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Speaker 1: I completely dissociated for my body. I had so much panic,

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Speaker 1: and I was so afraid that when I opened my

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Speaker 1: mouth and said the five words that I said, when

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Speaker 1: I was in front of the room, I thought it

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Speaker 1: was someone else talking, and I said, I'm never doing

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Speaker 1: this again.

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Speaker 2: In the late nineteen eighties, Nancy had a phobia of

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Speaker 2: public speaking and it was getting in the way of

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Speaker 2: her job. She was a nurse who specialized in working

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Speaker 2: with chronic pain patients.

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Speaker 1: But there's something about being able to help somebody that

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Speaker 1: just makes me so It's probably the biggest motivator of

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Speaker 1: my entire life.

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Speaker 2: Nancy wanted to share her skills with more people and

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Speaker 2: to grow her business, but there was one big problem.

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Speaker 2: She was terrified of public speaking. Get her in front

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Speaker 2: of a room of people, and Nancy would totally freeze.

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Speaker 2: Then she met someone, a woman who said she could

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Speaker 2: cure Nancy's lifelong fear in a few short minutes using

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Speaker 2: something called neuro linguistic programming, or NLP.

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Speaker 1: She did an NLP phobia fix on me and took

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Speaker 1: away my fear of public speaking, and look at me now.

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Speaker 1: I'm a big ham and I love public speaking and

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Speaker 1: I would do anything to do public speaking. But she

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Speaker 1: fixed me. She fixed that problem using an NLP technique

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Speaker 1: and it never was a problem again.

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Speaker 2: Quickly, NLP became Nancy's whole life. Soon she was working

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Speaker 2: as a consultant for Fortune five hundred companies. As a coach,

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Speaker 2: she helped thousands of people conquer their own fears. This

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Speaker 2: was way more people than she had ever dreamed of

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Speaker 2: helping as a nurse, and it was all thanks to NLP.

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Speaker 2: NLP is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Nancy

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Speaker 2: used it to found us self help company for ambitious professionals.

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Speaker 2: The Dalai Lama even checked out one of their events.

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Speaker 2: The company was called Nexium.

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Speaker 3: Nexium is a methodology that allows people to optimize their behavior.

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Speaker 1: Brainwashing, sex abuse, and even branding.

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Speaker 4: Nancy Saltzman, the co founder of the Capital Region based

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Speaker 4: sex called Nexium, has been released from prison.

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Speaker 2: NLP made a Nancy's career, but then a version of

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Speaker 2: it destroyed her and destroyed the lives of others. But

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Speaker 2: what even is NLP.

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Speaker 5: Take a deep brith is.

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Speaker 6: And breathe out.

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Speaker 7: Your conscious mind is going to go totally away so

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Speaker 7: that I can speak primarily or your unconscious.

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Speaker 2: From Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts. This is episode one of

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Speaker 2: mind Games. I'm Alice Hines, I'm Zoe Lascas.

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Speaker 7: You don't know how you did it.

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Speaker 8: You did?

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Speaker 9: You go into a little time to stars stake.

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Speaker 7: And you're out of it.

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Speaker 2: We're reporters, we're also friends. We're into some pretty weird shit.

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Speaker 10: True story. We met at a shamonic sound meditation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a few years ago, and there were

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Speaker 2: some changes that occurred.

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Speaker 10: Alice, understatement of the century. You astrauly traveled, as I recall.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, you like basically do like a long

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Speaker 2: meditation at this thing, and I realized some shit about

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Speaker 2: my life. Number one, Zoe was my new best friend,

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Speaker 2: and number two, I actually broke up with someone who

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Speaker 2: I've been dating for five years after this event.

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Speaker 10: Whoopsie, daisies. It was for the best. Yeah, everything worked

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Speaker 10: out just fine, especially the friendship. Here we are, but yeah,

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Speaker 10: I think it was that weekend, sometime before all the

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Speaker 10: gongs and rainsticks and chimes got going, that we realized

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Speaker 10: we have a ton in common. Yeah, we do.

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Speaker 2: We're both reporters and kind of professional skeptics. Zoe being

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Speaker 2: a science journalist and me, being a journalist who has

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Speaker 2: exposed lots of wellness scams and cults, we sort of

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Speaker 2: have to smell the bullshit, but at the same time

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Speaker 2: keep an open mind.

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Speaker 10: And we've also, between the two of us, logged something

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Speaker 10: like five million hours on the couches of our respective therapists,

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Speaker 10: and I think that's partly why we're interested in alternative therapies. Like,

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Speaker 10: what if you didn't have to spend hours and hours

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Speaker 10: and hours of your life in hundreds of dollars on

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Speaker 10: mainstream psychiatry.

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Speaker 2: I hope my therapist isn't listening to this.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, sorry, Annie, they probably are. So in this series,

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Speaker 10: we're gonna go splunking into the murky depths of neuro

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Speaker 10: linguistic programming or NLP, and we're gonna try to find

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Speaker 10: out if it deserves its sort of shape reputation.

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Speaker 2: So I first heard about NLP because an alleged cult

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Speaker 2: that I was investigating said they used it. So this

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Speaker 2: wasn't Nexium, it was a different group called Twin Flames.

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Speaker 10: And what did they use NLP for?

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Speaker 2: Okay, here's a quote from some of the documentation around

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Speaker 2: this group that they put out. Your practitioner will expertly

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Speaker 2: access your trauma like a world class computer programmer, rooting

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Speaker 2: out a bug in the system.

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Speaker 10: Not scary at all. No, that sounds totally normal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's how they used NLP. But we were

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Speaker 2: curious whether these techniques could be used in other contexts,

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Speaker 2: and when we started looking into it, we realized NLP

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Speaker 2: is literally.

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Speaker 10: Everywhere, and we do mean everywhere. You've probably used an

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Speaker 10: NLP technique without knowing it, or someone's used one on you.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's the basis of a ton of self help movements,

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Speaker 2: any type of manifesting, visualizations, vision boards. If you've done

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Speaker 2: any of that, you've done NLP.

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Speaker 10: It has a ton of boldface name followers. There are

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Speaker 10: Olympic divers who have used NLP to perfect their form.

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Speaker 10: The Wolf of Wall Street Jordan Belfort used it for

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Speaker 10: closing deals. Fortune five hundred companies like Apple, IBM, Coca

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Speaker 10: Cola have spent tons of money on NLP sales trainings

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Speaker 10: over the past fifty.

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Speaker 2: Years, and so did Army intelligence. They sought out NLP

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Speaker 2: to improve soldier marksmanship and spycraft. They called it a

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Speaker 2: technology for enhancing human performance.

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Speaker 10: And NLP spawned the self help behemoth that is Tony robbins.

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Speaker 6: Anybody could be in a good state when things are

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Speaker 6: going your way, but if you can stay in a

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Speaker 6: beautiful state when things don't go your way, then you're

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Speaker 6: going to have a beautiful wife.

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Speaker 10: That's Tony from one of his many ads for Unleash

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Speaker 10: the Power, within a four day event that regularly draws

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Speaker 10: thousands of people. He's coached Serena Williams, advised Bill Clinton,

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Speaker 10: and even taught Oprah to walk on hot coals. Tony's

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Speaker 10: built an empire telling people they can radically improve themselves

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Speaker 10: using NLP.

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Speaker 4: You want to change your life, you want to get

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Speaker 4: out of suffering, trade your expectations for appreciation, and your

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Speaker 4: whole life will change in that moment.

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Speaker 2: But NLP promises more than personal growth. It also promises

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Speaker 2: to teach you how to persuade others.

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Speaker 4: If you could control the behavior of anybody around you,

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Speaker 4: what kind of life would you have? Somebody would scared

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Speaker 4: when I said word control people's behaviors. It's already happening.

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Speaker 10: Fans of NLP say it's like finally getting a user

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Speaker 10: manual for your brain. It makes reprogramming the way you

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Speaker 10: think quick and easy. You can simply delete bad habits,

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Speaker 10: vanish crippling phobias, and install new patterns like software.

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Speaker 2: Sounds a little too good to be true.

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Speaker 1: NLP is a model of language patterns to create behavior change.

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Speaker 4: The human problem is a behavioral problem.

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Speaker 1: All communication is some form of manipulation.

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Speaker 4: By changing all behaviors, we could change the entire world.

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Speaker 2: If you google NLP, you'll find a lot of credible

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Speaker 2: sources saying it's a pseudoscience.

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Speaker 10: Yet not everything that doesn't go through peer review journals

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Speaker 10: and double blind studies is necessarily useless. Think of alternative therapies.

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Speaker 10: People get a lot out of anyway or hypnosis, right,

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Speaker 10: like hypnosis which is used by legit doctors to help

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Speaker 10: people with very concrete.

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Speaker 2: Problems smoking, cessation, pain management phobias.

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Speaker 10: But then it also exists in the collective imagination as

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Speaker 10: this sort of magical Brainwashy's Fengali mind control tactic.

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Speaker 2: By the way, a lot of NLP is hypnosis. There's

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Speaker 2: huge crossover. Hypnosis is actually how Nancy Salzman got into NLP.

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Speaker 1: I'll do a session with you at everyone. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: how do you feel about giving birth?

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Speaker 2: I am excited to give birth, but I'm also definitely

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Speaker 2: afraid of the physical ordeal. I'm here in a suburban

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Speaker 2: townhouse outside of Albany, New York with Nancy. We're sitting

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Speaker 2: on a comfy couch in her upstairs office, surrounded by

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Speaker 2: books about Buddhism and neuroscience. I was expecting the Nancy

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Speaker 2: Salzman I'd seen on HBO pantsuits corporate charisma, but today

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Speaker 2: she's stressed casually and feels more like a mom hosting

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Speaker 2: a soccer team. She's prepared an entire lunch spread for

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Speaker 2: us and seems really happy to have company. Her hairless

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Speaker 2: cat keeps jumping on my lap.

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Speaker 1: What is that physical ordeal of birth in your understanding?

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Speaker 1: Let's see. The physical ordeal is, like.

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Speaker 2: I guess, I'm afraid of, like permanent change that is

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Speaker 2: irreversible to my body.

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Speaker 1: I'm afraid of injury, as.

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Speaker 2: You've probably guessed, I'm pregnant like do in a couple months.

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Speaker 2: When I went to visit Nancy, I'd already been trying

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Speaker 2: hypnosis for relaxation. Turns out hypnobirth thing is one of

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Speaker 2: Nancy's specialties. So we're giving in a whirl.

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Speaker 10: Alice, Please don't get brainwashed by Nancy salesman.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I know everyone's probably thinking right now that I'm

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Speaker 2: a little nuts, but I came here to learn about

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Speaker 2: Nancy's methods and sometimes the only way to understand something

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Speaker 2: is to try it.

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Speaker 1: How are you with risk? In other things? I'm okay

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Speaker 1: with some risk?

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Speaker 2: What do you mean, like, I feel like I don't

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Speaker 2: think I could be a journalist without taking on some risk.

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Speaker 1: That is what I was thinking. So probably, like today,

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Speaker 1: for instance, you don't know me and here you are

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Speaker 1: coming into my house. I mean, you have a little

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Speaker 1: team with you, But who knows what I could have

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Speaker 1: done here in my house to create a reversible, permanent

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Speaker 1: change that could never be You never know, right, But

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Speaker 1: this feels okay to you? Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 2: So there are many I wasn't sure how much to

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Speaker 2: trust Nancy, and the fact that this whole thing was

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Speaker 2: being recorded and my producers were in the room was

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Speaker 2: also kind of awkward. This was also the very first

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Speaker 2: interview she was giving since she got out of prison.

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Speaker 2: Nancy pled guilty to some charges related to her work

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Speaker 2: in Nexium, but she's consistently maintained that she was also

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Speaker 2: a victim of the group, and she says she was

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Speaker 2: unaware of its most infamous crimes like branding and sex trafficking.

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Speaker 1: I thought doing this interview would be good because the

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Speaker 1: media that happened when my company fell apart was so inaccurate,

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Speaker 1: and I've always wanted people to know who I was,

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Speaker 1: what I was involved, and why I did the work

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Speaker 1: that I did because it was overshadowed all by the

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Speaker 1: media craziness.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't here to rehash the Naxiam story. I wanted

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Speaker 2: to learn more about her work with NLP, and I

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Speaker 2: had to give it to Nancy. She was very perceptive.

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Speaker 2: Anytime I used a word, she dug into the unconscious

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Speaker 2: reasons I had maybe picked it.

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Speaker 1: And I'll be telling me, just listen very carefully to

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Speaker 1: what the person says, and I'm trying it on going.

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Speaker 1: Did I worry about that? Any of the women I've

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Speaker 1: ever I've ever done this with, ever say that I'm

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Speaker 1: worried about injury. Nobody's ever said that I'm worried about injury.

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Speaker 10: Okay, just want to jump in here for a second.

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Speaker 10: It's very odd to me, Alice, that she said no

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Speaker 10: woman has ever told her they're worried about injury during childbirth.

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Speaker 10: For most women, I know that is a major concern.

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Speaker 10: Why do you think Nancy was going out of her

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Speaker 10: way to make you feel like a freak?

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Speaker 2: Okay, I guess you're right. I mean, so, here's what

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Speaker 2: I think she was doing. By making me think my

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Speaker 2: problem is in my head, it becomes weirdly fixable. So

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Speaker 2: it's a strategy.

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Speaker 1: Are your friends pain? Have you had much pain in

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Speaker 1: your life?

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Speaker 2: Some I got in a skiing accident once that was

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Speaker 2: pretty painful.

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Speaker 1: What happened I actually don't really know.

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Speaker 2: I had mixed feelings about this whole session. But later

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Speaker 2: Nancy used our conversation to make me a hypno birthing tape,

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Speaker 2: and I was surprised by how into it I was.

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Speaker 5: Take a deep breath in and slowly exhale, and notice

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Speaker 5: how your body feels. That you have a body, and

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Speaker 5: that your body has taken care of you all through

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Speaker 5: your life, and we'll continue to take care of you

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Speaker 5: now and in the future.

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Speaker 2: I listened to this tape regularly as I prepared to

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Speaker 2: give birth, although I will admit I transcribed it first

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Speaker 2: to make sure there wasn't anything creepy or sublimental messages.

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Speaker 5: You can allow yourself to become more and more self assured.

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Speaker 10: So did it work.

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Speaker 2: I think it kind of did.

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Speaker 10: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, even listening to it now, it makes me

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Speaker 2: feel relaxed.

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Speaker 10: You too are Yeah, No, it's a vibe. It honestly

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Speaker 10: reminds me of something you'd find on a meditation app.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's not just Nancy's words, but her tone

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Speaker 2: and the way she's pacing it. It gave me confidence

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Speaker 2: as I listened it. Yeah, it totally took the edge off.

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Speaker 5: And you can relax into each contraction and allowing your

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Speaker 5: body to do when it already knows how to do.

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Speaker 2: Nancy learned these hypnotic language patterns from NLP. It's her

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Speaker 2: secret sauce. When Nancy was a kid, her mother suffered

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Speaker 2: from debilitating back pain.

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Speaker 1: I grew up in New Jersey in a middle class family.

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Speaker 1: My mother had a chronic pain problem that started when

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Speaker 1: I was about six, and I think I was one

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Speaker 1: of those kids who was really empathic.

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Speaker 2: So she became a nurse specifically interested in treating chronic

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Speaker 2: pain patients through alternative medicine. That's how she found hypnosis.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to use drugs. I wanted to do

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Speaker 1: something non traditional, and my ex husband was a physician,

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Speaker 1: and he introduced me to the whole idea, whole idea

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Speaker 1: of hypnosis for chronic pain and biofeedback, and one thing

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Speaker 1: led me to another, to another to another.

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Speaker 2: And hypnosis is how Nancy found NLP.

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Speaker 1: I thought the language patterns in NLP were brilliant. An

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Speaker 1: NLP said that you could break down any behavior and

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Speaker 1: teach it to somebody else. So I started learning to

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Speaker 1: break down behaviors and look for different things that I

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Speaker 1: had ever looked for before.

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Speaker 10: But she was weary at first.

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Speaker 1: Well, they made a lot of claims that the skills

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Speaker 1: of NLP could fix phobias, could do a whole number

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Speaker 1: of things that were amazing to me, and if it

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Speaker 1: was possible, I wanted to learn, but I was kind

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Speaker 1: of skeptical.

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Speaker 10: If it was possible. If you're beginning to wonder what

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Speaker 10: exactly NLP is, that's normal. It can mean a lot

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Speaker 10: of different things and be used a lot of different ways.

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Speaker 10: Don't worry. We're going to explain it over the course

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Speaker 10: of the series, and we'll get into how some people

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Speaker 10: see it as the ultimate life hack, while others have

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Speaker 10: laundered it into extreme methods of controlling others.

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Speaker 2: For now, what you need to know is that NLP

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Speaker 2: formed the basis of Nancy's self help programs. In Nexium.

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Speaker 1: I saw many, many, many many people benefit.

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Speaker 2: And you are still proud of the program you created.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I'm absolutely proud of it. I'm not proud of

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Speaker 1: how everything ended up.

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Speaker 2: Nancy still believes in NLP deeply and uses it all

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Speaker 2: the time. It got her through prison.

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Speaker 1: I will tell you that the judge sentenced me to

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Speaker 1: go to a camp like Martha Stewart, and that's what

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Speaker 1: I thought was going to happen. And they sent me

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Speaker 1: to a maximum security female prison and it was a nightmare.

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Speaker 2: Nancy pled guilty to racketeering conspiracy charges for her role

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Speaker 2: in Nexium. She was sent to federal prison in West

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Speaker 2: Virginia in February of twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 1: I was terrified because they were really mean. They were

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Speaker 1: very mean. I had no rights, like you have no

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Speaker 1: rights when you're there, and whatever they want to do

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Speaker 1: with you, they're going to do with you.

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Speaker 2: She says. This dark chapter of her life still haunts her.

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Speaker 2: When she's feeling down, she turns to NLP.

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Speaker 1: And when I tell you the worst moments, moments when

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Speaker 1: I believed I had been dealt a really unfair hand,

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Speaker 1: and I had been stuck in a horrible situation where

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Speaker 1: I was given no control, and I allowed myself to

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Speaker 1: start really suffering about it and feeling really victimized and miserable.

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Speaker 1: About a month in, I said to myself, what is

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Speaker 1: wrong with you? You have all of these tools, use them.

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Speaker 1: And I put myself in a good state. And I said,

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Speaker 1: you see, you know how to do this. It is

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Speaker 1: inexcusable for you to stay in the state because you

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Speaker 1: are making yourself miserable. You don't know when you're leaving,

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Speaker 1: you don't know how long you have to be here,

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Speaker 1: you don't know what's going to happen. But you have

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Speaker 1: control of your state.

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Speaker 5: Use it.

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Speaker 1: And I did, and I kept myself in a good

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Speaker 1: state the whole time I was stuck in prison.

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Speaker 10: Oooh, yikes. That was intense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I know, maybe some listeners are thinking, can

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Speaker 2: we trust Nancy here? Is it possible she's hyping NLP

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Speaker 2: because she's looking for a comeback or a way to

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Speaker 2: talk about anything other than exium. Maybe maybe not.

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Speaker 10: I actually find Nancy credible here. She didn't have to

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Speaker 10: talk about using NLP on herself in prison, and What

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Speaker 10: I find really striking is that NLP clearly isn't just

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Speaker 10: some scammy hustle she used on other people. She used

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Speaker 10: it on herself. This is what saved her.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she's saying she used NLP in the most high

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Speaker 2: stake situation of her whole life.

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Speaker 10: Did she explain though, how that actually worked, like which

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Speaker 10: NLP methods was she using?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's this concept in NLP. It has kind

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Speaker 2: of a CYBORGI name. It's called state control.

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Speaker 1: And what's so great the bad state control is that

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Speaker 1: once you learn that you can bring up an excited state,

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Speaker 1: it naturally follows that you can bring up any state

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Speaker 1: you want.

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Speaker 2: Nancy learned of these techniques from a man who was

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Speaker 2: incredibly influential in her life, NLP co founder Richard Bandler.

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Speaker 1: And what Richard Bandler taught me in that weekend, which

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Speaker 1: was the most amazing thing of all, was that I

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Speaker 1: had control over my emotional states and I had no

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Speaker 1: excuse ever to be in a bad state ever unless

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Speaker 1: I was allowing it. And I will forever be grateful

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Speaker 1: to him for that.

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Speaker 2: You were using these techniques decades later when you went

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Speaker 2: to prison.

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Speaker 1: I'm still using them. My mother just died. I could

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Speaker 1: just sit here and cry with you. I'm so sad,

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Speaker 1: but that's not what we're here to do, so I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to and you don't have to see that.

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Speaker 2: So, just to give you some context, Nancy's mind died

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Speaker 2: three weeks before our interview. We were going to cancel,

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Speaker 2: but then she said she didn't want to, and when

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Speaker 2: we got to her house, she had cooked us this

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Speaker 2: whole lunch like black bean soup. So naturally when she

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Speaker 2: started crying in this moment, I felt really bad and

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Speaker 2: just wanted to give her a hug.

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Speaker 10: Okay, apologies, this is going to sound incredibly harsh, but

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Speaker 10: I have to ask, are we sure she was actually

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Speaker 10: losing control of her emotions. Didn't she just tell us

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Speaker 10: she can be wildly happy in prison. Could she also

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Speaker 10: make herself cry on cue?

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Speaker 2: Part of me did feel like I was watching a

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Speaker 2: talented actor. It was kind of whiplash her swing from

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Speaker 2: anguish to then calmly referencing her mother's death, and these

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Speaker 2: emotions were also visible in her face and voice, so

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Speaker 2: it would just instantly shift. My take is that these

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Speaker 2: are Nancy's real emotions, but she has an insane level

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Speaker 2: of control about when to dial in to a specific

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Speaker 2: emotion and immediately shift to another. She says, anyone can

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Speaker 2: do this, it's the power of NLP.

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Speaker 10: As someone who does occasionally fall to pieces, this ability

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Speaker 10: sounds incredibly seductive. I would honestly love to have more

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Speaker 10: emotional control on command.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. But what's scarier is the idea that the

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Speaker 2: person teaching you these emotional control techniques could also use

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Speaker 2: them against you.

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Speaker 10: This is one of the truly disconcerting things about NLP.

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Speaker 10: Even the most seemingly helpful techniques can be used in

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Speaker 10: sinister ways. And because NLP masters pride themselves on controlling

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Speaker 10: their every little word and emotion, it's really hard to

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Speaker 10: know who to.

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Speaker 2: Trust, including the guy who started it all, Richard Bandler,

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Speaker 2: a man with a checkered.

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Speaker 10: Past and a crazy, spooky laugh.

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Speaker 2: To understand neurolinguistic programming, you have to understand its contradictory founder,

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Speaker 2: Richard Bandler. Sources have told us Bandler is a liar

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Speaker 2: and a drunk, and he.

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Speaker 10: Has a history of making violent threats.

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Speaker 2: Although Jesse, you know he disagrees with and denies all

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Speaker 2: of these characterizations.

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Speaker 10: And yet here's the Bandler paradox. He spent his career

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Speaker 10: trying to help others, and he succeeded. Tons of clients

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Speaker 10: swear by him.

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Speaker 9: For example, I've had a lot of people that have

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Speaker 9: you know, that didn't believe that people could change quickly,

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Speaker 9: that went to a workshop and walked out and changed

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Speaker 9: the whole world about that.

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Speaker 10: As he explains in the seminar from the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 10: Bandler's whole thing was making people feel like they had

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Speaker 10: the power to fix their own problems. We collected as

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Speaker 10: many of the DVD box sets of his seminars as

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Speaker 10: we could find, watching and studying hours of tape. Here

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Speaker 10: he is in another series, Creating Therapeutic Change.

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Speaker 9: See, once you give people the resources, then you also

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Speaker 9: got to tell them it doesn't happen to them. Too

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Speaker 9: many people think that they come in and they go

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Speaker 9: hypnotize me and change me. And how's gon No, that's

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Speaker 9: too easy. You don't deserve that. So you have to

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Speaker 9: earn that from me. You have to go out and

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Speaker 9: kick the shit out of your own problem.

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Speaker 5: First.

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Speaker 9: I'll give you the basis to do it, but you've

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Speaker 9: got to actively participate in your own life.

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Speaker 10: NLP has spread throughout the world since it emerged in

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Speaker 10: Santa Cruz, California in the nineteen seventies. Do a quick

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Speaker 10: search for therapists on psychology today and you'll find tons

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Speaker 10: of people with PhDs who include NLP in their list

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Speaker 10: of methods.

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Speaker 2: And some therapy professionals even use NLP without disclosing it,

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Speaker 2: maybe without even realizing it. The inventor of one of

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Speaker 2: the most widely used therapies for trauma, EMDR, was very

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Speaker 2: influenced by NLP.

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Speaker 10: NLP changed over the decades, but the central promise remains

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Speaker 10: the same. These techniques will give you more power, this

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Speaker 10: Bandler explains is his goal for all his students.

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Speaker 9: Even though I do do it to them, I won't

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Speaker 9: tell them I did. I won't give them the satisfaction

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Speaker 9: of knowing, because I still want them, above and beyond

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Speaker 9: whatever change they make, to get actively involved in their

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Speaker 9: own life, actively involved in running their own brain.

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Speaker 2: NLP is all about getting out of your patterns, out

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Speaker 2: of your head, and creating more choice.

441
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 9: The reason they want you to come in and just

442
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 9: hypnotize me and make the problem go away is because

443
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 9: the reason the problem is there is because it mysteriously

444
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 9: has been controlling their life, and the missing piece is

445
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 9: their active participation.

446
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,719
Speaker 10: Bandler's idea was that with NLP, you can achieve anything

447
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 10: you desire, really anything.

448
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 9: You must take as a presupposition that what they have

449
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 9: been doing in their life is absurd. If it is

450
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 9: not bringing them wealth, ecstasy, and happiness all at the

451
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 9: same time, it's got to be pretty absurd.

452
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: In the early nineteen nineties, Nancy attended a five day

453
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 2: seminar with Bandler in Pennsylvania. So you trained with Richard Bandler.

454
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 2: What was he like as a person?

455
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: I want to say he was impressive in every way,

456
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 1: positive and negative, and his skills were amazing, and at

457
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: the same time he would devalue them by calling it

458
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 1: that shit.

459
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 2: Nancy was paying one thousand dollars to learn that shit,

460
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 2: and while she was impressed with the techniques, she found

461
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 2: Bandler himself pretty off putting.

462
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: Yes, I was a little horrified by him at first.

463
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 10: I was.

464
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 1: I mean, if I'm gonna be honest, you know that

465
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: I have deep respect for him. I just told you

466
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,959
Speaker 1: he helped me tremendously. I think he's a genius, but

467
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: I was a little shocked at how unprofessional he was.

468
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 1: He would just show up in like his clothes often

469
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: looked like he had been sleeping in them for three

470
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: or four nights before he showed up in them.

471
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: This is one of the many things that intrigued me

472
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 2: about Bandler. At NLP's height, he was teaching corporate success

473
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 2: techniques to executives. But the guy's own life was kind

474
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 2: of a mess. I mean, he was kind of an

475
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 2: unrepentant recreational drug user, right.

476
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: I wasn't aware of his drug use. I was aware

477
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: of his alcohol use because he did that quite openly.

478
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: I didn't see anything like that. I heard about it,

479
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:31,120
Speaker 1: but I didn't see it.

480
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 2: Nancy told me this one crazy story about Bandler where

481
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 2: it seemed like he could kind of control her mind

482
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: and manipulate her into doing something she would never normally do.

483
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 1: After training, he would go to the bar and drink

484
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: a lot with everybody. Didn't seem to get drunk, but

485
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: he could consume an awful lot of alcohol. It was impressive.

486
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 2: One night, Nancy and some people were having drinks after

487
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 2: their NLP seminar and Bandler was there.

488
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 1: We were sitting together and he wanted to go somewhere,

489
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: and I had watched him drink several several is a

490
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 1: thought for me, it's not three or four or five

491
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: or six even ten several is more than ten martinis.

492
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: And he wanted to go someplace, and I had just

493
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 1: gotten a brand new car, and he asked me if

494
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: we could go in my car, and I said yes,

495
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 1: and he convinced me to let him drive you. I

496
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: don't know how he did that.

497
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: You let Richard Vandler drive your brand new Volvo ten

498
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 2: martinis in.

499
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: He didn't seem drunk.

500
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 2: This guy had something he did.

501
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:45,719
Speaker 1: What did he have? I don't know.

502
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 6: Well.

503
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: Also, he was Richard Bandler and I was an NLP

504
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: master practitioner. I wanted to be around him. After it

505
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: was all over, I couldn't believe he convinced me to

506
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: do that.

507
00:28:58,440 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 10: Damn Nancy goes hard.

508
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 2: It should be noted Bandler denies the story.

509
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 10: But seriously, this is a common Bandler motif. He somehow

510
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 10: persuades people to stand by him as he does extremely reckless, scary,

511
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 10: dangerous things. How does work on Nancy?

512
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 2: Well, she thinks it's NLP.

513
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: Well do you know anything about NLP anchoring? So? An

514
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: anchor is a stimulus and a response. They happen normally

515
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: in life, like let's say, you can be anchored to

516
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: your your father's angry voice or your mother's angry voice.

517
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: So if they use that tone, you just stopped as

518
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: a child, and that's an anchor.

519
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: Okay, So Banglor often modulates his voice, That's one part

520
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: of it.

521
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, he played with his voice a lot, now that

522
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: I'm thinking back about him, he did different as, did

523
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: different accents, he did different intonation patterns. He was very

524
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: good at that.

525
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 7: How much more fun could I be having? How much

526
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 7: better can it get? And as you keep that voice

527
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 7: in lock in your head, you're uncond His mind can

528
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 7: and will confirm that you will make this a way

529
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 7: of life that you can and will enjoy.

530
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 2: As you can hear in his seminar Creating Therapeutic Change,

531
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: Bandler changes his voice on command.

532
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 7: And as you do so, take a deep breath and

533
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 7: begin to feel a good feeling start to spread throughout

534
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 7: your body. That's right, start to tingle all around.

535
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 2: Starts to see these shifts in tones and accent. He's

536
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 2: trying to embed hypnotic commands with his voice.

537
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 7: So there, slowly, as you return back to the waking state,

538
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 7: that commitment becomes locked, firm and solid.

539
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: In NLP terms. That's called anchoring.

540
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 7: Eight and the more your body will feel wonderful.

541
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 2: And as we were talking, Nancy was like, wait a second,

542
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 2: that's exactly what happened in the bar.

543
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: Oh, he anchored you to his voice. That's what he

544
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: was doing. When he was doing that, he would get

545
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: you in a certain state, and then when he would

546
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: use that voice again, you would go back into that state.

547
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 7: Now, that's just a suggestion you will carry out and

548
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 7: follow utterly and completely.

549
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 2: The idea of anchoring is that you trigger an emotional

550
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 2: response or behavior in someone with a physical sensation squeezing

551
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 2: their wrist or using a sound like a bell or

552
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 2: a word said in a certain tone. First, you build

553
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 2: a heightened emotional state in your client or target.

554
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: And nlkay, what they learned is that when you're having

555
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: an emotional state, it looks like a bell curve, you know,

556
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: up and around, and when the state is building, you're

557
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: going up, up, up, up, up up up with an

558
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: emotional state. At a certain point, the state peeks out,

559
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: meaning that's the full state.

560
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 2: Once they reached full state, that's when you anchor. Subscribe

561
00:31:59,440 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: now to.

562
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 10: Mind Subscribe, now to Mine Game.

563
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 2: Subscribe now to Mind Games It's kind of like training

564
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: a dog, but you're doing it with a person.

565
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,479
Speaker 10: And that's allegedly how Bandler convinced Nancy to drive her

566
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 10: new car drunk. Isn't she an NLP wizard too?

567
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 2: Though?

568
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 10: How did she not notice that? Do you think Nancy

569
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 10: is particularly susceptible to manipulation?

570
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 2: Well, that's exactly what she says. She told me she

571
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:28,479
Speaker 2: has a gullible streak.

572
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: See I'm very gullible.

573
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, but she does really believe she was anchored.

574
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 1: Now I know what he did. I never could figure

575
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: out what he did. I was anchored to his voice.

576
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,719
Speaker 10: If that exists, that's an amazing power and amazingly dangerous.

577
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: I asked Nancy about that. Can NLP be used for

578
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 2: good or evil? Is it a neutral tool?

579
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: You know, when people ask me about that, one of

580
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: the things that I say is a knife in the

581
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: hands of a surgeon is an amazing tool. A knife

582
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: in the hands of a murderer is a weapon. I

583
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: believe because I've worked with behavior change so much, and

584
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,719
Speaker 1: even when people want to change sometimes it's hard. I

585
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: believe that for the most part, you have to have

586
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: very bad intent to try to figure out ways of

587
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: using these things negatively. But is it possible. I'm not

588
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: going to say it's impossible, because you know, you can

589
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: anchor in fear states in people easily.

590
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 10: Uh, fear anchors. This is sounding not so neutral. When

591
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 10: people are afraid, they're more compliant.

592
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and fear was an explicit part of Richard Bandler's therapy.

593
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 2: He scared people into mixing themselves.

594
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 3: You know, he did threaten punch me in the face.

595
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: That was actually turned out to be a very good intervention.

596
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 1: You know, it helped me to have one of the

597
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: most profound experiences of my life.

598
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 10: That's Don McCormick, a retired psych professor who knew Bandler

599
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 10: and Santa Cruz during the early days of NLP. He

600
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 10: was trying to learn a new technique but kept getting stuck.

601
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 10: It was only when Bandler thraned to punch him that

602
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 10: suddenly Dawn got it.

603
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 2: There are even more stories like this. One that Bandler

604
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 2: told repeatedly was about a schizophrenic patient who thought he

605
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 2: was Jesus Christ. Bandler got the patient to build a cross.

606
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 2: He brought in the heavy wood beams and giant sized nails.

607
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: Then he had the guy stretch out on the cross

608
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 2: to measure him to make sure it was right. We

609
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 2: read about this in a book and honestly don't really

610
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 2: know what to make of it or what the patient's

611
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 2: reaction was.

612
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 10: We do know many of Bandler's most dramatic therapies featured

613
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 10: threats of violence. He denies this, but it's been why.

614
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,919
Speaker 10: I reported that at this one seminar in nineteen eighty four,

615
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 10: a client was trying to work on some problematic aspect

616
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 10: of his life, and he made the mistake of joking

617
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 10: to Bandler that the only thing that could possibly get

618
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 10: him to change would be a loaded gun. So Bandler

619
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 10: whipped one out.

620
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 2: Because in some versions of the story, Bandler has a

621
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 2: loaded gun with him.

622
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 10: Naturally, and the guy's into it at first. He knows

623
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,919
Speaker 10: Bandler and his aggressive antics, and he even says, well,

624
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 10: I'd have to believe you'd actually use it on me

625
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 10: for it to help. So Bandler's like challenge accepted. He

626
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 10: tells the therapist, you have no idea how nuts I am.

627
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 10: I don't have to kill you, I just have to

628
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 10: wound you. Apparently that did the trick. The guy tells Bandler, huh, okay,

629
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 10: mission accomplished. I can change that part of my life,

630
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 10: and Bandler's like, yep, I know, because I would have

631
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 10: shot you. By now, it should be clarified that Bandler

632
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 10: says he used a cigarette lighter shaped like a gun,

633
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 10: not a gun itself.

634
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 2: I have no idea what to make of this story,

635
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,399
Speaker 2: Like what the fuck I mean? I honestly also am

636
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 2: like did it really happen? But also okay, let's say

637
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 2: it did and it supposedly worked.

638
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 10: That's the thing. Even years later, the guy continued to

639
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 10: tell reporters that Bandler had helped him. In fact, most

640
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 10: of the people I've spoken to have said that when

641
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 10: Bandler pulls these kind of hardcore changer I'll kill you

642
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 10: sort of cures, he's just getting in there and doing

643
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 10: what needs to be done.

644
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 3: He would sometimes use threats to get people to do

645
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 3: something or to or sometimes just even losing his temper.

646
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,720
Speaker 3: So I had to him threatened me before.

647
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 1: But I think what.

648
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 3: Well Richard, out of the goodness of his heart, would

649
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 3: have the ultimate compassion to hold a gun to the

650
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 3: side of a student's head to provide the motivating factor

651
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 3: that would allow them to make a change.

652
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 10: Bandler didn't just intimidate students According to court documents, he

653
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 10: also threatened his employees with violence.

654
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 9: Hey, push it to the limits, man, go for the

655
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,919
Speaker 9: throat at this point, because this is exactly what's going

656
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 9: on in their life. They are choosing, and you wanted

657
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 9: to become a magnanimous choice one that's fairly obvious. Which

658
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 9: direction they're going to go in? A positive future or

659
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 9: shitty future? What's it going to be?

660
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 10: And Bandler pushed it to the limits in his own life.

661
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 2: Were you around when he got accused of murder?

662
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: No, I think it was before that was to talk

663
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: about it, they used to say, three people went in

664
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: the room, two came out alive.

665
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you heard that right. Richard Bandler stood trial for

666
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 2: murder in nineteen eighty seven and was acquitted. Oh interesting,

667
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 2: you joined up afterwards?

668
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: Did you know about that?

669
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 2: During his murder trial, including in his own court testimony,

670
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,800
Speaker 2: the whole world learned that Bandler was a heavy cocaine

671
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 2: user and involved with shady characters like Santa Cruz drug dealers.

672
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,800
Speaker 2: Even after Bandler was found not guilty, the trial became

673
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: part of his bad boy loose cannon mystique.

674
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: Now this is the.

675
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 9: Kind of subtle stuff that I'm trying to get you,

676
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 9: guys to do all right. It's none of this sitting

677
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 9: around and going and how do you feel about that?

678
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,879
Speaker 9: You know, or going into a meeting and going, uh, well,

679
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 9: do you see any good prospects for the future?

680
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 7: Fuck that jam them in their head, you know.

681
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 9: I find want people work for me to have a

682
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 9: positive view of the future. I'm going to take it

683
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 9: and put it on a brick and shove it right

684
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 9: in their skull so they don't miss it. I sort

685
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 9: of the sledgehammer approach to things.

686
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: Listening to Richard Bandler his sledgehammer approach to healing. It's

687
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 2: what's so provocative about NLP, the grand claims and the

688
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 2: seemingly absurdly simple yet weirdly effective techniques, and then there's

689
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,479
Speaker 2: the whole, if you know, you know, aspect of the thing.

690
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 2: It was shocking to me that NLP was so unknown

691
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: and yet so relevant. It's literally in every meditation app

692
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 2: I've seen, especially as wellness pervades so many aspects of

693
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 2: our lives and we have this collective obsession with self

694
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: optimization and treating our brains as computers to be reprogrammed,

695
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 2: NLP seems more relevant than.

696
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,879
Speaker 10: Ever it's that pervasiveness that sent us down this road

697
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 10: of trying to figure out where it comes from, in

698
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 10: part through the story of one of its central figures,

699
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 10: Richard Bandler, brilliant outside the box healer.

700
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 9: They wouldn't give me a license to do therapy because

701
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 9: I'm not qualified.

702
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 7: I think that's wonderful.

703
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 8: Therapy tries to get you to relive trauma. I try

704
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,959
Speaker 8: to get people to stop thinking about it so much.

705
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 8: My techniques focus on getting people to take control of

706
00:39:58,719 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 8: their mind.

707
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 10: Slick Hustler who sold pseudo scientific life hacks to the

708
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 10: US military and inspired hundreds of imitators.

709
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 8: It spread all over the planet. It's everywhere. I'm translated

710
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 8: into dozens of languages.

711
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 10: We're deeply skeptical of gurus, but we want to separate

712
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 10: what's legit from the jargon and empty promises.

713
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 2: So we're going to interview sales with this.

714
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 10: I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused pick

715
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 10: up artists. She looked at me and she said, mondong

716
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 10: agon numb. And I said that's because you have a

717
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 10: message for me.

718
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 5: What's your message? And then she.

719
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 6: Leaned over and none.

720
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 1: Tongue said something about wanting to pleasure me an.

721
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 2: NLP's most famous practitioner, Tony Robbins.

722
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 4: Tony Robbins doing all this, he said he's the best

723
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 4: NLP guy in the world, which I did, and when

724
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 4: people said I wasn't, I challenged him. I said, what's

725
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 4: up an help off? You give me your worst patient

726
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 4: and we'll see who can handle them quicker. I said,

727
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 4: I'm happy to do it, and I want every time

728
00:40:58,520 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 4: I did, all.

729
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,280
Speaker 2: Of whom credit NLP as the basis of their success.

730
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 2: So do some accused cult leaders or are they innocent victims?

731
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: Well?

732
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 7: I knew that it was cultish and weird, but I

733
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 7: liked it for all of those reasons.

734
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 10: We'll even test NLP on ourselves. I don't know what

735
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 10: I expected to get exactly, but what I got were

736
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 10: some pretty specific images from my childhood. This is wild

737
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,280
Speaker 10: and on you, the listener, with your consent.

738
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 2: A whole lot of NLP is pretty shady, but some

739
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 2: of it is real. We're going to dig into those

740
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 2: parts and the science of hypnosis behind them, and don't worry,

741
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 2: we will get to the murder.

742
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 10: Oh and we'll even hear from the man himself, Richard Bambler.

743
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 8: This is what we referred to as a hit job,

744
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 8: and I find this very fucking offensive.

745
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 4: Wow.

746
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 2: Richard mind Games is a Kaleidoscope production in partnership with

747
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts. The series is created and hosted by me

748
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 2: Alice Hines and Zoe Lascas. It's produced by writer Alsop

749
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 2: and Dara Lukpotts, edited by Kate Osborne, Editorial consulting from

750
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:23,479
Speaker 2: Adiza Egan, original composition and mixing by Steve Boone, fact

751
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,760
Speaker 2: checking by Aman Whalen from Kaleidoscope.

752
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 10: Our executive producers are Ozwaloshan Mangesha Tikador, and Kate Osborne

753
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 10: from iHeart, Our executive producers are Katrina Norble and Nikki

754
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 10: Etour