1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Today, 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: we plunge headlong into the politics of real estate, an 3 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: issue that never fails to concern people, even before the 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: changes brought about by the coronavirus, changes that we won't 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: understand fully for years to come. Joining us our two guests. 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 1: First up is David Schlicker of Yale Law School. His 7 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: expertise is land use. If that sounds dry, our talk 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: was anything but he kept presenting one surprising idea after another, 9 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: and even though as you'll hear, we disagreed on some points, 10 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: I found our conversation riveting. Then later in the show, 11 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: I'll talk with Gothamist Senior editor Elizabeth Kim about retail blight, 12 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: where ground level retail spaces go empty, a phenomenon only 13 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: worsened by the pandemic. But let's start with Professor Schlicker. 14 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: It's hard to find an issue that excites more passion 15 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: among urban dwellers than gentrification. For some, gentrification isn't just 16 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: a policy issue, it's an urban culture war. Schlicker rejects 17 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: that framing. He says that the real moral issue is 18 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: the lack of housing at all levels in every neighborhood 19 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: in every successful US city, And he says the blame 20 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: for gentrification doesn't sit squarely on the people moving in 21 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: the First thing that say is that in general, rich 22 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: people don't want to move to poor eors. They want 23 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 1: to live where other rich people are. Right, so that 24 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: if you ask a rich person coming to New York 25 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:37,919 Speaker 1: City where you want to live, they'd say Grench village, 26 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: or so they don't want to live somewhere in Brooklyn. 27 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: It's gentrifying, right. So the demand for gentrification is driven 28 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: by restrictions in existing developed areas. If we don't build 29 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: a new building in some place which people still move there, 30 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: they'll take the existing houses and they'll put up that 31 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: neutral font on the front um and renovate the whole thing. 32 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: And so demand to move into gentrifying area is driven 33 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: by broader economic forces, not by new construction. What is 34 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: the other side of that. So there's a theory that 35 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: a new building, even if it broadly reduces prices across 36 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: the city, region or whatever, could increase prices in its 37 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: neighborhood because it adds the whole foods, it adds a 38 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: wine bar, and then yuppies moving. Research increasingly shows that 39 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: that's not the case that in general, summarizing research by 40 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: Evan Mast and others, even at the neighborhood level, building 41 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: new housing because it adds supply, generally drives down rather 42 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 1: than increases prices in the area. Gentrification is driven by 43 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: restrictions on building everywhere. Who benefits from the status quo 44 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: in the New York real estate industry now as it 45 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: currently exists, So landowners mostly, And so landowners can be 46 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: big landowners or they can be small landowners like people 47 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: own apartments. Um, you've seen we've seen a huge increase 48 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: in the value of real estate, including individual apartments, houses, 49 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: and big landholdings, and so restricting development as much as 50 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: we do. The people who benefit from that, given the 51 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: huge demand to live here are people who have the 52 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: scarce resource. What about the real estate industry itself? Are 53 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: you saying they want slow growth because they want to 54 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: keep values high? So developers these days are mostly lobbyists, right, 55 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: So if you make it extremely hard to do something, 56 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: it's actually quite beneficial if you're the only person who 57 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: can get something through. Right. So if you are the 58 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: only person who can achieve the combination, weird combination of 59 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: lots and hire the fancy lawyers to get something built. 60 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: You're going to gain enormously, whereas someone who could build 61 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: a small pop up on top of their building but 62 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: can't deal with the politics won't see those gains. And 63 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: so it actually is quite an interests of lobbyists to 64 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: be the only winners in the system. Hudson Yards. Well, 65 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: so Hudson Yards gets a huge amount of public money. 66 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: It's a little bit more complicated situation because the city 67 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: wanted to build an alternative commercial center, a mall offices 68 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: really like a third downtown. Was basically the idea at 69 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: the time. I had recommended to see that they should 70 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: build murray Hill there, and everyone said, everyone hates murray Hill. 71 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: Why would you do that? And I said, New York 72 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: has enough places to go to. New York needs more 73 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: places to be from. And the mean, there's there's housing, bedrooms, 74 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: you need bore bedrooms, and there's housing built in Hudson Yards. Um. 75 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 1: It is valuable that office space in Manhattan to the 76 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: region because it's the most transaccessible place. But New York 77 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: City needs a lot more houses. Um. And they could 78 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: have built that with much less subsidy and it would 79 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: have been more value because I went to horrible. I mean, 80 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: it's another thing. Well, but I don't want to speak 81 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: ill of a specific project like Hutson Yards. But a 82 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: friend of mine was working in that area when we 83 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 1: took a walk through the shopping center, so to speak. 84 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: The mall is what I call it, and it looks 85 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: exactly like a mall like where I grew up on 86 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: Long Island. I got this chill. It was empty, and 87 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: I'm walking around and it's just Row and card Or 88 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: after Carridor of shiny glass and fancy stores and names 89 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: we all know. And there was nobody there buying anywhere. Yeah. 90 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: So one of the huge problems with Hudson Yards is 91 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: that it's off the street grid. And so the street 92 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: grid is a New York City's greatest invention as far 93 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: as i'm cancer. The expansion of the street grid makes 94 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: it easy to buy and sell property, It makes the 95 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: city legible to outsiders. And the moving it off the 96 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: street grid, you have to go in a building and 97 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: go up an elevator, which was designed to make it exclusive. 98 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: But that we see a kind of bias towards luxury 99 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: in these things, is itself a product of exclusion, right, 100 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: so that if you can only build one thing, it's 101 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: going to be bought the person with the most money. 102 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: And so the fact we talked about like is it 103 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: luxury or is it not luxury? Well, lots of housing 104 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: goes from luxury to not luxury, and the housing goes 105 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: from not luxury to luxury all the time. So I 106 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: lived in Park Slope growing up, my father and mother dead, 107 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: and um, a house was a luxury house when it 108 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: was built, it declined, it was subdivided into apartments, and 109 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: then now it's recomb the same house recombined into a 110 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: luxury apartment. Is it Is it a luxury house? Is 111 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: it not a luxury house? Luxury is either the finishings 112 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: you know, which you can come and go, or it's 113 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: a product of the supply and demand for the market. 114 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: And so among the downsides of the Hudson Yards project 115 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: is if it declines, which you know, things have the 116 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: habit of doing that, it's gonna be extremely hard to retrofit. 117 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: So that's the one thing which is that thinking of 118 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 1: like this is luxury and not luxury is the product 119 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: of the housing market as opposed to anything else. What 120 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: about people who are speculative buyers who are buying you 121 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: just that they're renting out, or they're just going to 122 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: sit on it and set them flip it eighteen months 123 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: or two years from now for a profit. Or people 124 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 1: who have these luxury residence as we read all about, 125 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: and they only come to New York for four weeks 126 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: you're on a shopping speed. Then they go back to 127 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: fill in the blank, some wealthy enclave. Overseas vacancies, you 128 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: do see very localized periods of the and see so 129 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: everyone's been to fifty seventh Street and sees these tall 130 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: buildings with no lights on. Um. The actual vacancy rate 131 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: overall in New York City is not very high. People 132 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: have this idea that the vacancy rate is driving housing prices, 133 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: and that is not so. Blaming the vacancy rate or 134 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: rich Russians for the housing market is a way for 135 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: people to displace blame from themselves. We are the gentrifying class, right, 136 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: So it's the group of people who are by we, 137 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: I mean upper middle class professionals to lower upper class professionals. 138 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: It is the lack of housing combined with increased demand 139 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: to live in the city that drives housing prices, And 140 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: it's not about rich Russians. That's a localized no, no, no, 141 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: there's been a very big increase in foreign ownership through 142 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: LLC's of New York City real estate. Most of those 143 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: apartments are rented out right. So the number of people 144 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: who own houses and just leave them vacant, it's generally 145 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: lower and high demand areas. It is not a major thing. 146 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: You want to see places with huge vacancy rates. It's 147 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: vacation areas. That's the areas that have huge vacancy rates. 148 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: Palm Beach, Florida has a high vacancy rate. Why because 149 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: which people use in a second house? Right? Um, If 150 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: you want to build affordable housing, if you even want 151 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: to talk about building more affordable housing in New York 152 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,119 Speaker 1: wherever it may go, is that a conversation that starts 153 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: in Albany or in city hall. So you're talking about 154 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: blow market rate capital, a affordable housing, not decreased price 155 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: of housing. So those are two different concepts that people 156 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: use somewhat interchangeably. Um. But the price of housing or 157 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: how affordable it is, is something that's driven by broader 158 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: supply and demand factors. We're talking about building capital as well. 159 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: Public housing or or subsidized housing of one version or another. Yeah. Um. 160 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: In that situation, both the city and the state play 161 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: both a funding and a regulatory role, and so these 162 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,079 Speaker 1: two issues are not completely distinct from one another. So 163 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: the city builds a lot of housing through its h 164 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: hpd UM, it does a lot through the inclusionary zone 165 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: and build how much would a lot of the affordable 166 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 1: housing that gets built is built by the city itself. 167 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: Was the last time they built affordable housing which is 168 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: not public housing in the sensors, But they do a 169 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: great deal of direct subsidy of construction. So every year 170 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,199 Speaker 1: they're doing thousands of units who the same people who 171 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: are on the waitlist to get other types of public housing. Right, 172 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: I'm just talking about housing for people who are earning 173 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: unders a year. We give below market rate housing to 174 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: people who are earning way above fifty dollars a year. Right, 175 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: so you frequently targeted in people earning a hundred thousand 176 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: dollars for a family of four. Right. So the state 177 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: funds and the city funds UM. The city is in 178 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: charge of sighting for the most part, and that is 179 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: where the land use piece and the funding piece come together. 180 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: So the fact that land is so expensive to buy, 181 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: even in the outer boroughs everywhere in New York and 182 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: makes different prices. But the city has to compete with 183 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: private market for buying a piece of land, which it does. 184 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: The cost of that piece of land will be higher 185 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: if we restrict, then if we don't restrict, So then 186 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: the issues are not completely distinct. I will say that 187 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 1: it is certainly the case that the kind of ordinary 188 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: construction market won't build housing for very poor people like 189 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: that is obviously true, the same way that the market 190 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: won't provide lots of things very popular. One of the 191 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: definitions of being very poor you can't buy things at 192 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: the market, and so that we as we need greater 193 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: subsidies through vouchers or what about the poor door to 194 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: enter for the affordable housing units? Does that exist in 195 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: the city. So it was a way to comply with 196 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: inclusionary zoning requirements. Um it's been phased out under the 197 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: Deblasia administration. There's a famous building on the Upper West 198 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: Side that had this component. It's very upstairs, downstairs story 199 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: define inclusionary zoning. Inclusionary zoning is a requirement that as 200 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: a condition on building you have to include a certain 201 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: number of subsized or capital A affordable units. Of course, 202 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: the broad question with inclusionary zoning of any sort is 203 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: should it be included in the building or should you 204 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: be able to build nearby separate building. And so the 205 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: poor door was a combination of these two things. It 206 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: was building in the building but off site. The question 207 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: is what's the point of inclusionary zoning? So is it 208 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: to create inclusion in the building level? Is it important 209 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: to have affordable units, capital A affordable units or blow 210 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: market rates on the same floor as market rate buildings. 211 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: Is it important that the neighborhood level, or is the 212 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: goal just over the golden sax guys living down the 213 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: hall from a school teacher, right? Is that the goal? 214 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: Or is the goal just increasing the amount of affordable housing? 215 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: Because if the goal is increasing the amount of affordable housing, 216 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: it's very frequently a more efficient mechanism to do it 217 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: off site, because if you're building in the fancy, fancy building, 218 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: you're going to include all sorts of amenities, the cost 219 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: per unit is higher for the same number of dollars, 220 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: you could build more affordable units off site, and so 221 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: isn't really beneficial. So the question it's just it's a 222 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: it's a it's a benefit if you think of it, 223 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: it's just a costly benefit. And so the question is like, 224 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: how do you think that mingling at the individual building level? 225 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: The goal, the mean justification for inclusionary zoning is uh 226 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: integration of this sort right at the neighborhood economic integration 227 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: um at the neighborhood level. And is it worth the 228 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: trade off of fewer units if you're the goal is 229 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: like deep integration in the building. And you know, people 230 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: can have their own beliefs about this. The last thing 231 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: I'll say about it is that it's not any form 232 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: of inclusionary zoning is costly right, because if you have 233 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: to build non market units inside of building, it's like 234 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: a tax on building. Um. We could fund public housing 235 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: in other ways, so we could make everyone who owns 236 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: property pay for it through the general property tax. We 237 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: instead tax building and so way of off floating responsibility 238 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: for our fellow citizens onto the developers and on newcomers. 239 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: It seems like it's free to say, if you're going 240 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: to build X, you have to build a certain number 241 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: of affordable units. But it's not free. It's just a 242 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: targeted spirit of the income tax in the sense that 243 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: those who have more money in the building, you're gonna 244 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: pay more. Well, that's true at the building level, but 245 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 1: there are plenty of people who have more and aren't 246 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: in that building, who are in the building that was 247 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: built before. Right, So that if you look at I 248 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: don't know, pick your fancy building in New York, a 249 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: lot of people who currently own there are super duper 250 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: duper duper rich, and we're not making them pay for 251 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 1: affordable units. We're only making the landowner and developed who 252 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: that where the building is being built. And so we 253 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: are taxing, and it's it is a tax um, but 254 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: it is at tax that's targeted on developers, newcomers, and 255 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: not on everybody else. Let's say you succeeded in securing 256 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: the funding and just in this fantasy, I come up 257 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: with a plan where I'm gonna build a hundred thousand 258 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 1: units of purely affordable housing, real old school affordable housing, 259 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: New York City Housing Authority housing. I'm gonna build building. 260 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: I'm gonna build a hundred thousand units over twenty years. 261 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: I'm gonna start, I'm gonna start identifying pieces of land 262 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: and we're gonna tear down this you know, this warehouse 263 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: that's defunct and this old plant that's not being used 264 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: more in the bronx. Is that the kind of thing 265 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: the city needs to be doing. So the thing the 266 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: city needs to be doing to address its broader housing 267 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 1: problems is building in lots of places of all building 268 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: types and market levels, right so that the city has 269 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: a housing crisis at all levels. The country needs to 270 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: build more subsidized housing, some of which will be in 271 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: the New York City region, but we also need more 272 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: market rate housing. And they're connected in the sense that 273 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: the cost or difficulty of building capital a affordable housing 274 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: um is increased if we restrict market rate housing, because 275 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: there's which one market for dart and so the city 276 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: needs to build a lot more we even market rade housing. Yes, 277 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: of course, people who are rent burdened in New York 278 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: is almost everyone. And further, New York City's restrictions on 279 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: its broader amount of housing create an extraordinary amount of 280 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: economic harm to the country. Zoning restrictions in New York, 281 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: San Francisco, Silicon Valley three markets, if they were relaxed 282 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: to the levels of your average American city, there's areas 283 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: would draw in lots of people wages are higher here. 284 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: That would increase the size of the US economy by 285 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: people estimate somewhere north of eight percent. And she has 286 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: some idea of what that would mean is that would 287 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: mean creating Canada. So Canada is ring eight or of it. 288 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: And so the effect of land use regulations in the 289 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: New York region broadly speaking, New York City being a 290 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: big part of it, but obviously not the only part. 291 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: We're talking New Jersey, Westchester, Long Island, Southern Connecticut maybe 292 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: the worst. And then Silicon valiant ETI. You're talking about 293 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: eight percent of the U s economy. It's an impossibly 294 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: large descent. The number one obstacle right now to not 295 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: being able to do that local regulations, for example, so 296 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: limits on heights, limits of the Greenage Village Society for 297 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: Historic Preservation is not someone you're a fan of. Oh no, 298 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: they're the worst. They're the worst. But I mean, I'm 299 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: a huge supporters totally to reach his own Do you 300 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: say Tomato, I say, you say how you say Andrew 301 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: Bourbon hows it? But it's not just the Grand Village 302 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: Historic Preservations is although they are a major but in 303 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: a preparatory way, What kind of a building do you 304 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: live in? I live in a Paul Building the Upper 305 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: West Side and a rental apartment at all building. What 306 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: do your pre war, post World war in a post 307 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: war post war building? Right? And if you had your way, 308 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: would the aesthetics of the building you live and be 309 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: of some significance to you? Would you like to live 310 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: in the app Thorpe or the bell Nord or the 311 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: elder san Remo used to live up there for years? 312 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: So no, um, I mean they're very nice buildings, don't 313 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: get me wrong and everything. But in general, in housing markets, 314 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: just as in all other kinds of markets, new things 315 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: are nicer than old things. Um. And the housing quality 316 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: in New York, for just forgetting you know, is um 317 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: extraordinarily low relative to places that allow ordinary building. So 318 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: you don't have central air. You go to the Dakota 319 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: and their window units in the decent right, people have 320 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: exposed radiators that the kids burn themselves on. But you 321 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: but you're your kids are burning their hands on radiators 322 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: in the Dakota. They do recognize that very fancy, right. 323 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: It's the air that's blowing in and leaking through the 324 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: rotting seam of the of the Friedrich air conditioning having 325 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: the window since nineteen sixty nine. That window is a 326 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: window in the Dakoda Dada. It's great. Some people kind 327 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: of dig the more power to them. And you know, 328 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 1: I don't care what people like, um, but in general, 329 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: uske of what I You know that in general, housing 330 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: quality is judged by a variety of metrics, so like, 331 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 1: you know, like energy efficiency and size of unit and 332 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: quality of insulation and stuff. Uh in units just because 333 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: they're new are frequently much better than old units, and 334 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 1: so like this is the thing. People kind of all 335 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: sorts of aesthetic preferences. I think some new buildings are nice. 336 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: I think some old buildings are nice. But you know, 337 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: the idea that historic preservation is about historic preservation as 338 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: opposed to being about aesthetics is probably wrong. We don't see, 339 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:55,959 Speaker 1: if we wanted to know what New York was like 340 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty or nineteen forty, we would choose a 341 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: random block from that period and allow no building. That's 342 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 1: not what we do. We choose the most aesthetically attractive ones, right, 343 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: So we see there's unbelievably beautiful blocks in Grandwich Village 344 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: or on the Upper West Side or wherever we do. 345 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: And the question is these things have clear asthetic value, 346 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 1: they're beautiful, and just has a cost to limiting them, right, 347 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: So it's just that you make trade offs. But it's 348 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 1: about aesthetics, not about histories. That is the central point. 349 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: The second thing I'll say is that I don't have 350 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,959 Speaker 1: any particular this block needs to be developed or that 351 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: block needs to be developed. One of the reforms I've 352 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: proposed and people have picked it up in a variety 353 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: of different ways, is to suggest that city should adopt 354 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: a zoning budget. They should say we need to build 355 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: X number of units this year. It could be designated 356 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: by the city itself or by the state for the city, 357 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: and the city could Then when you say someone says 358 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: I want to build this in Soho and you say no, 359 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: I don't want that built in Soho, the opponents have 360 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: to say where else it should go, and that we 361 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 1: are then able to have a real conversation about the 362 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: variety of aesthetic or social or whatever merits of a 363 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: given building project. In the context of acknowledg edging, we 364 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: need to solve New York City's housing crisis. So I 365 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: love Grene Village as much as the next guy. It's beautiful. Um, 366 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: the question is if we're gonna build near there or 367 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: should we build somewhere else. Opponents of building in Greenwich 368 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: Village should say, actually, you know, it would make a 369 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: lot more sensibuild in the upper east Side. That's a 370 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: good place to build, and then the people in the 371 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 1: Upper east Side said no, the other way around, and 372 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: we could have an honest discussion about the reality, the 373 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: kind of the non or should we be saying that people, 374 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: you want to tear the building down, you've got to 375 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: pass an aesthetic approval. No. No, they should be able 376 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: to build all the old family woods line. New York 377 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: is a town where we were ever teared down the building. 378 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: We always put up an uglier building. A city can't 379 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: be all stellar buildings. It's just not the kind of 380 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 1: thing it would work. I mean even aesthetics at the 381 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: street level, like many buildings here where you're going to stories, 382 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 1: let's have two stories of detail. When people propose very 383 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: very attractive buildings, they get rejected by community boards and 384 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 1: zoning approval, and when they prove ugly buildings they also do. 385 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: On the reason or one reason people don't bother to 386 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: spend a huge amount of money in architects. Is that 387 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 1: the people who oppose new building don't actually care that much, 388 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: but they say they care, but they actually just don't 389 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: want something built near them. And so in a building boom, 390 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 1: we generally get a bunch of great buildings, right. And 391 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: so one of the things that are modern boom has 392 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: not created is a bunch of great building because we 393 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: just don't have that many buildings overall. Um uh. And 394 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 1: so if it was in anyone's interest, if they really 395 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: think they could buy off the neighbors by hiring Frank 396 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: Gary to do it, they would because it's so valuable 397 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: to be able to build that it was worth it 398 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 1: politically to hire the schamanciest architects and the history of architects. 399 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: They do it because it's so valuable to them. Why 400 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: don't they do it because it doesn't matter that the 401 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: people who are opposing it. Andrew Berman would oppose anything. 402 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: He would oppose it. If it was beautiful, he'd apposed 403 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: it was ugly, he'd oppose it, if it was designed 404 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: by now that he would oppose it, I think in 405 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: his opinion. And the other thing I'd say about this 406 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: is the same point I made about Hudson Yards a 407 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 1: minute ago, which is that New York City need to 408 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 1: house people to go to its offices. Like that's Ultimately, 409 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: a city is a mechanism to connect people to retail opportunities, 410 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: commercial opportunities, and then has a life that's driven by 411 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: the fact that people are close together. In an extremely 412 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: characteristic but unromantic line, the Harvard economist Ed Glazier describes 413 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: cities is the absence of space between people. The city 414 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,239 Speaker 1: needs to house people, and it is an economic and 415 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: moral imperative to do so. Not doing so creates both 416 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: losses of output increases in an inequality. And you can 417 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: point to all sorts of other factors statics, historic preservation, 418 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 1: but the imperative that we allow the economy to grow 419 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 1: and that we fight an equality through building more housing 420 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: is sufficient that tradeoffs have to be made, and I 421 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: would love for people to confront those tradeoffs openly. Professor 422 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: David Schlicker, you heard his sharp critique of the historical 423 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: preservation movement and the limits it puts on new development. 424 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 1: You also probably caught that he isn't a fan of 425 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: Andrew Berman, a leader in that field. But i am 426 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: Berman runs the Greenwich Village Society for Historic Preservation. When 427 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 1: he came on the show, he argued that preserving neighborhoods 428 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: doesn't mean stopping development altogether. There's areas of our neighborhoods 429 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: where we've fought for new zoning that we thought would 430 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 1: encourage good development as opposed to bad developments, which meant 431 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: the expectation was things will get built. Give us an 432 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 1: example of an area where this came into play, for instance, 433 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: in the East Village. So the old zoning would have 434 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: encouraged big, tall towers. So we pushed foreign god a 435 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: reasoning that said, yes there can be new development here, 436 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: but the size and scale of it is going to 437 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: be more like what you think of the East Village. 438 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 1: Seven story building, six story buildings. This is what zoning does. 439 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 1: To hear my full interview with Andrew Berman, text Burman, 440 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: that's b E R M A N two seven zero 441 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: one zero one. I'm Alec Baldwin, and this is Here's 442 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: the thing. When it comes to real estate here in 443 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: New York, we tend to pay a lot of attention 444 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 1: to the cost of renting or buying a place, but 445 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: the real estate market is broader than that, and so 446 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: is the draw for living here. That's something that fascinates 447 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Kim. She's a senior editor at Gothamist, the New 448 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 1: York focused news website that's part of the New York 449 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: Public Radio family. She's written a lot about real estate, 450 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: including the hollowing out of the ground level boutiques that 451 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 1: define New York neighborhoods. We recorded our conversation before the 452 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 1: coronavirus completely changed street life and commerce in cities around 453 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: the world. There's a lot of talk about gentrification and housing, 454 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: but at the street level, it's about the bodega, the bookstore, 455 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: the bakery. It's about the erosion of these institutions because 456 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: the retail defines the character of a neighborhood. You know. 457 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: The New York City Controller Scott Stringer, he did a 458 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 1: very comprehensive study recently. He basically looked between two thousand 459 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: seven and two thousand seventeen, and he found that the 460 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: amount of vacant space in New York City doubled. Why 461 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: do you think that is typically what's going on? Well, 462 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: the number one reason if you talk to brokers, if 463 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: you talk to small business owners, it's the Amazon effect. 464 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: It's e commerce the way we buy you name it, shoes, books, clothing, 465 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 1: mainly on the internet. Now, there are other reasons to 466 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: One phenomenon that is really interesting in New York is 467 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 1: this idea of retail blight in places like the West 468 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: Village and soho. And these are properties in which investors 469 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: came in, poured a lot of money into buying these storefronts, 470 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: wanted exorbitant rents, and then found there was no market 471 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: for it, and rather than rent it at a lower 472 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: price and take a hit on their revenue stream, they 473 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: said they couldn't do that. They have to hold out. 474 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: So these are stores that are just been empty for 475 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: months and months and months that empty store. So I've 476 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: asked people that question. I've asked brokers that question, and 477 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: the answer I uniformly get from brokers and elected officials 478 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: is no. So this is basically what I've been told 479 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 1: by brokers. When they're buying these properties, they typically take loans, 480 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: and the terms of the loans state that they need 481 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: to generate a certain amount of revenue. The terms of 482 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: their loan is basically constraining them from lowering the rents. 483 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: And there's this whole kind of adjustment that needs to 484 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: happen in the market. The banks need to rewrite those loans, 485 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 1: and then then you know, the person holding the loan 486 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: needs to revise their expectations. Then there's the small business 487 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: owner who comes in and also needs to kind of 488 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 1: revise their expectations of what kind of rent they can, 489 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: you know, seek to ask of a landlord or or 490 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 1: demand of a landlord. So basically the market needs to 491 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: adjust in all these ways. And these are all things 492 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: that are lagging lagging indicators. You know, retail rents rose 493 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:33,959 Speaker 1: on average across the city over a decade, and in 494 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: some neighborhoods the average rent increases were and it's rent 495 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: that's often cited as the number one reason why we 496 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: have so many they can retail space. We used to 497 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,719 Speaker 1: have commercial rank control in the city in the fifties 498 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: and sixties. What happened so I haven't been able to 499 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: find out why it went away, And since the early 500 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: eighties there's been a call to reinstate some form of it, 501 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: and recently there is a Brooklyn Council member who has 502 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: introduced a bill calling for commercial rent control. And the 503 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: way it would work is basically, there would be a 504 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: board of you know, mayoral appointees, and they would take 505 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: a look at all the data that's out there on 506 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: all the rents, and they would set what they feel 507 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: is a reasonable rent for a particular neighborhood. And if 508 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: you're a landlord of a of a storefront or even 509 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: an office building, you would not be able to charge 510 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: more than that. Obviously, the real estate industry, I mean, 511 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: they've been fighting these types of controls since the early eighties. 512 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: I mean in the early eighties, the city Council talked 513 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: about this for many many years. Can we help landlords 514 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 1: and small businesses mediate a fair rent? So that's how 515 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: they wanted to do it at the time. M that 516 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 1: will that bill was just talked to death. And actually 517 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 1: that bill, believe it or not, it's still up for 518 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: debate and there are very strong um supporters of that 519 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 1: bill that still want to see that bills it was 520 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: originally introduced by Ruth Messenger such as they're you know, 521 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: they're just coalitions of small business activists. Where has de 522 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: Blasio been on this issue? And there is one plus 523 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: terms in officer, so Mayor de Blasio has supported this 524 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: idea of a vacancy tax, which would need to be 525 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: done through the state legislature, and that's something that's been 526 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: talked about a while as well. So if you have 527 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: an empty storefront that's been empty for you know, X 528 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: number of over x number of months, the idea would 529 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: be to impose attacks on the property owner because, like 530 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: we talked about, why our property owners able to keep 531 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: these storefronts vacant for so long? Don't they want to 532 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: earn some kind of rent, even if it's less than 533 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: what they expect it. And the theory is is that, 534 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: you know, similar to the residential market, there's just been 535 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: a lot of big investors that have swooped into this market. 536 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: So it's no longer just Joe Smith decides he wants 537 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: to buy this property. He's going to keep this storefront 538 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: on the bottom and keep it occupied. But instead it's 539 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: a private equity firm that's not just buying that one storefront. 540 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: He has maybe a portfolio, and because he has a 541 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: diversified portfolio, he or she can elect to wait and 542 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: maybe they have a sense that the market is going 543 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: to turn they can afford to hold. Yeah. So that's 544 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: why the idea of a vacancy tax is very interesting 545 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: because you would think that they would no longer be 546 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: able to absorb that much, you know. But when I've 547 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: spoken to brokers and property owners, what some of them 548 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: have said is, listen, we don't want it to be empty, 549 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: but look at what's out there. There are not enough 550 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: can in the dates to fill these storefronts. And to 551 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: a point, like you can kind of see that right 552 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: because I've spoken to also on the flip side, I've 553 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: spoken to small business owners who talk about how hard 554 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: it is to have enough money to fit out the 555 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: space because people have to realize if a bakery or 556 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: a restaurant wants to come in, they're responsible typically for 557 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: fitting it out. I mean, in a weekend market like this, 558 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: a landlord can elect to maybe chip in some money, 559 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: but traditionally, yeah, the build out, it's on the small 560 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: business owner. And then they start talking about the fifteen 561 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: dollar minimum wage, insurance, all of these costs that they 562 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: have to bear. It's not easy to be a small 563 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: business owner. So if you think about that, there's some 564 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: credence to this assertion by property owners that like, there's 565 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: not a ton of people that are beating down their 566 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: doors saying hey give me this space for you know, 567 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: just lower rent and give me this space and I 568 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: can make it work. When I came to New York 569 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: in nineteen nine, it was the big Soho Revolution, and 570 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: there was an edict from the city in the state 571 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: that the manufacturing core may return. So all the cast 572 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: iron buildings of Soho, we could not flip them into 573 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: residential where the pressure was for more apartments in New York. 574 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: And then finally everybody turned around and said, it's not 575 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: coming back. Do you foresee a time when the same 576 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: thing is going to be said of retail? It's not 577 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: coming back, So we have to make it into something else. 578 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: I think that's already being talked about. I mean, this 579 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: whole concept of pop ups. I mean, do you ever 580 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: hear of something like that where basically it's a store 581 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,959 Speaker 1: or brand agrees to occupy a space only for like 582 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: a limited time six months to a year. I mean, 583 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: that's a that's a new idea to the Airbnb of 584 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: commerce right there. So they're they're desperate for new ideas. 585 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: Were ever involved in covering the residential market at all. 586 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: So I cover real estate, and by real estate, that's 587 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: anything to do with the built environment. So I cover housing. 588 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: You know, I kind of moved into covering retail because 589 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: after speaking to people, I began to realize that that 590 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: is an integral part of the gentrification story, and it's 591 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: one of the first indicators of gentrification is when you 592 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,479 Speaker 1: start seeing, um, the stores turnover like it used to be, 593 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: like Starbucks. Right when you saw a Starbucks in what 594 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: used to be predominantly lower income neighborhood, that was a 595 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: sign that this area is gentrifying. So that's why I 596 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: find retail very interesting to cover because I almost think 597 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: that more than apartments, Um, everybody kind of sees what's 598 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: going on with the empty storefronts because it's so visible. Yeah, now, um, 599 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: who's a person who you think is understanding what's going on? 600 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: Not for profit, like from the ground up. I always 601 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: like to talk to housing activists because they can tell 602 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: me what our tenants experiencing right now in New York City? 603 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,239 Speaker 1: Are the rents going up? What's evictions? Like, what are 604 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: the housing conditions like our our landlords um treating them 605 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: better or worse post new rent laws that passed this June. 606 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: But you can't speak to the housing activists without also 607 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: speaking to the property owners or you know, the real 608 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: estate lobby. It's it's hard. Everybody has their particular perspective 609 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: and you kind of always have to be aware what 610 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: their political agenda is. So that's why oftentimes when you're 611 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: putting out a story, you have to get so many 612 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: voices in. Now, Um, you grew up where I grew 613 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: up in Queens. You grew up in Queens. So because 614 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 1: because for me, I was wondering what was in your 615 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: childhood a neighborhood. I grew up on Long Island, and 616 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: you went to the commercial strip where I lived, with 617 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: the same stores forever, this pizza place, this hair salon, 618 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: this butcher's shop, this lawnmower repair and fertilizer shop. They 619 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: were the same people there. They were there my whole life, 620 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: you know, and now we live in a city where 621 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: everything is changing. Was it like that when you were 622 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: young or was it consistent when you were a kid 623 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: in Queen's I think it was consistent similar to your experience. 624 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: I grew up in a neighborhood called Fresh Meadows and 625 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: I lived within walking distance of a Bloomingdale's, and as 626 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: a child, like that was like we were so proud 627 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,320 Speaker 1: to have it was like kind of like a middle 628 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: class neighborhood. Just the idea that as a as a teenager, 629 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 1: that that me and my friends were able to walk 630 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: a few walks and go into what we thought of 631 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 1: as a really swanky New York City department store. You know, 632 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: fresh Meadows in Fresh Meadows. Of all places, Bloomingdales knows 633 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 1: how cool Fresh Meadows is. The Bloomingdals is no longer there. 634 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: What's the store of the clothes that just really cut 635 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: you to the quick? The closure of Barney's to me 636 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: is significant because Barney's, Yes, was it a very expensive 637 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: luxury department store. It was, But if you also read 638 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: about Barney's, you know that Barney's supported a lot of 639 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: young and up and coming designers whose clothes end up 640 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 1: being very expensive, but a lot of their ideas wind 641 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:15,439 Speaker 1: up trickling down to the gaps of this world the right, 642 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,280 Speaker 1: and these ideas kind of actually affect, you know, people 643 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,879 Speaker 1: who can't even afford the clothes at Barney's. But there's 644 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: still it's disseminating ideas about culture and art and fashion 645 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 1: that do reach all of us in ways that we 646 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: might not even realize. Fast fashion dies. I don't feel 647 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: that bad about it. When I walked into Barney's. When 648 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: I walked into Barneys, and every five feet and I 649 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: mean that literally was a stanchion with a sign that 650 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: said everything must go. They had signs that said everything 651 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: must go, flooming and floating over every surface. You could 652 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: adhes the sign too. It was mind blowing to watch 653 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 1: Barney's on life support and you just see the people 654 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: hovering to pull the core. It's out of them and 655 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: the wires of them, and they're dead. So Gothamist is 656 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: compiling a list. Would you like to submit your nominations? 657 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: When Street and when that Barnes and Noble closed the 658 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 1: near Lincoln Center, I died. Yeah. It had the windows 659 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,919 Speaker 1: and the escalator and I loved that store and people 660 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,879 Speaker 1: hung out there all the time. It was right next 661 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: to the movie theater, so you just killed time, right 662 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:29,800 Speaker 1: the magazines. I have a coffee Tower Records of Tower 663 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 1: Records Records and H and H Bagels between eight and 664 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,439 Speaker 1: seventy the seventy ninth Street coffee shop. Like I did 665 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: this story on the closure of Dwayne Reads. Isn't that 666 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,760 Speaker 1: an interesting phenomenon? You know, for a long time people 667 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: hated Dwayne Reads because it was seen as this behemoth 668 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:56,320 Speaker 1: but now this behemoth, they're disappearing, and in this weird twist, 669 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: you know, people kind of a saddened by it. Similar 670 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: to Barnes and Barnes and Noble closed Shakespeare Bookshop on 671 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: Broadway in the eighties. Everybody's like, you know, hey man, 672 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,720 Speaker 1: very uptight about Shakespeare Bookshop leaving and Barnes and Nobles 673 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 1: are now Barnes and Nobles getting squeezed. Everybody's like, hey man, right, 674 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: because there was a sense of permanence. They were landmarks. 675 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,760 Speaker 1: It was going to be there for decades. You just figured. 676 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: And now you can't take that for granted that they're 677 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: going to have this extended lifespan in a community anymore. 678 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 1: What do your parents do for a living? What did 679 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 1: your dad and mom do for a living? My mom 680 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: was a residential real estate broker in Queens and my dad, 681 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: he worked at a Japanese shipping company. Was just a 682 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 1: clerical job, but he worked in the city. He worked 683 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: in the Twin Towers. He was retired before night. And 684 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 1: where did your writing career begin? So I graduated in 685 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight from the Journalism School Columbia. Yeah, 686 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: they would often have employers come on campus and they 687 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 1: would basically a hole up in a conference room and 688 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: then you signed up and you would get interviewed. And 689 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: at the time I had you been studying to be 690 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: a newspaper journalist and the industry was basically creating. And 691 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 1: there was this one local paper that came, which was 692 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: a paper in Stanford, Connecticut. It was called The Advocate, 693 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: and um, the editor at the time named John Brunik 694 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:26,880 Speaker 1: came and I could see I could see I was 695 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,359 Speaker 1: waiting outside. You know, it's like a glass conference room, 696 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: and you know, one after one people went in and 697 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: talked to him, and I was like thinking to myself, 698 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:37,799 Speaker 1: Oh my god, you know, this has to be like 699 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: the last job in newspapers. So I sat with him, 700 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: and he was very chatty, so I actually didn't get 701 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: to say much um. And then I shook his hand 702 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: and then I said, I need to I need to 703 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 1: get this job. If I don't get this job, there's 704 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,720 Speaker 1: no job out there for me in newspapers at least. 705 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:58,840 Speaker 1: And that was really what I wanted to do. I 706 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 1: wanted a very tradition anal journalism experience where I worked 707 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: in a smaller community and got to learn the ropes 708 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 1: that way. That that is what I wanted, and I 709 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: thought this was my ideal job. So I basically called him, 710 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 1: like maybe a week or two after meeting him, and 711 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: I just said, listen, I really want this job. What 712 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: can I do to get this job? And he said, 713 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: you know what, why don't you come in, we'll talk. 714 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: We'll give you an assignment. So somehow, I like gave 715 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: myself a crash course in driving, and I drove out there. 716 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: I was sweaty, I was a mess, and somehow I 717 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: managed to do this assignment in which they had me 718 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 1: drive around parts of rural Connecticut to cover some kind 719 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,799 Speaker 1: of school event, and amazingly I got the job. How 720 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,240 Speaker 1: long were you there? For? Seven years? I was so lucky. 721 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,799 Speaker 1: I was so lucky when it came time to leave there. 722 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: How did you know it was time? Oh? You could 723 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: see the writing on the wall. The staff was getting 724 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: smaller and smaller, and the stories were getting thinner and thinner. 725 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 1: And I just realized that if I wanted to grow 726 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: as a journalist, I couldn't do it there anymore. You know, 727 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 1: when I started out there, they used to have this 728 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,360 Speaker 1: big they made a big deal, like everybody had to 729 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: have this big Sunday enterprise story because Sunday was the 730 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: day where it traditionally most of the advertising came in 731 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: and everybody sought to have this big Sunday story. Well, 732 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 1: those Sunday stories started getting shorter and shorter, and if 733 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: you can't do that, if you can't do enterprise, I 734 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 1: just lose my interest in it. So from the UH 735 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 1: publication called The Real Deal. So in Stanford, that's when 736 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,160 Speaker 1: I first started covering real estate because when I got there, 737 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: the reporter who covered zoning and development was on um. 738 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: He he had to go to the military, so he 739 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,799 Speaker 1: was in Iraq, so he wasn't there. So they asked me, 740 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,720 Speaker 1: They said, can you do this? And no one wanted 741 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: that beat. Everybody hated covering zoning because it requires the 742 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,239 Speaker 1: most number of meetings, the longest meetings. You were there 743 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,240 Speaker 1: just at the the hall, like for hours and hours. 744 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: But I really didn't have a choice because I was new, 745 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 1: so I said, sure, I'll do it. You know, you 746 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: don't want to say no. What do you think it 747 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: is in you that gives you the patience and the 748 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: thoroughness to be willing to sit through these lengthy proceedings. 749 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 1: What is it about you? That links. You're able to 750 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,000 Speaker 1: do that, Oh well, I see. I tell people that 751 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: I'm beat agnostic. I would cover anything. To me, it's 752 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: about people. And that's why real estate is interesting, is 753 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:32,839 Speaker 1: because when you're talking about property, I mean like what 754 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:38,400 Speaker 1: engenders more passion then where you live than what you 755 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,720 Speaker 1: own or what you want to own. I love being 756 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: able to walk into a neighborhood that I haven't gone 757 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 1: to very frequently, and walking the area that I'm writing about, 758 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 1: and also meeting the people that I'm writing about. There's 759 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: nothing more interesting about being a real estate reporter than 760 00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,440 Speaker 1: getting to walk into somebody's home. There could be no 761 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 1: more to experience. Years ago, when I was buying my 762 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 1: first apartment in New York and you go and they say, well, 763 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,640 Speaker 1: this apartments for sale in this building or that building. 764 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: And the people had died and they hadn't put a 765 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 1: dime into that apartment for forty years. You know, they 766 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 1: raised their kids there and maybe they painted it, and 767 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: that was it. And you thought, you know, you just 768 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,399 Speaker 1: to see how other people live and their personalities etched 769 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,960 Speaker 1: into how they right, and you think about all the 770 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,839 Speaker 1: stories at the dinner table and what was cooked in 771 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 1: this kitchen. Yeah. Yeah, it's all of that. It's all good. 772 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 1: Gothamist Senior Editor, Elizabeth Kim. I'm Alec Baldwin and this 773 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: is here's the thing