1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,680
Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

2
00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:06,359
Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

3
00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,440
Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

4
00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,280
Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

5
00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,800
Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

6
00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:17,720
Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

7
00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,520
Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

8
00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,239
Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions.

9
00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,440
Speaker 2: This is the beginning of the podcast, I'm sure.

10
00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:31,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm James, and this is it.

11
00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,000
Speaker 2: Could happen here today. We are going to be talking

12
00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,800
Speaker 2: about the recent events that have happened in Palestine and

13
00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,760
Speaker 2: the recent acts of terror that the IDEF has committed

14
00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,600
Speaker 2: against Palestinians. So yeah, thanks for joining me, James, I

15
00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:47,239
Speaker 2: appreciate it.

16
00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's going to be another fun one from us.

17
00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:52,559
Speaker 4: I know. I think that's like our thing. It's just

18
00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:54,400
Speaker 4: uplifting podcasts.

19
00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:56,520
Speaker 2: If they don't leave depressed, we're not doing our job, right.

20
00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,760
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, if you're driving, maybe pulevi because we're going

21
00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:00,720
Speaker 3: to try make you cry.

22
00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, but no really, I mean, like, in all seriousness,

23
00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,560
Speaker 2: there has been some shocking footage that has come out

24
00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,040
Speaker 2: of Palestine this month. On April fifth, in particular, there

25
00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,920
Speaker 2: was footage that emerged from a luxA mosque, which is

26
00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:17,480
Speaker 2: the third holiest site in Islam, and it is within

27
00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,479
Speaker 2: occupied East Jerusalem. The compound is within that area, and

28
00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,800
Speaker 2: the videos are showing Israeli security forces mercilessly beating Palestinian

29
00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:30,240
Speaker 2: worshippers and that violence left at least twelve Palestinians injured

30
00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,720
Speaker 2: and obviously just fueled more public anger, and three of

31
00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:35,480
Speaker 2: those Palestinians had to go to the hospital.

32
00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:40,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if people haven't seen the videos, like you

33
00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,280
Speaker 3: don't have to watch them really, but it's pretty horrific.

34
00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,120
Speaker 3: Like we were just talking before we started about how

35
00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,840
Speaker 3: monstrous you have to be, like to stand there and

36
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:52,960
Speaker 3: whack someone with a stick again and again and again,

37
00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,920
Speaker 3: especially when they're not particularly any threat to you other

38
00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:58,880
Speaker 3: than you know, you perceive their existence to the threat

39
00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:03,680
Speaker 3: to your state project. Yeah, and they're just trying to

40
00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:04,600
Speaker 3: go to the mosque.

41
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, they literally just there there, there, there's no weapons,

42
00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,520
Speaker 2: They're trying to pray. They're praying, and yeah, I feel

43
00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,400
Speaker 2: like prayer is a very vulnerable state to be in,

44
00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,120
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like it's not it's kind

45
00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,520
Speaker 2: of like, I don't know's it was just really upsetting.

46
00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:22,880
Speaker 2: And and you're right about the dehumanization thing, because we

47
00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:24,720
Speaker 2: were because a gun would make it so much easier

48
00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:29,080
Speaker 2: to kill someone, right, But to purposely injure someone with

49
00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,640
Speaker 2: your own hands, I think is us for sure.

50
00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:34,440
Speaker 3: I think maybe it's when a lot of people in

51
00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:36,920
Speaker 3: America at least, like it was very formative to me

52
00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,359
Speaker 3: the first time I saw a cop fucking battering someone

53
00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,880
Speaker 3: with a stick, you know. And I think if a

54
00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,160
Speaker 3: lot of people in America maybe had that experience firsthand

55
00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,080
Speaker 3: a couple of years ago, and it maybe changed their

56
00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:52,440
Speaker 3: perspective on things. But yeah, this is what colonialism does everywhere, right,

57
00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,600
Speaker 3: And it's that what's happening here and in Ramadan as well, right.

58
00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,840
Speaker 2: Like yeah, and this is kind of like a trend,

59
00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,239
Speaker 2: like there's no excuse for doing and people always try

60
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,680
Speaker 2: to point fingers about like who's the bad guy here?

61
00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:09,400
Speaker 2: But on the other side, rockets were fired from Gaza

62
00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,400
Speaker 2: and Lebanon as a warning sign after this escalation happened.

63
00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,239
Speaker 2: It was literally a warning like please don't do this,

64
00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,840
Speaker 2: this is wrong. But Israel didn't listen, and the following

65
00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,960
Speaker 2: day Israel repeated the violent attack on Hada'maschetif, which is

66
00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,000
Speaker 2: what Arabs call that compound. It's also called Temple Mount

67
00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,440
Speaker 2: for the people of Jewish faith. And yeah, they and

68
00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,880
Speaker 2: then as that was happening, the following day, Israel carried

69
00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,720
Speaker 2: out air raids on Gaza and Lebanon. So not only

70
00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:39,720
Speaker 2: did they not heed the warning, it was like a

71
00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,920
Speaker 2: slap in the face. And I'm going to talk a

72
00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:44,960
Speaker 2: little bit about the experience that some people had in

73
00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,840
Speaker 2: Gaza from this, but that's a little bit later. But

74
00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:49,760
Speaker 2: I just want to like put that out there that

75
00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,200
Speaker 2: when people are like, oh Hamas or whatever, they fired rockets,

76
00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,120
Speaker 2: It's like, what do you what do you expect people

77
00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,240
Speaker 2: push in a corner to do? I just that's what

78
00:03:58,280 --> 00:03:59,560
Speaker 2: I always think about.

79
00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,440
Speaker 3: I don't know, Well, yeah, and if harmasafis rockets sort of,

80
00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:05,800
Speaker 3: you know, does that mean everyone should be collectively punished?

81
00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:07,760
Speaker 3: Like you shouldn't be able to practice your faith now?

82
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,119
Speaker 3: Like that that's that doesn't make any fucking sense. And like, yeah,

83
00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,800
Speaker 3: how do you react if you've seen your grandmother beaten

84
00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,760
Speaker 3: with a fucking stick at church or synagogue, on mask

85
00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,120
Speaker 3: wherever you go. Especially Yeah, like during Ramadan at a

86
00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,600
Speaker 3: time when like this particular place on earth has got

87
00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,480
Speaker 3: like that all the Abrahmic faiths are like looking at

88
00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,120
Speaker 3: this place and trying to do their religious stuff there,

89
00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,080
Speaker 3: and like I'm not a particularly religious guy, but surely

90
00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,400
Speaker 3: there's no religion which way, like the thing you should

91
00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:38,279
Speaker 3: be doing at your Holy days is beaten people with

92
00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:38,680
Speaker 3: a stick.

93
00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, like even if you're not a Muslim, that that

94
00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,880
Speaker 2: area is still really sacred to both Christians and Jewish people,

95
00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,640
Speaker 2: and you would think that Jews wouldn't want to be

96
00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,480
Speaker 2: horrific on that area in general, you know what I mean.

97
00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,480
Speaker 2: Like it's yeah, it's just like even even if that

98
00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,480
Speaker 2: little area is not particular sacred to you, like it's

99
00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,720
Speaker 2: still all sacred in my opinion, and I feel like

100
00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:04,600
Speaker 2: people forget that.

101
00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:10,200
Speaker 3: I don't know, Yeah, it takes a real like it's

102
00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,760
Speaker 3: an interesting sirrong word. It's the juxtaposition of these sacred

103
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:15,920
Speaker 3: spaces and then it's incredible, like it's somewhere I've been

104
00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,839
Speaker 3: when I was younger, and like all around that part

105
00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,680
Speaker 3: of Jerusalem or around Drews, my guess, is juxtaposition of

106
00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,839
Speaker 3: like sacred spaces, which is supposed to be peaceful and

107
00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:30,880
Speaker 3: calm and reflective and then people doing the violence of colonialism,

108
00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:35,520
Speaker 3: like right there, and it's just such a profound kind

109
00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,640
Speaker 3: of whiplash every time you move from one to the other.

110
00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,560
Speaker 2: And yeah, because they're the extremes of both. It's like

111
00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,120
Speaker 2: one of the most sacred and one of the most violent.

112
00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,599
Speaker 2: It's not there's no like wishy washiness about it. But

113
00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,720
Speaker 2: let me continue, Okay, So after this happened, the Arab

114
00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,760
Speaker 2: League held an emergency meeting to discuss these air raids.

115
00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,520
Speaker 2: And just in case you don't know, the Arab League

116
00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,000
Speaker 2: is a regional organization in the Arab world. It has

117
00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,039
Speaker 2: twenty two members, but Syria hasn't been a member since

118
00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,960
Speaker 2: twenty eleven. That could be another episode another time, but

119
00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:07,960
Speaker 2: that's what the Arab League is, in case someone out

120
00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:12,160
Speaker 2: there needed a refresher. But the League condemned the attack,

121
00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,520
Speaker 2: and it said in a statement that quote the extremist

122
00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,600
Speaker 2: approaches that control the policy of the Israeli government will

123
00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,040
Speaker 2: lead to widespread confrontations with the Palestinians if they are

124
00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:25,200
Speaker 2: not put to an end. And at least four hundred

125
00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,479
Speaker 2: Palestinians were arrested on Wednesday of April fifth when this happened,

126
00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,840
Speaker 2: and they remain in Israeli custody. They're being held at

127
00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:36,280
Speaker 2: a police station and occupied East Jerusalem for no reason.

128
00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:38,640
Speaker 2: It's never really for a reason. It's very rare.

129
00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:39,839
Speaker 5: That's for a reason.

130
00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:45,239
Speaker 2: But yeah, Palestinian witnesses said Israeli forces use excessive force,

131
00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,400
Speaker 2: including stun grenades and tear gas, causing suffocation injuries to

132
00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,159
Speaker 2: the worshippers and then beating them with batons and rifles.

133
00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,200
Speaker 2: There was a twenty four year old student who has

134
00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,280
Speaker 2: attained beca Oeis and he said, we were conducting Ichtikaf,

135
00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,600
Speaker 2: which is the really religious Muslim worship that is reserved

136
00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,960
Speaker 2: for Ramadan, is very sacred, and he said we were

137
00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:10,240
Speaker 2: conducting Ictigaf at the Aluxa because it's Ramadan. The army

138
00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,559
Speaker 2: broke the upper windows of the mosque and began throwing

139
00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:14,720
Speaker 2: stunt grenades at us. They made us slide down on

140
00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:16,960
Speaker 2: the ground and they handcuffed us one by one and

141
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,560
Speaker 2: took us all out. They kept swearing at us during

142
00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,320
Speaker 2: this time. It was very barbaric. And then an elderly

143
00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,880
Speaker 2: woman said, according to this reporter, she was like catching

144
00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,560
Speaker 2: her breath outside and in tears and she said, I

145
00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:32,840
Speaker 2: was sitting on a chair reciting in the Quran. They

146
00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,160
Speaker 2: hurled stun grenades and one of them hit my chest.

147
00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,320
Speaker 2: And this is like, there's no discrimination, you know what

148
00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,760
Speaker 2: I mean. It's not there's no discrimination to their hate.

149
00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,280
Speaker 2: Everyone and is under the same umbrella. If they're Palestinians,

150
00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:45,920
Speaker 2: if they're Muslims, it doesn't matter.

151
00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can't be like using taar gas selectively in

152
00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:52,400
Speaker 3: a place of worship. But that's not how that worked.

153
00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,600
Speaker 3: You kind of break windows and throwing ta gas. By definition,

154
00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,120
Speaker 3: you're targeting every single person there for the crime of

155
00:07:58,160 --> 00:07:58,800
Speaker 3: being there.

156
00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no excuse of like we we were shooting

157
00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:04,080
Speaker 2: back at shooters, you know what I mean, that's not

158
00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:09,040
Speaker 2: an excuse or they could use. It's like you're infiltrating

159
00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:13,480
Speaker 2: a place where people are literally trying to pray, Like

160
00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:15,120
Speaker 2: there's no there's no.

161
00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,160
Speaker 3: Excuse, like old ladies, you haven't eaten all day, Yeah,

162
00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,240
Speaker 3: I had a drink of water. They're not like and

163
00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,320
Speaker 3: you shouldn't be threatened by those people, like yeah, but

164
00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,560
Speaker 3: if their existence as Muslims in the place that you

165
00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:28,320
Speaker 3: don't think they should be allowed to exist, it's threatening

166
00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:34,640
Speaker 3: to you then because you're doing a colonialism.

167
00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're I mean, you're the bad guid in

168
00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:42,000
Speaker 2: the situation in this case. And the Palestinian Red Cross

169
00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,640
Speaker 2: said that Israeli forces prevented medics from reaching the mosque.

170
00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,480
Speaker 2: And this has happened before. As James mentioned to me

171
00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,280
Speaker 2: before the podcast, it's like a very typical characteristic thing

172
00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,199
Speaker 2: of the IDF to block paramedics or aid to come

173
00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:56,840
Speaker 2: help people.

174
00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, people want to look more at like a podcast alumni.

175
00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,280
Speaker 3: Tarik has done a lot of first aid working Gaza

176
00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,320
Speaker 3: and he's written about it on his medium page. I'll

177
00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,400
Speaker 3: find a link and we'll put it in our sources. Yes, please,

178
00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,680
Speaker 3: you can see some first hand accounts of how difficult

179
00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,439
Speaker 3: it is to like again, right that I don't really

180
00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,240
Speaker 3: see how you could find it objectionable to help someone

181
00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,480
Speaker 3: who's been hurt. Yeah, but yeah, it seems to be

182
00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,400
Speaker 3: a recurrent thing. Yeah, it's it is.

183
00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,640
Speaker 2: And what I always find amusing is Israel's statements after

184
00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,240
Speaker 2: things like this happen. They're always so comical and so stupid.

185
00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,720
Speaker 2: And this time they said when the police entered, stones

186
00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,640
Speaker 2: were thrown at them and fireworks were fired from inside

187
00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,800
Speaker 2: the mosque by a large group of agitators. It also

188
00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,400
Speaker 2: said that a police officer was wounded in the leg,

189
00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,480
Speaker 2: like womp, womp, are you kidding me? Like, I don't

190
00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 2: care about his fucking leg. I don't like they always

191
00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:59,160
Speaker 2: mentioned stones. I'm so tired of them mentioning stones and rocks,

192
00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,760
Speaker 2: like shut up, no, it's time for army at the

193
00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,199
Speaker 2: Middle East. And it's like they hurled stones at us,

194
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:06,920
Speaker 2: like fuck off.

195
00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:09,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, you have the fucking iron dome and a kid

196
00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,240
Speaker 3: has thrown us a rock at you, like and like

197
00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,319
Speaker 3: that's the stone thing in particular. I don't know why that.

198
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,240
Speaker 3: It's something the Border patrol use a lot when they

199
00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,600
Speaker 3: kill people at the border right through a stone, Like

200
00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,959
Speaker 3: it's this is a commonality of training between these two organizations, right,

201
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:29,000
Speaker 3: but like, yeah, what you also like when we entered

202
00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,400
Speaker 3: the mosques and people threw stones at us, like what

203
00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,319
Speaker 3: were you fucking doing in the masque? Like why were

204
00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:34,800
Speaker 3: you there?

205
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,880
Speaker 2: Like and I'll get into the rules later, but there

206
00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,240
Speaker 2: are very specific times because this place is sacred to

207
00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,920
Speaker 2: so many people, there are specific times for each faith

208
00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,960
Speaker 2: to enter and use the compound, and so they weren't

209
00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,280
Speaker 2: supposed to be there and they were beating people to

210
00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,720
Speaker 2: make way for Jewish people to enter and have their time.

211
00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,600
Speaker 2: But that's not the way to do it. And I'm

212
00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,160
Speaker 2: pretty sure they weren't supposed to be there at that time.

213
00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,600
Speaker 2: But I mentioned this in a previous episode. The government

214
00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,520
Speaker 2: is more far right than ever, and so the nationalists

215
00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,720
Speaker 2: that are like encouraging violence are usually the ones that

216
00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:15,319
Speaker 2: are succeeding. In response to this, Jordan, and Jordan acts

217
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,920
Speaker 2: as a custodian of Jerusalem's Christian and Muslim holy sites.

218
00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,719
Speaker 2: This is under a status quot agreement that has been

219
00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,439
Speaker 2: in place since the nineteen sixty seven war. They condemned

220
00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,560
Speaker 2: the flagrant storming of the compound and then Egypt they

221
00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,880
Speaker 2: called for an immediate halt to Israel's blatant assault on

222
00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,200
Speaker 2: XA Worshipper's But other than that, there hasn't been much.

223
00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,400
Speaker 2: Like the US said was like, I think I don't

224
00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,480
Speaker 2: know the exact quote that anyone in the US said,

225
00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,840
Speaker 2: but I'm sure they were like, oh no, this shouldn't happen,

226
00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:49,040
Speaker 2: and then they move on. It's never really any kind

227
00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:53,760
Speaker 2: of helpful action or reprimand or anything.

228
00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. One from Koreine Jean Pierre, which is we urge

229
00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:01,719
Speaker 3: all sides to avoid further escalation, which why was this

230
00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,199
Speaker 3: Why do you even bother saying shit when you like,

231
00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,319
Speaker 3: don't escalate when they come into your moscue and tea?

232
00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,000
Speaker 3: I guess you would throw stung grenades at you, Like

233
00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:10,160
Speaker 3: what are they supposed to do?

234
00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,480
Speaker 6: Like sincombay a, Yeah, well so why it's like, it's

235
00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:16,240
Speaker 6: like the same situation we had a couple of years

236
00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,640
Speaker 6: ago where you have the police that are in swat

237
00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:23,520
Speaker 6: gear and fully armed with people that aren't and you're

238
00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,200
Speaker 6: saying like this both sides thing like both sides shouldn't

239
00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:28,719
Speaker 6: do violence.

240
00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,760
Speaker 2: Or escalate or whatever. And I think it's so stupid

241
00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,560
Speaker 2: when that happens, because there's a clear aggressor and a

242
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:39,640
Speaker 2: clear victim in that situation. But as I mentioned earlier,

243
00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,480
Speaker 2: Palestinians see a luxamosque as one of the few national

244
00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:48,199
Speaker 2: symbols over which they retain some element of control. They are, however,

245
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,440
Speaker 2: fearful of a slow encroachment by Jewish groups, and this

246
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,200
Speaker 2: is what happened at the Ibrahimi Mosque, which is also

247
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,160
Speaker 2: called the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, and in

248
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,640
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven half of them was turned into a synagogue.

249
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,360
Speaker 2: So Palestinians are worried about that happening again. And they

250
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,600
Speaker 2: are also worried about far right Israeli movements that want

251
00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,240
Speaker 2: to demolish the Islamic structures in elkximosqu and build a

252
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:13,560
Speaker 2: Jewish temple in their place.

253
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:14,360
Speaker 4: So it's not just.

254
00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,160
Speaker 2: Like rumors of this happening. There are nationalists in the

255
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,960
Speaker 2: far right government and the people that they follow that

256
00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,480
Speaker 2: want that to happen. And by now it is quite

257
00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:27,000
Speaker 2: clear that American efforts to prevent another escalation in Palestine

258
00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:31,199
Speaker 2: is failing, and it's not the Palestinian side that's responsible.

259
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,760
Speaker 2: Prime Minister and Yahoo, his desperate bid to cling to

260
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,400
Speaker 2: power is not conducive to any de escalation that anyone

261
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:44,760
Speaker 2: can ever encourage. All he's doing is accelerating the process

262
00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,920
Speaker 2: of violence and triggering instability, not just in East Jerusalem

263
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,240
Speaker 2: but like all over the state of Palestine. And Okay,

264
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,040
Speaker 2: before we move on, let's take our first break before

265
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:59,160
Speaker 2: I forget BRB. We are back. I ended the last

266
00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:03,080
Speaker 2: segment talking about how the US diplomacy is failing an

267
00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:07,079
Speaker 2: understatement of the century. But for more than a year now,

268
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,959
Speaker 2: the tensions and occupied Palestine territories have been very high.

269
00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,080
Speaker 2: The arned Palestinian resistance has been active, especially in Jenin

270
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,480
Speaker 2: and Nablus, and Israeli security forces have carried out incessant

271
00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:23,080
Speaker 2: violent raids of Palestinian towns and villages. I said it's

272
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,760
Speaker 2: in a previous episode, but the UN called twenty twenty

273
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,560
Speaker 2: two the deadliest year for the occupied West Bank in

274
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,120
Speaker 2: the past sixteen years, and these rarely Army killed at

275
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,360
Speaker 2: least one hundred and seventy Palestinians, including thirty children, and

276
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,360
Speaker 2: injured at least nine thousand people. The first two months

277
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,640
Speaker 2: of this year have been the most violent since the

278
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,840
Speaker 2: year two thousand, with sixty five Palestinians killed, including thirteen children.

279
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,760
Speaker 2: This year, the Muslim holy month of Ramadan coincides with

280
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:55,040
Speaker 2: the Jewish holiday of Passover. Hadamashadif Aka Temple Mount is significant,

281
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,200
Speaker 2: as I said, for both Muslims and Jews. Muslims believe

282
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,400
Speaker 2: it's the place where Muhammad ascended to heaven, and the

283
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:06,160
Speaker 2: Jewish people believe that it's the site of two biblical temples. Regardless,

284
00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,720
Speaker 2: it contains the Aluxamos currently and it's been there since

285
00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,200
Speaker 2: ten thirty five a d. And it's again the third

286
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:18,640
Speaker 2: holyest site for Muslims and an incredibly sacred place for

287
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,640
Speaker 2: prayer and worship. It's I'm sure there's like an energy there.

288
00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:24,400
Speaker 2: Like I'm not religious, but I kind of feel that

289
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,880
Speaker 2: energy sometimes where like everyone thinks or believes in a

290
00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,280
Speaker 2: place and it becomes important just as a place. It

291
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,200
Speaker 2: doesn't even need to be explained, I think in general.

292
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,360
Speaker 2: And maybe I'm biased because I was raised Muslim, but

293
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,600
Speaker 2: still I think it's silly to pretend that this is

294
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,280
Speaker 2: at this current point in time, like there's a reason

295
00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,880
Speaker 2: for them not to be there, or there's a reason

296
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,240
Speaker 2: for like a synagogue to be built instead.

297
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,960
Speaker 3: Like I think it's just so stupid.

298
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,000
Speaker 2: My vocabulary isn't expansive enough to actually describe how you feel,

299
00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:58,720
Speaker 2: but you know what I mean.

300
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's yeah, And it's such a barbarous thing to

301
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,320
Speaker 3: do to take this thing and like to destroy it

302
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,520
Speaker 3: that's so special to literally.

303
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:08,360
Speaker 4: More than a billion people.

304
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and be like now fuck you, like we have

305
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,400
Speaker 3: more guns, so we're doing our thing now.

306
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:13,640
Speaker 4: Yeah.

307
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,040
Speaker 2: And it was correctly speculated because of this coincision of

308
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,360
Speaker 2: Ramadan and Passover that it would be a potential flashpoint

309
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,760
Speaker 2: for violence, and two regional meetings were held under United

310
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:29,440
Speaker 2: States supervision to hope to preclude any major escalations from

311
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:35,960
Speaker 2: this time, and it didn't work obviously. On February twenty sixth, Palestinian, Israeli, Jordanian,

312
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,960
Speaker 2: Egyptian and American officials met in the Georganian city of Akaba.

313
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,080
Speaker 2: They emphasize a commitment to a quote de escalation on

314
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,680
Speaker 2: the ground to prevent further violence, and Israel pledged to

315
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:53,640
Speaker 2: stop authorizing new illegal settlements in Palestinian territories for six months.

316
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,040
Speaker 2: On March nineteenth, the second regional meeting happened and it

317
00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:02,080
Speaker 2: was held in Charmelchech, where the Palestinian and Israeli officials

318
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,800
Speaker 2: committed to uphold the status quo of the Holy sites

319
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,600
Speaker 2: in Jerusalem quote, both in words and in practice, and

320
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,240
Speaker 2: they emphasize the quote necessity of both Israelis and Palestinians

321
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,760
Speaker 2: to actively prevent any actions that would disrupt the sanctity

322
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,480
Speaker 2: of these sites in general, but especially during the upcoming

323
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,119
Speaker 2: holy month of Ramadan. I feel like every time Israel

324
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,720
Speaker 2: says anything, you can't actually believe anything they say. There's

325
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,800
Speaker 2: pledges don't matter, the UNS labeling them as the partment

326
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,879
Speaker 2: APARTI you say doesn't matter, nothing really matters, because it's

327
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,000
Speaker 2: all empty words. And nhen Yahu's government hasn't been upholding

328
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,119
Speaker 2: the status quo in words or in practice. He is

329
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,000
Speaker 2: allied with far right and alter religious forces that have

330
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,679
Speaker 2: openly stated that the Israeli recognition of these Urginian gardenship

331
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,520
Speaker 2: of the holy sites was a historic mistake that they

332
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,439
Speaker 2: are bound on rectifying. So not only are they meeting

333
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,280
Speaker 2: just like to say face, I think they've openly said

334
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,920
Speaker 2: that we don't respect this group that is being held together.

335
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:02,919
Speaker 2: We want we want to we want to change it.

336
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:03,360
Speaker 4: We don't.

337
00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,240
Speaker 2: Like, I don't understand how anyone can believe anything this

338
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:07,480
Speaker 2: country says.

339
00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,440
Speaker 3: Even within Israel, right like people who can recognize that

340
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,800
Speaker 3: this current like Nenyaku coalition, it is opposed to the

341
00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,600
Speaker 3: basics of their constitution and their democracy. And like when

342
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,080
Speaker 3: when you have people within the IDF being like, now, dog,

343
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,800
Speaker 3: you've gone too far like that, I think that that

344
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,800
Speaker 3: says a lot. But like they're not saying you've gone

345
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,880
Speaker 3: too far in yet throwing stung grenades into a mosque, right, like, yeah,

346
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,280
Speaker 3: he will get away with pushing that ship further and

347
00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:37,119
Speaker 3: further and.

348
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:38,800
Speaker 2: He has gone away with it.

349
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,440
Speaker 3: It's it's atrocious and will continue to when he gets

350
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:50,359
Speaker 3: domestic pushback, right like, because like aggressive Zionism is the

351
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:55,520
Speaker 3: kind of unifying like the grand unifying policy that brings

352
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,480
Speaker 3: people together for him, his coalition. So he's going to

353
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,200
Speaker 3: hell keep doing this, and like it would be irrational

354
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,560
Speaker 3: to expect people in Palestine not to respond. I know

355
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,000
Speaker 3: there are lots of new groups that are like popping

356
00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:13,960
Speaker 3: up to fight back, which you know, you'd have to

357
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 3: be incredibly naive to expect that not to happen.

358
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:21,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just what happens when you push people in

359
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,960
Speaker 2: a corner. And then I think what they actually like

360
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 2: is an excuse to fight back too. So like when

361
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:32,120
Speaker 2: these when these groups do attack, that's always their excuse

362
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,360
Speaker 2: as to why they're attacking. So it's almost like they're

363
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,359
Speaker 2: provoking an attack on purpose to give them a reason

364
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:43,239
Speaker 2: to attack, which is stupid. Again, that word is the

365
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:44,640
Speaker 2: only word in my head right now.

366
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,760
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, yeah, I was thinking about this thing that

367
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,960
Speaker 3: they do again, which seems to be like sticking a

368
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,120
Speaker 3: middle finger up. It's like that they like to withhold

369
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,639
Speaker 3: the bodies of people they've killed. Uh huh, yes, quite often,

370
00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,960
Speaker 3: and like I just don't, like, what do you expect

371
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,840
Speaker 3: to gain by doing that other than just being unfathomably cruel.

372
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:08,200
Speaker 2: And the burial process for Muslims is very sacred, it's

373
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,480
Speaker 2: a very sacred ritual, and so they're purposely denying them

374
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:12,800
Speaker 2: of that.

375
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,640
Speaker 3: It's like, I mean, did you Neva convention. It's it's

376
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:21,400
Speaker 3: like a pretend thing. It doesn't matter, but it's still

377
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 3: in humane, right, doesn't matter if some some people, so

378
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:25,800
Speaker 3: some old white dudes a long time ago, decided it

379
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:27,800
Speaker 3: was in humane or not, because I think anyone with

380
00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,240
Speaker 3: Ed Sgudon could be like, man, that's so that's fucked up.

381
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:36,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. Yeah, And speaking of the Zionist movement

382
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,520
Speaker 2: and the far right movement, twenty twenty three started with

383
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,200
Speaker 2: the far right Minister of National Security at Tamara Berg Gavid.

384
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,920
Speaker 2: He entered Al Haramashadif and this provoked public anger across Palestine.

385
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 2: Under his watch, the raids by Israeli settlers on the

386
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,400
Speaker 2: Muslim holy site of Alaxamosque. They were under the protection

387
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,959
Speaker 2: of the Israeli security forces and they've only intestified Bengavie.

388
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,400
Speaker 2: In other extremists in the government are in Yaho's only

389
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,200
Speaker 2: chance to stay in power and to avoid going to

390
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,080
Speaker 2: jail for corruption. And they know that, and they're taking

391
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,400
Speaker 2: advantage of the situation to support by all means possible

392
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,199
Speaker 2: the violence that the Jewish settlers have unleashed onto the

393
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,679
Speaker 2: Palestinian people in the occupied West Bank and continue to

394
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,439
Speaker 2: erode the status quo at the Holy sites. All of

395
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,000
Speaker 2: this is an aim to establish new facts on the

396
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,439
Speaker 2: ground aka full Israeli control. All of this is with

397
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 2: the aim of establishing full Israeli control. And Yahoo does

398
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,399
Speaker 2: not mind this violence. He encourages and likes it for

399
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 2: his own means. For him, violence is a useful distraction

400
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 2: from the anti government protests which have played his sixth

401
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 2: term in office because I did an election episode about

402
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 2: Israel that you can always listen to. But net and

403
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 2: Yahoo being in power wasn't supposed to happen again is

404
00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,879
Speaker 2: the main thing. And him being in power and bringing

405
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 2: in this terrible government. There's a reason why it's all

406
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:09,560
Speaker 2: happening so intensely. Yeah, it's just years of Zionist encouragement

407
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 2: finally coming to a head, especially now that a lot

408
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 2: of Zionists are in power and war is not really

409
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 2: in Israel's interest. It's currently preoccupied with the Palestinian resistance

410
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 2: in the West Bank. It's worried about Iran's military presence

411
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 2: and diplomatic successes in the region. It's been striking Syria regularly,

412
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 2: even just days after the devastating earthquakes that happened this year.

413
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 2: They bomb Syria and they want to curb Iranian influence.

414
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,439
Speaker 2: And they're also concerned about Hezbollah's role in a recent

415
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:45,640
Speaker 2: roadside bomb explosion near the border with Lebanon. So starting

416
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 2: a religious war quote unquote does not suit their I

417
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 2: don't understand the motivation there, other than to further a

418
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 2: certain dominance and to scare the Palestinians. On the other side,

419
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 2: Hamas and Gaza has tried to take a measured response. Again,

420
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 2: it warned Israel against further raids all in Alxa, and

421
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,120
Speaker 2: it is reluctant to escalate this because it would take

422
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 2: attention from the Palestinian resistance in the West Bank. Because

423
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 2: Hamas sees the main area of conflict with Israel as

424
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 2: the conflict in the West Bank, armed attacks in the

425
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 2: occupied territories cause much more anxiety to the Israeli authorities

426
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 2: than a confrontation with Gaza. Hamas's strategy now is to

427
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 2: encourage a popular Palestinian mombilization in the West Bank, Jerusalem

428
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 2: and Israel in order to serve as a barrier to

429
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 2: further encroachment on the Aluxa Mosque. And that said, Hamas

430
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 2: may find itself under pressure to act decisively, especially if

431
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,199
Speaker 2: Israel's brutal violence against worshippers continues. The Palestinian people I

432
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 2: mentioned this in previous episode, but they have reacted angrily

433
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 2: at the weak response from the PA, the Palatine authority,

434
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:57,360
Speaker 2: and it's inaction. They're frustrated that the supposed protectors or

435
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 2: liaisons that they have to negotiate or protect them, they're

436
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 2: not doing anything. So that anger becomes this pressure on

437
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 2: someone to act, and it's usually Hamas because they're the

438
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 2: longest standing and most powerful group in that area. The

439
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 2: Hamas leadership would not want to be perceived as passive,

440
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 2: and they may feel compelled to abide by popular demand

441
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 2: to take a tougher stance and intensify rocket fire towards Israel.

442
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 2: And this would repeat, as I mentioned earlier, the twenty

443
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: twenty one war on Gaza, which was also triggered by

444
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 2: Israel's raids on Al al Samosque, and this would only

445
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 2: further escalate the violence. Well after Ramadan, it's not going

446
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 2: to just be contained in this month. And let's take

447
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 2: our last break, really right back, and we're back talking

448
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 2: about the escalation of violence. And there have been repeated

449
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: warnings that Israel's actions in the Holy sites could trigger

450
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 2: a quote unquote religious war. In January, Jordinian Ambassador Mahammud

451
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,400
Speaker 2: Daifa Lahmoud told the UN Security Council that Israeli attacks

452
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 2: on Alfaramashadif are provoking quote the feelings of nearly two

453
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 2: billion Muslims and this could spark a religious conflict. So

454
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 2: the people that are saying it's religious may actually have

455
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: a point if this actually comes to a head, because

456
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 2: it's actually not the whole. The whole Israel Palestine quote

457
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 2: unquote conflict is not about religion. It's about occupation and colonialism.

458
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 2: But in this particular instance, when it comes to the mosque,

459
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 2: the anger is very rooted in faith and a direct

460
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 2: like slap in the face of their faith.

461
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,679
Speaker 3: So it takes a yeah, you can make it a

462
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 3: religious conflict. I think that's like other colonial powers have

463
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 3: been very good at doing by like desecrating holy sites

464
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,880
Speaker 3: of a religion. Yeah, right, Like it's kind of yeah,

465
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 3: you risk alienating like it's a billion people, or you know,

466
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 3: uniting a billion people in opposition when you just flagrantly

467
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 3: do this shit like this. Like I don't think anyone

468
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 3: who I'm not a religious person either, And like I

469
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 3: watched that video of the cops or soldiers, I guess

470
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,959
Speaker 3: kind of the same thing and like beaten people with

471
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 3: chairs and shit, and like that made me furious. That

472
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 3: made me want to hurt someone, like and that's not

473
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 3: something that's specially special to me. Maybe it was, I

474
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 3: can imagine it even more furious.

475
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: It should make anyone mad to see someone treated like that,

476
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. It shouldn't make anyone furious

477
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 2: to see that kind of terror taking place.

478
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 7: Yeah.

479
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people have trouble putting themselves

480
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 2: and someone else's shoes maybe, or like they have trouble

481
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 2: caring about something that doesn't affect them, And I think

482
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 2: that is a very dangerous path to go on. It's

483
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: just very self centered and main charactery and heartless.

484
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,959
Speaker 3: In my opinion, it's very odd that as humans, Like

485
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 3: we've normalized the existence and to an extent, people will

486
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 3: like simp for the existence of like this state, right,

487
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 3: which is like an abstraction of capital, And like then

488
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 3: the state exists as an a protraction of capital, and

489
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 3: it has boundaries and rules, and if you transgressed us,

490
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 3: even if you don't, if you're just like like antithetical

491
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 3: to its vision for a piece of land, then then

492
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 3: people can come and beat the shit into you while

493
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 3: you're praying. Now, like that's just a thing that's going

494
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 3: to happen. And like, I don't know if I feel

495
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 3: like sometimes if we if we sort of re round

496
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 3: the past two or three hundred years and we're like, hey,

497
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 3: peasant in the seventeen hundred six, do you want to

498
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 3: be in a place where like someone could walk into

499
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 3: this mosque anytime thirty stom grades beat the shit out

500
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,400
Speaker 3: of old ladies, and like no one would go from

501
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 3: like A to B. Right, But we're at B now

502
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 3: and people don't seem to want to like investigate how

503
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 3: we got here and what we can do to change it.

504
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they regard it as like just a thing

505
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 2: that happens in order for like humanity or like civilization

506
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 2: to progress. Yeah, so backwards. It doesn't have to be

507
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 2: like that.

508
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 3: No, people can read the door of everything they want to. Yes,

509
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 3: they want to know about that, but yeah, oh you

510
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:10,959
Speaker 3: can just you know, not in sim for cops.

511
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 4: If you don't, I can help.

512
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 2: That's a good first step, because to fuck cops. But

513
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 2: there is a growing concern that with its aggressive actions

514
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 2: in Aluxa, Nanyahu's government is seeking to impose restrictions on

515
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 2: the access that Palestinians have to the holy site, the

516
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 2: way that it was done with the Abrahemi Mosque and

517
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 2: Hebron that I mentioned earlier. This mosque was divided by

518
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: the Israeli authorities into sections that Muslims and Jews can

519
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 2: visit to supposedly prevent further violence because a masker happened

520
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 2: there in nineteen ninety four, when a Jewish settler opened

521
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: fire on Muslim worshippers and killed twenty nine people who

522
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 2: were there to pray. So it's We've talked about how

523
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 2: history repeats itself a lot, and being afraid of that

524
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: happening is not illogical, it's not irrational because it's happened before,

525
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 2: it could happen again.

526
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, the IDF always backs up these settlers, right like

527
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 3: they did it yesterday. I think, like a kid was

528
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 3: killed in a refugee camp in an incident. I think

529
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 3: we'd started when, if I'm not wrong, there was a march,

530
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 3: like a bunch of settlers were marching into into an

531
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 3: area and claiming that you know, it's legalizing it and

532
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 3: normalize it, do another colonial conquest. And yeah, they're willing

533
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 3: to shoot a kid like you know, they seem to

534
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 3: be willing to back these people, especially when they form,

535
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 3: if I understand correctly, like an important part of the

536
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 3: coalition that Nenya who's relying on right now.

537
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 2: Oh, it's a huge part. And also those marches by

538
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 2: settlers are usually protected by cops, like they're shielded by

539
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 2: the IDF. It's not like they're there to stop any

540
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 2: kind of conflict. They're there to protect the settlers. It's

541
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: just backwards history repeating itself. And if these measures are

542
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 2: imposed on Alexa, it would be a clear violation of

543
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 2: the status quo, under which non Muslims are allowed to

544
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 2: visit only at certain hours of the day and they're

545
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 2: not allowed to pray inside. But this is obviously not

546
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 2: what's happening and so far there have only been condemnations

547
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 2: issued by Arab states and the EU and the US.

548
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 2: What Arab and Western capitals do not understand is that

549
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 2: unless there is a harsh response to Israeli actions now,

550
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: Natanyahuo's far right allies will only be emboldened to go

551
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 2: even further in their efforts to take over Muslim and

552
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: Christian holy sites and settle there. Israeli aggression and Elhadamashdif

553
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 2: is turning Israel into a detonator that will sooner or

554
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: later blow up the whole region. It's really felt like

555
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 2: that for me for a long time, and for a

556
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: lot of people. It's like this metaphorical ticking time bomb

557
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 2: and Israel themselves is provoking it to detonate. And I

558
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: think this pressure cooker of a situation is bound to

559
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 2: have an apex. It's not going to be boiling forever.

560
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: And the violence isn't just contained at Alexa. Israel didn't

561
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 2: take a break from all their other terrorist activities to

562
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 2: focus on just one, because their other terrors activities are

563
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 2: still happening. As you mentioned, on April tenth, a Palestinian

564
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 2: child was killed by Israeli forces in the akabeta Jabar

565
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 2: refugee camp in Jericho. Mohammed Fayez Bahan was fifteen years

566
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 2: old and he was shot in the head, chest and stomach.

567
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 2: Make it make sense. On April eighth, the Gaza Strip

568
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: endured a night of bombardment as Israeli fighter jets conducted

569
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 2: air raids on several sites in the territory. The first

570
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 2: Israeli air strike that hit was near Eldora Children's Hospital

571
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 2: in the besieged Gaza Strip. Some reporters talked to people

572
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 2: that experienced this event in this active terror and some

573
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 2: going to read some of their quotes. Samar al Juan

574
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 2: talked to Al Jazeera about her terrified experience when she

575
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 2: rushed to her two year old daughter's bed to pick

576
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: her up. Moments later, the glass from the window next

577
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 2: to her on the bed shattered and crashed onto the cot.

578
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 2: She said, my daughter miraculously survived. Last night, we were

579
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 2: sleeping in the ward. Suddenly we woke up to the

580
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 2: sound of terrifying air strikes. There were moments of massive fear.

581
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: The glass was falling. I immediately rushed to take my

582
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 2: child out of her bed. Moments later, the window fell

583
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 2: on her bed. I was so close to losing her

584
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. She continues to say. All the sick children

585
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 2: were frightened and screaming. A state of tension prevailed among

586
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 2: all the mothers and the medical staff because of the

587
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,959
Speaker 2: intensity of the bombing, glass from the windows was falling

588
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 2: and shattering. There were some windows that fell onto the

589
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: beds of sick children just moments after they had been

590
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 2: picked up, and this could have caused a catastrophe and

591
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 2: a large number of injuries. The Godz's Ministry of Health

592
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 2: said this is not the first time that health facilities

593
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 2: have been targeted and it is unacceptable. These attacks not

594
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 2: only put patience lives at risk, but they also create

595
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 2: a sense of fear among healthcare workersats in their families.

596
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 2: The same mother from earlier went on to say, several

597
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 2: children have spent the night trembling in fear. Our children

598
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: are poor in Gaza. They do not enjoy Ramadan or

599
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 2: d or any other occasion. They are always threatened with

600
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: fear and destruction that may come their way at any moment.

601
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's We did an interview a few months ago

602
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 3: with some young men from Gaza that we haven't put

603
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 3: out yet, but we will, But I've spoken to them

604
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 3: quite a few times, and I remember one of the

605
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 3: things that they would say to me that really sort

606
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 3: of like was very affecting for me was that like

607
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 3: they they got they had very young boys who would

608
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 3: come and stay and they would do parkour together, and

609
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 3: that these eight year old boys would routinely wake up

610
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 3: in the middle of the night screaming like like with

611
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 3: horrible PTSD, and they think, yeah, the fucking their children,

612
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 3: Like they shouldn't be anywhere near that stuff. And like

613
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 3: people will talk about precision air strikes in Gaza and

614
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 3: like it's not like even even if you manage to

615
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 3: somehow not kill any people, then you're still going to

616
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,240
Speaker 3: fundamentally alter the course of someone's life in a terrible way.

617
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 2: There was there was a study done. I'm paraphrasing it,

618
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 2: but it basically showed that the children in Gaza are

619
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 2: in a perpetual state of trauma like they had. They

620
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 2: they never get over the phase where they're out of

621
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 2: that fireflight mentality. Yeah, there's they're stunted in this the

622
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 2: fear part of PTSD. And it's so sad because that's there,

623
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: that's their reality. They've never known anything different other than

624
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 2: fear and violence and the loss of life at any moment.

625
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they can't leave right, like, it's extremely difficult,

626
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 3: Like our friends who have tried to leave that it's

627
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 3: taken them years of trying to leave. They can't go

628
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 3: anywhere else. They're trapped in the most bombed place on earth,

629
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:56,280
Speaker 3: and that's the whole reality.

630
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 2: Gaza has been referred to an open air, constant camp,

631
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 2: like it's not just a place where people live.

632
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 5: It's been.

633
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 2: Just the main target of Israel for a really long time.

634
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 2: And I always recommend this movie, but Gaza Fights for

635
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,479
Speaker 2: Freedom is a great movie by Abbi Martin. It's free

636
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 2: on YouTube. I would watch it if you want some

637
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 2: more examples of what's happening in Gaza, because it's horrific.

638
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 2: It's a hard watch, but it's important if you want

639
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 2: more information. In the Altafa district of Gaza City, raids

640
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 2: were also taking place. Meshdi Abu Nima and his family

641
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 2: woke up at three am first hold, which is the

642
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 2: pre sunrise meal right before you fast the whole day,

643
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 2: so they woke up at three am and then suddenly

644
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: Israeli warplanes were attacking the empty land. Next to their

645
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 2: house and this caused severe destruction to their home. Abu

646
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 2: Nima is the father of seven children, and he told

647
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 2: Al Jazeira it was like an earthquake. We were terrified.

648
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 2: Immediately I rushed to my three daughter's bedroom to find

649
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 2: my two year old daughter covered shattered window glass. I

650
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 2: can't forget her shock, fear and her heartbeat. Everyone in

651
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 2: the house was screaming until now. I don't understand why

652
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 2: they bombed our area. How could an empty land be

653
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 2: bombed without any justification. There are no resistance fighters or

654
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 2: any military sites here. It is just an empty land

655
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 2: between residential buildings. And there was a lot of detruction

656
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 2: that happened. As I said, there's no excuse for it.

657
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 2: The oldest son in this family his car was obliterated

658
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 2: and it was his only source of income, and he

659
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 2: told al Jazeira conditions in the Gaza Strip are unbearably difficult.

660
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,760
Speaker 2: The bombing came and destroyed whatever we have left. Life

661
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 2: here has truly become hell.

662
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 4: Jesus Christ, do you.

663
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 2: Want to spell to any differently people? But I don't

664
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,760
Speaker 2: want to end this episode completely on a terrible note.

665
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: I was really happy today when I woke up and

666
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 2: my mom sent me this video of Bernie Sanders calling

667
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 2: Israel or racist government like in those words on television,

668
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 2: which is very very important, especially as a Jewish ally

669
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 2: because I've said this before, but Jewish people that defend

670
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 2: Palestine are some of the most important allies we can have,

671
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 2: because there's no excuse for anyone to be like, you're

672
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 2: anti Semitic, because it's not about that, it's not about

673
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 2: religion or anything. If you're anti Zionist, you're not anti Semitic.

674
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 2: It's very different. And so having Bernie Sanders be the

675
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 2: one to call out Israel is very important. So I

676
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 2: want to play that clip because he'll say it better

677
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 2: than I can, And yeah, that's the episode.

678
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 8: Do you think that democracy is in peril in Israel

679
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 8: right now?

680
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 9: I do. I am very worried about what Nyahu is

681
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 9: doing and some of his allies in government and what

682
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 9: may happen to the Palestinian people.

683
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 10: And let me tell you something.

684
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 9: I mean I haven't said this publicly, but I think

685
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 9: the United States gives billions of dollars in aid to Israel,

686
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 9: and I think we've to put some strings attached to

687
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,839
Speaker 9: that and say you cannot run a racist government. You

688
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 9: cannot turn your back on the Two States solutions. You

689
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 9: cannot demean the Palestinian people there. You just can't do

690
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 9: it and then come to America and ask for money.

691
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 8: Has the administration Have you talked to the administration about it?

692
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 8: They've been very careful in criticism of the Nat Yahoo government.

693
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 9: Well, I am not careful about it. I'm embarrassed that

694
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 9: in Israel you have a government of that nature right now.

695
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 8: And are you going to introduce something we may well yes,

696
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 8: to try to attack strings to.

697
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 11: Us they cannot give if you have a you know,

698
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 11: whether it's Saudi Arabia or other authoritarian societies. If a

699
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,399
Speaker 11: government is acting in a racist way and they want

700
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 11: billions of dollars from the taxpayers of the United States,

701
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 11: I think you say, sorry, but it's not acceptable.

702
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 9: You want our money. Fine, this is what you got

703
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 9: to do to get it.

704
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 2: Welcome back to what could happen here. It's still Cherene

705
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 2: and I'm still joined with the one and only James Stout.

706
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 3: Thank you for joining me, Thank you for having me.

707
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, anytime the listeners they get what they want, you know,

708
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:19,839
Speaker 2: they demanded it, and here.

709
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 3: We are delivery log onto the subreddit.

710
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:29,280
Speaker 2: I was interested in having someone else receive the information

711
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 2: I had because it's really hard to do it with myself.

712
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 2: And it's also hard not to like sound like a

713
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 2: bored professor or something, because I just sound.

714
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 3: Like this something I have experienced.

715
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 4: Hear, Yeah, like a pro professor.

716
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 3: But it's also very emotionally challenging to just be like,

717
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,800
Speaker 3: here some terrible fucking things that have happened again and exactly.

718
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you buy yourself, it's like it feels a

719
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 2: lot heavier for some reason. Uh, And so I'm glad

720
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 2: to have someone else on anyway, Thank you. Today I

721
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 2: wanted to talk about something that happened seventy five years

722
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 2: ago this month, So there's going to be some history here,

723
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 2: but I think it's really important history, so please stay

724
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 2: tuned if you want to learn some stuff. But seventy

725
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 2: five years ago this month, before Israel was officially established,

726
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 2: the Dairya scene massacre happened. This massacre was part of

727
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 2: the Nekba, or the catastrophe, and it matters even seventy

728
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 2: five years later, and it should always serve as a

729
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 2: reminder of the atrocities and massacres that took place in

730
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 2: order for a country that was already there to be stolen, renamed, terrorized,

731
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,919
Speaker 2: have people killed and forcibly removed from their homes, and

732
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 2: the indigenous people were expelled from their homes and the

733
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 2: ownership of their own land was granted someone else. And

734
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 2: I think reminding everybody of what happened to make that

735
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 2: happen is extremely important because we're not that far removed

736
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 2: from that brutalization. We can say, like, oh, that was

737
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 2: medieval times, people were different. It's like, no, that was

738
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 2: like less than one hundred years ago.

739
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 5: Shut up.

740
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 2: The nakba aka the catastrophe in Arabic. It refers to

741
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: the violent expulsion of approximately three quarters of all Palestinians

742
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 2: from their homes and homeland by Zionist militias in the

743
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 2: New Israeli Army during the State of Israel's establishment between

744
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 2: nineteen forty seven and nineteen forty eight. The Nekabo was

745
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 2: a deliberate and systematic act intended to establish a Jewish

746
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 2: majority state in Palestine. Amongst themselves. Zionist leaders use the

747
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 2: euphemism quote unquote transfer when discussing plans for what today

748
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,240
Speaker 2: would be called ethnic cleansing. The roots of the Nakba

749
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 2: and the ongoing problems in Palestine and Israel today. They

750
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 2: lie in the emergence of the political Zionism from the

751
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 2: late eighteen hundreds, when some European Jews, influenced by the

752
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 2: nationalism that was sweeping the continent, they decided that the

753
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 2: solution to anti Semitism in Europe and Russia was the

754
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 2: establishment of a state for Jews and Palestine. They began

755
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 2: immigrating to Palestine as colonizers, where they started depossessing indigenous

756
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 2: Muslim and Christian Palestinians. In November of nineteen forty seven,

757
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 2: following World War II and the Holocaust, the newly created

758
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 2: United Nations approved of a plan to divide Palestine into

759
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 2: Jewish and Arab states against the will of the majority

760
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: indigenous Palestinian Arab population. Again, this was not their decision

761
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 2: or choice to make. Regardless, the UN approved of a

762
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 2: plant divide Palestine into Jewish and Arab states against the

763
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 2: will of Palestinian people. It gave fifty six percent of

764
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 2: that land to the proposed Jewish state, despite the fact

765
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 2: that Jews only owned about seven percent of the private

766
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,240
Speaker 2: land of Palestine and made up only thirty three percent

767
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 2: of the population, and a very large percentage of this

768
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 2: percentage of thirty three percent were recent immigrants from Europe.

769
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 2: So handing over more than half of someone else's land

770
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 2: truly does it make sense. I don't care what religious

771
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 2: text or citing, it was wrong at this point in

772
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 2: time to take that land.

773
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 4: It was just wrong.

774
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 2: The Palestinian Arab state was to be created on just

775
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 2: forty two percent of Palestine, even though Muslim and Christian

776
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 2: Palestinians made up a large majority of the population and

777
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 2: were indigenous to all of the land. Jerusalem was to

778
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:27,280
Speaker 2: be governed by a special international administration. Almost immediately after

779
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 2: the partition plan was passed. The expulsion of Palestinians by

780
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 2: Zionists militias began months before the arming of neighboring Arab

781
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 2: states began to be involved. So there was no other

782
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 2: person to say, don't do this, or like there was

783
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 2: no one else to fight to hold them back. I

784
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 2: guess is what I'm trying to say. And by the

785
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 2: time these Zionist militias and the new Israeli Army finished,

786
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 2: the new State of Israel covered seventy eight percent of Palestine.

787
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 2: So they did even follow the rules either. They just

788
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 2: kept on swallowing up the land that wasn't even there

789
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 2: to begin with, with this violent Nekba that it's just

790
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 2: it's it's a terrible, horrific thing they did. There is

791
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 2: a film on Netflix called Farha. It's the first film

792
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 2: that depicts any kind of story about the Nekba, and

793
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 2: it's by a Palestinian filmmaker. It's really powerful. I would

794
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 2: recommend seeing that if you want an example of what happened,

795
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 2: because it's all factual as far as like the terror

796
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 2: that they did, so I'd recommend that film. Give it

797
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 2: five stars for the haters, you know what I mean?

798
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 3: Oh, guy, I can imagine. There were reviews just like yeah, death, Yeah.

799
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 2: That was the film that the Israeli government tried to

800
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 2: to ban, and they were a lot of Zionists were

801
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 2: commenting like terrible things about it and giving it one

802
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 2: star or whatever. They want Netflix to take it off Netflix,

803
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 2: but no, we fuck the haters. Help us out. Five stars.

804
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 2: Put it on the background of your TV. It doesn't matter.

805
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 4: Just keep streaming it, keep streaming it exactly strike a

806
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 4: blow against colonialism.

807
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 2: But that's just an example of how important and scared

808
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 2: they are of the truth. Because it's a movie. It's

809
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 2: a fucking movie.

810
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. The control of the narrative is so important in

811
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,439
Speaker 3: these things, exactly. Yes, And even the way you refer

812
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 3: to it, right, not not calling it the knock, like

813
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 3: calling it a transfer, not a cleansing, exactly, calling it,

814
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 3: like not referring to it in the same terms as

815
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 3: we would do like the genocidal set of colonialism that

816
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 3: settled this country, or you know, the way that Britain

817
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 3: and France and Germany behaved in Africa, like trying to

818
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 3: not like specifically opposing calling it an apartheid state, right

819
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 3: when when that's what it is, is what it does. Like,

820
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 3: all of those things are so important, and they might

821
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 3: seem like petty battles, but they really control how we

822
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 3: see things. I think when you control language, you can

823
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 3: control how people perceive things.

824
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 2: And I think controlling the narrative is so parallel to

825
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 2: like controlling the history books, because that's what gets remembered

826
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 2: by the people that want to the narrative to have

827
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 2: a certain thing. Not all history books obviously, but a

828
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,760
Speaker 2: lot of the times the things that are considered facts

829
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 2: are biased. You know, I don't know if that makes sense.

830
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh, you're only getting half of the things, right,

831
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 3: or like, yeah, I mean, as a historian, we are

832
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 3: all biased, and so we should declare our biases and

833
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 3: sort of go forward that way, rather than presenting our

834
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 3: biases as unbiased and neutral and then obviously creating a

835
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 3: biased thing, which is what we tend to get in

836
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 3: the US, especially when we look at this stuff.

837
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 1: Right.

838
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:44,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, totally.

839
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 5: I love that.

840
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 2: I Like, I didn't bash historians, but I criticized them.

841
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 2: But you're like, I'm an historian.

842
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I will not jump to the defense of science

843
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 3: historians I've worked with. Like, there's a chapter in my

844
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 3: book about volunteers in the Spanish Civil War, and like

845
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 3: about thirty percent of volunteers were Jewish people, right, and

846
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 3: many of them had been like couldn't go back to

847
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 3: Like there are some of them who like fought in

848
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 3: the Spanish Civil War, were gorillas in the Second World War,

849
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 3: survived the Holocaust in some cases, and they were anti Zionists,

850
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 3: and so like they didn't have a place, like you know,

851
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 3: there wasn't a place for them as people who had

852
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 3: had stuck to their very decent principles of like you

853
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 3: shouldn't impose shit on force for people who don't want it,

854
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 3: and we're opposed to fascism or opposed to colonialism. There

855
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 3: wasn't a place for them in that sort of post

856
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 3: World War two Jewish movement, that Zionist movement. There were

857
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 3: in other places, but yeah, it's very sad that their

858
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 3: stories aren't like like if a friend of mine was

859
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 3: the person who first wrote articles about them, but like

860
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 3: their memory is completely erased, right, or at least it's

861
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 3: not present, And then they should be people that, like

862
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 3: any recentall person would be very proud of, right, they

863
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 3: were willing to die for someone else's battle, and then yeah,

864
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 3: they were kind of that they're they stuck to the

865
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,720
Speaker 3: same principles the whole way through it, and the world

866
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 3: kind of moved around them.

867
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean I think as time goes on,

868
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 2: those things won't even be existing in people's reality, you

869
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like if no one remembers that

870
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,760
Speaker 2: that happened, if no one is part of what that happened,

871
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 2: like it's just going to go away. It's going to disappear.

872
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why it's so important to do history and

873
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 3: to do like to use different sources, right, and to

874
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 3: do history from a people's perspective, not from a perspective

875
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 3: of people who are in power.

876
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 4: Exact history from below, that's what we call it.

877
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 3: Say that sounds on more time if people call it

878
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 3: history from below, but like and to look at other sources, right,

879
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 3: like without like riding my hobby horse too much. Like

880
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 3: I was primarily a historian of sport and anti fascism,

881
00:48:57,800 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 3: and like specifically sport.

882
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 4: I got a ton of pushback on when I started.

883
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 3: Because it's not important, right, and it's not you know,

884
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 3: it's not like fucking I don't have any charts or whatever,

885
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 3: and like, it's actually very important to where people were

886
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 3: able to express who they were and who was on

887
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 3: the team and who was not on their team, right,

888
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 3: And that's where you find these people who are very

889
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:22,839
Speaker 3: impactful lots of other areas. And I think, like if

890
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 3: I was a younger person and I was trying to

891
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 3: find my way from my identity and be like, hey,

892
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 3: the signism seems wrong, like in the same way that

893
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 3: other things seem wrong, to have those people to be like, yeah,

894
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 3: these people also saw that, right, Like they didn't want

895
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,359
Speaker 3: a boot on anyone's neck, not just not I didn't

896
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 3: want it to be their boot on someone else's neck

897
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 3: and that was fine. You know, they like having seen

898
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 3: the Holocausts, having seen what happened in to Spain, the like,

899
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 3: now this shit is wrong. It's still wrong. Doesn't matter

900
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 3: if we're doing it.

901
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, their humanity prevailed.

902
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's important for people like to have those

903
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 3: those stories to be like, Okay, well I'm not fucking

904
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 3: crazy or it's not that I just don't understand what

905
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 3: it was like back then because a lot of people

906
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 3: could see it and we're like, no, we shouldn't be

907
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 3: doing this.

908
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 2: Yes, well, historian James, thank.

909
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 4: You for jordaning me today. Sorry, no, why are you apologizing?

910
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 5: I love that shit? Fuck No, I love it history

911
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 5: from below.

912
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 3: That you said, yeah's quite no theme.

913
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 9: Now.

914
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 2: I think it's a good thing to abide by. So

915
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 2: I'm glad that there's a little catchy phrase for.

916
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 3: It, Stewart Hale and things like that. Yeah, we'll do

917
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 3: another episode on this one day.

918
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 5: Yes please.

919
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 2: So, as we mentioned before, Israel stole about seventy eight

920
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 2: percent of Palestine and then this left twenty two percent,

921
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,399
Speaker 2: and the twenty two percent was compromised of the West Bank,

922
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 2: East Jerusalem and Gaza and these regions fell under the

923
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:48,479
Speaker 2: control of Jordan Egypt, respectively. In the nineteen sixty seven war,

924
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:52,320
Speaker 2: the Israeli military occupied the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza,

925
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 2: and Israel began colonizing them shortly afterwards. And just to

926
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 2: give you some numbers, I think they're important sometimes just

927
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 2: to get the context of the scale of something. But

928
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 2: the Nekaba, by the numbers, is what I'm about to continue.

929
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,759
Speaker 2: Between seven hundred and fifty thousand and one million Palestinians

930
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 2: were expelled from their homeland and they were made refugees

931
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 2: by Zionist militias, amounting to approximately seventy five percent of

932
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 2: all Palestinians. Between two hundred and fifty thousand and three

933
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 2: hundred fifty thousand Palestinians were driven out from their homes

934
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 2: by Zionist militias between the passage of the UN Partition

935
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 2: Plan on November twenty ninth of nineteen forty seven and

936
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 2: the establishment of Israel on May fifteenth of nineteen forty eight.

937
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,280
Speaker 2: Prior to the outbreak of war with the neighboring Arab States,

938
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 2: several dozen massacres of Palestinians were carried out by Zionist

939
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,720
Speaker 2: militias and the Israeli Army, which played a critical role

940
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 2: in prompting the flight of many Palestinians from their homes.

941
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 2: More than one hundred Palestinians, including dozens of children, women,

942
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 2: and elderly people, were massacred in the Palestinian town of

943
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 2: Dariusne near Jerusalem on April ninth of nineteen forty eight

944
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 2: by Zionist militia. This is the main massacre I want

945
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 2: to talk about today because it's been exactly seventy five

946
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 2: years on April ninth. But it was one of many massacres,

947
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 2: and it was the one that is cited as igniting

948
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:16,439
Speaker 2: a lot of the Codomino effect. The massacre at Daria

949
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 2: Scene was one of the worst atrocities committed during the

950
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 2: Nakba and a pivotal moment in Israel's establishment as a

951
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 2: Jewish majority state, and again it triggered the flight of

952
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 2: Palestinians from their homes in Jerusalem and beyond. The Dariacene

953
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 2: massacre is commemorated annually by Palestinians around the world. Approximately

954
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:39,320
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty thousand Palestinians remained inside what became

955
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 2: Israel's borders in nineteen forty eight, a quarter of them

956
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 2: internally displaced. These Palestinians, who are sometimes referred to as

957
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:51,280
Speaker 2: Israeli Arabs, were granted Israeli citizenship, but stripped of most

958
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 2: of their land and governed by violent, undemocratic military rule

959
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:59,319
Speaker 2: as of nineteen sixty six. As of twenty twenty three,

960
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 2: there are more than two million Palestinians with Israeli citizenship,

961
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 2: comprising more than twenty percent of Israel's population, and they

962
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 2: are forced to live as second class citizens in their

963
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 2: own homeland, subject to dozens of laws that discriminate against

964
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 2: them in almost every aspect of life because they're not Jewish.

965
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 2: Let's take our first break here, and I'll come back

966
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 2: and tell you more terrible things. So herepe, Okay, we're back.

967
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 2: I'm going to finish up a little bit more of

968
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 2: these numbers, and then I'm going to talk about Daryasin.

969
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 2: More than four hundred Palestinian cities and towns were systematically

970
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 2: destroyed by Zionist militias and the New Israeli Army, or

971
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 2: they are repopulated with Jews. Between nineteen forty eight and

972
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty, most Palestinian communities, including homes businesses, houses of worship,

973
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 2: vi urban centers. They were destroyed to prevent the return

974
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 2: of their Palestinian owners, who are now refugees outside of

975
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 2: Israel's borders, or they were internally displaced inside them. Today

976
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 2: there are more than seven point two million Elstinian refugees,

977
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 2: including Neckbus survivors and their descendants. They're located mostly in

978
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:09,280
Speaker 2: the occupied West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza and neighboring

979
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:12,879
Speaker 2: Arab countries such as Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria, and they're

980
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 2: denied their internationally recognized legal right to return to their homeland.

981
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 2: This is the last big number I want to say,

982
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 2: just because I think it's it's so big I had

983
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 2: to say it. Approximately four million, two hundred and forty

984
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 2: four thousand, seven hundred and seventy six acres of Palestinian

985
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 2: land was stolen by Israel during and immediately after the

986
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 2: establishment of the state in nineteen forty eight. Millions of acres.

987
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 2: Like it's not just a tiny little place that no

988
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 2: one was in before, like noe, millions of acres of

989
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,800
Speaker 2: land were forcibly stolen.

990
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah, and all of them like land that

991
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,839
Speaker 3: people have had for generations, that they've farmed Like this

992
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 3: is like it's not the oldest settlement on earth, but

993
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 3: people have been living here for tenth thousands of years.

994
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,439
Speaker 2: I said, Aluxey Yesterday was built in ten thirty five.

995
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,320
Speaker 3: Like yeah, this shit is very old and like sometimes

996
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 3: the same people or people's sort of family. It's not

997
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 3: just a like loss of property, so lots of everything

998
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:18,959
Speaker 3: that's sacred and like the Aluxa Mosque or these things

999
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 3: that are sacred and important to you, you.

1000
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, and so more it's what you said earlier.

1001
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 2: It's like we have to remember these things because otherwise

1002
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 2: they'll get forgotten the in whoever's recording the history, you

1003
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:31,879
Speaker 2: know what I mean.

1004
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 3: Like it's yeah, I mean they have been here. Right

1005
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,280
Speaker 3: when we look at how America sees itself, it sees

1006
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 3: the land that it expanded into, it's like terrannualius, like

1007
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 3: like empty land that was unoccupied, which it was not.

1008
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 3: There was not a wilderness to tame. Like there were

1009
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 3: people living here and they were living very happily, and

1010
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 3: they were living they weren't like I don't want to

1011
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 3: do the whole like like in commune with nature thing,

1012
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 3: but like this wasn't a wild and savage place, right,

1013
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 3: there were people existing here and taking from the land

1014
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 3: and living on the land, and like we that just

1015
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 3: doesn't get fucking like Ruth Bader Ginsburg was citing the

1016
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 3: doctrine of discovery, you know, like you all the Libs

1017
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 3: love Ruth Bada Ginswick, but like it's so subsumed into

1018
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 3: what America is that Like like Obama did a fucking

1019
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 3: tweet like this nation was built on peaceful protest. It

1020
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 3: was built on fucking genocide, Like fuck off, yeah, but

1021
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 3: we've allowed that to just go completely forgotten, right, Like

1022
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 3: you don't go to school in California and be like, oh,

1023
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 3: there is a fucking unit they just changed. Actually there

1024
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 3: was a Unipero Hessea High School, and like this is

1025
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 3: a person who did genocide. Like we wouldn't have a

1026
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 3: fucking Gerbels High School in Germany, you know.

1027
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 4: And then Britain does a shit too.

1028
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 3: I'm not not like, yeah, I'm in a glasshouse, so

1029
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 3: I don't say that, but yeah, we we this wasn't

1030
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 3: an empty place.

1031
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 2: And it's really important to remember that because that is

1032
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 2: so often the talking twenty of fucking stupid people that

1033
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 2: try to defend what Israel is doing. Let's go to

1034
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 2: now the main massacre or topic I want to talk

1035
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 2: about today, which happened on April ninth in nineteen forty eight,

1036
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 2: just weeks before the creation of the State of Israel,

1037
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 2: when members of the Urgun and stern Gang Zionist militias

1038
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 2: attacked the village of Dryasin and they killed at least

1039
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 2: one hundred and seven Palestinians. Zionist militias tore through Palestinian villages,

1040
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 2: massacring villagers and expelling those who remained alive to clear

1041
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 2: the way for the creation of the State of Israel.

1042
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 2: And this was one of the many massacres that happened

1043
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 2: during the Nekba, where again an estimated fifteen thousand Palestinians

1044
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 2: were killed and some seven hundred and fifty thousand fled

1045
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:49,720
Speaker 2: their homes as refugees, ignited a very terrifying domino effect.

1046
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,439
Speaker 2: This year, the UN will host its first ever high

1047
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 2: level event to commemorate this forced displacement that resulted in

1048
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 2: the establishment of the State of Israel in May nineteen

1049
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 2: forty So this is the first time ever that the

1050
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 2: U one has recognized that the Nekba even happened, or

1051
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 2: like is it happened enough to mention it and commemorate it.

1052
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 2: But Palestinians have never ceased to commemorate the loss of

1053
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 2: each village that was once part of their homeland. Among

1054
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 2: them was Daria Scene, and it was a village perched

1055
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 2: on a hill west of Jerusalem. And this massacre has

1056
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 2: become emblematic of the suffering that Israel would inflict on

1057
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 2: the Palestinians. Many of the people slaughtered, from those who

1058
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 2: were tied to trees and burned to death to those

1059
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 2: lined up against a wall and shot by submachine guns.

1060
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:39,560
Speaker 2: Many of these people were women, children, and the elderly,

1061
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 2: and Fudaw does a really good job of showing this

1062
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 2: lack of discrimination of life in general in that movie

1063
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:51,439
Speaker 2: that I mentioned earlier. As the news of these atrocities spread,

1064
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 2: thousands fled their villages in fear. So again on April

1065
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 2: ninth and nineteen forty eight, the Israeli militia struck Daria Scene,

1066
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 2: where about seven hundred Palestinian lived. According to the Israeli narrative,

1067
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 2: operation Nashon and Ahhson apologies if I mispronounce that, but

1068
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 2: this operation aimed to break through the blockaded road to

1069
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 2: Jerusalem and the fighters encountered stiff resistance from the villagers

1070
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:20,440
Speaker 2: that forced them to advance slowly from house to house.

1071
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 2: It's kind of silly and strange how the same excuse

1072
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 2: is being used, like a century later to justify acts

1073
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 2: of terror. They're saying that villagers resisted them and that's

1074
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 2: why they butchered them.

1075
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 4: It's yeah, it's it's it's pathetic. It's stupid and pathetic.

1076
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 3: And like, yeah, for having the I don't know, temerity

1077
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 3: to be like no, you can't take my home. Yeah,

1078
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 3: they carried out a collective punishment on Yeah.

1079
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,000
Speaker 2: And that's the Israeli narrative. That's what their history books say,

1080
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 2: is that this was the aim of this operation. They

1081
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:56,760
Speaker 2: were simply encountering the stiff resistance and they had to

1082
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:58,920
Speaker 2: go from house to house like that's it's just a

1083
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 2: fucked up narrative. But Palestinians and some Israeli historians say

1084
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 2: that the villagers had signed a non aggression agreement with

1085
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 2: the Haganah, which was the pre Israeli state Zionist army.

1086
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 2: They were nevertheless murdered in cold blood and buried in

1087
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 2: mass graves. According to a nineteen forty eight report, filed

1088
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 2: by the British Delegation to the UN. The killing of

1089
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 2: quote some two hundred and fifty Arabs men, women and

1090
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 2: children took place in circumstances of great savagery. Women and

1091
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 2: children were stripped, lined up, photographed, and then slaughtered by

1092
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 2: automatic firing. Those who were taken prisoners were treated with

1093
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 2: degrading brutality. This is from a nineteen forty eight report

1094
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 2: filed by the British delegation.

1095
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 5: Like it's in the.

1096
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 3: Record, weren't they both like the stern going and the

1097
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,360
Speaker 3: whatever the militia was called the begin was in It's

1098
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 3: like I said, l I think were like they hadn't

1099
01:00:56,720 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 3: really done any military operations before, right that they'd just

1100
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 3: been just like bomb like they did car bombs and

1101
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 3: shit favious to this, Like the British had already like

1102
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 3: like that. They were like they were killing British people

1103
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 3: and I guess Arab people in Palestine before this.

1104
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I mean the escalation in violence was like

1105
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 2: pretty severe, right, but I think they would have gone

1106
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 2: there eventually, you know, there's kind of hit forward.

1107
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 3: I think they'd already like established an intention or like

1108
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 3: a willingness to kill just about anyone who got in

1109
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 3: their way, right, and they wanted to show that they

1110
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 3: were like unlike the like I guess, like the labor

1111
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 3: aligned Zionist movement, that they were like more hardcore than that,

1112
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 3: and they exactly like. That's why they made a spectacle

1113
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 3: of violence like this.

1114
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:52,240
Speaker 2: They're establishing their their power and dominance right. Israeli historian

1115
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:57,840
Speaker 2: Benny Morris said that the militias quote ransacked unscrupulously, stole

1116
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 2: money and jewels from the survivors, and earned the bodies.

1117
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 2: Even dismemberment and rape occurred. I mean, there's nothing to

1118
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 2: say to that. The number of dead is disputed, but

1119
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:12,360
Speaker 2: it ranges from one hundred to two hundred and fifty.

1120
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:16,520
Speaker 2: A representative of the Red Cross who entered Darya scene

1121
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:20,080
Speaker 2: on April eleventh. Two days later, they reported seeing the

1122
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:23,760
Speaker 2: bodies of some one hundred and fifty people heaped haphazardly

1123
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 2: in a cave, while around fifty were amassed in a

1124
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 2: separate location. Prominent Jewish intellectual Martin Buber wrote at the

1125
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:35,600
Speaker 2: time that such events had been quote unquote infamous. In

1126
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 2: Darya scene, hundreds of innocent men, women and children were massacred.

1127
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 2: He said, let the village remain uninhabited for the time being.

1128
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:46,880
Speaker 2: Let its desolation be a terrible and tragic symbol of

1129
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 2: war and a warning to our people that no practical

1130
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:54,520
Speaker 2: military needs may ever justify such acts of murder. He

1131
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 2: also noted that Darya scene had a profound demographic and

1132
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 2: political effect. He's referring to the fact that the news

1133
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:05,439
Speaker 2: of his masacre spread and it prompted hundreds of Palestinians

1134
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 2: to flee their homes. Four nearby villages were next Pilunia, Cyrus,

1135
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 2: bit Saruk and Bidu. Daria scene was no mistake, according

1136
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:21,400
Speaker 2: to Israeli historian Elain Pape. Iline Pape has been called

1137
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 2: a Israeli quote unquote revisionist historian because he tells the truth,

1138
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 2: the actual truth of what happened in their history.

1139
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, the concept of Vision's history is nonsense. Like it

1140
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 3: suggests that like there is a settled history at some point,

1141
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 3: which that's not right. Like we're always looking at sources again,

1142
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 3: but was looking for new sources, different perspectives. It's not

1143
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 3: like there is like this monolith of history and then

1144
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 3: some meddling bussard comes and chops it down. It's fundamentally

1145
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:52,800
Speaker 3: like misunderstanding how history is done. Yes, why shouldn't pay

1146
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:57,360
Speaker 3: attention to Malcolm Gladwell for that and many other reasons,

1147
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's a ridiculous idea. He's not Like it's

1148
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:02,560
Speaker 3: not like everyone was like, oh yeah, this wasn't a

1149
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 3: bad thing, and then he came along and like injected

1150
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:09,600
Speaker 3: some kind of political animists in his history. He came

1151
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:11,680
Speaker 3: along and looked at maybe news sources, maybe the same

1152
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:13,400
Speaker 3: sources of people. How I don't know, And it was like, now,

1153
01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:16,840
Speaker 3: you guys, have you got this wrong? You called this wrong?

1154
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:19,960
Speaker 3: But that's what historians do. Like you can't fucking write

1155
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 3: your PhD without disagreeing with someone and doing some new history.

1156
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 3: Like that's what takes you from a master's to a doctorate.

1157
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 3: And like you're supposed to do three articles in a

1158
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:30,760
Speaker 3: book to get tenure. Like your articles can't just be like, yeah,

1159
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 3: we pretty much called this one right the first time,

1160
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 3: you know, Like the process of doing history is to

1161
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:39,960
Speaker 3: revise and hope to better understand things from different perspectives. Totally.

1162
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:42,680
Speaker 2: I like that that's the point of history is to revise,

1163
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:45,600
Speaker 2: Because you're right, and I just think it's it's so

1164
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 2: discrediting of his work.

1165
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:48,120
Speaker 3: To call him a.

1166
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:52,479
Speaker 2: Revisionist historian, Yeah, it's condescending, you know, and as someone

1167
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:54,080
Speaker 2: that interviewed him called him this.

1168
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:57,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean hopefully he gave them both barrels because

1169
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 3: it's it's kind of a ridiculous. Yeah, it shows that

1170
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:03,600
Speaker 3: they fundamentally unqualified to be discussing the topic.

1171
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:04,240
Speaker 4: I guess.

1172
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:07,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to talk about what he said, but

1173
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:10,560
Speaker 2: I realized that I didn't take the last break, and

1174
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:12,800
Speaker 2: I want to right now, and that.

1175
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:15,720
Speaker 4: Is my choice. So Okay, Satan, proud of you.

1176
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:20,960
Speaker 2: Thank you, and we're back. We're talking about Ellen Pepe

1177
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:24,240
Speaker 2: a revisionist quoe unquote historian, but not really. You know,

1178
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:27,520
Speaker 2: he was called that because he was talking about Israel

1179
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:30,800
Speaker 2: the way it should be talked about, with actual historical facts.

1180
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 2: In one of his writings, Pape wrote depopulating Palestine was

1181
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 2: not a consequential war event, but a carefully planned strategy

1182
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:44,440
Speaker 2: otherwise known as Plan Dalette, which was authorized by the

1183
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 2: Israeli leader Ben Gurion in March of nineteen forty eight.

1184
01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:52,480
Speaker 2: Operation Nashan was in fact the first step in the plan,

1185
01:05:53,240 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 2: and as I said, the massacre unleashed a cycle of

1186
01:05:56,800 --> 01:05:59,880
Speaker 2: violence and counter violence that has been the pattern of

1187
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 2: since this happened, Jewish forces have regarded any Palestinian village

1188
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 2: as an enemy state or a military base, and this

1189
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 2: has paved the way for this blurred distinction between massacring

1190
01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:16,480
Speaker 2: civilians and killing combatants. According to the historian, so what

1191
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:20,400
Speaker 2: does all of this say about Israel's vision today? This

1192
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:22,440
Speaker 2: is why I want to talk about this is because

1193
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:25,800
Speaker 2: this started this whole cycle of violence that we still

1194
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:30,960
Speaker 2: see perpetuated today. And it's why Palestinians refuse to forget

1195
01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:33,320
Speaker 2: it and forget what happened, and they'll always talk about

1196
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:36,840
Speaker 2: Palestine because they don't want to be erased from history books.

1197
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:42,040
Speaker 2: Dariasne has become a powerful symbol of Palestinian dispossession as

1198
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:46,080
Speaker 2: well as a historical fact Israel must confront when retelling

1199
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:50,400
Speaker 2: its national narrative. According to Pepe, given that terrorism is

1200
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 2: a mode of behavior that Israeli's attribute solely to the

1201
01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:56,920
Speaker 2: Palestinian resistance movement, it could not be a part of

1202
01:06:56,960 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 2: any analysis or description of chapters in Israel's pace, asked.

1203
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:03,360
Speaker 2: One way out of this conundrum, he says, was to

1204
01:07:03,480 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 2: accredit a particular political group, preferably an extremist one with

1205
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 2: the same attributes of the enemy, thus exonerating mainstream national behavior.

1206
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:16,680
Speaker 2: Israeli historians as well as Israeli society. They've only been

1207
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:19,000
Speaker 2: able to admit to the massacre and Daria scene by

1208
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 2: attributing it to the right wing group Irgun, but have

1209
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:25,960
Speaker 2: covered up or denied the other massacres, notably the one

1210
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:29,320
Speaker 2: in Tantura in nineteen forty eight. This was carried out

1211
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:32,320
Speaker 2: by the Huganah, the main Jewish militia from which the

1212
01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:36,400
Speaker 2: current day Israeli military has evolved from. And despite this

1213
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:40,520
Speaker 2: shift of blame, leading human rights organizations like Human Rights

1214
01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 2: Watch and Amnesty International have labeled Israel itself in a

1215
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:45,080
Speaker 2: part heid state.

1216
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 3: I've just seen the worst ever op ed in the

1217
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:51,920
Speaker 3: Jerusalem Post about now what tell me it's about this,

1218
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 3: but it's about like the Knakba, Like it contains like

1219
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:58,560
Speaker 3: this kind of narrative that like, oh, well, the Knackbo

1220
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:02,680
Speaker 3: was who was coined by by like historians to like

1221
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:06,240
Speaker 3: explain the failure of the Palestinians to defend themselves, which

1222
01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:11,920
Speaker 3: is like a what does that fucking matter? And be

1223
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:15,800
Speaker 3: like what are you saying? Like well, like that contains

1224
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:17,360
Speaker 3: within it the nonation that they would have to defend

1225
01:08:17,360 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 3: themselves from someone who was that how and then like

1226
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:24,960
Speaker 3: like going back and forth on the number of people killed,

1227
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:27,240
Speaker 3: like which you know, the low estimates are as low

1228
01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:29,280
Speaker 3: as like one hundred and seven highest winths in the

1229
01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:32,639
Speaker 3: two hundred and fifties based on claims that the militias

1230
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:37,120
Speaker 3: themselves made. Right, So like again, what it is it

1231
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 3: cool to kill like one hundred people but two hundred

1232
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,360
Speaker 3: and fifty people's like, you know, we should step in there,

1233
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:48,800
Speaker 3: And just like I was just checking the author's affiliation

1234
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 3: because that's always fun, and he's a research for the

1235
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:56,839
Speaker 3: Menachen Beigine Heritage Center. I may have pronounced that incorrectly,

1236
01:08:56,880 --> 01:09:01,280
Speaker 3: But when the organization you work for is is a

1237
01:09:01,360 --> 01:09:04,480
Speaker 3: memorializing heritage of one of the dudes who led the massacre,

1238
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:09,280
Speaker 3: you might want to like to step aside from I

1239
01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:12,719
Speaker 3: mean or not right or just shut up, just dive

1240
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:15,639
Speaker 3: the fuck in. But like you are flying your flag

1241
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:17,800
Speaker 3: as a fairly part. It's like I said, right, all

1242
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:21,840
Speaker 3: historians are bias. But yes, when like you know, if

1243
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:24,880
Speaker 3: if I work at the Colonel Custer Heritage Center, like

1244
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:28,639
Speaker 3: please take my account of the United States, like violent

1245
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:30,679
Speaker 3: assault on the Lakota people with a pinch of salt,

1246
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:33,680
Speaker 3: because like, I'm coming at this from a certain perspective,

1247
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:37,839
Speaker 3: and yeah, here we are at twenty twenty three, still

1248
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:42,360
Speaker 3: still doing the doing the thing where we were, rather

1249
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:44,760
Speaker 3: than just like taking the l and just being like oo,

1250
01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 3: like it's bad actually to rape and mutilate and murder

1251
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 3: people trying to trying to equivocate.

1252
01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:55,160
Speaker 2: It's funny you mentioned articles though, because I just saw

1253
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 2: one when I was researching for Aloxa yesterday of this

1254
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:02,200
Speaker 2: Israeli car that admitted that the videos he saw was

1255
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:03,000
Speaker 2: a bad.

1256
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 5: Look like that's what he said.

1257
01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:08,880
Speaker 3: It was just like good Cup, Yeah, And the course

1258
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:10,960
Speaker 3: of solution site is to not allow people to take

1259
01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:12,240
Speaker 3: videos of you brutal.

1260
01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:15,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah that's the yeah. Yeah.

1261
01:10:15,479 --> 01:10:19,720
Speaker 3: Tim Apple known anti cup, Yeah, anarchist.

1262
01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:22,200
Speaker 4: So.

1263
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:26,200
Speaker 2: Human Rights Watch and Amiasty International have labeled Israel as

1264
01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:29,920
Speaker 2: an apartheid state, and Human Rights Watch said in twenty

1265
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:33,960
Speaker 2: twenty one, we reached this determination based on our documentation

1266
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:37,960
Speaker 2: of an overarching government policy to maintain the domination by

1267
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:42,799
Speaker 2: Jewish Israeli's over Palestinians. As recognition grows that these crimes

1268
01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:46,760
Speaker 2: are being committed, the failure to recognize that reality requires

1269
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:49,599
Speaker 2: burying your head deeper and deeper into the sand.

1270
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 3: Today.

1271
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:54,759
Speaker 2: Apartheid is not a hypothetical or future scenario, and I

1272
01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:56,960
Speaker 2: apartheid is a very light word to use, but I

1273
01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:00,920
Speaker 2: did want to just mention that they an organization, so

1274
01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 2: that not just like I don't know, there's it's officially

1275
01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:07,280
Speaker 2: on paper that Israel sucks, Like why are we still

1276
01:11:07,320 --> 01:11:09,799
Speaker 2: defending it? I'm just like, go rewatch the Bernie Sanders

1277
01:11:09,880 --> 01:11:14,080
Speaker 2: video from yesterday, like or audio, because there's no reason

1278
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:17,679
Speaker 2: we should be funneling any kind of support into that country.

1279
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:23,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean it. It's mad. We still made

1280
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:25,400
Speaker 3: a lot of money selling weapons to Israel, but it

1281
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:28,280
Speaker 3: used against like and a Robert and I pursued a

1282
01:11:28,280 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 3: public records request for going on two years for like

1283
01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:38,160
Speaker 3: these batteries that launch hundreds and hundreds of smoke grenades

1284
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:44,559
Speaker 3: and flash bangs that a US company is selling to Israel, Right, yeah,

1285
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:46,799
Speaker 3: like it's great they can fire them into a masque.

1286
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 2: I mean not surprising.

1287
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:52,400
Speaker 3: No, it's just annoying. Annoying the wrong word. But like, yeah,

1288
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:54,160
Speaker 3: there are people who make a lot of money every

1289
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:58,360
Speaker 3: time things get more violent there, right, And people who

1290
01:11:58,360 --> 01:11:59,400
Speaker 3: are very invested in that.

1291
01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:03,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, and yeah, that's gooulish as fuck.

1292
01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:08,720
Speaker 2: It is, And that's actually all I have. That's a

1293
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:12,759
Speaker 2: good good place to end if any But I hope

1294
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 2: you learned something if you didn't know something in this episode,

1295
01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:19,120
Speaker 2: and I hope you go watch Futterha or God's Fights

1296
01:12:19,160 --> 01:12:21,719
Speaker 2: for Freedom. I don't think this is history that should

1297
01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:25,960
Speaker 2: ever be understated or forgotten, so I'm always more than

1298
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:28,600
Speaker 2: happy to talk about it, even if it's depressing. So

1299
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:31,000
Speaker 2: thank you for joining me today, James.

1300
01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:32,839
Speaker 4: It's okay, it's been very uplifting.

1301
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:35,559
Speaker 3: I don't be all right. It's important. It's it's very important.

1302
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:38,479
Speaker 3: Hopefully one day we'll have the PK Gaza episode.

1303
01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:39,760
Speaker 2: Yes, that'll be great.

1304
01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:40,759
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1305
01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:43,400
Speaker 3: I guess if you're in the UK and have old

1306
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:47,360
Speaker 3: copies of Men's Health, you can read about young people

1307
01:12:47,360 --> 01:12:51,040
Speaker 3: doing parkering Gaza. It's pretty heavy. I will have another

1308
01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:52,320
Speaker 3: story about that soon.

1309
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:52,880
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1310
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:55,080
Speaker 3: Where should people? I think a good thing. Maybe if

1311
01:12:55,120 --> 01:12:58,840
Speaker 3: we could end on like where, where is a good

1312
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:01,920
Speaker 3: place to find new about Palestine?

1313
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:05,960
Speaker 2: I really like El Jazeera, especially their opinion pieces are

1314
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:08,200
Speaker 2: pretty good because a lot of the times they're written

1315
01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:11,120
Speaker 2: by people that are really passionate about what they're writing.

1316
01:13:12,560 --> 01:13:16,759
Speaker 2: I think following actual Palestinians on social media is always

1317
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:21,640
Speaker 2: a good call. Like hummedal Kurd is one of the

1318
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:25,560
Speaker 2: most prominent voices recently that has been uplifted, and I

1319
01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:27,920
Speaker 2: would follow his social media as his sister has one

1320
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:31,559
Speaker 2: as well. His family's house was basically we had the

1321
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:35,960
Speaker 2: threat of being demolished last year. His house was in

1322
01:13:36,040 --> 01:13:38,760
Speaker 2: Schech if you remembered any of that stuff from last

1323
01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:42,280
Speaker 2: year with the violence going on there. I also really

1324
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:46,800
Speaker 2: like Sobhitaha. He's on Instagram mostly and he has a

1325
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:50,000
Speaker 2: podcast now. I would highly recommend following his stuff. He

1326
01:13:50,120 --> 01:13:55,280
Speaker 2: is so informed and so uh just easy to understand too,

1327
01:13:56,080 --> 01:14:00,479
Speaker 2: So I would watch that And yeah, hummedal Kurt actually

1328
01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:04,880
Speaker 2: was on some news program like like Face the Nation

1329
01:14:05,040 --> 01:14:07,400
Speaker 2: or no, maybe not that, but he was on recently

1330
01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:12,519
Speaker 2: like basically handing the asses of the people that were

1331
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:16,240
Speaker 2: talking to him about Israel and Palestine. Is that the

1332
01:14:16,280 --> 01:14:16,960
Speaker 2: right way to say that.

1333
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:17,360
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1334
01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:20,519
Speaker 2: He was just saying he was he was not willing

1335
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:23,160
Speaker 2: to be talked over and whatever.

1336
01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:26,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, which I like, Yeah, he shouldn't be. My friend

1337
01:14:26,720 --> 01:14:30,280
Speaker 3: Hossam is a photographer in Palestine. Most of those Alda

1338
01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:34,400
Speaker 3: Zerra pieces you'll see are his photographs. Actually, well Sam

1339
01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:40,200
Speaker 3: Salem g He's photograph we've worked together before. But yeah,

1340
01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:42,200
Speaker 3: if you if you're a person who'd like to see pictures,

1341
01:14:43,160 --> 01:14:44,120
Speaker 3: his pictures are very good.

1342
01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:47,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point too. Also, there are a

1343
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:50,800
Speaker 2: lot of accounts that are solely about Palestine, and a

1344
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:53,679
Speaker 2: lot of these Palestine activists follow them and share them,

1345
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:57,760
Speaker 2: so you will find more organizations by following them. There

1346
01:14:57,840 --> 01:15:02,560
Speaker 2: is I for Palestine, there's I think it's like land Palestine.

1347
01:15:02,840 --> 01:15:06,880
Speaker 2: Like I think there's a lot of really trusted accounts

1348
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:09,320
Speaker 2: on the Internet. You have to find the ones that

1349
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:13,840
Speaker 2: are trusted, and a lot of times it's stuff from

1350
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:15,679
Speaker 2: the ground and that's the stuff that needs to be

1351
01:15:16,760 --> 01:15:20,920
Speaker 2: seen and shared. Because if there's going to be any

1352
01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:24,800
Speaker 2: upside to fucking internet and social media, it has to

1353
01:15:24,840 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 2: be to spread stuff like this around and make sure

1354
01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:29,840
Speaker 2: people know about it.

1355
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:30,280
Speaker 10: I don't know.

1356
01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:34,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it gives us a way to like

1357
01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 3: get underneath that like hegemonic narrative and see what happens

1358
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:39,439
Speaker 3: to real people every day.

1359
01:15:40,040 --> 01:15:40,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1360
01:15:41,000 --> 01:16:14,360
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's that's all, okay, whatever, that's the episode by.

1361
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:04,840
Speaker 10: Hey and welcome to another episode of It Could Happen

1362
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:09,680
Speaker 10: here with me Andrew of the YouTube channel Andrews and

1363
01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:12,600
Speaker 10: I'm joined today by It's me.

1364
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:17,360
Speaker 3: It's just James today, Just James. That's like a cringe

1365
01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:18,560
Speaker 3: from the nineties.

1366
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:24,600
Speaker 10: Really, I was not aware, just sort of curiosity. James,

1367
01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:27,800
Speaker 10: do you play any Paradox Games?

1368
01:16:28,400 --> 01:16:29,920
Speaker 4: I don't. I don't know what that is.

1369
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:33,160
Speaker 3: I don't think a type of computer game.

1370
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:38,240
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, that was well, it's like a game development company,

1371
01:16:38,240 --> 01:16:40,400
Speaker 10: and also they also distribute games as well.

1372
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:44,960
Speaker 3: Okay, you've hit an area about which I have very

1373
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:45,720
Speaker 3: little knowledge in.

1374
01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:51,160
Speaker 10: Yeah, and by the way, this isn't sponsored, it's just uh,

1375
01:16:51,320 --> 01:16:55,040
Speaker 10: it's how I ended up stumbling upon this topic. Right, Okay,

1376
01:16:55,320 --> 01:16:57,080
Speaker 10: so just you know, hearing me for a second year.

1377
01:16:57,200 --> 01:17:00,800
Speaker 10: So where the Paradox Games is Crusader Kings three?

1378
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:02,160
Speaker 3: Right?

1379
01:17:02,280 --> 01:17:06,200
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, it's okay.

1380
01:17:06,360 --> 01:17:08,679
Speaker 3: You know, I'm already infitted to see where this goes.

1381
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:14,599
Speaker 10: So, yes, it's a medieval grand strategy game. It's sort

1382
01:17:14,640 --> 01:17:21,160
Speaker 10: of like it's it's a combination of like those classic

1383
01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:24,400
Speaker 10: sort of well grand strategy games I know, also a

1384
01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:29,160
Speaker 10: bit of sims flail. You're playing as a character and

1385
01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:32,720
Speaker 10: you're also playing as that character's dynasty, so you'll be fit.

1386
01:17:32,840 --> 01:17:35,360
Speaker 10: You play as the grandfather, and then the father, and

1387
01:17:35,360 --> 01:17:38,080
Speaker 10: then the son, and then the grandson, and so on

1388
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:44,599
Speaker 10: and so forth, and so I actually, if you can't tell,

1389
01:17:44,640 --> 01:17:47,559
Speaker 10: I play the game sometimes a little bit too much,

1390
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:50,840
Speaker 10: but I appreciate the role playing. The setting a set

1391
01:17:50,880 --> 01:17:54,439
Speaker 10: between either eight sixty seven or ten sixty six and

1392
01:17:54,520 --> 01:17:57,400
Speaker 10: fourteen fifty three, which is considered the end of the

1393
01:17:57,400 --> 01:18:05,080
Speaker 10: medieval era due to fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans. Yeah,

1394
01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:07,040
Speaker 10: so you know, at a certain point and playing the game,

1395
01:18:07,080 --> 01:18:09,479
Speaker 10: after I've played in pretty much every corner of the map,

1396
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:13,360
Speaker 10: I was looking for a new religious movement to spread

1397
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:16,400
Speaker 10: across the map for fun. Of course, this is something

1398
01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:19,639
Speaker 10: I do with my free time. And I started reading

1399
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:22,519
Speaker 10: about all these different strands of Islam that they have

1400
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:26,120
Speaker 10: in the game, like the Commasians and the Ebadis and

1401
01:18:26,240 --> 01:18:29,599
Speaker 10: the Sufreez. Yeah, and that led me to stumble across

1402
01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:35,200
Speaker 10: the move Tasialism and the Naja Dad. And please bailed

1403
01:18:35,200 --> 01:18:38,840
Speaker 10: me with the pronunciations of everything about to pronouncing this episode,

1404
01:18:39,800 --> 01:18:45,840
Speaker 10: but move Tassilism and the Naja Dad. I started digging

1405
01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:47,200
Speaker 10: into this stuff and that led me to make the

1406
01:18:47,240 --> 01:18:52,479
Speaker 10: decision to talk about what I've been learning before I begin.

1407
01:18:52,800 --> 01:18:58,160
Speaker 10: I know, even the idea of religious anarchisms is somewhat controversial,

1408
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:01,880
Speaker 10: particularly they describe and see between the anarchist slogan of

1409
01:19:02,120 --> 01:19:05,120
Speaker 10: no gods, no masters, and of course the history of

1410
01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:12,160
Speaker 10: various faith based class struggles. MY stance on it is complicated,

1411
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:15,200
Speaker 10: But whatever my stances, I don't think we could deny

1412
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:18,759
Speaker 10: the reality that religious anarchisms have existed in the past

1413
01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:20,400
Speaker 10: and still exists today.

1414
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:23,920
Speaker 3: Now I'm really interested in this, I'm I'm just I'm

1415
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:28,680
Speaker 3: working on a book at the minute about anarchists at

1416
01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:34,800
Speaker 3: war or I guess how anarchism meets war, and people

1417
01:19:34,880 --> 01:19:39,760
Speaker 3: variously sort of defining out anarchism narrowly and widely. I

1418
01:19:39,400 --> 01:19:41,640
Speaker 3: grew up in the early two thousands, I guess, with

1419
01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:44,240
Speaker 3: like the kind of new anarchists, as Greber called it,

1420
01:19:45,280 --> 01:19:50,960
Speaker 3: and they were always amongst that broader movement opposed to

1421
01:19:50,960 --> 01:19:54,639
Speaker 3: like neoliberal globalization. There were always religious people, and I'm

1422
01:19:54,640 --> 01:19:58,559
Speaker 3: not a religious person, And I went to a school

1423
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:01,599
Speaker 3: where there was a priest, and the priest had been

1424
01:20:02,240 --> 01:20:04,839
Speaker 3: a member of the anti apartheid movement in South Africa

1425
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:09,280
Speaker 3: and was wanted there and had left for doing violence

1426
01:20:09,280 --> 01:20:13,120
Speaker 3: to get which, like it's pretty based and so like

1427
01:20:13,160 --> 01:20:14,360
Speaker 3: I have a lot of time for a lot of

1428
01:20:14,439 --> 01:20:18,280
Speaker 3: religious people, it's always been kind of an area of

1429
01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:22,880
Speaker 3: I guess interest to me this like religious anarchisms.

1430
01:20:23,520 --> 01:20:30,200
Speaker 10: Yeah, it certainly it has a very eventful history. Yeah,

1431
01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:33,280
Speaker 10: so I wanted to talk a bit about the rather

1432
01:20:33,320 --> 01:20:37,760
Speaker 10: interesting history of just one tradition. Although the whole thing

1433
01:20:37,800 --> 01:20:40,000
Speaker 10: about the anarchism and I'm going to be discussing is

1434
01:20:40,040 --> 01:20:44,439
Speaker 10: that I wouldn't really call it anarchism, not at least

1435
01:20:44,439 --> 01:20:49,240
Speaker 10: not by our standards. Yeah, it's more of a distinct

1436
01:20:49,439 --> 01:20:55,040
Speaker 10: and notable resistance to centralized authority or a minimization and

1437
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:59,120
Speaker 10: decentralization of that authority. I think it's morek into like

1438
01:20:59,560 --> 01:21:03,240
Speaker 10: a mini archism than an actual anarchism. Sure, right, but

1439
01:21:03,960 --> 01:21:08,320
Speaker 10: it's still interesting to see I guess, the seeds of

1440
01:21:08,320 --> 01:21:10,799
Speaker 10: anti authoritarianism through history.

1441
01:21:10,880 --> 01:21:12,200
Speaker 4: Right.

1442
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:14,639
Speaker 10: So these particular movements, they have a sort of an

1443
01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:19,280
Speaker 10: anti Khalif, Khalif being the religious leader in Islam, they

1444
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:22,799
Speaker 10: have a kind of an anti Khalif action that expanded

1445
01:21:22,880 --> 01:21:29,080
Speaker 10: into a broader philosophical and political conclusions. So we can

1446
01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:31,800
Speaker 10: start in the city of Basra in Iraq in the

1447
01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:35,400
Speaker 10: eight hundreds, where a discussion was taking place recording how

1448
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:39,960
Speaker 10: the Uma or Islamic community should respond to a leader

1449
01:21:40,080 --> 01:21:45,400
Speaker 10: of the Abbasid Caliphate would become corrupt and tyrannical. Now,

1450
01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:47,680
Speaker 10: the two me and stream opinions were that of the

1451
01:21:47,760 --> 01:21:51,120
Speaker 10: activists who believed in stage in a violent revolution to

1452
01:21:51,160 --> 01:21:54,960
Speaker 10: install a new legitimate leader, and the quietists who believed

1453
01:21:55,000 --> 01:22:03,080
Speaker 10: impatiently perseverant under tyranny or passively resistant. It's funny how

1454
01:22:03,080 --> 01:22:11,200
Speaker 10: we see these kind of ideas about change rearing their

1455
01:22:11,200 --> 01:22:14,519
Speaker 10: heads again and again and again throughout history, despite various

1456
01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:17,639
Speaker 10: different contexts. The other people who were like, yeah, let's

1457
01:22:17,640 --> 01:22:19,240
Speaker 10: go get it, and the other people who are like, yeah,

1458
01:22:19,280 --> 01:22:22,120
Speaker 10: let's rock back a little bit and take things with

1459
01:22:22,240 --> 01:22:29,080
Speaker 10: more passively. So that's interesting right now. Abubaka, the guy

1460
01:22:29,120 --> 01:22:32,400
Speaker 10: who was the first caliph, he made it clear in

1461
01:22:32,439 --> 01:22:37,000
Speaker 10: his inauguration that obedience is not incumbent upon his followers

1462
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:40,240
Speaker 10: if he contradicts the will of Allah. And for those

1463
01:22:40,280 --> 01:22:44,120
Speaker 10: who don't know, Allah is God in the Islamic religion.

1464
01:22:45,720 --> 01:22:50,240
Speaker 10: And yet the dominant position in Islam has been the

1465
01:22:50,320 --> 01:22:53,920
Speaker 10: quietest position even to this day, the activist position is

1466
01:22:54,080 --> 01:22:57,200
Speaker 10: less popular. Some would say some people have this idea

1467
01:22:57,240 --> 01:23:00,439
Speaker 10: that the only manifestation of Islam can be the unseen

1468
01:23:00,439 --> 01:23:03,640
Speaker 10: in the autocracies of Western Asia and the Arabian Peninsula.

1469
01:23:04,120 --> 01:23:07,719
Speaker 10: But even back in Islam's Heidi, there were Muslims willing

1470
01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:12,280
Speaker 10: to resist the tyrannical control of even religiously or ordained rulers.

1471
01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:17,920
Speaker 10: So back to Bastra in the eight hundreds, there was

1472
01:23:17,960 --> 01:23:21,120
Speaker 10: also a third category of solutions proposed, which we can

1473
01:23:21,160 --> 01:23:24,200
Speaker 10: call anarchists in the general sense, but not really in

1474
01:23:24,280 --> 01:23:29,240
Speaker 10: the actual sense. Most of the Muslim anarchists believe that

1475
01:23:29,320 --> 01:23:33,000
Speaker 10: society could function without the caliph. They proposed a kind

1476
01:23:33,040 --> 01:23:37,519
Speaker 10: of evolutionary anarchism where private property was not abolished per se,

1477
01:23:38,080 --> 01:23:41,960
Speaker 10: but because the ruler was considered illegitimate, the titles of

1478
01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:46,559
Speaker 10: property the ruler granted would also be considered illegitimate. They

1479
01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:49,479
Speaker 10: also argue that the caliph must be agreed upon by

1480
01:23:49,520 --> 01:23:53,320
Speaker 10: the entire community, which is no easy task considering how

1481
01:23:53,439 --> 01:23:58,160
Speaker 10: Islam divided between Sunnis and Shia's almost immediately after the

1482
01:23:58,160 --> 01:24:04,759
Speaker 10: prophet Muhammad died. However, without this consensus, no logismate clief

1483
01:24:04,760 --> 01:24:07,280
Speaker 10: could exist, and it was widely accepted that a lot

1484
01:24:07,400 --> 01:24:11,200
Speaker 10: did not impose obligations that were impossible to fulfill. So

1485
01:24:11,240 --> 01:24:14,000
Speaker 10: then it was reason that then there was really no

1486
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:17,760
Speaker 10: obligation to establish legitimate clief if no consensus could be found,

1487
01:24:18,439 --> 01:24:22,320
Speaker 10: there's a little loopool. Basically, we need full consensus. We're

1488
01:24:22,360 --> 01:24:25,320
Speaker 10: never gonna get full consensus. Oh well, shrug, you.

1489
01:24:25,280 --> 01:24:27,160
Speaker 3: Know, yeah.

1490
01:24:27,560 --> 01:24:31,120
Speaker 10: And then in the time, in the contextbe this is,

1491
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:37,280
Speaker 10: you know, medieval times, you're seeing a lot more. You're

1492
01:24:37,320 --> 01:24:41,120
Speaker 10: seeing several different political configurations and formations and ways of

1493
01:24:41,240 --> 01:24:44,280
Speaker 10: organizing society. So some of them at the time, we

1494
01:24:44,280 --> 01:24:47,400
Speaker 10: were seeing their neighbors, the Bedwinds, and the bed Winds

1495
01:24:47,439 --> 01:24:50,719
Speaker 10: were living without rulers like normal. So they were like, well,

1496
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:54,680
Speaker 10: why can't we live without rulers like normal? And so

1497
01:24:54,720 --> 01:24:58,400
Speaker 10: they use that as a justification as well. And so

1498
01:24:58,400 --> 01:25:03,200
Speaker 10: they also had many proposed ranging from a radical decentralization

1499
01:25:03,280 --> 01:25:07,599
Speaker 10: of public authority to a complete disillusion of public authority.

1500
01:25:08,400 --> 01:25:13,040
Speaker 10: One particular genre proposals involved replacing the calief with elected officials,

1501
01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:17,080
Speaker 10: either completely independent of each other or join together in

1502
01:25:17,080 --> 01:25:20,639
Speaker 10: a federation, and these elected officials would be temporary and

1503
01:25:20,880 --> 01:25:24,040
Speaker 10: only remain in office when legal disputes arose or when

1504
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:27,000
Speaker 10: an enemy invaded. When the problem was resolved, they would

1505
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:32,760
Speaker 10: lose their position and society would return to quote unquote anarchy.

1506
01:25:33,560 --> 01:25:36,519
Speaker 10: There was even a minority sect which calls for the

1507
01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:40,280
Speaker 10: complete abolition of the state, called it Nashda, and they

1508
01:25:40,400 --> 01:25:43,200
Speaker 10: argue that if there wasn't sufficient agreement establish this in

1509
01:25:43,280 --> 01:25:45,960
Speaker 10: a clief, there can never be enough to establish law

1510
01:25:46,040 --> 01:25:51,400
Speaker 10: at all. They wanted not just political independence, but intellectual independence,

1511
01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:54,599
Speaker 10: because according to them, individuals should be able to reason

1512
01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:58,080
Speaker 10: for themselves and have no one above them but Allah.

1513
01:25:58,880 --> 01:26:05,120
Speaker 10: Basically the religious anarchist slogan one God, no masters.

1514
01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:09,639
Speaker 12: Yeah, right, but we'll get a twisted of course, all

1515
01:26:09,640 --> 01:26:14,280
Speaker 12: this radical stuff apply to them within their group alone,

1516
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:16,479
Speaker 12: So if you weren't part of their group, you could

1517
01:26:16,520 --> 01:26:17,840
Speaker 12: still be enslaved or killed.

1518
01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:23,880
Speaker 10: So it's kind of a selective, yeah, it's a bit

1519
01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:31,360
Speaker 10: selective in their freedom mindedness. Then in eight seventeen, so

1520
01:26:31,439 --> 01:26:34,360
Speaker 10: a couple of years later, the center of religious power

1521
01:26:34,400 --> 01:26:38,160
Speaker 10: and the Muslim world collapsed with the fall of Baghdad.

1522
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:42,760
Speaker 10: The chaos of civil war ensued, but in the absence

1523
01:26:42,880 --> 01:26:46,920
Speaker 10: of public authority, they would naturally emerge an order out

1524
01:26:46,920 --> 01:26:49,960
Speaker 10: of the chaos without central planet. As we've seen it

1525
01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:53,799
Speaker 10: again and again and again throughout history, people self organized

1526
01:26:53,800 --> 01:26:57,720
Speaker 10: to protect themselves and their positions collectively in times of

1527
01:26:57,800 --> 01:27:01,040
Speaker 10: natural disaster, in times of crisis, people come together without

1528
01:27:01,080 --> 01:27:04,080
Speaker 10: having a state, having without a state having to organize

1529
01:27:04,080 --> 01:27:05,920
Speaker 10: them and tell them what to do and how to

1530
01:27:05,960 --> 01:27:09,720
Speaker 10: do it. Yeah, such has been the case for centuries.

1531
01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:12,800
Speaker 10: And speaking of centuries, we're going to jump ahead a

1532
01:27:12,800 --> 01:27:15,439
Speaker 10: little bit to the twelfth century where we could see

1533
01:27:15,439 --> 01:27:20,080
Speaker 10: a sort of a pseudo nihilist anarchist movement called the Kalandaria,

1534
01:27:20,760 --> 01:27:25,680
Speaker 10: a movement of wandering ascetic Sufi dervishes from Andalusia and

1535
01:27:25,720 --> 01:27:31,120
Speaker 10: Spain to Iran, Central Asia, India, and Pakistan. Many of

1536
01:27:31,120 --> 01:27:36,360
Speaker 10: the Khalandaria had body persons and tattoos, in explicit defiance

1537
01:27:36,400 --> 01:27:41,080
Speaker 10: of Islamic traditions that regarded such practices as haram. Here's

1538
01:27:41,080 --> 01:27:43,839
Speaker 10: a bit of an interesting story. One of the earlier

1539
01:27:44,240 --> 01:27:47,880
Speaker 10: divisions of the Malatimir was once being followed by a

1540
01:27:47,920 --> 01:27:52,559
Speaker 10: crowd of admirers, and in reaction to their praise, he paused,

1541
01:27:53,479 --> 01:28:00,760
Speaker 10: pulled out his pep and urinated on the ground. Is

1542
01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:03,800
Speaker 10: a sort of a ratic It's almost like what seems

1543
01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:04,360
Speaker 10: like Greek guy.

1544
01:28:05,600 --> 01:28:11,639
Speaker 3: Oh, the one who like dies because of the d diogenies, right,

1545
01:28:12,240 --> 01:28:15,160
Speaker 3: so he kind kind kind of like a Muslim.

1546
01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:20,439
Speaker 10: Dirogenis a sort of a rejection of society and rejection

1547
01:28:20,560 --> 01:28:23,200
Speaker 10: of its values. As a lot of people, a lot

1548
01:28:23,200 --> 01:28:27,400
Speaker 10: of these divisies, they choose voluntary poverty and nudism as

1549
01:28:27,439 --> 01:28:32,000
Speaker 10: a lifestyle. They were reject civilization. They would have a

1550
01:28:32,400 --> 01:28:37,040
Speaker 10: sort of an active nihilism and director of society. One

1551
01:28:37,080 --> 01:28:40,960
Speaker 10: of them has been quoted in saying an effect that

1552
01:28:41,280 --> 01:28:45,200
Speaker 10: money is well. I don't know if I could say

1553
01:28:45,200 --> 01:28:49,600
Speaker 10: that before he crossed that out. I think we I

1554
01:28:49,640 --> 01:28:53,759
Speaker 10: think we get, we get the get the idea of course,

1555
01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:58,200
Speaker 10: again not really anarchism in the classical sense, so in

1556
01:28:59,479 --> 01:29:11,680
Speaker 10: an actual sense, but manifestation of one trend within or

1557
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:16,120
Speaker 10: one streak within an anarchist movement. Steak jumphead against the

1558
01:29:16,240 --> 01:29:21,400
Speaker 10: nineteenth century. Now with perhaps the first anarchist to convert

1559
01:29:21,400 --> 01:29:26,400
Speaker 10: to Islam, Ivan Aguelli born in Sweden in eighteen sixty nine.

1560
01:29:27,479 --> 01:29:32,479
Speaker 10: Aguilli was interested in philosophy, spirituality, ideology and literature, and

1561
01:29:32,520 --> 01:29:38,960
Speaker 10: he explored new ideas ravenously. He joined the Theosophical Society

1562
01:29:39,000 --> 01:29:42,840
Speaker 10: in France and he met anarchist philosopher Peter Kropotkin in

1563
01:29:42,840 --> 01:29:45,840
Speaker 10: London in eighteen ninety one. He also began reading the

1564
01:29:45,960 --> 01:29:50,080
Speaker 10: Quran around in eighteen ninety two and invited Islam in

1565
01:29:50,120 --> 01:29:54,160
Speaker 10: eighteen ninety seven. And GWELLI wrote about Islam and anarchism

1566
01:29:54,360 --> 01:30:00,519
Speaker 10: fairly frequently, but he didn't really connect them together. However,

1567
01:30:01,360 --> 01:30:07,679
Speaker 10: there was another one, another anarchist to convinced Islam, Isabelle Everhart.

1568
01:30:08,800 --> 01:30:11,559
Speaker 10: She Grubb in Geneva and converted to Islam around eighteen

1569
01:30:11,600 --> 01:30:15,360
Speaker 10: ninety six or ninety seven, and she challenged both Eastern

1570
01:30:15,479 --> 01:30:19,960
Speaker 10: and Western norms through her writings and practice practice, pursuing

1571
01:30:20,040 --> 01:30:24,000
Speaker 10: a nomadic lifestyle in Nigeria, joining a Sufi order and

1572
01:30:24,080 --> 01:30:27,639
Speaker 10: expressing her unconventional spirit by dressing as a male when

1573
01:30:27,680 --> 01:30:30,439
Speaker 10: she felt like, taking on a male name, and pursuing

1574
01:30:30,439 --> 01:30:36,960
Speaker 10: a lifestyle of purported promiscuity, journalism, smoking kief, and journeying

1575
01:30:37,000 --> 01:30:42,040
Speaker 10: across the North African desert by horse. I think she

1576
01:30:42,080 --> 01:30:45,559
Speaker 10: would also be considered a figure of queer anarchist history.

1577
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:50,560
Speaker 10: I wasn't able to find anything about how she identified personally,

1578
01:30:50,680 --> 01:30:57,360
Speaker 10: but apparently so. I don't know if she was a

1579
01:30:57,360 --> 01:31:02,040
Speaker 10: cross dresser or if she was tramps or something else entirely.

1580
01:31:02,800 --> 01:31:06,320
Speaker 3: Right, Like you get especially in that period, like like

1581
01:31:06,439 --> 01:31:09,600
Speaker 3: misogyny is is so rampant that like it could be

1582
01:31:09,680 --> 01:31:13,920
Speaker 3: necessary to like, I guess, to present as male even

1583
01:31:13,960 --> 01:31:17,120
Speaker 3: if you weren't like trans in you and gender identity,

1584
01:31:17,160 --> 01:31:20,040
Speaker 3: just to have access to things that were constrained I

1585
01:31:20,080 --> 01:31:21,760
Speaker 3: don't know, like delimited as mets.

1586
01:31:21,960 --> 01:31:24,400
Speaker 4: Rightly, Yeah, exactly makes sense.

1587
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:27,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I think it's why it's to just be like,

1588
01:31:27,439 --> 01:31:30,320
Speaker 3: we don't know, rather than to necessarily like like claim

1589
01:31:30,360 --> 01:31:33,000
Speaker 3: to someone's identity stuff when what we know is their

1590
01:31:33,040 --> 01:31:34,000
Speaker 3: presentation stuff.

1591
01:31:35,000 --> 01:31:41,519
Speaker 10: Agreed. Also, during this time in the Ottoman Empire, there

1592
01:31:41,600 --> 01:31:47,040
Speaker 10: was a not insignificant population of European anarchists, mostly Italians,

1593
01:31:47,600 --> 01:31:51,240
Speaker 10: you know. Alexandria alone, there were approximately twelve thousand Italians

1594
01:31:51,240 --> 01:31:54,280
Speaker 10: living and working, often in the building sector. By eighteen

1595
01:31:54,280 --> 01:31:57,320
Speaker 10: seventy six anarchists they had organized a branch of the

1596
01:31:57,439 --> 01:32:02,000
Speaker 10: Cyndicalist International Workers Association, and in the early eighteen hundreds

1597
01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:05,720
Speaker 10: at Coomara, Testa and other Italian anarchists joined the Urabia

1598
01:32:05,760 --> 01:32:08,280
Speaker 10: Prize in against the British, and this was perhaps the

1599
01:32:08,320 --> 01:32:12,400
Speaker 10: first time that Muslims anarchists fought a military campaign side

1600
01:32:12,439 --> 01:32:17,439
Speaker 10: by side other uprising was squashed. Anarchists were less harassed

1601
01:32:17,439 --> 01:32:20,520
Speaker 10: in the Ottoman Empire than in many other parts of Europe.

1602
01:32:22,560 --> 01:32:26,160
Speaker 10: Later on, in nineteen oh one, anarchists co founded a

1603
01:32:26,200 --> 01:32:32,360
Speaker 10: free popular university, the University Popularity Libre or UPL, in Alexandria.

1604
01:32:32,680 --> 01:32:35,880
Speaker 10: It provided free courses on subjects like tool stories and

1605
01:32:36,080 --> 01:32:41,720
Speaker 10: Cunan's ideas, the arts, pragmatic topics like working negotiation strategies,

1606
01:32:41,800 --> 01:32:45,920
Speaker 10: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. However, common if you

1607
01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:52,360
Speaker 10: were indigenous to the region, tough luck indigenous muslim and

1608
01:32:52,880 --> 01:32:56,840
Speaker 10: indigenous Muslims and Arabic speakers went really part of the

1609
01:32:56,960 --> 01:33:01,240
Speaker 10: upls program went't really included pretty much marginalized from the

1610
01:33:01,320 --> 01:33:05,000
Speaker 10: education entirely, and the UPL crash became more and more

1611
01:33:05,120 --> 01:33:12,920
Speaker 10: aimed toward and controlled by upper class interests. So that sucks.

1612
01:33:14,120 --> 01:33:16,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a fair yeah, lame.

1613
01:33:17,680 --> 01:33:20,840
Speaker 10: Very lame. Yeah, a lot of disappointments in this episode,

1614
01:33:20,960 --> 01:33:24,000
Speaker 10: people who are like nearly there and then kind of

1615
01:33:24,000 --> 01:33:30,400
Speaker 10: there of course. Yeah, but that's that's that's part of history, right,

1616
01:33:31,800 --> 01:33:35,519
Speaker 10: jumping head even more in the twentieth century. We got

1617
01:33:35,520 --> 01:33:38,120
Speaker 10: to see the fall of the Caliphate in nineteen twenty

1618
01:33:38,120 --> 01:33:43,640
Speaker 10: four and the two new influential currents of Salafiism or Slafism,

1619
01:33:44,080 --> 01:33:47,799
Speaker 10: the Muslim Brotherhood which is known for their social democratic lenans,

1620
01:33:48,320 --> 01:33:52,280
Speaker 10: and the Saudis, who are known for their monarchic venus.

1621
01:33:54,160 --> 01:33:56,800
Speaker 4: To put it likely, Yeah, that's even so.

1622
01:33:58,680 --> 01:34:02,840
Speaker 10: Yeah, they as possible yea, yeah, I mean we even

1623
01:34:02,880 --> 01:34:06,360
Speaker 10: so late on a sort of an Islamic liberation theology

1624
01:34:06,840 --> 01:34:11,680
Speaker 10: developing that dismissed bin Ladin and senseless and lifted up

1625
01:34:11,720 --> 01:34:15,000
Speaker 10: the examples of the revolutionary Barbie movement of the eighteen hundreds,

1626
01:34:15,400 --> 01:34:19,360
Speaker 10: Malcolm X and Ali Shariati's quest for a just and

1627
01:34:19,479 --> 01:34:24,320
Speaker 10: classless society. Then there's also a neo Sufi group known

1628
01:34:24,360 --> 01:34:29,479
Speaker 10: as the Murabhutin, the Mura Bhutun and the Inclusive Mosque

1629
01:34:29,479 --> 01:34:33,120
Speaker 10: Initiative in London as other examples of you know, how

1630
01:34:33,240 --> 01:34:38,240
Speaker 10: Islam could be used to resist some Islamic traditions. And

1631
01:34:38,320 --> 01:34:42,280
Speaker 10: there are also several individuals today who have explicitly and

1632
01:34:42,320 --> 01:34:47,120
Speaker 10: publicly self identified as Muslim anarchists, not Muslim and anarchists,

1633
01:34:47,200 --> 01:34:52,799
Speaker 10: but specifically Muslim anarchists, including Ab dinner Pradu and Mohammad

1634
01:34:52,880 --> 01:34:53,920
Speaker 10: jan Venus.

1635
01:34:56,960 --> 01:34:59,960
Speaker 4: That's cool.

1636
01:35:00,040 --> 01:35:06,800
Speaker 10: That's a sort of a basic rundown. But I think

1637
01:35:06,840 --> 01:35:10,800
Speaker 10: inevitably with these sort of topics you sort of fraught ideas,

1638
01:35:11,200 --> 01:35:14,400
Speaker 10: something like an Islamic anarchism, they're going to be some

1639
01:35:14,640 --> 01:35:19,519
Speaker 10: challenges and criticisms, right, Yeah, I'd like for one, you know,

1640
01:35:19,560 --> 01:35:24,000
Speaker 10: it's a fairly new concept, the idea of Islamic anarchism.

1641
01:35:24,320 --> 01:35:27,040
Speaker 10: Like I went over, there were certain trends that can

1642
01:35:27,120 --> 01:35:33,200
Speaker 10: be described as an archic, iphibian, generous, but the idea

1643
01:35:33,240 --> 01:35:37,120
Speaker 10: of Islamic anarchism as the something going out of after

1644
01:35:37,200 --> 01:35:41,440
Speaker 10: development of anarchism and through anarchism as a political philosophy,

1645
01:35:42,080 --> 01:35:45,040
Speaker 10: it's fairly new and it challenges a lot of the

1646
01:35:45,080 --> 01:35:49,959
Speaker 10: traditional Islamic teachings on authority and governance. So some scholars

1647
01:35:50,040 --> 01:35:56,280
Speaker 10: practitioners have pointed out that with the emphasis of social order,

1648
01:35:56,560 --> 01:35:58,680
Speaker 10: the emphasis of authority of the state in the role

1649
01:35:58,760 --> 01:36:03,160
Speaker 10: of law, this idea of rejecting hierarchy and authority as

1650
01:36:03,200 --> 01:36:09,880
Speaker 10: advocated by Islamic anarchists is you know, heretical practically. There's

1651
01:36:09,920 --> 01:36:14,760
Speaker 10: also some criticism that with Islamic anarchisms rejection of all

1652
01:36:14,840 --> 01:36:19,559
Speaker 10: forms of authority in hierarchy, it undermines the concept of tweed,

1653
01:36:19,600 --> 01:36:24,880
Speaker 10: which is the belief in the oneness of God, and

1654
01:36:24,920 --> 01:36:28,040
Speaker 10: by you know, rejecting that by undermining that concept and

1655
01:36:28,160 --> 01:36:32,400
Speaker 10: promoting individualism and self rule, it sort of goes against

1656
01:36:32,560 --> 01:36:35,720
Speaker 10: that teaching. Of course, like I mentioned earlier, there's also

1657
01:36:35,800 --> 01:36:40,040
Speaker 10: this challenge to the idea that Islamic anarchism or Islamic

1658
01:36:40,080 --> 01:36:43,360
Speaker 10: anarchism could be compatible because of the slogan and no cause,

1659
01:36:43,439 --> 01:36:50,919
Speaker 10: no masters right. Of course, Islamic anarchists and other Islamic

1660
01:36:50,960 --> 01:36:53,960
Speaker 10: socialists would argue that Islam should be seen as a

1661
01:36:53,960 --> 01:36:56,960
Speaker 10: liberating force that can help individuals achieve freedom from a

1662
01:36:57,000 --> 01:37:00,160
Speaker 10: Prussian exploitation. The same argument is made with a lot

1663
01:37:00,200 --> 01:37:05,080
Speaker 10: of other strands of religious anarchisms as well, and so

1664
01:37:05,240 --> 01:37:09,400
Speaker 10: to bring things to a sort of a close, I'd

1665
01:37:09,439 --> 01:37:13,360
Speaker 10: say that, you know, like every religious anarchism, like every

1666
01:37:13,400 --> 01:37:20,120
Speaker 10: political philosophy, like every religion, like everything, Honestly, people pick

1667
01:37:20,360 --> 01:37:24,040
Speaker 10: and choose, you know, in Islam you can find elements

1668
01:37:24,080 --> 01:37:28,280
Speaker 10: of quietism as well as activism detached to mysticism, as

1669
01:37:28,320 --> 01:37:32,799
Speaker 10: well as pragmatic daily concerns, traditions of violence, and traditions

1670
01:37:32,840 --> 01:37:40,679
Speaker 10: of non violence, moderation, and extremism. In anarchism, tensions exist

1671
01:37:40,760 --> 01:37:47,960
Speaker 10: between pacifism and insurrectionism, cyndicalism and individualism, nationalism and anti nationalism,

1672
01:37:48,360 --> 01:37:55,240
Speaker 10: collectivism and individualism. Again, and I'm not a Muslim, I'm

1673
01:37:55,280 --> 01:37:58,320
Speaker 10: not a religious anarchist of any variety.

1674
01:37:58,640 --> 01:37:58,800
Speaker 4: But.

1675
01:38:00,720 --> 01:38:06,320
Speaker 10: I think that there is room for even if I

1676
01:38:06,400 --> 01:38:12,080
Speaker 10: may not agree with it in all cases the conclusions

1677
01:38:12,200 --> 01:38:15,439
Speaker 10: some people draw. I think there's room for these sorts

1678
01:38:15,479 --> 01:38:19,120
Speaker 10: of dialogues to be had. I think there's room for

1679
01:38:19,360 --> 01:38:25,240
Speaker 10: exploration to the history of all sorts of historical movements

1680
01:38:25,320 --> 01:38:30,599
Speaker 10: and ideologies and religions and ideas, because I mean, there's

1681
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:35,479
Speaker 10: a whole legacy of billions of people who have lived

1682
01:38:35,479 --> 01:38:38,280
Speaker 10: and died long before us, and I think I find

1683
01:38:38,280 --> 01:38:43,000
Speaker 10: it interesting, at least as a thought exercise, to see

1684
01:38:43,479 --> 01:38:45,760
Speaker 10: how they came to their conclusions as well. So I

1685
01:38:45,800 --> 01:38:50,920
Speaker 10: hope this episode was thought provoking, enlightening and interesting to

1686
01:38:51,640 --> 01:38:52,920
Speaker 10: those who tuned in.

1687
01:38:54,120 --> 01:38:55,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was good.

1688
01:38:55,360 --> 01:38:57,519
Speaker 3: It's always interesting to see these Yeah, like, we don't

1689
01:38:57,520 --> 01:38:59,839
Speaker 3: have to agree with all of it, but it's interesting

1690
01:38:59,880 --> 01:39:02,720
Speaker 3: to see where people come at these things from. It

1691
01:39:02,840 --> 01:39:05,240
Speaker 3: was I was wondering if you were going to get

1692
01:39:05,280 --> 01:39:07,840
Speaker 3: to or not. But like one of the things that

1693
01:39:07,880 --> 01:39:12,240
Speaker 3: you saw in the Spanish like not really the Civil

1694
01:39:12,280 --> 01:39:15,040
Speaker 3: War as much, but in the Second Republic was the

1695
01:39:15,120 --> 01:39:21,160
Speaker 3: socialists and like left liberals explicitly selling out like Moroccan

1696
01:39:21,960 --> 01:39:25,880
Speaker 3: Muslim people and North African people more generally whatever their faith,

1697
01:39:25,920 --> 01:39:29,439
Speaker 3: and anarchists being like, no, we should express solidarity with

1698
01:39:29,479 --> 01:39:32,599
Speaker 3: these people, like even if we if they are aren't

1699
01:39:32,600 --> 01:39:34,760
Speaker 3: and some of them were part of like they were

1700
01:39:34,720 --> 01:39:38,720
Speaker 3: anarchists in Spanish North Africa of course, but like even

1701
01:39:38,760 --> 01:39:42,080
Speaker 3: if they weren't, being like, we should oppose colonialism, and

1702
01:39:43,000 --> 01:39:46,519
Speaker 3: when every other kind of left stripe didn't, it's kind

1703
01:39:46,520 --> 01:39:49,519
Speaker 3: of one of the failing sort of public not to So, yeah,

1704
01:39:49,520 --> 01:39:51,559
Speaker 3: they've been these conversations, I guess for a long time.

1705
01:39:51,640 --> 01:39:54,360
Speaker 3: Like it was interesting to hear about those Sufi's in

1706
01:39:54,400 --> 01:39:57,920
Speaker 3: Spain and think about how long those conversations have been

1707
01:39:57,920 --> 01:39:58,840
Speaker 3: going back and forth, you.

1708
01:39:58,840 --> 01:40:03,400
Speaker 10: Know, exactly exactly. I think the whole Iberian Peninsula's really

1709
01:40:03,400 --> 01:40:07,160
Speaker 10: interesting reachion in terms of the confluence of cultures. I

1710
01:40:07,160 --> 01:40:11,080
Speaker 10: did miss that particular historical instance in my research with

1711
01:40:11,160 --> 01:40:12,160
Speaker 10: also pointing it out.

1712
01:40:12,520 --> 01:40:14,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, no worries big Nerd for that stuff.

1713
01:40:17,680 --> 01:40:20,200
Speaker 3: Is there anything you'd like to plug before we get Andrew.

1714
01:40:20,960 --> 01:40:25,520
Speaker 10: Sure, sure, so. You can find me on YouTube at andrewism,

1715
01:40:26,680 --> 01:40:31,599
Speaker 10: on patreon dot com slash Saint Drew, and I've logged

1716
01:40:31,720 --> 01:40:36,120
Speaker 10: off of Twitter, but if you want to get updates

1717
01:40:37,080 --> 01:40:40,559
Speaker 10: when I do decide to log in to post updates

1718
01:40:40,560 --> 01:40:43,920
Speaker 10: here and there, you could follow me on Twitter at underscore.

1719
01:40:44,880 --> 01:40:47,120
Speaker 10: Thank you, Andrew, Take care everyone.

1720
01:40:47,240 --> 01:41:07,200
Speaker 1: Peace, Oh boy, Welcome to It could happen here a

1721
01:41:07,320 --> 01:41:12,000
Speaker 1: podcast about things falling apart and sometimes stuff that's less

1722
01:41:12,000 --> 01:41:14,600
Speaker 1: depressing than that. This is gonna be a mix of

1723
01:41:14,640 --> 01:41:18,400
Speaker 1: both of those things. I'm Robert Evans. My co hosts

1724
01:41:18,800 --> 01:41:23,960
Speaker 1: for today are James Stout and Mia Wong. How are

1725
01:41:24,000 --> 01:41:26,800
Speaker 1: we both? How are we all? How's everybody? How's everybody feeling?

1726
01:41:28,080 --> 01:41:33,400
Speaker 3: I'm anticipating eagerly the topic of today's episode, so I'm

1727
01:41:33,400 --> 01:41:36,280
Speaker 3: excited like a kid Christmas. Yeah.

1728
01:41:36,320 --> 01:41:39,400
Speaker 1: So, James, that answers my question for you. But Mia,

1729
01:41:39,439 --> 01:41:41,600
Speaker 1: have you ever heard of Lord Miles Rutledge.

1730
01:41:42,160 --> 01:41:46,559
Speaker 5: I have seen him on Twitter and I cannot express

1731
01:41:46,600 --> 01:41:48,080
Speaker 5: how excited I am for this.

1732
01:41:48,560 --> 01:41:52,439
Speaker 1: So we are talking about a real piece of shit today.

1733
01:41:52,600 --> 01:41:55,560
Speaker 1: This is kind of relevant to our I try to

1734
01:41:55,600 --> 01:41:59,760
Speaker 1: always justify you know, our purview is broadly speaking, collapse,

1735
01:42:00,040 --> 01:42:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, what we call the crumbles, and Miles Rutledge

1736
01:42:03,120 --> 01:42:06,479
Speaker 1: is a perfect example of the kind of grifters and

1737
01:42:06,600 --> 01:42:10,479
Speaker 1: conmen who sort of sort of seep in at the

1738
01:42:10,600 --> 01:42:14,040
Speaker 1: edges of war and disaster and calamity and have for forever,

1739
01:42:14,160 --> 01:42:18,120
Speaker 1: you know, they're in behind the bastards. We've done a

1740
01:42:18,160 --> 01:42:22,200
Speaker 1: couple episodes on like different white people who tried at

1741
01:42:22,240 --> 01:42:25,160
Speaker 1: various points to like conquer Latin American nations, and like

1742
01:42:25,240 --> 01:42:28,760
Speaker 1: the seventeen and eighteen hundreds, just kind of during these

1743
01:42:28,800 --> 01:42:31,240
Speaker 1: periods of there would be a bunch of rebellions going on,

1744
01:42:31,360 --> 01:42:33,439
Speaker 1: and so like some group of mercenaries would be like,

1745
01:42:33,760 --> 01:42:37,520
Speaker 1: I bet we can like steal Nicaragua, right, let's Goways

1746
01:42:37,520 --> 01:42:40,920
Speaker 1: wear the shot. You know, you get these kind of

1747
01:42:41,000 --> 01:42:44,160
Speaker 1: like these kind of people, and Lord Myles Rutledge is

1748
01:42:44,200 --> 01:42:48,040
Speaker 1: sort of the lower body count end of that, but

1749
01:42:48,080 --> 01:42:51,000
Speaker 1: in some ways a lot more frustrating because at least, look,

1750
01:42:51,320 --> 01:42:56,400
Speaker 1: there's there's something respectable about trying to violently conquer another

1751
01:42:56,520 --> 01:42:59,720
Speaker 1: country and then getting murdered yourself. There's at least like

1752
01:42:59,760 --> 01:43:03,360
Speaker 1: a a degree of honesty there. This guy, Miles Rutledge

1753
01:43:03,439 --> 01:43:08,400
Speaker 1: is like purely but like doing war tourism in order

1754
01:43:08,439 --> 01:43:11,160
Speaker 1: to like pump his his TikTok and his Instagram and

1755
01:43:11,160 --> 01:43:14,479
Speaker 1: his YouTube. And I find that worse than like, I

1756
01:43:14,479 --> 01:43:17,080
Speaker 1: don't know those guys who tried to overthrow Venezuela and

1757
01:43:17,120 --> 01:43:22,720
Speaker 1: got captured by fishermen. So they were great, yeah, and

1758
01:43:22,760 --> 01:43:25,519
Speaker 1: then laid in their own piss on camera. Beautiful story,

1759
01:43:25,640 --> 01:43:32,160
Speaker 1: perfect story, took a b begun with them, Such a

1760
01:43:32,200 --> 01:43:36,360
Speaker 1: good story. And this one has a similar this story, thankfully,

1761
01:43:36,360 --> 01:43:38,920
Speaker 1: Miles the story has has a is an ending almost

1762
01:43:39,000 --> 01:43:43,519
Speaker 1: that satisfying. So Miles Rutledge was born on James. Actually,

1763
01:43:43,520 --> 01:43:44,960
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna bring you in for a second.

1764
01:43:45,040 --> 01:43:47,160
Speaker 1: How do I spell this last name? R o U

1765
01:43:47,240 --> 01:43:49,920
Speaker 1: T l E d g E. He's British age.

1766
01:43:50,680 --> 01:43:55,600
Speaker 3: Routledge believe if it's the same as the academic publisher,

1767
01:43:55,800 --> 01:43:58,560
Speaker 3: which which is spelled the same, and then it's Routledge.

1768
01:43:58,600 --> 01:44:00,760
Speaker 3: And look, I don't give a fuck about scary field.

1769
01:44:00,760 --> 01:44:01,960
Speaker 3: Sad to say, have we won?

1770
01:44:02,520 --> 01:44:07,880
Speaker 1: Yeah? Okay, So Miles Routledge was born on September fourteenth,

1771
01:44:08,080 --> 01:44:12,320
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine, probably somewhere near Birmingham. I don't think

1772
01:44:12,320 --> 01:44:15,200
Speaker 1: we have, like like it's just kind of based on shit,

1773
01:44:15,320 --> 01:44:17,839
Speaker 1: he said. But yeah, I don't see why he'd probably

1774
01:44:17,880 --> 01:44:20,559
Speaker 1: he'd lie about that. I don't think people brag about

1775
01:44:20,600 --> 01:44:21,640
Speaker 1: coming from Birmingham.

1776
01:44:21,920 --> 01:44:28,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like yeah, yeah.

1777
01:44:28,800 --> 01:44:33,040
Speaker 1: So unfortunately, thanks to generations of medical advancements, he survived

1778
01:44:33,120 --> 01:44:35,280
Speaker 1: to adulthood. Because he does strike me as the kind

1779
01:44:35,320 --> 01:44:37,240
Speaker 1: of person who wouldn't have done that in like the

1780
01:44:37,280 --> 01:44:40,599
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, he got into the University of I'm gonna

1781
01:44:40,600 --> 01:44:42,160
Speaker 1: need your help here again, James.

1782
01:44:42,000 --> 01:44:45,040
Speaker 4: Lowborough, Luffborough, Luffbrough.

1783
01:44:45,160 --> 01:44:51,679
Speaker 5: Unbelievable. That sounds like an incredibly obscure World War two

1784
01:44:51,800 --> 01:44:53,479
Speaker 5: German aerial division or something.

1785
01:44:53,800 --> 01:44:59,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's like the very Broie section

1786
01:44:59,560 --> 01:45:05,439
Speaker 1: of the So he gets into the University of luft

1787
01:45:05,520 --> 01:45:10,040
Speaker 1: bro as a fucking physics student, or so he says,

1788
01:45:10,120 --> 01:45:12,760
Speaker 1: and sometime within the last two years he got an

1789
01:45:12,760 --> 01:45:15,160
Speaker 1: internship at an investment banking firm.

1790
01:45:16,040 --> 01:45:19,000
Speaker 3: So the guy a kind of guy.

1791
01:45:19,640 --> 01:45:22,719
Speaker 1: He's laser targeted on a career as a giant piece

1792
01:45:22,760 --> 01:45:27,519
Speaker 1: of shit. But I haven't found much in my casual

1793
01:45:27,560 --> 01:45:30,280
Speaker 1: research about his financial situation or how much money he

1794
01:45:30,360 --> 01:45:32,840
Speaker 1: was born into. But I think he was like, I'm

1795
01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:35,160
Speaker 1: gonna guess his parents were at least comfortable because, as

1796
01:45:35,200 --> 01:45:37,719
Speaker 1: a young man still in college, he had the funds

1797
01:45:37,760 --> 01:45:41,720
Speaker 1: to travel pretty extensively, starting in twenty nineteen when he

1798
01:45:41,800 --> 01:45:45,280
Speaker 1: visited the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone. Now, this is one of

1799
01:45:45,320 --> 01:45:47,720
Speaker 1: the most popular destinations in the world for what is

1800
01:45:47,800 --> 01:45:51,519
Speaker 1: called dark tourism, and this is largely this is people

1801
01:45:51,560 --> 01:45:55,240
Speaker 1: who live kind of boring lives otherwise traveling to places

1802
01:45:55,280 --> 01:45:57,800
Speaker 1: that sound scary in order to impress people on like

1803
01:45:57,960 --> 01:46:00,360
Speaker 1: the TikTok or whatever. Now I just said that, but

1804
01:46:00,640 --> 01:46:03,479
Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything wrong. Now, there's like a

1805
01:46:03,760 --> 01:46:06,679
Speaker 1: lot of problems with getting to Chernobyle because of the war,

1806
01:46:06,720 --> 01:46:09,599
Speaker 1: but like prior to the expand innovation, I don't think

1807
01:46:09,600 --> 01:46:12,640
Speaker 1: there's anything wrong with wanting to like see Chernobyle. My

1808
01:46:12,920 --> 01:46:16,559
Speaker 1: thinking on like the ethics of going somewhere dangerous or

1809
01:46:16,560 --> 01:46:20,280
Speaker 1: whatever is like, are you increasing the odds of like

1810
01:46:20,760 --> 01:46:24,760
Speaker 1: causing a problem that diverts medical resources or other resources

1811
01:46:24,800 --> 01:46:28,320
Speaker 1: in a way that like harms people who have no

1812
01:46:28,439 --> 01:46:31,080
Speaker 1: choice in being there? Right, and visiting Chernobyl whatever, You're

1813
01:46:31,120 --> 01:46:35,280
Speaker 1: not really putting anyone at risk, So that's fine. But

1814
01:46:35,479 --> 01:46:38,760
Speaker 1: in may of twenty twenty one, though Miles Rutledge made

1815
01:46:38,760 --> 01:46:40,680
Speaker 1: the decision to plan a trip to somewhere that it

1816
01:46:40,800 --> 01:46:45,719
Speaker 1: was distinctly not fine to visit as a tourist, Afghanistan. Now,

1817
01:46:46,040 --> 01:46:48,080
Speaker 1: he decided to head over there during kind of the

1818
01:46:48,200 --> 01:46:50,720
Speaker 1: end stages of the war. Although if you guys can

1819
01:46:50,760 --> 01:46:56,240
Speaker 1: remember back that far, the collapse of the Afghan government

1820
01:46:56,360 --> 01:46:59,559
Speaker 1: that the United States had backed happened more rapidly than

1821
01:46:59,640 --> 01:47:02,519
Speaker 1: most people had predicted, so it was kind of like

1822
01:47:03,040 --> 01:47:05,240
Speaker 1: less clear I think when he booked his trip that

1823
01:47:05,280 --> 01:47:07,400
Speaker 1: thinks we're going to fall apart quite that quickly.

1824
01:47:08,040 --> 01:47:11,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, humor to feel the same way about that.

1825
01:47:11,560 --> 01:47:15,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So yeah, it's one of those things

1826
01:47:15,160 --> 01:47:19,840
Speaker 1: where like Miles, you know, his plan to go there

1827
01:47:19,960 --> 01:47:21,960
Speaker 1: was again not as like he's not heading there as

1828
01:47:21,960 --> 01:47:24,519
Speaker 1: a journalist. There's not like a story he wants to tell.

1829
01:47:24,560 --> 01:47:27,719
Speaker 1: He's not traveling there for kind of a practical purpose,

1830
01:47:28,080 --> 01:47:30,519
Speaker 1: Like he really does frame this as just he wanted

1831
01:47:30,560 --> 01:47:32,840
Speaker 1: to go on vacation, and he wanted to go on

1832
01:47:32,960 --> 01:47:36,320
Speaker 1: vacation specifically for what I think is probably like the

1833
01:47:36,400 --> 01:47:40,280
Speaker 1: dumbest reason I've ever heard of anyone choosing of a

1834
01:47:40,479 --> 01:47:45,160
Speaker 1: vacation location, especially choosing fucking Afghanistan as a vacation location.

1835
01:47:45,240 --> 01:47:47,240
Speaker 1: I'm going to play a clip from one of his

1836
01:47:47,800 --> 01:47:48,719
Speaker 1: YouTube videos.

1837
01:47:48,760 --> 01:47:50,960
Speaker 5: Now, why am I in Afghanistan?

1838
01:47:51,000 --> 01:47:52,160
Speaker 4: Well, that's a really good question.

1839
01:47:52,280 --> 01:47:56,080
Speaker 5: During COVID lockdowns. Afghanistan's only open without a vaccine man date,

1840
01:47:56,160 --> 01:47:57,000
Speaker 5: So I just think.

1841
01:47:58,000 --> 01:48:01,840
Speaker 3: I've never heard his voice before. I'm more angry now.

1842
01:48:04,760 --> 01:48:09,000
Speaker 1: To Afghanistan because they don't have a fucking vaccine mandate.

1843
01:48:09,840 --> 01:48:15,160
Speaker 4: Oh my fucking real warrior for freedom.

1844
01:48:15,520 --> 01:48:23,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, just the just the dumbest idiot. I hate him.

1845
01:48:23,320 --> 01:48:26,680
Speaker 1: So anyway, as a result of wanting to avoid the

1846
01:48:26,760 --> 01:48:30,200
Speaker 1: vaccine mandate, Miles joined the long and historic line of

1847
01:48:30,280 --> 01:48:32,800
Speaker 1: young British Men who have gone out to Afghanistan on

1848
01:48:32,840 --> 01:48:36,519
Speaker 1: a lark. Unfortunately, unlike many of them, Miles would survive

1849
01:48:36,600 --> 01:48:39,920
Speaker 1: his adventure. He does not seem to have a regular

1850
01:48:39,960 --> 01:48:43,280
Speaker 1: Wikipedia yet, but he does have an entry on something

1851
01:48:43,320 --> 01:48:48,360
Speaker 1: called everybody Wiki, which yeah, yeah, which I hadn't heard

1852
01:48:48,360 --> 01:48:52,719
Speaker 1: it that one before, but it's it very hilariously lists

1853
01:48:52,760 --> 01:48:56,559
Speaker 1: his occupation as quote, posting online during the twenty twenty

1854
01:48:56,560 --> 01:48:57,639
Speaker 1: one Siege of Kabul.

1855
01:49:01,960 --> 01:49:04,719
Speaker 3: That's great, that's that's actually Tim Kennedy.

1856
01:49:04,880 --> 01:49:05,360
Speaker 4: That's great.

1857
01:49:07,840 --> 01:49:12,240
Speaker 1: So for obvious reasons. He encountered difficulties. He wound up

1858
01:49:12,280 --> 01:49:14,040
Speaker 1: sleeping by the side of the road one night, he

1859
01:49:14,120 --> 01:49:18,120
Speaker 1: was taken into Taliban custody. While he makes a big

1860
01:49:18,160 --> 01:49:20,400
Speaker 1: deal out of this, I actually don't think he was

1861
01:49:20,439 --> 01:49:23,360
Speaker 1: ever in serious danger, particularly not compared to, for example,

1862
01:49:23,400 --> 01:49:25,680
Speaker 1: the people fighting and dying or the civilians and said

1863
01:49:25,720 --> 01:49:28,000
Speaker 1: he's taken by the Taliban, who had to endure an

1864
01:49:28,000 --> 01:49:31,160
Speaker 1: often violent change of regime when the Taliban was taking

1865
01:49:31,200 --> 01:49:34,080
Speaker 1: over here. And lets you know, obviously there's the danger

1866
01:49:34,120 --> 01:49:36,640
Speaker 1: of like accidents on the road, which is always a

1867
01:49:36,680 --> 01:49:39,080
Speaker 1: significant danger in a place called like Afghanistan. There's the

1868
01:49:39,200 --> 01:49:42,240
Speaker 1: danger of you know, being caught up in a fight

1869
01:49:42,400 --> 01:49:46,360
Speaker 1: or something potentially, But the Taliban in this kind of

1870
01:49:46,439 --> 01:49:48,800
Speaker 1: late stage of their takeover, had no desire to harm

1871
01:49:48,800 --> 01:49:51,479
Speaker 1: a British citizen like Miles, or to harm like, you know,

1872
01:49:51,600 --> 01:49:54,479
Speaker 1: Americans who were in the country. And in fact, we're

1873
01:49:54,560 --> 01:49:56,400
Speaker 1: working kind of in the later stages of the US

1874
01:49:56,439 --> 01:49:59,000
Speaker 1: evacuation to try to make sure it happened peacefully, not

1875
01:49:59,000 --> 01:50:01,200
Speaker 1: because the Taliban is so good guys, but because like

1876
01:50:01,560 --> 01:50:05,080
Speaker 1: there's no geopolitical benefit to them from like a random

1877
01:50:05,120 --> 01:50:07,960
Speaker 1: British traveler dying. It's just gonna cause problems for them.

1878
01:50:08,640 --> 01:50:10,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just stress and a.

1879
01:50:11,320 --> 01:50:14,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, like they didn't have like, I don't believe they were.

1880
01:50:14,240 --> 01:50:20,080
Speaker 1: The Taliban was, ever, like threatened his life in any way. Miles, though,

1881
01:50:20,240 --> 01:50:22,680
Speaker 1: posted through it, reporting that he was stuck in a

1882
01:50:22,720 --> 01:50:26,080
Speaker 1: pickle and giving details of his experience to fans on

1883
01:50:26,120 --> 01:50:29,360
Speaker 1: four Chan and Twitch. He started using the name James.

1884
01:50:29,360 --> 01:50:31,200
Speaker 1: You had asked about this, he started using the name

1885
01:50:31,280 --> 01:50:33,960
Speaker 1: Lord Miles due to the fact that he had purchased

1886
01:50:33,960 --> 01:50:37,519
Speaker 1: a fifteen pound lordship certificate as a bit I knew,

1887
01:50:38,520 --> 01:50:41,080
Speaker 1: I knew. Yeah, yeah, yeah, not that surprising.

1888
01:50:41,200 --> 01:50:41,599
Speaker 4: Huh.

1889
01:50:41,760 --> 01:50:43,559
Speaker 3: What can't say that?

1890
01:50:44,520 --> 01:50:47,839
Speaker 1: Sorry, no you can You're you're you're British.

1891
01:50:47,840 --> 01:50:50,040
Speaker 3: It's fine, okay, Daniel, Yeah, I leave that one in.

1892
01:50:50,360 --> 01:50:55,400
Speaker 3: That is my conviction. I what a twat, Sorry, what

1893
01:50:55,439 --> 01:50:58,920
Speaker 3: an absolute prick because he's what's really fucking frustrated. Everything

1894
01:50:58,920 --> 01:51:01,839
Speaker 3: about his existence is for frustrating right now. So it's

1895
01:51:02,120 --> 01:51:05,960
Speaker 3: what's so annoying is he's playing this fucking twee parochial

1896
01:51:06,080 --> 01:51:09,800
Speaker 3: version of Britishness for an exclusively in American audience. Right,

1897
01:51:09,800 --> 01:51:13,200
Speaker 3: if you're born near fucking Birmingham, we're not all. Look,

1898
01:51:13,520 --> 01:51:16,479
Speaker 3: we are not all pride and prejudice people. And if

1899
01:51:16,479 --> 01:51:18,880
Speaker 3: you've moved to another country, you will constantly encounter people

1900
01:51:18,880 --> 01:51:21,920
Speaker 3: thinking you grew up in Harry Potterland. But like, we're

1901
01:51:22,000 --> 01:51:26,080
Speaker 3: not all turfs either. But like he's fucking doing it,

1902
01:51:26,160 --> 01:51:28,559
Speaker 3: like and he's doing it like a naive America. Like

1903
01:51:29,080 --> 01:51:32,599
Speaker 3: there are like the Scottish Parliament has made statements about

1904
01:51:32,640 --> 01:51:37,559
Speaker 3: not buying these stupid Scottish titles. Yeah, here's a pray.

1905
01:51:38,160 --> 01:51:41,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's very silly. He justified this by saying,

1906
01:51:41,800 --> 01:51:44,160
Speaker 1: because I think he buys it while he's in Afghanistan,

1907
01:51:44,320 --> 01:51:47,240
Speaker 1: he explained to his followers, the Taliban may see that

1908
01:51:47,280 --> 01:51:52,000
Speaker 1: as a reason to keep me alive, some negotiating powder powers.

1909
01:51:52,000 --> 01:51:55,120
Speaker 1: They'll think I'm important. They don't care. They don't want

1910
01:51:55,160 --> 01:51:58,599
Speaker 1: any fucking Westerners dying in the country because it'll fuck

1911
01:51:58,680 --> 01:52:01,120
Speaker 1: up their chances of like you know, they want to

1912
01:52:01,160 --> 01:52:04,840
Speaker 1: get integrated to the like fucking global economy. They want

1913
01:52:04,840 --> 01:52:07,439
Speaker 1: to qualify for like loans and ship like they don't

1914
01:52:07,479 --> 01:52:10,240
Speaker 1: want to They don't want the problems that you dying bring,

1915
01:52:10,360 --> 01:52:12,559
Speaker 1: Like you being a lord has not going to impact

1916
01:52:12,560 --> 01:52:13,240
Speaker 1: this in any way.

1917
01:52:13,600 --> 01:52:14,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they don't.

1918
01:52:14,360 --> 01:52:17,960
Speaker 5: They don't want like the British government deciding like, oh, ship,

1919
01:52:18,040 --> 01:52:20,160
Speaker 5: they killed someone, now we need to just bomb like

1920
01:52:20,520 --> 01:52:22,120
Speaker 5: cobble for eight months or whatever.

1921
01:52:22,880 --> 01:52:25,400
Speaker 3: Now. I don't want to say in his defense because

1922
01:52:25,400 --> 01:52:26,680
Speaker 3: I would not like to speak in his defense. But

1923
01:52:26,720 --> 01:52:28,640
Speaker 3: I will say that the one person who might be

1924
01:52:28,680 --> 01:52:31,719
Speaker 3: conned by a lordship you bought online is Boris Johnson.

1925
01:52:32,120 --> 01:52:36,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, have an impact on Bojo.

1926
01:52:38,080 --> 01:52:39,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it is.

1927
01:52:39,920 --> 01:52:42,040
Speaker 5: It is not defense. It's not like Bojo's gonna be

1928
01:52:42,040 --> 01:52:43,280
Speaker 5: sticking around for very long.

1929
01:52:43,400 --> 01:52:43,519
Speaker 10: Right.

1930
01:52:43,720 --> 01:52:46,840
Speaker 5: You have like you every every every like seven weeks,

1931
01:52:46,880 --> 01:52:49,400
Speaker 5: you are rolling a dice as to whether the Conservative

1932
01:52:49,439 --> 01:52:51,679
Speaker 5: PM is someone you can con with the lordship title.

1933
01:52:51,880 --> 01:52:55,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, none of them in the last few years

1934
01:52:55,080 --> 01:52:57,440
Speaker 3: have been what I would call intellectual titans.

1935
01:52:58,800 --> 01:52:59,360
Speaker 4: That's true.

1936
01:52:59,400 --> 01:53:02,920
Speaker 5: But but but Hope springs a turtle, Rishi sud acts

1937
01:53:02,920 --> 01:53:06,240
Speaker 5: in trouble too, so they might I don't know.

1938
01:53:07,880 --> 01:53:12,599
Speaker 3: A brave shot. You just really go down the fast road.

1939
01:53:13,000 --> 01:53:15,920
Speaker 1: I really I feel sorry for you all across the pond.

1940
01:53:15,960 --> 01:53:18,040
Speaker 1: I can't imagine what it would be like to have

1941
01:53:18,400 --> 01:53:21,479
Speaker 1: your politicians be national laughing stocks. I mean, that's just

1942
01:53:21,520 --> 01:53:24,000
Speaker 1: gotta be that's just got to be hard. No American,

1943
01:53:24,360 --> 01:53:27,479
Speaker 1: we we'll ever know what that's like. We are ruled

1944
01:53:27,520 --> 01:53:31,759
Speaker 1: by the hero of Ireland. Oh I I was gonna

1945
01:53:31,800 --> 01:53:34,360
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, my hero, the governor of Florida

1946
01:53:34,400 --> 01:53:37,280
Speaker 1: and his best friend, the pedophile who just committed suicide.

1947
01:53:39,560 --> 01:53:40,680
Speaker 5: This a different pedophile.

1948
01:53:41,000 --> 01:53:43,880
Speaker 1: No, this is the pedophile who like backed Santus's like

1949
01:53:43,920 --> 01:53:46,600
Speaker 1: early political rise and now just killed himself after he

1950
01:53:46,640 --> 01:53:47,360
Speaker 1: got exposed.

1951
01:53:47,840 --> 01:53:50,439
Speaker 5: Oh so it's this isn't all Alexander. Okay, never mind,

1952
01:53:50,960 --> 01:53:56,880
Speaker 5: this is a different pedophile. I'm every day there's a

1953
01:53:56,920 --> 01:53:57,280
Speaker 5: new one.

1954
01:53:57,280 --> 01:53:57,679
Speaker 4: I can't.

1955
01:53:57,720 --> 01:53:58,320
Speaker 5: I can't.

1956
01:53:58,800 --> 01:54:03,680
Speaker 3: It's not Mike Gates's a friend who's also aphile.

1957
01:54:04,560 --> 01:54:07,280
Speaker 1: Now you know who I cannot prove at this point

1958
01:54:07,280 --> 01:54:10,320
Speaker 1: as a pedophile, Miles Rutledge. So let's get back to

1959
01:54:10,360 --> 01:54:15,880
Speaker 1: his story please. So he also claimed during this period

1960
01:54:15,920 --> 01:54:18,719
Speaker 1: where he's kind of like quote unquote on the run,

1961
01:54:19,760 --> 01:54:22,720
Speaker 1: that the four Chan users he was posting with kept

1962
01:54:22,760 --> 01:54:26,080
Speaker 1: him alive by giving him updates on Taliban progress through

1963
01:54:26,120 --> 01:54:31,560
Speaker 1: ocent as they advanced through Kabul. That's broadly speaking, not impossible.

1964
01:54:31,920 --> 01:54:34,960
Speaker 1: So the idea that Miles, again, I don't believe he

1965
01:54:35,040 --> 01:54:38,080
Speaker 1: was ever threatened by the Taliban. They're again not nice people,

1966
01:54:38,120 --> 01:54:40,360
Speaker 1: but they're not like unhinten, They're not isis you know.

1967
01:54:40,680 --> 01:54:43,600
Speaker 1: They they are a government. They don't have a benefit

1968
01:54:43,640 --> 01:54:48,840
Speaker 1: in something bad happening to someone like him. So Miles, though,

1969
01:54:48,880 --> 01:54:51,480
Speaker 1: played up the idea that he was something between a tourist,

1970
01:54:51,520 --> 01:54:55,240
Speaker 1: a journalist, and a philanthropist building his trip to Afghanistan

1971
01:54:55,360 --> 01:54:58,160
Speaker 1: is a quote little charity thing. At the same time

1972
01:54:58,200 --> 01:55:00,600
Speaker 1: as he said that he was prepared for dea when

1973
01:55:00,600 --> 01:55:03,040
Speaker 1: he couldn't immediately secure a way out of the country,

1974
01:55:03,480 --> 01:55:06,560
Speaker 1: Eventually a United Nations safe house took him in and

1975
01:55:06,600 --> 01:55:08,320
Speaker 1: he was given a seat on one of the last

1976
01:55:08,400 --> 01:55:14,200
Speaker 1: planes out of the country. Now this is an actual actor. Yeah,

1977
01:55:14,400 --> 01:55:18,280
Speaker 1: that's frustrating because like there are people in danger from

1978
01:55:18,320 --> 01:55:21,920
Speaker 1: the Taliban who had no couldn't leave, right, Like he

1979
01:55:22,080 --> 01:55:25,080
Speaker 1: took one of their spaces. Somebody didn't get out who

1980
01:55:25,200 --> 01:55:26,960
Speaker 1: is in danger because of him.

1981
01:55:27,400 --> 01:55:30,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like very good friends of mine, like I spent

1982
01:55:30,400 --> 01:55:32,720
Speaker 3: much of that time, Like I've written about Afghanistan, I've

1983
01:55:32,720 --> 01:55:36,960
Speaker 3: worked with translators and like good friends of mine. Sometimes

1984
01:55:36,960 --> 01:55:40,080
Speaker 3: them left Afghanistan, but many of them still have their

1985
01:55:40,080 --> 01:55:43,120
Speaker 3: families there right, and every single day they have anxiety

1986
01:55:43,120 --> 01:55:45,560
Speaker 3: about whether their families are okay if something terrible has

1987
01:55:45,560 --> 01:55:48,040
Speaker 3: happened to them. Yeah, and this twat is just like

1988
01:55:48,120 --> 01:55:50,680
Speaker 3: sitting on a plane posting on four Chaney Like that

1989
01:55:50,800 --> 01:55:51,880
Speaker 3: makes me properly angry.

1990
01:55:52,120 --> 01:55:54,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's And that's again what I was talking about, Like,

1991
01:55:54,960 --> 01:55:58,040
Speaker 1: if you're going to if you're gonna go to a

1992
01:55:58,120 --> 01:56:01,240
Speaker 1: place that is that is beset conflict, you know, by

1993
01:56:01,320 --> 01:56:04,800
Speaker 1: civil war, by violence or anything like that. Number one,

1994
01:56:04,840 --> 01:56:06,920
Speaker 1: you have responsibility to like have a reason to go

1995
01:56:07,000 --> 01:56:10,400
Speaker 1: beyond I wonder what it's like. And you have a

1996
01:56:10,480 --> 01:56:14,880
Speaker 1: responsibility to not make things worse for people who don't

1997
01:56:14,960 --> 01:56:17,640
Speaker 1: have a choice about being there. And he did. You know,

1998
01:56:17,760 --> 01:56:20,640
Speaker 1: that's like fundamentally why I hate this guy is he

1999
01:56:20,760 --> 01:56:24,440
Speaker 1: absolutely took an opportunity to escape from I don't know,

2000
01:56:24,480 --> 01:56:27,520
Speaker 1: some woman's rights activist or something, you know, some somebody

2001
01:56:27,520 --> 01:56:29,840
Speaker 1: who was some turp or something, somebody who didn't have

2002
01:56:29,880 --> 01:56:32,800
Speaker 1: a choice about fucking being stuck in Afghanistan.

2003
01:56:32,920 --> 01:56:35,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, just some fuck you wanted a fair cracket life.

2004
01:56:35,560 --> 01:56:40,400
Speaker 3: And and yeah there's a prick. Yeah, yeah, it's yeah.

2005
01:56:40,680 --> 01:56:43,080
Speaker 3: And he could have stayed. I have friends who stayed

2006
01:56:43,680 --> 01:56:46,840
Speaker 3: through that time and covered it. Like your concern is

2007
01:56:46,880 --> 01:56:48,200
Speaker 3: for your sources, not yourself.

2008
01:56:48,840 --> 01:56:50,880
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, or you could have done the thing that

2009
01:56:50,920 --> 01:56:54,520
Speaker 5: his ancestors didn't, just walk across the border Pakistan like

2010
01:56:55,400 --> 01:56:59,320
Speaker 5: your ancestors did this. This is the one thing like

2011
01:56:59,400 --> 01:57:01,320
Speaker 5: Hell's look.

2012
01:57:01,280 --> 01:57:04,400
Speaker 1: Like through the Kyber Pass and then become Sherlock Holmes

2013
01:57:04,480 --> 01:57:09,840
Speaker 1: his best friend. You know, that's a proud tradition, which I.

2014
01:57:09,760 --> 01:57:11,560
Speaker 3: Thought you were gonna go with dying man, which would

2015
01:57:11,560 --> 01:57:14,720
Speaker 3: have also been a very That's another proud tradition.

2016
01:57:14,800 --> 01:57:18,800
Speaker 1: Getting sniped by a jizil in the fucking uh Kaiber Pass.

2017
01:57:18,840 --> 01:57:24,200
Speaker 1: Absolutely so. He had a marvelous time in Afghanistan and

2018
01:57:24,240 --> 01:57:27,240
Speaker 1: immediately pivoted because he built up a big social media

2019
01:57:27,320 --> 01:57:30,080
Speaker 1: following around his posts there, pivoted to a career as

2020
01:57:30,120 --> 01:57:34,240
Speaker 1: a dark tourist influencer. He traveled next to an ireland,

2021
01:57:34,960 --> 01:57:37,839
Speaker 1: not an Ireland. He traveled next to an island in Brazil.

2022
01:57:37,880 --> 01:57:40,280
Speaker 1: There's this island off the coast of Brazil that like,

2023
01:57:40,280 --> 01:57:42,080
Speaker 1: like you're not allowed to go to because there's so

2024
01:57:42,160 --> 01:57:43,240
Speaker 1: many fucking snakes.

2025
01:57:43,600 --> 01:57:44,720
Speaker 4: Like it's just it's.

2026
01:57:44,600 --> 01:57:47,280
Speaker 1: Extremely dangerous to go there because it's covered in fucking snakes.

2027
01:57:47,600 --> 01:57:50,000
Speaker 1: And he like went there wearing armor, but he didn't

2028
01:57:50,000 --> 01:57:53,920
Speaker 1: actually run into any snakes, because snakes don't, like you know,

2029
01:57:53,960 --> 01:57:58,240
Speaker 1: they're not generally aggressive, most of them. He got arrested

2030
01:57:58,280 --> 01:58:00,520
Speaker 1: in Kenya for as best as I can and tell,

2031
01:58:00,800 --> 01:58:05,560
Speaker 1: being a prick nearer refugee camp, and then he traveled

2032
01:58:05,560 --> 01:58:09,400
Speaker 1: to Ukraine right after the expanded invasion to Ukraine to

2033
01:58:09,400 --> 01:58:11,640
Speaker 1: try to make the suffering of hundreds of thousands of

2034
01:58:11,640 --> 01:58:15,280
Speaker 1: people about him. The highlight of that trip was he

2035
01:58:15,440 --> 01:58:17,720
Speaker 1: claims that he drove a woman and her kid out

2036
01:58:17,760 --> 01:58:20,600
Speaker 1: of the country and rescued them, and also brought people

2037
01:58:20,640 --> 01:58:27,120
Speaker 1: snacks whatever. Miles has always been two things. He's deeply

2038
01:58:27,240 --> 01:58:29,440
Speaker 1: enmeshed in right wing meme culture, and he is at

2039
01:58:29,520 --> 01:58:33,760
Speaker 1: least superficially committed to Christian extremism. He is like kind

2040
01:58:33,760 --> 01:58:38,200
Speaker 1: of a at least it like signals as a fundamentalist Christian.

2041
01:58:38,240 --> 01:58:42,080
Speaker 1: He's super fashy right. This is not like a hidden

2042
01:58:42,120 --> 01:58:45,440
Speaker 1: thing within his videos and stuff. I found one write

2043
01:58:45,480 --> 01:58:48,600
Speaker 1: up of him on a right wing religious news website

2044
01:58:48,640 --> 01:58:50,600
Speaker 1: that gives you an idea of how he builds himself

2045
01:58:50,640 --> 01:58:54,800
Speaker 1: to his ideal audience. Miles Wroteledge is a self described Catholic,

2046
01:58:54,840 --> 01:58:58,200
Speaker 1: independent war journalist and charity on the ground at just

2047
01:58:58,240 --> 01:59:00,520
Speaker 1: twenty one. He had to do Afghanistan with the Taliban

2048
01:59:00,600 --> 01:59:03,800
Speaker 1: seized control, and now he's in Ukraine giving refreshing updates

2049
01:59:03,800 --> 01:59:06,600
Speaker 1: that are peppered with humor, reality and a little naivete.

2050
01:59:06,920 --> 01:59:09,200
Speaker 1: In the past, Routledge went to war torn countries and

2051
01:59:09,240 --> 01:59:12,680
Speaker 1: into areas no NGO or charity dared to go, according

2052
01:59:12,720 --> 01:59:15,480
Speaker 1: to his GoFundMe paigde, so he can hand out bibles, food,

2053
01:59:15,600 --> 01:59:16,560
Speaker 1: medicine and money.

2054
01:59:17,560 --> 01:59:19,640
Speaker 3: Well, there's a special place in hell for some time

2055
01:59:19,760 --> 01:59:21,320
Speaker 3: giving a stopping person a Bible.

2056
01:59:21,640 --> 01:59:21,840
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2057
01:59:21,840 --> 01:59:24,680
Speaker 1: And also like he never went to places other people

2058
01:59:24,760 --> 01:59:27,200
Speaker 1: wouldn't dare to go. I will guarantee you everywhere he

2059
01:59:27,280 --> 01:59:30,800
Speaker 1: went there were already like people like the Freeburmer rangers

2060
01:59:30,880 --> 01:59:34,720
Speaker 1: or even medicine sands, frontiers uh or journalists without borders,

2061
01:59:34,760 --> 01:59:38,200
Speaker 1: like there were there were people there. Because he's not

2062
01:59:38,360 --> 01:59:40,480
Speaker 1: He's not like I've seen his videos, He's not going

2063
01:59:40,520 --> 01:59:41,360
Speaker 1: anywhere special.

2064
01:59:42,320 --> 01:59:45,200
Speaker 5: There's how many people are in Callable like ten million people?

2065
01:59:45,720 --> 01:59:49,240
Speaker 1: Yes, these are big cities, he's four million people sure,

2066
01:59:49,520 --> 01:59:52,560
Speaker 1: Playing off of kind of these the provincialism of his

2067
01:59:52,640 --> 01:59:54,760
Speaker 1: audience and the fact that most people in the West

2068
01:59:54,800 --> 01:59:58,080
Speaker 1: when they hear Afghanistan or now Ukraine when they hear it,

2069
01:59:58,200 --> 01:59:59,960
Speaker 1: or like even like a place like Kenya, which is

2070
02:00:00,160 --> 02:00:03,000
Speaker 1: like a massive country with major cities and all sorts

2071
02:00:03,000 --> 02:00:05,960
Speaker 1: of stuff like that, like, oh, these places are just

2072
02:00:06,160 --> 02:00:08,280
Speaker 1: death traps and you don't go there, and like, no, man,

2073
02:00:08,400 --> 02:00:10,240
Speaker 1: even like I would get this when i'd go to

2074
02:00:10,320 --> 02:00:13,040
Speaker 1: I've spent a lot, visited Arax seven or eight times,

2075
02:00:13,040 --> 02:00:15,280
Speaker 1: and it's like, no, man, it's like most of it's

2076
02:00:15,320 --> 02:00:17,720
Speaker 1: just a country. Like, yeah, there's specific things you have

2077
02:00:17,760 --> 02:00:20,080
Speaker 1: to keep in mind that are dangerous, but like it's

2078
02:00:20,120 --> 02:00:22,480
Speaker 1: just a place, like millions of people live there and

2079
02:00:22,560 --> 02:00:23,600
Speaker 1: don't die every day.

2080
02:00:25,040 --> 02:00:27,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is ludicrous to suggest that he was in

2081
02:00:27,760 --> 02:00:29,640
Speaker 3: any day. Yeah, like you could go to all these

2082
02:00:29,640 --> 02:00:32,240
Speaker 3: places and stay in a five star hotel and yeah,

2083
02:00:32,280 --> 02:00:35,640
Speaker 3: like you're not in any danger, especially as a.

2084
02:00:35,640 --> 02:00:36,640
Speaker 4: Rich white British guy.

2085
02:00:36,720 --> 02:00:39,960
Speaker 1: Brady ground by, Yeah, to the extent that he's like

2086
02:00:40,000 --> 02:00:43,520
Speaker 1: in Ukraine and traveling near the front where there's like

2087
02:00:43,680 --> 02:00:46,320
Speaker 1: random missiles and shelling, Yeah there's some danger, but again

2088
02:00:46,720 --> 02:00:51,160
Speaker 1: it's danger that he is exposing himself to unnecessarily and

2089
02:00:51,640 --> 02:00:55,600
Speaker 1: then creating a situation whereby if he is injured, that's

2090
02:00:55,960 --> 02:00:58,840
Speaker 1: a bunch of morphine and antibiotics that can't go to

2091
02:00:58,880 --> 02:01:01,840
Speaker 1: a fucking civilian who had no choice because they were

2092
02:01:02,040 --> 02:01:07,480
Speaker 1: raised in constantiniva or whatever. You know, Like, yeah, fucking yeah,

2093
02:01:07,640 --> 02:01:13,360
Speaker 1: he's a praise Yeah, yeah, so I mentioned a little earlier,

2094
02:01:13,560 --> 02:01:17,080
Speaker 1: he's definitely a fascist. And you know when I say that,

2095
02:01:17,200 --> 02:01:19,920
Speaker 1: sometimes people do the whole ou lefties will call anything

2096
02:01:19,960 --> 02:01:23,440
Speaker 1: a fascist. Don't worry, I have some receipts on this one.

2097
02:01:23,760 --> 02:01:27,800
Speaker 1: So shortly after his famous trip to Afghanistan, he published

2098
02:01:27,840 --> 02:01:30,440
Speaker 1: a book about his very brief time in the country.

2099
02:01:30,840 --> 02:01:33,760
Speaker 1: This book included some interesting claims, like that he was

2100
02:01:33,800 --> 02:01:35,839
Speaker 1: the last person to enter the country on a tourist

2101
02:01:35,880 --> 02:01:38,560
Speaker 1: visa before the fall of Kabul, and that his visa

2102
02:01:38,600 --> 02:01:41,920
Speaker 1: had required a personal statement explaining his reasons for visiting.

2103
02:01:42,160 --> 02:01:45,000
Speaker 1: He wrote, quote, my response was simply an a four

2104
02:01:45,040 --> 02:01:47,480
Speaker 1: sheet of paper with only the word fun written on it.

2105
02:01:47,480 --> 02:01:50,040
Speaker 1: It was accepted without question. I was ready for my

2106
02:01:50,200 --> 02:01:53,600
Speaker 1: very own white boy summer. He also notes that the

2107
02:01:53,720 --> 02:01:58,760
Speaker 1: last right, which was at the time kind of like

2108
02:01:58,800 --> 02:02:02,760
Speaker 1: a meme in you know, fashy online Nazi circles, it

2109
02:02:02,800 --> 02:02:08,520
Speaker 1: was all over telegram. He also known to very pragmatic

2110
02:02:08,640 --> 02:02:12,360
Speaker 1: child yeah, although not problematic in this sense. Chet did

2111
02:02:12,400 --> 02:02:16,080
Speaker 1: not I think mean for that to happen. He's just

2112
02:02:16,160 --> 02:02:19,000
Speaker 1: problematic in other ways. So he also notes that the

2113
02:02:19,080 --> 02:02:23,000
Speaker 1: last thing he did before leaving was rewatch American Psycho,

2114
02:02:23,160 --> 02:02:26,440
Speaker 1: which he described as a sacred male experience. I will

2115
02:02:26,480 --> 02:02:28,560
Speaker 1: remind you all that that is a movie directed by

2116
02:02:28,560 --> 02:02:33,120
Speaker 1: a woman. He also writes about the fact that he

2117
02:02:33,280 --> 02:02:36,600
Speaker 1: ordered a meal at the airport before leaving, but decided

2118
02:02:36,640 --> 02:02:39,040
Speaker 1: not to eat it because it was likely filled with soy.

2119
02:02:39,280 --> 02:02:41,520
Speaker 1: He goes on like a whole diatribe about how Afghanistan

2120
02:02:41,600 --> 02:02:43,760
Speaker 1: is probably safer for him because there's no soy in the.

2121
02:02:43,720 --> 02:02:45,760
Speaker 3: Food, just.

2122
02:02:47,800 --> 02:02:50,440
Speaker 1: So. The weird right wing memes and signaling, all of

2123
02:02:50,480 --> 02:02:52,480
Speaker 1: which are like he's always like a year or two

2124
02:02:52,560 --> 02:02:55,120
Speaker 1: out of date on his like far right signaling and

2125
02:02:55,120 --> 02:02:57,400
Speaker 1: stuff too, which is weird. All of it makes a

2126
02:02:57,400 --> 02:03:00,120
Speaker 1: little more sense when you realize that the book that

2127
02:03:00,160 --> 02:03:04,000
Speaker 1: he wrote about Afghanistan was published with Antelope Hill Publishing.

2128
02:03:05,280 --> 02:03:12,680
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, James, he recognized that, didn't you. Yeah yeah,

2129
02:03:12,720 --> 02:03:17,480
Speaker 1: It is an explicitly fascist publisher. So on the Antelope

2130
02:03:17,480 --> 02:03:20,680
Speaker 1: Pill page for his stupid book, the recommended books beneath It,

2131
02:03:20,720 --> 02:03:21,920
Speaker 1: you know you've got the main book and is like

2132
02:03:21,960 --> 02:03:24,000
Speaker 1: this is if you like this book, read these books

2133
02:03:24,200 --> 02:03:25,880
Speaker 1: are a collection of One of the books is a

2134
02:03:25,920 --> 02:03:29,320
Speaker 1: collection of speech speeches from Kai Murros, who is a

2135
02:03:29,480 --> 02:03:32,400
Speaker 1: Finnish right wing activist who was formerly a maoist but

2136
02:03:32,560 --> 02:03:36,640
Speaker 1: is now a white nationalist revolutionary advocate who suppose supports

2137
02:03:36,680 --> 02:03:40,680
Speaker 1: total racial war against asylum seekers and immigrants. He advocates

2138
02:03:40,720 --> 02:03:44,160
Speaker 1: for an uprising in the UK in which all university

2139
02:03:44,200 --> 02:03:46,240
Speaker 1: staff will be executed by death squads.

2140
02:03:46,600 --> 02:03:47,760
Speaker 5: So he hasn't gone.

2141
02:03:47,560 --> 02:03:49,120
Speaker 4: That far from the malm So.

2142
02:03:49,080 --> 02:03:52,000
Speaker 1: Not that far there, Like, look, there's still pieces of it.

2143
02:03:52,440 --> 02:03:55,600
Speaker 1: So the next book that's recommended if you're interested in

2144
02:03:55,640 --> 02:03:58,560
Speaker 1: Miles's book is The Death Company, which is a first

2145
02:03:58,600 --> 02:04:01,600
Speaker 1: hand account of the Italian in World War One that

2146
02:04:01,720 --> 02:04:05,800
Speaker 1: was very influential among early fascists. And then there's Let

2147
02:04:05,840 --> 02:04:08,760
Speaker 1: Them Look West by Marty Phillips. I found a review

2148
02:04:08,800 --> 02:04:11,520
Speaker 1: of this book on a website called the White Art Collective,

2149
02:04:11,680 --> 02:04:13,640
Speaker 1: and I'm going to read a quote from that now.

2150
02:04:14,040 --> 02:04:17,839
Speaker 1: So this is a Nazi reviewing this book by a Nazi.

2151
02:04:18,000 --> 02:04:19,440
Speaker 3: Right, good stuff.

2152
02:04:20,160 --> 02:04:23,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's him describing the book. Rob Cohen is a

2153
02:04:23,440 --> 02:04:26,440
Speaker 1: big city writer sent on assignment to interview James Alexander,

2154
02:04:26,480 --> 02:04:29,320
Speaker 1: the governor of Wyoming, a fundamentalist Christian who has revived

2155
02:04:29,320 --> 02:04:32,200
Speaker 1: his state with, among other things, a Christian themed public

2156
02:04:32,200 --> 02:04:35,680
Speaker 1: works program and Mount Calvary, an artificial mountain which villagers

2157
02:04:35,720 --> 02:04:38,040
Speaker 1: climb up and pass the stations of the Cross, then

2158
02:04:38,160 --> 02:04:40,920
Speaker 1: view a live action recreation of the Crucifixion with music

2159
02:04:40,960 --> 02:04:43,680
Speaker 1: by a live choir. The first few chapters until Rob

2160
02:04:43,760 --> 02:04:46,720
Speaker 1: meets Alexander, feel like a dead pan satire of apocalypse.

2161
02:04:46,760 --> 02:04:47,000
Speaker 10: Now.

2162
02:04:47,320 --> 02:04:49,160
Speaker 1: Rob didn't want a mission, but for his sins, he

2163
02:04:49,200 --> 02:04:50,800
Speaker 1: was given one. He's a fish out of water who

2164
02:04:50,800 --> 02:04:52,840
Speaker 1: has to navigate and improvise his way to the goal.

2165
02:04:53,040 --> 02:04:55,760
Speaker 1: There's a magical realism vibe of the book despite nothing

2166
02:04:55,840 --> 02:04:59,000
Speaker 1: overly supernatural occurring, and maybe this is why Phillips calls

2167
02:04:59,000 --> 02:05:01,960
Speaker 1: it a mundane phantom. But it's also a mundane fantasy

2168
02:05:02,000 --> 02:05:04,600
Speaker 1: for the simple reason that the America and Wyoming described

2169
02:05:04,640 --> 02:05:06,879
Speaker 1: in the book are so far beyond what is possible

2170
02:05:07,080 --> 02:05:11,640
Speaker 1: that suspension of disbelief is required. Even the Nazi seems

2171
02:05:11,800 --> 02:05:14,400
Speaker 1: like to think it's kind of a shit book, which

2172
02:05:14,440 --> 02:05:17,839
Speaker 1: is very funny to me. So again, if you publish

2173
02:05:17,960 --> 02:05:22,040
Speaker 1: your book with Antelope Pill, Like you are comfortable, at

2174
02:05:22,040 --> 02:05:25,040
Speaker 1: the very least comfortable with having your book advertised next

2175
02:05:25,080 --> 02:05:27,240
Speaker 1: to explicitly Nazi power fantasies.

2176
02:05:27,440 --> 02:05:31,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, going to Antler, you know we've both

2177
02:05:31,240 --> 02:05:34,600
Speaker 3: published books, Like, Yeah, it wouldn't have occurred to me

2178
02:05:34,680 --> 02:05:35,360
Speaker 3: to even try.

2179
02:05:35,800 --> 02:05:39,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, they are the Nazi one of the Nazist publishers

2180
02:05:39,280 --> 02:05:43,560
Speaker 1: out there. In April of twenty twenty two, Miles attempted

2181
02:05:43,560 --> 02:05:47,640
Speaker 1: to re enter Afghanistan. He claimed in videos that his

2182
02:05:47,720 --> 02:05:50,440
Speaker 1: goal was to rescue a tour guide and his family

2183
02:05:50,480 --> 02:05:53,120
Speaker 1: who were threatened by the Taliban, but he wound up

2184
02:05:53,160 --> 02:05:55,920
Speaker 1: stuck in Pakistan, claiming that this guide had lied to

2185
02:05:56,000 --> 02:05:58,520
Speaker 1: him and claimed that the border was closed to British people.

2186
02:05:59,720 --> 02:06:02,280
Speaker 1: He he's like, to be fair, I have no issues

2187
02:06:02,280 --> 02:06:05,560
Speaker 1: with this. No, that would be fine. He gets like

2188
02:06:05,640 --> 02:06:08,000
Speaker 1: he starts like freaking out in the video, he's like

2189
02:06:08,000 --> 02:06:10,760
Speaker 1: a near tears and stuff. He claims that he'd spent

2190
02:06:10,880 --> 02:06:14,080
Speaker 1: fifteen thousand pounds on the trip and now he was broke,

2191
02:06:14,200 --> 02:06:15,920
Speaker 1: so obviously he uses that he has to beg for

2192
02:06:16,000 --> 02:06:18,400
Speaker 1: money from his followers, which I kind of wonder if

2193
02:06:18,400 --> 02:06:20,320
Speaker 1: that was just the whole point of the trip. He

2194
02:06:20,360 --> 02:06:24,080
Speaker 1: also pointed, posted whiney status updates, claiming his life had

2195
02:06:24,080 --> 02:06:26,800
Speaker 1: been ruined by the failed trip. Quote, this means I

2196
02:06:26,800 --> 02:06:28,760
Speaker 1: can't go on a date with a girl I really liked.

2197
02:06:28,800 --> 02:06:31,320
Speaker 1: It means I can't sponsor a joint adventure with my friend.

2198
02:06:31,400 --> 02:06:33,400
Speaker 1: I will go home to an empty room. I am

2199
02:06:33,480 --> 02:06:37,480
Speaker 1: at my end, but I know, big baby.

2200
02:06:37,800 --> 02:06:38,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2201
02:06:38,640 --> 02:06:41,080
Speaker 1: Despite his failure, he did not give up on his

2202
02:06:41,200 --> 02:06:44,560
Speaker 1: dreams of stumbling through Afghanistan again. For the sake of content,

2203
02:06:44,920 --> 02:06:47,200
Speaker 1: he put together another trip for the start of twenty

2204
02:06:47,240 --> 02:06:50,560
Speaker 1: twenty three. In late February, as he geared up to go,

2205
02:06:50,640 --> 02:06:52,920
Speaker 1: he made some tweets to his followers that give us

2206
02:06:52,960 --> 02:06:56,000
Speaker 1: more unfortunate context as to the sort of person he is.

2207
02:06:57,000 --> 02:07:01,440
Speaker 1: From February twenty seventh, flat mate saw my Bible and

2208
02:07:01,480 --> 02:07:03,520
Speaker 1: said that book is a fairy tale. So I threw

2209
02:07:03,600 --> 02:07:05,920
Speaker 1: my empty mug at his head, broke on the wall

2210
02:07:05,960 --> 02:07:08,480
Speaker 1: behind him. This isn't the first instance. And after a

2211
02:07:08,480 --> 02:07:10,360
Speaker 1: while you have to stop playing nis and to fend

2212
02:07:10,400 --> 02:07:10,840
Speaker 1: your faith.

2213
02:07:12,160 --> 02:07:12,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2214
02:07:13,560 --> 02:07:15,320
Speaker 5: Great, this tweet that I remember seeing.

2215
02:07:15,520 --> 02:07:18,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a great one. Now people used to

2216
02:07:18,480 --> 02:07:20,240
Speaker 3: send me his shit so often.

2217
02:07:20,800 --> 02:07:24,960
Speaker 1: He's infuriating. Yeah, there's a worse one. The most infuriating

2218
02:07:25,000 --> 02:07:26,800
Speaker 1: tweet I found from this guy came a bit further

2219
02:07:26,920 --> 02:07:29,840
Speaker 1: down and it's it's a picture of him. I thinking

2220
02:07:30,320 --> 02:07:33,400
Speaker 1: it might be Dubai. I think it's Dubai. So he's

2221
02:07:33,400 --> 02:07:36,520
Speaker 1: like got his back to the skyline and he's just

2222
02:07:36,600 --> 02:07:40,400
Speaker 1: kind of like looking off into the distance pensively, and

2223
02:07:40,440 --> 02:07:42,760
Speaker 1: it says, friends say, I space out all the time.

2224
02:07:43,120 --> 02:07:47,160
Speaker 1: My mind is having visions of North Sentinel Island. Now,

2225
02:07:47,320 --> 02:07:51,120
Speaker 1: if you don't remember, Sentinel Island is the Forbidden Island

2226
02:07:51,120 --> 02:07:54,040
Speaker 1: and the Andamans which is part of India where in

2227
02:07:54,080 --> 02:07:58,840
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, an idiot Christian missionary broke quarantine and endangered

2228
02:07:58,840 --> 02:08:01,560
Speaker 1: the lives of an entire so he could satisfy his

2229
02:08:01,720 --> 02:08:05,680
Speaker 1: narcissistic evangelical fetish. He was thankfully shot to death by

2230
02:08:05,680 --> 02:08:08,200
Speaker 1: them via arrow before he could get too close, and

2231
02:08:08,240 --> 02:08:12,360
Speaker 1: hopefully did not spread any diseases to them. I wish

2232
02:08:12,440 --> 02:08:15,840
Speaker 1: mild success in reaching the island and meeting his similar fate,

2233
02:08:16,240 --> 02:08:18,160
Speaker 1: But if he gets anywhere close to them, there's just

2234
02:08:18,200 --> 02:08:20,440
Speaker 1: such a high chance that he will spread deadly disease

2235
02:08:20,520 --> 02:08:23,200
Speaker 1: to the people there that I hope the Indian government

2236
02:08:23,320 --> 02:08:25,560
Speaker 1: keeps him away, even though it would be very funny

2237
02:08:25,560 --> 02:08:28,800
Speaker 1: if he got shot to death by that would be

2238
02:08:29,480 --> 02:08:30,160
Speaker 1: quite a laugh.

2239
02:08:30,760 --> 02:08:33,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, truly living out the dreams of being a British lord.

2240
02:08:34,440 --> 02:08:39,960
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, continue a real time on our tradition getting

2241
02:08:40,000 --> 02:08:44,840
Speaker 1: fucking murked by the natives on an island. So the

2242
02:08:44,880 --> 02:08:47,920
Speaker 1: good news is that friends of the pod, the Taliban

2243
02:08:48,040 --> 02:08:50,680
Speaker 1: may have taken care of you know, this guy for us.

2244
02:08:50,960 --> 02:08:54,280
Speaker 1: Shortly after making those posts, he re entered Afghanistan and

2245
02:08:54,320 --> 02:08:57,600
Speaker 1: a video posted several days later he bragged about entering.

2246
02:08:57,680 --> 02:09:00,600
Speaker 1: While he's in Afghanistan, he brags that he made a

2247
02:09:00,640 --> 02:09:03,680
Speaker 1: fake visa in order to get himself into the country.

2248
02:09:04,000 --> 02:09:07,160
Speaker 1: So he breaks Taliban law entering the country in a

2249
02:09:07,200 --> 02:09:10,440
Speaker 1: fake video and then posts a video while he's in

2250
02:09:10,560 --> 02:09:17,040
Speaker 1: Kabul bragging about it. So, first off, genius brain, unbelievable

2251
02:09:18,000 --> 02:09:21,600
Speaker 1: smarts there. So this the first video that he posts

2252
02:09:21,640 --> 02:09:24,840
Speaker 1: back is it's titled something like Shooting Guns with the Taliban,

2253
02:09:25,200 --> 02:09:27,640
Speaker 1: and it's all about him just like going to Jalalabad

2254
02:09:27,720 --> 02:09:30,280
Speaker 1: to see what kind of guns are available. He talks

2255
02:09:30,320 --> 02:09:32,520
Speaker 1: a lot about how all these US guns and gear

2256
02:09:32,640 --> 02:09:35,160
Speaker 1: are available, but he doesn't actually really show any of it.

2257
02:09:35,560 --> 02:09:38,160
Speaker 1: Like most of the video, he's in like this fucking

2258
02:09:38,560 --> 02:09:40,520
Speaker 1: I'll show you he's in like this fucking gun bazaar

2259
02:09:40,720 --> 02:09:44,760
Speaker 1: and he's like really awed by this giant ar style

2260
02:09:44,880 --> 02:09:48,840
Speaker 1: Turkish shotgun, which we've seen some of them. We have

2261
02:09:48,920 --> 02:09:52,160
Speaker 1: seen some of those, James. They're terrible weapons. They are

2262
02:09:52,200 --> 02:09:55,360
Speaker 1: definitely obviously the Taliban got a hold of a shitload

2263
02:09:55,360 --> 02:09:58,960
Speaker 1: of US gear. Nobody's questioning that these shitty Turkish shotguns

2264
02:09:59,000 --> 02:10:00,360
Speaker 1: are not American weapon.

2265
02:10:00,440 --> 02:10:03,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, well that that's that's probably why it's in the

2266
02:10:03,680 --> 02:10:08,000
Speaker 5: bizarre and not like in someone's like or something.

2267
02:10:08,080 --> 02:10:09,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2268
02:10:09,400 --> 02:10:12,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Taliban have access to a lot of American gear.

2269
02:10:12,760 --> 02:10:15,400
Speaker 1: He is kind of just like looking at i don't know,

2270
02:10:15,680 --> 02:10:19,000
Speaker 1: like a mix of like old Soviet weapons and like

2271
02:10:19,960 --> 02:10:22,920
Speaker 1: trash guns. So I'm gonna show you a first clip

2272
02:10:22,960 --> 02:10:23,680
Speaker 1: from this video.

2273
02:10:23,720 --> 02:10:27,160
Speaker 7: Here is sometimes a little bit dangerous, so there's a

2274
02:10:27,160 --> 02:10:29,080
Speaker 7: lot of diesta. If you don't know who diesh is

2275
02:10:29,120 --> 02:10:30,720
Speaker 7: it's basically isis.

2276
02:10:32,320 --> 02:10:33,200
Speaker 4: Now isis?

2277
02:10:33,280 --> 02:10:35,960
Speaker 7: You know, I'll number be Taliban. However, the weapons market

2278
02:10:36,000 --> 02:10:37,680
Speaker 7: and maybe in some areas would be quite bad at

2279
02:10:37,680 --> 02:10:39,200
Speaker 7: for me, so I'll have to be a little bit careful.

2280
02:10:39,200 --> 02:10:41,440
Speaker 7: But if you've seen this footage ended up, Okay, I'm

2281
02:10:41,480 --> 02:10:43,160
Speaker 7: gonna take a moment to tell you, guys about my

2282
02:10:43,200 --> 02:10:44,320
Speaker 7: sponsor tend.

2283
02:10:44,720 --> 02:10:47,640
Speaker 5: What the fuck.

2284
02:10:50,520 --> 02:10:52,240
Speaker 3: This is not official medium, but.

2285
02:10:53,880 --> 02:10:55,360
Speaker 5: Gesus, that.

2286
02:10:57,080 --> 02:10:59,440
Speaker 3: Is one of the most jarring address.

2287
02:10:59,720 --> 02:11:01,800
Speaker 1: Like if you're not watching this, he's like standing in

2288
02:11:01,800 --> 02:11:04,840
Speaker 1: the desert and like talking. There's that brief clip of

2289
02:11:04,880 --> 02:11:07,040
Speaker 1: like a picture of some isis guys, but then he's

2290
02:11:07,040 --> 02:11:09,520
Speaker 1: like back in the desert talking and then suddenly a

2291
02:11:09,560 --> 02:11:12,960
Speaker 1: shot like it cuts very harshly to him in his

2292
02:11:13,040 --> 02:11:16,520
Speaker 1: hotel room doing like a fucking ad for an investment

2293
02:11:16,560 --> 02:11:21,320
Speaker 1: banking app. It's so fucking or like a stock trading app.

2294
02:11:21,400 --> 02:11:22,400
Speaker 1: It's so funny.

2295
02:11:22,960 --> 02:11:28,360
Speaker 3: And then yes, yeah, don't see uh have you got

2296
02:11:28,400 --> 02:11:31,400
Speaker 3: the shahata written on it? Yeah?

2297
02:11:31,480 --> 02:11:32,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it sure does.

2298
02:11:33,600 --> 02:11:39,920
Speaker 13: Oh yeah, I was gonna say people she was this,

2299
02:11:39,960 --> 02:11:44,480
Speaker 13: but to spare yourself, like god, yeah, he's he's wearing

2300
02:11:44,520 --> 02:11:45,600
Speaker 13: his white headband.

2301
02:11:45,640 --> 02:11:47,960
Speaker 3: Who's I can't see it anymore, but you can see

2302
02:11:48,080 --> 02:11:49,520
Speaker 3: something you're in and Arabic on it, I guess, and

2303
02:11:50,360 --> 02:11:52,320
Speaker 3: doing it as much for something called ten.

2304
02:11:52,240 --> 02:11:55,320
Speaker 1: D's yeah, something which is like yeah, some sort of

2305
02:11:55,360 --> 02:11:58,800
Speaker 1: like stock trading app for I'm going to guess people

2306
02:11:58,840 --> 02:12:01,560
Speaker 1: to get their life saving scammed from them. Yeah, yeah,

2307
02:12:02,400 --> 02:12:06,280
Speaker 1: that's my apologies tendis if I'm getting you wrong, but

2308
02:12:07,320 --> 02:12:08,640
Speaker 1: you're spider.

2309
02:12:11,080 --> 02:12:13,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, ah damn.

2310
02:12:13,560 --> 02:12:17,440
Speaker 1: It's okay. We've got enough sports betting companies to that. Well,

2311
02:12:17,520 --> 02:12:21,320
Speaker 1: we'll be okay. Run regular us, right, yeah, run Reagan

2312
02:12:21,920 --> 02:12:24,560
Speaker 1: gold coins or silver coins will take care of us.

2313
02:12:25,000 --> 02:12:27,800
Speaker 1: So again, one of the things that's very funny about

2314
02:12:27,800 --> 02:12:30,000
Speaker 1: this is the amount of time he spends flipping out

2315
02:12:30,040 --> 02:12:33,160
Speaker 1: over this dog shit AR style shotgun. For those of

2316
02:12:33,160 --> 02:12:36,120
Speaker 1: you who aren't gun people, the Turks make a number

2317
02:12:36,120 --> 02:12:39,120
Speaker 1: of different shotguns that kind of look like AR fifteen's.

2318
02:12:39,520 --> 02:12:41,840
Speaker 1: They're all very impressive looking to people who don't know

2319
02:12:41,840 --> 02:12:44,560
Speaker 1: anything about guns. They're terrible weapons. One of the reasons

2320
02:12:44,560 --> 02:12:47,640
Speaker 1: they're terrible is that shotgun shells do not work well

2321
02:12:47,680 --> 02:12:51,960
Speaker 1: in magazines. The reason most shotguns are tube fed because like,

2322
02:12:52,160 --> 02:12:54,400
Speaker 1: shot shells are plastic and they have a weird shape

2323
02:12:54,440 --> 02:12:56,200
Speaker 1: to them, and if you stick them in a magazine

2324
02:12:56,280 --> 02:12:58,680
Speaker 1: like a normal bullet, they just tend to like jam

2325
02:12:58,760 --> 02:13:01,120
Speaker 1: and misfeed a lot. It's just we're not a good

2326
02:13:01,200 --> 02:13:02,640
Speaker 1: way for it. Yeah, exactly.

2327
02:13:04,400 --> 02:13:07,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the one gun, the one actually like produced

2328
02:13:07,840 --> 02:13:10,360
Speaker 3: in a factory gun that I'm aware of that the

2329
02:13:10,360 --> 02:13:12,000
Speaker 3: folks in ME and R are like, now, fuck it.

2330
02:13:12,000 --> 02:13:17,840
Speaker 1: Will just three, like we are desperate, but these are

2331
02:13:17,960 --> 02:13:20,320
Speaker 1: just and he like he spends a lot of time

2332
02:13:20,400 --> 02:13:22,400
Speaker 1: like talking about how cheap guns are. You can get

2333
02:13:22,440 --> 02:13:25,040
Speaker 1: guns here cheaper than you can anywhere else, because like

2334
02:13:25,080 --> 02:13:27,200
Speaker 1: this ar shotgun is two hundred bucks, Like, man, I

2335
02:13:27,200 --> 02:13:30,080
Speaker 1: can get an ar shotgun for two hundred bucks in Portland, Oregon.

2336
02:13:30,280 --> 02:13:36,880
Speaker 1: They're terrible, nobody wants them. So he does eventually go

2337
02:13:37,040 --> 02:13:39,720
Speaker 1: out with what he claims is the Taliban. As far

2338
02:13:39,760 --> 02:13:41,720
Speaker 1: as I can tell, it's a guy who has an

2339
02:13:41,840 --> 02:13:45,320
Speaker 1: M sixteen that he probably paid like a hundred bucks

2340
02:13:45,360 --> 02:13:48,440
Speaker 1: to go shooting with. Right, maybe the guy, like a

2341
02:13:48,440 --> 02:13:52,560
Speaker 1: lot of people in Afghanistan are technically the Taliban, but

2342
02:13:53,000 --> 02:13:56,080
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean like much, right, Like at this point,

2343
02:13:56,160 --> 02:13:59,080
Speaker 1: they're the government, like you know, you get like your uncle,

2344
02:13:59,320 --> 02:14:01,680
Speaker 1: you know, gets you a fucking gig or something watching

2345
02:14:01,720 --> 02:14:03,320
Speaker 1: a road or whatever. I don't know. I don't know

2346
02:14:03,320 --> 02:14:06,680
Speaker 1: anything about this guy. He claims he's the Taliban. So

2347
02:14:06,720 --> 02:14:08,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna play you a clip of him shooting this

2348
02:14:08,880 --> 02:14:10,360
Speaker 1: guy's sixteen.

2349
02:14:12,440 --> 02:14:17,440
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, another one.

2350
02:14:17,520 --> 02:14:20,160
Speaker 1: No hearing protection sweeping people.

2351
02:14:22,880 --> 02:14:24,560
Speaker 5: Just sweeps him again, the.

2352
02:14:28,160 --> 02:14:34,240
Speaker 7: Move, thank you.

2353
02:14:34,960 --> 02:14:39,080
Speaker 1: The Taliban guy is visibly nervous about him using the gun.

2354
02:14:41,760 --> 02:14:43,240
Speaker 3: He's mad he got that vacuum one.

2355
02:14:43,560 --> 02:14:51,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's backing away.

2356
02:14:53,120 --> 02:14:53,800
Speaker 3: He's just like.

2357
02:14:55,280 --> 02:15:01,120
Speaker 1: Shooting into the air. I love how like visibly nervous.

2358
02:15:01,160 --> 02:15:06,520
Speaker 1: The Taliban guy is his legs with the gun, like

2359
02:15:06,640 --> 02:15:09,560
Speaker 1: points the barrel at that guy's legs like three different times,

2360
02:15:10,440 --> 02:15:13,839
Speaker 1: shoots up into the air. He's just an incompetent asshole

2361
02:15:13,880 --> 02:15:14,200
Speaker 1: with it.

2362
02:15:14,600 --> 02:15:17,760
Speaker 4: He's doing all of these like like eighties action movie poses.

2363
02:15:18,040 --> 02:15:23,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, touch, It's It's very stupid. He has no hearing

2364
02:15:23,960 --> 02:15:27,120
Speaker 1: protection and so he like hurts his ears like yeah,

2365
02:15:27,600 --> 02:15:33,200
Speaker 1: it's it's It's just comprehensively stupid and sad. So this

2366
02:15:33,360 --> 02:15:36,040
Speaker 1: video was dumb. Shortly after filming it, Miles met up

2367
02:15:36,040 --> 02:15:38,400
Speaker 1: with two other UK citizens who were in the country,

2368
02:15:38,440 --> 02:15:40,960
Speaker 1: one of whom was he's described in most of the

2369
02:15:41,000 --> 02:15:43,120
Speaker 1: news articles I read it is just a charity medic

2370
02:15:43,600 --> 02:15:46,800
Speaker 1: and it's this is all a little unclear. It seems

2371
02:15:46,840 --> 02:15:49,880
Speaker 1: like this guy was in possession of a firearm without

2372
02:15:49,920 --> 02:15:53,240
Speaker 1: a proper permit. He claims that he has a permit,

2373
02:15:53,320 --> 02:15:56,280
Speaker 1: but that was lost or something whatever. At any rate,

2374
02:15:56,600 --> 02:15:59,840
Speaker 1: Miles goes missing in early March, and after several days

2375
02:15:59,840 --> 02:16:02,440
Speaker 1: that Taliban announces that they've taken him and these two

2376
02:16:02,440 --> 02:16:06,360
Speaker 1: other British guys and also two Polish guys into custody.

2377
02:16:06,680 --> 02:16:09,440
Speaker 1: And it's a little unclear why, but it seems to

2378
02:16:09,480 --> 02:16:12,200
Speaker 1: be due to like them breaking some laws with guns.

2379
02:16:12,520 --> 02:16:14,040
Speaker 1: It also may have something to do with the fact

2380
02:16:14,040 --> 02:16:18,720
Speaker 1: that Miles broke the law entering the country. He seems

2381
02:16:18,760 --> 02:16:21,600
Speaker 1: to be being treated reasonably well at present, it's unclear

2382
02:16:21,680 --> 02:16:25,440
Speaker 1: what's going to happen to him. I hope, I mean honestly, like,

2383
02:16:25,720 --> 02:16:27,320
Speaker 1: of all the people who deserve to be in a

2384
02:16:27,360 --> 02:16:33,920
Speaker 1: Taliban prison, Miles Rutledge is the one that's amazing, Like yeah,

2385
02:16:34,040 --> 02:16:36,480
Speaker 1: keep that go ahead and keep that guy Taliban, like.

2386
02:16:39,320 --> 02:16:42,680
Speaker 5: Solid very excited for whoever is in the Prime Minister's

2387
02:16:42,720 --> 02:16:46,600
Speaker 5: chair next week to like maybe get around to start.

2388
02:16:46,360 --> 02:16:52,480
Speaker 14: Negotiating with the Taliban. They don't the British, the British

2389
02:16:52,520 --> 02:16:54,760
Speaker 14: Far and Office just don't give a fuck anymore. Like

2390
02:16:54,840 --> 02:16:57,600
Speaker 14: I've had to contact them with when colleagues have been detained,

2391
02:16:57,640 --> 02:17:00,959
Speaker 14: et cetera, and like they'll literally be a now computer

2392
02:17:01,040 --> 02:17:04,119
Speaker 14: says no and just like tight fuck off.

2393
02:17:04,320 --> 02:17:06,039
Speaker 4: Like so hopefully they do the same for him.

2394
02:17:06,680 --> 02:17:09,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't. I haven't seen anything like the late

2395
02:17:09,160 --> 02:17:11,640
Speaker 1: most recent news stories about him were like more than

2396
02:17:11,640 --> 02:17:15,000
Speaker 1: a week ago. It looks like, uh, yeah, I'm not

2397
02:17:15,040 --> 02:17:18,279
Speaker 1: saying anything recently, so it doesn't look like I'm guessing

2398
02:17:18,280 --> 02:17:20,320
Speaker 1: we would have there'd be some coverage if he'd been freed.

2399
02:17:21,920 --> 02:17:26,560
Speaker 1: The Daily Mail talked to his mom, who apparently was like, yeah,

2400
02:17:26,600 --> 02:17:31,520
Speaker 1: he was. He was there to try to find himself. Yeah,

2401
02:17:31,560 --> 02:17:36,199
Speaker 1: it's very funny, he says. He claims at one point,

2402
02:17:36,280 --> 02:17:38,840
Speaker 1: like yo, guy has been taken by the by Afghan

2403
02:17:38,879 --> 02:17:41,439
Speaker 1: intelligence for taking like a thousand dollars out of Western

2404
02:17:41,520 --> 02:17:44,879
Speaker 1: Union suss amount, no internet, no idea when this will end.

2405
02:17:44,920 --> 02:17:47,720
Speaker 1: Everything is good, but please excuse my lack of communication.

2406
02:17:49,360 --> 02:17:53,120
Speaker 1: That was like March eighth, something like that. And he

2407
02:17:53,160 --> 02:17:56,200
Speaker 1: hasn't really been back on in a while, Like he's

2408
02:17:56,280 --> 02:17:59,200
Speaker 1: kind of been dark for quite a spell, So I

2409
02:17:59,200 --> 02:18:01,800
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe something terrible has happened to him or

2410
02:18:01,800 --> 02:18:04,280
Speaker 1: what's happened to him at which point or in which

2411
02:18:04,320 --> 02:18:09,560
Speaker 1: case like that would be kind of funny fuck him. Yeah,

2412
02:18:09,600 --> 02:18:12,760
Speaker 1: that's where I am officially. Yeah, I mean he fucked

2413
02:18:12,760 --> 02:18:16,120
Speaker 1: around and found out. Yeah, like you keep again man,

2414
02:18:16,160 --> 02:18:19,200
Speaker 1: you want to like, yeah, you keep fucking around. You

2415
02:18:19,280 --> 02:18:22,200
Speaker 1: like go to a place with like a famously like

2416
02:18:22,640 --> 02:18:28,160
Speaker 1: dangerous authoritarian government who are actively hurting people and are like,

2417
02:18:28,240 --> 02:18:30,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to brag about breaking the law for a

2418
02:18:30,480 --> 02:18:33,920
Speaker 1: YouTube video. Yeah, man, maybe they'll get pissed. It's like

2419
02:18:33,959 --> 02:18:37,360
Speaker 1: the same shit with like, obviously the Romanian government is

2420
02:18:37,400 --> 02:18:39,160
Speaker 1: not the Taliban, but like it's the same kind of

2421
02:18:39,160 --> 02:18:41,440
Speaker 1: shit with like Andrew Tate, where you're like, I'm gonna

2422
02:18:41,600 --> 02:18:43,920
Speaker 1: go to this other country and brag about the fact

2423
02:18:43,959 --> 02:18:46,879
Speaker 1: that they're not stopping me from breaking their laws. That's

2424
02:18:46,920 --> 02:18:50,680
Speaker 1: a pretty good way to get them to fucking problems

2425
02:18:50,720 --> 02:18:51,600
Speaker 1: for you.

2426
02:18:51,680 --> 02:18:56,840
Speaker 5: Like, anyway, my favorite Miles post, if I'm remembering this right,

2427
02:18:56,920 --> 02:19:01,879
Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure like two weeks before he like got arrested.

2428
02:19:02,680 --> 02:19:05,640
Speaker 5: He he he posted a tweet about how like he's

2429
02:19:05,680 --> 02:19:09,279
Speaker 5: safer in he's safer in Afghanistan and he is in US.

2430
02:19:09,120 --> 02:19:13,959
Speaker 15: That he would be in San Francisco, in na in Brooklyn. Yeah,

2431
02:19:15,280 --> 02:19:19,840
Speaker 15: he spent no two days, he spent forty eight hours

2432
02:19:19,920 --> 02:19:27,080
Speaker 15: quote unquote homeless in Brooklyn for again for content, And yeah,

2433
02:19:27,120 --> 02:19:29,879
Speaker 15: it is it is funny that like he is in

2434
02:19:30,040 --> 02:19:30,800
Speaker 15: a lot of trouble.

2435
02:19:30,840 --> 02:19:36,480
Speaker 3: Now he tried to go to Mission Texas as well.

2436
02:19:36,520 --> 02:19:38,120
Speaker 3: I don't know if he ever went, but he was

2437
02:19:38,120 --> 02:19:40,120
Speaker 3: going to do so I missed that. Yeah, he was

2438
02:19:40,120 --> 02:19:43,160
Speaker 3: gonna do something fucking horrific with people crossing the Rio Grande.

2439
02:19:43,760 --> 02:19:51,520
Speaker 1: Oh god, oh see the look. You're not gonna hear

2440
02:19:51,600 --> 02:19:54,959
Speaker 1: this often from me, but critical support to the Taliban,

2441
02:19:55,280 --> 02:19:58,480
Speaker 1: like they're they're they're really fighting the good fight for

2442
02:19:58,520 --> 02:19:59,000
Speaker 1: all of us.

2443
02:19:59,040 --> 02:20:03,959
Speaker 16: By caving this guy behind bars, I was it initially

2444
02:20:04,000 --> 02:20:06,240
Speaker 16: seemed like he had he had fallen into the hands

2445
02:20:06,280 --> 02:20:10,039
Speaker 16: of like the Islamic State Chorussan Province, and yeah, I'm

2446
02:20:10,120 --> 02:20:12,280
Speaker 16: gonna have to Yeah, you.

2447
02:20:12,440 --> 02:20:14,320
Speaker 3: Rarely have to hand it to Islamic State, but we

2448
02:20:14,840 --> 02:20:16,599
Speaker 3: may have had that one occasion.

2449
02:20:16,360 --> 02:20:18,600
Speaker 1: That don't give ices a lot of credit, but that

2450
02:20:19,959 --> 02:20:22,400
Speaker 1: it is, like you know what, I'll just I'm gonna

2451
02:20:22,400 --> 02:20:24,040
Speaker 1: go ahead and say this on behalf of the rest

2452
02:20:24,040 --> 02:20:26,800
Speaker 1: of the world, Taliban, if you keep him locked up,

2453
02:20:27,080 --> 02:20:30,199
Speaker 1: you know, we will erase one of those big Buddha

2454
02:20:30,280 --> 02:20:33,240
Speaker 1: statues from like the list of Taliban crimes. We'll all

2455
02:20:33,280 --> 02:20:35,480
Speaker 1: agree to forget one of the Buddhas. Like, hold, I

2456
02:20:35,920 --> 02:20:39,880
Speaker 1: feel like I'm not signing on to this. I'm so

2457
02:20:40,080 --> 02:20:46,080
Speaker 1: bad about the Buddhas. I just come on, we need

2458
02:20:46,120 --> 02:20:52,480
Speaker 1: all the Buddhas. Anyway, Fuck this guy.

2459
02:20:53,080 --> 02:20:53,400
Speaker 5: Yea.

2460
02:20:55,080 --> 02:20:56,840
Speaker 3: Side, I hope they're feeding him tofu.

2461
02:20:57,360 --> 02:20:59,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope they're feeding him all of the soy

2462
02:20:59,600 --> 02:21:03,080
Speaker 1: and after anastea like fucking park a soy truck up

2463
02:21:03,080 --> 02:21:07,760
Speaker 1: to that guy's cell. Anyway, that's a story, Like there's

2464
02:21:07,800 --> 02:21:11,800
Speaker 1: these guys are like, especially in the social media. I mean,

2465
02:21:11,800 --> 02:21:14,240
Speaker 1: they've always been a part of war and of conflict.

2466
02:21:15,520 --> 02:21:17,760
Speaker 1: You know, there's a degree to which like this is

2467
02:21:18,040 --> 02:21:20,680
Speaker 1: a not a news story like this is actually kind

2468
02:21:20,720 --> 02:21:23,520
Speaker 1: of a one of the older stories in human history.

2469
02:21:23,600 --> 02:21:27,320
Speaker 1: Is like dudes kind of stumbling into war zones in

2470
02:21:27,480 --> 02:21:31,000
Speaker 1: order to write about it or otherwise like make it

2471
02:21:31,080 --> 02:21:38,520
Speaker 1: about them. So, you know, uh, fuck these people and

2472
02:21:38,640 --> 02:21:43,560
Speaker 1: fuck Miles Rutledge in specific. I hope we I hope

2473
02:21:43,560 --> 02:21:46,480
Speaker 1: he winds up like those Venezuelan merks or not there.

2474
02:21:46,480 --> 02:21:47,000
Speaker 4: I mean they weren't.

2475
02:21:47,560 --> 02:21:50,360
Speaker 1: They were in Venezuela who are caught on video pissing

2476
02:21:50,360 --> 02:21:54,320
Speaker 1: themselves and then lying in the piss. That's that's my

2477
02:21:54,440 --> 02:21:58,080
Speaker 1: dream for Miles Rutledge spending some time lying in piss

2478
02:21:58,160 --> 02:22:02,959
Speaker 1: before he's sent back to the UK. Yeah, that's what

2479
02:22:03,040 --> 02:22:03,360
Speaker 1: I got.

2480
02:22:04,040 --> 02:22:07,480
Speaker 3: Nice. Hopefully they revoke his fucking citizenship like that they

2481
02:22:07,520 --> 02:22:10,480
Speaker 3: did to the British.

2482
02:22:10,520 --> 02:22:13,360
Speaker 1: He did make a bunch of posts about how cool

2483
02:22:13,400 --> 02:22:17,360
Speaker 1: the Taliban were, So I don't know, like, yeah, we

2484
02:22:17,400 --> 02:22:20,640
Speaker 1: can drink. Look, man, you said you wanted to live there. Uh,

2485
02:22:21,400 --> 02:22:25,760
Speaker 1: here you go. Yeah, I don't know. I think he's

2486
02:22:25,800 --> 02:22:28,280
Speaker 1: a dick, and I think this is funny. That's my

2487
02:22:28,400 --> 02:22:29,199
Speaker 1: official stance.

2488
02:22:45,160 --> 02:22:46,000
Speaker 3: Happy Earth Day.

2489
02:22:46,040 --> 02:22:47,800
Speaker 5: And by Happy Earth's Day, I mean the Earth is

2490
02:22:47,879 --> 02:22:52,560
Speaker 5: dying and people are killing it. Yeah, welcome, welcome. Did

2491
02:22:52,600 --> 02:22:55,199
Speaker 5: it happened here the Earth Day episode?

2492
02:22:55,840 --> 02:22:56,080
Speaker 16: Now?

2493
02:22:56,200 --> 02:22:59,320
Speaker 1: Now, now, quick question me? What is Earth?

2494
02:23:00,800 --> 02:23:03,920
Speaker 5: So? The Earth is one of many, many, many planets

2495
02:23:03,920 --> 02:23:08,520
Speaker 5: in the universe. It was, it's cagealed rock. There's some

2496
02:23:08,720 --> 02:23:12,280
Speaker 5: like melty shit in the middle of it, but on

2497
02:23:12,280 --> 02:23:14,000
Speaker 5: the outside, there's a part of it that's nice to

2498
02:23:14,040 --> 02:23:18,039
Speaker 5: live on, and it'd be nice to continue to have.

2499
02:23:18,160 --> 02:23:18,680
Speaker 10: It be that.

2500
02:23:19,840 --> 02:23:20,200
Speaker 4: Ah.

2501
02:23:20,240 --> 02:23:22,720
Speaker 1: Okay, this is different than what I had been raised

2502
02:23:22,760 --> 02:23:26,280
Speaker 1: to believe. But I'll humor you here. Please continue.

2503
02:23:27,200 --> 02:23:29,080
Speaker 5: Yes, And so okay, we are we going to be

2504
02:23:29,080 --> 02:23:34,199
Speaker 5: talking today about one of the many attempts to destroy

2505
02:23:34,240 --> 02:23:36,680
Speaker 5: the Earth and also Garrison this year too.

2506
02:23:36,680 --> 02:23:41,320
Speaker 4: Hello, yes hi, I'm here also for the Earth for

2507
02:23:41,360 --> 02:23:41,760
Speaker 4: the Earth.

2508
02:23:41,840 --> 02:23:46,439
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, and this is a special episode featuring a bombing.

2509
02:23:47,000 --> 02:23:49,120
Speaker 1: So it is ah, I love a good bombing.

2510
02:23:49,320 --> 02:23:52,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is very exciting. Actually, tally speaking, it's two bombs.

2511
02:23:53,680 --> 02:23:57,480
Speaker 5: So it is near midnight on July tenth, nineteen eighty five.

2512
02:23:57,640 --> 02:24:00,200
Speaker 5: The crew of the Green Peace boat Rainbow Warrior Year,

2513
02:24:00,240 --> 02:24:02,320
Speaker 5: which is docked in the harbor of Auckland, which is

2514
02:24:02,320 --> 02:24:04,880
Speaker 5: New Zealand's largest city. A thing that I learned rob

2515
02:24:04,879 --> 02:24:06,040
Speaker 5: researching this episode.

2516
02:24:06,160 --> 02:24:09,120
Speaker 4: Wait, really, that's New Zealand's largest city. Yeah, yeah, there's not.

2517
02:24:09,240 --> 02:24:12,000
Speaker 1: There's not a lot in New Zealand other than Hobbits

2518
02:24:12,120 --> 02:24:14,119
Speaker 1: and that one show about vampires.

2519
02:24:15,200 --> 02:24:17,280
Speaker 5: A lot of cheese too that they make, make make

2520
02:24:17,320 --> 02:24:18,600
Speaker 5: a lot of make a lot of milk.

2521
02:24:19,640 --> 02:24:20,160
Speaker 4: So they did.

2522
02:24:20,280 --> 02:24:22,959
Speaker 5: Yeah, the greepiest boat is. It is docked in this harbor.

2523
02:24:23,120 --> 02:24:24,600
Speaker 5: Most of the crew is asleep or some of them

2524
02:24:24,600 --> 02:24:26,880
Speaker 5: are playing cards, and they are they are relaxing after

2525
02:24:26,920 --> 02:24:28,320
Speaker 5: having celebrated the birthday.

2526
02:24:28,080 --> 02:24:28,840
Speaker 4: Of one of their crews.

2527
02:24:29,560 --> 02:24:32,560
Speaker 5: Suddenly a massive shock rips through the boat. Water starts

2528
02:24:32,600 --> 02:24:35,039
Speaker 5: flooding into the ship. Lights go out, and the crew

2529
02:24:35,040 --> 02:24:37,240
Speaker 5: thinks they've been hit by a tug boat by accident.

2530
02:24:39,040 --> 02:24:42,800
Speaker 5: That lasts a couple of minutes until a second explosion

2531
02:24:42,840 --> 02:24:43,520
Speaker 5: hits the boat.

2532
02:24:44,080 --> 02:24:47,000
Speaker 4: Mister President, a second explosion has hit the boat.

2533
02:24:47,280 --> 02:24:47,840
Speaker 3: Nine to eleven.

2534
02:24:47,920 --> 02:24:50,760
Speaker 1: Joke, Yes, very excellent, good work.

2535
02:24:51,640 --> 02:24:53,920
Speaker 5: So the crew the light like the people fleeing nine

2536
02:24:53,920 --> 02:24:55,920
Speaker 5: to eleven. The crew flees the boat, but they realize

2537
02:24:55,959 --> 02:24:59,000
Speaker 5: that their photographer, a guy named Fernando Perieira, is missing.

2538
02:24:59,200 --> 02:25:02,680
Speaker 5: Peri Era like it hasn't quite realized that the boat

2539
02:25:02,720 --> 02:25:05,480
Speaker 5: is like under attack, and so he runs back to

2540
02:25:05,520 --> 02:25:07,720
Speaker 5: his cabin to grab his camera, and then the second

2541
02:25:07,720 --> 02:25:09,560
Speaker 5: explosion hits in the boat sinks so fast that he

2542
02:25:09,600 --> 02:25:11,160
Speaker 5: never has a chance to get back up.

2543
02:25:12,320 --> 02:25:14,000
Speaker 4: And he drowns to death.

2544
02:25:14,959 --> 02:25:17,039
Speaker 5: And the crew very quickly realizes that this is not

2545
02:25:17,120 --> 02:25:21,240
Speaker 5: an accident, and rescue divers discovered there are massive there's

2546
02:25:21,320 --> 02:25:23,400
Speaker 5: like massive holes in the ship from where I've been

2547
02:25:23,400 --> 02:25:27,560
Speaker 5: blown up from the outside, and they eventually determined that

2548
02:25:27,680 --> 02:25:30,440
Speaker 5: this boat, which is again a green piece boat that

2549
02:25:30,520 --> 02:25:32,800
Speaker 5: is doing non violence of with disobedience, has been sunk

2550
02:25:32,840 --> 02:25:33,920
Speaker 5: by limpet mines.

2551
02:25:34,800 --> 02:25:37,879
Speaker 1: Oh boy, oh, I love a good limp at mine.

2552
02:25:38,120 --> 02:25:40,400
Speaker 1: I'm so happy that we're we're getting limpet mines in

2553
02:25:40,440 --> 02:25:40,960
Speaker 1: this episode.

2554
02:25:41,000 --> 02:25:42,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, yea, we're getting we're getting limp at mines. We're

2555
02:25:42,720 --> 02:25:45,160
Speaker 5: getting there'll be some special Forces boats later or I

2556
02:25:45,160 --> 02:25:49,279
Speaker 5: say boats is one boat, but yeah, we're gonna we're

2557
02:25:49,320 --> 02:25:53,560
Speaker 5: going through all of the sort of naval combat bits here. Excellent,

2558
02:25:53,840 --> 02:25:56,160
Speaker 5: But this raises the question who would commit such an

2559
02:25:56,200 --> 02:25:59,280
Speaker 5: act of terrorism on the I can't actually say on

2560
02:25:59,320 --> 02:26:01,080
Speaker 5: the soil of news Land because it's technically in the

2561
02:26:01,120 --> 02:26:02,200
Speaker 5: water of New Zealand.

2562
02:26:03,360 --> 02:26:04,640
Speaker 4: In the waters of New Zealand.

2563
02:26:04,720 --> 02:26:07,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, off the coast of New Zealand. Sure, yeah,

2564
02:26:07,760 --> 02:26:08,240
Speaker 1: we get it.

2565
02:26:08,640 --> 02:26:11,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, But okay, So to answer this question, we need

2566
02:26:11,040 --> 02:26:14,360
Speaker 5: to talk about the anti nuclear movements. And you know,

2567
02:26:14,760 --> 02:26:17,800
Speaker 5: there's been a kind of rewriting of history about what

2568
02:26:18,120 --> 02:26:21,880
Speaker 5: the anti nuclear movement was actually about to basically like

2569
02:26:21,920 --> 02:26:24,120
Speaker 5: sort of purely focused on the anti nuclear movement as

2570
02:26:24,120 --> 02:26:25,480
Speaker 5: something it's just about nuclear.

2571
02:26:25,160 --> 02:26:26,560
Speaker 4: Power, but that was never true.

2572
02:26:26,760 --> 02:26:29,480
Speaker 5: The movement was always way more larger than that, and

2573
02:26:29,520 --> 02:26:32,000
Speaker 5: a huge part of it was about opposing nuclear weapons,

2574
02:26:32,040 --> 02:26:35,240
Speaker 5: both in terms of like opposing nuclear tests and in

2575
02:26:35,320 --> 02:26:37,560
Speaker 5: terms of fighting for nuclear disarmament. On the fairly simple

2576
02:26:37,600 --> 02:26:40,480
Speaker 5: principle that having weapons that can kill everyone on Earth

2577
02:26:40,520 --> 02:26:41,800
Speaker 5: around is a bad idea.

2578
02:26:43,800 --> 02:26:46,080
Speaker 4: Well, I mean the bad idea if you don't want

2579
02:26:46,120 --> 02:26:48,640
Speaker 4: to destroy the entire earth. But yeah, that's true.

2580
02:26:48,760 --> 02:26:50,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you want to destroy the Earth, that's a

2581
02:26:50,720 --> 02:26:51,600
Speaker 1: pretty good idea.

2582
02:26:51,720 --> 02:26:54,560
Speaker 5: Actually, unfortunately, I'm on a living kick right now, so

2583
02:26:54,680 --> 02:26:57,080
Speaker 5: I'm not anti destroying everything on Earth.

2584
02:26:57,840 --> 02:26:58,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2585
02:26:58,400 --> 02:27:00,960
Speaker 1: It's good that you can admit your bio upfront though,

2586
02:27:01,000 --> 02:27:01,400
Speaker 1: that's yeah.

2587
02:27:01,560 --> 02:27:05,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is a very important thing in journalism. Yeah,

2588
02:27:05,640 --> 02:27:07,760
Speaker 5: so you know, Okay, so when we were talking a

2589
02:27:07,760 --> 02:27:10,080
Speaker 5: bit about nuclear testing, because it doesn't it doesn't happen

2590
02:27:10,120 --> 02:27:13,800
Speaker 5: anymore nuclear testing. Okay, so we used to just like

2591
02:27:14,040 --> 02:27:17,039
Speaker 5: detonate nuclear bombs like in the.

2592
02:27:17,040 --> 02:27:19,440
Speaker 1: Addamn right, you're goddamn right, we did.

2593
02:27:20,120 --> 02:27:22,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it turns out this this kills enormous numbers

2594
02:27:22,879 --> 02:27:25,160
Speaker 5: of people. But the problem is that it kills them

2595
02:27:25,240 --> 02:27:28,160
Speaker 5: very slowly with increased cancer rates, which is very difficult

2596
02:27:28,160 --> 02:27:31,879
Speaker 5: to sort of track or like prove direct causality. And

2597
02:27:31,920 --> 02:27:34,120
Speaker 5: you know, this is aided by the fact that when

2598
02:27:34,120 --> 02:27:38,160
Speaker 5: countries are nuclear testing, they are almost always killing people.

2599
02:27:38,200 --> 02:27:41,080
Speaker 5: Well they're almost always dropping this the nukes on indigenous land,

2600
02:27:41,360 --> 02:27:43,560
Speaker 5: which means that they're killing people who are the government

2601
02:27:43,600 --> 02:27:45,440
Speaker 5: and most of the countries just like does not care

2602
02:27:45,480 --> 02:27:49,360
Speaker 5: about and you know, you can you can literally map

2603
02:27:49,400 --> 02:27:53,240
Speaker 5: colonialism and sort of the value that a given like

2604
02:27:53,240 --> 02:27:55,360
Speaker 5: a given state placed on people's lives by you know,

2605
02:27:55,400 --> 02:27:57,560
Speaker 5: where they test the nuclear weapons. So, for example, the

2606
02:27:57,680 --> 02:28:00,400
Speaker 5: US tests the nuclear bombs in places like the Bikinia Toll,

2607
02:28:01,240 --> 02:28:03,920
Speaker 5: the Marshall Islands, a former tribal land in Nevada, in

2608
02:28:03,920 --> 02:28:06,680
Speaker 5: New Mexico, and in Hatesburg, Mississippi.

2609
02:28:07,720 --> 02:28:14,119
Speaker 4: Okay, so Jesus Christ, all those are bad except except Mississippi.

2610
02:28:14,240 --> 02:28:18,840
Speaker 5: No, that was also bad because guess get guess get

2611
02:28:18,840 --> 02:28:21,199
Speaker 5: guess what race the population of Hatesville.

2612
02:28:20,800 --> 02:28:21,640
Speaker 4: Mississippi was.

2613
02:28:21,680 --> 02:28:26,039
Speaker 5: Okay, all right, yeah, they got paid ten dollars to

2614
02:28:26,080 --> 02:28:28,720
Speaker 5: get relocated quote unquote, yeah this is this is this

2615
02:28:28,760 --> 02:28:30,880
Speaker 5: is not a white it's not a white city.

2616
02:28:31,200 --> 02:28:33,800
Speaker 4: They are blowing up with a nuclear bomp. Not like

2617
02:28:33,879 --> 02:28:36,640
Speaker 4: it's not like a gated community for white men in

2618
02:28:36,680 --> 02:28:37,680
Speaker 4: their fifties or something.

2619
02:28:37,680 --> 02:28:41,359
Speaker 5: No, no, no, The only.

2620
02:28:41,160 --> 02:28:44,040
Speaker 1: Good nuclear testing we did was back in the day

2621
02:28:44,040 --> 02:28:46,600
Speaker 1: when they used to set off nukes right outside of Vegas,

2622
02:28:46,720 --> 02:28:49,120
Speaker 1: and so all of the Vegas people would watch the

2623
02:28:49,200 --> 02:28:52,360
Speaker 1: nukes go off and then get irradiated. That was that

2624
02:28:52,560 --> 02:28:53,480
Speaker 1: was kind of funny.

2625
02:28:53,640 --> 02:28:56,160
Speaker 5: Yeah. They also they also were radiated the area fifty

2626
02:28:56,160 --> 02:28:58,680
Speaker 5: one people one time, and that was also extremely funny.

2627
02:28:59,000 --> 02:29:02,440
Speaker 1: They shared did and there was that like guy I

2628
02:29:02,440 --> 02:29:04,960
Speaker 1: think it was uranium. There was like one of the

2629
02:29:05,040 --> 02:29:07,440
Speaker 1: dudes who was on the Manhattan Project. There was this

2630
02:29:07,600 --> 02:29:10,640
Speaker 1: like dude who there was like an accident and he

2631
02:29:11,000 --> 02:29:15,119
Speaker 1: just sucked down a bunch of nuclear fuel and they

2632
02:29:15,160 --> 02:29:17,039
Speaker 1: had to like he could never work in a lab

2633
02:29:17,080 --> 02:29:20,560
Speaker 1: again after that, and he every for like decades afterwards.

2634
02:29:20,560 --> 02:29:24,040
Speaker 1: His breath tested positive for like radioactivity, but he loved

2635
02:29:24,040 --> 02:29:26,560
Speaker 1: to be like eighty something like. It didn't him doesn't

2636
02:29:26,560 --> 02:29:29,320
Speaker 1: seem to have heard him. He says it tasted kind

2637
02:29:29,360 --> 02:29:34,199
Speaker 1: of like like sour candy. Well, okay, so he's tasted

2638
02:29:34,200 --> 02:29:37,240
Speaker 1: there forbidden nuclear water. Yeah, no one else has to.

2639
02:29:37,320 --> 02:29:40,360
Speaker 1: Now we know what it tastes like. Yeah, oh yeah,

2640
02:29:40,400 --> 02:29:43,440
Speaker 1: Donald Mastic was he was sprayed in the face with

2641
02:29:43,480 --> 02:29:48,760
Speaker 1: liquid plutonium chloride and swallowed some. But apparently that's fine.

2642
02:29:48,920 --> 02:29:52,560
Speaker 1: So there you go. Everybody drinks some plutonium, you'll live

2643
02:29:52,600 --> 02:29:54,440
Speaker 1: a long life.

2644
02:29:55,800 --> 02:29:58,440
Speaker 5: So the US, I guess, I guess also tests it

2645
02:29:58,560 --> 02:30:02,039
Speaker 5: on their nuclear scientists. But yeah, so that those are

2646
02:30:02,120 --> 02:30:05,680
Speaker 5: the US. The USSR testa nukes in Kazakhstan, which there's

2647
02:30:05,680 --> 02:30:07,000
Speaker 5: an amazing story about.

2648
02:30:06,800 --> 02:30:08,280
Speaker 4: Barria going when there's nobody.

2649
02:30:08,320 --> 02:30:10,160
Speaker 5: Nobody lives in this part and nobody lives in Kazakstan,

2650
02:30:10,280 --> 02:30:11,040
Speaker 5: so we'll be fine.

2651
02:30:11,560 --> 02:30:14,520
Speaker 10: Mm hmm. It's like, okay, Baria people, in fact, you

2652
02:30:14,560 --> 02:30:14,959
Speaker 10: live there.

2653
02:30:15,920 --> 02:30:18,520
Speaker 5: China tests this nukes in a site called lop Nor,

2654
02:30:18,560 --> 02:30:20,800
Speaker 5: which is in shing John because of course it is.

2655
02:30:21,560 --> 02:30:24,560
Speaker 5: And the French do their test in the Sahara in

2656
02:30:24,600 --> 02:30:29,120
Speaker 5: Algeria until the Algerian revolution forces them out, which good

2657
02:30:29,160 --> 02:30:32,040
Speaker 5: for them, death of betrayers, the Algerian Workers councils et cetera,

2658
02:30:32,040 --> 02:30:35,959
Speaker 5: et cetera, et cetera. But this means that the French

2659
02:30:36,480 --> 02:30:39,720
Speaker 5: now no longer being able to bomb like their conorizsessions

2660
02:30:39,760 --> 02:30:43,920
Speaker 5: in Algeria. Yeah, they they they start testing the nuclear

2661
02:30:43,959 --> 02:30:50,359
Speaker 5: weapons on particularly the Moreau.

2662
02:30:50,760 --> 02:30:53,000
Speaker 4: I don't know how to pronounce this. I'm really sorry.

2663
02:30:53,040 --> 02:30:56,000
Speaker 4: What is a toll in the in the south the

2664
02:30:56,000 --> 02:30:56,560
Speaker 4: South Pacific?

2665
02:30:57,360 --> 02:30:59,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that sounds close enough. Yeah, sure, yeah, And.

2666
02:31:00,400 --> 02:31:04,320
Speaker 5: So they they start these tests like in secret. So

2667
02:31:04,360 --> 02:31:06,959
Speaker 5: there are there are people on islands nearby who don't

2668
02:31:07,000 --> 02:31:08,959
Speaker 5: know what those nukes going off, like, the don't even

2669
02:31:09,000 --> 02:31:12,320
Speaker 5: a bomb shelters. Right, it's really loud these days.

2670
02:31:13,520 --> 02:31:15,840
Speaker 1: Anybody notice how loud it's gotten here.

2671
02:31:16,640 --> 02:31:18,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like, you know, you could see the fucking

2672
02:31:18,480 --> 02:31:19,400
Speaker 4: mushroom cloud. Right.

2673
02:31:19,520 --> 02:31:23,120
Speaker 5: But like these people, you know, the French military sciences

2674
02:31:23,200 --> 02:31:24,520
Speaker 5: are like, oh, it's fine, they're not going to be

2675
02:31:24,520 --> 02:31:27,440
Speaker 5: in the fall out They're unbelievably in the fallout radius.

2676
02:31:27,840 --> 02:31:31,240
Speaker 1: If anyone ever tells you you're not in a fallout radius,

2677
02:31:31,360 --> 02:31:33,600
Speaker 1: that's your first sign that you are, in fact in

2678
02:31:33,640 --> 02:31:34,800
Speaker 1: a fallout radius.

2679
02:31:34,879 --> 02:31:37,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's never it's never a great it's never a

2680
02:31:37,120 --> 02:31:39,119
Speaker 5: great sign. I don't think that's happening.

2681
02:31:39,560 --> 02:31:41,920
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone has ever assured a group of

2682
02:31:41,959 --> 02:31:44,640
Speaker 1: people that they're not going to be exposed to radiation

2683
02:31:44,760 --> 02:31:45,840
Speaker 1: and been telling the truth.

2684
02:31:46,280 --> 02:31:47,160
Speaker 4: Here's the thing. Here's the thing.

2685
02:31:47,320 --> 02:31:49,640
Speaker 5: If if they had merely gone to these people and

2686
02:31:49,680 --> 02:31:51,440
Speaker 5: said you're not going to be exposed to radiation, it

2687
02:31:51,440 --> 02:31:53,760
Speaker 5: would have been better, because then then at least it

2688
02:31:53,760 --> 02:31:55,200
Speaker 5: would have had a chance. They just didn't tell these

2689
02:31:55,200 --> 02:31:57,280
Speaker 5: people at all. They were testing a news sure, they

2690
02:31:57,360 --> 02:32:01,840
Speaker 5: just blew it up great, and so they detonate like

2691
02:32:02,000 --> 02:32:02,840
Speaker 5: they detonate.

2692
02:32:02,640 --> 02:32:04,480
Speaker 4: Nukes all over Polynesia.

2693
02:32:06,040 --> 02:32:09,440
Speaker 5: In Actually a few years ago there was a there

2694
02:32:09,480 --> 02:32:12,680
Speaker 5: was a thing called the Moreau Files, which was a

2695
02:32:12,680 --> 02:32:14,680
Speaker 5: bunch of investigative journalist goot together. They got a bunch

2696
02:32:14,680 --> 02:32:18,240
Speaker 5: of classified French military documents. They did, they got some

2697
02:32:18,240 --> 02:32:22,440
Speaker 5: scientists together, and they did a whole thing about the

2698
02:32:22,480 --> 02:32:25,080
Speaker 5: you know, the sort of influence that the effects of

2699
02:32:25,120 --> 02:32:27,960
Speaker 5: this nuclear testing has. And I'm just going to read

2700
02:32:28,000 --> 02:32:31,000
Speaker 5: from that quote. According to our calculations, based on a

2701
02:32:31,040 --> 02:32:35,040
Speaker 5: scientific reassessment of the doses received, approximately one hundred and

2702
02:32:35,080 --> 02:32:39,640
Speaker 5: ten thousand people were infected, almost the entire Polynesian population

2703
02:32:39,760 --> 02:32:40,240
Speaker 5: at the time.

2704
02:32:41,240 --> 02:32:43,760
Speaker 3: Good god, So they radiated.

2705
02:32:43,360 --> 02:32:47,360
Speaker 4: Like the entire population of Polynesia. This is this is great.

2706
02:32:48,360 --> 02:32:52,480
Speaker 1: So I mean that's not ideal. That's not ideal. I'll

2707
02:32:52,480 --> 02:32:53,000
Speaker 1: give them that.

2708
02:32:53,320 --> 02:32:58,520
Speaker 5: And Okay, so I obviously nuclear testing has negative effects

2709
02:32:58,560 --> 02:33:01,199
Speaker 5: on humans. I feel like I don't need to explain

2710
02:33:01,400 --> 02:33:04,400
Speaker 5: how nuclear testing has Dropping a nuclear bomb on a

2711
02:33:04,440 --> 02:33:07,959
Speaker 5: place has a negative effect on the environment, that seems sure,

2712
02:33:08,040 --> 02:33:08,560
Speaker 5: Are you sure?

2713
02:33:09,840 --> 02:33:12,720
Speaker 1: Pretty obvious? I think we're all more or less caught

2714
02:33:12,800 --> 02:33:16,720
Speaker 1: up on nuking things being bad for them, except well,

2715
02:33:17,120 --> 02:33:21,800
Speaker 1: except for underwater aquatic lizards, which seem to do really

2716
02:33:21,840 --> 02:33:23,560
Speaker 1: well when exposed to nuclear tests.

2717
02:33:24,160 --> 02:33:27,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, they look, they can. They have atomic breath. Now

2718
02:33:28,120 --> 02:33:30,560
Speaker 5: they've got absolutely yeah, big big.

2719
02:33:31,440 --> 02:33:34,840
Speaker 1: They get to star in a movie with a surprising

2720
02:33:34,959 --> 02:33:38,680
Speaker 1: number of members of the cast of Simpsons. Yeah, it's

2721
02:33:38,840 --> 02:33:42,080
Speaker 1: it's all. It's all upsides. Oh and that Ferris Bueller

2722
02:33:42,120 --> 02:33:46,080
Speaker 1: I think was in it. So that's pretty good. Yeah.

2723
02:33:46,120 --> 02:33:48,039
Speaker 1: Did these people get to star in a movie with

2724
02:33:48,080 --> 02:33:48,840
Speaker 1: Ferris Bueller.

2725
02:33:49,720 --> 02:33:50,959
Speaker 5: No, they died of.

2726
02:33:54,680 --> 02:33:57,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's unfortunate. That's unfortunate.

2727
02:33:57,560 --> 02:33:57,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2728
02:33:57,800 --> 02:34:00,360
Speaker 5: And so these tests and some other tests the US

2729
02:34:00,440 --> 02:34:02,760
Speaker 5: are doing, the Marshall Islands or the Origin of Green piece.

2730
02:34:03,680 --> 02:34:06,640
Speaker 5: So there have been environmental groups like the Sierra Club

2731
02:34:06,760 --> 02:34:11,160
Speaker 5: have been involved in anty nuclear activism because again, bad,

2732
02:34:11,240 --> 02:34:15,680
Speaker 5: bad for the environment, dropping dukes. But okay, so the

2733
02:34:15,720 --> 02:34:18,320
Speaker 5: activism that the Sierra Club people are doing is based

2734
02:34:18,360 --> 02:34:23,320
Speaker 5: on bearing witness, and the green Peace people rightly are like,

2735
02:34:23,520 --> 02:34:26,760
Speaker 5: fuck bury witness. They are dropping nuclear bombs. We are

2736
02:34:26,800 --> 02:34:28,519
Speaker 5: going to try to stop these bastards.

2737
02:34:29,160 --> 02:34:31,160
Speaker 4: The way you can beat a bad guy with the

2738
02:34:31,240 --> 02:34:33,920
Speaker 4: nuclear bomb is a good guy with the nuclear bomb.

2739
02:34:37,040 --> 02:34:41,320
Speaker 4: I'm introducing a new initiative to arm all green Peace members. Okay,

2740
02:34:41,360 --> 02:34:45,320
Speaker 4: the personal, personal tactical nuke, David Crocket.

2741
02:34:46,120 --> 02:34:49,160
Speaker 5: This is this is I am not kidding France's rationale

2742
02:34:49,200 --> 02:34:51,800
Speaker 5: for why they have nukes, which is that the thing

2743
02:34:51,879 --> 02:34:56,120
Speaker 5: is literally called like this, like the weak deterring the

2744
02:34:56,200 --> 02:34:59,720
Speaker 5: strong or something. And it's like, ma'am, you are France,

2745
02:35:00,360 --> 02:35:04,280
Speaker 5: Like come on, okay, yeah, sure, France is acting for

2746
02:35:04,320 --> 02:35:06,960
Speaker 5: the protection of the weak against the straw.

2747
02:35:07,080 --> 02:35:12,120
Speaker 1: It's like, oh my, I mean, look, I would if

2748
02:35:12,120 --> 02:35:14,480
Speaker 1: I had the option, I would keep a nuke in

2749
02:35:14,480 --> 02:35:19,200
Speaker 1: my basement, you know, just in case, yeah, someone someone

2750
02:35:19,240 --> 02:35:21,480
Speaker 1: comes to my house. You know, we've got I've got

2751
02:35:21,560 --> 02:35:25,960
Speaker 1: the option then, right, like what if because like right now, okay,

2752
02:35:26,400 --> 02:35:30,160
Speaker 1: say Pakistan decides to try to rob my house. I

2753
02:35:30,160 --> 02:35:32,199
Speaker 1: don't have a counter to their nuclear arsenal.

2754
02:35:32,520 --> 02:35:33,039
Speaker 3: But if I.

2755
02:35:33,080 --> 02:35:35,240
Speaker 1: Keep you know, and I'm not even talking to like

2756
02:35:35,360 --> 02:35:39,000
Speaker 1: six to ten megatons in my basement, that's enough, I

2757
02:35:39,040 --> 02:35:42,760
Speaker 1: think to discourage aggression, right or if like my neighbor

2758
02:35:42,920 --> 02:35:45,440
Speaker 1: decides to call the city on me, you know, I've

2759
02:35:45,440 --> 02:35:46,160
Speaker 1: got an option.

2760
02:35:47,040 --> 02:35:48,959
Speaker 5: There's a problem with this plan, which how are you

2761
02:35:49,000 --> 02:35:51,320
Speaker 5: getting the nuke from your apartment to Pakistan?

2762
02:35:52,440 --> 02:35:56,760
Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's if they come to my house. Right,

2763
02:35:57,320 --> 02:35:59,280
Speaker 1: that way I can I can nuke all of my

2764
02:35:59,440 --> 02:36:01,119
Speaker 1: stuff so that they won't want it, and that way

2765
02:36:01,120 --> 02:36:02,560
Speaker 1: they won't rob me in the first place.

2766
02:36:02,640 --> 02:36:07,160
Speaker 5: Right, this makes about as much sense as actual nuclear

2767
02:36:07,440 --> 02:36:10,520
Speaker 5: actual nuclear doctrine. Yeah, it's it's.

2768
02:36:10,440 --> 02:36:13,040
Speaker 1: Worked for decades, Mia, Like, I don't know what your

2769
02:36:13,080 --> 02:36:17,080
Speaker 1: problem is here. If it if it's worked for for

2770
02:36:17,160 --> 02:36:19,560
Speaker 1: all of these great powers, you know, it can work

2771
02:36:19,600 --> 02:36:21,760
Speaker 1: for me. Or I could do what the British do

2772
02:36:22,320 --> 02:36:24,320
Speaker 1: and send you know, some of my some of my

2773
02:36:24,400 --> 02:36:28,240
Speaker 1: people out. I could send James or Garrison out underwater

2774
02:36:28,400 --> 02:36:30,840
Speaker 1: with a nuclear weapon and just have them always waiting

2775
02:36:30,879 --> 02:36:33,680
Speaker 1: in the sea to nuke my adversaries if somebody takes

2776
02:36:33,720 --> 02:36:39,280
Speaker 1: me out, much like the British nuclear fleet. See, we we.

2777
02:36:39,640 --> 02:36:41,440
Speaker 5: As a human race are really good at coming up

2778
02:36:41,480 --> 02:36:45,520
Speaker 5: with good ideas. Yeah, we have our ideas. Our das

2779
02:36:45,560 --> 02:36:47,920
Speaker 5: are amazing, they rock. We never have any bad ones.

2780
02:36:48,400 --> 02:36:50,880
Speaker 1: It is funny that there's just like some guys who

2781
02:36:50,920 --> 02:36:54,040
Speaker 1: are expected to like follow a dead man's orders at

2782
02:36:54,040 --> 02:36:57,400
Speaker 1: the end of the world, uh, for for unclear reasons.

2783
02:36:57,440 --> 02:36:59,200
Speaker 1: Like there's just a letter and it's like, if all

2784
02:36:59,200 --> 02:37:01,680
Speaker 1: of your loved ones die, open this letter. And do

2785
02:37:01,720 --> 02:37:06,720
Speaker 1: whatever it says. You are really funny when you think

2786
02:37:06,760 --> 02:37:07,160
Speaker 1: about him.

2787
02:37:07,280 --> 02:37:08,800
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2788
02:37:08,959 --> 02:37:11,320
Speaker 5: So, okay, So in the late sixties and early seventy

2789
02:37:11,360 --> 02:37:13,520
Speaker 5: there's people who are like, this is a terrible idea,

2790
02:37:13,520 --> 02:37:16,600
Speaker 5: we should not in fact drop nuclear bombs. And these

2791
02:37:16,640 --> 02:37:19,000
Speaker 5: groups in the late sixties become green Peace in nineteen

2792
02:37:19,760 --> 02:37:20,640
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy two.

2793
02:37:21,160 --> 02:37:23,840
Speaker 3: Okay, great for them, good for them.

2794
02:37:24,040 --> 02:37:27,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, all right, So we've talked about like the French

2795
02:37:27,120 --> 02:37:31,520
Speaker 5: having to move the nuclear program into the Pacific after

2796
02:37:31,560 --> 02:37:37,800
Speaker 5: being read out of Algeria. Green Peace starts doing direct

2797
02:37:37,840 --> 02:37:43,000
Speaker 5: actions against French nuclear testing, and so in nineteen seventy two,

2798
02:37:43,160 --> 02:37:45,640
Speaker 5: Dave mctagger's one of the founders of Greenpeace, sails his

2799
02:37:45,760 --> 02:37:50,840
Speaker 5: boat into a French nuclear testing area. Now, okay, I

2800
02:37:51,720 --> 02:37:54,360
Speaker 5: have my issues sort of in principle with like nonviolence

2801
02:37:54,360 --> 02:37:57,720
Speaker 5: as you're like pure organizing political principle. But if you

2802
02:37:57,760 --> 02:38:00,280
Speaker 5: are willing to sail your boat under a new your

2803
02:38:00,320 --> 02:38:02,240
Speaker 5: bomb to stop it from going off, that is that

2804
02:38:02,320 --> 02:38:03,119
Speaker 5: is pretty based.

2805
02:38:03,640 --> 02:38:05,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, I have trouble. I have trouble like coming

2806
02:38:05,840 --> 02:38:08,120
Speaker 1: up with any any any critiques of that.

2807
02:38:08,320 --> 02:38:10,480
Speaker 5: No, this rips, and like the other thing is like

2808
02:38:10,480 --> 02:38:12,480
Speaker 5: you know this isn't this isn't a stunt, right like

2809
02:38:12,520 --> 02:38:15,000
Speaker 5: they are they are actually prepared to get nuked.

2810
02:38:15,840 --> 02:38:19,320
Speaker 1: Yeah no, that's that seems like a pretty commitment.

2811
02:38:19,440 --> 02:38:23,840
Speaker 5: Yeah that it's it's sick. And so they refuse to

2812
02:38:23,959 --> 02:38:26,760
Speaker 5: leave and the French, the French Navy eventually gets so

2813
02:38:26,920 --> 02:38:30,480
Speaker 5: pissed off that a French Navy ship rams their boat

2814
02:38:30,560 --> 02:38:33,600
Speaker 5: like a fucking try rem in where to get them.

2815
02:38:34,920 --> 02:38:38,680
Speaker 5: So they're they're forced out because they're rammed by a

2816
02:38:38,720 --> 02:38:39,480
Speaker 5: tr ream.

2817
02:38:41,800 --> 02:38:41,959
Speaker 3: Us.

2818
02:38:42,000 --> 02:38:45,040
Speaker 5: We've all been there, so sometimes sometimes.

2819
02:38:44,600 --> 02:38:45,920
Speaker 10: You just get you just get rammed.

2820
02:38:45,959 --> 02:38:48,879
Speaker 4: I don't know, it happens so true.

2821
02:38:50,760 --> 02:38:53,760
Speaker 5: So they they green Peace tries to go to the

2822
02:38:53,760 --> 02:38:56,119
Speaker 5: International Court of Justice to get a ruling to force

2823
02:38:56,200 --> 02:39:00,360
Speaker 5: France to stop the testing, and the French government steaks

2824
02:39:00,400 --> 02:39:03,280
Speaker 5: out what I I I claim is like the primary

2825
02:39:03,680 --> 02:39:06,400
Speaker 5: status political principle, which is that what is justice to

2826
02:39:06,440 --> 02:39:09,440
Speaker 5: a man holding a gun? And they just absolutely ignore

2827
02:39:10,240 --> 02:39:14,160
Speaker 5: the International Court of Justice. So they in ninety seventy four,

2828
02:39:14,160 --> 02:39:16,840
Speaker 5: they're trying to do another set of nuclear tests and

2829
02:39:18,120 --> 02:39:20,440
Speaker 5: this time, you know, so green Piece is like, okay,

2830
02:39:20,440 --> 02:39:22,640
Speaker 5: well we're gonna we're gonna send like a flotilla of

2831
02:39:22,720 --> 02:39:23,720
Speaker 5: boats out this time.

2832
02:39:24,440 --> 02:39:25,840
Speaker 4: Did you just say a flotilla?

2833
02:39:26,240 --> 02:39:28,000
Speaker 3: Yeah? Is that a word?

2834
02:39:28,320 --> 02:39:28,560
Speaker 10: Yeah?

2835
02:39:28,600 --> 02:39:30,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's a group of boats.

2836
02:39:30,520 --> 02:39:34,000
Speaker 4: Scarce, that's like a that's like a murder of crows thing.

2837
02:39:34,560 --> 02:39:37,560
Speaker 5: No, yeah, yeah, but it's a very common name for

2838
02:39:37,640 --> 02:39:38,400
Speaker 5: a bunch of boats.

2839
02:39:38,720 --> 02:39:40,119
Speaker 4: I've never I've never heard that before.

2840
02:39:40,520 --> 02:39:42,600
Speaker 3: Now you have flotilla. Yeah.

2841
02:39:42,760 --> 02:39:45,920
Speaker 1: L Ron Hubbard had a flotilla of boats that he

2842
02:39:46,120 --> 02:39:49,760
Speaker 1: made teenagers pilot and jump off of when he was

2843
02:39:49,800 --> 02:39:50,560
Speaker 1: angry at them.

2844
02:39:50,600 --> 02:39:51,840
Speaker 4: You know, I was thinking about this.

2845
02:39:51,879 --> 02:39:54,080
Speaker 5: I think this is actually the first flotilla of boats

2846
02:39:54,080 --> 02:39:55,640
Speaker 5: that we've had on any of our shows.

2847
02:39:55,360 --> 02:39:55,920
Speaker 10: That is good.

2848
02:39:56,840 --> 02:39:59,680
Speaker 1: That's not that's not commanded by l Ron Hubbard.

2849
02:40:00,080 --> 02:40:03,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, or like the Moodies, it's it's a whole it's

2850
02:40:03,280 --> 02:40:05,000
Speaker 4: a whole sort of line of bad. But this is this is

2851
02:40:05,080 --> 02:40:05,840
Speaker 4: a good flotilla.

2852
02:40:06,400 --> 02:40:08,080
Speaker 5: But the Navy this time is like, Okay, we're not

2853
02:40:08,120 --> 02:40:11,160
Speaker 5: going to mess around with these people, like and you know,

2854
02:40:11,240 --> 02:40:13,800
Speaker 5: let them get inside the testing zone. Uh. They so

2855
02:40:13,840 --> 02:40:16,080
Speaker 5: they just bored mctabart ship and just beat the shit

2856
02:40:16,120 --> 02:40:20,039
Speaker 5: out of him and his crew. And so the the

2857
02:40:19,920 --> 02:40:22,360
Speaker 5: the French Navy claims that like, oh, the green Peace

2858
02:40:22,440 --> 02:40:25,720
Speaker 5: people just like turned around on their own and uh, McTaggert,

2859
02:40:26,160 --> 02:40:29,400
Speaker 5: you know, my tiger's like very badly visibly hurt. So

2860
02:40:29,480 --> 02:40:31,600
Speaker 5: he like shows up to the press and the French

2861
02:40:31,680 --> 02:40:34,320
Speaker 5: Navy goes, oh, I mean he's like mctigerant is like

2862
02:40:34,400 --> 02:40:36,760
Speaker 5: he is he he is like blind in one eye

2863
02:40:36,760 --> 02:40:39,199
Speaker 5: for several months, like he is very very badly beaten.

2864
02:40:39,879 --> 02:40:42,360
Speaker 5: And the French Navy claims that was actually the result

2865
02:40:42,360 --> 02:40:45,320
Speaker 5: of a fall, which I I I will allow you

2866
02:40:45,360 --> 02:40:50,000
Speaker 5: to draw your own conclusions are yeah, I'll I'll let

2867
02:40:50,000 --> 02:40:51,960
Speaker 5: you draw your own conclusions. But parallels between the state

2868
02:40:52,000 --> 02:40:56,400
Speaker 5: and domestic abusers. But yeah, Unfortunately for the French Navy,

2869
02:40:56,440 --> 02:40:58,720
Speaker 5: the Green Peace crew have managed to like get the

2870
02:40:58,760 --> 02:41:01,480
Speaker 5: beatings on camera, and they're able to smuggle like the

2871
02:41:01,480 --> 02:41:04,560
Speaker 5: film canister off the boat and get it to the newspapers,

2872
02:41:04,560 --> 02:41:06,959
Speaker 5: and so the newspapers the next day just have a

2873
02:41:07,000 --> 02:41:09,600
Speaker 5: bunch of like pictures showing the French Navy just beating

2874
02:41:09,680 --> 02:41:12,000
Speaker 5: the shit out of these like random Green Piece people,

2875
02:41:14,480 --> 02:41:16,800
Speaker 5: and this eventually actually works.

2876
02:41:16,920 --> 02:41:17,080
Speaker 8: Right.

2877
02:41:17,520 --> 02:41:19,039
Speaker 5: There's there's there's sort of there's I mean, there's there's

2878
02:41:19,040 --> 02:41:22,039
Speaker 5: a sort of political pressure campaign that Green Pieces waging.

2879
02:41:22,040 --> 02:41:24,040
Speaker 5: There are these there are these campaigns in the French

2880
02:41:24,120 --> 02:41:25,960
Speaker 5: courts to get the government to stop, and eventually, in

2881
02:41:26,040 --> 02:41:29,480
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy four, the French government agrees to stop conducting

2882
02:41:29,520 --> 02:41:33,800
Speaker 5: atmospheric tests and nuclear weapons. Now, Robert, do you know

2883
02:41:33,800 --> 02:41:38,200
Speaker 5: who else stopped conducting atmospheric testing after years of public

2884
02:41:38,200 --> 02:41:43,520
Speaker 5: pressure campaigns? The US and the USSR. Yes, but also

2885
02:41:44,080 --> 02:41:45,760
Speaker 5: the products and services that's.

2886
02:41:45,600 --> 02:41:48,640
Speaker 1: Oh, that supports this podcast. Yeah, No, I mean most

2887
02:41:48,680 --> 02:41:53,720
Speaker 1: most of them. Most of them. Ah, we're back, and

2888
02:41:53,920 --> 02:41:57,440
Speaker 1: you know that I'm hearing now that we we did

2889
02:41:57,640 --> 02:42:00,920
Speaker 1: have an ad from Blue Apron in there, who does

2890
02:42:01,080 --> 02:42:06,200
Speaker 1: continue like low earth orbit atmospheric nuclear weapons testing. But

2891
02:42:06,840 --> 02:42:09,880
Speaker 1: you know, it's the only way to get your food

2892
02:42:09,920 --> 02:42:13,320
Speaker 1: boxes to you in a timely manner. They have to

2893
02:42:13,440 --> 02:42:18,920
Speaker 1: use the Orion drive, which is a special spacecraft engine

2894
02:42:19,040 --> 02:42:21,960
Speaker 1: that relies on popping nuclear weapons out of the back

2895
02:42:22,000 --> 02:42:25,200
Speaker 1: of a spaceship and using them to accelerate it to

2896
02:42:25,320 --> 02:42:29,120
Speaker 1: near light speed. It's actually that's a you can look

2897
02:42:29,120 --> 02:42:30,800
Speaker 1: that up. It's a pretty cool idea. I think we

2898
02:42:30,800 --> 02:42:31,720
Speaker 1: should do it.

2899
02:42:31,200 --> 02:42:33,959
Speaker 5: It is very funny to me that it's like, Okay,

2900
02:42:34,320 --> 02:42:36,960
Speaker 5: we have this incredibly convoluted drive that's powered by nuclear

2901
02:42:36,959 --> 02:42:40,560
Speaker 5: weapons and it gets you to around the speed of light.

2902
02:42:40,680 --> 02:42:44,039
Speaker 1: Maybe it's it's not even convoluted. It's literally just the

2903
02:42:44,080 --> 02:42:47,160
Speaker 1: spaceship poops out a nuke and it makes it go faster.

2904
02:42:50,480 --> 02:42:52,880
Speaker 1: It's a fun idea. I'm gonna be honest with you.

2905
02:42:53,000 --> 02:42:54,680
Speaker 1: I think it's a fun idea, is.

2906
02:42:54,640 --> 02:42:57,879
Speaker 5: But like it can't even get you to like the

2907
02:42:57,959 --> 02:42:59,720
Speaker 5: next solar system very fast.

2908
02:43:00,160 --> 02:43:03,039
Speaker 1: Well, nothing probably ever can, which is why we're all

2909
02:43:03,080 --> 02:43:04,600
Speaker 1: doomed to die alone in the dark.

2910
02:43:05,080 --> 02:43:08,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, very sad. Other thing that's sad. Okay, So the

2911
02:43:08,840 --> 02:43:13,119
Speaker 5: French government agrees to stop doing tests in the atmosphere, right, however,

2912
02:43:13,320 --> 02:43:14,680
Speaker 5: this is just atmospheric tests.

2913
02:43:14,720 --> 02:43:18,040
Speaker 4: I never agreed to stop doing like non atmospheric tests.

2914
02:43:19,200 --> 02:43:21,720
Speaker 5: So in nineteen eighty five, the French government is gearing

2915
02:43:21,800 --> 02:43:23,800
Speaker 5: up to do another round of nuclear testing and green

2916
02:43:23,800 --> 02:43:26,120
Speaker 5: Peace is once again bringing a flotilla to try to

2917
02:43:26,160 --> 02:43:30,320
Speaker 5: stop them. Now green Peace are already in nineteen eighty five,

2918
02:43:30,360 --> 02:43:34,400
Speaker 5: they've been involved in another anti nuclear well okay, really

2919
02:43:34,560 --> 02:43:39,200
Speaker 5: is it's all the same anti nuclear campaign. But so

2920
02:43:39,360 --> 02:43:41,840
Speaker 5: the other people who are dropping nukes in the Pacific

2921
02:43:41,959 --> 02:43:46,280
Speaker 5: are the US, and when they nuke the Marshall Islands,

2922
02:43:46,320 --> 02:43:50,560
Speaker 5: the people of this island called Runga Lap began suffering

2923
02:43:50,560 --> 02:43:53,440
Speaker 5: from radiation exposure, even though they were also once again

2924
02:43:53,480 --> 02:43:56,560
Speaker 5: told by the American government that they were fine, and

2925
02:43:57,040 --> 02:43:59,119
Speaker 5: so that the US is going to drop another nuke

2926
02:44:00,160 --> 02:44:05,760
Speaker 5: and they refuse to evacuate these people, and so green

2927
02:44:05,800 --> 02:44:09,520
Speaker 5: Peace like brings their boats, like brings the Rainbow Warrior,

2928
02:44:09,640 --> 02:44:12,119
Speaker 5: and so these people ask like green Peace for help.

2929
02:44:12,120 --> 02:44:14,879
Speaker 5: But so green Peace like evacuates them all to another

2930
02:44:14,920 --> 02:44:17,960
Speaker 5: island and like brings like construction materials and supply so

2931
02:44:18,000 --> 02:44:20,680
Speaker 5: they can like set up on a new island. And

2932
02:44:20,760 --> 02:44:24,840
Speaker 5: it's this really I don't know, it's it's a really

2933
02:44:24,879 --> 02:44:30,039
Speaker 5: sort of grim look into what, you know, like what

2934
02:44:30,080 --> 02:44:31,560
Speaker 5: this new Coro testing actually means, which is that a

2935
02:44:31,560 --> 02:44:32,959
Speaker 5: bunch of people who've been living in a place for

2936
02:44:33,040 --> 02:44:36,840
Speaker 5: hundreds of years are forced to flee for their lives,

2937
02:44:36,840 --> 02:44:39,440
Speaker 5: like you know, the state won't the state won't even

2938
02:44:39,520 --> 02:44:42,080
Speaker 5: like ethnically cleanse them right like they they are they

2939
02:44:42,120 --> 02:44:45,160
Speaker 5: are forcibly relocated from their homes, but the state won't

2940
02:44:45,160 --> 02:44:46,760
Speaker 5: even do it because the state's like, no, it's fine,

2941
02:44:46,760 --> 02:44:49,280
Speaker 5: where's You're just gonna die radiation poisoning, And so they

2942
02:44:49,320 --> 02:44:53,520
Speaker 5: have to get someone else to like move them and

2943
02:44:53,560 --> 02:44:55,480
Speaker 5: it's I don't know, it's it's really bleak.

2944
02:44:55,840 --> 02:44:56,000
Speaker 15: Uh.

2945
02:44:57,080 --> 02:45:01,320
Speaker 5: These people survive, which is good, but the US doing

2946
02:45:01,520 --> 02:45:05,520
Speaker 5: necrotesting in the Marshall Islands, which I'm betting at least

2947
02:45:05,560 --> 02:45:07,640
Speaker 5: forty percent of you don't know of the US control.

2948
02:45:10,560 --> 02:45:12,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, it sucks.

2949
02:45:14,000 --> 02:45:17,880
Speaker 5: So okay, So they get done with this evacuation, they're

2950
02:45:17,920 --> 02:45:21,480
Speaker 5: back in Auckland and then their flagship, they're Able Warrior,

2951
02:45:21,520 --> 02:45:25,199
Speaker 5: gets bombed and Greenpeace talks later about how they actually

2952
02:45:25,200 --> 02:45:27,880
Speaker 5: got really lucky because you know, I remember when I

2953
02:45:27,879 --> 02:45:29,560
Speaker 5: said earlier there are people who were still awake like

2954
02:45:29,600 --> 02:45:32,880
Speaker 5: playing cards. If those people had been in their cabins,

2955
02:45:32,959 --> 02:45:34,960
Speaker 5: a bunch of them basically would have drowned immediately because

2956
02:45:35,040 --> 02:45:38,240
Speaker 5: the cabins got flooded instantly by the first bomb. So

2957
02:45:38,360 --> 02:45:43,880
Speaker 5: they got very lucky. Only one person died. I to

2958
02:45:43,920 --> 02:45:46,640
Speaker 5: this day, I do not understand why the people who

2959
02:45:46,640 --> 02:45:48,560
Speaker 5: did this thought they could do this without killing anyone.

2960
02:45:49,480 --> 02:45:52,200
Speaker 4: It's baffling to me. I don't know.

2961
02:45:52,320 --> 02:45:55,600
Speaker 5: I at least they claimed they weren't trying to kill anyone.

2962
02:45:56,320 --> 02:45:59,680
Speaker 5: So New Zealand police start investigating. You know, hey, there's

2963
02:45:59,720 --> 02:46:02,360
Speaker 5: been a a like a terrorist attack on a boat

2964
02:46:02,400 --> 02:46:02,959
Speaker 5: in our harbor.

2965
02:46:03,400 --> 02:46:05,800
Speaker 1: Sure, and that seems like a thing you'd look into.

2966
02:46:05,959 --> 02:46:07,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, I get that.

2967
02:46:07,560 --> 02:46:10,480
Speaker 5: They get very, very lucky. And they get lucky because

2968
02:46:10,480 --> 02:46:12,280
Speaker 5: there are two people in this boating club who are

2969
02:46:12,320 --> 02:46:14,400
Speaker 5: like watching the harbor trying to see if it's like

2970
02:46:14,400 --> 02:46:17,640
Speaker 5: trying to catch someone who's been stealing diving equipment. And

2971
02:46:17,800 --> 02:46:19,760
Speaker 5: in the middle of the night they see a man

2972
02:46:19,840 --> 02:46:24,600
Speaker 5: in a black wetsuit carrying a Zodiac inflatable speedboat ashore

2973
02:46:24,640 --> 02:46:27,720
Speaker 5: and get into a van. Now, okay, so it's in

2974
02:46:27,800 --> 02:46:30,240
Speaker 5: goodna be wish bottle of Zodiac. This is for people

2975
02:46:30,280 --> 02:46:33,360
Speaker 5: not familiar with boats. Zodiac makes something called the mill Pro,

2976
02:46:33,480 --> 02:46:35,959
Speaker 5: which is a a like it's an inflatable speedboat that

2977
02:46:36,040 --> 02:46:38,960
Speaker 5: is used by like most of the world's special forces units.

2978
02:46:40,200 --> 02:46:41,279
Speaker 4: And so these two.

2979
02:46:41,200 --> 02:46:45,360
Speaker 5: Guys are like, this is really sketchy. They and and

2980
02:46:45,440 --> 02:46:48,080
Speaker 5: so they they're you know, they put two and two

2981
02:46:48,080 --> 02:46:50,360
Speaker 5: together when they realize that a boat's been blown up

2982
02:46:50,680 --> 02:46:52,600
Speaker 5: and they're like, oh my god, it was probably these guys.

2983
02:46:52,640 --> 02:46:55,800
Speaker 5: So they go to the police and they're able to

2984
02:46:55,800 --> 02:46:58,000
Speaker 5: get the license plate of the van, and so the

2985
02:46:58,080 --> 02:47:01,640
Speaker 5: staff at this like van depot have to like sit

2986
02:47:01,720 --> 02:47:04,119
Speaker 5: there and like stall the two people in the van

2987
02:47:04,200 --> 02:47:06,080
Speaker 5: and keep them from leaving long enough for the cops

2988
02:47:06,080 --> 02:47:08,520
Speaker 5: to show up, which something I really really desperately want

2989
02:47:08,520 --> 02:47:11,960
Speaker 5: a video of. That just sounds really funny.

2990
02:47:12,600 --> 02:47:15,240
Speaker 1: I do love the idea of like the average people

2991
02:47:15,280 --> 02:47:19,440
Speaker 1: who work at like a car rental company being asked like, hey,

2992
02:47:19,440 --> 02:47:22,000
Speaker 1: could you do like a little bit of counter terrorism

2993
02:47:22,120 --> 02:47:25,400
Speaker 1: for us today? Just like a SCOSHIVI it in between

2994
02:47:25,440 --> 02:47:28,360
Speaker 1: denying people rentals because they don't have a credit card.

2995
02:47:29,600 --> 02:47:32,800
Speaker 5: Amazing and Okay. So then the cops show up and

2996
02:47:32,840 --> 02:47:35,080
Speaker 5: they arrest these this couple who are claiming to be

2997
02:47:35,120 --> 02:47:39,200
Speaker 5: newly weds, but the New Zealand government quickly discovers that

2998
02:47:39,400 --> 02:47:45,800
Speaker 5: both these people have forged passports from Sweden, and so

2999
02:47:46,240 --> 02:47:49,880
Speaker 5: they discover their real names. And by god, is that

3000
02:47:50,040 --> 02:47:52,640
Speaker 5: the mercy? Is that is a man with the benguet.

3001
02:47:52,879 --> 02:47:56,520
Speaker 5: It is the French CIA. They have planted this bomb

3002
02:47:57,240 --> 02:47:59,800
Speaker 5: and there's the French CIA.

3003
02:48:00,080 --> 02:48:04,480
Speaker 4: Hold on, because we can't just say the French c

3004
02:48:04,600 --> 02:48:04,840
Speaker 4: i A.

3005
02:48:06,000 --> 02:48:10,400
Speaker 5: It's the Directorate General for External Security or g s E.

3006
02:48:11,840 --> 02:48:15,040
Speaker 5: That's a much worse, much less Definitely.

3007
02:48:14,680 --> 02:48:16,720
Speaker 4: We're gonna we're gonna go back to calling it the French.

3008
02:48:17,080 --> 02:48:20,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna read the Secret Police. I think we

3009
02:48:21,000 --> 02:48:23,840
Speaker 1: can all agree. Secret police need to have three letter

3010
02:48:23,879 --> 02:48:27,280
Speaker 1: acrons C I, A, G, R, U, F B I Like,

3011
02:48:27,360 --> 02:48:30,960
Speaker 1: it just doesn't work with four. You need to have

3012
02:48:31,040 --> 02:48:34,280
Speaker 1: one kind of sinister sounding name, like the macabat, but

3013
02:48:34,440 --> 02:48:37,680
Speaker 1: like the d G S E. Oh my god, I'm

3014
02:48:37,720 --> 02:48:39,320
Speaker 1: sorry that sounds like a bank.

3015
02:48:42,120 --> 02:48:44,480
Speaker 5: It's a direction general.

3016
02:48:48,240 --> 02:48:48,879
Speaker 3: Trash.

3017
02:48:49,720 --> 02:48:53,320
Speaker 1: You have been You have been suppressing people for so long,

3018
02:48:53,440 --> 02:48:55,920
Speaker 1: and you don't have a better secret police name than that.

3019
02:48:55,920 --> 02:48:56,760
Speaker 3: That's shameful.

3020
02:48:57,240 --> 02:48:57,560
Speaker 4: By the way.

3021
02:48:57,680 --> 02:49:02,440
Speaker 1: Their address, that's a wait, fucking name. The name good,

3022
02:49:02,600 --> 02:49:04,960
Speaker 1: incredible or am I five whatever the real one is.

3023
02:49:05,160 --> 02:49:05,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

3024
02:49:05,560 --> 02:49:07,400
Speaker 5: Anyways, if you if you ever want to go, like

3025
02:49:07,440 --> 02:49:09,560
Speaker 5: take a visit to these people, they're at Their headquarters

3026
02:49:09,600 --> 02:49:13,680
Speaker 5: is on one forty one Boulevard Bartier, Paris, France. It's

3027
02:49:13,720 --> 02:49:19,520
Speaker 5: at forty eight dot eighty seven forty four north two

3028
02:49:20,160 --> 02:49:22,520
Speaker 5: four oh six seven YaST latitude. Right.

3029
02:49:23,000 --> 02:49:24,640
Speaker 1: I don't need to go back to France. Yeah, I

3030
02:49:24,680 --> 02:49:30,480
Speaker 1: go fuck with the dgsese. I'm not that big a

3031
02:49:30,560 --> 02:49:33,080
Speaker 1: wine guy. It's fine.

3032
02:49:34,120 --> 02:49:37,360
Speaker 5: So they catch these agents whose names are I shit

3033
02:49:37,440 --> 02:49:41,840
Speaker 5: you not Gene Camas and Jean Luke Castaire.

3034
02:49:41,840 --> 02:49:44,160
Speaker 1: No, yeah, that makes sense.

3035
02:49:45,200 --> 02:49:49,640
Speaker 5: No, so the police catch these two, there's like ten

3036
02:49:49,680 --> 02:49:52,800
Speaker 5: to other well, there's like eight other people involved. Two

3037
02:49:52,840 --> 02:49:54,800
Speaker 5: of them get I think like maybe two one or

3038
02:49:54,800 --> 02:49:58,160
Speaker 5: two of them get caught in Australia, but the Australian

3039
02:49:58,200 --> 02:49:59,920
Speaker 5: police aren't able to hold them long enough for the

3040
02:50:00,040 --> 02:50:02,040
Speaker 5: forensic evidence to come in, so they have to release

3041
02:50:02,080 --> 02:50:04,440
Speaker 5: them and they flee. And there's this whole thing where

3042
02:50:04,480 --> 02:50:06,520
Speaker 5: like they flee at a yacht and then they get

3043
02:50:06,560 --> 02:50:08,879
Speaker 5: on a submarine and the submarine shoots the yacht to

3044
02:50:08,920 --> 02:50:09,280
Speaker 5: sink it.

3045
02:50:09,400 --> 02:50:11,920
Speaker 4: As it's a whole thing.

3046
02:50:11,879 --> 02:50:15,040
Speaker 5: And I actually, okay, it probably is worth mentioning here

3047
02:50:15,080 --> 02:50:20,160
Speaker 5: that as as silly as the French CIA's name sound,

3048
02:50:20,400 --> 02:50:22,760
Speaker 5: name sounds like, they have one of the most extensive

3049
02:50:22,760 --> 02:50:25,800
Speaker 5: networks of surveillance and sabotage of any intelligence agency in

3050
02:50:25,800 --> 02:50:29,520
Speaker 5: the world. It never gets talked about, but they have

3051
02:50:29,560 --> 02:50:30,520
Speaker 5: people everywhere.

3052
02:50:30,760 --> 02:50:33,240
Speaker 4: They are lethal. They absolutely suck.

3053
02:50:36,320 --> 02:50:42,120
Speaker 5: But yeah, so they get caught and the French order

3054
02:50:42,160 --> 02:50:47,280
Speaker 5: an investigation, and their first investigation concludes that like, well,

3055
02:50:47,320 --> 02:50:50,080
Speaker 5: we asked, well, okay, so these people are our spies, right,

3056
02:50:50,400 --> 02:50:52,520
Speaker 5: but we just asked the spy on green Peace. We

3057
02:50:52,560 --> 02:50:56,680
Speaker 5: didn't ask them to do a bombing, and everyone's like, okay, yeah, sure,

3058
02:50:56,760 --> 02:50:57,480
Speaker 5: French government.

3059
02:50:57,640 --> 02:50:59,720
Speaker 3: So the French we have been there.

3060
02:51:00,320 --> 02:51:02,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like, well, no, okay, so you you you

3061
02:51:03,160 --> 02:51:06,280
Speaker 5: may have caught two of our spies dragging a Zodiac

3062
02:51:06,360 --> 02:51:08,520
Speaker 5: boat well with a guy a guya a website, dragged

3063
02:51:08,520 --> 02:51:10,440
Speaker 5: a Zodiac boat into a van, but doesn't mean he

3064
02:51:10,480 --> 02:51:11,120
Speaker 5: did the bombing.

3065
02:51:11,879 --> 02:51:12,879
Speaker 4: And the French.

3066
02:51:12,640 --> 02:51:15,280
Speaker 5: Media does her own investigation and like quickly concludes that

3067
02:51:15,320 --> 02:51:18,360
Speaker 5: like not, not only did the French order the bombing,

3068
02:51:18,440 --> 02:51:20,920
Speaker 5: the bombing was personally signed off on by French Defense

3069
02:51:21,040 --> 02:51:27,520
Speaker 5: Minister Charles Herdu and also quite possibly French President Frenchois Mitterrand.

3070
02:51:29,200 --> 02:51:32,240
Speaker 1: And well, okay, at least Mita Arran's got a good

3071
02:51:32,320 --> 02:51:33,680
Speaker 1: name for an evil president.

3072
02:51:34,000 --> 02:51:35,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, well this is interesting, right because if you know

3073
02:51:35,840 --> 02:51:37,560
Speaker 5: your French history, for tho, those of you who know

3074
02:51:37,560 --> 02:51:40,320
Speaker 5: your French history, you will note that Midran is a

3075
02:51:40,360 --> 02:51:43,720
Speaker 5: man to the French left. He's he's he's the prime minister,

3076
02:51:43,879 --> 02:51:46,840
Speaker 5: he's the president from the Francis Socialist Party. Right, he

3077
02:51:46,879 --> 02:51:50,039
Speaker 5: has like, okay, he has a program of amnesty for

3078
02:51:50,160 --> 02:51:53,280
Speaker 5: Italian communist terrorists. Were like, if you're able to make

3079
02:51:53,320 --> 02:51:55,200
Speaker 5: it to France, they won't extradut you.

3080
02:51:55,760 --> 02:51:56,560
Speaker 1: That's pretty cool.

3081
02:51:56,760 --> 02:51:58,959
Speaker 4: The Communists would never have a nuclear bomb.

3082
02:52:00,520 --> 02:52:03,400
Speaker 5: So it's very famously Ontonio Negri, who's the guy who

3083
02:52:03,400 --> 02:52:05,280
Speaker 5: writes a bunch of books that are very famous in

3084
02:52:05,280 --> 02:52:08,760
Speaker 5: the early two thousands, he's like, he's one of the

3085
02:52:08,760 --> 02:52:12,440
Speaker 5: founders of the Autonomists. He flees to He uses this

3086
02:52:12,560 --> 02:52:14,840
Speaker 5: to flee to France after the Italian government accused him

3087
02:52:14,840 --> 02:52:17,119
Speaker 5: of being the mastermind of the Red Brigades who had

3088
02:52:17,120 --> 02:52:19,360
Speaker 5: just kidnapped and killed for Prime Minister Alden Morrow. So

3089
02:52:19,400 --> 02:52:22,760
Speaker 5: Negrid gets himself parliamentary immunity by getting elected as an

3090
02:52:22,840 --> 02:52:26,120
Speaker 5: MP and then flees to France, which is just very funny.

3091
02:52:26,520 --> 02:52:28,959
Speaker 5: And then Metiran refuses the extra d item. So okay.

3092
02:52:29,000 --> 02:52:30,800
Speaker 5: So on the one that you would think that Midrand

3093
02:52:30,879 --> 02:52:33,560
Speaker 5: is like, I don't know, kind of cool.

3094
02:52:33,840 --> 02:52:40,600
Speaker 4: I don't. I don't think so I don't. Yeah, so Midiirrand. Okay.

3095
02:52:40,640 --> 02:52:43,360
Speaker 5: So in terms of sort of being sympathetic, Midran is

3096
02:52:43,400 --> 02:52:46,560
Speaker 5: like a is a kind of different kind of neoliberal

3097
02:52:47,520 --> 02:52:49,440
Speaker 5: than the kind that we that we sort of know.

3098
02:52:49,480 --> 02:52:52,359
Speaker 5: So I would classify in terms of sort of neoliberal

3099
02:52:52,480 --> 02:52:55,400
Speaker 5: like neoliberal politicians, right, like neoliberal heads of countures. I

3100
02:52:55,400 --> 02:52:57,960
Speaker 5: think there's sort of like three kinds of them. There

3101
02:52:58,000 --> 02:53:00,760
Speaker 5: are sort of the right wing hardliners who people like Thatcher,

3102
02:53:00,879 --> 02:53:05,000
Speaker 5: like Pinochet and Reagan, the Reagan's Weirdly, Reagan is slightly

3103
02:53:05,080 --> 02:53:08,160
Speaker 5: less hardline than like Thatcher is, but yeah, so okay,

3104
02:53:08,200 --> 02:53:10,640
Speaker 5: So there's those people. There's the sort of like third

3105
02:53:10,680 --> 02:53:13,560
Speaker 5: way neoliberals like Clinton and Tony Blair, who are like

3106
02:53:14,480 --> 02:53:16,560
Speaker 5: I guess like liberals in the American sense, but are

3107
02:53:16,560 --> 02:53:21,000
Speaker 5: still sort of like real hardliners on economics. And then

3108
02:53:21,040 --> 02:53:22,840
Speaker 5: there's a group of people I would call like the

3109
02:53:22,959 --> 02:53:27,840
Speaker 5: quote unquote socialist neoliberals like Midterrans and Italy's longtime Socialist

3110
02:53:27,840 --> 02:53:33,400
Speaker 5: Party prime minister Bettino Croxy, Like I don't know if

3111
02:53:33,400 --> 02:53:35,160
Speaker 5: I can actually call him the most corrupt man in

3112
02:53:35,200 --> 02:53:37,160
Speaker 5: Italian politics, but like he's like at least in the

3113
02:53:37,200 --> 02:53:41,760
Speaker 5: top five, but he's prime minister for like twenty years, and.

3114
02:53:41,720 --> 02:53:42,640
Speaker 4: He's also like this.

3115
02:53:42,680 --> 02:53:45,160
Speaker 5: So these are these are people who are nominally socialists

3116
02:53:45,160 --> 02:53:48,120
Speaker 5: and we'll talk about like doing socialism, but then are

3117
02:53:48,160 --> 02:53:50,160
Speaker 5: also like implementing neoliberalism.

3118
02:53:50,520 --> 02:53:52,680
Speaker 4: And you know, I think.

3119
02:53:52,560 --> 02:53:54,360
Speaker 5: The closest thing to this in the US is like

3120
02:53:54,600 --> 02:53:58,240
Speaker 5: if Carter had beaten Reagan, we still would have gotten neoliberalism,

3121
02:53:58,280 --> 02:53:59,760
Speaker 5: but it would have been sort of like softer than

3122
02:53:59,760 --> 02:54:05,200
Speaker 5: it was under Reagan. So you know, you have your

3123
02:54:05,240 --> 02:54:07,640
Speaker 5: sort of kinder, gentular form of neoliberalism. And do you

3124
02:54:07,720 --> 02:54:11,280
Speaker 5: know who else advocates for a kinder ingentular form of neoliberalism?

3125
02:54:11,840 --> 02:54:15,920
Speaker 1: Oh not Blue Apron. No, they support going going right

3126
02:54:15,959 --> 02:54:19,240
Speaker 1: back to the old days. We're talking like East India

3127
02:54:19,320 --> 02:54:23,720
Speaker 1: Trading Company. In fact, as we speak, Blue Aprons flotilla

3128
02:54:23,920 --> 02:54:27,240
Speaker 1: is on the coast of India right now, ready ready

3129
02:54:27,240 --> 02:54:30,240
Speaker 1: to try their hand at making another raj in Calcutta.

3130
02:54:31,160 --> 02:54:34,520
Speaker 5: I wish you could all see Garrison's face. It's amazing, It's.

3131
02:54:34,360 --> 02:54:35,400
Speaker 4: Fine, it's fine.

3132
02:54:37,040 --> 02:54:38,000
Speaker 5: Ah, we're back.

3133
02:54:38,680 --> 02:54:39,240
Speaker 3: So all right.

3134
02:54:39,280 --> 02:54:41,920
Speaker 5: The consequence of this is that, you know, despite the

3135
02:54:41,920 --> 02:54:44,320
Speaker 5: fact that Midarin is like nominally a socialist, he is

3136
02:54:44,440 --> 02:54:47,520
Speaker 5: completely committed to nuclear testing as part of his nuclear

3137
02:54:47,520 --> 02:54:48,440
Speaker 5: deterrence program.

3138
02:54:49,879 --> 02:54:54,160
Speaker 4: Money funny, How that funny? How that always happens? Huh yeah, yeah,

3139
02:54:54,200 --> 02:54:54,400
Speaker 4: you know.

3140
02:54:57,520 --> 02:55:00,920
Speaker 5: Now, supporting colonialism is not out of care Fromiteran, who,

3141
02:55:00,959 --> 02:55:03,360
Speaker 5: as part of a previous coalition government in the fifties,

3142
02:55:03,840 --> 02:55:08,440
Speaker 5: had presided over the guillotining of Algerian rebels, but his

3143
02:55:08,600 --> 02:55:12,200
Speaker 5: reaction to his government and possibly also him personally bombing

3144
02:55:12,200 --> 02:55:15,600
Speaker 5: the Rainbow Warrior is not good.

3145
02:55:16,120 --> 02:55:19,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's nice to hear, at least not a

3146
02:55:19,959 --> 02:55:20,800
Speaker 4: great look, buddy.

3147
02:55:21,320 --> 02:55:24,240
Speaker 5: Yeah so so, because French people are extremely normal, the

3148
02:55:24,280 --> 02:55:27,440
Speaker 5: reaction in the French public about their government carrying out

3149
02:55:27,440 --> 02:55:31,240
Speaker 5: a terrorist attack is that there's a giant nationalist upswell,

3150
02:55:31,280 --> 02:55:36,360
Speaker 5: and people get really angry because they're demanding that the

3151
02:55:36,400 --> 02:55:39,800
Speaker 5: two French intelligence agents who again are serving ten year

3152
02:55:39,959 --> 02:55:43,760
Speaker 5: manslaughter sentences in New Zealand for bombing a ship involved

3153
02:55:43,800 --> 02:55:46,840
Speaker 5: in non violent civil disobedience in the harbor of a

3154
02:55:46,879 --> 02:55:50,039
Speaker 5: country that France is not at war with. People are

3155
02:55:50,120 --> 02:55:53,800
Speaker 5: mad that they are like being held in prison and

3156
02:55:53,840 --> 02:55:55,400
Speaker 5: they're demanding they be released.

3157
02:55:56,120 --> 02:56:00,520
Speaker 4: That makes sense from like the.

3158
02:55:59,320 --> 02:56:03,879
Speaker 1: French national sides. It's the French fire right. They're pretty pretty.

3159
02:56:03,600 --> 02:56:06,880
Speaker 5: Amazing, right like like again, like they lots like lots

3160
02:56:06,920 --> 02:56:08,960
Speaker 5: of just like non far right people in France get

3161
02:56:08,959 --> 02:56:11,840
Speaker 5: involved in this, and they had this whole thing about

3162
02:56:12,080 --> 02:56:14,160
Speaker 5: the way they talk about it is amazing that they

3163
02:56:14,240 --> 02:56:17,200
Speaker 5: talk about it in terms of liberating them. It's like

3164
02:56:17,480 --> 02:56:21,160
Speaker 5: they just murdered a guy with a bob like multiple

3165
02:56:21,160 --> 02:56:23,199
Speaker 5: but they use two mines.

3166
02:56:22,800 --> 02:56:23,840
Speaker 4: To blow this ship up.

3167
02:56:24,200 --> 02:56:28,960
Speaker 5: It's like and and so the Minigan's government's response is

3168
02:56:29,280 --> 02:56:32,039
Speaker 5: they start putting sanctions on New Zealand's exports.

3169
02:56:33,160 --> 02:56:34,680
Speaker 4: That's funny, that's funny.

3170
02:56:34,760 --> 02:56:36,720
Speaker 5: And this is this is a huge deal for New

3171
02:56:36,760 --> 02:56:40,160
Speaker 5: Zealand because they're they have a you know, New Zealand's

3172
02:56:40,160 --> 02:56:42,680
Speaker 5: economy is like in large part agricultural based export economy,

3173
02:56:42,680 --> 02:56:45,760
Speaker 5: and they export just an enormous amount of cheese to France.

3174
02:56:47,600 --> 02:56:48,400
Speaker 4: I did not know that.

3175
02:56:48,720 --> 02:56:51,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, so I New Zealand is like one of

3176
02:56:51,080 --> 02:56:52,519
Speaker 5: the words leading dairy producers.

3177
02:56:52,800 --> 02:56:53,599
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3178
02:56:53,840 --> 02:56:56,680
Speaker 4: I thought they mostly just made those like elfin Dwarf

3179
02:56:56,800 --> 02:56:58,119
Speaker 4: and Wizard movies, but.

3180
02:56:58,160 --> 02:57:00,200
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean they do make a lot of

3181
02:57:00,240 --> 02:57:04,160
Speaker 1: money producing limbus cakes, which which can keep you going

3182
02:57:04,200 --> 02:57:05,199
Speaker 1: for an entire week.

3183
02:57:05,240 --> 02:57:08,120
Speaker 5: You know, I'm realizing, I'm realizing now I'm not gared.

3184
02:57:08,200 --> 02:57:10,680
Speaker 5: Do you know a story of how of how New

3185
02:57:10,760 --> 02:57:13,920
Speaker 5: Zealand was was like dragged into supporting the Iraq war

3186
02:57:14,000 --> 02:57:17,080
Speaker 5: and sending troops to a rock No, okay, okay, I

3187
02:57:17,080 --> 02:57:18,520
Speaker 5: need to tell the story. So I'm realizing there's some

3188
02:57:18,560 --> 02:57:19,920
Speaker 5: of our listeners who might not have heard this. The

3189
02:57:19,959 --> 02:57:22,760
Speaker 5: last time I told the story. Okay, So in the

3190
02:57:22,760 --> 02:57:26,440
Speaker 5: Wiki leaks papers, it comes out that New Zealand, New

3191
02:57:26,520 --> 02:57:29,640
Speaker 5: Zealand sent troops to a rock because so New Zealand

3192
02:57:29,680 --> 02:57:33,320
Speaker 5: had had a milk for oil program where they would

3193
02:57:33,320 --> 02:57:35,960
Speaker 5: trade milk to a rock for oil. And the US

3194
02:57:36,120 --> 02:57:38,440
Speaker 5: threatened that after the after they invaded a Rock, they

3195
02:57:38,480 --> 02:57:40,320
Speaker 5: were going to cut off the milk for oil deal.

3196
02:57:41,440 --> 02:57:44,640
Speaker 5: And this was this was like Fonterra. They're like the

3197
02:57:44,760 --> 02:57:49,960
Speaker 5: giant like milk Cooperative in in New Zealand was so powerful.

3198
02:57:50,080 --> 02:57:53,760
Speaker 5: And the New Zealand government was like, fine, don't don't

3199
02:57:53,760 --> 02:57:57,360
Speaker 5: cut off our dairy, our milk for oil program. We

3200
02:57:57,400 --> 02:58:00,600
Speaker 5: will go to war. So yet New zeal Zealand. New

3201
02:58:00,680 --> 02:58:02,120
Speaker 5: Zealand did not go to war from oil. And New

3202
02:58:02,200 --> 02:58:03,879
Speaker 5: Zealand went to war for the milk market.

3203
02:58:04,080 --> 02:58:07,000
Speaker 1: And and that's why we called it a coalition of

3204
02:58:07,040 --> 02:58:08,040
Speaker 1: the willing yep.

3205
02:58:12,120 --> 02:58:14,440
Speaker 4: New Zealand is a truly a cursive place.

3206
02:58:14,480 --> 02:58:17,600
Speaker 1: And and you know, and the it is I don't think

3207
02:58:17,640 --> 02:58:20,720
Speaker 1: New Zealand's the cursed one, and that it's true.

3208
02:58:20,440 --> 02:58:22,760
Speaker 5: But they also like this is the this is the

3209
02:58:22,800 --> 02:58:25,680
Speaker 5: second time. But New Zealand is going to capitulate to

3210
02:58:26,080 --> 02:58:28,680
Speaker 5: like through the demands of a violating perialists in order

3211
02:58:28,680 --> 02:58:29,920
Speaker 5: to save their cheese market.

3212
02:58:30,520 --> 02:58:33,680
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's like a fair criticism of New Zealand.

3213
02:58:33,720 --> 02:58:37,120
Speaker 1: But as an American, I do feel like I don't

3214
02:58:37,160 --> 02:58:39,680
Speaker 1: really have much room to like talk shit on this

3215
02:58:39,760 --> 02:58:40,720
Speaker 1: particular ship.

3216
02:58:41,560 --> 02:58:44,680
Speaker 4: It is, it is our fault, this is happening.

3217
02:58:45,120 --> 02:58:47,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just I'm not gonna blame New Zealand for this.

3218
02:58:47,920 --> 02:58:49,200
Speaker 5: Okay, that's fair, that's fair.

3219
02:58:49,200 --> 02:58:51,840
Speaker 4: I will kind of blame them for this one. This

3220
02:58:51,879 --> 02:58:53,520
Speaker 4: is also France's fault.

3221
02:58:53,840 --> 02:58:56,320
Speaker 5: So what what they're able to do is they're able

3222
02:58:56,520 --> 02:58:59,039
Speaker 5: to well, okay, partially also so like eight of the

3223
02:58:59,120 --> 02:59:02,600
Speaker 5: other people who are involved in this bobbing like are

3224
02:59:02,680 --> 02:59:05,520
Speaker 5: just got out free, and so New Zealand is like, hey,

3225
02:59:05,560 --> 02:59:07,120
Speaker 5: will you guys like send us these people so we

3226
02:59:07,120 --> 02:59:08,959
Speaker 5: can try them in fact, is like no, absolutely not.

3227
02:59:09,280 --> 02:59:12,160
Speaker 5: In fact, we will impost sanctions on you. And what

3228
02:59:12,160 --> 02:59:14,160
Speaker 5: they're able to do is they're able to force New

3229
02:59:14,280 --> 02:59:17,680
Speaker 5: Zealand to like enter un arbitration, even though again they've

3230
02:59:17,680 --> 02:59:20,720
Speaker 5: already arrested and convicted these two guys right because they

3231
02:59:20,720 --> 02:59:24,440
Speaker 5: obviously did it, and the un and typical un fashion

3232
02:59:24,520 --> 02:59:27,840
Speaker 5: goes okay, so France is powerful and New Zealand isn't,

3233
02:59:27,879 --> 02:59:30,240
Speaker 5: so fuck them, and they negotiate a deal where like

3234
02:59:30,280 --> 02:59:32,720
Speaker 5: these two French officers are going to be like released

3235
02:59:32,720 --> 02:59:35,760
Speaker 5: and stationed in this like tiny island at the French

3236
02:59:35,760 --> 02:59:39,959
Speaker 5: control for three years. And so the French doesn't. They

3237
02:59:40,000 --> 02:59:43,160
Speaker 5: don't even do that. They pull these guys out in

3238
02:59:43,240 --> 02:59:51,960
Speaker 5: less than two years. So New Zealand isn't. It doesn't

3239
02:59:51,959 --> 02:59:52,280
Speaker 5: go great.

3240
02:59:52,320 --> 02:59:53,080
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know.

3241
02:59:53,200 --> 02:59:56,080
Speaker 5: I say it doesn't go great for them in the

3242
02:59:56,080 --> 02:59:59,080
Speaker 5: short term. They suffer a series of catastrophic defeats. In

3243
02:59:59,120 --> 03:00:01,800
Speaker 5: the midterm. French eventually get ordered to pay eight point

3244
03:00:01,800 --> 03:00:04,840
Speaker 5: one million dollars to Greenpeace, who use the money to

3245
03:00:04,840 --> 03:00:08,920
Speaker 5: make another boat called the Rable Warrior two and continue

3246
03:00:09,000 --> 03:00:13,840
Speaker 5: to like sale fleets to stop French nuclear testing. And

3247
03:00:14,000 --> 03:00:16,720
Speaker 5: I'm gonna I'm gonna reads with green Peace's website quote.

3248
03:00:16,760 --> 03:00:19,480
Speaker 5: In nineteen ninety five, the Rainbow Warrior two was bordered

3249
03:00:19,520 --> 03:00:23,240
Speaker 5: by French commandos as it led further protests against nuclear

3250
03:00:23,240 --> 03:00:26,320
Speaker 5: testing a Moorea toll. When green Peace activists were asked

3251
03:00:26,360 --> 03:00:30,160
Speaker 5: for their names, they only gave one, Fernando Perieira, which is.

3252
03:00:30,080 --> 03:00:32,000
Speaker 4: The name of the guy who the French had.

3253
03:00:31,959 --> 03:00:36,520
Speaker 5: Killed earlier, so they have their I'm Spartacus moments, and

3254
03:00:36,959 --> 03:00:40,520
Speaker 5: you know, eventually it takes a very very long time,

3255
03:00:41,720 --> 03:00:45,840
Speaker 5: but they win. In nineteen ninety six, France and China

3256
03:00:45,959 --> 03:00:48,400
Speaker 5: do like one last nuclear test and then signed the

3257
03:00:48,440 --> 03:00:52,760
Speaker 5: Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban treaty. Indian and Pakistan do a

3258
03:00:52,760 --> 03:00:55,800
Speaker 5: pair test each in nineteen eighty nine. But since then

3259
03:00:56,000 --> 03:00:58,840
Speaker 5: no country has tested a nuclear weapon except North Korea,

3260
03:00:58,959 --> 03:01:01,840
Speaker 5: who does it all the time. But you know, I

3261
03:01:03,040 --> 03:01:05,680
Speaker 5: don't know what green Peace is supposed to do testing

3262
03:01:05,760 --> 03:01:06,720
Speaker 5: nuclear weapons.

3263
03:01:07,160 --> 03:01:09,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, you can't and it is I

3264
03:01:09,959 --> 03:01:13,840
Speaker 1: will say this, like from a real politique point of view,

3265
03:01:13,920 --> 03:01:16,400
Speaker 1: you know, there's an argument to be made that like, yeah,

3266
03:01:16,520 --> 03:01:21,959
Speaker 1: the the kind of balance of nuclear power certainly provides

3267
03:01:22,000 --> 03:01:24,760
Speaker 1: a degree of protection to some countries. But my argument

3268
03:01:24,840 --> 03:01:29,439
Speaker 1: would be not having tested your weapons makes them more frightening.

3269
03:01:29,480 --> 03:01:31,200
Speaker 1: If you're France and you're like, look, man, anyone who

3270
03:01:31,280 --> 03:01:33,360
Speaker 1: tests us. We don't know what's going to happen when

3271
03:01:33,360 --> 03:01:35,120
Speaker 1: we fire these things. We don't know if they're going

3272
03:01:35,160 --> 03:01:36,920
Speaker 1: to go to the right place. We have no idea

3273
03:01:36,959 --> 03:01:39,400
Speaker 1: what will happen when we fire our nukes. So come

3274
03:01:39,440 --> 03:01:42,160
Speaker 1: on and fuck with us, but literally anything could happen.

3275
03:01:42,600 --> 03:01:44,560
Speaker 1: That just seems like a better threat to me.

3276
03:01:46,520 --> 03:01:50,240
Speaker 5: I'm not going to advocate that one, but I think

3277
03:01:50,280 --> 03:01:51,119
Speaker 5: that's the stance.

3278
03:01:51,160 --> 03:01:54,240
Speaker 1: I think that's the stance. You know, build increasingly large

3279
03:01:54,280 --> 03:01:56,880
Speaker 1: weapons and never test them so that we just know

3280
03:01:56,920 --> 03:01:58,959
Speaker 1: if shit goes down, we could all die.

3281
03:02:01,120 --> 03:02:01,320
Speaker 13: You know.

3282
03:02:01,400 --> 03:02:03,360
Speaker 4: Okay, well it doesn't, it doesn't.

3283
03:02:03,480 --> 03:02:06,360
Speaker 5: It doesn't involve nuclear testing. So I got I'm coming

3284
03:02:06,360 --> 03:02:07,360
Speaker 5: around to this position.

3285
03:02:07,600 --> 03:02:11,760
Speaker 1: Never never test them. Just build increasingly large doomsday devices

3286
03:02:12,200 --> 03:02:14,600
Speaker 1: and be like, no one knows what'll happen if we

3287
03:02:14,680 --> 03:02:20,000
Speaker 1: have a war. Why not maybe none of them work,

3288
03:02:20,040 --> 03:02:22,280
Speaker 1: and we all get to really think about what we've

3289
03:02:22,280 --> 03:02:25,959
Speaker 1: been doing, you.

3290
03:02:25,920 --> 03:02:28,160
Speaker 5: Know, I I in all seriously though, this is a

3291
03:02:28,200 --> 03:02:30,880
Speaker 5: massive victory. There are there are millions upon millions of

3292
03:02:30,879 --> 03:02:32,800
Speaker 5: people across the world, and millions of people who have

3293
03:02:32,879 --> 03:02:35,280
Speaker 5: yet to be born who are going to live their

3294
03:02:35,320 --> 03:02:38,039
Speaker 5: lives free of the effect of radiation poisoning because people

3295
03:02:38,040 --> 03:02:39,480
Speaker 5: stood up and fought nuclear testing.

3296
03:02:39,879 --> 03:02:41,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you.

3297
03:02:41,400 --> 03:02:42,840
Speaker 5: Know, this is the message that I want to sort

3298
03:02:42,879 --> 03:02:45,920
Speaker 5: of end Earth Day with with, which is the people

3299
03:02:45,959 --> 03:02:48,480
Speaker 5: who are destroying this world are incredibly powerful, and they

3300
03:02:48,480 --> 03:02:50,440
Speaker 5: are willing to kill protesters in order to keep their

3301
03:02:50,480 --> 03:02:52,920
Speaker 5: power and keep making the world further. But if you

3302
03:02:53,040 --> 03:02:55,400
Speaker 5: just keep fighting them no matter what they throw you,

3303
03:02:55,480 --> 03:02:57,879
Speaker 5: if you just every every single time they hit you,

3304
03:02:58,120 --> 03:03:00,800
Speaker 5: if you just come back and keep fighting again, you

3305
03:03:00,840 --> 03:03:03,800
Speaker 5: can win. And this is this is the way that

3306
03:03:03,840 --> 03:03:04,320
Speaker 5: it happens.

3307
03:03:05,920 --> 03:03:06,320
Speaker 4: All right.

3308
03:03:06,440 --> 03:03:08,400
Speaker 1: Well, that's that's so good. That's a nice that's a

3309
03:03:08,480 --> 03:03:13,400
Speaker 1: nice note to end on. So everybody get out there and.

3310
03:03:13,520 --> 03:03:16,280
Speaker 4: Get nuked once and then everything's fine.

3311
03:03:16,480 --> 03:03:19,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, get nuked once and you'll be okay. Like

3312
03:03:19,520 --> 03:03:24,200
Speaker 1: that scientist to drink the plutonium. It's surprisingly easy to

3313
03:03:24,360 --> 03:03:28,359
Speaker 1: not die when you get exposed to unbelievable quantities of radiation.

3314
03:03:30,520 --> 03:03:36,040
Speaker 1: That seems like a responsible note to end on. Hey,

3315
03:03:36,120 --> 03:03:39,240
Speaker 1: we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

3316
03:03:39,280 --> 03:03:40,960
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the universe.

3317
03:03:41,560 --> 03:03:44,040
Speaker 4: It Could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

3318
03:03:44,120 --> 03:03:46,840
Speaker 8: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3319
03:03:46,840 --> 03:03:49,080
Speaker 8: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

3320
03:03:49,120 --> 03:03:52,640
Speaker 8: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

3321
03:03:52,920 --> 03:03:55,080
Speaker 2: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

3322
03:03:55,120 --> 03:03:57,240
Speaker 2: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com.

3323
03:03:57,280 --> 03:03:59,160
Speaker 4: Slash sources, thanks for listening.