1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. You so often said 2 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: that parents should never outlive their children. In the case 3 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to talk to you about today, parents did 4 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: outlive their child, but only by a few moments. In 5 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: arguably one of most brutal cases I've covered in sometime today, 6 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about the Linquist triple homicide. I'm Joseph 7 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs. My friend Jackie 8 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: Howard is here with me, the executive producer of Crime Stories. 9 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: When Nancy Grace tell you what, Jackie, this case is 10 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: what what can you tell us about the Minquist family. 11 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: So this is one of the most brutal cases I 12 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: think that we have covered so far. We're talking about Matthew, 13 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: twenty one year old Matthew Linquist and his parents, Kenneth 14 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: and Janet Lindquist. Twenty one year old Matthew at an 15 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: addiction to heroin and he relapsed so as he reached 16 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: out to his dealer to get more, a deal was 17 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: struck because Matthew owed his dealer money. Matthew made the 18 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:39,199 Speaker 1: mistake of telling his dealer, Sergio Korea, that his father 19 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 1: had guns in the basement in a gun safe, and 20 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: he facilitated a plan to have the guns stolen so 21 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: that he could get more drugs from his dealer, Sergio Correa. 22 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: The night of the murders, Sergio Correa and Matthew Linquist 23 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: exchanged multiple text with the last one saying where are you. Matthew, 24 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: for his part of the scheme, is dressed in his 25 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: bathrobe and he meets Serchio and Ruth Correa outside the couple. 26 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: Instead of exchanging information and guns for heroin, the couple 27 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: chase Matthew into the woods and stab him repeatedly with 28 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:27,679 Speaker 1: a machete, hacking at his body repeatedly, over sixty seven times. 29 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: They leave the body there in the woods and then 30 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: proceed into the house, rousing the mother and father out 31 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: of the bed, wanting the keys to the safe. Both 32 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: family members were killed, but not immediately. This goes on 33 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: for about three hours. After Cerchio and Ruth Corea leave 34 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: the home, they set it on fire to try and 35 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: cover up their crimes. So there's a lot to unpack here, Joe. 36 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: In this case, let's start with Matthew packed by a machete, 37 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: left in the woods where his body would not be 38 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: found for a very long time. So my first question 39 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: is if his body had decomposed, and I would say 40 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: most likely skeletonized, how did the emmy and investigators know 41 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: how many times twenty one year old Matthew was stabbed 42 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: and mutilated? You know, Jackie, that one of the terms 43 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: that has come mind from friends of his. They described 44 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: him as being dope sick. And it gives you an 45 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: indication of the status of his life for relative to 46 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: heroin addiction. And and he's driven to this point. I 47 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: think by this, this hunger that he has, that he 48 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: gives away this information. He got involved with two very 49 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: very violent people here that are capable of taking an 50 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: instrument like a machete, and a machete is is you know, 51 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: people think of it as almost like a sword, but 52 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: it's it's actually a chopping instrument. People have used it 53 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: for years hiking, you know, clearing out, clearing out areas 54 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: as they moved through brush. It's also used um in fields, 55 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: uh famously, it's used in taking down bamboo and sugarcane 56 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: and all those sorts of things. It's got a very 57 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: sturdy blade. The shank of the blade is very very thick. 58 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: It almost acts like a long act if you will 59 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: that does have a point on the end, so you 60 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: can facilitate a stabbing motion with it. But many of 61 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: the injuries that you're going to have will be slashes 62 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 1: or cuts. And just so our audience understands the difference 63 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: between a stab and a cut. As a stab and 64 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: it's pretty logical, a stab is going to be deeper 65 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: than long, and of course a slash slice hack is 66 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: going to be longer than deep in most cases. And 67 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: the way this instrument is made eat It's got a 68 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: lot of weight on the backside. So when you bring 69 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: this thing down generating that energy, the weight is traveling 70 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: with it and that that energy transfers through the blade 71 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: to the point of impact. So not only are you 72 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: cutting through the tissue um the external tissue like the skin, 73 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: the subsecute fat in this area, but you're going through 74 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 1: muscle and then as you strike bone as well, you 75 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: will have kind of a staining or an in dwelling 76 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: hemorrhage over the surface area. Now, the trick is the 77 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: trick is when you're trying to examine a body that 78 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: has been down for months, and that's that's the way 79 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: they're framing this is how exactly do you go about 80 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:46,679 Speaker 1: delineating what is a uh anti mortem remember pre death 81 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: or are prior to death and anti mortem insult or 82 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: injury versus a post mortem injury. And so when you're 83 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: there with a body like this, UM and it, trust me, 84 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: it's a rough environment to be in. When you're in 85 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: a in a morgue with a decomposing body, UM, with 86 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: this many injuries. We're talking upwards of sixty insults here. UM, 87 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: it's a very painstaking event because you have to be 88 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: able to separate, You have to be able to look 89 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: at all layers of the tissue and say, Okay, is 90 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 1: this generated as a result of decompositional change or is 91 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: this a direct result of trauma? And people will say, well, 92 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: you know more than why in the world would that 93 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: be important? Well, let me let me kind of explain 94 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: that to you, because one of the elements in all 95 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: three of these deaths is this the specter of torture 96 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: that's coming up. And we hear more about it with 97 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: the parents. But for every injury than an individual sustains 98 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: from a legal standpoint, that in that increases the horror 99 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: that is involved with this. This increases the pain that's 100 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: involved with it and it also increases the duration to 101 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: which an individual is subject to this. Let's just say 102 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: that they had taken him out and dealt him a 103 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: single fatal blow. Well, there's a there's a gulf of 104 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: difference here the way the law looks at this um 105 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: with a single fatal blow as opposed to an individual 106 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: that has been literally literally attacked over sixty times with 107 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: this edged weapon. Knowing what little bit I do know 108 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: about how wounds like this are categorized and looked at, 109 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: You're looking at the knicks in the bones that remain 110 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: is what gives you the number of of hits that 111 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: were made, which tells me, if I think about this, logically, 112 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: tells me that each one of these impacts was made. 113 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: I guess what I'm trying to say is each one 114 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: of these impacts is almost if they were still swinging 115 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: a baseball bat for example, which we're going to talk 116 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: about a little bit later with with the parents. So 117 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: I mean, these were hard knicks. It's not like you 118 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: just started swinging, because it had to go all the 119 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: way through the skin down to the bone. You're right, 120 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: jack In, and I'm glad that you brought this up, 121 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: because this is a big area of delineation in um 122 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: in forensic pathology, particularly as it applies too sharp force injuries. 123 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: I want everybody listen to this as it applies to 124 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: sharp force injuries compared to blunt force injuries. And if 125 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: people think about they hear the term laceration. For instance, 126 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: lacerations are associated with blunt force. That is, a blunted 127 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: object like a baseball bat or even a hammer, and 128 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: you sustain the laceration to your skin. And one of 129 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,319 Speaker 1: the ways we tell that things that this is a laceration, 130 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: generally the injury will be very jagged. When you look 131 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: at the edges of the weapon, you'll have the tissue 132 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: that is still connected. And this is there's actually a 133 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 1: term that's applied to this called tissue bridging. And if 134 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: if people will kind of interlace their fingers in front 135 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: of them and look at them, that's tissue bridging, and 136 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: it kind of gives you an idea so that the 137 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: tissue doesn't come completely apart. That's an indication of blunt 138 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 1: force injury. And then along the margins you'll have little 139 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: bits of hemorrhage in there. Now, if you're talking about 140 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: sharp force, say like for instance, with an axe, or machete, 141 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: there will be no tissue bridging. And the reason is 142 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: is that that blade is milled and it is its 143 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: sole purpose in life is to divide the tissue. So 144 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: you will not have this kind of uh conjoined edge. 145 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: It will no longer have that that those little bridges, 146 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: stringy bridges of tissue connecting it. So when we go 147 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 1: to look at an insult in the street, remember we're 148 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: not there. We're we're investigators that are coming up after 149 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: the case. We weren't there to witness the event. We 150 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: have to apply our knowledge as to what we're seeing. 151 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: Is this a beating or is stabbing because many times 152 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: these cases are equally as bloody. So when you're looking 153 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: at these injuries, you don't know what you have, particularly 154 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: you know where Matthew's remains are found. Keep in mind, 155 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: not only did he composed, but he's out in the woods. 156 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: You're not talking about the best lighting situation, the best 157 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: environment to examine something. And it's very important to understand 158 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: that you need to do is best of an assessment 159 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: at the scene, to collect all of the data and 160 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: evidence at the same relative to the injuries that you 161 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 1: have are his best you can figure it out because 162 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: let's say, for instance, if someone's hit with a baseball bat, 163 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: a wooden baseball bat, maybe that bad splinters. Well, if 164 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: you see evidence of injuries that say this is a 165 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: blunt force trauma and suddenly see a piece of wood, well, 166 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: that's important in knowing the nature of this injury. So 167 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: you have to be able to contextualize these injuries at 168 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: the scene as best you can. You don't want to 169 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: disrupt anything, but try to understand the scene and and 170 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: out in these environments if very very difficult to conduct 171 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: a thorough assessment. Many times this can only be accomplished 172 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: at them or given the fact that Matthew's body was 173 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: in the woods for a very long extended period of time, 174 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: the there's no way of knowing what his other injuries are, 175 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: is there. There's no way to know if he was beaten. 176 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: All we know is that his body was hacked. Yeah, well, yeah, 177 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: and you can there are certain things sometimes that you 178 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: can pick up on and you know, one of the 179 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: best ways to do an assessment on a body that 180 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: you think has multiple trauma to it um and any 181 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: time i'm you know, I teach corners nationally and one 182 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: of the things that I always teach them if you 183 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: have access to X ray equipment, X ray that body 184 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: in the bag, even before you open a bag, X 185 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: ray that body as soon as you can, from head 186 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: to toe in order to appreciate anything that might be there, 187 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: you know, so that you can go back and interpret 188 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:00,199 Speaker 1: it before the body gets disrupted. And many times your 189 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: observations are compromised to a great degree because the level 190 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: of decomposition. So you you try to assess it as 191 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: best you can from not just you know, an external examination, 192 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: but also visually and photographically. Sometimes you can do photographic enhancement, 193 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: you can certainly do X ray, and then it's at 194 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: that point in time that you can go back and 195 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 1: you can actually uh actually do the the autopsy. Now, 196 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: one of the things that also compromises decomposed bodies that 197 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 1: have injuries like this, particularly this grotesque UH level of injury, 198 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: is that as the body is going through the decompositional cycle, 199 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: many times what's going to happen is that you will 200 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: have UH post mortem animal activity as well as insect activity. 201 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: And believe it or not, these animals and insects actually 202 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 1: disrupt or changed the presentation of the wounds or the 203 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: injuries and that can lead to problems as well. So 204 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: are you going to see, knowing that Matthew is addicted 205 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: to heroin, are we going to see any kind of 206 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: damage remaining on the body because of that? Well, you know, 207 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: that's an excellent question as it applies to IV drug abuse. 208 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: You know, traditionally, one of the things that they talk about, 209 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 1: UM many times are these little grany alomas that come 210 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: up as a result of injection site UM. If you've 211 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: ever seen you know, the old term was railroad tracks. 212 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: You would see people that, say, for instance, inject on 213 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 1: the surface of their forearm right into and here's a 214 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: phantasy term people um, people using medicine, and that's the 215 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: crook of the arm. The crooks of the arms as 216 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: are both referred to as the A c F or 217 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: the incubitable fossa UH. And what we do is we 218 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 1: go into this area and we will literally take our 219 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: gloved hand if we suspect an individual is suffering from 220 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: heroin abuse or IV drug abuse, and we rub our 221 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 1: fingers over the edge of it, even in a postmart examination, 222 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: and you'll feel these little kind of nodular areas. And 223 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: there's any number of reasons why these things pop up. 224 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: Sometimes it will be scar tissue, but other times you'll have, uh, 225 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: this kind of deposition beneath the skin of where people 226 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: have injected with hair win and you know they cut 227 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: hair win with um and other drugs with different types 228 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: of things they'll cut it with like talcum powder or quinine, 229 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: these different things, and they don't necessarily metabolize, and sometimes 230 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: those things get caught up underneath the skin, so you 231 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: get these little rigid mumps um on the surface of 232 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: the skin. People famously, or particularly back in the early 233 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: um seventies, you would see people with complex spiderweb tattoos 234 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: on both of their a cf and sometimes we would 235 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: consider that as coverage for IVY drug abuse because it 236 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: would conceal this area. Of course, in your your eyes 237 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: immediately drawn to to these complex tattoos many times. But 238 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: you know, we have to be very very careful and 239 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: and when you're dealing with a decomposed body, um, it 240 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: even makes it more difficult. One of the most difficult 241 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: cases a death investigator can work is a case involving 242 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: a decomposing body out and was but you know, this 243 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: is an interconnected case. We don't just have one body 244 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: we've got three in total. And when the investigators showed 245 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: up at at the home of Matthew's parents, they walked 246 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: into a very unique scene, didn't they, Jackie. They did. 247 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: It's it's almost overwhelming. Kenneth Lone quest the dad had 248 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,359 Speaker 1: been beaten in the head with a baseball bat repeatedly. 249 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: He was pulled out of his bed, out of a 250 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: of a slumber by these home and invaders, and they 251 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: beat him with a baseball bat to get his information. 252 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: We know that Kenneth's skull was broken into more than 253 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: thirty pieces. Joe yea, it was, And so our listeners 254 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: will understand the next time you've bowled and egg, for instance, 255 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: or if you have access to a bowled egg, And 256 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: this is kind of the way, one of the ways 257 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: that I've taught investigators in the past relative to blunt 258 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: force trauma the head. If you will simply take a 259 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: bold egg of hard bowled egg and crack it one time, 260 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: strike it one time on a firm surface, and then 261 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: turn it where you impacted that egg, that will give 262 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: you an indication of how complex um interlocking, our intercommunicating 263 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: depressed skull fractures can be. And you know it forms 264 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: this kind of very delicate web on the surface of 265 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: the egg. The skull is really no difference dependent upon 266 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: how much force you bring to bear. And one of 267 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: the things that's that's kind of tough for us as 268 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: investigators out in the field and then for the pathologist 269 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: back if the morgue is to be able to delineate 270 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: between well, this is a point of impact. This is 271 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: a point of impact. As you rightly mentioned, the skull 272 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:14,360 Speaker 1: has is multiple fragmentations all over the surface, So it's 273 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 1: you have to try to zero in on what was 274 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,959 Speaker 1: the bull's eye here, and for every bull's eye that 275 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: you can come up with, that's an individual point of impact. 276 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 1: We remember we were talking about Matthew and we talked 277 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: about the level of torture. Okay, um was the torture 278 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 1: involved with his death? Maybe? I mean, what do you 279 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: need to you know, hack somebody over sixty times? The 280 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: same principle here, Uh, you're trying to coerce somebody into 281 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: giving you information. In this case where the keys to 282 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: the safe, because we want access to your guns and 283 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: any other valuables that might be in there. So with 284 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,719 Speaker 1: every strike, maybe the individual is doing this in a 285 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: torturous manner in order to elicit information until they wind 286 00:17:55,520 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: up beating this man to death with, according to witnesses, 287 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: a baseball bat um and the best the pathologist could 288 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: come up with is that it was some type of 289 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: rounded edge weapon that they had used. It wasn't. If 290 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: you think about like a center block that has very 291 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: acute edges to it, it'll leave a specific mark. But 292 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 1: when you're talking about a baseball bat, it's kind of 293 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: rounded and curved um and it's not as well defined 294 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: many times, so you know, with the rounded edge of 295 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: a baseball bat, sometimes it's very difficult to kind of 296 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: um make a specific determination where each impact was. And 297 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: when you're talking about over thirty fragments um, the skull 298 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 1: actually becomes almost like a jigsaw puzzle at that point 299 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: in time, because I have I have opened heads at 300 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: autopsy as an autopsy assistant, and skull literally comes apart 301 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: in my hands, particularly in a in a case that 302 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: consists of this much overkill when you are hit in 303 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: the head or actually anywhere on on your body, your bones. 304 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: But when you're hit in the head, Joe, we think 305 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: of an impact like on a windshield, and we see 306 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: the first impact, and we see all of these little 307 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: breaks and shatter marks, spider webs as you mentioned, that 308 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: radiate out from the hit. Does that happen in the 309 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: skull to or do you just get an automatic break? 310 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: H No, not necessarily a lot of it. It's it's 311 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: completely dependent upon um the type of instrument used. Let's say, 312 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: if you're talking about a wooden bat as opposed to 313 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: a metal bat, and the amount of of energy that's 314 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: that's brought to bear. If you have some very diminutive 315 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 1: person that's that's swinging a baseball bat at a firm 316 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 1: surface like a skull, um, they're not gonna bring as 317 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: much energy to bear. Say, for instance, if you had 318 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: some two pound brute that's swinging it. You know, it 319 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: just makes sense, and so what you will happen. What 320 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: will happen sometimes is that you might have an initial 321 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: underlying fracture on that um that initial contact, but the 322 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: skull doesn't completely fracture at that time. But once that 323 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,199 Speaker 1: area is struck again, the structural integrity of the skull 324 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: is weakened because of an underlying fracture, just be a 325 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: hairline fracture. Now you go back in, you hit that 326 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: area again now it shatters. But of course you can 327 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: have an individual that can swing hard enough sometimes I 328 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: would imagine um that they could cause a depressed skull 329 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: fracture with one blow. However, you've got an individual that 330 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 1: is striking multiple times. So every time that skull is fractured, 331 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: guess what the actual architecture of the surface, the external 332 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,479 Speaker 1: table of the skull and the internal table, it's becoming 333 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: progressively more weak, So it's easier to fracture the skull 334 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: on further strikes. You know, as you go through time, 335 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: you know, you hit it once, you hit it twice, 336 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: and then by the time you know, you work your 337 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: way up to ten times, the whole structural integrity of 338 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,959 Speaker 1: the skull begins to be compromised, and so it's easier 339 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: to fracture after that initial break takes place. So what 340 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: ends up being the cause of death, Joe, Is that 341 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: the breaks in the skull, the bleeding out, the skull 342 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: fragments that impede into the brain itself. What ends up 343 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,719 Speaker 1: being the cause of death. Yeah, again, excellent question, And 344 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: it's a combination. It's a perfect storm, if you will. 345 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:39,439 Speaker 1: Because Um, first off, you rightly mentioned this kind of 346 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: fragmentation the skull and it creates these little shards. The 347 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: shards become like almost like little missiles, and they've got 348 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: real jagged edges. And you've got I don't know that 349 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 1: people understand this, but you've got these little micro vessels 350 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 1: throughout your your brain. And so if you compromise that 351 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: one area that struck, these of sharks go into the brain. 352 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: It goes through the dual which is the sack underlying 353 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: skull that the brain kind of floats around in and 354 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 1: it's a washing in um uh cerebral spinal fluid. It 355 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,400 Speaker 1: breaks through these little micro vessels and it goes into 356 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: the tissue of the brain. Now, that is a survivable injury. 357 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: People have survived that if you can get them to 358 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: the hospital in time. But continuing to strike the head, 359 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: you create more of these. So you've got bleeding. You've 360 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 1: got bleeding within the brain and then in that and 361 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: now you've got bleeding that's escaping in between the brain 362 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: and the surface of the skull. So it's swelling and 363 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: this creates a major problem for the brain. The brain's 364 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: ability to function has been compromised. Not only is it 365 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: bleeding out, now the brain isn't getting sufficient amount of oxygen. 366 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: The brain will essentially shut down as a result of 367 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: oxygen ad blood and this hemorrhage that's going on. One 368 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: other factor that plays into this is that you can 369 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: have coup and contra coup injuries, which is kind of 370 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: where the brain slashes back and forth inside the skull. 371 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: So if you're struck on the right side, the brain 372 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: might travel over to the left side. Remember it's floating 373 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: in this sack, and strike the left side, so you 374 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 1: can get communicating areas of hemorrhage on the opposite side 375 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: of the brain. And so these are like concussive injuries, 376 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: and so it's a perfect storm and the individual will 377 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: eventually lose consciousness and certainly die um if if left unattended, 378 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: and in this attack that was certainly the case. We 379 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: know that Janet Linquest was also beaten with the bat. 380 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 1: Is there any difference between men and women when it 381 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: comes to these kind of injuries? I don't know that 382 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: that it is, uh gender dependent. UM. I think that 383 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: you know, um, women when it comes to their skelptile system. Uh. 384 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: Here's another kind of fantasy term that particularly friends against 385 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 1: apologists like to use. They describe, describe female skeletons as 386 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: being grass aisle and grass all means fine, and they're 387 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: not as robust as male male skeletons. And it's like 388 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 1: if you could take, um, say, somebody was comparing uh 389 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: Jackie Howard Scull to Joseph Scott Morgan skull. You've got 390 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: these kind of fine danny features in your brow line, 391 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: for instance mine, you know, I'm I've kind of got 392 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: let this prominent brow line. And it's just the way 393 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: we're constructed. And so my, my, my skeletal system is 394 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: more robust than yours. So I think that it would probably, 395 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 1: particularly if you've got a big, angry male wielding a 396 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: baseball bat, it's going to take less energy to um 397 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: to kill her as opposed to the husband. Well, in fact, Joe, 398 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: that's not what happened here. Janet was not killed by 399 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: the bat. She was also strangled with a rope. Yeah, 400 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: and that's you know, when you look at this, and 401 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: again I go back to the word that I used earlier, 402 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: the t word torture. You know, not only is she 403 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: sustaining blunt force trauma, but she was also uh garrotted 404 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: as well. Where um a literature was placed around her neck. 405 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: And according to Ruth, who is the step sister in 406 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: this case, that bore witnesses to this and participated in 407 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: this event. Um she saw the male perpetrator have his 408 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 1: foot on Janet's back as she is on the floor, 409 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: pulling up on this rope and attempting to strangulate her 410 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: with this thing. So when you're when you're the pathologist 411 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 1: that's going to do the examination on her body, not 412 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: only do you have to interpret these head stripes that 413 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: she sustained this blunt force trauma you know that we 414 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: talked about earlier, you're also going to have to look 415 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: at her neck very carefully externally because you know, as 416 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 1: all our listeners know, you know, you look for these 417 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: ligature marks on the neck that are these kind of 418 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: deep abraided areas, you know, abrasion you know, like you 419 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: get on your knee, if you call down skin your knee, 420 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 1: you can get these uh in the folds of the neck. 421 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: And one of the things that you're gonna look for 422 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: is the furrow. And this furrow is generated and by 423 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 1: the ligature. And just keep this in mind, the more 424 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: narrow the ligature. Let's say you've got a tiny piece 425 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: of nylon, woven cord or rope very narrow. It's going 426 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: to create a deeper furrow as opposed to say like 427 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: a man's belt, because it's got a wider surface area. 428 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: So if if you're looking at a body that you 429 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 1: suspect has undergone ligature strangulation um and you don't have 430 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: a literature, one of the great clues that's left behind 431 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: on the surface of the neck is this deep, narrow furrow. 432 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: And sometimes if you look very very carefully, you can 433 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: see the pattern of the rope, say for instance, shaped 434 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: almost like a woven or herring bone pattern. If you're 435 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: very careful in your examination and photography, you can pick 436 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: up on that. And why is that important? Well, it's 437 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: important because if you find something that's similar to that 438 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 1: literature in the possession of a suspect, you can first 439 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: match it up visually, and secondly you can test that 440 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: ligature that might not be with the body for the 441 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: victims DNA and also you can test it for the 442 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: DNA of the perpetrator. In that way, you've got this 443 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: this item that would be circumstantial evidence, and you but 444 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: it's very strong, you can say, well, how do you 445 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: explain the fact that her DNA is on the ligature 446 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: and your DNA is in the ligature, and that's something 447 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: that the defense would have to explain away. So that's 448 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: very important in your assessment. And we also are going 449 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: to be looking at the hyghoid bone. You will definitely 450 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,479 Speaker 1: look at the high woid bone in a case like this. 451 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: You know, highwoid, though the line's share of the time 452 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: is almost universally associated with manual strangulation, has nothing to 453 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 1: do most of the time of literature strangulation. Manual strangulation 454 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: means that someone places their bare hands um onto some 455 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: of the surface of someone's neck. And this is the 456 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: trick here with the highoid bone. Highoid bone the first 457 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: office and the only non articulated bone in the body, 458 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: and that means it's not connected to any kind any 459 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: other portion of skeletal system. Is there merely to anchor 460 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: the tongue. It's an odd little bone. Would pathologists describe 461 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: it as a bird like bone. It's kind of shaped 462 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: like a bird um And in manual strangulations it is 463 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: many times found to be fractured. And they would take 464 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: very very good care with her high woid bone to 465 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: kind of take a look at it, look for a 466 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: little local areas of hemorrhage, and also to examine to 467 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: see if it has in fact been practiced fractured. That's 468 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: only going to come about if you apply direct force, 469 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: will pressure and look, it's very high up in the neck. 470 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: If if folks at home will sentially touch their throat 471 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: and find where the atoms apple is, you have to 472 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: go superior. That means above the level of your of 473 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: your atoms apple in order to find the high woid moment. 474 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: That's how how how high it is. And even a 475 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: better way to think about it is think about your tongue. 476 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: Think about how your tongue is anchored in the back 477 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: of your throat. Most people don't sit around and think 478 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: about that sort of thing, you know, leaving somebody like 479 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: me to think about that. But your your tongue is 480 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: actually anchored in the back by this bone, and that 481 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: gives you an idea how high up it is. You know, 482 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: a lot of people make a lot hey over the highoid. 483 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: You know, they think about the only I think, in 484 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: my memory, the only traumatically fractured high oid bone I 485 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: have ever seen over my years. As medical legal death 486 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: investigator that was not associate with manual strangulation, was in 487 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: a car accident and like a nineteen Buick Bonnible that 488 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: went over a three story bridge over the guardrail, impacted 489 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: nose down and the driver actually hit the steering wheel 490 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: with their throat and it fractured that bone. That's the 491 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: only time I've ever seen it outside of manual strangulation. 492 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: I've never seen it in the literature. Stranging. It does happen, 493 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: they tell me, but I've just never seen it. There 494 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: was one other beating in this household, Joe, and that 495 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: was the family dog. The dog was beaten with a 496 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: golf club. So what's going to be the difference in 497 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: the injuries that you're gonna see? Obviously size for one, 498 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: the difference between a baseball bat and a golf club. 499 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: But you're looking at two different elements. Would versus metal. Yeah, 500 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: you're and you know, dependent upon the shape of the 501 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: particular club. For folks that aren't golfers out there, you know, 502 00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: you've got um different types of clubs obviously that people 503 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: carry around the bag. You've got irons, and you've got woods. Woods. 504 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,479 Speaker 1: They're not necessarily woods any longer. They're composite or you know, 505 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: some type of metal head, but they're oddly shaped. And 506 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: I've seen golf club strikes on people and they marry 507 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: up to a very specific pattern because they've got these 508 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: real interesting angles to them. They're not as non specific 509 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: as say, for instance, a baseball bat. Golf clubs are 510 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: very easy to kind of delineate between that and a 511 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,719 Speaker 1: baseball bat or or pipe for instance, because of the 512 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: heads of the club. You know, the head of the 513 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: club is where all of the weight is, and also 514 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: the motion that has to take place with a golf club. 515 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: Remember the shaft on the golf club is you know, 516 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: a third longer essentially than a baseball bat. You know, 517 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: it's you really have to wind up and strike somebody, 518 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: So you would you would have to have an individual 519 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: in a very submissive position, say for instance, down on 520 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: the floor. Um, it would require very long, long back swing, 521 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: if you will, or over the top of the head 522 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: to come down and kind of a chopping motion in 523 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: order to use this thing, because the shaft itself is 524 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,239 Speaker 1: so long, so it's going to compromise your ability to 525 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: deliver an energy as opposed with a baseball bat. You 526 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: can choke up on this thing and you've got such 527 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: weight at the head of it that it can you 528 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: can really debilitate somebody with a very short stroke of 529 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: the baseball bat. So would an investigator look at those 530 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: injuries and know immediately that it was done by something 531 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: that's metal as opposed to would Yeah, perhaps in ideal circumstances, 532 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: but if you're at a scene. Um, again, I go 533 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: back to this idea of it's not the best environment 534 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: to do that assessment because lighting is poor your ability 535 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: to to examine the body in total. Because one of 536 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: the things we do at scenes is that it is 537 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: considered a best practice in medical legal death investigation to 538 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: never remove clothing its scenes because you want to remember, 539 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: most of the time country which see on television, you're 540 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: not gonna have a forensic pathologist at the scene that's 541 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: gonna come out to the scene most of the time 542 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: that it does happen, don't get me wrong, but most 543 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: of the time you're gonna have a medical examiner, investigator, 544 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: a corner investigator is going to go out there and 545 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: do the initial examination on the body. So in those environments, 546 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: they don't want to remove the clothing. So let's say 547 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: that Janet had strikes all over her torso we might 548 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: can lift up her shirt, her nightgown and see these strikes, 549 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: but you're not gonna be able to appreciate them in 550 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: detail like you will be able to when you get 551 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: the body back to the morgue and you have time 552 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: to spend with the body, do the X rays, and 553 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: then you dress the body under these intense lights. You know, 554 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: for those who have never been in an autopsy suite, 555 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: it's it's like going in surgery. You know, these lights 556 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: in an ideal surgery suite or an ideal autopsy suite. 557 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: The lights are searchable. Lights are very very intense, so 558 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: that we can pick up on fine d telling this environment. 559 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: You know, in a case where you've got multiple blunt 560 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 1: force trauma, you've got um two people that have suddenly, 561 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: you know, just been awakened in the middle of the night. Uh, 562 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: there's so much going on in this environment under normal 563 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: if you want to call it normal circumstances. Jackie, you 564 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: introduced the element of fire into this environment, and it 565 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: just makes her total and complete chaos. One of the 566 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: things that is particularly disturbing about this case is that 567 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 1: we find that Janet had smoke in her lungs she 568 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 1: had in smoke. Her husband had not, which means he 569 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: was dead before the fire was set. She was not. Yeah, 570 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: and that's that's one of the major things that we 571 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: look for, um, when we're talking about structural fire where 572 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 1: we have bodies in the environment. You know, you pose 573 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: this question, and I'm using you in the universal sense 574 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: as an investigator, you're thinking, you know that what you're 575 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 1: thinking about the origin of the fire, you're thinking, I 576 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: think for me, I'm thinking of the purpose of the 577 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: fire is to fire a purposed event or is it 578 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: something that just spontaneously occurred? Um, you know, And here 579 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: here's the thing. When you go into an environment, I 580 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: would I'd be willing to bet you dollars to donuts. 581 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: When you're looking at this, at this scene as an 582 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: investigator and you've got this fully involved house fire, you're 583 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:57,800 Speaker 1: not thinking necessarily that this is some type of homicide. 584 00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: You're thinking that you've got two poor souls that died 585 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: as there was halt of a house fire. But you know, 586 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: our our mantra and medical legal death investigation, and people 587 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: need to understand this is that I don't care how 588 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: old you are, I don't care how infirmed you are. 589 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: I don't care what kind of in dwelling medical processes 590 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: you have. Every death is a homicide until proven otherwise. 591 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: And this is why, because if you walk into a 592 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: scene like this in a house that has been fully 593 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: involved in flame, and you just say, well, you know, 594 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,839 Speaker 1: it's probably an accident, You're gonna miss the bigger picture here. 595 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: You have to assume these people died under nefarious circumstances, 596 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 1: under suspicious circumstances, because if you don't, if you don't 597 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: make that assumption going on, you're gonna miss something. And 598 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,479 Speaker 1: in this case, it would appear that you know, after 599 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,359 Speaker 1: the bodies had been examined, that they determined that there 600 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: was trauma that was not related to the fire. And 601 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: you mentioned sit in the airway, And when we examined 602 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: bodies at autopsy, one of the things that we'll do 603 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 1: is that we'll take a very close look at the airway. 604 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: And when I say airway, we do look at the lungs, 605 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: but I'm talking about just the throat um, the trachea. 606 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 1: For instance, when we open the track and we begin 607 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: to look at what you'll see in people that have 608 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,879 Speaker 1: actually inhalated, are breathed in fire debris is you'll see 609 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: little flex along the way, all on the surface. And 610 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: here's another thing that people don't think about, and this 611 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: is why it's so horrific. You'll notice that there is 612 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: in dwelling inflammation on the mucous surfaces of the trachea 613 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 1: and the airway. And the reason is is that these people, 614 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,879 Speaker 1: these poor people, are breathing hot, super super superheated air 615 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: and it's literally scorching, scorching these these very tender membranes 616 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: in there. So you'll see the fire debris, little flex 617 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,800 Speaker 1: of burn debris that are coming about, little flex of soot, 618 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: and then you'll see this inflammation that's taking place. Whereas 619 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 1: if an individual was deceased prior to the fire, none 620 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: to that it's going to present. And that's just logical, um, 621 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:07,399 Speaker 1: because they're not breathing argo, they're not inhalating anything that's 622 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,759 Speaker 1: been created by this fire and this environment. As you 623 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: and I discussed this case before we went to broadcast, Joe, 624 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,919 Speaker 1: you taught me something new again. I had asked you, 625 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: when a body was destroyed by fire like this, how 626 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: do you still know about the brakes? And then you 627 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:31,879 Speaker 1: brought up breaks caused by a fire. What is that? Yeah, yeah, 628 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 1: we have something that's actually called heat fractures. Isn't this interesting? 629 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,360 Speaker 1: This is something we it seems like we always cycled 630 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: by our circle back to this on body bags. You know, 631 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,800 Speaker 1: we've talked about heat as it relates to the speeding 632 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 1: up of the decompositional process. Um, we've talked about heat 633 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,959 Speaker 1: as it applies remember expanding gas. We started talking about 634 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: superheated gas when we're talking about gunfire related events, and 635 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 1: now here we are talking about um superheated environments relative 636 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: to fire desks and what happens. UM. Bone has a 637 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: certain level of tolerance uh to heat obviously, just just 638 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: about like anything does on in our world. And so 639 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 1: when when bone attains a specific heat because of the 640 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: environmental events that are going on around it in this 641 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 1: case of house fire, uh, the bone actually the heat 642 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: causes the bone to fracture, and you can see it 643 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,399 Speaker 1: throughout most of the skeletal system. But it again, we're 644 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: back to the skull. It really really presents in the skull. 645 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: So when we reflect back, and you know, we begin 646 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 1: to think about poor Kenneth that was beaten so many times, 647 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: the skulls fractured not only is the pathologists going to 648 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,359 Speaker 1: be looking at these impact fractures that are taking place. 649 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 1: They're gonna have to delineate between those and what might 650 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: have been a heat related fracture. Because once once the 651 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 1: heat in this environment, you know, jumps up above five degrees, 652 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: you can get this, uh, these events that occur with 653 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: the with the bone where the bone literally begins to 654 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: kind of crack apart, and it's a real interesting kind 655 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 1: of manifestation, and it makes it all that it kicks 656 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: it up another level when you begin to try to 657 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 1: conduct your assessment, you know, is what I'm looking looking 658 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 1: at something called what we refer to as heat artifact 659 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,319 Speaker 1: or is this um injury artifact, you know, And so 660 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: you have to be able to kind of uh parts 661 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 1: that out if you will, and try to understand it. 662 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: Because listen, we can talk about this from a science 663 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 1: standpoint all day long, but when a trial like this 664 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 1: goes to court, the lawyers, the attorneys that are both 665 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: prosecuting and defending this cause, they're gonna want to know 666 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,759 Speaker 1: those answers because again we go back to this idea 667 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 1: of torture. We go back to this idea of bringing 668 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,839 Speaker 1: about the death of an individual what is it? How 669 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: what's the sequencing of these events? And many times um 670 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: that has to be very finally examined and explained before 671 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 1: the court. So how is an emmy, a pathologist and 672 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 1: investigator going to be able to distinguish between a blunt 673 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 1: force injury and a fire fracture. Yeah, well, with the 674 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 1: blunt force trauma. One of the things that we're looking 675 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:18,919 Speaker 1: for this blunt force kind of remember we talked about 676 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,800 Speaker 1: the egg kind of shattering. One of the things that 677 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: we're gonna be looking at there is that you'll get 678 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,920 Speaker 1: these kind of multiple spiderweb fractures that kind of extend 679 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 1: out and you'll have one central kind of bull's eye 680 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,400 Speaker 1: that takes place where like with a baseball bat. And 681 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't happen in every case, but most of the 682 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: time you'll get this kind of radiating fractures that go 683 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,879 Speaker 1: out from it like spiderweb. With a heat fracture. First off, 684 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: the bone is gonna be very very dry because all 685 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,320 Speaker 1: the waters being absorbed out and it kind of cracks, 686 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:46,759 Speaker 1: if you will. It will look completely different than a 687 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: depressed skull fracture. And when I say depresskull fracture, that 688 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: comes about as a result of bludgeoning, the skull actually 689 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 1: fractures and depresses. It goes down, it creates kind of 690 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: a um, not really a hole, but it eats a 691 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 1: depressed area on that surface. The heat fracture just kind 692 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: of travels along the surface of what's called the external 693 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: table of skull and then it just kind of splits. 694 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 1: So that's one of the things that's one of the 695 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 1: key factors will be looking at along the way here. 696 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 1: And also, is there any kind of in dwelling hemorrhage 697 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: that you can appreciate in the bone and if that 698 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,920 Speaker 1: is existent, you're gonna know that that's probably an anti 699 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,800 Speaker 1: mortem event at this court prior to death, whereas the 700 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 1: heat fracture course is gonna occur after death. So for 701 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,799 Speaker 1: a body to be decimated by fire, there has to 702 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: be a consistent heat source at a very high temperature. 703 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 1: If you're just setting a house on fire and leaving, 704 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,319 Speaker 1: is it going to be the same thing. Yeah, You're 705 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,359 Speaker 1: you're going to have to first off, make sure that 706 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,960 Speaker 1: you've got to supply of oxygen um, that you have 707 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,759 Speaker 1: an ability to create fire. You know, some people do 708 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: it with matches, some people do it with flares. Uh, 709 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 1: some people do it with electricity. I mean, there's any 710 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,480 Speaker 1: number of ways that people do. Then you have to 711 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 1: have something that's kind of going to flash over, if 712 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: you will, an accelerant that's going to be kind of 713 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: the primer that's gonna get the ball rolling once you 714 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:11,759 Speaker 1: once you put flame to it. And then you have 715 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: to have the heat source, you know, bodies, or you 716 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 1: have to have a fuel source. And unfortunately, bodies are 717 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,800 Speaker 1: generally not great heat sources. Um are let me rephrase 718 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,760 Speaker 1: that bodies are not great fuel sources. UM. It takes 719 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 1: you know, even and we've talked about this previously on 720 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 1: body backs, UM, even with cremations. You know, cremations. You know, 721 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 1: we're taking eighteen hundred degrees and for a sustained period 722 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,920 Speaker 1: of time with a natural gas supply. UM. What happens 723 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,759 Speaker 1: is as the building the structure and this how in 724 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 1: this case like a house fire, as the structure begins 725 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:51,280 Speaker 1: to collapse, UM, that becomes your fuel and the body 726 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: is essentially laying among this debreed that's burning. So it 727 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:59,239 Speaker 1: takes a while for this to happen. And you know, 728 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,879 Speaker 1: we talked about sit in the airway relative to fire. 729 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 1: One of the things that We also look for is 730 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 1: um at a scene to kind of make a determination 731 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: or fire investigators do is like, for instance, the area, say, 732 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:13,960 Speaker 1: if you're laying on a carpet, its surface or the 733 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: victim is, you're gonna take up that carpet. Also, if 734 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,360 Speaker 1: there's in clothing remaining, you're gonna take up the clothing 735 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 1: and this will be sent to the crime lab and 736 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 1: it will be tested. And kind of an interesting thing 737 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:27,239 Speaker 1: we do in the more that people might not be 738 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,880 Speaker 1: aware of is that when any kind of clothing, no 739 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,840 Speaker 1: matter how charred it is, we will take that clothing 740 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: off of a body. And if people just imagine a 741 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,759 Speaker 1: gigantic silver paint can in their mind, because that's specifically 742 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:40,759 Speaker 1: what it looks like, we take the clothing and we 743 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: drop it into the paint can seal the lid. It's 744 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: pressed down, its seals. You let it sit for a 745 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: while for several days. And the most interesting thing happens 746 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,960 Speaker 1: from a chemical standpoint, if there has been accelerant like 747 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,440 Speaker 1: gas Laner Carosen has been used and said clothing was saturated, 748 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,960 Speaker 1: even if they were subjected to fire, the remnant of 749 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,839 Speaker 1: those fumes from that accelerant, guess what they do they 750 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,319 Speaker 1: rise to the top, they rise to the top, out 751 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,319 Speaker 1: of that clothing, to the top of that can, and 752 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 1: then a big needle is inserted into the top of 753 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,520 Speaker 1: that can and that air is drawn off, and then 754 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:25,799 Speaker 1: the air is placed into laboratory equipment, uh a gas 755 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:31,880 Speaker 1: chromatic chromatograph actually, and we get these little readouts that 756 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: tell him, tell us specifically what agent was used. Everything 757 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,040 Speaker 1: has a very specific chemical signature, you know, give us 758 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,719 Speaker 1: an idea as to what agent was used as the accelerant. 759 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,400 Speaker 1: And again another great piece of evidence, because if you 760 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: can put that gas can or that particular type of 761 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,720 Speaker 1: gas or agent into the hand of a perpetrator, sometimes 762 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,280 Speaker 1: you can get slam dunk. Investigators did get a slam 763 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,320 Speaker 1: dunk in this case. Joe Sergio Korea will be in 764 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,840 Speaker 1: prison for the rest of his life. Ruth Correa was 765 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,160 Speaker 1: sentenced to forty years. She accepted a plea deal for 766 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:10,760 Speaker 1: testifying against her brother. Such a very sad case. Horrible 767 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,239 Speaker 1: that the life of this family has been so disrupted 768 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:15,840 Speaker 1: and destroyed. But at least these people are off the street. 769 00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,720 Speaker 1: M Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body backs