WEBVTT - And, This is Secretary Leon Panetta 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:14.200 This is Gavin Newsom and this is Secretary Leon Panetta. 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:18.800 The Secretary, thanks for taking the time to be with us, 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:22.919 and as a fellow Californian, it seems appropriate that I 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:26.320 start here. We have so many topics to discuss. Obviously, 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:32.240 many issues going on that are radically evolving in real 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:36.360 time overseas. But one thing that continues to evolve in 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:39.160 a very remarkable and meaningful way here in our own 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:42.239 state of California, in Los Angeles is the deployment of 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:46.479 close to five thousand military personnel that last count was 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:52.640 four nine and forty six formerly National Guard, now federalized 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:58.240 and active duty US Marines that have been deployed to 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:02.560 the streets of Last Angeles. But mister Secretary, what's remarkable 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:04.440 to me, and this is where I want to begin 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:08.119 with you, is only a very small percentage have been 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:13.760 mission tasked. The rest, quite literally are sitting around waiting 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:18.920 for assignments. Thousands and thousands of former National Guard men 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:23.720 and women that were working to do drug interdiction, working 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:27.120 on the border on behalf of the state, including many 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:31.000 of them working for other state agencies in law enforcement, 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:35.240 have been federalized. And I'm curious your thoughts about what 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:38.720 you've seen in Los Angeles, your own reflection as a 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:41.920 former secretary of Defense, former chief of staff, did you 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:46.400 ever imagine thousands and thousands of men and women being 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:50.360 federalized against the wills of a governor of a home state. 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:56.000 Well, first of all, thank you for having me as 0:01:56.080 --> 0:02:02.400 part of your podcast here. It's good to be with you, Gavin. Look, 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:10.200 I have a very different approach here as former member 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:13.960 of Congress, former director of the CIA, and former Secretary 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:19.639 of Defense, I think it's very important for this country 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:25.399 to respect the role of the military. And the role 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:30.720 of the military is basically to defend this country from 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:36.400 foreign adversaries. And throughout our history, we've been very clear 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:40.280 that the role of the military ought not to be 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:47.960 used for law enforcement purposes. And I believe in that because, frankly, 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:52.280 we need the military to protect our national security. The 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:57.280 President just used our military to conduct an attack in Iran. 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:00.959 That's what the military is about, that's what they're trained 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:04.440 to do. Uh, And we have to respect that role. 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:09.600 And if we if we do anything to politicize the 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:13.480 role of the military, it basically weakens our national security 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:20.799 and weakens our national defense. So I think that there 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:26.919 are some real concerns about the political politicalization of our 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.640 of our military, and particularly the activation of our National 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:37.360 Guard here in California. It raises real concerns about whether 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:41.400 or not politics are being played. Uh. I really do 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:48.920 believe that this country deeply trusts our military because they 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:53.480 protect our national security. I hope we can stick to 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:55.120 that role. Well. 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:59.119 I certainly appreciate that, and and and you know, it's interesting. 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:02.120 Just recently in Los Angeles we had some of the 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:06.920 most destructive wildfires in US history, and we deployed roughly 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:09.440 three thousand of our National Guard men and women. They 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:12.680 were there on the scene quite literally. They had prepositioned 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:16.800 these rattlesnake teams, they were doing some defensive work on 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:21.520 vegetation management before the fires erupted, and thousands were deployed 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:28.720 within hours and days to protect and support our law enforcement, 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.960 obviously our firefighters, but also keep the peace. They're extraordinary 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:36.760 young men and women, and to see them used in 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:40.680 this way is remarkable as much as it is demoralizing, 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:45.200 not just for those of us in positions that we share, 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.159 but for them themselves. I mean, this is not what 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:51.760 they signed up for to be in this position. 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:57.520 That's exactly right. Look, our National Guard has been extremely important, 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:03.880 very important element again to our national security. During the 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:07.719 time we were conducting the war on Terror, the National 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:12.360 Guard was actually being deployed and activated abroad to try 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:16.120 to help in the war against al Qaeda and terrorism. 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:22.400 And that's what the National Guard is all about. You know. Obviously, 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:28.040 governors like yourself I have a responsibility to be able 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:31.640 to activate the National Guard when they're needed, as you 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:36.919 did certainly with regards to the fires in California, and 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:42.360 certainly with regards to other areas where you feel it's necessary. 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:47.880 And that is what the National Guard is for. When 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:52.760 a president comes in and basically activates them for what 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:57.040 I believe are more political purposes than purposes related to 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:03.799 protecting the public's interest. As I said, it undermines trust 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:10.159 not just in our way of government, it undermines trust 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:14.400 in the fundamental role of the National Guard in our military. 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.960 So I'm very concerned about this. I think we have 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:21.799 to continue to hold the line, do the right thing, 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:26.560 make sure that we're making the right decisions, and ultimately 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:34.679 I think we will we will get back to using 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:38.200 the National Guard the way they're supposed to be used, 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:41.320 because that is what the men and women in the 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:45.359 National Guard, that's why they joined, is to be able 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:48.800 to be deployed pursuant to the law, not against the 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:50.120 law here here. 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:53.760 Well, I appreciate that settlement, and we're doing what we can, 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.720 not only to exercise our moral authority as it relates 0:06:56.760 --> 0:07:01.480 to calling that out and trying to organize a larger consciousness. 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.480 This is, by the way, not about California. The order 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:07.760 that initiated this as a national order, the President of 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:10.600 the United States now can move freely on the basis 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:14.480 of this action to do the same on a whim 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:18.360 with any modest protests that law enforcement local law enforcement 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:23.480 can easily address, and now can look to weaponize the Guard. 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:28.240 But I'm curious, I'm sure saw the President's speech at 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.600 Fort Bragg, so much attention a few days later was 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:34.920 placed on the military parade, and I'm curious your thoughts 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:37.680 on that, And I think good people can view that 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:41.080 through very different lenses. But the Fort Bragg speech, I 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:44.800 think underscores with Secretary some of your comments. In this case, 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:48.320 not the National Guard, but men and women in uniform, 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:54.560 active military personnel, hooting and hollering booing, former president, the 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:59.960 current governor California, other elected officials. At the same time, 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.560 I'm the President of the United States, as he was 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:10.160 giving a speech, was selling Trump campaign merchandise. I don't 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:13.120 want to tee up a softball for you, but I imagine 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:17.400 again it's a former CIA director, not just former Secretary 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:19.600 of Defense and chief of Staff. And for a member 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.920 of Congress, you ever seen anything like that? 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:32.640 Look, I you know, I obviously we live in unique 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:40.559 times with a president who doesn't necessarily respect all of 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:46.480 the values that past presidents, whether they're Republican or Democrat, 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:53.280 have always respected. And when he turns, when he past 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:56.320 that kind of speech, which is basically a political rally 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:02.520 with our men and women in uniform orm in many ways, 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:09.040 he's demeaning their role. And you know what bothers me 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:13.120 is that I believe the President of the United States, 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:19.160 as commander in chief, is responsible for protecting our national security. 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:22.720 And the way you protect our national security is by 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:28.120 deploying our men and women where you need them in 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:35.040 order to ensure that we protect our democracy. That's why 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:39.920 they're there, that's why we train them, that's why they 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:43.560 go into the military. This is a volunteer force. They 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:47.920 go in because they want to basically help defend this country. 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:52.400 I've looked into their eyes in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere, 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.439 and these are young men and women who are prepared 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:59.000 to fight and die for our country, and they will 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:02.640 respond to the order of a commander in chief when 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:06.880 necessary in order to help defend this country. The president 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:10.720 needs to respect that role. The President of the United 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:15.120 States needs to respect the role of our men and 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:21.679 women in uniform, not use them for political purposes, not 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:27.760 politicize their mission, not have a political rally at a 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:33.679 military post, but give them the respect that they're due, 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:38.160 which is that their primary role is to defend this 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:43.280 country from foreign adversaries, and not use them as if 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:47.840 somehow he's an autocrat who would just basically use the 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:53.520 military to protect his power. That is a misuse of 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:55.680 the responsibility of commander in chief. 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:04.560 There seems to be a lack of clarity in terms 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:09.240 of that perspective and response, particularly from Congress. You served 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:14.000 in Congress for well sixteen plus years and you revere 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:18.400 the institution. I've heard you, mister Jecretary, on previous interviews 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:21.520 talking about of all the jobs you had from O 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:25.719 and B director to working under the Nixon administration. Remarkably 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:29.320 in that Office of Civil Rights, that your time in Congress, 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:33.160 when it worked, it was a point of deep pride 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:38.240 in reverence. You look at Congress today, you look at 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:42.800 the lack of oversight, checks and balances, You look at 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:46.160 what I would refer to as the appalling silence on 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:51.920 issues like those we just discussed. What's your assessment where 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.040 we are and how the hell do we get out 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:54.960 of this moment? 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:01.040 Well, I have a very deep respect for our founding 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:06.280 fathers and what they wanted in their genius to do 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:12.920 in creating our democracy. They made very clear at the 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:17.440 Constitutional Convention that they did not want to centralize power 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:20.600 in any one branch of government. They didn't want a king, 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:23.920 they didn't want a king parliament, they didn't want a 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:27.920 star chamber court. They had seen what that was about 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:32.400 in those times, and so they wanted to make sure 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:39.280 that they would limit power. And the way they did 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.840 that is by creating three separate but equal branches of government, 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:47.040 each a check in balance on the other. And for 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.560 two hundred and fifty years, that system of checks and 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:53.760 balances has worked pretty well. It's been threatened, it's been challenged, 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:58.240 but it's worked pretty well. And we are now in 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:01.559 one of those periods where system of checks and balances 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:07.760 is being tested. And my concern right now is that 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:12.040 the institutions they created to provide that check and balance, 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:19.280 they themselves are being tested. Congress, unfortunately, is not standing 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.959 up and really being a check in our system right now. 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:34.520 They're basically standing back and giving the president a free ride, 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:39.079 a blank check with regards to everything he's doing, rather 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:43.560 than serving as a check, rather than having the hearings 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:47.240 that have to be done, Whether than rather than standing 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:52.240 up and saying no, we cannot abuse the Constitution of 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:56.160 the United States. We swear an oath to preserve, protect, 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:59.000 and defend the Constitution. We have to stand by that. 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:02.079 I was a believer in that, as somebody in Congress 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:05.319 who swore that oath, and I think that's what Congress 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:09.440 has to do. That's not happening. We understand that. So 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:12.080 the only check that's happening right now, we certainly aren't 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.160 getting a check by the executive. The only check that's 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.200 happening right now that's effective or the courts, and I 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:21.520 give them a tremendous amount of credit for their willingness 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:25.400 to stand up and to be able to uphold the 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:30.960 rule of law. Unfortunately, as we all know, it takes 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:33.840 time for the courts to act, and a lot of 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:37.880 damage can be done in the interim. So I really 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.800 think it's important that our system of checks and balances work, 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:44.040 and probably the only way that's going to happen right 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:47.440 now is the American people, because the American people are 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:52.000 the ultimate check in a democracy. That's in the constitution, 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:56.680 their ability to vote, their ability to vote for elected 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:02.160 leaders is the fundamental check in a democracy. So I 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:06.320 remain hopeful that ultimately we will get through this because 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:12.800 our forefathers believed that we cannot afford to centralize power, 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:14.760 certainly in the presidency. 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:19.360 I appreciate it. I'm reminded as you share those words 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.640 and thoughts of justice Brandeis who said, in a democracy, 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:27.920 the most important office is office of citizen. This notion 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:32.120 of active not inert citizenship, and it's reminded everybody listening 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:36.520 of the imperative to reconcile the fact that you're not 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:38.960 by standards, that we have agency, that we can shape 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:43.400 the future. And I think in so many ways we 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:49.000 saw that on the same day that the President was celebrating, 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:54.240 and I certainly appreciate celebrating with the kind of reverence 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:59.960 they deserve. The United States military in a parade same time, though, 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:02.760 millions of people showed up in a not King's rally, 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:08.520 sort of reinforcing the framework that our founding fathers tried 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:13.080 to correct, our least counter and I think it shows that, 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:18.880 you know, democracy is still alive bottom up, if not 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:20.240 the moment topped down. 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:25.200 Yeah, Gavin, I often say that in my over fifty 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:27.960 years of public life, I've seen Washington at its best 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:32.000 and I've seen Washington at its worst. The good news 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:36.560 is I've seen Washington work. When I was first elected, 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:41.480 Tip O'Neil was Speaker of the House, a Democrats Democrat 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:44.960 from Boston, but he had a great relationship with Bob Michael, 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:49.560 who was the minority leader from Illinois, and the basic message, 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.280 of course, they had their politics. You know, they fought 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:55.320 each other in election, but when it came to big issues, 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:59.000 they worked together. The message we always got is that 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:02.560 Republicans and Democrats have to work together in order to 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:06.000 govern the country, and we did. We did during the 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:11.880 Reagan administration, a Democratic Congress passed Social Security reform, it's 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.399 the third rail of politics. We passed it with a 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:21.520 bipartisan vote. We passed immigration reform, comprehensive immigration reform, bipartisan, 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:27.480 bipartisan vote. We passed tax reform. We dealt with the budget. 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:33.400 We were able to frankly pass agreements to help bring 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:36.760 the deficit down and discipline the federal budget and balance 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.680 the federal budget, not only balance it, but get a surplus. 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:44.280 That was done because parties were willing to work together. 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:48.360 Today we are at a time when there's a lot 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:51.840 of partisanship, a lot of division, a lot of unwillingness 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:55.320 to be able to govern together, and the result is 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:59.680 that Washington is dysfunctional and that is hurting our democracy. 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.520 On that topic, because we've explored that on the podcast, 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:07.040 we've had a number of interesting guests and people very 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:10.480 familiar to you. Former Speaker Nuke Gingrich was on. We 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:14.040 had an opportunity to talk to Frank Luntz. Obviously that's 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.399 very personal to you because you referenced in that list. 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:20.440 You have a lot of receipts on that list. As 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:23.800 personal as personal as it is to you, not only 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:26.680 as a former member of Congress some of those line 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:29.040 items you just listed, but also you were achieve a 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.840 staff of Bill Clinton when we had that balanced budget. 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:35.440 You worked with Nuke Gingrich across the party lines. You proved, 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:39.720 not just asserted that we can work together across our differences. 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:42.919 But the question that I'm continuing to sort of be 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:45.760 vexed with is what the hell happened and when did 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:49.640 it happen? And who's responsible? And when did things start 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.600 to collapse? I mean, at the same time it seemed 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:56.720 to be peak partisanship. You guys were working together in 0:18:56.720 --> 0:19:00.520 the Clinton administration. You took over it. I'll say with 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:03.320 love and respect to former President Clinton, but it was 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:07.760 rather dysfunctional office at the time he got shellacked in 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:12.159 the mid terms. You've described the former President Clinton is 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:16.960 being depressed in terms about his standing, and you came 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:20.400 in and you were part of that turnaround, and you 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:25.280 also advanced a different frame, a close fist talk about 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:32.080 turnaround with an open hand, to partner with a Republican speaker, 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:36.000 and produced those results. But was that the moment things 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.640 were advanced or was that the moment was not a setback? 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:43.040 Again? It was not an easy time. As yeah, as 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:47.600 you pointed out, Imagine, I mean the president, President Clinton, 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:53.639 you know, really was moving forward. He had passed a 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:59.000 very tough budget. We were passing appropriations bills, He passed 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:03.560 family leave, he passed NAFTA, he passed a number of things. 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:09.880 And then, as you all know, in politics, it can 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:13.879 come back to bite you, and it did in the midterms, 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.879 and the President lost the Congress to the Republicans, and 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:22.840 he was depressed about, you know, where his administration was 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:27.120 going to go. And I having been through these changes 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:31.159 in my own lifetime, I told the President. Look, ultimately, 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:35.719 every crisis provides an opportunity. This is a crisis. It 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:39.919 does provide an opportunity. You need to sit down and 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:42.120 try to see if there are areas where we can 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:46.200 work together. Unfortunately, at the beginning, Newt Ginrich took a 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:48.920 position he was going to push for his own budget, 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:52.720 cut Medicare and cut some other vital programs. The President 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:56.280 dug in, and what the Republicans did in response was 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:59.600 to shut the government down. The government was shut down. 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:01.640 This is the first time the government was shut down 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:05.800 for almost two weeks and had backfired on the Republicans 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:10.080 and a new Gintadge then to his credit, decided maybe 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:12.520 the better approach would be to actually try to work 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:15.440 with the president. The President took him up on that. 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:17.880 They were able to work together. We did some things 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:20.920 on the budget, we did some things on healthcare. We 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:24.680 were able to get things done. But that was because 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:28.159 there was a willingness then to try to see if 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:31.720 we could govern together, to get back to the basics 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:35.360 of governing together, that's what needs to happen. I mean, 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:39.000 I think in some ways, I'm really offended that the 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:42.119 President of the United States did not give a heads 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:45.920 up to Congress on this military strike that took place 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:50.560 in Iran. That's the responsibility of the President to be 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:54.399 able to inform the Congress, both Republicans and Democrats, the 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:57.879 Gang of Eight, as to what's happening with regards to 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:01.479 our National Security Command. Chief is deploying our men and 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:05.840 women into harm's way. He's got to be willing to 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:09.360 make sure that both Republicans and Democrats on the Hill 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:16.240 are aware of what is happening. And unfortunately that didn't 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:19.800 take place, and I think it's a real slap in 0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:24.280 the face to how our democracy should function. You know. 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:28.320 Interestingly, Miss Secretary, I can attest to that just on 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:31.480 a personal basis, because I was speaking at an event. 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:38.320 I was with minority leader Jeffries, and as he was 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:42.400 walking out of the event, we all started to see 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:46.880 on our cell phones what had just occurred. We spent 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:50.359 an hour and a half at that event talking about 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:55.240 every conceivable issue, and here it was happening in real 0:22:55.280 --> 0:23:00.000 time and the future Speaker of the House of Representative, 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:02.399 to your point, was not even They didn't mean the 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:06.480 curacy of a heads up. But I'm curious on that 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:08.760 and going back just briefly, and I want to move 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:11.920 off it, but I am fascinated. I mean, we talk 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:15.560 about this dysfunction, we talk about Tip O'Neill and all 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:19.800 the wonderful stories of O'Neill and Reagan working together across 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:23.360 their differences. You've amplified that as relates to ephen Clinton 0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:26.480 and Gingrich. But was there a moment? Was that moment, 0:23:26.520 --> 0:23:28.600 despite the fact that you were, they were able to 0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:33.800 persevere and those two personalities, remarkable personalities, historic personalities, Clinton 0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:37.399 and Gingrich were able to finally find some common ground. 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:38.680 Was that the beginning of the end? 0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:38.960 Though? 0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:42.600 I mean, do you mark that as a moment where 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:46.640 things did radically change the government shut down the approach 0:23:46.680 --> 0:23:49.359 Gingrich had an an initial approach in terms of his 0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:52.200 relationship with the presidency and the executive. 0:23:51.800 --> 0:23:55.000 There's no question, and I've told Nut this directly. I 0:23:55.040 --> 0:24:04.960 said that what happened was that Newt was really struggling 0:24:05.000 --> 0:24:09.040 to try to get Republicans in power, and he was 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:13.760 willing to undermine the institution of the House of Representatives 0:24:13.800 --> 0:24:16.439 in the Congress in order to get that done. He 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:22.600 actually basically undercut almost members in his own party in 0:24:22.720 --> 0:24:24.480 order to be able to do that. And it was 0:24:24.560 --> 0:24:29.439 kind of a real cutthroat approach to politics, and it 0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:34.560 created some bad feelings. And look, Democrats made their mistakes 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:42.959 as well, and when both sides decided that rather than 0:24:43.000 --> 0:24:45.719 working together, they would get into their own trenches and 0:24:45.760 --> 0:24:51.159 basically throw grenades at one another, that really was the 0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:55.280 beginning of the end in terms of governing. I mean, 0:24:56.480 --> 0:25:00.199 the problem is for the last twenty years. Look, tell 0:25:00.280 --> 0:25:03.560 the students at the Paneta Institute that in a democracy, 0:25:03.600 --> 0:25:08.520 we govern either by leadership or by crisis. If leadership 0:25:08.600 --> 0:25:11.399 is there and willing to make tough decisions that basically 0:25:11.480 --> 0:25:15.359 reach across and try to develop consensus and compromise, we 0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:19.480 can avoid crisis, but if that leadership isn't there, then 0:25:19.520 --> 0:25:22.240 we'll govern by crisis. And I have to tell you, 0:25:22.280 --> 0:25:25.280 for the last twenty or twenty five years in Washington, 0:25:25.359 --> 0:25:30.600 they've largely been governing by crisis, and that undermines trust 0:25:31.119 --> 0:25:35.120 in our basic system of governing. And that's why, very frankly, 0:25:35.880 --> 0:25:43.560 Washington is so dysfunctional right now. 0:25:43.840 --> 0:25:47.600 You know, in your remarkable career and spends quite literally 0:25:47.640 --> 0:25:50.879 over half a century and continues to this day at 0:25:50.920 --> 0:25:56.000 the Paneta Institute, you served in many different roles. Of course, 0:25:56.200 --> 0:25:58.879 we reflect on the last time we had a balanced 0:25:58.880 --> 0:26:01.639 budget and even a surplus US under your tutelage and 0:26:01.920 --> 0:26:04.919 stewardship as chief of Staff and the Clint administration, but 0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:07.520 you went on to serve in other roles, and as 0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:10.960 I've referenced a moment ago from omb to obviously Secretary 0:26:10.920 --> 0:26:16.399 of Defense and CIA Director, I'm curious your reflection. You know, 0:26:16.440 --> 0:26:20.320 there's been it seems to me, an assault on knowledge, 0:26:20.359 --> 0:26:24.520 particularly at West Point. Recently there was reports not specific 0:26:25.040 --> 0:26:29.359 that books are being banned Baldwin. You know, other books, 0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:35.320 well known authors, historic facts that appear to be being 0:26:35.359 --> 0:26:39.600 censored West Point. My gosh, these are the best of 0:26:39.680 --> 0:26:43.600 the best, these remarkable young cadets, and I'm just curious. 0:26:43.720 --> 0:26:46.159 You know, you were part of they're sort of pulling 0:26:46.200 --> 0:26:50.320 back and don't ask, don't tell women in the military 0:26:50.440 --> 0:26:53.640 and being able to lead, you moved in a very 0:26:53.640 --> 0:26:57.200 different direction in your leadership roles. What's your reflection of 0:26:57.359 --> 0:27:00.560 where we are now in this sort of assault on 0:27:00.640 --> 0:27:04.560 all things quote unquote wokeness or dei or even un 0:27:04.640 --> 0:27:06.080 historic facts. 0:27:08.000 --> 0:27:14.360 Well, you know, Devin, I'm the son of immigrants, Italian 0:27:14.359 --> 0:27:20.120 immigrants who came to this country like millions of others, 0:27:19.080 --> 0:27:25.879 and I can remember asking my dad why did he 0:27:25.920 --> 0:27:28.399 come all of that distance to come to a strange land? 0:27:29.280 --> 0:27:31.879 And I never forgot his answer, which was that my 0:27:32.000 --> 0:27:35.040 mother and he believed they could give our children a 0:27:35.040 --> 0:27:38.080 better life in this country. I think that's the American dream, 0:27:38.119 --> 0:27:42.879 and that's what we want for our children. And I 0:27:42.920 --> 0:27:46.240 think to get there, we have to embrace our freedoms, 0:27:46.359 --> 0:27:51.560 not destroy our freedoms, not destroy our openness, not destroy 0:27:51.720 --> 0:27:55.320 our ability to learn from one another. We may not 0:27:55.640 --> 0:27:59.239 like what others say, but the ability to listen, the 0:27:59.280 --> 0:28:04.119 ability to have a say, the ability to enjoy different 0:28:04.200 --> 0:28:07.760 points of view is what is what our freedom, what 0:28:07.800 --> 0:28:11.399 the American dream is all about. I had, you know, 0:28:12.040 --> 0:28:16.919 young young people who were who wanted to serve in 0:28:16.960 --> 0:28:20.760 the military. That's a good thing. We ought to give 0:28:20.800 --> 0:28:24.240 them that opportunity to serve. And that's what I tried 0:28:24.280 --> 0:28:29.639 to do as secretary. You know, regardless of their race 0:28:29.800 --> 0:28:33.639 or color, or creed, or or sexual preference. The fact 0:28:33.760 --> 0:28:37.000