1
00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,760
Speaker 1: This is the Benn and Ashley I Almost Famous podcast

2
00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:10,360
Speaker 1: with i R Radio. Welcome to another almost famous podcast. Uh.

3
00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,760
Speaker 1: This one is unique and it's special, and I think

4
00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:19,320
Speaker 1: it's timely. You know obviously we we usually do our

5
00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,960
Speaker 1: podcasts on Monday's. Uh the release like late Monday night

6
00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,680
Speaker 1: early Tuesday morning. Uh. This you know, this week's podcast

7
00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,720
Speaker 1: had a response that we felt as a team that

8
00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,279
Speaker 1: we should do a special episode for. It's probably not

9
00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,720
Speaker 1: an episode that you are expecting. Uh, this will look

10
00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:44,640
Speaker 1: different than most Almost Famous episodes, but I wanted to start,

11
00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,720
Speaker 1: uh just speaking to all of you as listeners. I

12
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,280
Speaker 1: know there are some very sensitive subjects going around Bachelor

13
00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,680
Speaker 1: Nation right now. As we mentioned the last podcast, they're

14
00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,000
Speaker 1: not fun to talk about. It is not why we

15
00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,960
Speaker 1: do this podcast. It is not why I sit down,

16
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:05,440
Speaker 1: own and work through this podcast. It is not the

17
00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,000
Speaker 1: fun moments, and it's not things we like to talk about.

18
00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,640
Speaker 1: But this is a podcast about what is happening in

19
00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:17,520
Speaker 1: Bachelor Nation. We are trying our best to cover those

20
00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,440
Speaker 1: using the information that we know and sharing that with

21
00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:26,759
Speaker 1: the listeners because that's what we've committed to. We as

22
00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,480
Speaker 1: hosts don't have a script. There's no practice for this,

23
00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:35,640
Speaker 1: and we say things in the moment that can be misconstrued,

24
00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:42,319
Speaker 1: and our communication can sometimes fail, and mistakes happen. Ah,

25
00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:47,680
Speaker 1: I I know they happen. They happen, happen often with me,

26
00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,600
Speaker 1: and I'm sure if you're a listener you also can

27
00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,320
Speaker 1: relate with You've said things in the moment that you

28
00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,160
Speaker 1: didn't really mean, and somehow they got communicating in a

29
00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,280
Speaker 1: way that you never intended them to be. Communication aided

30
00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,920
Speaker 1: and they sat with whoever you were talking to in

31
00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:09,040
Speaker 1: a way that maybe was um offensive and you had

32
00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:14,440
Speaker 1: to recommunicate, re explain yourself. And that's what I have

33
00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,680
Speaker 1: to do now. I know. On the last podcast, I

34
00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,400
Speaker 1: made the comment that love makes you do crazy things

35
00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,520
Speaker 1: that at no level, and I want to reinforce this

36
00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:30,520
Speaker 1: was justifying any actions. It was never my intention and

37
00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,440
Speaker 1: it's never my hope and it's not my feelings to

38
00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:38,880
Speaker 1: justify any actions that have happened within Bachelor Nation. That

39
00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:45,200
Speaker 1: comment was irresponsible at best. It was something that I

40
00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,160
Speaker 1: said in the moment that I would have loved to

41
00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,000
Speaker 1: follow up on and say, yeah, that's not what I meant.

42
00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,320
Speaker 1: I don't think true, healthy, good love makes you do

43
00:02:55,440 --> 00:03:00,200
Speaker 1: crazy things I don't want to justify anybody's actions here.

44
00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,720
Speaker 1: There is no justification for it. But I do want

45
00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,000
Speaker 1: to make it clear that nothing I said was in

46
00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,400
Speaker 1: support of any actions that are damaging to any other human.

47
00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:15,600
Speaker 1: What I want to do is say things that help

48
00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,120
Speaker 1: and hurt, and we want to walk this line on

49
00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,880
Speaker 1: sensitive subjects. To do that, it's not easy and I'm

50
00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,679
Speaker 1: not great at it. I try really hard, and I'm

51
00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,240
Speaker 1: gonna fail. And if you're listening to this podcast for

52
00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,639
Speaker 1: the last how many years we've been doing it, you

53
00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,200
Speaker 1: know I failed. But I also hope you can see

54
00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,920
Speaker 1: that we're trying. This is not fun for us to

55
00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,720
Speaker 1: sit down and make anybody's life worse. It's not to

56
00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,360
Speaker 1: hope for this. It doesn't do anything for Ashley or I.

57
00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,360
Speaker 1: Our hope is that we sit down, we discuss a

58
00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,640
Speaker 1: show that we've experienced and that you all watch and

59
00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,520
Speaker 1: you all enjoy, and at the end of it, we

60
00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,000
Speaker 1: wash our hands clean and we move on with the week.

61
00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,640
Speaker 1: And this week it's heavy on my chest because I

62
00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:02,600
Speaker 1: know there was words said that have sat with you

63
00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,280
Speaker 1: all and that have offended you all, and for that,

64
00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,640
Speaker 1: I am sorry. It was not my intent. There is

65
00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:12,600
Speaker 1: no justification within those words, they are irresponsible words. I

66
00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:17,320
Speaker 1: think at best, I was trying to explain the excuses

67
00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,200
Speaker 1: that have been given to why things happened within Bachelor Nation.

68
00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:27,279
Speaker 1: But I'm sorry, I'm not justifying any actions. I don't

69
00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,719
Speaker 1: want anybody to hurt worse. I don't want anybody to

70
00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:34,279
Speaker 1: feel like I am on the side of anybody but

71
00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:39,080
Speaker 1: somebody hurting deeply, which is a victim. So it is

72
00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,440
Speaker 1: important for me to start this podcast out and say that,

73
00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,159
Speaker 1: going off of what Ben said, words are powerful, and

74
00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,960
Speaker 1: this week was a lesson for us that we have

75
00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,440
Speaker 1: to be careful, way more careful with our words. When

76
00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,480
Speaker 1: Ben said love makes you crazy, I knew he meant

77
00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,440
Speaker 1: heartbreak and get so dark for some people that it

78
00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,600
Speaker 1: drives a person to a point where their actions are dangerous,

79
00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:11,320
Speaker 1: fear inducing, and mental help is necessary. What love doesn't

80
00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,920
Speaker 1: do is excuse inexcusable behavior. That's something that we did

81
00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:21,040
Speaker 1: fail to say. Our intentions were never to excuse disgusting

82
00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,280
Speaker 1: behavior by saying such things as love makes you crazy.

83
00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:29,599
Speaker 1: And while others aren't able to read our heart and

84
00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:34,240
Speaker 1: our minds intention, that's the purpose of well chosen words,

85
00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:39,840
Speaker 1: and as a podcast host, well, Um, chosen chosen good

86
00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,000
Speaker 1: chosen words are kind of important, UM, and this has

87
00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,640
Speaker 1: been a reminder of that this week. Today we want

88
00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,920
Speaker 1: to learn how to discuss sensitive subjects better. We decided

89
00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,719
Speaker 1: to do this podcast that we can learn, alongside any

90
00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,960
Speaker 1: of you listening, how to better talk about things like this,

91
00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,400
Speaker 1: so that we can ensure that we're helping and not hurting.

92
00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,440
Speaker 1: The money that Ben and I make from today's episode

93
00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,760
Speaker 1: of The Almost This podcast will be donated to RAIN.

94
00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,520
Speaker 1: It's a nonprofit helping victims of sexual assault. And our

95
00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,120
Speaker 1: first guest today is Dr Hillary Golscher. She's a licensed

96
00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,760
Speaker 1: clinical psychologist with a private practice in Beverly Hills and

97
00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,640
Speaker 1: she specializes in the treatment of couples and relationships, depression, anxiety,

98
00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:33,800
Speaker 1: and trauma. Hey, Dr Gulscher, how are you doing good? Ashley?

99
00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,039
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. How do you bend to thank

100
00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:41,320
Speaker 1: you for being here? So just our listeners are out there? Um,

101
00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,400
Speaker 1: can you give a little background about why you're here

102
00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,479
Speaker 1: right now? Like what makes you equipped to speak with us? Sure?

103
00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,240
Speaker 1: I'm a clinical psychologist. I practice in Beverly Hills and

104
00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:56,200
Speaker 1: one of my areas of specialty is around domestic violence

105
00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,200
Speaker 1: and it sounds like there's been a lot of really

106
00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:04,000
Speaker 1: important discussions and the whole range of feelings about the

107
00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,400
Speaker 1: topics you've discussed over the last podcasts, and I feel

108
00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,560
Speaker 1: like I'm in a really good position to sort of

109
00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:18,440
Speaker 1: address concerns confusion, upset and this super important topic. You know,

110
00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:23,440
Speaker 1: can we start there then? Um? We this podcast is

111
00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,360
Speaker 1: not We just talked about it, but it's just not

112
00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,360
Speaker 1: fun to talk about those like the subjects that are

113
00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,640
Speaker 1: are heavy and burden full and they're just sensitive. They're

114
00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:36,600
Speaker 1: sensitive topics. Um. There's obviously things that I said on

115
00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,680
Speaker 1: the podcast. Before I made the comment, I said love

116
00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,800
Speaker 1: makes you do crazy things. And I've already spoken to

117
00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,280
Speaker 1: the fact that I didn't mean it in any really

118
00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,840
Speaker 1: with anything. It was an irresponsible thing for me to

119
00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:51,840
Speaker 1: say because I had no weight behind it. It had

120
00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,320
Speaker 1: no intention behind it. It was just the thing I said. Uh.

121
00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,600
Speaker 1: And I now recognize based on a few people who

122
00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,920
Speaker 1: have been awesome to me, who um our victims or

123
00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:05,400
Speaker 1: they know somebody close to the victims, that said, hey,

124
00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,560
Speaker 1: this is why this was offensive. It was offensive because

125
00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:12,000
Speaker 1: it felt like you were justifying that love, uh gives

126
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:16,120
Speaker 1: you the the excuse to do things that are harmful

127
00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,160
Speaker 1: or hurtful, and I recognized that now that was that

128
00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,000
Speaker 1: that's not that was not at all what I wanted.

129
00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:22,920
Speaker 1: But I would love if you could spend a few

130
00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,880
Speaker 1: moments and talk about, you know, when we do speak openly,

131
00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:31,320
Speaker 1: like how how we navigate these sensitive subjects so that

132
00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:36,120
Speaker 1: we aren't harmful in our speech, especially when we're just

133
00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,440
Speaker 1: we're you know, when they're just topics that come up

134
00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,720
Speaker 1: and we have to speak off of off the cuff. Yeah. Yeah,

135
00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,840
Speaker 1: it's such a complex question and the right one to ask.

136
00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,080
Speaker 1: I mean it we have, of course, want to address

137
00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,520
Speaker 1: these topics with a lot of sensitivity and with the

138
00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:55,840
Speaker 1: goal of listening, right, I mean, whenever we're talking about

139
00:08:55,880 --> 00:09:00,160
Speaker 1: something where people have been harmed emotionally or physically want

140
00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,200
Speaker 1: to be listening. We want to ask a lot of questions.

141
00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,320
Speaker 1: We want to understand what their experiences before we offer

142
00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,000
Speaker 1: our perspective or opinion. I think that's a really important

143
00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,720
Speaker 1: thing for all of us to try to strive towards. However,

144
00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,200
Speaker 1: we all in conversation with our friends and family and

145
00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,680
Speaker 1: loved ones, and conversations in podcasts or um in groups

146
00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:26,679
Speaker 1: of friends get animated um and involved the conversations and

147
00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,880
Speaker 1: and say things that we might not think through before him.

148
00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:34,559
Speaker 1: So to me, this is a beautiful teaching moment um

149
00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:36,679
Speaker 1: and and then and it might not be fun to

150
00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,520
Speaker 1: be at the center of it um for you, but

151
00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,920
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful teaching moment. We're all human, we all

152
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,000
Speaker 1: say things at moments that we don't think about or

153
00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,160
Speaker 1: come to learn impact someone in a way that we

154
00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,199
Speaker 1: never intended. So this is a moment to sort of

155
00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,840
Speaker 1: really step back for you, for all of your listeners

156
00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,280
Speaker 1: that when you're talking about things like this like harassment,

157
00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:02,240
Speaker 1: domestic violence and that arena of pain that people go through,

158
00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:04,640
Speaker 1: that we want to be really, really careful about the

159
00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:06,680
Speaker 1: words that we choose. We want to ask a lot

160
00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,959
Speaker 1: of questions, we want to understand what people are going through,

161
00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,280
Speaker 1: and we want to bring a lot of sensitivity to

162
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,640
Speaker 1: the topic. And part of it is that there's just

163
00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,280
Speaker 1: a lack of discussion and education around this issue. This

164
00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,320
Speaker 1: isn't something people talk about in a lot of different

165
00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,680
Speaker 1: circles often, and so part of my hope what we're

166
00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,719
Speaker 1: doing here today is increasing our ability to have these

167
00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,560
Speaker 1: kind of conversations, not just shy away from them, but

168
00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:35,599
Speaker 1: how do we have them productively and respectfully. So some

169
00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,720
Speaker 1: of our feedback from Monday's episode was people telling us

170
00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,520
Speaker 1: that we shouldn't be discussing matters like this, like this

171
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,480
Speaker 1: is not the point of our podcast, And part of

172
00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,120
Speaker 1: me was like, oh, maybe, and then the other part

173
00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:53,559
Speaker 1: of me thought, well, don't we need to talk about

174
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,960
Speaker 1: this in order to prevent it from happening to more people?

175
00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,720
Speaker 1: And I guess my question is, and it comes to

176
00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:07,160
Speaker 1: high profile UH cases like this, do we let them

177
00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,959
Speaker 1: be dealt with as privately as possible or do we

178
00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,040
Speaker 1: discuss it like we we are today. I think it's

179
00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,000
Speaker 1: a fine line. I think we have to be really

180
00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:21,440
Speaker 1: careful about delving into the details of anyone's issues around

181
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:26,080
Speaker 1: domestic violence or harassment stalking. If we don't have all

182
00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,160
Speaker 1: the information at hand, whether it's a high profile case

183
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,640
Speaker 1: or um something in our personal circles, I think we

184
00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,360
Speaker 1: have to be really careful about it because if we

185
00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,440
Speaker 1: don't have all the information, there's a lot of hypothesis

186
00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,520
Speaker 1: and speculation, and that can be hurtful or harmful to people. However,

187
00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,479
Speaker 1: I think we can have a really important macro discussion

188
00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,400
Speaker 1: about the issue of domestic violence and the issue of

189
00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,320
Speaker 1: stalking and harassment and even um what happens to people

190
00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,079
Speaker 1: on both sides of that equation, right, Like, what is

191
00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,480
Speaker 1: it like to be a victim of stalking and harassment

192
00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,360
Speaker 1: and domestic violence? What is it due to someone psychologically?

193
00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,160
Speaker 1: What does it take to speak out um publicly or

194
00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:09,320
Speaker 1: to seek legal assistant and assistance? And if you're on

195
00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,719
Speaker 1: the other end of it and have perpetrated um um

196
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,000
Speaker 1: these type of wounds against someone, how does that come

197
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,440
Speaker 1: to pass and how does someone like that begin to heal?

198
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,560
Speaker 1: I think those are all really important discussions to have,

199
00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,679
Speaker 1: both on a micro and a macro level. So I

200
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,120
Speaker 1: think I think it's possible for both to happen. It

201
00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,760
Speaker 1: can coexist, that you can talk about this issue, about

202
00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,600
Speaker 1: these two folks from this nation of people that you

203
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:39,200
Speaker 1: talk about a lot, without um delving so deep into areas,

204
00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,240
Speaker 1: uh that that with which you aren't familiar. So I

205
00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,320
Speaker 1: think I think both can be accomplished. Well, let's start

206
00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:49,000
Speaker 1: there then, UM, Because obviously the last few days of

207
00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,760
Speaker 1: just and this is not about me at any level,

208
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:56,200
Speaker 1: but they've been really hard to process because I know

209
00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,679
Speaker 1: how I feel and I and I also know that

210
00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:00,320
Speaker 1: how I actually feels and I know we do want

211
00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:01,800
Speaker 1: to help and not hurt, and that there's things we

212
00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:06,760
Speaker 1: say sometimes that definitely hurt, and I guess um as

213
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,280
Speaker 1: we do. Then begin to speak up or let's move

214
00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:12,120
Speaker 1: it to this example. Then say we have a friend

215
00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:17,520
Speaker 1: who is on both sides of this situation. What can

216
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,679
Speaker 1: we do as friends, UH to be helpful to them

217
00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,440
Speaker 1: in situations like this? And let's start with speaking to

218
00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,440
Speaker 1: the victim. If there is somebody that has been hurt

219
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,400
Speaker 1: and pain, how do we as humans communicate with them

220
00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:36,199
Speaker 1: to allow them to feel safe into at least to

221
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,520
Speaker 1: however they want to open up to us. Yes, such

222
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,800
Speaker 1: an important question and I sort of alluded to it before,

223
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,920
Speaker 1: but really important to repeat. Being a listener, asking a

224
00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:52,080
Speaker 1: lot of questions, slowing down your case and your energy,

225
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,160
Speaker 1: and just deeply sinking into meeting the person where they're

226
00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,720
Speaker 1: at and hearing their story. Support and empathy and compassion

227
00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:03,000
Speaker 1: is key because most people who are in situations where

228
00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,600
Speaker 1: they are victims domestic violence or stalking harassment feel a

229
00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,280
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of anxiety and fear and helplessness and a

230
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,640
Speaker 1: sense of feeling sort of out of control. And there's

231
00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,199
Speaker 1: a lot of feelings around talking about it publicly, um,

232
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,840
Speaker 1: not just publiclylike in the format where you all are

233
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,400
Speaker 1: dealing with, but just publicly to to friends and family.

234
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:26,120
Speaker 1: It can feel um. One can feel shame, embarrassment, fear

235
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:31,200
Speaker 1: of retaliation from the person whom they are accusing. And

236
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,800
Speaker 1: there's so there's such a myriad of feelings that someone

237
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,880
Speaker 1: in that position is going to experience. So sitting with

238
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,480
Speaker 1: them and being able to absorb those feelings, listen and

239
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,640
Speaker 1: ask questions and offer empathy and compassion is key. Is

240
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,120
Speaker 1: a requirement, you know, for that person to be able

241
00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,240
Speaker 1: to sit with you and feel hurt and safe. And

242
00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,800
Speaker 1: I think if you only do one thing, it's that

243
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,680
Speaker 1: And then the second is trying to figure out what

244
00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:04,160
Speaker 1: level of um of concern or danger that this person

245
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:09,240
Speaker 1: is experiencing and our external resources required, And so that

246
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,200
Speaker 1: mean reaching out to a therapist, Does that mean reaching

247
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,920
Speaker 1: out to authorities, Does that mean reaching out to parents

248
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,280
Speaker 1: or family, etcetera. Making sure that you're helping that person

249
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:24,800
Speaker 1: mobilized resources. What do you do if you don't have

250
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,880
Speaker 1: proof that there's something danger is going on, but you

251
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,280
Speaker 1: have a sense that your friend in a relationship is

252
00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,600
Speaker 1: going through something very serious, how do you approach that

253
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:38,480
Speaker 1: if they don't bring it up to you, do do

254
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,400
Speaker 1: you at all approach it? Such a good question. My

255
00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,080
Speaker 1: opinion is that you do approach it, but you approach

256
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,440
Speaker 1: it in a way that is open, that is flexible,

257
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,000
Speaker 1: and that is without pressure, so that you're going to

258
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:55,000
Speaker 1: someone and saying a version of my my intuition is

259
00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:57,520
Speaker 1: saying that something's happening here and I just want to

260
00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,560
Speaker 1: check in with you. Is there any way in which

261
00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,920
Speaker 1: you're feeling not safe physically, emotionally and if the person

262
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,480
Speaker 1: is quickly defensive or I'm dismissive, and you still have

263
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,480
Speaker 1: that suspicion, making sure that you create an open door,

264
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,360
Speaker 1: that you create an open space. Okay, I hear you.

265
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,280
Speaker 1: I just want to let you know I'm no matter what,

266
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,040
Speaker 1: I'm here for you. I support the relationship, something happens,

267
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,320
Speaker 1: I'm here for you. I'm always a resource for you

268
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,640
Speaker 1: and making sure that you aren't um uh, pushing your

269
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,120
Speaker 1: opinion or your agenda or your fears too close to

270
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,080
Speaker 1: that person so that they shut down and don't see

271
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,120
Speaker 1: you as as a safe haven to go to it

272
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,040
Speaker 1: some other time. I mean, if you think someone is

273
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:40,080
Speaker 1: in imminent danger, then you're gonna want to go to UM,

274
00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,960
Speaker 1: the authorities or something UM of course, But in the

275
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,480
Speaker 1: scenario that you describe where you have an inkling and

276
00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,200
Speaker 1: aren't sure, in my opinion, the key is keeping the

277
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,000
Speaker 1: door open so that that person can come to you

278
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,440
Speaker 1: if something happens and they need help. I always struggle,

279
00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,520
Speaker 1: UM before we move into then something that I don't

280
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,560
Speaker 1: think it's talked about a lot um. One thing you've

281
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,880
Speaker 1: hinted at is talking about what we do if there

282
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,800
Speaker 1: is somebody on the harassing or stalking end of things,

283
00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:09,760
Speaker 1: and how we deal with that. But before we get there,

284
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,240
Speaker 1: one scenario I always struggle with is you know, when

285
00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,080
Speaker 1: when I know there's something traumatic or really difficult going

286
00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:18,920
Speaker 1: on in somebody's life that is a friend of mine

287
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:23,000
Speaker 1: that I have communication with, often, I never know if

288
00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,440
Speaker 1: I should be the one reaching out. I never know

289
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,119
Speaker 1: if And and maybe this could be the transition then

290
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,960
Speaker 1: into talking about both sides because I don't know my

291
00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,159
Speaker 1: role in this, because I know how I feel, I

292
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,000
Speaker 1: know what what I stand for, but yet there's still

293
00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,639
Speaker 1: humans at play here, and and those humans still matter

294
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,080
Speaker 1: uh to to you as a friend or to what

295
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,560
Speaker 1: you know? So do you reach out. Do you just

296
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:50,679
Speaker 1: wait till they reach out? How do you deal with that?

297
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,920
Speaker 1: You know, I work a lot with people, UM, who

298
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,920
Speaker 1: are dealing with grief, who have lost Lauren's sisters, brothers, children, etcetera,

299
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,040
Speaker 1: And this question comes up a lot. Should I reach

300
00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,680
Speaker 1: out to my friend who lost a daughter? UM, I'm

301
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,840
Speaker 1: so anxious about the idea of having that conversation, of

302
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,320
Speaker 1: triggering something with them, of reaching out that they haven't

303
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,960
Speaker 1: reached out to me, etcetera. And almost always, when you

304
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,440
Speaker 1: speak to the person dealing with the grief, they always

305
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:24,080
Speaker 1: want welcome being reached out, to, being told that they're

306
00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,760
Speaker 1: being thought of, letting them know that there's someone there

307
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,720
Speaker 1: for them should they need it, and are never additionally

308
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,960
Speaker 1: traumatized by someone bringing up the topic, so to speak.

309
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,280
Speaker 1: So all of this to say that through that in

310
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,359
Speaker 1: particular and through my work as a clinician, the answer

311
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,720
Speaker 1: is is sort of an unabashedly yes that I don't

312
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:47,879
Speaker 1: think you can ever lose to to go to a

313
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,240
Speaker 1: loved one or a friend and say I'm thinking of you,

314
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,920
Speaker 1: I'm here. And if this isn't the right time for you,

315
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,080
Speaker 1: if it isn't something you want to talk about, absolutely

316
00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:58,520
Speaker 1: respect that, but I want to let you know that

317
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:00,239
Speaker 1: I'm here and I'm a resource for you of him

318
00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,880
Speaker 1: when you're ready. I think it's a really important thing,

319
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,159
Speaker 1: and it can be a really uncomfortable thing, because to

320
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,920
Speaker 1: move into the space of someone suffering, even via text

321
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,560
Speaker 1: or via phone call or a drop live visit, is

322
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,199
Speaker 1: is vulnerable. Is anxiety provoking is difficult. It makes us

323
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,720
Speaker 1: feel awkward, It makes us feel difficult when we're reaching out.

324
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,240
Speaker 1: But we have to kind of reach out outside of

325
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,560
Speaker 1: ourselves and be in that uncomfortable space in the service

326
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,160
Speaker 1: of letting someone know we're thinking of them. It's it's

327
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,320
Speaker 1: sort of I mean, it's sort of like humanity. What

328
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,680
Speaker 1: brings us together is that kind of connection and letting

329
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:36,840
Speaker 1: people know that, like I'm thinking of you when things

330
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:41,439
Speaker 1: are hard. You said a word there that uh you know,

331
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,320
Speaker 1: it's a good I don't know if it's something I've

332
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,640
Speaker 1: learned already in the last uh you know, a couple

333
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,040
Speaker 1: of minutes of us talking, but the triggering and being

334
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,080
Speaker 1: more careful of the language used to and because I

335
00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,440
Speaker 1: think personally I struggle with trying to fill the gap

336
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,359
Speaker 1: in those conversations, like not letting silence sit it and

337
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,240
Speaker 1: just trying to say something to fill the gap, to

338
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,840
Speaker 1: try to make it feel better. And something that as

339
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,160
Speaker 1: you're talking that's reminded me is sometimes I can't fill

340
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,440
Speaker 1: that gap in when I do, there's actually something there

341
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,240
Speaker 1: that I would say that is triggering and hurtful and harmful.

342
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,960
Speaker 1: And allowing those silence, those moments of silence to be

343
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,439
Speaker 1: there and then asking those questions to learn and to

344
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,200
Speaker 1: not assume are just that's I don't know, that's something

345
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 1: I'm taking out of this. And as I sit here

346
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,159
Speaker 1: here and you talk, I'm saying, yes, this is exactly

347
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,159
Speaker 1: why we wanted to do this, so that hopefully I

348
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,840
Speaker 1: can learn and leave this and people listening and actually

349
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,119
Speaker 1: can leave this and become a better friend or a

350
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,320
Speaker 1: better partner or whatever that looks like. Um. One thing

351
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 1: that's a difficult subject that that I don't even know

352
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,280
Speaker 1: how to broach or even asking too, is what do

353
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 1: you do for somebody that is on the other side?

354
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,639
Speaker 1: What is our role there as humans? And how do

355
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 1: we navigate that appropriately without causing more harm? Yeah, it's

356
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 1: it's a really difficult question and there's only imperfect answers.

357
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it's so messy and difficult. If someone that

358
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 1: we love engages in behavior that is wrong. I mean,

359
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,640
Speaker 1: it's really painful for everyone involved. So I think it's

360
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,880
Speaker 1: just really important to acknowledge that upfront that no matter

361
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,359
Speaker 1: what we do, it's going to be a little messy,

362
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 1: because that's a really really messy scenario someone we loved,

363
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 1: it's something that is wrong or hurt another person. You know,

364
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,400
Speaker 1: there's not much we can do that's going to um

365
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 1: fully heal that fracture. Having said all that, I think

366
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,880
Speaker 1: that it is important to acknowledge the person who has

367
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,960
Speaker 1: engaged in the wrong behavior in some way to let

368
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,400
Speaker 1: them know that you have heard their story, that you're

369
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,399
Speaker 1: thinking of them and wishing them healing. You know, a

370
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,560
Speaker 1: version of being able to stand in the sphere of

371
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,679
Speaker 1: someone who is dealing with something difficult and trying to

372
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:58,680
Speaker 1: heal and find um forgiveness within themselves and find better

373
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,560
Speaker 1: ways and better copy mac isms, that you can stand

374
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 1: even symbolically to support that effort, even if you aren't

375
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 1: directly involved. So communicating in some way that I support

376
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 1: your effort as you move towards healing UM and I

377
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,639
Speaker 1: want you to know that kind of thing could serve

378
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,160
Speaker 1: to communicate I'm thinking of you. I'm here from you

379
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 1: for you, and I am um supporting the idea of

380
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 1: this being changed worthy behavior, you know, so trying to navigate,

381
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 1: UM what I think you're asking, which is, how do

382
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 1: I love on someone? How do I support someone and

383
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 1: also make it clear that I don't endorse or support

384
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,680
Speaker 1: the behavior. So there's there's some version of being able

385
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 1: to do that in a respectful way. I mean, it

386
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 1: depends on the role of the person that you're talking about.

387
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 1: If it's a dearer friend of yours, you might have

388
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 1: a more candid conversation with that person. How did this happen?

389
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 1: Where did things go wrong? How can I support you

390
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,719
Speaker 1: in figuring out a different way? You know? Right? If

391
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 1: it's someone that you know less well and are just

392
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 1: trying to sort of put out into the world that

393
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 1: you don't support the behavior and that you do support healing,

394
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 1: and there's probably a way to do that without triggering

395
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 1: um too many people in your own spere and in

396
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 1: that person's here. I UM find myself frustratingly inarticulate, especially

397
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: in tough, sticky situation like the heart of the situation,

398
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 1: to talk about the the less words come to me right,

399
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 1: and things just may come out that I that don't

400
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 1: do the job that I intended them to do. Like

401
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier, I guess, what are some

402
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: trigger words or phrases that I wouldn't think were offensive

403
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 1: to a victim? But are Can you think of anyone? Mhm?

404
00:23:51,400 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 1: I think the notion of over questioning the victim about, UM,

405
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: their narrative. I thought you guys, I thought you guys

406
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 1: were in a really good place. I've never seen that

407
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: kind of energy between you two, you know, any anything

408
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 1: that might demonstrate, UM, a dismissiveness or a denial or

409
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:22,479
Speaker 1: a disbelief of the victim's story. UM, we really want

410
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 1: to be careful to avoid. I think that that's that's

411
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: a primary thing that comes to mind. UM. I think

412
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 1: platitudes can be difficult for people to take into. Oh

413
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 1: that's really hard, you know kind of thing, UM, really

414
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: asking questions and sitting back and listening I think is critical.

415
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: What what's that? What's this been like for you? How

416
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: was it been? It's hard for me to imagine. I

417
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: would love to sit with you as you talk about it,

418
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 1: you know kind of thing. You know, Ben mentioned something

419
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 1: really important which I want to rehighlight around being able

420
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: to tell lerate that silence and that I guess awkwardness.

421
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 1: This is a messy, awkward situation, the one that we're

422
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: talking about, specifically, in any situation, whether there's domestic violence

423
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,719
Speaker 1: or harassment or stalking, and so, but being able to

424
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 1: tolerate the messiness of it as as someone on the outside,

425
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: as someone who's not the victim. You know, that's that's

426
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: a job we should probably try to take on. You know,

427
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: since we're not the victim, we're not the perpetrator, we're

428
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 1: a support member. And so being able to sit in

429
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: the silence, being able to sit in the awkwardness, being

430
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 1: able to say I'm not even sure what to say

431
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: right now, but I'm I'm just gonna sit here with you.

432
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: I think are really important skills to cultivate in moments

433
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: like this. We don't have to fix it. As a

434
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 1: support number. We we cannot fix it. We cannot. That

435
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 1: isn't our job. The best that we can do is

436
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: to let people know we love you, We're here, I'm

437
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: sitting with you in this. I thank you for all

438
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: of this. By the way, this is really helpful for me, um,

439
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: and I hope it is for the listener, especially coming

440
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: off of, you know, something that was contentious and misunderstood

441
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: and really fired people up. I I was told I

442
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 1: was talking to Buddy yesterday and was just like just

443
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: in the worst possible place mentally, and he he just

444
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 1: reminded me, he said, hey, like this is really hard. Uh,

445
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 1: you know your intentions. Um, it sometimes takes really difficult

446
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: situations to bring about something positive. And I think what

447
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: I'm feeling is like the firing up and the anger

448
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 1: it was was healthy at some level, because what it

449
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: is is it forces us to sit down and say, Okay,

450
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: let's regroup and let's talk about how we actually communicate

451
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: to others who have really difficult situations, and maybe we

452
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: can all take something away from the message that you're

453
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 1: sharing and go, I just want to be a better friend,

454
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: a better partner, a better son, a better sister, whatever

455
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: that is. Uh. And I hope that's happening. Um, it's

456
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,719
Speaker 1: happening for me. Uh. If we could spend a few moments,

457
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: something that was intrigued to me is you know, it's

458
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: no secret we're in a very divisive time in the

459
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: United States, especially. Uh. It feels like, especially during quarantine

460
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 1: I hear more and more often that people just feel

461
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: like they can't communicate with each other, and that there's

462
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: these silos that we run into and everybody's yelling at

463
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: each other, you know, through the silo, and nobody actually

464
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: wants to enter in to understand where the other person

465
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 1: is coming from. With that being the stage, it's set

466
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 1: right now, and for a lot of us feeling it.

467
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: I don't want to assume everybody, but a lot of

468
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: us is feeling it. How do we navigate then moving

469
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 1: from difficult situations that can that surround trauma to then

470
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: just moving about our everyday lives talking about things that

471
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 1: are triggering Mm. So you're saying, how do how do

472
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: how do those things coexist both the truth that trauma

473
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 1: has occurred is occurring, and how do we also go

474
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: about our sort of regular day. Yeah, and and then

475
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: moving then into like how do we start talking about

476
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: difficult subjects that maybe don't aren't back by trauma, but

477
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 1: they're back by our passions and our feelings, if that

478
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: be spiritually, politically, emotionally. So what you're saying, Yeah, I

479
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: think it's it's a it's a really timely question for um.

480
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 1: The environment in which we find ourselves and a lot

481
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 1: of important discussions need to happen right now in our society.

482
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 1: So it's really good to be thinking about how do

483
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 1: I do this in a way that's most digestible. I

484
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 1: think that's what you're talking about. So being able to

485
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: narrate that upfront, I think it's really really important. Um,

486
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: you know, in the context of a podcast that you host,

487
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: or when you're talking with friends or family, being able

488
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: to say I have a lot on my mind right

489
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: now and I want to I want to share it,

490
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: I want to talk about it. I want to elicit

491
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: feedback and have discourse. But it's it's difficult material, it's

492
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: it's triggering. Um, it's about the BLM movement, it's about

493
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: domestic violence, it's about our our upcoming election. Are you

494
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: available to have that kind of discussion. I'd like to

495
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: do it if you're up for it kind of thing.

496
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: I mean, this is and something you could ask on

497
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: a podcast, but if you're with friends or family, and

498
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: if you're about to do something like that on a podcast,

499
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: sort of letting the audience know that we're gonna we're

500
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: gonna go into some territory that might be triggering. There's

501
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: that word again. That might be complex, that might be messy,

502
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: but it's important as people, especially given the times that

503
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: we're in, to go there so we can all learn,

504
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: so we can educate, so we can transform. And so

505
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: I think when people feel like they have UM a

506
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: narrative to present what your intentions are and to let

507
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: them know what's coming that they are, they feel more

508
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: open to it and feel more contained before you enter

509
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: into the part where you're talking about really difficult material

510
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: and triggering stuff. So I think that's a way that

511
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: we can be careful UM with our words and with

512
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: our sentiments, but not shut down and avoid them. Because

513
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: we don't want to do that either. Why not why

514
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: I mean why in these moments, in holistically what we've

515
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: just talked about through this up until this point on

516
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: this podcast, why don't we want to just ignore them

517
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: and shut down. If we ignore them and shut down,

518
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: we never learned, We never grow, we never transform, we

519
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: never change. As I was looking at some of the

520
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: discourse that was happening on your UM Instagram page, one

521
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: of the reasons I wanted to come join you today

522
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: is that I didn't want the conversation to get foreclosed because,

523
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: for example, domestic violence is a really important topic and

524
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: a lot of people have UM shame, embarrassment, and myriad

525
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: of experiences that they can't imagine sharing because it feels

526
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: so triggering and um they fear that there's judgment and repercussions.

527
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: And I don't want that for people that are victims.

528
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: I want there to be a discussion that can feel

529
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: supportive and open and has an opportunity to educate people

530
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: who don't know you know, who don't know about it,

531
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: who don't know how to talk about it. And that

532
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: goes for all sensitive topics. If we shut down and

533
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: don't don't talk about it, we never grow and transform

534
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: and change change. And we see that with the Black

535
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: Lives movement now right is that finally as a society

536
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: we're starting to talk about it and things are beginning

537
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: slowly to change. Do you think that there's anything that

538
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: we should talk about now that we have an addressed

539
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: yet that will help educate people on this. I think

540
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: talking about what happened yesterday or whenever you guys did

541
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: that the podcast is probably the most key thing that

542
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,479
Speaker 1: you can do in terms of educating people. How having

543
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: um um casual discussions about sensitive, difficult, painful topics can

544
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: impact people, right, And I think I think that's the

545
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: thread of your message, is part of the recognition that,

546
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: like may, we want to be able to talk about this,

547
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: and we want to do it in the best way possible,

548
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: and so being able to stand up and go, wow,

549
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: we we might not have done that in the best

550
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,479
Speaker 1: way possible. Um, And and we're okay standing up and

551
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: saying that because we wanted the examples of how to

552
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: again grow, transform and do it differently. And so to me,

553
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,959
Speaker 1: I hope that's the biggest takeaway for folks listening is that, right,

554
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: we all might make mistakes when we talk about things

555
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: that are messy because it's hard, and um, we get confused,

556
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: we we we lose the through line. Um, we're overly

557
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: casual in a moment um and we can step back

558
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: and learn and impact people in a more positive way.

559
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: We never want to lose a moment like that. We discussed, Um,

560
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: we discussed cancel culture a couple you know, during the

561
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: same podcast, and I think that what I don't like

562
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: about cancel culture so much is that it's just not

563
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: forgiving and it doesn't allow people to learn from their mistakes,

564
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: And UM, I guess, how do you feel that counterculture

565
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: is affecting these kinds of kinds of conversation, because now

566
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: I feel like there's even more fear or round having

567
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: conversations like this. I talk a lot about cancel culture

568
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: in my work, and I always say there's there's probably

569
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: a time and a place for cancel culture, like a

570
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein or something right where there's been there's been

571
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: such sort of documented a borrent behavior that disaffiliating from

572
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: someone like that makes a lot of sense. So in

573
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: some ways that it can apply, and it's it's a

574
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: way that society can hold someone accountable who has wronged

575
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: so many people on that level. Having said that, in

576
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: a situation like you guys are dealing with, when someone

577
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: does or says something that feels hurtful or triggering to people,

578
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: if we totally foreclose conversation, we absolutely lose moments for

579
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: people to grow and change and educate themselves and to

580
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,959
Speaker 1: educate um others that are participating or listening. And so

581
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: I think it it really can do harm in that sense.

582
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: And if we have willing spirits like you two are,

583
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: who want to learn, who want to listen who want

584
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: to hear and grow and think about this and talk

585
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: about that. We don't want to miss that. In my opinion,

586
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 1: we don't want to miss that at all. We want

587
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 1: to highlight it. And we have two people are willing

588
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: to be vulnerable and say, like, I don't know if

589
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 1: that went as well as it could have. I want

590
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: to do that better. Let's hold that up. Like I said,

591
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: if we have willing spirits and show people what it

592
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 1: looks like to go, I might out of like how

593
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: that went. I want to do it differently. I want

594
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 1: to talk about it, want to be vulnerable. And I

595
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: think if we were able to do that in um

596
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: small and large scales over and over and over again,

597
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 1: we'd be more connected as a society. So I think

598
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 1: every little moment like this matters, where we have someone

599
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 1: who is willing to say I want to be vulnerable,

600
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: I want to learn. So I dislike cancel culture when

601
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 1: it's applied in this kind of situation because we miss

602
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: all of that, and that's where a lot of the

603
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: beauty and learning comes. We're you know, because this is

604
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: what how been on our podcast as an example, and UM,

605
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 1: we're trying to use it to create a bigger discussion

606
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 1: that we all are learning from, um, including the listener

607
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 1: out there. And so if we're looking at all of

608
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,439
Speaker 1: us here going okay, this happened, This is a good

609
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: example that we can all that we've pretty much all

610
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: heard and we understand, Um, where is the through line?

611
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: Then you've talked about the through line, like where does cancel?

612
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: Like how do we even look at this? And people

613
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: are really enraged and they're angry and they're triggered, and

614
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: they feel like there there's there's stuff on our podcast.

615
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: It's justifying stuff that they are very much against, and

616
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: it's like, no, it's not at all, it's not at

617
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 1: all what was meant? So, like what stops that person

618
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: from going through the through line saying I'm just done

619
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: or saying I'm going to stick it out for a bit,

620
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: Like how do you help, like in a healthy with

621
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: healthy boundaries understand that for yourself? Mhm. Hopefully this kind

622
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: of discourse kind of traits the the upset and sense

623
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: of enragement that people are experiencing right now, you know,

624
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:00,919
Speaker 1: this kind of discourse and keep will get in touch

625
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 1: with their own humanity, you know, and their own um,

626
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 1: their own ability to to make mistakes and UM their

627
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: own flaws, you know, and that these kind of discussions

628
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: make someone go like, right, we all make mistakes, we

629
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 1: all show up in ways that we aren't proud of

630
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,720
Speaker 1: in moments, and if we shut each other down after

631
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: those things occur, we never get to stay connected, we

632
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: never get to learn, we never get to stay whole, really,

633
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: and so we hope that it just penetrates people's sense

634
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: of humanity, you know. That's really the through line to me.

635
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:42,720
Speaker 1: And look, I I support the idea of people advocating

636
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: for victims of domestic violence. It's a good idea to

637
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: make sure that victims of domestic violence don't feel shamed

638
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 1: or don't feel exploited. That's that's a good idea, and

639
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: I would stand alongside someone who is advocating for that.

640
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: And so I think your listeners that that were were

641
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 1: sending that message along can feel UM supported, were justified.

642
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: I think the nuance we're trying to demonstrate here is

643
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: that you guys stand with that idea too, that idea too,

644
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: that the kind of dialogue that you had UM might

645
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: not have fully demonstrated that, and for that you are

646
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: sorry and want to do better. UM, but that everyone

647
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: can stand together and in the the idea that we

648
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: want victims to heal and to feel supported, and we

649
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,919
Speaker 1: want perpetrators to be health responsible. And so I think

650
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:37,919
Speaker 1: that people are able to take kind of a deep

651
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,439
Speaker 1: breath and allow those truths to sink in that those

652
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: were the messages that you guys stood behind UM to

653
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: begin with. As well. We don't have to be so divisive,

654
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: because this is why often divisiveness happens, is that people

655
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: aren't willing to fully listen, you know. So I guess

656
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: the through line is humanity and listening. And and some

657
00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: people listening UM might find that and some people UM

658
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: might not. And and that's okay, because this is messy,

659
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 1: This is emotional and messy, and I think we have

660
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: to be okay with with all of this being imperfect

661
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: because it's a hard situation and and a lot of

662
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: people's UM emotional reaction reactions are super justified in the

663
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: sense that they're genuine, you know, feelings, and they're to

664
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: do the right thing. I'm just like you guys are.

665
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: So we may also have to just be okay with

666
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 1: with everyone living with a degree of upset around this

667
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: because this is a hard topic. Dr Goldcher, I really

668
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:37,720
Speaker 1: appreciate you, UM, thank you for for doing this with us. UM.

669
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: It's been really good for me. I I hope it's

670
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,959
Speaker 1: good for you know a few people out there listening. UM,

671
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: thanks for sharing your wisdom and your insight, and thank

672
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: you for willing, you know, kind of being willing to

673
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,919
Speaker 1: sit with us through something that's difficult and then also

674
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: educating all of us on how we can be better. Uh.

675
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 1: Dr Goldcher, Uh, before you leave, if anybody's out there listening,

676
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: who is in the midst of deep trauma, Uh, they

677
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,720
Speaker 1: haven't found an outlet to speak about it. What advice

678
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: would you give to anybody for ways to get help,

679
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: resources to get help, et cetera. Yeah, Well, it's so

680
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: important to just begin talking to someone. And if that's

681
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 1: just a trusted other, a friend or a partner or

682
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 1: a family member, it's critical to start getting your story out.

683
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 1: And if you're finding that you have invasive symptoms, whether

684
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: that's depression and anxiety, women in thoughts, etcetera, that you

685
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: reach out to a professional and UM you can google

686
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: in your local areas looking you're a psychologist that specialize

687
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 1: in domestic violence and UM during quarantine COVID. Lots of

688
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 1: folks are offering virtual sessions and so there's resources available immediately.

689
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 1: So I would just encourage to start talking first with

690
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 1: trusted others and then with a professional additional help is needed.

691
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here. It means a

692
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 1: lot of cranky. I'm glad I could be that our

693
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 1: next guest is somebody who has become a friend of mine. Um,

694
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: I've gotten to know through a couple of different instances.

695
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: Alice was a huge supporter of The Bachelive on stage, Alise,

696
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: welcome to the Almost Famous podcast. Thank you and thanks

697
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: for having me. Thank you. I want to give a

698
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 1: little bit of a background while you're here. UM, from

699
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: my perspective, so we've already broached on the things that

700
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: I said that came off poorly and that triggered some

701
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: and that angered many, and UH, through all of this,

702
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: you were actually the first time I even knew this,

703
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 1: Like when you texted me, it was the first time

704
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 1: I even knew something was happening. I was with my

705
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: parents and UM, I got your text, and your text

706
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: just laid out to me that hey, you had listened

707
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: to the podcast, that there was some things said that

708
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: you felt, uh, we're not right and you wanted to

709
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: get clarity on them. Uh. You know that's been what

710
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: two days now, um, since you texted me, and you've

711
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: been a consistent voice to me through that. You um

712
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 1: did not only uh bring it to light in my

713
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 1: life and to tell me how I misspoke and what

714
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 1: I said that was triggering, but you then also and

715
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: have encouraged me and help guide me through this and

716
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 1: it will. It's weird how life happens and how there's

717
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: unexpected people that kind of step in at moments that

718
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 1: you don't expect it and when you need it, and

719
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: and speak truth into you. That isn't just you know,

720
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: saying things that are nice to help you feel better,

721
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: but you actually like speaking constructive criticism into you so

722
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: that you can be better. And you've done that for me.

723
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 1: So it was only right that we brought you on

724
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: because you do come from a place uh that can

725
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: speak to this, and you've spoken to me, and so

726
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 1: I just want to open up the floor to you

727
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: to talk about why you're here and why this mattered

728
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 1: to you so much. Yeah, it was a friend that

729
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 1: sent me your end. Thanks for all those kind words,

730
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: but um, it was a friend that sent me the clip,

731
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: and I'll be honest, I I didn't listen to the

732
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: whole episode, but I listened to what we're talking about today,

733
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: and immediately I knew why she had sent me the clip.

734
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: And I know you guys have talked about this earlier

735
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: in this podcast, but UM, I felt that when you

736
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 1: are quote unquote a public figure, right, people on social

737
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 1: media are quick to um jump and want to make

738
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: commentary and speculate on people's intentions behind their words. And

739
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: I think from our brief interactions together, I had a

740
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: very good sense of that you don't do things with

741
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,439
Speaker 1: intention to hurt people. And I wanted to go into

742
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 1: the conversation with you initially privately, UM, knowing what I

743
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: know of you, and that your attentions in having that

744
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 1: conversation and wanting to show support for casts but also

745
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: um empathy for other humans that are involved got massively. Ah,

746
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: you missed the mark, and I told you that in

747
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 1: our conversation. And I think for me, this is not

748
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,280
Speaker 1: something that I ever thought I would talk about publicly

749
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 1: because it is so personal and there's very mixed messages.

750
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: But I felt like by me reaching out to you

751
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: and sharing a little bit of my back story and

752
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:39,240
Speaker 1: being a victim of domestic partner abuse, UM, and having

753
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: to go through some of these really difficult choices that

754
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 1: um that you guys were talking about having a perspective

755
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: from the other end. UM, maybe I could said, shed

756
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: some light, but from a place of hopefully love and

757
00:43:54,560 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 1: compassion and not just anger over what was said. Well,

758
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 1: you've done that, UM, And I mean I I can't

759
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,959
Speaker 1: tell you how much I do appreciate it, UM, because

760
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 1: I do. I think it's it's probably helpful. And we

761
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: haven't dove into this yet, but you know the words

762
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: that I said, UM, that love makes you do crazy things?

763
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:26,399
Speaker 1: What about that? And triggered you? What about that? Frustrated you? Um?

764
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 1: I think there's two parts of it one it really UM.

765
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 1: Unfortunately have this narrative through even just movies, But just

766
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: are our idea of what love should look like based

767
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: on the representations we have around us, and sometimes those

768
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: representations really aren't a healthy display of love. We've all

769
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: gone through heartbreak and navigated it poorly. Right, You've sent

770
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: you have one too many cocktails and sent a text

771
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: that you regret like we can all agree that it's

772
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 1: not that was not an act of love when you

773
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: sent that texts. That's acting out of ego and her.

774
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: But there's a massive distinction between a regrettable text or

775
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 1: a comment set in an argument and intentionally and purposefully

776
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 1: causing someone physical, emotional, or psychological harm. There those two

777
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: can't go hand in hand because love and then I

778
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: know you talk a lot about your faith, and if

779
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 1: we go back to like the good old Corinthians passage

780
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 1: that we all talk about of what is love? But

781
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 1: I was, I was looking at that last night, there

782
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 1: is never a time in there that it excuses behavior

783
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: that is not beneficial to others. Because at the root

784
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: of it, we have to stop talking about and and

785
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: in a way or at least verbally making it sound

786
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 1: like we're excusing poor behavior as passion, as intimacy, and

787
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: nobody understands our relationship but us. These are all a

788
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 1: narrative that abusers use to justify their actions, so that

789
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: when we use the same narratives that the victim has

790
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: heard over and over, you think they must be right.

791
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 1: He is right, he just loves me. We're passionate, we

792
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: fight hard, we love harder. That's not love. Yeah, And

793
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: so um, that part of it affected me. But also

794
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 1: I want I want to make it clear too that

795
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: I can understand wanting to have empathy for just a

796
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:30,919
Speaker 1: human person, whoever that is, and that it doesn't coincide

797
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: with making excuses for inexcusable behavior. But you would hope,

798
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 1: especially for me, and I'm happy to share some of

799
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: the backstory that that there is some sort of intervention

800
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 1: with mental health or whatever the case may be, that

801
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 1: they break those cycles of abuse. Because the person that

802
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: did to me did to someone earlier and maybe if

803
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: they've had that help, um, that wouldn't have happened to me,

804
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: And unfortunately it happened to the girl after me. And

805
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,280
Speaker 1: so I want to encourage that people that are really

806
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: struggling with whether they had prior abuse in their lives

807
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 1: and it's manifesting and now their romantic relationship, that they

808
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,959
Speaker 1: should and absolutely should get help. But when we say

809
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 1: things that make the narrative of the abuser something that

810
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 1: is so commonplace for the victim, it really makes you

811
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 1: second guess, um, your own intuition of what is right

812
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 1: or wrong in a relationship. I think that's one of

813
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 1: the biggest things I've learned. And you highlight it to

814
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 1: me was that that those words I used, that we're irresponsible,

815
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: they give an excuse for why things are happening, and

816
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: not only did it justify it, but it excused it,

817
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 1: and it did make it commonplace. And for me, that's

818
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: a takeaway from this that honestly I didn't understand until you.

819
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,760
Speaker 1: I like it to me, but now as you explain

820
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: it and have explained it to me, it is definitely hurtful.

821
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: When I said that it's hurtful, I can see where

822
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 1: somebody would listen to that who is in the midst

823
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: or who has been a victim, and go, Ben is

824
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: excusing actions that have devastated me and hurt my life. Yeah,

825
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: and you know, and that's why I wanted to talk

826
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 1: to you initially about privately, because I know your heart,

827
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 1: I think, and I know that that was not the

828
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: intention behind your words, but I think opening up if

829
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:43,399
Speaker 1: anything positive is to come from what has I'm sure

830
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: for you've been a really really dark time. Um of

831
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: hearing these comments and accusations about your intention. Bond behind

832
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 1: those words is that it's opening up a dialogue for

833
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: someone to give not you, not only you, information, but

834
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 1: other people that the we have to change the narrative

835
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 1: around what domestic abuse even looks like. Because I'm going

836
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: to be honest, the if you look into like statistics,

837
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 1: and I shared some of these with Ben, and I'm

838
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: sure earlier you guys mentioned this when you were talking

839
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,879
Speaker 1: about a therapist, But um, I feel like we put

840
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: things on this spectrum of and I've even seen this

841
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,879
Speaker 1: in comments about recent events. If they're not hit, if

842
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: they're not sexually abused, it almost goes on this spectrum

843
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,800
Speaker 1: of how bad is it really? And when you start

844
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 1: going through statistics, and I did after our conversation Ben,

845
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 1: and I'm sitting there checking off going down of things

846
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 1: of how it impacts people's lives to be harassed, to

847
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: be stocked. It is psychological warfare. And that is the

848
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 1: best way I can put it. And I'm not discrediting

849
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,879
Speaker 1: the severity of what other people go through as far

850
00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: as actual physical abuse or otherwise, but all levels of

851
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:05,400
Speaker 1: abuse have long term effects on the person that was victimized.

852
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 1: And and so yes, words and and things that make

853
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: it seem okay if just taken from faith value of

854
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 1: what those words are really discredit the actual work that

855
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: myself and others have to do to just feel like

856
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: themselves again. And I can't speak for everyone obviously, but um,

857
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: it wasn't so much that through my experience I lost

858
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 1: trust in other people or even romantic relationships, but I

859
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 1: lost trust in myself of what I was allowing in

860
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 1: my life the wise, all these things that go through

861
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:45,240
Speaker 1: your head when constantly you are just scared at every turn,

862
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: and to not trust yourself is something that takes years

863
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 1: to overcome. And so I don't want to minimalize abuse

864
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 1: as category A is bad, category B is worse, and

865
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 1: and C is the absolute worst, because all off it

866
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 1: has just unbelievable long term effects on the person that

867
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 1: went through it. It might be helpful here how do

868
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: you define abuse? This is certainly not going to be

869
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 1: a therapist way of defining it, But for myself, it

870
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,280
Speaker 1: where I could draw the line was would I accept

871
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: this if my best friend was telling me this was

872
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 1: happening to her. M hmm At some point, Yeah, people

873
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: are going to go through you know, we all make

874
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 1: mistakes and relationships, We all do and say things that

875
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: are regrettable. But when you are in a position where

876
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: you're losing work, you're forced to move, you are isolated,

877
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 1: and I really want to hone in on that isolation thing,

878
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 1: because that is usually how this starts. No matter what

879
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 1: type of abuse, it is the easiest way to control

880
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: and manipulate someone is to isolate them as much as

881
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 1: possible from friends and family that care about them that

882
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 1: would point out that this is not okay. So if

883
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 1: I was seeing this in a friend and her relationship

884
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: or his relationship, at what point would I step in

885
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 1: and say something? And if I would do that for them,

886
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 1: why aren't I doing it for myself? So I define

887
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: abuse as behavior that I wouldn't tolerate for the people

888
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: that I love the most, because a lot of times

889
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:27,320
Speaker 1: we were very quick to jump to action for people

890
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 1: we love and not as quick to jump to protect

891
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 1: ourselves else when you're going through this, was there a

892
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:38,359
Speaker 1: friend of yours that really excelled in taking care of you?

893
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 1: And can you explain how they were able to communicate

894
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: with you in such an effective way? I am very,

895
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 1: very lucky that I have an incredible family and my

896
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: dad is Can I say he's a no bullshitter? He

897
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: tells things like it is, But when um, we're living

898
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 1: states apart, it's not always easy to see what's going on.

899
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 1: And at the time I was not really close to

900
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 1: many people, and like I said, isolation becomes a huge

901
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: part of it. I remember the people that introduced me

902
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 1: to this guy. I wasn't even allowed to be in

903
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 1: their wedding because he had a problem with it. I mean,

904
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,399
Speaker 1: this is the extent that people go to make sure

905
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 1: that you're in a bubble all to yourself or two

906
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: the abuse yourself. Really, UM did I have friends that

907
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 1: supported me, absolutely, But during it, I'll be honest, I

908
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 1: was hiding a lot of what was going on out

909
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 1: of fear of criticism, out of shame that wasn't mine

910
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 1: to hold. But that is something I think a lot

911
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 1: of people experience. UM it's embarrassing. You don't want to

912
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,359
Speaker 1: admit to how bad things really got. We all want

913
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 1: to have the happily ever after and when it goes

914
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 1: on a path that is so opposite of that. UM,

915
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 1: it's really hard to open up to people. But after

916
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 1: I came forward, and I'll be honest, I was forced

917
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 1: to come forward. It was not a decision I made

918
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 1: on my own. UM. The state press charges and after

919
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:13,800
Speaker 1: a particularly bad incident and then we things escalated from there,

920
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 1: but after I came forward the amount of support I had,

921
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 1: whether it was from family even from a long distance,

922
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 1: or friends just having a yeah, an unbiased of course

923
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: they support you. But if you have a friend going

924
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: through this, don't go into like the rhetoric of like

925
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: your favorite self help guru, because it's a lot deeper

926
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 1: than you know. Think positive and you'll get through this. UM,

927
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,560
Speaker 1: you have to understand that by the time someone opens up,

928
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 1: they've more than likely been holding onto this pain and

929
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 1: the shame that goes along with that for longer than

930
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 1: you have ever recognized. Because you become so good at

931
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: being a chameleon too, keeping that person happy so that

932
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 1: the abuse doesn't contin in you, but also to not

933
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 1: show anyone else was going on out of fear of

934
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 1: retaliation if you do UH. At least, I want to

935
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 1: give you the ability to share your story as much

936
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: as you're comfortable with. UM. But just before we do,

937
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: you did share some statistics with me. I don't know

938
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 1: if they're in front of you right now. UM, I

939
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 1: have a couple of them, I know I sent a

940
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 1: few a few in in our conversation, but yeah, do

941
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 1: you mind sharing those? And then whatever amount of your

942
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 1: story you're comfortable sharing. UH, if you'd like to do that,

943
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: I think it would be appreciated. UM. And I can

944
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: certainly give you the link to where I found these,

945
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,720
Speaker 1: but it was from a two thousand and eleven studies,

946
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,399
Speaker 1: So I can't even imagine how this is escalated with

947
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:52,399
Speaker 1: technology advancing. UM. But one in seven people and this

948
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 1: is this is only about UM domestic abuse that was

949
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 1: not escalated to violent an axe or homicide. One in

950
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:10,360
Speaker 1: seven lost work, one and eight were forced or forcibly

951
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:15,319
Speaker 1: moved out out of fear of harassment. Victims report their

952
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 1: personality was changed as a result. And the one that

953
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 1: really struck me because it's not a fun thing to

954
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 1: talk about, but UM that within the first year after

955
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:33,359
Speaker 1: legality and all of this has settled, one in four

956
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 1: people that have been harassed and or stock will contemplate suicide.

957
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 1: When you go into the statistics of UM what it

958
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 1: looks like for issues of harassment and stocking to escalate. UM,

959
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: I think the numbers would floor you. But these are

960
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:53,920
Speaker 1: just things that because thankfully that that wasn't my situation.

961
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:59,319
Speaker 1: I was checking off the list and UM, I don't

962
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 1: have this one written down, but if I remember correctly. UM.

963
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 1: One in one in three people that have been harassed

964
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 1: and or stocked UM will will suffer from some sort

965
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 1: of post traumatic stress going forward, which takes a lot

966
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:21,439
Speaker 1: of therapy and a lot of care to navigate and

967
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: and get back to the healthiest version of you possible.

968
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 1: These these things don't end with a restraining order. Yeah.

969
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 1: So that's a UM, that's tough. There's not a response

970
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 1: to that. I don't know what to say other than

971
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for sharing those, thanks for doing

972
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 1: the research, and thanks for sharing those with me. UM.

973
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: They do give a picture, a better idea of just

974
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 1: how tough it is. And like you said, one thing

975
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 1: that sticks with me in this and it happens all

976
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 1: the time. But it's like we see a conclusion right

977
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: with the restraining order. Yeah, Yet the it doesn't stop

978
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:08,920
Speaker 1: there for the human that's experienced like it's not like that,

979
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 1: It's not like that brings healing. UM. So I want

980
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 1: to talk about healing with you. But before we do,

981
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 1: let's talk. Let's let's talk as much as you want

982
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 1: about your story, and then I would love to lean

983
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 1: that into anybody that's experiencing this as well to how

984
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 1: you've gone about trying to heal and what has you

985
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 1: found helpful in that? Absolutely? Um this happened. Jeez. I'm

986
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 1: thirty three and we'll live in all of y'all, but

987
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: I'm right behind you. Um I. This was a number

988
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 1: of years ago, but I remember plane as day. It

989
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 1: is one of the most vivid memories. I was having

990
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 1: a New Year's Eve party and a guy walked in

991
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 1: and it immediately was like, who is that? And it

992
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 1: was very clear to see that he could be what

993
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 1: you would probably stereotype as like the bad boy if

994
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 1: this was just just horribly written romantic comedy. And I

995
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 1: remember talking that night and there was just an energy

996
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 1: about him that I think now I would recognize as

997
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 1: run away. But at the time it was so captivating

998
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:22,720
Speaker 1: because I'm someone that loves to figure people out and

999
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 1: the why behind who they are, and I could not

1000
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:31,560
Speaker 1: read his energy and that captivated me. Um. I remember

1001
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 1: our first date was one that in hindsight, and this

1002
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 1: is gonna sound so silly, like you almost want to say, like, Hi,

1003
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 1: where how many red flags do you need before you know,

1004
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 1: before you get the hint. But the red flags went

1005
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 1: off immediately that this was going to be something pitole

1006
00:59:54,240 --> 01:00:00,240
Speaker 1: in my life. Unfortunately, I mistook that coming from a place. Um.

1007
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 1: I know you guys obviously watched the show, so you

1008
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 1: know that I talked a little bit about my sister's passing.

1009
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 1: This was all concurrent to when she was finding out

1010
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 1: she was pregnant and sick, so I was already in

1011
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:18,360
Speaker 1: a very fragile position, and I think by opening up

1012
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 1: that side of what was going on in my life,

1013
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 1: it almost made it so much easier for him to

1014
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:28,400
Speaker 1: step in and me to excuse some of the behaviors

1015
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 1: that I saw. Um our relationship could be summed up

1016
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 1: very quickly and that it was all a lie. Things

1017
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 1: were fabricated from the beginning. But it was so intense.

1018
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:43,160
Speaker 1: We would fight, we would I hate to sit but

1019
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:45,920
Speaker 1: have the best sex ever and make up and it

1020
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 1: was just this roller coaster of emotions and it was

1021
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 1: so addicting at the time to have these I don't

1022
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 1: want to say I was addicted to drama, but I think,

1023
01:00:55,640 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 1: if I'm being honest, I was heightened emotion um because

1024
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 1: it felt like something new that I had never experienced.

1025
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 1: And like I said, we see it in movies and stuff.

1026
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 1: That's like I'll do anything for you, but when it

1027
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 1: feels like that from the first date, that's probably not

1028
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:18,440
Speaker 1: a healthy sign um. And it was not until and

1029
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for this moment of clarity where I

1030
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 1: ended the relationship. It moved quickly. We got engaged four

1031
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:30,880
Speaker 1: months later from the day we met. Four months later,

1032
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 1: I had a ring on my finger, and when my

1033
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:38,160
Speaker 1: sister was diagnosed, I remember we were all waiting by

1034
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 1: the phone, and she obviously had her husband, and my

1035
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 1: dad was consoling my mom, and I was waiting there alone,

1036
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 1: and I thought, if something ever happens to me, I

1037
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 1: would never have his support. It would always be about

1038
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 1: him in some way. I remember he went out that

1039
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:01,439
Speaker 1: night because he couldn't handle the emotional It's just too

1040
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 1: emotional for him to be there. And I made excuse

1041
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 1: after excuse, And then that moment really triggered my desire

1042
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 1: to end the relationship because I knew, at the core

1043
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 1: of a healthy relationship it should be a little bit boring.

1044
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 1: You know without question that that person is there for you.

1045
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:23,480
Speaker 1: You don't have to question these things that I was

1046
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 1: questioning every single day. And it was not until after

1047
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 1: I ended the relationship that um things that maybe felt

1048
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 1: like they were crossing the line escalated almost overnight. And

1049
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:39,320
Speaker 1: I want to be careful with my words because why

1050
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:42,440
Speaker 1: I'm sharing my story. I don't want it to scare

1051
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 1: someone out of like coming forward or or walking away

1052
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 1: from an abusive situation, because you have the right to

1053
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 1: do that, and you should do that. UM. But in

1054
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 1: my particular instance, when he lost control of me, he

1055
01:02:57,160 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 1: completely lost control over that phil that he had tried

1056
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 1: so hard to keep up, and it escalated in ways

1057
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:10,120
Speaker 1: that now I feel so disconnected to that it almost

1058
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 1: doesn't seem real. Um. There was burner phones, there was

1059
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 1: pictures of me at different places. UM. I lost my

1060
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 1: job because my coworkers started to feel unsafe because he

1061
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 1: was um taking pictures of me while I was at work,

1062
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 1: sending them to me, but not from him. Right, it's

1063
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:34,120
Speaker 1: from these crazy numbers that I didn't know. UM. One

1064
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 1: night in particular where the state got involved, he came

1065
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:40,680
Speaker 1: into my home and out of fear, I thought, take

1066
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 1: anything you want, but I'm getting the hell out. So

1067
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 1: you go in and I'm getting out. UM. And he

1068
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 1: did take items of mine, including and this isn't a

1069
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 1: fun thing to admit, but a laptop that he had

1070
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:56,520
Speaker 1: purchased for me as a gift that had a picture

1071
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:59,880
Speaker 1: that I mean, by Instagram standards, probably wasn't that embarrassing,

1072
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 1: but when it's sent to my father posted as his

1073
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:09,120
Speaker 1: Facebook photo profile photo, UM that was supposed to be

1074
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:13,000
Speaker 1: something so intimate between us, UM and used in a

1075
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 1: way to absolutely shame and embarrass me. And UM had

1076
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 1: a lot of things taken and used as leverage. If

1077
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 1: you talk to me, if you see me, you can

1078
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 1: have these back. UM. That is where UH legal got involved.

1079
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:32,160
Speaker 1: And there's times where I'll be honest, there was physical

1080
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 1: things that happened that that should never have happened. But

1081
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:38,600
Speaker 1: I'm very thankful it never got to a place of

1082
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 1: UM where I needed treatment of any sort for any

1083
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 1: like physical injury. But UM, it it's hard to just

1084
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:53,600
Speaker 1: sum up how crazy it was. But I remember Thanksgiving night,

1085
01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:56,720
Speaker 1: my my aunt calling me and saying, I'm so sorry,

1086
01:04:56,720 --> 01:04:59,480
Speaker 1: but we don't feel safe, you know, when they little

1087
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 1: kids around. We don't feel safe of having you come

1088
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:04,960
Speaker 1: to Thanksgiving because we don't know if he's tracking you,

1089
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:09,120
Speaker 1: if he comes here, what's going to happen. And they

1090
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:11,560
Speaker 1: had to call the police that night because he showed

1091
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:14,960
Speaker 1: up UM and was lighting. I don't know what you

1092
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:16,480
Speaker 1: call them, but if you get in a car accent,

1093
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:19,360
Speaker 1: they're like flare things in your car to like help

1094
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:22,880
Speaker 1: with traffic, UM and throwing those at their windows on

1095
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:27,360
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving night, assuming that I was there. These aren't in

1096
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:31,640
Speaker 1: any way loving actions to make me lose a career.

1097
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:34,280
Speaker 1: I had to then move out of the home I

1098
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 1: was living in because my roommates no longer felt safe

1099
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 1: and rightfully so UM. I just want to say, like,

1100
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:46,920
Speaker 1: there's nothing loving about these type of actions, but it

1101
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:51,440
Speaker 1: is very almost easy when you're in this situation to

1102
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 1: make excuses because your emotions are still involved. I still

1103
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,760
Speaker 1: cared about him. I still also carried a lot of

1104
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:02,360
Speaker 1: um el like, oh, you know, when you're in that

1105
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 1: deep you go, God, maybe I did do something wrong

1106
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:07,040
Speaker 1: and deserved this. That was the thing in my head

1107
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 1: all the time. Maybe I deserved this. Um. Unfortunately, UM,

1108
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:15,360
Speaker 1: as you went to the legal process, I found out

1109
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:18,400
Speaker 1: that this was not the first time he had done this. UM.

1110
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly the extent. I could only read

1111
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 1: the court finalines of what he had done to someone

1112
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:26,720
Speaker 1: in the past. UM, and that is what prompted me

1113
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 1: to continue because I will tell you I did not

1114
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:31,880
Speaker 1: want to show up that day in court to testify

1115
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 1: against him. It was terrifying. I don't want to put

1116
01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:38,479
Speaker 1: down the legal system, but I didn't feel I enough

1117
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:41,920
Speaker 1: measures were taken to make sure that even my arrival

1118
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:44,880
Speaker 1: there was safe. UM, and I hope that that has

1119
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 1: changed in the years since. UM. It was the scariest

1120
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 1: by far day of my life sitting in court. UM.

1121
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 1: But I knew that if I wasn't going to take

1122
01:06:57,120 --> 01:07:00,280
Speaker 1: responsibility for what was happening to me, that there's all so,

1123
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:04,960
Speaker 1: in my opinion, responsibility to what could potentially happen to

1124
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:07,400
Speaker 1: the next person. Because it was very clear that his

1125
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: patterns were escalating. And now I'll take a big deep

1126
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:14,800
Speaker 1: break because it was a lot. Well, I'm just I'm

1127
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:18,440
Speaker 1: so I'm so thankful that you felt comfortable sharing that, UM,

1128
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:23,720
Speaker 1: and I'm just incredibly sorry for everything that you went through. UM.

1129
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:26,680
Speaker 1: If there was some you talked about their being red

1130
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:30,160
Speaker 1: flags very early on, would you feel comfortable sharing what

1131
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:32,920
Speaker 1: some of those are just so that other girls listening

1132
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:35,959
Speaker 1: can look out for them in their own relationships or

1133
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:38,960
Speaker 1: in their friends relationships. And I kind of want to

1134
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:41,560
Speaker 1: respond to that that I want to make sure that

1135
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:43,840
Speaker 1: this isn't it's not just females that go through this,

1136
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 1: it's it's both um and unfortunately, I think there's even

1137
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:51,400
Speaker 1: more critique when a criticism when a man comes forward

1138
01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:55,520
Speaker 1: and says something because of the unfortunate stereotypes we have

1139
01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 1: about masculinity. No, thank you for calling me out on that,

1140
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 1: But I I think for me, some of the major

1141
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:06,320
Speaker 1: red flags that I can look back in hindsight is

1142
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:11,000
Speaker 1: one the constant roller coaster. And it felt like we

1143
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:15,040
Speaker 1: started on a little kittie roller coaster to one that

1144
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:17,559
Speaker 1: you know is doing loop to loops and you're hanging

1145
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:19,960
Speaker 1: upside down. And I know that seems like kind of

1146
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:24,040
Speaker 1: a funny analogy, but it just kept escalating, and the

1147
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:26,400
Speaker 1: things that I would have to excuse is, oh, this

1148
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 1: was just an argument kept becoming harder to excuse. UM intense,

1149
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 1: intense jealousy that isn't coming from a place of that

1150
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:40,519
Speaker 1: where it's warranted. I think a little jealousy sometimes can

1151
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:42,800
Speaker 1: even be healthy and a little fun in a relationship.

1152
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:46,080
Speaker 1: If I'm dating someone and the girls looking at him,

1153
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 1: good for me, I feel you. I'm like, okay, you

1154
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:54,000
Speaker 1: think he's cut good exactly. There's a massive difference between

1155
01:08:54,040 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 1: that and having, UM, just a pleasant conversation trying to

1156
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:01,679
Speaker 1: be kind to a member of the deposite sex, and

1157
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:06,479
Speaker 1: immediately seeing a switch where any loving affection has gone

1158
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:08,679
Speaker 1: out the window and now you are going to be

1159
01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:15,360
Speaker 1: publicly ridiculed and shamed. Because control is just the major

1160
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:19,080
Speaker 1: factor when it comes to harassment, stalking, and abuse, and

1161
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:22,639
Speaker 1: if there's any semblance that they are losing control, things

1162
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:29,160
Speaker 1: escalate very quickly. And jealousy for me, is a major

1163
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 1: red flag in a relationship like actually and I talked about,

1164
01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:35,280
Speaker 1: there's a difference between healthy amounts of just normal human

1165
01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:42,800
Speaker 1: jealousy and jealousy that becomes vindictive, becomes a reason in

1166
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:46,040
Speaker 1: their eyes to publicly shame you for things that you

1167
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:50,639
Speaker 1: you truly didn't do. Um. I pride myself on being very,

1168
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:53,360
Speaker 1: very loyal, so cheating has never been an issue for me.

1169
01:09:53,479 --> 01:09:57,760
Speaker 1: Yet to be standing at a dinner party and I

1170
01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:00,240
Speaker 1: think I made reference. I mean, this is how really

1171
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:02,760
Speaker 1: it was. Um. There was a guy that was from

1172
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:05,599
Speaker 1: Russia there, and I said, oh, I'm from a town

1173
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 1: in Alaska and we have a pretty large Russian population,

1174
01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:13,240
Speaker 1: and my my town that I'm from mean soldier and Russian.

1175
01:10:14,240 --> 01:10:16,640
Speaker 1: That is not a flirtatious comment. In fact, it's a

1176
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 1: pretty awkward, weird dinner party conversation where you're just trying

1177
01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:25,400
Speaker 1: to get to know someone. But that briefest of interaction

1178
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:28,600
Speaker 1: where the attention wasn't on him, became a reason for

1179
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:31,120
Speaker 1: him to call me a whore, to call me a

1180
01:10:31,160 --> 01:10:33,360
Speaker 1: slut in front of people that I cared about and

1181
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:38,200
Speaker 1: work colleagues, and to create a scene where I was

1182
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:42,439
Speaker 1: in the wrong and people would because of how he

1183
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:46,080
Speaker 1: portrayed it, would go, oh, I'm so sorry she did

1184
01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:48,960
Speaker 1: that to you. Gosh, you're right, that's terrible, And when

1185
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:52,599
Speaker 1: you hear other people saying that, you go, man, maybe

1186
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:55,400
Speaker 1: I really did something wrong. I don't think a Russian

1187
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:58,640
Speaker 1: to English translation is, you know, going to be on

1188
01:10:58,720 --> 01:11:01,040
Speaker 1: top of someone's tinder foul is a way to make

1189
01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:06,120
Speaker 1: a move. But when you're in those scenarios, it's um

1190
01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:09,880
Speaker 1: it's the littlest things that can set them off. One

1191
01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:15,439
Speaker 1: huge one was he would get angry at me for

1192
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:19,240
Speaker 1: I was his like escape. He could take everything out

1193
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 1: on me that had absolutely nothing to do with me.

1194
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:24,120
Speaker 1: If he got a flat tire, I'd be left on

1195
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:29,080
Speaker 1: a very busy city interstate because somehow it was my

1196
01:11:29,160 --> 01:11:31,479
Speaker 1: fault that he got a flat tire with driving his car.

1197
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 1: These those are completely irrational thoughts. No one can cause

1198
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:38,960
Speaker 1: you to get a flat tire, it's the nail on

1199
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 1: the road that causes it. But when you are constantly

1200
01:11:43,200 --> 01:11:45,600
Speaker 1: put in a position where you are the source of

1201
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:51,400
Speaker 1: their problems. UM, I hope people stop believing it a

1202
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:55,479
Speaker 1: lot quicker than I did. But you believe somehow, gosh,

1203
01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:58,679
Speaker 1: I did do this, And I think now people call

1204
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:04,120
Speaker 1: that geah slighting of where you question your own thought

1205
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:08,120
Speaker 1: process or even just the reality of the situation around

1206
01:12:08,160 --> 01:12:12,960
Speaker 1: you because someone has absolutely convinced you and you've lost

1207
01:12:13,040 --> 01:12:15,320
Speaker 1: so much trust in yourself and your own ability to

1208
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:19,639
Speaker 1: make healthy decisions that they must be correct and you

1209
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:24,000
Speaker 1: must be absolutely that ship crazy and everyone else knows

1210
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:27,760
Speaker 1: that you're that ship crazy, so they're right. And it

1211
01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:34,839
Speaker 1: just continued to escalate from from there. So then moving

1212
01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:43,120
Speaker 1: into the healing process, how, what steps or what does

1213
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:48,080
Speaker 1: somebody do coming off of this, still living within it,

1214
01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:52,000
Speaker 1: to heal, to recover, to start knowing truth about themselves again?

1215
01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:59,280
Speaker 1: I think, do everything I didn't do. Um, this is

1216
01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:02,519
Speaker 1: not something I dealt with for quite some time. Like

1217
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:07,000
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, I had a lot of new traumas

1218
01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:10,800
Speaker 1: going on with family matters that compounded at the time

1219
01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:14,760
Speaker 1: that quite frankly, that's where my emotional um space went to,

1220
01:13:15,040 --> 01:13:19,360
Speaker 1: and rightfully so. But there's so many resources that I

1221
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:23,000
Speaker 1: wish I knew about then that I know about now.

1222
01:13:23,360 --> 01:13:25,320
Speaker 1: UM One that I spoke to Ben about and that

1223
01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 1: I would speak to anybody about is the hotline dot org.

1224
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:33,120
Speaker 1: They have just that website alone, whether you call the

1225
01:13:33,240 --> 01:13:36,479
Speaker 1: number or just look at the website, the amount of

1226
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:39,880
Speaker 1: information and measures that they go to protect the safety

1227
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:43,519
Speaker 1: of even someone typing in hotline dot org. The first

1228
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:46,120
Speaker 1: thing it pops up is, if you feel like your

1229
01:13:46,160 --> 01:13:50,160
Speaker 1: phone could potentially be UM monitored, here's how to get

1230
01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:52,760
Speaker 1: to this website on your browsers safely so no one

1231
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,519
Speaker 1: can look it up. I had never seen things like

1232
01:13:55,600 --> 01:14:00,680
Speaker 1: that um but also providing not only legal support no

1233
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:05,200
Speaker 1: matter where they are, but therapy and advice and how

1234
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:08,320
Speaker 1: and creating a safety plan for how to get out

1235
01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:10,840
Speaker 1: of that relationship as safely as possible, whether you live

1236
01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:13,479
Speaker 1: with them, have kids, et cetera. I think that is

1237
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:16,759
Speaker 1: always something I'm going to recommend is the very first step,

1238
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:21,639
Speaker 1: and the second is do not be afraid to talk

1239
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:25,599
Speaker 1: to people. I have found that our hardest experiences in

1240
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:30,160
Speaker 1: life either make us more empathetic to others going through it,

1241
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:33,240
Speaker 1: or allow others an opportunity to help us get through it.

1242
01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:39,320
Speaker 1: And when you shut off those conversations that you're I

1243
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:40,960
Speaker 1: don't know about you, guys, but if I have something

1244
01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:44,000
Speaker 1: weighing all my heart, if I don't talk about it,

1245
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:46,280
Speaker 1: it's almost like the worst stomach ache. It's just sitting

1246
01:14:46,320 --> 01:14:49,240
Speaker 1: there and festering. And you don't need to do that

1247
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:53,280
Speaker 1: to yourself. There's so many people that you can reach

1248
01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:56,040
Speaker 1: out to, and if you're not in a position where

1249
01:14:56,080 --> 01:14:58,759
Speaker 1: friends and family might not be local to you, or

1250
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 1: or you don't feel comfort rule, there's complete strangers that

1251
01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:05,559
Speaker 1: have been through this that are willing to rally like

1252
01:15:05,720 --> 01:15:08,479
Speaker 1: hell for you to get out of there safely and

1253
01:15:08,720 --> 01:15:11,200
Speaker 1: that you can have the therapy that you will need.

1254
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:17,320
Speaker 1: There's no there's such a stigma about getting mental health help.

1255
01:15:17,479 --> 01:15:23,559
Speaker 1: But if you live in fear for X amount of

1256
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:27,720
Speaker 1: months or years, that doesn't just go away. It's going

1257
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:30,360
Speaker 1: to take that same amount of time, if not more,

1258
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:35,040
Speaker 1: two retrain yourself to not live in fear and to

1259
01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:38,960
Speaker 1: have a safe, unbiased person to talk to about it.

1260
01:15:40,080 --> 01:15:44,200
Speaker 1: So I think making sure that you are getting out safely, UM,

1261
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:47,200
Speaker 1: not making spontaneous decisions that could potentially put you in

1262
01:15:47,240 --> 01:15:51,519
Speaker 1: harm's way. Going to the hotline dot org. Allowing these

1263
01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:54,200
Speaker 1: people to rally for you and make sure that you

1264
01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:57,160
Speaker 1: and potential any children are are able to get out

1265
01:15:57,200 --> 01:16:00,519
Speaker 1: of there safely, and create a plan. Plan is a huge,

1266
01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:06,439
Speaker 1: a huge help, UM, because it's not everyone's reality where

1267
01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:07,960
Speaker 1: you can just wake up and say I'm getting the

1268
01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:10,559
Speaker 1: keys and I'm getting in the car and I'm going.

1269
01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:14,519
Speaker 1: That isn't always the safest bet depending on the type

1270
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:18,720
Speaker 1: of abuser that is in your life. So having a

1271
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:23,160
Speaker 1: plan and then making yourself and your mental health and

1272
01:16:23,200 --> 01:16:27,120
Speaker 1: recovery a priority through conversation with others, through the conversations

1273
01:16:27,160 --> 01:16:31,600
Speaker 1: with therapists, and to not be afraid, I mean this conversation,

1274
01:16:31,640 --> 01:16:35,800
Speaker 1: I can't tell you I was sweating bullets to have it, UM,

1275
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:39,800
Speaker 1: but to not be afraid of maybe the one or

1276
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:44,000
Speaker 1: two potential criticisms that can come from it, because you

1277
01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:50,639
Speaker 1: are so worthy of being heard and you're your words

1278
01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:58,320
Speaker 1: could help somebody else what a fantastic articulate advocate you are.

1279
01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:01,559
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm a rambler, so I don't know

1280
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:06,559
Speaker 1: how articulate I was, but oh, incredibly at least. I

1281
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:11,080
Speaker 1: I don't want to understate just how like how great

1282
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:15,799
Speaker 1: you've been in the last forty hours for others, including

1283
01:17:15,840 --> 01:17:19,960
Speaker 1: this moment, including me. This isn't about me, I know that,

1284
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:23,600
Speaker 1: but like in times of like not like feeling like

1285
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:25,960
Speaker 1: I'm spending not knowing how this is happening and not

1286
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:27,720
Speaker 1: knowing where to go with it and not knowing how

1287
01:17:27,760 --> 01:17:32,280
Speaker 1: to how to process it, You've been awesome and you're

1288
01:17:32,320 --> 01:17:34,040
Speaker 1: gonna make me cry now, And I got through that

1289
01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:41,000
Speaker 1: whole thing without crying. You know, we come on this

1290
01:17:41,040 --> 01:17:43,639
Speaker 1: thing and like it's not worth it's it's not worth

1291
01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:46,960
Speaker 1: any time or effort to do this and know that

1292
01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:49,360
Speaker 1: like other people are gonna experience pain because of the

1293
01:17:49,400 --> 01:17:51,680
Speaker 1: hour and a half that we take a week to

1294
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:56,280
Speaker 1: just like talk about a crazy show. And every once

1295
01:17:56,320 --> 01:17:58,960
Speaker 1: in a while, like it hits and it hits hard,

1296
01:17:59,120 --> 01:18:01,360
Speaker 1: and you realize that your words really do matter. And

1297
01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:06,439
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being in this with

1298
01:18:06,479 --> 01:18:11,559
Speaker 1: me and also encouraging me yet keeping me knowing what

1299
01:18:11,600 --> 01:18:15,800
Speaker 1: I did wrong, UM, and how hard it was for

1300
01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:18,120
Speaker 1: me to hear that, yet how helpful it's been, UM,

1301
01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:19,760
Speaker 1: And thank you for coming on. Like, I don't want

1302
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:21,680
Speaker 1: to underestimate just how much it took for you to

1303
01:18:21,680 --> 01:18:24,840
Speaker 1: even like show up today and to stalk talk to us,

1304
01:18:24,920 --> 01:18:27,439
Speaker 1: and to to sit in this and be here. And

1305
01:18:27,479 --> 01:18:31,080
Speaker 1: I guarantee you this, there's somebody outside of myself, even

1306
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:35,720
Speaker 1: that myself included, that will hear you talk today and

1307
01:18:35,760 --> 01:18:38,880
Speaker 1: their life will be changed forever for the better. And

1308
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:40,439
Speaker 1: like that is a weight that I want you to

1309
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:42,160
Speaker 1: know and I wanted you to carry, and I want

1310
01:18:42,200 --> 01:18:45,960
Speaker 1: you to realize because I can't imagine anything anything better

1311
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:47,760
Speaker 1: to spend our time doing that. And so at least,

1312
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:50,200
Speaker 1: thank you for coming on, Thank you for being here.

1313
01:18:50,920 --> 01:18:55,040
Speaker 1: This has been great. I appreciate you. At least your

1314
01:18:55,080 --> 01:18:59,040
Speaker 1: approach in this situation has been so admirable. You've been honest,

1315
01:18:59,360 --> 01:19:02,360
Speaker 1: be kind, You say, hey, guys, you messed up. You

1316
01:19:02,439 --> 01:19:06,120
Speaker 1: hurt me and others. Here's what you went wrong. And

1317
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:09,320
Speaker 1: I just really appreciate. I appreciate that. May add something

1318
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:14,160
Speaker 1: I didn't know that you said that, UM. I think

1319
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:17,680
Speaker 1: because both of you are public figures right. I just

1320
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:20,080
Speaker 1: went back. I took my white dress and went back

1321
01:19:20,080 --> 01:19:27,200
Speaker 1: to my life as normal. But we are. And I

1322
01:19:27,240 --> 01:19:29,080
Speaker 1: said this to Ben yesterday when I was a little

1323
01:19:29,080 --> 01:19:32,920
Speaker 1: bit concerned for maybe where his emotional space was, is

1324
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:36,479
Speaker 1: that I would just encourage people this kind of a

1325
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:42,360
Speaker 1: two point thing that first of all, um, be careful

1326
01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:51,320
Speaker 1: when you are critiquing others that you I'm treading carefully

1327
01:19:51,760 --> 01:19:56,080
Speaker 1: because Ben, what you said's not okay, but you didn't

1328
01:19:56,120 --> 01:19:59,760
Speaker 1: do it with negative intent and that was clear to

1329
01:19:59,800 --> 01:20:02,960
Speaker 1: me from the beginning. And just be a little slower

1330
01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:07,800
Speaker 1: people to jump know and be able to differentiate if

1331
01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:10,120
Speaker 1: you are speaking from a place of trauma, if you're

1332
01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:14,719
Speaker 1: speaking from a place of emotion, take a beat before

1333
01:20:14,880 --> 01:20:18,680
Speaker 1: having that conversation with with someone so that you can

1334
01:20:18,680 --> 01:20:20,920
Speaker 1: come to them from a place of love and with

1335
01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:24,360
Speaker 1: your ears open and not attacking them for something that

1336
01:20:24,400 --> 01:20:28,120
Speaker 1: they might not just understand yet. And that really extends

1337
01:20:28,439 --> 01:20:32,880
Speaker 1: to social media that people giving commentary. And I told Ben,

1338
01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:35,600
Speaker 1: I won't come on here and give commentary about the

1339
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:40,720
Speaker 1: topic because I don't think commentary on someone's trauma is

1340
01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:44,400
Speaker 1: any of our rights. That person can speak for themselves

1341
01:20:44,400 --> 01:20:47,439
Speaker 1: and them alone, because they're the only ones that know

1342
01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:51,759
Speaker 1: the depth of what's going on. And I've read comments

1343
01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:56,320
Speaker 1: online directed towards Ben, directed towards someone that I consider

1344
01:20:56,360 --> 01:20:58,720
Speaker 1: a friend from my time on the show, and it

1345
01:20:59,040 --> 01:21:02,280
Speaker 1: terrifies me, not only for that person's mental well being,

1346
01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:07,639
Speaker 1: but also for how paralyzing. If you can stop before

1347
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:10,639
Speaker 1: you comment and think is this helpful? Because my god,

1348
01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:14,040
Speaker 1: if my twenty year old self had read these comments

1349
01:21:14,080 --> 01:21:19,920
Speaker 1: that are directed towards someone who rightfully um made steps

1350
01:21:19,960 --> 01:21:24,080
Speaker 1: to feel safe, how paralyzing that would have been for

1351
01:21:24,240 --> 01:21:27,880
Speaker 1: me in seeking that same help. Seeing that amount of

1352
01:21:27,880 --> 01:21:33,960
Speaker 1: criticism and shame and speculation is not acceptable because you're

1353
01:21:33,960 --> 01:21:36,800
Speaker 1: not in the situation. These are characters that you see

1354
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:39,360
Speaker 1: on TV, and no we're not actors, but you see

1355
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:41,320
Speaker 1: such a small fraction of our lives that you do

1356
01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:44,759
Speaker 1: not get to pass judgment on what length someone needs

1357
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:47,720
Speaker 1: to go to feel safe, because we all have that

1358
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:51,800
Speaker 1: right and your comments, not you guys specifically, obviously, but

1359
01:21:52,280 --> 01:21:57,240
Speaker 1: people that are commenting these things. I'm just terrified for

1360
01:21:57,320 --> 01:22:01,360
Speaker 1: someone reading it. Like I said, my itself would never

1361
01:22:01,439 --> 01:22:03,880
Speaker 1: have sought help if I thought I would get a

1362
01:22:03,920 --> 01:22:07,760
Speaker 1: fraction of the criticism that I'm seeing online. It's disgusting.

1363
01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:14,000
Speaker 1: Well in there, Elise. Thank you. UM, if you don't mind,

1364
01:22:14,280 --> 01:22:18,560
Speaker 1: we have a tradition that we're going to keep too, um,

1365
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:21,839
Speaker 1: so follow our lead. This has been an almost famous podcast.

1366
01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:26,400
Speaker 1: It's a special podcast. Um, I've I don't know if

1367
01:22:26,400 --> 01:22:30,800
Speaker 1: I've enjoyed sitting in it. I've I'm glad I sat

1368
01:22:30,840 --> 01:22:35,000
Speaker 1: in it. I'll say that. Um. But with that, I've

1369
01:22:35,040 --> 01:22:38,479
Speaker 1: been been, I've been Ashley, and I've been a naughty

1370
01:22:38,520 --> 01:22:48,519
Speaker 1: Elise naughty. A thank you followed the Benn and Ashley

1371
01:22:48,560 --> 01:22:52,320
Speaker 1: I Almost Famous podcast on iHeart Radio or subscribe wherever

1372
01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:53,560
Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts.