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Speaker 1: Get in with technology with tech stuff from stuff Peter

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Speaker 1: are welcome to tech Stuff. I'm Jonathan Strickland and joining

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Speaker 1: me in the studio today is the illustrious and Mr

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Speaker 1: Ben Bowland of stuff they don't want you to know

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Speaker 1: and car stuff, among other things. Welcome back to the show. Ben, Hey, Jonathan,

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Speaker 1: thank you for having me. Oh man, illustrious? Is it

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Speaker 1: the pain meds from my recent doctor visit? Or am

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Speaker 1: I'm moving up in the world. It's literally that you're illustrated. Actually,

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Speaker 1: there's true. Ben has had people mark all over him

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Speaker 1: and crayon today. I'm not gonna ask why I don't

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Speaker 1: get into personal lives in the show. Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a big deal. Whenever I could be on

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Speaker 1: the show and I wanted to do something special, my

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Speaker 1: suits at the cleaners got a bunch of Sharpie's and

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Speaker 1: ask people to go nuts. Yeah, it's kind of like

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Speaker 1: body paint, but really they'll super like on the cheap

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Speaker 1: because we just can't. We don't have that in our budget, honestly,

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Speaker 1: right note, but hope springs eternal. What's weird about having

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Speaker 1: um all these all these colors and markers all over me?

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Speaker 1: Is that anything I touched literally is leaving a trace? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that kind of you know, we were going to

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Speaker 1: have a really in depth conversation on how catalytic converters work,

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Speaker 1: but once I noticed you doing that, I thought, why

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Speaker 1: don't we talk about DNA forensics, like the traces people

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Speaker 1: leave behind. So, uh, that's why I decided to switch

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Speaker 1: in the last minute. I hope you can roll with it.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, and just in in you know, Ben

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Speaker 1: and I have talked a little bit about our our

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Speaker 1: mutual interest in the true crime uh discipline, the whole

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Speaker 1: the whole true crime like field, and it turns out

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Speaker 1: we're not the only ones in the office. There are

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Speaker 1: certain people in the office who have a really deep

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Speaker 1: interest in this sort of stuff, and so we thought,

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Speaker 1: you know, would be kind of fun to explore the

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Speaker 1: concept in different shows. So if you listen to all

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Speaker 1: of How Stuff Work shows, you may have noticed things

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Speaker 1: popping up here and there that's not entirely by accident.

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Speaker 1: So uh really was one of those things where as

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Speaker 1: we all started talking, we're like, hey, you know, I

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Speaker 1: would like to do something in that and we can

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Speaker 1: kind of It's almost like an easter egg for those

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Speaker 1: of you who subscribe to lots of different shows, and

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Speaker 1: you should let us know if you thought it was

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Speaker 1: really cool. So from the technology standpoint, we thought DNA

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Speaker 1: forensics would be really really interesting to cover and to

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Speaker 1: talk about how it actually works. Uh, what are the processes,

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Speaker 1: what are some of the challenges, What are some of

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Speaker 1: the things that people are doing with DNA forensics now

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Speaker 1: that might end up helping, uh, like investigations in the future.

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Speaker 1: Where could it actually end up giving us a false positive,

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Speaker 1: because there there is the possibility of that as well.

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Speaker 1: But to start it all off, we really kind of

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Speaker 1: have to lay the groundwork. Yeah, I was gonna I

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Speaker 1: was just gonna ask you. I hate to be the

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Speaker 1: bad kid in class right now, but what's what's DNA?

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Speaker 1: D oxy ribonucleic acid, man, Yeah, that's what is so obviously,

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Speaker 1: you know, anyone who's had science class, like a biology

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Speaker 1: class anything recently, you know all about DNA. But you know,

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Speaker 1: we gotta build from the ground up. So DNA is

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Speaker 1: a molecule that carries the genetic instructions that govern the development, function,

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Speaker 1: and reproduction of organisms. DNA is found in all of

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Speaker 1: your cells. Essentially an entire blueprint of what makes you

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Speaker 1: you is in every single one of your cells in

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Speaker 1: the form of d N a uh, and the molecule

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Speaker 1: is in that double helix form. So that says, if

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Speaker 1: you were to make a ladder and then twisted into

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Speaker 1: a twisty shape, that's the DNA double helix. The rungs

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Speaker 1: in that letter are made up of pairs of what

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Speaker 1: we call nucleotides. Alright, So each rung on the ladder

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Speaker 1: is two different nucleotides that that bond together. Uh. There's

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Speaker 1: adenine and thymine. Those always pair up together. So those

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Speaker 1: are your two base pairs of nucleotides that will always join.

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Speaker 1: And then there's guanine and cytosine and those always join.

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Speaker 1: And it's the sequence of these pairs that end up

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Speaker 1: determining what makes you you, right, yeah, yeah, so it

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Speaker 1: could be. And these pairs can affect multiple the order

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Speaker 1: of these pairs can affect multiple characteristics. Sure, yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: And also what's really interesting to me is that point

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Speaker 1: nine of all the DNA that is in you is

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Speaker 1: shared with every other human Like we we have ninety

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Speaker 1: nine percent of our DNA is in common, which means

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Speaker 1: the stuff that makes you who you are as indifferent

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Speaker 1: from every other person, makes up just point one percent

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Speaker 1: of your DNA. But that's all it takes, is that

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Speaker 1: point one percent. That's about three million base pairs that

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Speaker 1: are unique to you unless you have an identical sibling.

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Speaker 1: Ah ah the old Now this goes into um, this

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Speaker 1: verges into some good detective fiction. Now, yes, that old trope,

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Speaker 1: the evil twin, Yeah, exactly, it wasn't me. It was

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Speaker 1: my evil twin or or evil triplet or evil quadruplet

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Speaker 1: really which we did an ill fated brain stuff but

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Speaker 1: it was, oh my gosh, we did. We did. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: If you if you watch brain Stuff, the video series,

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Speaker 1: and you look up how twins work, Ben and I

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Speaker 1: did a funny At the time, I thought. I still

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Speaker 1: thought there were parts of it that were funny. Honestly, Ben,

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Speaker 1: I still fully enjoy it, but my sense of humor

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Speaker 1: is very corny. So but if you want to see,

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Speaker 1: if you want to see me and Ben dressing up

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Speaker 1: in two different types of outfits, like we're the good

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Speaker 1: Ben and Jonathan and then there's the evil Ben and

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Speaker 1: Jonathan and we each have an eye patch. Jonathan and

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Speaker 1: I were talking and it was it was strange because

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Speaker 1: when we were talking about doing this episode, we said, wow,

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Speaker 1: how could we represent evil twins like I I patches?

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Speaker 1: Clearly because you know, the goatee is not gonna work

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Speaker 1: for right because and like neither of us were going

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Speaker 1: to end up shaving just so that I can be

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Speaker 1: the good twin. But both of us are the kind

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Speaker 1: of person who would have an I patch. And actually

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Speaker 1: I ended up taking a quick walk to a nearby

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Speaker 1: toy store to pick some up. Um. So, at any rate,

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Speaker 1: if you do have an identical sibling, your identical sibling

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Speaker 1: shares your DNA. There they are identical, like the DNA.

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Speaker 1: If you were to compare the two and look at

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Speaker 1: those base pairs, they're going to be the same all

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Speaker 1: the way down, right. So that's one of the that's

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Speaker 1: one of the exceptions, really the exception. So our DNA

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Speaker 1: can be found in twenty three pairs of chromosomes. That's

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Speaker 1: what humans have. Not all animals have that many, so

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Speaker 1: have fewer and etcetera, etcetera. So chromosomes are ribbons of

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Speaker 1: protein essentially have a strand of DNA that are wrapped

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Speaker 1: up in that and within each pair, one chromosome comes

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Speaker 1: from your mother. One chromosome comes from your father, and

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Speaker 1: that's what uh you know, those are the ingredients that

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Speaker 1: come together to create the unique individual that is you

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Speaker 1: and or your identical siblings. Uh So, if we took

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Speaker 1: look at each person's DNA and pay attention to the

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Speaker 1: order of those base pairs, we get something like a

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Speaker 1: DNA fingerprint. It is unique to that person. But we

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Speaker 1: can't just look at one section. We have to look

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Speaker 1: at several different sections also known as loci in the

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Speaker 1: in the parlance of forensics to get a robust fingerprint profile. So,

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Speaker 1: just as we would look at a fingerprint and look

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Speaker 1: for points of comparison to from from a from a

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Speaker 1: fingerprint that we've gathered from a suspect, let's say, and

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Speaker 1: a fingerprint that was left at the scene of a crime,

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Speaker 1: you would have to look at several different points to

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Speaker 1: make sure that all those points correspond to one another

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Speaker 1: to say that there's a match. Same thing with DNA

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Speaker 1: DNA forensics, you would look at several different locations along

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Speaker 1: a strand of DNA and see if the same sequence

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Speaker 1: of nucleotides were appearing on both sets, because that would

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Speaker 1: tell you what are the statistical probabilities of the person

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Speaker 1: that you suspect and the the evidence that was left

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Speaker 1: behind are one and the same, right, Okay, So each

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Speaker 1: time there's a new location, the more loci there are,

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Speaker 1: the more certitude you have that you've got your catch. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you were to say, look at just one location,

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Speaker 1: then that would mean you would have a very you know,

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Speaker 1: there's actually quite a good chance, depending upon the sequence,

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Speaker 1: that coincidence could could completely explain away any any uh

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Speaker 1: duplication there. Right, So it could just be coincidence. It

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Speaker 1: could be that this person just coincidentally has that same sequence.

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Speaker 1: As you add more loci, that becomes less and less likely.

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Speaker 1: Uh FBI. The FBI has thirteen that they suggest the

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Speaker 1: thirteen specific loca that's their standard, and that that results

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Speaker 1: in about a one in a billion chance that if

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Speaker 1: you were to take all thirteen loca and compare the

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Speaker 1: two strength you know, the stuff that was left at

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Speaker 1: the evidence and the suspect or whatever is in the database.

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Speaker 1: If you were to compare the two and they were

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Speaker 1: to come up equal at all thirteen, it's a one

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Speaker 1: in a billion chance that somebody else besides the person

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Speaker 1: you're looking at, possesses that. So seven of the six

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Speaker 1: other people in the world. Yeah, it's like flash forward

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Speaker 1: to that day in court where someone's doing that horrible

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Speaker 1: reference joke and going, so you're saying that there's a chance. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And and honestly, people who are analyzing the stuff, they

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Speaker 1: speak in statistical probabilities, because you cannot say for certain

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Speaker 1: that this person left behind that DNA. You can say, like,

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Speaker 1: what is the statistical probability that they did, And then

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Speaker 1: you look at other elements of the case, right, like saying,

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Speaker 1: all right, can we put the person in that area,

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Speaker 1: because let's say that it's in a small town. Well,

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Speaker 1: if it's a one in a billion chance and you

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Speaker 1: know that the suspect was in that small town, that's

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Speaker 1: pretty darn compelling. Yeah, because why are the chances that

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Speaker 1: the other one of the other six people in the

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Speaker 1: entire world was also in that small town? Not good?

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Speaker 1: So where do we get the DNA evidence from? Well,

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Speaker 1: stuff that people leave behind, Uh, pretty much anything that

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Speaker 1: has cells like living tissue that was left behind our

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Speaker 1: living or stuff where living cells could have been in

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Speaker 1: before being deposited at the crime scene. So stuff like

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Speaker 1: blood or saliva or semen or skin cells, mucus, earwax, sweat. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all of that, All of that can leave behind cells

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Speaker 1: that we can pull DNA from that. What about hair,

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Speaker 1: hair not so much, not not not for traditional DNA

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Speaker 1: hair follicles, Yes, but hair it self is dead. Those

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Speaker 1: are dead cells. So you can do some some DNA analysis,

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Speaker 1: but not the standard kind that most people use in DNA.

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Speaker 1: For instance, Uh, fingernails, same thing, but fingernails often come

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Speaker 1: with other tissue attached to it, and that's where you

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Speaker 1: find the DNA. So if we want to look at

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Speaker 1: the history of people actually saying, hey, why don't we

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Speaker 1: use this this DNA stuff to try and help with investigations,

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Speaker 1: you've got to look back to the nineteen eighties when

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Speaker 1: a brit named Alec Jeffries, who now you may refer

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Speaker 1: to as Professor Sir Alec John Jeffreys f R s okay, good,

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Speaker 1: Professor Sir Alec John Jeffries, FRSH that would be his

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Speaker 1: full title. Now, he hit upon the idea of using

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Speaker 1: DNA as a means of genetic fingerprinting, and he realized

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Speaker 1: that the unique sequences of DNA could serve as a

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Speaker 1: means to link an individual to a scene where DNA

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Speaker 1: samples were found, and his process was first applied in

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Speaker 1: the court system in nineteen eight five. In that case,

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Speaker 1: it was an It was an immigration case. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: like a murder or a rape or something like that.

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Speaker 1: It was to ascertain if the identity of a British

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Speaker 1: boy was actually related to a family who had originally

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Speaker 1: immigrated to the United Kingdom from elsewhere. And he did. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The first time it was used in a criminal case

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Speaker 1: would be seven. That was yeah, not not long after,

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Speaker 1: and that wasn't a case. Uh. The the suspect was

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Speaker 1: named Colin Pitchfork, which is a heck of a name,

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Speaker 1: talking about nominative determinism. Yeah, and he was arrested on

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Speaker 1: suspicion of rape and murder. And he was the first

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Speaker 1: criminal caught as a result of DNA screening. So this

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Speaker 1: was DNA screen that led to his capture. He actually

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Speaker 1: confessed to his crimes, so the DNA didn't lead to

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Speaker 1: his conviction. He confessed, uh, and he received life in

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Speaker 1: prison as a result. So I wanted to talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit before we get into some of the pros

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Speaker 1: and cons about what actually happens with DNA's because you

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Speaker 1: hear or like DNA forensics and you're like what goes

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Speaker 1: into that. Yeah, this is a great thing to contextualize

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Speaker 1: right now, because there are a lot of fans and

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Speaker 1: tech stuff who have probably seen and scoffed at the

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Speaker 1: various entertaining but inaccurate crime shows on order spe CSI,

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Speaker 1: CSI being the big one, like they're there are are

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Speaker 1: forensic specialists who say that c s I is probably

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Speaker 1: one of the most damaging things that have happened to

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Speaker 1: their their career path ever, because people have unrealistic expectations. Specifically,

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Speaker 1: juries have unrealistic expectations, which can hurt a trial case

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Speaker 1: because juries will often one want DNA UH data when

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Speaker 1: it's not even relevant to a case, Like they're like,

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Speaker 1: it's not necessary for them to make a determination in

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Speaker 1: a case, but they want it because it's one of

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Speaker 1: those things that people associate with. Oh, d NA gets

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Speaker 1: you the the locked in answer was that person air?

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Speaker 1: Were they not there? Um, just run the DNA enhance

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Speaker 1: the photograph. I don't see what the problem right exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's pull up one of those three dimensional holographic images

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Speaker 1: and we're just we're just throw every single science fiction

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Speaker 1: CSI trope in there. So early forensic analysis actually used

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Speaker 1: a process called restriction fragment length polymorphism or r f LP,

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Speaker 1: and that involves taking a sample of DNA that has

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Speaker 1: repeating base pairs like they can repeat from anywhere between

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Speaker 1: one and thirty times. They're called variable number tandem repeats

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Speaker 1: or v N t r s. And what they would

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Speaker 1: do is they would dissolve this DNA in an enzyme

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Speaker 1: to break the strand at specific locations along that the DNA.

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Speaker 1: So uh saying like um, when there are this many repetitions,

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Speaker 1: this enzyme is going to break the strand at that point.

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Speaker 1: So that way we can measure how long the strand

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Speaker 1: DNA is in a out point. Yeah. So imagine that

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Speaker 1: you've got like a ribbon, right, and let's say that

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Speaker 1: the ribbon is maybe three ft long, and you're going

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Speaker 1: to cut out a six inch segment of that ribbon.

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Speaker 1: Use this enzyme and it cuts it at the very

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Speaker 1: specific locations along that strand that you want. You do

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Speaker 1: the same thing with the material that was left behind

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Speaker 1: at the scene. So let's say you've got you've got

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Speaker 1: your your DNA sample from your suspect, you've got the

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Speaker 1: sample from the scene, and you compare the two and

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Speaker 1: you're essentially measuring them against each other, like literally measuring

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Speaker 1: the length of them, because it's those repeating pairs that

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Speaker 1: determine how long that segment is. So if the two

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Speaker 1: are about the same length, or actually they are the

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Speaker 1: same length, then you know, or at least you you

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Speaker 1: have a good uh inclination to say that this person

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Speaker 1: was the one who left behind that DNA. That's not

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Speaker 1: really used that frequently anymore, but more frequently now we

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Speaker 1: use a method called short tandem repeat analysis, which is

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Speaker 1: more reliable, more popular. And in this method, analysts take

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Speaker 1: a sample of DNA and they count the repetition of

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Speaker 1: those base pairs along certain locations the loci of that sample.

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Speaker 1: So four or five base pair repeats like where you

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Speaker 1: get you know, your your those nucleo tide pairings I

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Speaker 1: talked about, Sometimes those pairings repeat in a sequence, right,

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Speaker 1: They look for uh, preferably four or five base pair

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Speaker 1: repeat segments, so that way, because it's less likely than

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Speaker 1: if you would have two or three in a row. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the more you have in a row, the less likely

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Speaker 1: you're going to find that exact same repetition in another

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Speaker 1: in an unrelated person's DNA. And these are by the

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Speaker 1: way called tetra nucleotide or penta nucleotide repetitions because of

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Speaker 1: the number tetra being four, penta being five. Um. There

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Speaker 1: those are best in order to indicate an accurate man match.

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Speaker 1: So the FBI, like I said, says, thirteen specific locai

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Speaker 1: to find this, you would do this in thirteen different

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Speaker 1: locations along the strand of DNA. And if you were

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Speaker 1: to find these, uh, these base pair repeats that are

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Speaker 1: identical in both and both samples, that's a really good

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Speaker 1: indication that they belong to the same person. And this

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Speaker 1: this investigation technique, while it is, while it's pretty solid

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Speaker 1: and there's solid science behind it, it doesn't work in

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Speaker 1: every In every case, it's not a silver bullet. And

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Speaker 1: this is kind of some dark territory. Yeah. Yeah. In fact,

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Speaker 1: there there are a lot of reasons why, uh, this

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Speaker 1: can be this can be problematic. Um. One other thing

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about before we get into the

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Speaker 1: challenges specifically things like contamination and chain of possession and

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Speaker 1: chain of custody, thank you, Before we get into that,

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Speaker 1: is to talk about all right, so you know, I

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Speaker 1: gave these these overviews of how they're analyzing the DNA,

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Speaker 1: but One of the big issues here is that often

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Speaker 1: when you're in the field and you're looking for anything

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Speaker 1: that has, you know, remnants of DNA on it, you

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Speaker 1: may not have a very large sample to work with. Right,

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Speaker 1: So you've got a tiny amount of DNA. How do

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Speaker 1: you make sure you can do the tests you need

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Speaker 1: with a tiny little amount? And the answer is you

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Speaker 1: duplicate the crap out of it? What how? Yeah? Okay,

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Speaker 1: so this is this is gonna get super weird because

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna get into molecular biology and chemistry but starting

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Speaker 1: and I want to let okay, So they use a

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Speaker 1: process called polymerase chain reaction or PCR to duplicate a

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Speaker 1: specific region of the DNA in a sample. So this

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Speaker 1: process was developed in three by Carrie Mollis who actually

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Speaker 1: he won a Nobel Prize in chemistry for his work

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Speaker 1: in this field. And what they'll do is they'll take

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Speaker 1: samples of DNA. They'll take a string of DNA, so

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Speaker 1: you've got your double helix, right, and then you heat

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Speaker 1: it to between ninety four and ninety six degrees celsius

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Speaker 1: for a few minutes. Yeah, so it's almost boiling um

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Speaker 1: for a few minutes. And this is to d nature

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Speaker 1: the sample, which means that the DNA straightens out, so

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Speaker 1: it's no longer twisted ladder. It's a ladder, and the

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Speaker 1: rungs split apart, So those base pairs split and you

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Speaker 1: get two strands two half strands of d N A alright,

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Speaker 1: So then you end up changing the temperature. You lower

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Speaker 1: it to between fifty and sixty five degrees celsius for

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Speaker 1: a few minutes, so that first one only takes a

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Speaker 1: few minutes to so you lower it down to fifty

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Speaker 1: to six degrees celsius for a few more minutes. That

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Speaker 1: allows the left and right primers. These are small sections

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Speaker 1: of DNA that have matching nucleotides to the two separated

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Speaker 1: pieces that you've created. Think of them as almost like

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Speaker 1: half zippers. So you've got the right and left half

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Speaker 1: of a zipper on either like that. They're spreading out

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Speaker 1: there there there's apart from one another. You've got a

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Speaker 1: small section that interlocks with each side. Because that you've

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Speaker 1: got the the complementary base pairs. Uh, those will then

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Speaker 1: connect to those sections. Now that's only a tiny little

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Speaker 1: part overall part of the full DNA, but um they

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Speaker 1: then raise the temperature to seventy two degrees celsius for

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Speaker 1: a few minutes to allow the tach polyme race. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is the material that can then build and synthesize

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Speaker 1: new DNA to the two separate strands. So if you

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Speaker 1: think about it like a video game. All right, so

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Speaker 1: you get your little you get your little segment that's

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Speaker 1: locked onto the half ladder of DNA, the stuff you

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Speaker 1: started off with in the first place. At one end

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Speaker 1: of that, imagine that you get a little bitty blob,

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Speaker 1: all right, that little big blob just builds the corresponding

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Speaker 1: rungs and goes down the line rebuilding the d N

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Speaker 1: A and it doesn't you know, there's one on both sides.

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Speaker 1: There's a primer on each half strand of DNA. So

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Speaker 1: at the end of this process, you end up with

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Speaker 1: two strands of DNA. Okay, I see, now you started

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Speaker 1: with one, but because you've used this molecular biology slash

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Speaker 1: chemistry approach, you've been able to duplicate it. And then

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Speaker 1: you repeat that process. So you do it again. Those

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Speaker 1: two become four, the four become a. You see how

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Speaker 1: this expands very rapidly. You do it over and over,

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Speaker 1: so that way even if you started with a very

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Speaker 1: small sample of DNA, by the end, you've got plenty

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Speaker 1: to work with, so you don't have to worry about

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Speaker 1: you know, we had one little drop of sweat at

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Speaker 1: the scene and and we blew it on on a

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Speaker 1: test that didn't work out. You don't have to worry

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Speaker 1: about that. I'm sorry to be like, uh, emotionally or

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Speaker 1: mentally a nine year old here, Jonathan, but can we

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Speaker 1: can we make it a booker? I just love picturing

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Speaker 1: us as cops or like, no, no one knows who

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Speaker 1: stole the vus. We have only this single. The Mysterious

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Speaker 1: Picker has struck again. Yeah, yeah, okay, so you're in Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well we weren't talking about urine. We were talking about

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Speaker 1: the boogers. All right, you got me. But this is

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Speaker 1: but this is a great that that's a great explanation

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Speaker 1: of how this occurs. Because given that you're essentially destroying

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Speaker 1: the evidence every time that you you conduct this kind

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Speaker 1: of this this kind of investigation, than being able to

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Speaker 1: reproduce it is fundamental. Yeah, it's absolutely key because again,

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Speaker 1: if you do not have very much of that material,

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Speaker 1: then you really have to be careful. And there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of things that can complicate this, and that's

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Speaker 1: kind of where we were leading to a little bit earlier.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of reasons why you cannot just

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Speaker 1: say that DNA forensics is going to solve, you know,

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Speaker 1: the crimes out there as long as someone's left something behind.

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Speaker 1: Because even though it's versatile, even though we have this

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Speaker 1: amazing capability, life is weird and things can go wrong,

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Speaker 1: and they can go wrong either accidentally or on purpose.

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Speaker 1: So one thing that can happen is multiple people could

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Speaker 1: be involved in a an incident crime of some sort,

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Speaker 1: and so the more people who are involved, the harder

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Speaker 1: it is to be absolutely certain that the DNA samples

401
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Speaker 1: you're working with all linked to a specific individual. In fact,

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Speaker 1: there are currently some changes in the way DNA can

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Speaker 1: be handled UH in cases court cases actually to the

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Speaker 1: point where it's in the legal case since UH in

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Speaker 1: Texas and other places as well, and so forensics labs

406
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Speaker 1: are having to put in greater restrictions because forensics analysts

407
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Speaker 1: would go into testify in court cases and say there's

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Speaker 1: a one in a billion chance this belonged to someone else.

409
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Speaker 1: But if you start to factor in that there is

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Speaker 1: more than one person's DNA found at the scene and

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Speaker 1: the contamination issues that result from that. Then people would

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Speaker 1: say like, all right, well, really it's more like one

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Speaker 1: in a thousand or one in a hundred. And then

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Speaker 1: at this point you might say, well, the DNA evidence

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Speaker 1: is not strong enough for it to be a compelling

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Speaker 1: argument for the guilt or innocence of a person, because

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Speaker 1: there's enough like if you're in a really dense urban

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Speaker 1: area and you say there's a one in a hundred

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Speaker 1: chance that's you know, it's it's hard to say that

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Speaker 1: shouldn't introduce reasonable doubt that it doesn't meet the burden

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Speaker 1: of reasonable doubts, But and then you have to try

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Speaker 1: to chase down all the other possibilities. And that's that's

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Speaker 1: if there are multiple people involved. But even if there's

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Speaker 1: not multiple people involved, obviously you have to be very

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Speaker 1: cognizant of the possibility of contamination. Yeah, okay, we we

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Speaker 1: can talk about this a little bit because we this

427
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Speaker 1: is something that you might not see on Hollywood as

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Speaker 1: often as you see it in real life. Yes, actually, Jonathan,

429
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Speaker 1: so let's say you know the let's say you're the detective,

430
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: right and Noel is the prosecutor, and I'm the I'm

431
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: the JABRONI at the scene. You was supposed to pick

432
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 1: up the stuff and bring it, right Yeah, So you're

433
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: you're your job is to actually go in and collect

434
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 1: the evidence before anyone else can go through that area,

435
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: right yeah, because as soon as you introduce other people,

436
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: then you've introduced other DNA that could be left at

437
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 1: the scene. But I've been having a I've been having

438
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: a crazy time work lately, and I've been cutting corners

439
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: a little and everybody knows. Nobody said anything yet because

440
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: it's not a big deal yet. But here's what happens. Uh,

441
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: while I'm on while I collect the evidence, let's see,

442
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 1: I get blood samples, and I'm on the way back,

443
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 1: I stop it cook out because my diet is as

444
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 1: much of a train wreck as my life and I'm

445
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: not and because i'm personally I shake hands with six

446
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: people as I'm walking back into our building. I don't

447
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: wash my hands. And I also kept the sample for

448
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: some reason in the bag from cookout. Yeah, that would

449
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: there there might be a chance that that was encountered

450
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 1: some form of contamination from the scene to the point

451
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: where you get to the lab and then you you

452
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: run the d NA. Yeah, right, Well, clearly the suspect

453
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: was a roast pig, right, Yeah, clearly suspect was a

454
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: roast pig. Or even more dangerously, clearly the suspect, uh,

455
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 1: the suspect maybe someone that already pings in our database

456
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: who just got out of prison for grand theft auto

457
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: and now works out of cookout. Yeah. Yeah, that's I

458
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: mean that that's a you know, it's it seems like

459
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 1: it's a convoluted example except for the fact that this

460
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 1: is the sort of stuff that can happen r Yeah,

461
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: it's not. I would say it's possible, but that one

462
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: is not plausible. No, no, But but the example you

463
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: give does show that there has to be great care

464
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 1: are the the people who come in to collect the

465
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: evidence have to do so before there can be a

466
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: lot of disturbance of the crime scene. Because the more

467
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,959
Speaker 1: disturbance there there is, like I said, the more chances

468
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: other people will leave behind DNA skin cells or or

469
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: um sweat or blood or whatever it might be. Um

470
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: might be that there were other people who were involved

471
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: in it who have no or you know, people who

472
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: maybe the person who stumbled upon the scene left something

473
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: behind without intending to like cutting a hand on a

474
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 1: on a piece of glass or something, letting themselves into

475
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: see what's happened. Yeah, even something as simple as that.

476
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: So there's there's that you have to be aware of

477
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: contamination there. You also have to be aware of contamination

478
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 1: through the moment you've collected it, all the way through

479
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: the testing phase. So that's where the chain of custody

480
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 1: comes in. By the way, if you ever see people

481
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: like putting stuff in plastic bags in order to preserve it,

482
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: that's pretty much a fiction because play stick will will

483
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 1: contain moisture, right anything, Any moisture that's in the bag

484
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 1: will stay there, and moisture can can degrade DNA samples.

485
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 1: So usually they're actually put in paper, so it's usually

486
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: a paper envelope or a paper bag that's quickly labeled.

487
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: And then there's this chain of custody that must be

488
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: documented through the entire process until it gets to the lab,

489
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 1: and then at the lab. Even at the lab, they

490
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 1: have to be very careful with the equipment they're using.

491
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: They have to make certain that it's completely clean. That

492
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: way you don't end up cross contaminating from a previous

493
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: test into your current test. That's happened a couple of times.

494
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: There actually been a couple of cases. Yeah, there was

495
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: a case where, uh, there was a victim of a

496
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: crime and there was another crime that was committed, and

497
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: the initial DNA test results of the crime that was

498
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: committed came back with the victim from the other crime

499
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: as a positive. And they realized that the reason why

500
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: that was happening was that there were two different DNA

501
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: tests that had been performed, and the victim from the

502
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,479
Speaker 1: first one that their DNA had not been completely cleaned

503
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 1: out of the system before they started doing the next test,

504
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,719
Speaker 1: and so they were getting these false positives, and they

505
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: knew it couldn't have been the victim because the victim

506
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: was the victim was victimized, the victim was not capable

507
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: of committing that crime. Um, so it was already like

508
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: one of those things that proved that there was an

509
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: issue here. And in almost every case, in fact, I'll

510
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: go ahead and say the vast majority of cases, this

511
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: has to do with a person either mistakenly or purposefully

512
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: not following procedure or not making certain that that everything

513
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: is on the up and up. Rather than the process

514
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: itself being a failure, it's it's a human error, either

515
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: intentional or otherwise introduced typically um and so another thing

516
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: that you have to worry about is whether or not

517
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: someone has purposefully introduced DNA. There have been cases where

518
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: in order to try and either uh to hide one's

519
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: involvement in a crime or to implicate someone else specifically

520
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: in a crime, people have left behind samples of DNA

521
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: in order to throw people, throw investigators off the track.

522
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: Whether again, whether it is to protect yourself, Like let's

523
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: say that you committed the crime, and you leave behind

524
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: the DNA of you know, your your your hated cousin,

525
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: so that your cousin takes the rapid you don't, or

526
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: you're an investigator and you're like, well, there's this really

527
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: awful guy, and we want to get him for this crime.

528
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: We really like him for this crime, but we don't

529
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: have the direct evidence for him. However, I do have

530
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: this DNA from a separate incident. I can leave this

531
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: behind the crime scene collected, and therefore we can finally

532
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: get the guy. I'm pretty sure he did it anyway,

533
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: you know, solid solid stick, Steve four percent sure. So

534
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: that's again, this is not something that happens all the time.

535
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: It's not not something that's even prevalent, but it's it's

536
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: one of those things that you have to be aware of.

537
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: That's why these things like the chain of custody is

538
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: so important to maintain. I have a question, sure, uh,

539
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: and I don't know if I'm jumping ahead here, please ask.

540
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: But I was kind of foreshadowing this when we're asking

541
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: about hair follicles. So the it sounds like the home

542
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: run for h for DNA testing would be something, as

543
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: you said, containing living cells, so blood, bodily fluid, stuff

544
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: like that. But if that's a home run, the kind

545
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: of stuff that people are much more likely to leave

546
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: behind would be things like hair follicles or flakes of skin.

547
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,959
Speaker 1: You know, So, what what's the deal with that? How?

548
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: How does that work? It's still the same same process

549
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: in the sense that these are things that can leave

550
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: behind traces of DNA like as long as as long

551
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: as they For instance, let's say that you have you're

552
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: at a murder scene scene and you are you are investigating.

553
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: One of the things you're going to look for are

554
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: traces of any skin under the victim's fingernails, because that

555
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: that's a an indication that the victim fought back against

556
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 1: his or her murderer and may in fact have samples

557
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: of that skin underneath his or her fingernails, And so

558
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: you can collect that and then do the same process

559
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: I was talking about. You can extract the DNA from

560
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: those cells and then do the same process to duplicate

561
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: that DNA and then run it either against suspects DNA

562
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: or or use a database. We mentioned the databases briefly

563
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: a little bit about Yeah, let's do that, because there

564
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: are a couple of different ones. There. There are state databases,

565
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: there's a national database, and then there's the FBI's database.

566
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: Uh So these are all databases that continue in the

567
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: DNA information of various people who have been booked for

568
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: specific types of crimes. It's not every crime. Don't worry,

569
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: the FBI does not have your genetic blueprint because one

570
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: time you purposely parked in a handicap spot. Although Jonathan

571
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: and Nolan I do judge you for that, Yes, we

572
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: think you should definitely never do that. If you don't,

573
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: if you do not have a the handicap label, uh,

574
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: then don't park in that spot. But now these are

575
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: specifically pretty serious crimes where that's really the only way

576
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: that they that that the state or federal government is

577
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: allowed to to collect a DNA sample from you to

578
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: use in this database. When they've got a lot of people,

579
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: I've got some statistics here to yeah, please hit me. Okay,

580
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: So let's let's go with the big one, right, Okay,

581
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: The big one here in the States is the National

582
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: DNA Index or in d I S. That's the that's

583
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: the feed's that's the FBI. It contains a little under

584
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: twelve million offender profiles, specifically eleven million, eight hundred nine

585
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty seven. It has to a little over

586
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: two million R s D profiles and a little over

587
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: six hundred thousand forensic profiles. That's as of June. If

588
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: you visit the FBI's website, you can learn a lot

589
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 1: about their biometric analysis, which does also contain print work.

590
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 1: It's it's sort of a mixtape of all the stuff

591
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: that they could use to investigate. And here's the thing

592
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 1: you can do if you live in the US and

593
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: you would like to feel a little bit less comfortable

594
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: each day, Okay, it's there's a breakdown by state, so

595
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: you can see how many offender profiles are are located

596
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,879
Speaker 1: in your state. Here in Georgia. In our case, it's

597
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: two hundred nine thousand, nine hundred and thirty eight. Considering

598
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: the population of Georgia, that is a significant number. Right,

599
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: you can see the forensics profiles the arrestees. You can

600
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: also see the number of investigations aided in labs participated. Now,

601
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: one of the things I want to point out is

602
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: that this also goes back into the drawbacks or the

603
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: challenges of forensics, is that forensic labs can get really

604
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: backed up with this stuff, Like the backlogs can be

605
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: can be crazy because while I I you know, I

606
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: mentioned that process just for duplicating the DNA, that can

607
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: take a couple of hours to do that process, and

608
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: then of course you've got all the cleaning of the

609
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 1: material that has to happen in order for you to

610
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: be able to use it again. That's not that doesn't

611
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: even involve the actual analysis of the DNA that tends

612
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: to require a forensic specialist to do this. It's not

613
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: like it's all automated, although there are more and more

614
00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 1: automated systems that help, but generally speaking, it's it's sort

615
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: of an augmented approach where you still have a forensic

616
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 1: expert do the the look you know they're doing. They're

617
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: looking at the DNA to look at those base pairs

618
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 1: and actually makes certain visually that they are in fact identical.

619
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,919
Speaker 1: So it takes a lot of time. And meanwhile, while

620
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 1: you're doing all this, more samples are coming in. So

621
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: there's a backlog that starts to build up, and depending

622
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: upon the area and the number of labs that are available,

623
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: it might be a very serious backlog. And there was

624
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: also a pre existing backlog because if we look at

625
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: how recently this occurred, and off air we talked about this.

626
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: In the course of your research, you send in some

627
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 1: great stuff about cold cases. Yeah, so there was already

628
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,800
Speaker 1: a built in backlog for this technology, and they're already

629
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: been cases of people who were in jail for years, decades, Yeah,

630
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: who were innocent. Yeah, yeah, where the DNA evidence ended

631
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 1: up clear daring them like it could not possibly have

632
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: been that person. Um. And you know, actually, that's when

633
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: I say that there are some serious restrictions in tax

634
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: us about this multi person DNA approach. It's specifically so

635
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: that there is every attempt to make certain that innocent

636
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: people aren't incarcerated there is a huge obviously, there's a

637
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: huge pressure on law enforcement to to assign guilt and

638
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: uh and bring somebody in for particularly awful crimes. And

639
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,399
Speaker 1: there's an enormous pressure because of course, the community wants

640
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: to feel safe, they want to feel that something is

641
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: being done that has to be balanced against making sure

642
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 1: you get the right person. Yeah. Yeah, because we know

643
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 1: that we live in an age of instant gratification. Yeah,

644
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 1: things should be right immediately and right the first time,

645
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: and right now and right now. Yes, the three rights.

646
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, the wheels of justice. How's the old saying,

647
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: go man? They grind slow but exceedingly fine, Yes, as

648
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: opposed to go round and round. Yes, the wheels in

649
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: the bus. I was thinking, you know, we would be here,

650
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 1: terrible lawyers. Yeah, we would be Actually, I know I

651
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: would be. I remember participating in a mock trial in

652
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: school and not knowing what the heck I was doing?

653
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: What was your what was your rule? I was defense

654
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: and it was terrible. It was terrible. I did not

655
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: want to do it. I was I was. I was

656
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: bullied into it and I it was awful. I can

657
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,760
Speaker 1: see you doing like a judge or maybe a bailiff,

658
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: who's over it, like, sit down? Yeah, no, I was.

659
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: Uh my my client would have gotten the chair. It

660
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: was terrible for a very minor offense too, That's how

661
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: bad I was. So anyway, getting back into DNA forensics,

662
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: Uh so, yeah, you mentioned cold cases, I've got one

663
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 1: specific one I'll mention, and it's not it's one that

664
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,479
Speaker 1: has not been um scene to completion yet. In other words,

665
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: there there hasn't been a conviction yet in this case.

666
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: But it does show how how far reaching this can go.

667
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 1: So in December, the body of a young lady named

668
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: Crystal Lynn bez bes lana Wich was found along the

669
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: Provo River in Utah. She was seventeen years old when

670
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: she was killed, and she had been sexually assaulted and murdered. Uh,

671
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: perhaps bludgeoned to death with rocks. That was what the

672
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: police believed at the time. Now, the original investigator of

673
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: the crime, it was a guy who became the the

674
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 1: deputy sheriff, I believe, but Todd Bonner decided to continue

675
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: investigation even long after all the leads were drying up,

676
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: like they just could not find any leads. Uh, and

677
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: in a lab was able to extract what's called touch

678
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: d n A. It was left behind on a granite

679
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: rock that the police had believed was used in killing

680
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: this young lady. And the lab used a vacuum instrument

681
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: to pull this touch DNA off the granite rock and

682
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: then put it through this analysis process and the results

683
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: ended up matching DNA from a suspect that people were

684
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: interested in but had no direct connection to the crime.

685
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 1: The suspect's name was Joseph Michael Simpson, and they got

686
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: the sample DNA from a discarded cigarette butt he had

687
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: tossed aside a cigarette but the cops scooped it up,

688
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: they tested the DNA, they found a match. They arrested

689
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 1: him back in Uh. He has a previous conviction for murder.

690
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: He had actually been out on parole for eight months

691
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: before before Brasilanta, which is death. Yeah, so he had

692
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 1: been in jail for several years but got paroled and

693
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: then uh, eight months later Brisilana, which was dead, and

694
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: he's been linked to this and arrested for the crime.

695
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: Now that being said, the last I checked into this case,

696
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: you know, that was back in the last I checked

697
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 1: into this case. It's still not it still hasn't been tried.

698
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 1: There's been request for more evidence on the prosecution side,

699
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: including uh, an actual DNA sample from Simpson himself to

700
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: confirm that the findings are in fact accurate, so in

701
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: other words, not just from the cigarette, but but from

702
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 1: Simpson in custody. And then there's also a request to

703
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: get a print sample because of a partial print that

704
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 1: was left behind on the victim herself. So uh, this

705
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 1: case is not one that's like cut and dry and

706
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: it's definitive, but it does indicate that this approach is

707
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: able to start pulling up connections that otherwise would have

708
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 1: been unlikely or even impossible to make. And this brings

709
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: us to this is just a sidebar, Okay, this brings

710
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: us to a dangerous thing. And you know, of course

711
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: that I who can sometimes be a cartoon of myself

712
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,879
Speaker 1: and am required to mention this. What do you think

713
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: about the idea of blanket DNA sampling? They're taking every citizen.

714
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: You know, some prominent members of the UK legal system

715
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: have advocated this for all British citizens, and Kuwait is

716
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: doing the same thing. Well, let me put it to

717
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: you this way. Okay. There's always the argument that some

718
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,399
Speaker 1: people will make that if you're not doing anything wrong,

719
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,359
Speaker 1: then what do you have to fear? Right, Well, here's

720
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,720
Speaker 1: what you have to fear. I'm gonna tell you. Okay,

721
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 1: So there have been at least a couple of companies

722
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:48,240
Speaker 1: that have shown that through a little bit of your DNA,

723
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 1: they can do a very similar process to duplicating DNA,

724
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 1: which means that they can synthesize your DNA, which means

725
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: then that if your DNA can be synthesized, it could

726
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,359
Speaker 1: be cre aided and dropped somewhere. And you had never

727
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: been to that place. Oh wow, So all of a

728
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: sudden you get a summons for some horrendous crime in

729
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,879
Speaker 1: uh Iceland or something. You say, I've never been Yeah,

730
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 1: this is the weirdest thing because I've never been there. Like,

731
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: but this is match to your DNA. There's a one

732
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: and a billion chance that someone else did this, um

733
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: and you you know that's that's a thing like, that's

734
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: we're in a world where technologically it is possible to

735
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: do this. Now is that likely to happen? So it's

736
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: definitely like and it's in the realm of possibility but

737
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: not plausibility. However, as long as it's possible, then I

738
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:45,359
Speaker 1: would argue that it is too invasive to demand from

739
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 1: your population that everyone submit to d N A like

740
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 1: submitting a DNA sample. Yeah. Yeah, what about let's take

741
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: a step further. What about the idea that there would

742
00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 1: be what about the idea that this stuff, which is

743
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 1: you set a blueprint in some ways. Also it's it's

744
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: similar to Metadataeah okay, let's I can see where you're saying.

745
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: So the ability then to build this enormous sample size

746
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 1: let's say the entire population of the UK. I think

747
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 1: right now they're only at maybe five of the population

748
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: because you have to get you know, you have to

749
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:26,720
Speaker 1: get pinched. So if they had this enormous sample size,

750
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: then they could start comparing and collating and analyzing this

751
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: stuff on a larger scale such that they would be

752
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: able to possibly again possibly not plausibly, uh predict um,

753
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: not epigenetic trends, but but predict the likelihood of someone

754
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: incurring a certain disease or something. Well, we're getting into

755
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: more of a genomic sequencing at that point. Yeah, we're

756
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 1: getting into gatica. Yeah. Yeah, when you're when you're getting

757
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: into genomic sequencing, it's it's much further. It's it's a

758
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: much longer process because again, this is very close to

759
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: when they call a genetic fingerprinting. It makes sense to

760
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: call it that because you're really just looking at the

761
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: physical resemblance of two strands, right, Like like two drawings,

762
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: and there are two drawings of ladders, and if the

763
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:19,320
Speaker 1: two drawings of ladders are the same, then you know

764
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: you've got a one and a billion chance of it

765
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 1: not being that person. So that's a lot different than

766
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 1: going through and identifying things like which genes do what

767
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: I mean, we still don't even know, right, So in

768
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 1: case you guys are not terribly familiar with with genetics,

769
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: the genes can be pretty complicated things. Think about like

770
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: a giant switchboard, right, You've got an enormous switchboard and

771
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,800
Speaker 1: there's like a thousand switches on little metal toggle switches,

772
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 1: the classic updown toggle switches, right, unlabeled that you have

773
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: a bank of lightbulbs in front of you, also unlabeled.

774
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: You flip one switch and one light bulb comes on.

775
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: You flip a set can switch. That lightbulb stays on.

776
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 1: Three other lightbulbs come on. You turn off the first switch.

777
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: Only one lightbulb goes off, and you start thinking, Okay, wait,

778
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: what how is this real? Well, that's the thing about

779
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 1: genes is that they it's not so simple as to

780
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: say that this one gene is in charge of this

781
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 1: one trait. It's it can be much more complicated, where

782
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 1: it's a a selection of genes that some are active,

783
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: some are not active. Um. So because of that, even

784
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: if you've got all the DNA from an entire population,

785
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,760
Speaker 1: you might be able to say, well, this one person

786
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:40,720
Speaker 1: suffered from a particular inherited disease. Let's examine the DNA

787
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: and then compare it to other people who have suffered

788
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 1: from that same disease and see where the points of

789
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: comparison are. But that is, I mean, it's a monumental

790
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 1: task because you've just it's beyond taking thirteen points along

791
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 1: a strand and comparing the them against a second sample. Right,

792
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 1: It's it's a it's another it's almost like a a

793
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: an order of magnitude greater in the amount of effort

794
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 1: that you have to take. Yeah, that's a really good

795
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: way to put it. And that that a squatches some

796
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,760
Speaker 1: of my apien predictions. I do have one other question,

797
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: all right, So we talked about in identical twins. Right there,

798
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:25,959
Speaker 1: there is another there's another possibility where a person could

799
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 1: get pinched with the wrong DNA. Are you going with

800
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: a clone? What's your Well, there's a there's another possibility. Wait,

801
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 1: maybe not. It's not the same as identical twins, but

802
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 1: it throws another monkey wrench into this. Uh chimeras. Oh interesting? Yeah, okay,

803
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 1: Uh all right, Well I want to hear your thought

804
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 1: process on this, because this is not something I specifically

805
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 1: looked into, because chimerism is not that it's super rare. Yeah,

806
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 1: it's not that it's like an episode of SPU for

807
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 1: that time. Um, and so yeah, it's true though it

808
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 1: sounds crazy. And you guys talked about this on one

809
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: of your other shows, right yeah, and Forward Thinking we

810
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: talked about chimeras, and yeah, it was one of those

811
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: things where where the more you talked about it, the

812
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 1: more the more like unsure I was that I was

813
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: reflecting the reality because it seems so weird. It seems

814
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 1: very very strange. So it's a person composed of two

815
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 1: genetically distinct types of cells, So you might have Um,

816
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: I think the first time I was discovered it was

817
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,320
Speaker 1: related to blood type, right, yeah, I believe so I

818
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 1: believe you're correct, So somebody had more than one blood type,

819
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: which is already so trippy to me. I just felt

820
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 1: like to do the to do justice to this topic,

821
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 1: we would have to mention that that is one of

822
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: those very very exceedingly rare cases where DNA testing is

823
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,399
Speaker 1: not a and a silver bullet. Yeah, so you could

824
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: in a bizarre like this is almost like a science

825
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 1: fiction novel approach. Yeah, like to the point where you're like,

826
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: for this to work, so many things would have to

827
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 1: fall in line perfectly that you might as well say

828
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: it's impossible. But imagine that you have a scenario in

829
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: which you have a chimera and DNA is left behind

830
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 1: at the scene, but it's only one type of DNA somehow,

831
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: and then the sample they get is somehow just the

832
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: other type of DNA, thus exonerating your your perpetrator. Um. Practically, Yeah,

833
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:39,959
Speaker 1: there's no, that's impossible. The only way that that could

834
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: really affect it is if there were somehow a chimera

835
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: on the involved in this scene and it became a

836
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 1: contaminating factor, because then they would say, well, aside from

837
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 1: the victim, it seemed it appears that there were three

838
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 1: people here. Yes, that that would certainly, that would certainly

839
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,320
Speaker 1: cause problems, right, that would certainly cause confusion in the

840
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 1: whole process. But it's also so rare for someone to

841
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 1: be a criminal. I think it's already yeah, begging, beggaring

842
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 1: belief right right, like like like you you already have.

843
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:11,879
Speaker 1: Like if you think of the population of people who

844
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,280
Speaker 1: have some form of of that, you know, the chimera

845
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 1: DNA thing going on, and then within that population, what

846
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 1: percentage of those people are our master criminal? Yeah, are

847
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,800
Speaker 1: are committing these sort of crimes. It's got to be

848
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: pretty pretty small number. I'm sorry, man, I'm sorry. I

849
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 1: just had to bring it up. No, No, it's fine, Like, yeah,

850
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:38,839
Speaker 1: it's it's you know, but what if So one other

851
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 1: thing I wanted to talk about. I almost forgot about this.

852
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,959
Speaker 1: So did you read up about the um the technology

853
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 1: of reconstructing a person's face using just DNA material, and you,

854
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:56,439
Speaker 1: like you, you had sent that to me off there,

855
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 1: and I was initially skeptical when I was looking at it.

856
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:05,240
Speaker 1: So it's it's called Snapshot, and it's from a company

857
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 1: called Parabond and Snapshot what it's what it attempts to

858
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,800
Speaker 1: do is take the information from a DNA sample and

859
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 1: create a essentially a police sketch of a person, a

860
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: three dimensional uh representation of what a person might look like. Now,

861
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: when I say might look like, you've got to be

862
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 1: super generous with this because if all you have is

863
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,919
Speaker 1: the DNA, if that's all you have, like, you don't

864
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: have any any knowledge of what the person's face looks like, otherwise,

865
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: how old they are, they're high, or anything. What you'll

866
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,760
Speaker 1: be able to do is probably approximate their skin tone,

867
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 1: their ethnicity, their gender at least their biological gender, the

868
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 1: their hair color, their eye color, that kind of stuff,

869
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 1: whether or not they have freckles, that kind of thing.

870
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,319
Speaker 1: But beyond that, you're not gonna be able to tell

871
00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: their age. You're not gonna tell their high or weight,

872
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: So you can't you can't tell how heavy said or

873
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: thin they may be. How you don't know how much

874
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 1: how much like what sort of wrinkles would you need

875
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: to add in if they're you know, if they're older. Yeah,

876
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 1: you wouldn't know any of that, uh, And you wouldn't

877
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 1: know their skull shape, Like you wouldn't know their face shape,

878
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: right like the DNA wouldn't. So so what you can

879
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 1: do is create like a very generic looking person but

880
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 1: with those traits. So it may not be so useful

881
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 1: in the sense of using this as a means of

882
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 1: trying to track down the suspect. There may not come

883
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: in handy. Where it might help is if you have

884
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: unidentified remains. So let's say you've found the remains of

885
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: a person and you're able to extract some DNA information,

886
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 1: but you're not able to ascertain the identity of this

887
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 1: this person. Uh, this would allow you once if you

888
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: have the person's like skull, like if if that's part

889
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 1: of the remains that are left behind, you then know

890
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 1: at least the dimensions of the skull. And they're also

891
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 1: other technologies that allow people to approximate what a person's

892
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 1: face looks like based upon their skull shape. So combining

893
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 1: those two where you you say, all right, this is

894
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: what they're they probably look like based upon the the

895
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 1: shape of their skull. Plus here are their characteristics that

896
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 1: they had according to their DNA, then you might be

897
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 1: able to create a few different looks for that particular

898
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: individual that might help in identifying who that person was. Yeah,

899
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: and that that I think is the most tremendous possibility

900
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:38,320
Speaker 1: of this technology, absolutely right, because we're seeing already that

901
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 1: the study of DNA and and the application of this

902
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 1: sort of science has fundamentally changed the nature of crime

903
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 1: and investigation. Yeah, to the point where again it can

904
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 1: affect juries, uh and there, and their perception of a

905
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 1: case to the so so it can be a frustration,

906
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 1: right like if you have if you have other lines

907
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: of evidence that clearly indicate that the person accused of

908
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 1: the crime has committed it, but because there was there

909
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 1: was no DNA evidence, or maybe there was some problem

910
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:17,919
Speaker 1: with the chain of custody, that can create enough doubt

911
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 1: in a jury's mind. A jury that's been conditioned to

912
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:22,879
Speaker 1: believe the DNA evidence is the end all be all

913
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:25,839
Speaker 1: that it can it can cause problems in that case.

914
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 1: This is this is the thing is that human beings

915
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 1: were messy, right Like we're not just messy and that

916
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 1: we leave DNA behind. We're messy in the way we

917
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 1: try to process information. And so sometimes you know, when

918
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:42,839
Speaker 1: you go through an entire process of when a crime

919
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 1: is committed, to figuring out who potentially did it, to

920
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 1: apprehending that person, to then trying that person for the crime,

921
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 1: to then deciding whether or not they're guilty. I mean,

922
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: there's so much stuff going on through that whole process that,

923
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: you know, honestly, I think we should have a whole

924
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 1: podcast devoted to it, you know what. I think that's

925
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: a great idea. Yeah, I mean I'm not talking about

926
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,320
Speaker 1: an episode. I mean we gotta have a podcast, like

927
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 1: an entire show, a show specifically dedicated to this kind

928
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:18,399
Speaker 1: of stuff. Yeah, you know, I completely agree, and we'd

929
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 1: like to hear from you if you agree as well.

930
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:24,800
Speaker 1: You if you like this stuff, you can check out Oh, Jonathan,

931
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:26,760
Speaker 1: I want to put you on the spot here because

932
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 1: as he puts you on the show, would you like

933
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 1: to come, uh look at some stuff like this with

934
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 1: Matt Nolan I over on stuff they don't want you

935
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 1: to know. Yeah? Absolutely, all right, certainly. Okay, Well you

936
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: agreed on air, so that counts. That's like a pinky problem. Here.

937
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,800
Speaker 1: Here's the thing is that if you were to pull

938
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:47,320
Speaker 1: the how Stuff Works podcasters and ask them, would you

939
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:51,800
Speaker 1: be interested in occasionally hosting a show about crime? I

940
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 1: think an overwhelming majority of us would say yes. Like,

941
00:55:57,840 --> 00:55:59,919
Speaker 1: here's the thing. It's the quiet ones you gotta worry

942
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:06,439
Speaker 1: about right, Scott, Benjamin crazy interested in this stuff, so interested. Yeah,

943
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: and uh, he'll be coming up on your show a

944
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 1: little bit later, right, Yeah, I'm gonna have him on

945
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about Volkswagen and the scandal

946
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 1: about Volkswagen's method of cheating emissions testing. So we're gonna

947
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: we're gonna go into great detail. That's gonna be in

948
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks, so you guys keep an ear

949
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 1: out for that. But uh so it'll be crime, It'll

950
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 1: just be corporate crime. So Ben, thank you so much

951
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 1: for coming on the show. Obviously, guys, you gotta check

952
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: out stuff they don't want you to know. Check out

953
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 1: car stuff, check out all the videos that then works

954
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 1: on brain stuff, what the stuff. These are great shows,

955
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 1: and uh you know, if you are not familiar with them,

956
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 1: check them out because if you like this, you're gonna

957
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,400
Speaker 1: love those. That's that's a guarantee. You're too kind of Johnathan.

958
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 1: I appreciate it immensely. I'm glad I grew a little

959
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 1: bit of face scruff so you can't see me blushing.

960
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 1: I hope that if you are checking out and enjoying

961
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,840
Speaker 1: tech stuff, that you are also checking out some of

962
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 1: Jonathan's other work. We we work together on a number

963
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 1: of weird not just to get rich quick schemes, but

964
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 1: those two and our hair brained inventions. Yeah, our boy.

965
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: Let me tell you. If we can boil an egg,

966
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 1: a six minute egg two and a half minutes, it's good.

967
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 1: We've gotten Yeah, it's still poisonous, but yeah, okay, yeah,

968
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: you can't eat it, but you can boil it. So

969
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 1: you can also check out I really um, I personally

970
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 1: am a fan of forward thinking, both the video and

971
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 1: the audio series. Uh and it is worth your time

972
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 1: if you ever want to laugh your keystro off. You

973
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,919
Speaker 1: can also check out some of Jonathan's work on brain

974
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 1: stuff and what the Stuff. Yeah, you can't even watch

975
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 1: us be twins? Oh man, you might. You might not

976
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 1: want to, you know what. I still like it. It

977
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 1: is very cheesy. I mean, I'm you know, if you

978
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 1: find cheesy humor to be totally cringeworthy, then you probably

979
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 1: don't want to see it. But if you want to

980
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 1: hear me make like the worst James Bond villain style

981
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 1: accident possible. Oh I love it all right, guys. If

982
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 1: you have any other suggestions or tech stuff, whether it

983
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 1: is a topic or a guest host or someone I

984
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 1: should interview, anything like that, or you just have comments

985
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 1: about this particular episode, send them to me. My email

986
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 1: address is tech stuff at how stuff works dot com,

987
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: or drop me a line on Facebook, Twitter or Tumbler.

988
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 1: I use tech stuff H s W at All three

989
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 1: and I'll talk to you again really soon for more

990
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 1: on this and happens of other topics. Because it has

991
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 1: to have works dot com