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Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely

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Speaker 1: those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast,

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Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or their employees.

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Speaker 1: This podcast also contains subject matter which may not be

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Speaker 1: suitable for everyone listening to.

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Speaker 2: Discretion is advised. Radical is released every Tuesday and brought

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Speaker 2: to you absolutely free, but if you want to add

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Speaker 2: free listening and early access to next week's episode, subscribe

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Speaker 2: to tenderfoot Plus. For more information, check out tenderfootplus dot com.

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Speaker 2: Enjoy the episode.

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Speaker 3: Campsite Media, How far are you willing to go? Because

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Speaker 3: like most of the people definitely never talked to me,

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Speaker 3: they never talk to people that know me. So now

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Speaker 3: they have what they think is the truth and they

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Speaker 3: have run with that.

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Speaker 2: In November of twenty twenty one, Johnny Kaufman got a

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Speaker 2: call from a man in federal prison. Johnny is the

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Speaker 2: lead producer of this podcast, and the call came to

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Speaker 2: him months before he convinced me to help him do

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Speaker 2: more reporting, to host the podcast and make the story

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Speaker 2: of my own. Johnny had been filing open records requests

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Speaker 2: looking for problems with the Maam Jimial's prosecution and talking

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Speaker 2: to this man in prison. An interesting man, a man who,

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Speaker 2: over the course of his life, has gone by at

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Speaker 2: least three names, Otis Jackson, Silas Mohammad, and James Santos.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to call him Otis Jackson. On the phone,

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Speaker 2: Otis was serious, didn't really joke much, and he sounded

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Speaker 2: like a smart guy. He said violence was a part

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Speaker 2: of his childhood, and he moved around a lot as

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Speaker 2: a kid.

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Speaker 3: I floated from family member of family members of different people.

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Speaker 3: You know, I mean.

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Speaker 4: Cool.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: When Otis finished high school, he worked in construction, but

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Speaker 2: before long he decided he can make more money hustling.

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Speaker 3: I'm not a violent person, but I can get vin

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Speaker 3: and give. I'll put in a particular situation that's try

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Speaker 3: the reason, but sometime the goal is beyond reason.

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Speaker 2: Otis's rap sheet is long and goes back to at

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Speaker 2: least nineteen ninety one. He's been charged with battery, armed robbery,

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Speaker 2: credit card fraud, and grand theft auto. Right now, he's

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Speaker 2: in federal prison in the Midwest, set to get out

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Speaker 2: in a few years. Otis is forty nine, black, shaved

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Speaker 2: head at least in the photos we have, and he's

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Speaker 2: around five foot seven, he has some scars, there's a

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Speaker 2: dark mark on his forehead, a callous that some Muslims

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Speaker 2: get from praying otis. He brings us to another chapter

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Speaker 2: of this story, and in particular, to get another way

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Speaker 2: of thinking about and understanding the truth. I've encountered truths

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Speaker 2: that were tucked away just beyond my reach, and truths

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Speaker 2: that were wrapped up in coats of fiction. With this guy,

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Speaker 2: there was no secrecy or subterfuge or anything like that. Really,

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Speaker 2: it was the opposite. In fact, for more than twenty years,

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Speaker 2: he has been blasting at full volume that he is

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Speaker 2: the one who shot Deputies Ricky Keinchin and Algernon English,

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Speaker 2: but no one was really listening.

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Speaker 3: I've gotten away with murder for real. On some people say, man,

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Speaker 3: you get away with murder. I've literally gotten away with murder.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I don't help all of it. It's not

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Speaker 3: like that these people are not aware. It's just that

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Speaker 3: they don't want to accept it because, you know, most

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Speaker 3: of the time, like most human beings, if we do

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Speaker 3: something wrong, we don't want to be told if we're wrong.

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Speaker 3: And they convicted the wrong guy and sit the wrong

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Speaker 3: guy to prison for life, for something that another guy needs.

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Speaker 2: When you track Otis's story, it's not impossible that he

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Speaker 2: could have gone overlooked for years, ignored. Because someone confessing

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Speaker 2: to a murder willingly submitting themselves to at least a

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Speaker 2: long prison term and maybe even the death penalty. It

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Speaker 2: just seems weird, hard to believe until maybe it is

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Speaker 2: believed taken for truth by the right people. People with influence.

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Speaker 2: They recruit the power of big institutions, and what seemed

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Speaker 2: before like conventional wisdom is suddenly unsettled. So we had

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Speaker 2: to investigate Otis's story for ourselves because it might get

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Speaker 2: a man, Jamil out of prison. From Campside Media, Tenderfoot TV,

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Speaker 2: and iHeart podcasts, This is Radic I'm Mosey's Secret, Episode

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Speaker 2: six Confession. At the time of the shootout in the

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Speaker 2: West End March of two thousand, Otis Jackson was on

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Speaker 2: parole for a battery conviction he had picked up in Nevada.

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Speaker 2: He'd allegedly shot a guy after an argument over a dog.

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Speaker 2: Otis was allowed to stay at his mother's house in

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Speaker 2: Atlanta because he was wearing an ankle monitor. Each day

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Speaker 2: after work, Otis was supposed to go straight home to

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Speaker 2: his mom's. Basically, he had a curfew. But a few

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Speaker 2: weeks after the shootout and after a man Jamille was

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Speaker 2: arrested for it, Otis was sent back to Nevada for

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Speaker 2: violating his parole, and he was incarcerated at the Clark

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Speaker 2: County Detention Center in Las Vegas.

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Speaker 3: When I got back in Nevada, I immediately called the

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Speaker 3: authorities there, and actually, to be honest, they didn't want

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Speaker 3: to hear it. I called maybe about eight times.

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Speaker 2: Finally an FBI agent went out to the prison to

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Speaker 2: listen to what Otis had to say, and he confessed

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Speaker 2: to shooting Deputy Kenjin and Deputy English. This was months

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Speaker 2: before man Jamil's trial would start in Earnest.

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Speaker 3: I just said it, little man, you guys have the

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Speaker 3: wrong guy in jail, you know, so I don't want

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Speaker 3: anybody in jail or in treason for something that I know.

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Speaker 3: The rested the wrong guy. So here's what happened. And

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Speaker 3: he was definitely not interested in that. He told me,

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Speaker 3: any man, we got over the shake case here with Jamil,

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Speaker 3: so there's no need for you to be involved in this.

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Speaker 2: After Otis confessed, he was moved to solitary confinement. The

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Speaker 2: guards put a sign on his door that said cop killer,

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Speaker 2: and they started to get giving him a hard time.

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Speaker 5: He was playing with the food who called me cop killer.

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Speaker 5: Sometime they would let me out of the shower. Sometimes

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Speaker 5: they wouldn't, and when they did, sometime they would put

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Speaker 5: me in a shower and locked me in a shower,

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Speaker 5: and I would be in handcuff in that shower for

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Speaker 5: hours without being able to actually shower because I'm still

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Speaker 5: in handcuff.

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Speaker 3: So y'a. But man, listen, A lot of crazy stuff happened.

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Speaker 2: A few months after he spoke to the FBI, Otis

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Speaker 2: wrote a statement, not sure if he put it in

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Speaker 2: the mail or just handed it off to a guard,

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Speaker 2: but it said, I Otis Milton Jackson was just trying

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Speaker 2: to help a brother, not knowing it would give me

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Speaker 2: the case. I loved Jamil, but I did not do anything.

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Speaker 2: I killed no one, and Jamil killed no one. I'm

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Speaker 2: so sorry for making the FBI feel as if I

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Speaker 2: did this. Robert McBurney, the lead prosecutor in a man

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Speaker 2: Jamial's case, he learned of Otis's confession, and because of

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Speaker 2: procedural rules around potentially exculpatory evidence like this, McBurnie had

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Speaker 2: to tell the defense team Otis's retraction just a few

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Speaker 2: months after he officially confessed. That would be a problem

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Speaker 2: for the defense if they called and to testify. But

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Speaker 2: Jack Martin, a man Jamil's lead defense lawyer, he suggested

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Speaker 2: he wasn't too concerned about that. Otis said he withdrew

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Speaker 2: his confession because he'd been thrown in solitary confinement, a

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Speaker 2: decision that a jury could make sense of the investigator

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Speaker 2: for the defense what Tani Taijimba he interviewed Otis. Martin

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Speaker 2: remembered the report that what Tani gave the defense team.

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Speaker 4: He you know, described Otis Jackson as giving us a

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Speaker 4: consistent story. But you never know about somebody where, you know.

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Speaker 4: I don't know whether believe him or not, but that's

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Speaker 4: what his story makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Not sure whether he's telling the truth, but the story

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Speaker 2: makes sense. That would have to be good enough. Remember,

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Speaker 2: they only needed a reasonable doubt. Martin was ready to

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Speaker 2: call Otis as a witness, but then Robert McBurney, the

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Speaker 2: prosecutor he got in touch with Martin.

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Speaker 4: McBurney told me, listen, Jack, he was on probation at

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Speaker 4: the time. He had an acco monitor on him, and

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Speaker 4: we can prove that he wasn't in the West End

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Speaker 4: area that night.

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Speaker 2: McBurney said he had data from Otis's ankle monitor that

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Speaker 2: showed Otis was at home at his mom's house and

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Speaker 2: it would have been physically impossible for him to have

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Speaker 2: shot the deputies.

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Speaker 4: And he said, I just hope you call him because

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Speaker 4: we'll be able to blow him out of the water

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Speaker 4: with that ankle bracelet. I accepted that as being I

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Speaker 4: didn't think McBurney would lie to me about that. I

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Speaker 4: accepted that, and I thought, well, this is a death

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Speaker 4: penloty case. If we call some witness, it blows up

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Speaker 4: on us in the stand. That's going to HURTSS on

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Speaker 4: the death penalty if we have to go there.

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Speaker 2: If the defense called Otis and then the prosecution proved

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Speaker 2: he was lying, the jury wouldn't trust the defense team

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Speaker 2: during the sentencing phase when they were asking the jury

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Speaker 2: to spare a man Jamil's life.

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Speaker 4: So I made the decision or we made a decision

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Speaker 4: not to call him.

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Speaker 2: The jury never heard Otis's confession, and AmAm Jamil was

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Speaker 2: convicted and sentenced to life in prison. After a mam

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Speaker 2: Jamil's initial appeals failed in the Georgia Supreme Court. His

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Speaker 2: lawyers filed a habeas corpus appeal, the final shot at

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Speaker 2: least to the courts to get him out of prison.

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Speaker 2: The legal team got a deposition from Otis, who was

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Speaker 2: out of solitary at this point, and he again confessed

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Speaker 2: to the shooting under oath. In February of two thousand

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Speaker 2: and seven, after a Mam Jamil had already spent about

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Speaker 2: five years in solitary confinement, there was a hearing focused

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Speaker 2: on the possibility that Otis shot the deputies. It was

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Speaker 2: in Tattnall County, Georgia, where a Mamjmial was being held

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Speaker 2: at Reidsville Prison. At this hearing, a founder of the

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Speaker 2: company that made the technology uses a part of Otis's

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Speaker 2: angle monitor to fight. He said the data actually did

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Speaker 2: not show definitively that Otis was at home at the

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Speaker 2: time of the shootout. This was big. It meant that

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Speaker 2: Jack Martin had bad information when he decided against calling

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Speaker 2: Otis to the stand during the trial. It meant Otis

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Speaker 2: could have been anywhere the night of March sixteenth, two thousand,

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Speaker 2: including in the West End, behind the trigger of a

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Speaker 2: semi automatic rifle. So with all this information in mind,

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Speaker 2: when Otis told my producer Johnny his story about what

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Speaker 2: happened that night in the West End, we had to listen.

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Speaker 3: I went there. I went to work first, and I

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Speaker 3: found out that I wasn't on the schedule to work.

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Speaker 2: That was like a free pass for Otis to do

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Speaker 2: whatever he wanted that day, under the guys that he

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Speaker 2: was working to be out in the world at least

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Speaker 2: before he had to me back home. In the evening,

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Speaker 2: Otis decided to run some errands.

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Speaker 3: I was moving some guns from one place to another

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Speaker 3: and a bulletproof ess. So I'll put the guns in

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Speaker 3: the trunk and I put I had one gun on me,

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Speaker 3: a nine millimeis, and I drove to the West End community.

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Speaker 2: Otis said that at the time he was one of

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Speaker 2: the leaders of the Almighty Vice Lord Nation, an organization

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Speaker 2: law enforcement would call it a gang that was founded

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Speaker 2: in Chicago. Back in the day. Otis was planning to

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Speaker 2: get a branch of the Vice Lords going in Atlanta,

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Speaker 2: and while he was running errands on March sixteenth, his

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Speaker 2: plan was to visit a Maam Jamil to give him

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Speaker 2: a heads up. The Western mass did under a man

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Speaker 2: Jamil had armed security patrols, and AmAm Jamil had developed

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Speaker 2: a reputation over the years for pushing out drug dealers.

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Speaker 2: Otis just wanted to stop by to say, hey, we're

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Speaker 2: going to be moving into the area, but we don't

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Speaker 2: want any business with your community. Otis said he parked

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Speaker 2: his car outside the mass did and the brothers told

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Speaker 2: him AmAm Jamial wasn't around. He stuck around for prayer

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Speaker 2: and he chatted with the brothers afterward. Actually, he realized

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Speaker 2: it was getting late, and so he walked across the

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Speaker 2: street to a Man Jamil's store, hoping he'd may be

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Speaker 2: shown up, But the lights were off and the doors

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Speaker 2: were locked. As Otis was walking away, the deputies pulled up.

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Speaker 2: They got out and told Otis to put up his hands.

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Speaker 2: Otis said he tried to explain himself, said he wasn't

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Speaker 2: breaking into the store or anything, that he was looking

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Speaker 2: for the owner, but one of the deputies had already

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Speaker 2: drawn his gun and was screaming out orders.

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Speaker 3: So it's like two half of mails. Either one of

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Speaker 3: us are back and now, and before I knew it, it

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Speaker 3: had just escalated. I knew I had a gun on me,

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Speaker 3: I'm all house arrest, I got so this is gonna

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Speaker 3: send me right back to prison. It just wasn't happen,

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Speaker 3: and I did what I felt that I had to

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Speaker 3: do at the time. I pulled out my gun and fired.

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Speaker 2: Both deputies fired back, and Otis was hitting the arm.

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Speaker 2: He ran to his car, which was parked across the

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Speaker 2: street with a trunk full of guns, remember, and he

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Speaker 2: grabbed an M fourteen, a semi automatic rifle. Otis said

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Speaker 2: that Kenchin was being more aggressive than English, who was

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Speaker 2: calling for help on his radio. So Otis went hard

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Speaker 2: after Kenchin, who tried to take cover behind the black

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Speaker 2: Mercedes that was parked on the street. Then Kenchin fell,

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Speaker 2: Otis walked over to him.

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Speaker 3: I remember him telling me that he had a child

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Speaker 3: and he was explaining to me, man, don't do it.

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Speaker 3: You know, I got a little girl, and he was

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Speaker 3: telling the other stuff. And at the time, I mean,

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Speaker 3: you just shot me. You don't understand, like you know,

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Speaker 3: we don't you know, we don't flit to the point

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Speaker 3: of no retire. Now you just you know, shot me.

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Speaker 3: I'm sitting up here a bloody mess. I'm bleeding on

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Speaker 3: the head and also so I'm thinking that I'll shot

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Speaker 3: in the head. But it wasn't a bullet at all.

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Speaker 3: It was a piece of land from the car that

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Speaker 3: had large in the side of my head. So but

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Speaker 3: I didn't know it at the time. So I stood

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Speaker 3: over him and I shot him in the growing.

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Speaker 2: Otis said. He turned to find English and saw him

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Speaker 2: running away toward the field next to the mast Jit

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Speaker 2: and then shot and bloody. Amped up on adrenaline, Otis

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Speaker 2: forgot his car was there and started looking for help.

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Speaker 3: Well, you go through a situation like that, you know,

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Speaker 3: when you're shooting at people and people are shooting at you,

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Speaker 3: you can't be a little outside of you, said, I'm

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Speaker 3: not going to say out of a body's fan, but

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Speaker 3: you kind of get outside of yourself. So I got

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Speaker 3: a little confused for a second.

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Speaker 2: Eventually, Otis came back to his senses, he found his car,

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Speaker 2: and he drove home. This was a wild story, but

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Speaker 2: in some ways it made more sense than the story

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Speaker 2: we had heard about AmAm Jamil. Otis had a track

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Speaker 2: record of shooting people with little provocation. He was a hothead,

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Speaker 2: and he didn't have as much to lose as a

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Speaker 2: Mam Jamial. Still, something was definitely off about the guy

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Speaker 2: he'd pled guilty to writing letters to public officials threatening

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Speaker 2: to kill them unless they accepted his confession and freedom.

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Speaker 2: Ma'am Jamil, that's why he was in prison. But like

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Speaker 2: I said, some powerful people were convinced he was telling

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Speaker 2: the truth. It helped a Mam Jamil get access to

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Speaker 2: a new legal process that could potentially get him out

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Speaker 2: of prison. It took the judge seven years to reject

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Speaker 2: a Ma'am Jamil's habeas appeal, the one in Tattnall County, Georgia,

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Speaker 2: where it came out that the ankle monitor did not

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Speaker 2: prove Otis Jackson was at home during the shootout. The

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00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:44,840
Speaker 2: judge rejected the appeal in twenty eleven. AmAm Jamil's lawyers

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Speaker 2: kept at it, though, appealing to higher courts. But I'll

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Speaker 2: just tell you now, all of those habeas appeals were rejected.

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Speaker 2: The odds of an inmate winning any type of release

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Speaker 2: on a habeas claim are very very slim. But then

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Speaker 2: in Yeahanuary of twenty twenty, almost two decades after the shootout,

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Speaker 2: a new path opened up for a Mam Jmial, new

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Speaker 2: hope for him and his supporters. The Fulton County DA

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Speaker 2: created something called the Conviction Integrity Unit, or the CiU.

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Speaker 2: It's a division within the prosecutor's office that examines cases

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Speaker 2: from the past looking for wrongful convictions that could be overturned.

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Speaker 2: When the civil rights legend Andrew Young wrote a letter

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Speaker 2: to the Fulton County DA claiming a Maam Jimial was innocent,

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Speaker 2: he sent it to the CiU. Specifically, Otis Jackson was

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Speaker 2: a focus of the letter. Young wrote that Otis matched

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Speaker 2: some eyewitnesses descriptions of the shooter. Otis was violating his

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Speaker 2: parole and so he had a motive for shooting the deputies.

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Speaker 2: He had ammunition at home that matched the ammunition used

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Speaker 2: during the shooting, and he had been convicted of violent

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Speaker 2: crimes in the past. It seems like Young's letter influenced

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Speaker 2: the Fulton County DA because we later learned the CiU

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00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,520
Speaker 2: was reviewing a Ma'am Jamil's case and the ma'm Jamil

305
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:10,480
Speaker 2: supporters in other corners. They focused on Otis, too, mounting

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Speaker 2: campaigns to try to convince big media organizations like CNN

307
00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,679
Speaker 2: to interview him. A coalition of twenty eight Muslim American

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00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,919
Speaker 2: organizations sent a letter to the Department of Justice that

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Speaker 2: also made Otis's confession a focus. But to convince the

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Speaker 2: DA's office or the courts, Otis's confession alone would never

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Speaker 2: be enough, especially after all these years. It wouldn't be

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00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,400
Speaker 2: enough to convince me either. Any good journalists would want

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Speaker 2: to find corroboration for a bombshell like this, so we

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00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,560
Speaker 2: set out to try to find people who Otis had

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Speaker 2: encountered or spoken to in the aftermath of the shooting.

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Speaker 3: I'm coming down from the durn them was now the situation.

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Speaker 2: That started in the When Otis returned to his mom's house,

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Speaker 2: the phone rang. A parole officer was calling to check

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Speaker 2: on him. Otis told the officer he was just getting

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00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,360
Speaker 2: home from work, but the officer said he still had

321
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Speaker 2: to market as a violation. But Otis's mind was elsewhere.

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Speaker 2: He said he was in pain, bleeding from the gunshot wounds.

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Speaker 2: He called a neighbor, a nurse who lived across the street,

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Speaker 2: to come over and fix them up, and two other

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00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,320
Speaker 2: women came to lend a hand. A bullet was lodged

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Speaker 2: in Otis's shoulder, and they extracted it stitched him up.

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Speaker 2: One of the women gave Otis some painkillers, but advill

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Speaker 2: or tile and all after a bullet wound. I'm thinking

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Speaker 2: this had to be excruciating.

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Speaker 3: Luckily for me, I just happened to know these people,

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Speaker 3: because if I had not, probably would have died.

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Speaker 2: The morning after the shootout, Otis said he gave all

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Speaker 2: the guns he had to his brother, told him he

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00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,960
Speaker 2: didn't want them because he was on parole, and then

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00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,080
Speaker 2: he called a reporter at a local TV station. Otis

336
00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,120
Speaker 2: was worried and Mam Jamil was going to be arrested

337
00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:57,680
Speaker 2: for the shooting.

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Speaker 6: You got to understand when they when they start artist

339
00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 6: saying that this guy did it and they were looking

340
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,359
Speaker 6: for this they were looking for him. The first thing

341
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,600
Speaker 6: that brought to my mind was, damn, man, they're about

342
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Speaker 6: to arrest the wrong person.

343
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Speaker 3: I don't want this guy to go to jail for

344
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Speaker 3: something I did. That's not right.

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Speaker 2: When the reporter showed up, Otis said he offered to

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Speaker 2: give him the bloody clothes he had worn during the shootout,

347
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 2: but the reporter said, look, if you do that, then

348
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Speaker 2: I'd have to turn them over to the police. Otis

349
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,399
Speaker 2: didn't like that idea, so he didn't give the reporter

350
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,960
Speaker 2: the clothes, but he still agreed to an interview. Meanwhile,

351
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,800
Speaker 2: since Otis had violated his parole, law enforcement came to

352
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,840
Speaker 2: search his house, and a few weeks later he was

353
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:49,200
Speaker 2: shipped back to Nevada. So that's Otis's story of the

354
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:54,480
Speaker 2: aftermath of the shooting. Plenty of leads to chase down right. First,

355
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 2: we went to the block where Otis was staying with

356
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 2: his mom back in March of two thousand and we

357
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 2: spoke to some of the neighbors. They confirmed that Otis's

358
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,479
Speaker 2: mother lived there, but they didn't know any nurses who

359
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:09,359
Speaker 2: lived nearby in two thousand. No corroboration there. Then we

360
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,800
Speaker 2: got a transcription of an interview with Otis's brother. He said, nah,

361
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,920
Speaker 2: Otis never gave me any guns. No corroboration there, But

362
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,120
Speaker 2: maybe that's what anyone would say to protect a brother

363
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:21,919
Speaker 2: who gave him a bunch of guns and then confess

364
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 2: to a murder that happened the night before. So next

365
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 2: we tracked down a recording in the local news segment

366
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Speaker 2: featuring Otis. One of the man Jamil supporters gave it

367
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 2: to us. They had been monitoring and recording TV news

368
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,400
Speaker 2: after the shootout. You are watching eleven or five news

369
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:42,120
Speaker 2: at Viberi as a suspect in the shootings of two deputies.

370
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Speaker 7: By its extradition back to.

371
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,919
Speaker 5: Georgia, old friends paint a different picture of a man

372
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:47,960
Speaker 5: accused of murder.

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Speaker 7: He took a community that was infested with prostitution and

374
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Speaker 7: drugs and drug dealers, and he cleaned it up. Good

375
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 7: evening again.

376
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 2: I'm de Otis goes by Silas. Muhammad in the segment

377
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 2: text at the bottom of the screen calls him a

378
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 2: friend of Alamine. From what we've heard, when Otis was

379
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,360
Speaker 2: in Atlanta, he might have stopped by the mass jed

380
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,880
Speaker 2: to mix a lot a few times, but a friend

381
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 2: of Alamine. That was probably local TV news stretching the

382
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 2: facts a bit. The story was set up to be

383
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,920
Speaker 2: about someone close to AmAm Jamil and the Weston Masjid

384
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 2: who argued to Ma'am Jamil was a peaceful religious leader.

385
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,920
Speaker 7: I know that Jamil a Lamine did not shoot any

386
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 7: police officers that night.

387
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Speaker 8: Would you put your hand on the Kuran and say that, yes,

388
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 8: Sir I would.

389
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 7: Would you stake your life on him, yes, Sir I will.

390
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 2: The segment buried at the very end what I would

391
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Speaker 2: consider the most important information from the whole thing.

392
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Speaker 8: Solace. Mohammad says that there are people in this community

393
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,360
Speaker 8: who revere and respect and love Jamil Abdullah A Lamine,

394
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 8: and that there are people here who would do anything

395
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Speaker 8: to protect him, that includes shooting at Fulton County Sheriff's deputies.

396
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,880
Speaker 5: Do you mark if silace, Mohammed says, Alameine didn't pull

397
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:02,400
Speaker 5: the trigger, does he know who did?

398
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 7: Well?

399
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 8: I asked him that and he said he would not

400
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 8: answer for two reasons. He said he fears self incrimination

401
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 8: and he also respects the code of silence. But he

402
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,120
Speaker 8: did say he hopes and expects that important information will

403
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 8: be revealed during the court process.

404
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,439
Speaker 2: We played this story back for the reporter he's retired now,

405
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 2: and he told us he didn't remember it. That's understandable.

406
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 2: A local TV reporter might do thousands of stories in

407
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 2: their career, and so we asked, did he remember Otis

408
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 2: telling him off the record and off camera that he

409
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 2: had been involved in a recent shooting. No, the reporter said,

410
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 2: and if Otis had told him that, he would have remembered.

411
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 2: When we asked Otis for his help corroborating his story,

412
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 2: asked him who we should try to talk to and

413
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,680
Speaker 2: if he has suggestions for contacting them. He wasn't much help.

414
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,959
Speaker 2: Too much time had passed. He said, you're not going

415
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 2: to get anywhere.

416
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 3: If I were in your shoes, I'll probably would scrap

417
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 3: this story and do something else, maybe a story on dogs,

418
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 3: you know, because.

419
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 6: I'm bey honest man, like, you're not gonna have a

420
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 6: lot of people willing to talk about the murd of

421
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 6: a police officer.

422
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 2: I got a laugh out of that one. Yes, interviewing

423
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 2: folks about their dogs would be easier than what we're doing.

424
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: People are not especially willing to share information about a

425
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 2: murder they might be even tangentially connected to. But I

426
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 2: got the sense that Otis was communicating more than that.

427
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 4: Just believe me.

428
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 2: He seemed to be saying, this story could move mountains

429
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 2: if people only believed. Some things might work like that.

430
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 2: But journalism isn't one of them, and for the most part,

431
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:51,959
Speaker 2: the legal system isn't either. We uncovered some glaring inconsistencies

432
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 2: between Otis's different accounts of what happened. On March sixteenth,

433
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 2: two thousand, The FBI interviewed Otis in Las Vegas, a

434
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: few months after the shoot. According to a summary of

435
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 2: the interview Otis had it all went down during the

436
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 2: day and Maam Jamil was there and when the deputies

437
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 2: pulled up, Otis jumped to his defense. There was a

438
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,239
Speaker 2: fistfight and then the guns came out, but a Maam

439
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 2: Jamil didn't get involved. That's a different story than Otis's

440
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 2: other accounts, and the shootout definitely happened at night. I

441
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 2: just can't trust Otis, And while the Conviction Integrity Unit

442
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 2: or the courts they might at least consider his story,

443
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 2: I don't think they'll ever be able to trust him either.

444
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 2: Late in our reporting, we learned that in twenty nineteen,

445
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 2: in Florida, Otis was called to testify in a different

446
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 2: high profile murder trial over a Grizzly quadruple murder. He

447
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 2: had made another confession. The judge ordered that a psychologist

448
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 2: evaluate Otis and look into his mental health history. According

449
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 2: to the psychologist's report back in two thousand and six,

450
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: Otis showed no symptoms of distress, but in two thousand

451
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,439
Speaker 2: and eight he made repeated requests for mental health treatment,

452
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 2: and when he was placed in solitary confinement, he began

453
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 2: to report auditory hallucinations. He was hearing voices. Otis was

454
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 2: adamant he was not mentally ill, but a different psychologist

455
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 2: said his symptoms were consistent with bipolar disorder and delusional disorder.

456
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,120
Speaker 2: The psychologists who evaluated Otis wrote that Otis's claims about

457
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: his past were quote highly suspect, but that he had

458
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 2: the capacity to testify in the Florida case. He is

459
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 2: a highly intelligent individual, the report said. One time, when

460
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 2: I was trying to wrap my head around all of this,

461
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 2: I just let my imagination run wild. I started thinking

462
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 2: about how some people who hear voices say they're experiencing

463
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 2: a broader reality through their mind's ear that the rest

464
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 2: of us can't sense. And I thought, Wow, what if

465
00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 2: Otis slash Silas Mohammad slash James Santos keeps infesting the

466
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 2: crimes he was there for, but not really there for

467
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 2: until And this is where I really let my imagination

468
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 2: run wild. By some epiphany, Otis learns to control his

469
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 2: powers and emerges from the darkest prisons as a force

470
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 2: for good. Otis Jackson is a comic book superhero cool

471
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: origin story. Right, No, it doesn't make a lick of sense,

472
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 2: but he got me thinking there might be a place

473
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 2: in this story about AmAm Jamil for a more intentional

474
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 2: use of imagination. A ma'am Jamil was a magnet for

475
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 2: people who couldn't distinguish between made up stories and what

476
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 2: was happening before their eyes, whose fantasies would float out

477
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 2: into the world and have very real consequences. Otis is

478
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 2: maybe the most extreme example, but he wasn't the only one.

479
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 2: If I can't escape this mythological realm, maybe I should

480
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 2: learn to play with it. A departure from the realm

481
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 2: of journalism, for sure, but maybe it would do some good.

482
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:06,239
Speaker 2: But for now, back to reality. Otis responded to one

483
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 2: of our letters a few months ago, but he hasn't

484
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 2: called us in months. He never came out and told

485
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 2: Johnny I'm done with these interviews, but on one of

486
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 2: their later calls, Otis said.

487
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 3: This, I'm to a point, man, where really I'm kind

488
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 3: of I'm kind of tired of talking about it. For real.

489
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 3: I've got to a point where I feel like it

490
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 3: is what it is. Man. I got a release date.

491
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 3: They're gonna let me out of prison, so I don't

492
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 3: really see the need to, you know, keep repeating something

493
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 3: over and over and over and over and over again,

494
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 3: especially where when there's no real benefit for me. So

495
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 3: why I keep doing that?

496
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 2: I do think that a part of Otis really believes

497
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: what he's saying, and for some reason, the story took

498
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: holding a fragment of his personality. His reality is so

499
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 2: real for him he do almost anything to make others

500
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 2: see it. But after hours of listening to Otis's voice,

501
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: I wanted to get back to the documents, and in

502
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 2: the thousands of pages we had, there were a few

503
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 2: that I needed to spend more time with. Years ago,

504
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 2: a man Jamil recounted his version of what happened the

505
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 2: night of the shootout, and I turned there next. At

506
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 2: the time of this recording, a mam Jamil Elamine is

507
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 2: seventy nine years old and he's still in prison, a

508
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 2: federal prisoner in Arizona, equipped to provide medical care. He

509
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 2: got out of Adax, Florence because he was sick. It

510
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 2: may be obvious by now, but this feels like the

511
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: time to say it. I wasn't able to interview him.

512
00:29:54,280 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 2: I wrote to him, but I didn't hear back. AmAm

513
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 2: Jamil didn't testify during his murder trial, but during one

514
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 2: of his appeals the one in Tattneau County back in

515
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven. He gave his account under oath

516
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 2: and on the record of what happened on March sixteenth,

517
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: two thousand. AmAm Jamil said that earlier in the day,

518
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 2: hours before the shootout, he had a run in with

519
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,479
Speaker 2: some young folks in the neighborhood who were selling drugs.

520
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 2: AmAm Jamil hated drugs, hated them since his days as

521
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: Rat Brown. He saw them as a scourge on the

522
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 2: black community and part of a government conspiracy to keep

523
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 2: up potentially rebellious population sedated. During his testimony, he said

524
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: the western neighborhood near the Maschiff had been infested with

525
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 2: drugs at least until the brothers led by him started

526
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 2: exerting their influence, and this had made him some enemies.

527
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 2: As evening approached on the night of the shooting, a

528
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: man Jamil had dinner with his family at Red Life. Afterward,

529
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: he wanted to check the mail, so he drove back

530
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 2: to the West End and parked his car near the

531
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 2: Masjed in the store, He got out of the car

532
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 2: and he was in the empty field next to the

533
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 2: mass Jed, walking towards the back entrance when he said

534
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 2: he heard two pistol shots and then many more rounds

535
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 2: of gunfire. A Maam Jamil didn't look back. He said

536
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 2: he went into safety mode, thinking the drug dealers were

537
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: after him. He got low and ran behind the mass Jed.

538
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 2: Then he kept running through the neighborhood he knew well.

539
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 2: He went in a loop behind houses, through backyards and

540
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 2: cuts until he arrived back at the store that's across

541
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 2: the street from the mass Jed. The gunfire had stopped

542
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 2: and he didn't see anyone else around. He got in

543
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 2: his Mercedes and he drove off. AmAm Jamil said he

544
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 2: initially intended to drive home, but then thinking the drug

545
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 2: dealers were after him, he decided and said to go

546
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 2: to Lowndes County, Alabama, the location of a smaller Muslim

547
00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 2: community he founded. An attorney for the state arguing against

548
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 2: a Ma'am Jamial's appeal asked why he didn't call the police,

549
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 2: and Maam Jamial said the mask Jed had a quote

550
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: security arrangement. Instead of calling the police, the first people

551
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: he would have spoken to would have been meant on

552
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 2: the mass Jed security force, who were supposed to be

553
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 2: on duty that night. Over the years. This is not

554
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: one that has haunted you or that you think about

555
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: or no. Brett Zembric, the Atlanta Police Department detective who

556
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 2: investigated the shootout, he was one of the first people

557
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 2: I interviewed. A lot of what Brett said was in

558
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 2: my head when I reviewed a Mam Jamial's testimony.

559
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 9: I don't have any doubts about this case. I never

560
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 9: had any doubts about this case. It was a case that,

561
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 9: you know, these guys got shot. They just happened to

562
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 9: be wearing badges and guns, and this is who shot him,

563
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 9: and he just happened to be someone that had some notariety.

564
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 9: There's absolutely no no thought whatsoever that there's somebody else involved,

565
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:07,239
Speaker 9: that there's you know, a conspiracy to get a trip

566
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 9: who wins there? I mean, what was he doing that

567
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 9: was so you know, dramatic that we needed to get

568
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 9: him off the street at any cost.

569
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 2: I don't get it.

570
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 9: So, you know, based on what I know about the incident,

571
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 9: what I've been told, what I see, and what the

572
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 9: test results are, I have no doubt in my mind

573
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 9: that you know, Jamil all means shot these two deputies

574
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 9: killed one of them. I don't think for a minute

575
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 9: that he needs another trial or you know, another chance

576
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 9: at you know, doing good. I think what happened happened,

577
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 9: and the punishment fits a crime, and I'm glad.

578
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: He's doing the time. When I left Brett's house, I thought,

579
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 2: I can't really argue as much of what he said.

580
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 2: It became even harder for me to believe that a

581
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: man Jamil had a confer with drug dealers that ultimately

582
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 2: blossomed into a vast conspiracy, a conspiracy that's been kept

583
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 2: secret all these years. But after I looked more closely

584
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 2: at the trial transcripts and the documents we got from

585
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,399
Speaker 2: the DA's office, and after I talked to people who

586
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 2: were part of the mass did and who lived in

587
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 2: the West End, I became convinced that there was more

588
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 2: to what happened that night than what was revealed in

589
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 2: court or even in all the documents we'd obtained. When

590
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 2: I asked the man Jamil's defense attorneys, Tony Axim and

591
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 2: Jack Martin for their theories of what happened, it only

592
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: confirmed my suspicion. Here's Axom, I can't tell you that

593
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 2: I don't know the answer to that.

594
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 10: And I said, there with a smile. I have no theories,

595
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 10: have no theories, can't answer. I don't know the answer

596
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 10: question I wish I did. My memory is totally blank.

597
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,280
Speaker 2: That might be one of the most entertaining NOE commet

598
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 2: responses that I've ever gotten in my career. Jack Martin

599
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 2: was more helpful.

600
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 4: I seriously think that it's possible, not just possible, but

601
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 4: likely that al I mean was confronted by these officers

602
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 4: and there was a lot of yelling and screaming, and

603
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,879
Speaker 4: that somebody is supporting the community. Maybe it's Otis Jacks,

604
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 4: and maybe somebody else saw that and thought all means

605
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 4: in trouble and did something stupid. All I mean was

606
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 4: reluctant to present a case forcely that somebody else did.

607
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 4: He was trying to protect that person. He thought that

608
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 4: would involve him, and it would some extent, but it

609
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 4: would it would defeat the murder charge. So I understood that.

610
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 4: So I don't think we pressed that as hard as

611
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 4: we perhaps should have, but we let the jury sort

612
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 4: of linger out there over that issue.

613
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 2: We let the jury sort of linger out there over

614
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 2: that issue. Martin said, I'm not bringing in all this

615
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 2: information from Martin. It's just another way to raise doubt

616
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 2: about whether a man, Jimial shot the two deputies. It's

617
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: something I've heard on and off the record that maybe

618
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 2: someone else was there, that the West End was the

619
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 2: kind of neighborhood where people confronted trouble with guns blazing.

620
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 2: Everybody knew he was a dangered person, and my friend said, Hey,

621
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 2: what hell you do.

622
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 7: Don't get in the call with that motherfucker because they

623
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 7: know you'll come at when a murricane.

624
00:36:46,880 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 2: That's on the next episode of Radical. Radical is a

625
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 2: production of Campside Media, Tenderfoot TV, and iHeart Podcasts. Radical

626
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,760
Speaker 2: was reported and written by Johnny Kaufman and me Mosey's Secret.

627
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 2: Johnnykauffman is our senior producer. Shepa Joseph is our associate producer.

628
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 2: Editing by Eric Benson, Johnny Couffman, Emily Martinez and Matt Cher.

629
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 2: Fact checking by Sophie Hurwitz, Kaylin Lynch, and Layla Dos.

630
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 2: Original music by Kyle Murdoch and by Ray Murray of

631
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 2: Organized Noise, Sound design and mixing by Kevin Seaman. Recording

632
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 2: by Ewan Leed trem Ewen and Sheba Joseph. Campside Media's

633
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 2: operations team is Doug Slaywan, Ashley Warren, Elijah Papes, Destiny Dingle,

634
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 2: and Sabina Merra. The executive producers at Campside Media are

635
00:37:54,920 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 2: Josh Dean, Vanessa, Gregoriatis, Adam Hoff, and Matt Cher. For

636
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 2: Tenderfoot TV, executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay.

637
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 2: The executive producers at iHeart Podcasts are Matt Frederick and

638
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 2: Alex Williams, with additional support from Trevor Young,