Speaker 1: We're excited to talk to Derek Johnson back on the show. Derek,
Speaker 1: I think what was it maybe a year or has
Speaker 1: it been two years now?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Maybe two two years. Good to see you.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, good to see you too.
Speaker 1: One of our favorite conversations last time, really getting deep,
Speaker 1: deep into the weeds on the pitching side. So we
Speaker 1: appreciate the time again. Hope you're having a nice offseason.
Speaker 1: First off, how is everything going for you? And are
Speaker 1: your off seasons kind of the same.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I live in Cincinnati. Yeah, yeah, I live
Speaker 2: in Cincinnati, and and you know, I'm at the field
Speaker 2: quite a bit, and you know, but yeah, typically it's
Speaker 2: about the same. You know, there's not really a whole
Speaker 2: lot going on here. But but yeah, it's been a
Speaker 2: productive off season for us so far on the pitching
Speaker 2: side of things. And I know our guys aren't done
Speaker 2: quite yet. We're still trying to figure out a couple
Speaker 2: more players if they can.
Speaker 4: Before we get to the team.
Speaker 5: How many times, how many times or how many guys
Speaker 5: are actually at in Cincinnati that you watch throw or
Speaker 5: coming in working out, because normally we hear about dudes
Speaker 5: that are down in Phoenix, down in goodyear working out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we actually just had an event Red's Fast and
Speaker 2: it's a big fan convention kind of thing, so I
Speaker 2: actually got to see pretty much every guy on the squad,
Speaker 2: you know, throw the at least throw the baseball, if
Speaker 2: not a bullpen, So that was good. I do spend
Speaker 2: some time in Arizona down there when we can, in
Speaker 2: the laboratory, if you will, and you know, see those
Speaker 2: guys pitch down there, you know, every now and again
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 5: Do you think more should be done for pictures? We
Speaker 5: talk about the off season. We're in the middle of
Speaker 5: it right now. Should more be done? I'm not trying
Speaker 5: to put more on your plate. I know you like
Speaker 5: your job, but you also like your family. So should
Speaker 5: more be done? Or do we let pitchers and position
Speaker 5: players but you work with pitchers kind of just go
Speaker 5: willy nilly, We're gonna go to tread, I'm gonna go
Speaker 5: drive line.
Speaker 4: Hey, talk to me in two weeks.
Speaker 5: Should teams that spend hundreds of millions of dollars on
Speaker 5: their roster spend more time with players in the offseason?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, and I think coaches,
Speaker 2: you know, we talk about it all the time. I'm
Speaker 2: not sure there's a clear answer there, But what I
Speaker 2: will say is after every year, we put together a
Speaker 2: player plan for each guy that that we know is
Speaker 2: going to be returning, and it's pretty extensive. We do
Speaker 2: a lot of work, a lot of digging on how
Speaker 2: the year went and maybe what we could do next,
Speaker 2: and you know, try to simplify it down to a
Speaker 2: point where we've got one or two things that we
Speaker 2: want them to work on. A lot of guys now
Speaker 2: have built the labs and their complexes and their spring
Speaker 2: training complexes, and so you know, we have all of
Speaker 2: the capabilities pretty much that a drive line or a
Speaker 2: tread you know, would have. I guess the question is,
Speaker 2: you know, do they want an outside source, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe just another set of eyes kind of looking at them.
Speaker 2: And I respect that. I mean, I think the guys
Speaker 2: at drive Line, the guys at tread, you know, they
Speaker 2: all have very good qualities about them. Probably the worst thing,
Speaker 2: you know, if if you could point to one thing,
Speaker 2: is they don't know the player nearly as well as
Speaker 2: I do. So you know, there's there's probably room for
Speaker 2: a little bit of both. But I do think that,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't want to just turn them the
Speaker 2: guys loose and say, hey, have at it. You know,
Speaker 2: now every year they all come back with one more
Speaker 2: new pitch that you know, we've got to figure out
Speaker 2: if they could use or not. And half the time,
Speaker 2: you know, they scrap it about mid mid spring training anyway.
Speaker 2: But but yeah, it's a it's a great question.
Speaker 6: Derek, where do you stand on pitchers throwing the whole offseason?
Speaker 6: Because you're talking about tread and drive line, and these
Speaker 6: guys throw innings and they get they do their updowns,
Speaker 6: especially bullpen guys. Let's say they get into seventy games
Speaker 6: and then they take two weeks off and then they're
Speaker 6: at drive Line or tread or in goodyear at your facility,
Speaker 6: and they're chucking balls as hard as they can. And
Speaker 6: then guess what, it's only November, right, and in December, January, February,
Speaker 6: and then you got to be ramped up for April.
Speaker 6: So where do you stand on guys taking a breather?
Speaker 6: Because it seems like less and less guys take one.
Speaker 2: You're right, it's it's sort of a trend. And I
Speaker 2: guess when I first got into it, it almost felt
Speaker 2: like they take took too much time off and now
Speaker 2: they're kind of gravitating back towards you know, not as
Speaker 2: much time. And I think it varies on the guy.
Speaker 2: I think if you know, he reached his max innings,
Speaker 2: you know, there's there's probably a little bit of rest
Speaker 2: needed on the front end of things. You know, we
Speaker 2: had a couple of guys that were close to eighty
Speaker 2: appearances in the bullpen, and certainly you know that guy
Speaker 2: probably doesn't need to have a baseball in his hand.
Speaker 2: So I think timing is really important in that, you know,
Speaker 2: one of the things that we try to do. Some
Speaker 2: guys love it, some guys don't do it, but we
Speaker 2: we kind of deload after the season's over. So I
Speaker 2: actually still have them throw a little bit after the seasons,
Speaker 2: usually about three times a week for a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2: Then it kind of goes to two and then they
Speaker 2: sort of, you know, put the arm to bed for
Speaker 2: a while. But I think timing is really important if
Speaker 2: they're going to go to one of those places, you know,
Speaker 2: I still think that there needs to be at least
Speaker 2: a chunk of time where you know they're they're you know,
Speaker 2: just kind of actively you know, in the weight room,
Speaker 2: pilate's whatever that might be without a baseball in your hand.
Speaker 2: So I think the the later it gets, you know,
Speaker 2: as you get into November December, I think that'd be
Speaker 2: a perfect time to go to tread or or somewhere
Speaker 2: to do the work.
Speaker 4: You mentioned new pitches. Does anybody have a new pitch?
Speaker 4: Like this is the time first?
Speaker 2: I mean, you've got they every year they have a
Speaker 2: new one, right, you know. I mean I'm kind of
Speaker 2: joking on that, but but they are. They always kind
Speaker 2: of fiddle right there. Hey, I put this two seamer
Speaker 2: in my hand, I put this split in my hand.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm thinking about a curve ball and that
Speaker 2: It's fine, you know, to me, it's it's your career.
Speaker 2: You know. If you want to experiment on a pitch
Speaker 2: that you think might help you be a better pitcher,
Speaker 2: than I'm all for it.
Speaker 3: It.
Speaker 2: I just think it's kind of funny too, because you know,
Speaker 2: a lot of times they'll come in and say, I've
Speaker 2: got that change up that we've been talking about, and
Speaker 2: then halfway through spring training they refuse to kind of
Speaker 2: throw the thing. But you know, I think it's a
Speaker 2: good thing, you know, in a joking sort of way.
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Speaker 6: Derek, you said something interesting and when a couple answers
Speaker 6: ago about I give personal posts our off season plans
Speaker 6: to guys that we are expecting your return. Well, we've
Speaker 6: heard Hunter Green, we've heard Andrew Aba, we've heard Nick
Speaker 6: Lodolo on the trading block. So did they get their
Speaker 6: off season planned because you're expecting them to be back?
Speaker 2: Good segue? Yeah, and they did. They received one. And
Speaker 2: you know, you never know what happens on the business
Speaker 2: side of things, and you don't know for sure who
Speaker 2: is going to be on your team probably until you know,
Speaker 2: maybe even opening day. But you know, those guys, they're
Speaker 2: still young enough, they're controllable enough, you know. And I
Speaker 2: know that there's rumors out there. I hear them too.
Speaker 2: I'm sure the players do you know. I think it's
Speaker 2: it's just like anything else. I mean, our guys have
Speaker 2: to and I say our guys in the front office,
Speaker 2: they have to explore every option that they possibly can,
Speaker 2: and that includes trading some of our players. You know,
Speaker 2: do I hope that it happens? No, I don't. But
Speaker 2: at the same time, you know, if it means that
Speaker 2: our team can get better in another way that we
Speaker 2: really need it to get better at, then you know,
Speaker 2: and then I think you got to look at it
Speaker 2: and say, okay, well, you know, we do have a
Speaker 2: little bit of depth pitching wise, especially on the starting end.
Speaker 2: You know, they are fairly young still, so they're going
Speaker 2: to be you know, I think people are gonna they're
Speaker 2: going to gravitate towards that situation, and they're they're all
Speaker 2: pretty good, so you know, it does stand a reason
Speaker 2: that's a possibility. On the other side of things, I
Speaker 2: think our guys in the front office they're smart enough
Speaker 2: too to try to do whatever they can to keep
Speaker 2: as much pitching here as possible, because it seems like,
Speaker 2: you know, every single year, you know, especially in the
Speaker 2: smaller markets, you're just going to be you're not going
Speaker 2: to feel nearly as deep. A guy gets hurt, you know,
Speaker 2: a couple guys gets hurt, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: we don't have the same kind of depth that we
Speaker 2: thought we did. So I think it's a lot of
Speaker 2: just moving parts, and you know, I expect them all
Speaker 2: to be there, and you know, when they're not, or
Speaker 2: if they're not, then I guess the player playing goes
Speaker 2: with them and whoever team they can figure it out.
Speaker 5: Obviously you can tell me if I'm wrong, But you
Speaker 5: basically have four guys that are solidified for those five
Speaker 5: rotation spots. That last spot, Chase Burns is obviously a
Speaker 5: guy that's up there. What do you a What have
Speaker 5: you seen from him? What do you need to see
Speaker 5: from him? Or the other guys that are in competitions
Speaker 5: in spring training when it's like, all right, guys, I
Speaker 5: know you're building up, but you're evaluating. We used to
Speaker 5: always say when we're playing, nobody makes the team on
Speaker 5: the first day of spring training practices. But you sure
Speaker 5: as heck could get cut on the first day because
Speaker 5: you show up and you look terrible, you don't throw well,
Speaker 5: your lax of days ago, whatever it is. What are
Speaker 5: you trying to see from the guy who's going to
Speaker 5: take that spot, if it's Chase Burns or if it's somebody.
Speaker 2: Else, Well, I mean I can give you kind of
Speaker 2: three guys that would probably be in that mold of things.
Speaker 2: And you know you're talking about Brandon Williamson, who's been
Speaker 2: here a little bit. He was hurt all last year Yeah,
Speaker 2: Rhet Lauder, who was here at the end of last
Speaker 2: year two years ago, same thing, had no bleak and
Speaker 2: ended up just not really having much of a season.
Speaker 2: And then you have Burnsy. I'll start with Burnsy and
Speaker 2: just say, like, listen, he's twenty two years old and
Speaker 2: he was fresh out of college basically when you know
Speaker 2: when we brought him up. I mean, he barely had
Speaker 2: any minor league time at all. He learned a lot.
Speaker 2: I think in the time that he was here. He
Speaker 2: kind of learned how to slow himself down, which is
Speaker 2: obviously a huge thing for especially for a young guy,
Speaker 2: but he learned how to throw bullpens, maybe in a
Speaker 2: little bit of a different way than what he was
Speaker 2: He kind of figured out some of his timing with
Speaker 2: when he was going to lift weights and going to
Speaker 2: do all the stuff. And you know, that's kind of
Speaker 2: been the I guess the battle cry around here, if
Speaker 2: you will. I mean, we've had a lot of really
Speaker 2: young pitchers who were they they just weren't finished products.
Speaker 2: So we had to work a lot on just normal things,
Speaker 2: throwing programs. You know, just what the routine was going
Speaker 2: to look like. And you know, so I can go
Speaker 2: on down the list with every single guy that you
Speaker 2: mentioned mentioned here that that's what we had to do
Speaker 2: with them. So you know, it's no different with Burnsy.
Speaker 2: He kind of learned. He was kind of learning on
Speaker 2: the fly and he had his feet to the fire
Speaker 2: and he did a really nice job. You know, Louder
Speaker 2: doesn't really have very much major league experience. He has
Speaker 2: some he can really really pitch, and you know, I'm
Speaker 2: looking forward to kind of letting those guys battle it out.
Speaker 2: And then you know, Brandon Williamson man like a couple
Speaker 2: of years ago, he was pretty good and he hung
Speaker 2: into games with us and you know, just really kind
Speaker 2: of gave us a shot in the arm and we
Speaker 2: needed it.
Speaker 5: Wait, DJ, I was going to ask something completely different,
Speaker 5: and now you brought it up. Your background was elite
Speaker 5: college baseball and you came to pro ball. You were
Speaker 5: the pitching coach when I was on the Brewers at
Speaker 5: the same time. And now we're hearing minor league baseball
Speaker 5: could cut some of their teams because these elite college
Speaker 5: programs are getting the players ready already.
Speaker 4: But you just said Chase Burns.
Speaker 5: Wasn't quite ready in his preparation in his so would
Speaker 5: you seeing both sides of it. Now, trying to win
Speaker 5: in the big leagues and trying to win in college.
Speaker 5: Can they take care of that and the colleges take
Speaker 5: care of what's needed for a man to compete in
Speaker 5: the big leagues professionally.
Speaker 2: In a lot of ways, yes, but in so many
Speaker 2: just functional ways.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you think about it. Obviously, they're
Speaker 2: test pitching more and they just there's just things in
Speaker 2: the big leagues that there's no way a college team
Speaker 2: could ever prepare the player for. I mean on the
Speaker 2: physical side, sure, but it's just it's gonna be really
Speaker 2: really hard for them to match that.
Speaker 5: All right, now, you quit on the Brewers and went
Speaker 5: to a nice contract. I remember having a conversation with
Speaker 5: you that you were like, I got to do this
Speaker 5: for my family.
Speaker 4: And it's been an incredible move from the Brewers to
Speaker 4: the Reds.
Speaker 5: I don't know if we're going to show the chart,
Speaker 5: but one of the great interns for us made a
Speaker 5: chart from Baseball Savant that had a the basically the
Speaker 5: graph of how the Great American Small Park, which is
Speaker 5: a home field for the Reds, used to suck to
Speaker 5: pitch in. And ever since you've been there, it has
Speaker 5: steadily gotten tougher and tougher to hit him. Is that
Speaker 5: a concerted effort or is that just a reality of
Speaker 5: the pitchers you have because your home, your home numbers
Speaker 5: for your starting rotation for your staff are much better
Speaker 5: than your road numbers. So is there a concerted effort
Speaker 5: to make a place where free agent pitchers say, I'm
Speaker 5: not going there hit a fly ball.
Speaker 4: Even AJ can hit a home run there.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I do think it's gotten better, but
Speaker 2: I think it's just been more of a like a
Speaker 2: mental adjustment. Back then, they were looking for a lot
Speaker 2: of contact pitching, you know, sinker slider, guys that could
Speaker 2: put the ball on the ground, and not that that
Speaker 2: was the wrong way, but it certainly didn't really change
Speaker 2: anything that they were doing. I mean, their pitching was still,
Speaker 2: you know, not probably as good as it needed to be.
Speaker 2: When I got here there, there was one thing for
Speaker 2: sure that we talked a lot about, and that was
Speaker 2: swing and miss. You know, I did want to make
Speaker 2: guys miss the ball because of the size of the ballpark,
Speaker 2: and we've done a better job of that, And of
Speaker 2: course we've had years where we've we've struck a lot
Speaker 2: of guys out. We've had, you know, a lot of
Speaker 2: whiff and that kind of thing. We've had other years,
Speaker 2: it wasn't quite as much. And you know, I think
Speaker 2: with young pitchers who throw hard, you know, you're you're
Speaker 2: going to probably get too much walk in there as well,
Speaker 2: which isn't a good thing in this kind of ballpark.
Speaker 2: But you know, first we don't we don't ever talk
Speaker 2: about it. You know, it's never going to be an
Speaker 2: excuse for us. We know that we play in a
Speaker 2: ball a small ballpark. We've seen the front row homers
Speaker 2: that shouldn't be home home runs. But I do think
Speaker 2: it comes from that mentality of swing and miss and
Speaker 2: not just contact. I mean, we want we contact as well,
Speaker 2: but but man, if I if I could choose one
Speaker 2: or the other, I choose with every single time, especially
Speaker 2: in this ballpark. The other thing too is I think
Speaker 2: when you come to this kind of ballpark and you know,
Speaker 2: you guys both hit so you know better than I.
Speaker 2: But you know, I also almost think that there's put
Speaker 2: a little bit more pressure on themself to try to
Speaker 2: hit a homer, which so you know, if we can
Speaker 2: use that aggression against them, that that's gonna help us.
Speaker 5: Is Hunter Green and ace. We talk about this several times.
Speaker 5: There's only in my opinion, AJ's opinion, there's only seven
Speaker 5: to ten aces in the game.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of number ones. Just Hunter Green an ace.
Speaker 2: It's it's a great question. And the answer to that
Speaker 2: is he's sure can be, and he's on his way
Speaker 2: to be. I think, like anything else, you know, when
Speaker 2: you think of an ace, you think of a guy
Speaker 2: that you know he's going to take the ball every time,
Speaker 2: and and he's just going to grind things out, and
Speaker 2: you know, he's everyone's going to look at him when
Speaker 2: he's pitching and say, that's that's my guy. And I
Speaker 2: think Hunter took great steps towards that last year. You know,
Speaker 2: Unfortunately for him, he just keeps getting banged up a
Speaker 2: little bit and and there's just enough of that to
Speaker 2: where it's like, as soon as he can get into
Speaker 2: that one hundred and eighty inning range, I think that
Speaker 2: we're all going to be maybe looking at that saying, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's that's what a nace looks like. But there's a
Speaker 2: maturity part of that too, you know. And and he's
Speaker 2: now been in the league. You know, I don't know
Speaker 2: what three or four years or whatever it's been, and
Speaker 2: he's taken steps in every facet of that as well,
Speaker 2: you know, and it's fun to watch because you know,
Speaker 2: Lodolo has done that, Abbot's done that. You know, I
Speaker 2: expect that Burnsy will too. So you know, I just
Speaker 2: think there's those stepping stones that pitchers take, and you know,
Speaker 2: we've seen almost again kind of like underneath the spotlight
Speaker 2: of these guys taking those steps to get, you know,
Speaker 2: get to that status. And Hunter's certainly capable, and he's
Speaker 2: a great kid, and he's become a very very good worker,
Speaker 2: very conscientious in what he does, and he's become a
Speaker 2: real pro.
Speaker 1: We're talking to Derek Johnson, pitching coach director pitching for
Speaker 1: the Cincinnati Reds VET in our game Guru of Pitching.
Speaker 3: Derek, what do you think about the baseball?
Speaker 1: Do you think it's ever going to change drastically or
Speaker 1: have more consistency in Major League baseball?
Speaker 3: It's probably not a topic you think.
Speaker 1: About a ton, but we don't really get I mean,
Speaker 1: like you during the season, so curious to get your thoughts.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think about it a lot. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, it's pretty easy to see like when you
Speaker 2: grab a baseball. Sometimes it just feels really good in
Speaker 2: your hands, and sometimes it doesn't, and they all are
Speaker 2: still different. I mean they are hand wound or whatever,
Speaker 2: so you know, I mean, I think the balls are fine.
Speaker 2: They put him in the human door, they do all
Speaker 2: the stuff that they're supposed to do. They rub him regulation.
Speaker 2: I think the one thing that I always kind of
Speaker 2: laugh about is, you know, we're rubbing a baseball with
Speaker 2: mud from a river somewhere I don't know, Delaware or
Speaker 2: wherever it is. You would think that there'd be a
Speaker 2: product out there that we could rub up a baseball
Speaker 2: with It would actually be a little better than you know,
Speaker 2: river mud, you know. I mean there's leather conditioner. I
Speaker 2: put leather conditioner on a baseball and it's still pretty white.
Speaker 2: But man, the thing feels tremendous in my hand. Whereas
Speaker 2: you know, you put it, put the mud on it,
Speaker 2: you put it in the humid door. It comes out
Speaker 2: and sometimes they just feel real, real slick, real chalky.
Speaker 2: It's almost like the mud made it worse. So I
Speaker 2: don't think it'll change unless they tackify it. They've they've
Speaker 2: talked about that before. They've never really were able to
Speaker 2: come up with anything that, you know, everyone was okay with.
Speaker 2: But I felt some of those tack balls and they
Speaker 2: felt fine with me. I know Japan uses them all
Speaker 2: the time, and I think the guys there like them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why I asked.
Speaker 1: We got to get rid of the mud situation at
Speaker 1: some point, poor mud getting used.
Speaker 2: We're using red weird.
Speaker 3: That is weird.
Speaker 5: That's such an MLB mafia type of thing to do. Like, Hey,
Speaker 5: I know a guy that's got some Delaware mud. We're
Speaker 5: gonna put it on the ball mud everywhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my cousin, it doesn't make any sense to me.
Speaker 3: I'm with you.
Speaker 1: Well, Derek, we appreciate the time, the insights always awesome.
Speaker 3: Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 1: Enjoy the rest of the off season while you've got it,
Speaker 1: and we'll see in spring training.
Speaker 2: Hey, thanks, fellows. I appreciate being on.
Speaker 1: At MGM Futures. How about those Blue Jays eighty eight
Speaker 1: and a half dubs?
Speaker 3: I think that's love.
Speaker 6: Yeah, they won how many last they won?
Speaker 4: Ninety four? Last year?
Speaker 6: Right, I believe so they tied the Yankees at ninety four.
Speaker 6: So how did their number go down?
Speaker 3: Yeah, ninety four? Well, they got worse. They only added
Speaker 3: a million people this off season.
Speaker 4: That's not okay.
Speaker 6: But they picked up Dylan Cease, they picked up.
Speaker 3: On the Moto Rogers in the bullpen.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think they got much improved, just my opinion.
Speaker 3: But he had a good year. He did, but it's
Speaker 3: not costing them six wins though. Yeah, I don't I
Speaker 3: don't know.
Speaker 6: I mean the division got a little bit better too,
Speaker 6: which maybe people are thinking that MGM's thinking, but I
Speaker 6: don't know.
Speaker 4: I think that I think this one's an over.
Speaker 3: World Series hangover. I mean, I know, the winners, the
Speaker 3: losing of.
Speaker 6: The World Series usually the next year doesn't do great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they went deep. I mean, you went
Speaker 1: as deep as you can go into the playoffs. You
Speaker 1: really worked guys.
Speaker 6: But a lot of those guys, A lot of those
Speaker 6: guys aren't even back. Sure's are Bascett guys aren't back.
Speaker 6: Bo's not back, but was playing on one leg. I
Speaker 6: don't know, God, I think I.
Speaker 4: Think they're okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you. I'm taking the over. I'm just
Speaker 1: presenting maybe why they'd throw it out there. Krats any ideas.
Speaker 5: If the number was ninety then I'd be like I'm
Speaker 5: not touching it. But because eighty eight, I'm like, man,
Speaker 5: why does this feel like it should be like it
Speaker 5: should be an over? And that's what makes me scared.
Speaker 5: It just seems too much like an over. But because
Speaker 5: they have them pretty much finishing right the same amount
Speaker 5: of wins as the Cubs, Mets, Blue Jays, Braves, all
Speaker 5: Red Sox, all right in that eighty seven eighty eight range,
Speaker 5: and I think there's a clear distinction of Blue the
Speaker 5: Blue Jays being a better team than them. But then
Speaker 5: two years ago, we would have never said.
Speaker 3: That things change fast in our league.
Speaker 1: So drop a comment if you have other thoughts as
Speaker 1: to why it's gone down to eighty eight and a half.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure it was affected by maybe an
Speaker 1: anticipation that Kyle Tucker was going to sign.
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