from Moritz, right,

949
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 2: And this is very important. Right. So Jobs may have

950
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 2: been on board with the potential of having a certain

951
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 2: kind of child. Right. And this story is very ably

952
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 2: told in the book Small Fry by Lisa Brennan Jobs.

953
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 2: When it comes to the question of how did Chris

954
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 2: Anne decide to keep the baby? Here is what Jobs

955
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 2: told Isaacson. First. This is what Jobs says to Isaacson

956
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 2: late in life when he is the great Steve Jobs

957
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:35,919
Speaker 2: about this. I was all in favor of her getting

958
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 2: an abortion, but she didn't know what to do. She

959
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 2: thought about it repeatedly and decided not to or I

960
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 2: don't know that she ever really decided. I think time

961
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,280
Speaker 2: just decided for her. That is what Job says. I wanted.

962
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 2: I thought she should she should get an abortion. She

963
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 2: just kind of waited until that wasn't an option anymore.

964
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 3: Except he didn't talk to us.

965
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,359
Speaker 2: How would he except how would he know? Right? This

966
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 2: is not what chris Anne says. Chris Anne tells Lisa

967
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 2: that to make the decision about whether or not to

968
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 2: keep this embryo, she consults with a Buddhist monk. Her

969
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 2: parents knew. Come, come on right, this paragraph you will

970
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 2: not catch in any of these more popular biographies of jobs,

971
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 2: quote have the child. Cobun had advised, if you need help,

972
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 2: I'll help you, but in the intervening years he had

973
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 2: not offered any help. No one had promised as much

974
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 2: as Kobun or had seemed to my mother at the

975
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:27,359
Speaker 2: time as trustworthy. At the time, my young father had

976
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 2: also trusted Cobun, who told him that if I turned

977
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 2: out to be a boy, I would be part of

978
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 2: a spiritual patrimony, and in that case my father should

979
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 2: claim me and support me when it turned out I

980
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,479
Speaker 2: was a girl. My mother later found out from others

981
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 2: in the community. Cobun had told my father he had

982
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 2: no obligation to care for my mother and me. Oh,

983
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,720
Speaker 2: that is a very different story than Jobs gets.

984
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 3: I think Steve Job says why he thought it was

985
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:55,320
Speaker 3: too kind?

986
00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was not a very good person.

987
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 3: That is. Yes, I realized the title of this show.

988
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 3: But yeh fucking christ.

989
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so much worse than you get in the

990
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,439
Speaker 2: other versions of this story. And you know, I can't

991
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,720
Speaker 2: say who is totally right, you know, but but Lisa

992
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 2: Brennan Jobs' book rings truer to me.

993
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 3: I would be shocked if the answer was the nice story.

994
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 2: And this is consistent with the stories Jobs tells about

995
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 2: all of the other times that he was He based

996
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 2: his life on these kind of decisions based in his

997
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 2: spiritual beliefs, right, it is very consistent with that. So

998
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 2: chris Anne has the baby. She has it on their

999
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 2: friend Robert's farm up in Oregon, and Steve arrives a

1000
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 2: couple of days after the birth, at which point he

1001
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 2: proceeds to tell all their old friends he is there

1002
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 2: to see his child, and he tells all of his

1003
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 2: old friends on the farm, it's not my kid. And

1004
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 2: again Robert Friedland, who owns the farm, not a great man.

1005
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 2: This man becomes a mining billionaire. But Robert's like, dude,

1006
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 2: what are you talking about? She looks just like you, Like,

1007
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,720
Speaker 2: come on, man, like we've all seen you two together.

1008
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 2: She looks exactly like you. This is obviously your kid.

1009
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 2: Stop fucking being bullshitting around about this.

1010
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 3: You know that this is like not the guy you

1011
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 3: want to be the moral power gone age.

1012
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 2: Yes, no, And it does seem everyone who is friends

1013
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 2: with Jobs who knows him, and Chris Anne immediately is like, well, yeah,

1014
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 2: this is obviously his kid, right, you just don't take

1015
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 2: one look at her. Yeah exactly. And credit to Schwarzenegger,

1016
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 2: He's made a lot of morally compromised decisions in his life.

1017
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 2: He immediately was like, yeah, I mean this is my kid.

1018
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:35,760
Speaker 3: That's mine.

1019
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 2: This is my kid, and I'm never going to yeah exactly.

1020
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,760
Speaker 2: The Apple Too had been released not long before Lisa's birth,

1021
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 2: again based on Wosneiak's original design, and it very quickly

1022
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 2: becomes the most successful piece of its day. It's going

1023
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 2: to spell sell more than six million units over the

1024
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 2: course of a decade and a half on the market

1025
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:00,160
Speaker 2: in varying forms, and the rocket like success of The

1026
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 2: Apple Too prompts a run of investments in Apple, and

1027
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 2: the company goes public in nineteen eighty, and in that

1028
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 2: whole time period from the Apple twos release, which roughly

1029
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 2: coincides with Chrisanne's pregnancy, to the IPO, Steve pretends the

1030
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 2: daughter he'd named was not his. He repeatedly denies her

1031
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:21,760
Speaker 2: and denies he as any responsibility to this kid, Chris Sanne.

1032
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 2: For the first three years or so, Lisa's alive is

1033
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 2: barely getting by. She baby sits at a daycare, She

1034
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 2: lives off welfare and odd waitressing jobs. At one point,

1035
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 2: she has to move into a group home for women

1036
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 2: who are considering adoption right because she just cannot support

1037
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:39,399
Speaker 2: herself and Steve Jobs's kid otherwise.

1038
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,720
Speaker 3: As she watches the kid's father just get insanely.

1039
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, he about to. He hasn't gone public yet.

1040
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 2: This is criticism way this time's out. It is about to,

1041
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 2: and he's doing quite well. He's certainly doing well enough

1042
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 2: to help her not be in poverty.

1043
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:54,799
Speaker 3: Right to pay in any way.

1044
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:59,800
Speaker 2: Jobs is forced to take responsibility for Lisa in nineteen

1045
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 2: eight because the state of California finds out that the

1046
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 2: mother of Steve Jobs's child is on welfare and it's

1047
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 2: basically like, why is the state of California paying for

1048
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 2: this kid when you're Steve Jobs? And so the District

1049
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 2: Attorney of San Mateo County sues him for child support.

1050
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 2: Fuck yeah, California's attitude is like, yeah, we shouldn't be

1051
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 2: paying for this right, Jobs deny his paternity. He's like, well,

1052
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 2: I'm sterile, it couldn't be my kid, And so the

1053
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:29,720
Speaker 2: State's like, well, then let's have you take a fucking

1054
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 2: DNA test. Why is he lying when science exists?

1055
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 3: Why is he lying? It's why this is the Guru

1056
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 3: told him he wouldn't have any responsibility, and he's a

1057
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 3: huge asshole, and most people based on this history have

1058
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 3: never just gone prove it, Steve you.

1059
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 2: Fuck you fucking asshole, asshole.

1060
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 3: But he's also like dumb.

1061
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 2: Well this is I'll say, not in defense of him,

1062
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 2: but this is basically the first moment at which he

1063
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 2: could be made to take a DNA test. They have

1064
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 2: just that's just become a thing. And in fact, the

1065
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 2: maximum that a DNA test can like say that a

1066
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 2: kid is likely your kid is like a ninety four

1067
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 2: percent something like that rate of confidence, Right, that's as

1068
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 2: high as it will go at the time, and that's

1069
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 2: how highly confident the test is that this is his kid, right,

1070
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 2: Like he's like, it's not mine. The States like take

1071
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 2: a DNA test, and the DNA test says like, this

1072
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 2: is definitely his fucking child. And as a fucked up aside,

1073
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 2: Lisa is so small when they do this that they

1074
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 2: have to like try several times to draw blood from her.

1075
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 2: They have to keep poking her because she's she's so

1076
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 2: tiny that it's hard for them to get a vein.

1077
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 2: So he puts her through this too, his child. The

1078
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 2: test does prove that she's his, and so the court

1079
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 2: requires him to pay them back for past welfare payments

1080
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 2: made to Chris Ann, and it authorizes child support payments

1081
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 2: of five hundred dollars a month, plus it requires him

1082
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 2: to provide medical insurance for the child. The case is

1083
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 2: finalized in December of nineteen, right before Apple's IPO, and

1084
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 2: it's kind of surprising to Chris Anne at first that, like,

1085
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:10,840
Speaker 2: after literally months of delaying this case, suddenly his lawyers

1086
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 2: are like, yes, let's sign, let's lock this down right now.

1087
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:16,839
Speaker 2: And the reason why they suddenly change is that four

1088
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 2: days after they sign the papers, Apple goes public and

1089
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 2: overnight Steve Jobs is worth nearly a quarter of a

1090
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 2: billion dollars. They needed to settle this before that happened,

1091
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 2: so he didn't have to pay more money to support

1092
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 2: his child. Hm. Cool guy, great, great dude. So before

1093
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:43,759
Speaker 2: the IPO hits, he actually has to inform members of

1094
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:47,360
Speaker 2: the Apple board that he's fighting this child support case,

1095
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:49,880
Speaker 2: right and even at this late moment, months before he

1096
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 2: will accept paternity for this child, board member Arthur Rock

1097
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 2: recalls he kept insisting that there was a large probability

1098
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:01,280
Speaker 2: that he wasn't the father. He was delusional. So Apple

1099
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 2: goes public and it's it's huge news. Number one, they're

1100
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 2: selling computers faster than anyone ever has. They make personal

1101
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 2: computing like a massive industry, right. And number two, the

1102
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,720
Speaker 2: Apple going public, Like three hundred people become millionaires overnight,

1103
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 2: This has never happened before. All of the way that

1104
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:23,280
Speaker 2: all startups are obsessed with this IPO, with like everyone

1105
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 2: getting rich overnight. You know, all the reasons open Ai

1106
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 2: is making decisions it's making so it can get that

1107
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 2: eighty billion dollar whatever evaluation, and all of the early

1108
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,399
Speaker 2: employees who have who have stock right now will get rich.

1109
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 2: All of like that whole part of Silicon Valley culture

1110
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:40,839
Speaker 2: starts as a result of the mythic role of this

1111
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 2: Apple IPO is going to have in everybody's mind. Right,

1112
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 2: this is such a crucial moment for how the tech

1113
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 2: industry winds up being what it is today. Right, And

1114
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 2: so because this is such a huge story, Jobs is

1115
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 2: a celebrity after the IPO, and Michael Moritz, who is

1116
00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 2: going to write the first book about Apple, writes an

1117
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 2: article about him for Time magazine and it's it's funny.

1118
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:04,439
Speaker 2: Jobs hates Moritz because of how this works out, because

1119
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:07,359
Speaker 2: he is convinced that he was promised he was going

1120
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 2: to be Times Man of the Year, and Time winds

1121
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 2: up making the Personal Computer Man of the Year and

1122
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 2: just writes a very fawning story about Jobs. Jobs is

1123
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 2: convinced it's because Daniel Kottkey, basically says, tells part of

1124
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:22,919
Speaker 2: the story of the fact that he has this kid

1125
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 2: and is pretending it's not his right. He says that

1126
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 2: in his interview effectively, and Job is convinced that's why

1127
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 2: Time didn't make me, so he never won. He never

1128
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 2: forgives kott Key forgure this, and he blacklists Morris Moritz for.

1129
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 3: All the time. I like that it's not because he

1130
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 3: did the thing. It's that he told someone. Yes, like

1131
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 3: it's yes, it's not that time was like, hey, that

1132
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 3: sounds morally reprehensible.

1133
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's that they knew at all. Yeah. And it's

1134
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 2: in this time interview because Moritz brings up you know,

1135
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 2: I've heard about this kid and that you're deny paternity.

1136
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:59,439
Speaker 2: Jobs says to Moritz for this time article, that's going

1137
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 2: to be like everywhere in the United States, twenty eight

1138
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 2: percent of the male population in the United States could

1139
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:08,960
Speaker 2: be the father. He does this like tortured math based

1140
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:11,439
Speaker 2: on the DNA test to be like, well, the tests

1141
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 2: aren't very good and technically a quarter is what he's says. Hun,

1142
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 2: That's what he is trying to say, is like the

1143
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 2: test is so inaccurate, a bunch of people could be

1144
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 2: the father. It's not conclusive. What people interpret it is

1145
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 2: the way you interpret it and the way Chris Anne

1146
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 2: interprets it, which is that he's saying she's a slut, right,

1147
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 2: And that is how Lisa in her book relates her

1148
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 2: mom reading this article and it just destroys her for days,

1149
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 2: for weeks, she is like depressed like it is that

1150
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 2: it goes this article in Lisa's childhood is like a bomb,

1151
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 2: and like, how does how does your mom explain to

1152
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,920
Speaker 2: you that your dad is staying saying stuff like that

1153
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 2: about you? You know, like that is beyond cruel, Like

1154
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 2: it's such an evil, evil way to treat not just

1155
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 2: the mother of your child, but a child. You know,

1156
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:10,240
Speaker 2: it's it's pretty vile shit. So I'm going to quote

1157
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 2: again from Liz's book, and this is her describing not

1158
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 2: long after this, you know, right after the IPO and

1159
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 2: after the case gets finalized, her first meeting with her father.

1160
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 2: Just after the court case was finalized, my father came

1161
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 2: to visit me once at our house in Menlo Park,

1162
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 2: where we had rented a detached studio. It was the

1163
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 2: first time I'd seen him since I'd been a newborn

1164
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 2: in Oregon. You know who I am, he asked, He

1165
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 2: flipped his hair out of his eyes. I was three

1166
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 2: years old. I didn't I'm your father like he was

1167
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 2: Darth Vader, my mother said later when she told me

1168
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 2: the story, I'm one of the most important people you

1169
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:43,600
Speaker 2: will ever know.

1170
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 1: He's sorry here, I know, you fucking asshole. What a

1171
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:51,720
Speaker 1: fucking asshole, piece of shit moon where to dump to

1172
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: your diary daughter for the first time. Fucking hell, the

1173
00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 1: most precious gift you could ever have, and treating it

1174
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 1: this way just outrageous. So this is not the end

1175
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:09,960
Speaker 1: of the Steve Jobs being an asshole. Around nineteen eighty story,

1176
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 1: several other people get fucked over in the Apple IPO.

1177
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:17,440
Speaker 2: Again. This is like the foundational myth of Silicon Valley.

1178
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 2: Basically all of startup and VC culture revolves around the

1179
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 2: resonance of this moment. But not everyone who had built

1180
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:26,440
Speaker 2: Apple got rich. Steve had brought in a lot of

1181
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 2: brilliant people to do crucial work as contractors. He had

1182
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 2: pushed them all to told them the work we're doing,

1183
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 2: we are changing the world, this is crucial work. And

1184
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 2: then when they finished their task, He's like, why would

1185
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 2: I cut any of these guys in on stock? I

1186
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 2: don't like fuck them, you know they already did the

1187
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 2: thing I need from them. One of these people was

1188
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 2: Daniel Kottke, his former best friend and roommate. Kotkey had

1189
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 2: been like a couple of times, been like, hey, am

1190
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:51,480
Speaker 2: I going to get any stock, and Jobs was like,

1191
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 2: it'll be fine, don't worry about it, and he was like,

1192
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 2: I trusted him, so I didn't push for anything. In reality,

1193
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 2: Jobs ensured was cut out entirely right. And when Isaacson

1194
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 2: interviewed some of Jobs's friends who worked at Apple about this,

1195
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 2: one of them said that Jobs is quote anti loyal.

1196
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 2: He has to abandon the people that he's close to, and.

1197
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 3: The fuck does that mean?

1198
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 2: What the fuck?

1199
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 3: Just Eve an asshole. He's a selfish piece of shit.

1200
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 2: He is a differently He's not the kind of asshole

1201
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 2: everyone else at Apple is. Right, And for an example

1202
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:27,400
Speaker 2: of how singular a piece of shit he is, Rod Holt,

1203
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 2: the Marxist who built the power supply. He gets a

1204
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 2: lot of options, right, He's going to be very rich

1205
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 2: as a result of this. And he goes to Jobs

1206
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 2: and he's like, look, man, how about I'm going to

1207
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:38,640
Speaker 2: give Cockkey some of my options. It's not right to

1208
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 2: cut him out. He's been with us since the beginning.

1209
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:42,240
Speaker 2: I'm going to give him some of mine if you'll

1210
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 2: match them, right, if you'll equal the number of options

1211
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:46,760
Speaker 2: I'm going to give him. And Job says, okay, I'll

1212
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 2: give him zero. Now. The savior of the day here

1213
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 2: is Steve Wozniak before the IPO, even before Kotkey gets

1214
01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:59,439
Speaker 2: cut out, Wozniak realizes that a lot of like these,

1215
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:02,400
Speaker 2: a lot of these contractors are getting fucked and he

1216
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:05,120
Speaker 2: has a bunch of these like founder's stock options, and

1217
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 2: so he he takes two thousands of these options and

1218
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:11,480
Speaker 2: he gives sells them for basically pennies to forty mid

1219
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 2: level employees who he thought had gotten screwed, and most

1220
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:16,520
Speaker 2: of them wind up with enough money to buy a house. Right.

1221
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 2: They don't get rich, but they they get something as

1222
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:22,840
Speaker 2: a result of this because of Wosniac. And when Wosniak

1223
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:25,320
Speaker 2: finds out that cot Key has been fucked out, he

1224
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:27,880
Speaker 2: straight up gives Kotkey a bunch of his options. He

1225
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 2: does this to several people that job screws out, right

1226
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 2: like Wosnik. There's like jokes at Apple that Wosniak's going

1227
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 2: to go broke himself because he gives so many of

1228
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 2: his options to people that jobs cut out of the

1229
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 2: of the IPO, which says a lot about Wosniak and

1230
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 2: his attitudes as much as the Angels above the Angels

1231
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 2: the Steve Wosniac story, right, yeah, and it says a

1232
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:54,919
Speaker 2: lot obviously about Jobs too. But yeah, that's uh, that's

1233
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 2: part two. How you feel it ed.

1234
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 3: I feel bad. I feel bad about Steve Jobs because

1235
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 3: I already knew he was a deadbeat dad. I knew

1236
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,400
Speaker 3: he was a horror show of a person, an abusive

1237
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 3: manager who used to He famously screamed at the mobile

1238
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,480
Speaker 3: Me team, and there were people the first version of

1239
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:15,040
Speaker 3: iCloud effectively screamed at them, would fire people in elevators,

1240
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 3: and I didn't think he would be so I knew

1241
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 3: it'd be bad. I didn't know he was this. By comparison,

1242
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 3: most of these Silicon Valley people who are aspiring to

1243
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:29,920
Speaker 3: be Steve Jobs are actually nailing the personality.

1244
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:31,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, just not the execution.

1245
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:36,120
Speaker 3: Yes, they don't see because I think that he from

1246
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 3: what you've told me, he was quite an impressive orator,

1247
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:41,160
Speaker 3: and you could tell that from his presentations as well.

1248
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 3: But also he knew when not to piss people off

1249
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:47,760
Speaker 3: and when to be nice. Yea, even if that was

1250
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:52,120
Speaker 3: quite rare, making him so much worse like Mark Andresen

1251
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:59,080
Speaker 3: by comparison. Actually, no, we don't know his past either,

1252
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:01,479
Speaker 3: Like we'll probably get a that proves him just as bad.

1253
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,240
Speaker 3: But all of these people right now, they're really like

1254
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:07,440
Speaker 3: micro jobs, is they don't They lacked his sociopathy.

1255
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:14,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, they lacked the mix of sociopathy and actually understanding

1256
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:14,800
Speaker 2: human nature.

1257
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 3: Yes, And that's the thing. I think that that is

1258
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 3: the real thing that while these people today have his

1259
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:23,960
Speaker 3: sociopathy or his narcissism or what have you, they lack

1260
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:28,240
Speaker 3: his actual ability to understand people and understand that He

1261
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:29,760
Speaker 3: could cry or yell.

1262
01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:38,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, andreson cry. Yeah, that's all cool. Good, good shit.

1263
01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:41,160
Speaker 2: Well ed, do you have a have anything you gotta

1264
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 2: plug here?

1265
01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 3: Well, I have a podcast on cool Zone Media called

1266
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:47,520
Speaker 3: Better Offline. It's a weekly tech show about some of

1267
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:50,000
Speaker 3: the Silicon Valley people that you might have heard us

1268
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:52,919
Speaker 3: discuss today and tech in general. And you can find

1269
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:56,040
Speaker 3: it on iHeartRadio on every other place where you can

1270
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:57,920
Speaker 3: find your podcasts.

1271
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:01,959
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, well you can find us at this show.

1272
01:05:02,200 --> 01:05:04,880
Speaker 2: We have a subreddit. If you google behind the Bastards

1273
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:08,840
Speaker 2: reddit you can find that there too. You can buy

1274
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:11,120
Speaker 2: a subscription if you don't want to have ads. At

1275
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 2: cooler Zone Media, all of these things are possible.

1276
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:16,800
Speaker 3: So you just get things about Robert talking about the

1277
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:17,920
Speaker 3: eternal font of life.

1278
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:20,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly it right and how can you too

1279
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Speaker 2: can become immortal? So check all that out and most importantly,

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Speaker 2: go to Hell. I Love you.

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Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 3: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia

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Speaker 3: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast