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Speaker 1: Hey, you, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday.

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Speaker 1: Time to go into the vault for a classic episode

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Speaker 1: of the show. This one comes from November of twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 1: This was published on the twenty eighth of last year,

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Speaker 1: and it is the Science of Gratitude. That's right, a

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Speaker 1: little Thanksgiving content for your what American Thanksgiving holiday season.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you, welcome to

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb

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Speaker 1: and I'm Joe McCormick. And hey, Robert jam band trivia

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Speaker 1: for you. Do you know where the name of the

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Speaker 1: Grateful Dead comes from? Oh? Man, you know, I'm not

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Speaker 1: a huge dead head. I really love that that track

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Speaker 1: Dark Star, but yeah, I'd never really it a lot

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Speaker 1: of thought. I know they have the like a sort

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Speaker 1: of a mascot of like this medieval looking skeleton with

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Speaker 1: the hair and and all, and it's it's a cool name,

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Speaker 1: but I actually never gave it a lot of thought.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know until just recently I found out the answer.

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Speaker 1: The name of the band comes from when a member.

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Speaker 1: I think it was Jerry Garcia, it might have been

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Speaker 1: another member. Somebody found in an encyclopedia an entry for

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Speaker 1: a thing that was that was already an existing phrase

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Speaker 1: called the grateful dead. So what is that? Well, it

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Speaker 1: turns out that the grateful dead is an archetypal folk

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Speaker 1: tale motif that appears in lots of cultures around the world,

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Speaker 1: usually not as a story on its own, but as

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Speaker 1: like a piece of a story, a sort of like

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Speaker 1: scene in a story that shows up in tons of

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Speaker 1: different folk tale cycles. According to the late great American

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Speaker 1: folklore scholar Stith Thompson, versions of this tailor found especially

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Speaker 1: in European and Asian lore, though I think you might

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Speaker 1: find it elsewhere too. But to read from Thompson's descript quote,

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Speaker 1: in all these tales, we learn of a hero who

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Speaker 1: finds that creditors are refusing to permit the burial of

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Speaker 1: a corpse until the dead man's debts have been paid.

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Speaker 1: The hero spends his last penny to ransom the dead

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Speaker 1: man's body and to secure his burial. Later, in the

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Speaker 1: course of his adventures, the hero is joined by a

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Speaker 1: mysterious stranger who agrees to help him in all his endeavors.

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Speaker 1: The stranger is the grateful dead man. The only condition

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Speaker 1: which the dead man makes when he agrees to help

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Speaker 1: the hero is that all winnings which the latter makes

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Speaker 1: shall be equally divided. In all the stories, the hero

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Speaker 1: eventually wins a wife and the helper demands his half.

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Speaker 1: Usually the dead man interferes in time to prevent the

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Speaker 1: actual cutting in two of the woman. So multiple strange

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Speaker 1: elements there number one. Of course, it reminds me of

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Speaker 1: the like King Solomon and the Baby story, but it

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Speaker 1: also reminds me of other I mean, I think it's

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Speaker 1: extremely common to have what would you call this dynamic

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Speaker 1: folk tale motifs where someone is asked to make a

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Speaker 1: promise about what they will do with some kind of

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Speaker 1: future reward or something, but then the reward they receive

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Speaker 1: is not compatible with the promise they made. I think

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Speaker 1: of the examples in like Sir Gawain and the Green Night,

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Speaker 1: where uh the Sir Gawain in some versions of the story,

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Speaker 1: I think Sir Gawin stays with the host who they

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Speaker 1: say each day they will they will share what they

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Speaker 1: have one in the day with the other one. So

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Speaker 1: the one guy. The host goes out hunting, and he

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Speaker 1: comes back and he shares like the boar that he

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Speaker 1: caught with Sir Gawain, But Sir Gawain instead receives a

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Speaker 1: kiss from the man's wife, and so to share it

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Speaker 1: he has to kiss the man. But of course, the

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Speaker 1: final element here is that it's ultimately a story about

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Speaker 1: a kindness being repaid. It's a story about gratitude from

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Speaker 1: a ghost that somebody does a kindness that he could

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Speaker 1: not possibly expect to be repaid, and yet in some

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Speaker 1: strange and supernatural fact, and he ends up surprised because

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Speaker 1: his kindness is repaid against everything you would expect. And

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Speaker 1: in this we get into the topic of gratitude of

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Speaker 1: of thankfulness, which of course seems an obvious thing to

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Speaker 1: tackle on Thanksgiving, uh, And that's one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: we chose it. But also it is it is an

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Speaker 1: important topic. It is an important part of the human

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Speaker 1: experience and human culture, and so there's actually a lot

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Speaker 1: here to unpack. Absolutely. I mean, I would say this

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Speaker 1: is not the only folktale motif too heavily involved gratitude.

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Speaker 1: Gratitude shows up all throughout full stories, uh, like the

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Speaker 1: ungrateful receiver is a big archetype. Somebody who is ungrateful

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Speaker 1: for what has been done for them, and they, you know,

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Speaker 1: are punished or learn a lesson. And the other side

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Speaker 1: is yes, somehow seeing gratefulness turning out for the best,

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Speaker 1: You do somebody a favor and then you are repaid

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Speaker 1: and their gratitude, Uh, is it unveils like secret benefits

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Speaker 1: that you couldn't have expected. Yes, sometimes the stranger that

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Speaker 1: you are favorable to turns out to be a divine

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Speaker 1: being of some sort. Uh. There are also tons of

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Speaker 1: tales in which if if one is punished or rewarded

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Speaker 1: for either uh you know, not respecting elders or respecting

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Speaker 1: elders being rewarded for the respect. So yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: the gratitude is an important part of of global myth

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Speaker 1: making and then just continuing early a part of our storytelling.

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Speaker 1: So let's come back to American Thanksgiving though Okay, um,

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Speaker 1: all of this isn't necessarily obvious as we go through, uh,

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Speaker 1: just our day to day experience of Thanksgiving here in America,

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Speaker 1: because it can often feel like a very complicated holiday.

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Speaker 1: For instance, let me just roll through a few of

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Speaker 1: the several reasons to hate on Thanksgiving, and I'm I

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Speaker 1: am guilty of some of these, if not all. You've

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Speaker 1: clearly got to love hate relationship because you you keep

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Speaker 1: wanting to talk about Thanksgiving even though you hate it. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I I feel like if I am resistant

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Speaker 1: to something like Thanksgiving, then I should probably explore how

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Speaker 1: I feel about it more, you know, and also perhaps

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Speaker 1: feel explore the things that I feel good about. So

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Speaker 1: on one hand, Thanksgiving us what you get when Halloween

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Speaker 1: is over. Bomber. Yeah, it's it's all that transition away

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Speaker 1: from ghosts and ghouls and draculas and Frankenstein's and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, and the other properly named literary figures that

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Speaker 1: we refer to in the general sense, and then suddenly

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Speaker 1: it's just Pilgrims and turkeys and whatnot, not everybody or

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Speaker 1: monster freaks like us. Though true, true, some may see

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Speaker 1: it as a relief. Now. Another thing is that, as

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Speaker 1: is often pointed out in comedy, it is a you know,

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Speaker 1: it's a post election obligation to hang out with family

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Speaker 1: members who you may very well not see eye to

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Speaker 1: eye on when it comes to politics. Can make things

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Speaker 1: a little awkward. Uh, you know, and if you're lucky,

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Speaker 1: it can make things awkward. Of course, can be worse

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Speaker 1: than that. Also, it is a feast, and while feasts

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Speaker 1: are a major part of seasonal celebrations around the world,

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Speaker 1: it can feel a bit ex estive in the modern age.

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Speaker 1: It can bring up mixed feelings about save the amount

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Speaker 1: of food that you are consuming and perhaps the amount

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Speaker 1: of food waste you might be producing. Also, if you've

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Speaker 1: lost loved ones of individuals are missing from the proceedings

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Speaker 1: for various reasons, you know, living or dead, or if

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Speaker 1: you yourself cannot be part of such celebrations with family

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Speaker 1: for a variety of reasons. The holiday can be bitter, sweet,

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Speaker 1: or downright depressing. Uh, and in this it's like other holidays.

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Speaker 1: This is absolutely true, and I think this this contributed

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Speaker 1: to the widely circulated but false facts that suicide skyrocket

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Speaker 1: around uh, Thanksgiving and Christmas. We looked into that on

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Speaker 1: an episode one time and found that it was not

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Speaker 1: in fact true, that they were not highest around the

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Speaker 1: winter months. I think they were actually highest somewhere in

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Speaker 1: the spring. Yeah, yeah, I remember that. Another thing about

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Speaker 1: Thanksgiving in America is that the pilgrim and Native American

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Speaker 1: aspects of the holidays, trappings and sometimes decorations which many

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Speaker 1: of us grew up with. They can feel other off putting.

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Speaker 1: The more you realize about the exploitation of First Nations

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Speaker 1: people and or the religious views of the pilgrims one

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Speaker 1: of those. The more you know, the more uh you

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Speaker 1: know at least awkward it can feel. And then, of course,

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Speaker 1: the Thanksgiving parade is not quite as fun as it

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Speaker 1: seemed when you were seven. It never seemed fun. You

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Speaker 1: never got into that at all. No, I like big balloons,

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Speaker 1: but the parade aspects, it seemed over long and tedious. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess so. But I was down for just watching

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Speaker 1: any television at that age. So okay, Now, I didn't

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Speaker 1: mean to reign on your your parade, literally no, no,

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Speaker 1: Because now I don't watch it nowadays, I'm really not

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Speaker 1: even tempted to. But when I was a child, at

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Speaker 1: one point, it was big fun. On the positive side, though,

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Speaker 1: depending on your own personal experience in situation, perhaps you

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Speaker 1: can attest to finding some or all of the following

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Speaker 1: aspects of American Thanksgiving fulfilling. First of all, American football.

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Speaker 1: It's not my thing, but I know a lot of

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Speaker 1: people love it, and Thanksgiving is a time to watch it. Obsessed.

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Speaker 1: Somebody's thing, now something it is my thing. The Mystery

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Speaker 1: Science Theater three thousand Turkey Day Marathon. Hey now we're cooking. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that that was and still it was one of my favorites.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't feel like Thanksgiving unless I'm watching some sort

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Speaker 1: of a riff movie. Generally it's Jack Frost. Oh, that's

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Speaker 1: a really good one. That's the one with the like

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Speaker 1: the Russian fairy tale and I guess room. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: they're they're actually some perhaps some examples of gratitude playing

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Speaker 1: into the the traditional folk tales that are brought to

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Speaker 1: cinematic life in that film. Oh yeah, early on then

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Speaker 1: the story isn't Jack or not Jack? The boy in

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Speaker 1: the story he's he's quite ungrateful, entitled right, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: then he's taught a lesson by father Mushroom. Let's see

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Speaker 1: other other things. Perhaps they're positive aspects of family gatherings.

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Speaker 1: A family gathering is a family gathering, um, and it

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Speaker 1: can be quite joyful. Uh, there's nostalgia wound up in

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Speaker 1: the practice as well. Of course. Also, perhaps you really

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Speaker 1: do enjoy the food. I mean, people are gonna vary

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Speaker 1: on thanks Giving food, but get a little jab in

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Speaker 1: there for people who hate food. Well, no, I don't

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Speaker 1: hate food, but Thanksgiving dishes are usually not my absolute

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Speaker 1: favorite dishes. Oh, I see the style of Thanksgiving food

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Speaker 1: as traditionally prepared. Yet, but some people that might be

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Speaker 1: your thing and is so you know, go for it,

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Speaker 1: you know. I am firmly of the opinion that people

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Speaker 1: should not feel compelled to eat certain foods because it

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Speaker 1: is a certain holiday. If it's the fourth of July

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Speaker 1: and you're hanging out by the water, but you don't

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Speaker 1: want to eat burgers and hot dogs and barbecue, don't

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Speaker 1: eat burgers. How do you eat whatever you want eat

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Speaker 1: on Thanksgiving? I am I strongly believe people should have

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Speaker 1: kim che centric feasts. I love that idea and really

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Speaker 1: that's that gets to my next point is that you

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Speaker 1: may look forward to Thanksgiving because you've created your own ritual.

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Speaker 1: You have created something new, something fresh that you share

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Speaker 1: with family and or friends, that that means something more

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Speaker 1: to you than some of these more you know, traditional

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Speaker 1: tropes of the season. But I think that the vast

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Speaker 1: the majority of us, wherever you fall in on these

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Speaker 1: various points, you can probably agree on one thing, surely,

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Speaker 1: thankfulness itself. Gratitude itself is a useful exercise. Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people might agree on that

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Speaker 1: in principle, but then not really agree on it in practice. Well. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so it's one thing to think it one thing to

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Speaker 1: another to act on it. Uh, you know, the act

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Speaker 1: or even thought of being thankful though for what you

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Speaker 1: have in life, no matter how small, no matter how

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Speaker 1: cruel fate may seem. At times, there is I think

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Speaker 1: generally an idea that this is good, this is beneficial,

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Speaker 1: and if somebody is arguing something contrary to that, they're

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Speaker 1: probably doing it to get a rise out of you.

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Speaker 1: With you know, some exceptions, I'm sure. So we're actually

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Speaker 1: going to be talking about gratitude and thankfulness today, right.

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about how okay this subject might at

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Speaker 1: first glance, seemed kind of quaint compared to like the

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Speaker 1: grotesque evolutionary realities and strange frontiers of understanding that we

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Speaker 1: often like to explore on the show. But I think

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Speaker 1: this kind of research, by which I mean investigation of

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Speaker 1: like fundamental positive emotional states, is extremely important. It's actually

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Speaker 1: highly relevant as a scientific frontier because whatever you may

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Speaker 1: think you know or whatever you think is obvious about

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Speaker 1: how to live a good life, just look at the

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Speaker 1: ways we actually live and in practice humans are clearly

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Speaker 1: not in agreement about how to live a good life,

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Speaker 1: and like, what are the correct emotional states to seek

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Speaker 1: and how to seek them? In practice, we don't always

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Speaker 1: have reliable ways of orienting our mental and emotional lives

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Speaker 1: to the maximum benefit of ourselves and others. So I

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Speaker 1: think this kind of thing, the study of positive emotions

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Speaker 1: and positive social interactions, is actually a crucial socially relevant

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Speaker 1: psychological frontier and a workshop for the tools for a

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Speaker 1: better life. Absolutely, I would agree. And another thing I

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Speaker 1: think is that it's important to look at the science

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Speaker 1: about on subjects like this, because I would say, this

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff is usually the domain of things like

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Speaker 1: religion and common sense. You know, positive interactions and positive emotions,

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Speaker 1: and that's all well and good to deal with it

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Speaker 1: and in a religious way or just kind of deal

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Speaker 1: with it at a you know, gut feeling way, but

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Speaker 1: it's worth bringing a critical scientific lens to figure out

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Speaker 1: what's actually going on with these emotions, what are their

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Speaker 1: biological roots, uh, what are the best ways to trigger

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Speaker 1: and sustain them, like how do they fit into our

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Speaker 1: lives and how can we drive them to the benefit

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Speaker 1: of humanity. Yeah, and and hopefully all of this will

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Speaker 1: be just a good exercise for everyone in general, because

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Speaker 1: I know from from personal experience, it's entirely possible to

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Speaker 1: go through an entire Thanksgiving holiday without actually engaging in

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Speaker 1: the experience of gratitude and thoughts or acts of gratitude.

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Speaker 1: So maybe this will force all of us to to

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Speaker 1: rethink what gratitude is and why we seemingly have a

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Speaker 1: holiday that's all about reminding us to be thankful, even

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Speaker 1: if we uh don't always actually act on that. So

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Speaker 1: first of all, let's just start with under the origins

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Speaker 1: of gratitude, getting down to the you know, the brass

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Speaker 1: tacks of the matter. We'll start with the old old

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Speaker 1: Webster's definition gratitude is a state of being grateful. That's

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Speaker 1: not very helpful, all right, We'll go deeper, and to

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Speaker 1: be grateful is to be appreciative of benefits received, expressing gratitude,

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Speaker 1: affording pleasure or contentment or pleasing by reason of comfort

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Speaker 1: supplied or discomfort alleviated. So it is being aware of

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Speaker 1: your blessings, being aware of benefits received, and more than

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Speaker 1: just acknowledging that they exist, being appreciative of them. So

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Speaker 1: it's like a positive emotion that coincides with acknowledging what

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Speaker 1: has gone well right now and considering all of this,

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Speaker 1: and certainly more so if you are already bringing in

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Speaker 1: religious connotations. We touched on the fact that sometimes gratitude

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Speaker 1: is shall we say, more cosmic. For instance, I can

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Speaker 1: true we say that I'm thankful to have been born

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Speaker 1: in a time of such scientific advancements, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: such relative global peace and personal freedom, and I have

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Speaker 1: can come back to the old phil Oaks folk song

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Speaker 1: They're but for Fortune that talks about all these terrible

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Speaker 1: things and saying, well, they're but for fortune. Go you

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Speaker 1: or I. Yeah. And and as much as there, of

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Speaker 1: course still is always lots of things wrong in the world,

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Speaker 1: you can appreciate the things that have gone right. I mean,

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Speaker 1: like whatever else mad is going on, you can say, wow,

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Speaker 1: I was able to receive vaccines, you know exactly, But

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Speaker 1: a lot of these are sort of by luck of

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Speaker 1: the universe. I exist at all, am conscious of my

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Speaker 1: existence so at all, or you know, despite a fair

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Speaker 1: amount of nitpicking and even some you know, major issues

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Speaker 1: with the state of world or even reality itself. We

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Speaker 1: can say, well I am fortunate, right, So that's that's

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Speaker 1: very you know, cosmic gratitude. But then there's the idea

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Speaker 1: of being grateful to someone or to something, and and

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Speaker 1: this is important as well, and it can take many forms.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps you're grateful to your partner for all they do

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Speaker 1: and for their love. Perhaps you are grateful to your

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Speaker 1: parents for their love and support. Perhaps you're grateful to

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Speaker 1: a friend or even a stranger who did you a favor.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps you're grateful to an authority figure in your life,

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Speaker 1: a boss, a public figure who help you in some way,

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Speaker 1: an artist who created something that gave you joy, or

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Speaker 1: a king um, you know. And indeed, perhaps you're you're

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Speaker 1: grateful to a deity for their perceived role in any

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Speaker 1: of these everyday blessings or the larger cosmic blessings that

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Speaker 1: we mentioned already. Yeah, this is an interesting distinction. Uh,

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Speaker 1: maybe looking at social gratitude versus what you're calling like

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Speaker 1: cosmic gratitude, because I believe the biological function of gratitude

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Speaker 1: as an emotion in the primate brain is probably primarily

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Speaker 1: social right. It's a motivating emotion that encourages bonding and

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Speaker 1: reciprocal cooperation between animals. But in humans, it's clear that

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Speaker 1: that it can escape the bonds of its original social

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Speaker 1: context and exist without an object. Right. You can be

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Speaker 1: grateful but not to any person in particular, like you're

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Speaker 1: talking about with this cosmic gratefulness, or exist in relationship

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Speaker 1: to things. Maybe there is an object you're grateful to,

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Speaker 1: but it's not another animal or another person. It can

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Speaker 1: just be a situation. I find that really interesting. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and I think there are plenty of parallels with other

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Speaker 1: emotions that have escaped to their original social significance in

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Speaker 1: an animal context. You might think of resentment in the

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Speaker 1: negative side. Resentment, I think also is primarily a social

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Speaker 1: emotion as biological functions in you know, regulating social groups

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Speaker 1: and group dynamics. But it's also possible for people to

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Speaker 1: feel resentment towards no one in particular, just sort of

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Speaker 1: rather toward life for towards general situations. Right. Like So,

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Speaker 1: for instance, if if I have back pain, I can

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Speaker 1: resent my job and or indoor my boss, because you know,

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Speaker 1: if that job somehow played into the injuring my back,

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Speaker 1: If I believe in a deity. I can resent my

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Speaker 1: ideity or you know whatever, or the devil or whoever,

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Speaker 1: for their role in making my back hurt or allowing

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Speaker 1: it to hurt in the first place. Or I can,

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Speaker 1: for instance, be resentful at natural selection in the stint

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Speaker 1: of human biology that that frequently enables back penning to

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Speaker 1: exist at all. You can just have resentfulness without an

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Speaker 1: object like and nobody to be mad at here. But

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Speaker 1: I'm so resentful. Yeah, And I think the same is

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Speaker 1: clearly true of gratitude. I entirely agree with this idea

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Speaker 1: of this cosmic feeling of gratitude. And it's funny how

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing complicates our picture of of gratitude

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Speaker 1: far beyond even the kind you see like in the

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Speaker 1: in the folk tales where most often gratitude manifests as like, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, a sort of a debt ode to someone.

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Speaker 1: Someone has done something nice for you, and you're going

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Speaker 1: to find a way to pay them back. Yeah, that's right,

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Speaker 1: Because if there is an other involved in your gratitude,

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Speaker 1: be it an actual human person or a perceived deity,

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Speaker 1: then there may be well this feeling of indebtedness. There

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Speaker 1: is a bond there is something that needs to be

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Speaker 1: repaid and in form or another. And then there's clearly

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Speaker 1: overlap here between indebtedness and gratitude. Uh. And it really

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Speaker 1: depends on who you talk to who's doing the arguing.

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Speaker 1: Some say that they are essentially equivalent. Others, however, argued

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about two distinct emotional states. I was

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Speaker 1: looking at some various sources on this. In the Debt

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Speaker 1: of Gratitude Disassociating Gratitude and Indebtedness by Watkins at All,

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Speaker 1: published in Cognition and Emotion in two thousand and six,

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Speaker 1: the researchers carried out a pair of exercises insurmised that quote,

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Speaker 1: the debt of gratitude is internally generated and is not

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Speaker 1: analogous to an economic form of indebtedness. Okay, so they

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Speaker 1: come down on the side of it, these two things

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Speaker 1: being not equivalent. Another study I was looking at for

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Speaker 1: this one from Matthews and green Um looking at Me

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Speaker 1: Appreciating You Self focused attention distinguishes between gratitude and indebtedness.

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Speaker 1: This was also an Incognition and Emotion but from two

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Speaker 1: thousand eight. In this the researchers found that quote, highly

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Speaker 1: self focused individuals recalled in priest indebtedness, but not gratitude

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Speaker 1: towards a benefactor. Relative to those in the control condition,

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Speaker 1: Self focused individuals also felt less commitment and closeness to

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Speaker 1: the benefactor. So if I'm understanding this correctly, um, and indeed,

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Speaker 1: these are all just arguments on the backup two experiments,

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Speaker 1: they're not gospel. Uh. Concerning gratitude, indebtedness comes down comes

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Speaker 1: into play more when we're considering ourselves as players within

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Speaker 1: a social system. Well, yeah, I mean, I can imagine,

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Speaker 1: for example, it seems perfectly plausible that you could have

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Speaker 1: person a Bob who is really into paying back what

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Speaker 1: he owes people. He borrows five dollars, He's going to

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Speaker 1: pay you back five dollars. Bobs, right, exactly, He always

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Speaker 1: pays his debts. But he might not be a person

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Speaker 1: in which you recognize much of this emotion that we

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Speaker 1: call gratitude. Meanwhile, you could have person b You could

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Speaker 1: have Jeff over here, who maybe is kind of flaky

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Speaker 1: about paying back debts owed and doesn't keep a very

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Speaker 1: clean ledger that way, doesn't settle all these debts, but

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Speaker 1: shows more of the emotion we think of his gratitude

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Speaker 1: that that makes sense to me, and I can very

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Speaker 1: easily see those things being disconnected from one another in

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Speaker 1: social scenarios. Now here's another paper. I was looking at

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Speaker 1: a two thousand seven paper in Motivation and Emotion from

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Speaker 1: joe En Saying titled the Effects of Helper Intention on

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Speaker 1: Gratitude and Indebtedness. And this also experimented with the distinction

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Speaker 1: and explore the effects of helper intention on reactions to

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Speaker 1: a favor. And basically, the subjects were asked to think

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Speaker 1: about times they did something nice, either within an ulterior

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Speaker 1: motive or as an act of just pure benevolence and quote,

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Speaker 1: participants fell significantly more grateful when the helper had benevolent intentions.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of it would seem to come down

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Speaker 1: to either the express nature of the act and or

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Speaker 1: the individual's perception of it. So you could have people

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Speaker 1: who feel thankful because, you know, the stranger gave me

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Speaker 1: a cold water bottle just out of kindness or uh,

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Speaker 1: you know um. Or they could say, oh, the bellman

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Speaker 1: was so nice to bring my luggage to my hotel room,

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Speaker 1: and they're grateful, not realizing they were supposed to tip

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Speaker 1: that individual. Right, It's all about you know, your perception.

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Speaker 1: You know, likewise, you could feel indebted because your friend

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Speaker 1: helped you move and you know that they are going

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Speaker 1: to move next week, or you know, you could be

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Speaker 1: something like, oh, that stranger gave me a bottle of water,

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Speaker 1: probably because they're going to try to sell me something.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to stand here and listen to them,

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Speaker 1: you know, or something like that. So you could you

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Speaker 1: could read or potentially misread any situation and lean more

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Speaker 1: towards gratitude or indebtedness. Okay, we totally know if you've

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Speaker 1: watched a mob movie or the Pranos, that there are

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Speaker 1: gifts that are purely menacing that that you can like

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Speaker 1: give somebody a gift or give somebody cash or something

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Speaker 1: like that, and the goal is not to do something

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Speaker 1: nice for them. It is to to scare them, to

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Speaker 1: signal to them that they are indebted to you, and

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Speaker 1: they can't you know, they can't turn this down. It's

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Speaker 1: more of a kind of dominance move when someone in

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Speaker 1: a position of power um asked for a favor, that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. It's entirely friend situation than if a

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Speaker 1: normal person just asks, you know, a friend or a

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Speaker 1: family member for a favor. Well, but But in this case,

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Speaker 1: what I was talking about is if a person in

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Speaker 1: power does you a favor, but you know, you're not

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Speaker 1: going to feel gratitude if you don't think that the

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Speaker 1: favor was actually done out of kindness, if you think

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Speaker 1: the favor was done in some way to try to

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Speaker 1: dominate you or make a point to you. Yes. Now,

429
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 1: both of these ideas, though no matter how connected they are,

430
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 1: touch on two things that are typically stressed in human cultures.

431
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 1: You should repay your debts, and you should show gratitude,

432
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: either in general to a deity or deities and or

433
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 1: two individuals. All Right, it's time to take a quick break,

434
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,400
Speaker 1: but we'll be right back to discuss some research on gratitude.

435
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,880
Speaker 1: Thank alright, we're back. So in considering, you know, cultural

436
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 1: attitudes towards gratitude and who should show gratitude towards, one

437
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 1: of the big ones is, of course, gratitude towards parents

438
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 1: and family members. That kind of makes sense. I mean,

439
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: the entire act of raising a child is doing a

440
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 1: lot of favors that are not immediately repaid, right, and

441
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: and also you engage in them generally because you don't

442
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 1: expect them to be repaid. Were the lecture. Yeah, but

443
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 1: but this is important business in human culture. Uh. And

444
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 1: in various cultures we see different models of it. For instance,

445
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 1: in Chinese traditions there's the concept of filial p d

446
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 1: or shall, and it is enormously important and in many

447
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 1: Eastern cultures as well. It's a concept grounded in Dallast

448
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 1: philosophy Confucian family values, and it concerns the undying nature

449
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: of the human soul. The dead live on in the afterlife.

450
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,199
Speaker 1: It also entails continue efforts to not only honor to

451
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,360
Speaker 1: see family members, but to care for them, to tend

452
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: to their desires, and even in some models curry favor

453
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: in order to avoid catastrophe, to maintain balance and happiness

454
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: for the living and for the dead. Um. You know,

455
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: it's a continued spirit lineage for a given family. But

456
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 1: we also see the basic form of this elsewhere as well.

457
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 1: A certain amount of respect and devotion is old to elders,

458
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: particularly one's own elders, and we see shades of this

459
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 1: and other cultures. The Greeks and Romans put a great

460
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 1: deal of emphasis on gratefulness to one's parents and failure

461
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: to honor this was considered not mere ingratitude, but impeity.

462
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 1: Uh so we're talking, you know, the dire breach of

463
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 1: a bond that is often attributed to that between a

464
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: more wine a god. And of course one is reminded

465
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: of the line from King Lear right, how sharper it

466
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 1: is than a serpent's tooth to have an ungrateful child.

467
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: I mean the serpent's tooth doesn't make noise. Yeah, No,

468
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: I mean that is like, what why is it? I mean,

469
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 1: I don't think it's just like our personal pet peeves

470
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 1: like it is a widely recognized thing that one of

471
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: the most disgusting things to witnesses, like a particularly entitled

472
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: and ungrateful child. Well that's fine, Willy Wonking the chocolate factory,

473
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 1: we see. I think several generations of this, right, the

474
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: ungrateful child, I guess for fru cassault one of the

475
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: ungrateful children. I don't know. I'm not a wally Wanka

476
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 1: expert here now, I'm trying to at least one of

477
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: them is definitely positioned as an ungrateful child, and and

478
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 1: a lot of I want it's and no thank you. Now,

479
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: of course, we realistically have to acknowledge that relationships between

480
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: children and parents. Is is often more complicated than this,

481
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: but still the trope, the idea of the cultural emphasis remains.

482
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: But in general, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all stressed gratitude

483
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 1: is being part of a good life. It's also stressed

484
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: in Hinduism and Buddhism and other major faiths as well.

485
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 1: And often there's an emphasis put on gratitude as expressed

486
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: in prayer, absolutely, I think, And as we get into

487
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: the studies about psychological benefits of actively practicing gratitude, I

488
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: think this is one of the many arguments you could

489
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: make that there are secular psychological benefits to what you

490
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,080
Speaker 1: would normally see as prayer behaviors, right right, And we

491
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: see various philosophers and thinkers throughout time chiming in on

492
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: gratitude as well, generally in favor of it. Um. So,

493
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: just a taste of some of these, um and maybe

494
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: we can go back and forth on these, uh, these, Joe,

495
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: if you want to take the first one. Oh, okay,

496
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: so Epicurus said, do not spoil what you have by

497
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: desiring what you have. Not remember that what you now

498
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: have was once among the things you only hoped for,

499
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 1: all right, And then Cicero once said gratitude is not

500
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: only the greatest of virtues, but the parent of all others.

501
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 1: I think he's close. I think the parent of all

502
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 1: others is probably honesty, but but gratitude right up there,

503
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: somewhere right below. I think gratitude fits in pretty well

504
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: with with the Stoic philosophy and you and you can

505
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: see this in the writings of Marcus Aurelius, where he said,

506
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: take full account of what excellencies you possess and ingratitude.

507
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 1: Remember how you would hanker after them if you had them.

508
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 1: Not Now, I was, of course curious what Aristotle had

509
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: to say, and because he's always wrong. Well, and you

510
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: might not be surprised here, depending on how you look

511
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 1: at it. Uh So, I've read different things about Aristotle's

512
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 1: approach to gratitude. On one hand, is pointed out by

513
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: Jacquelean Phifer Merrill in Philanthropy Daily, The Virtue of Gratitude

514
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: does the name of her piece, Aristotle did not list

515
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 1: gratitude as a virtue and actually listed several traits that

516
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 1: run opposite to the idea, such as having a quote

517
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: proper pride wasn't Aristotle also against mercy you didn't really

518
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: like it. Yeah. On the other hand, the Stanford Encyclopedia

519
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: Philosophy points out that gratitude quote fits nicely into Aristotle's

520
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: picture of virtue as a mean between an excess and

521
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: a deficiency, with gratitude being a mean between the vices

522
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: of arrogant, prideful, and envious ingratitude on one hand, and

523
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: the obsequiousness or servility of over gratitude on the other. Still,

524
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: I would say Aristotle not coming off as like the

525
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: the real poster child for gratitude. Well, I mean, I

526
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: think Aristotle was very much one. He was kind of

527
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: obsessed with like with like justice and the ledger being

528
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: evenly settled in things, so like you know, I think

529
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: he was against the idea of mercy or compassion towards

530
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: people who were receiving deserved or just suffering. And I

531
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: think he would probably likely hear be against um feelings

532
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: of gratitude that are disproportionate to the benefits received. All right,

533
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: let's fast forward a bit to some more recent thinkers. Okay,

534
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: it looks like we got Voltaire here, who said appreciation

535
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in

536
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: others belong to us as well. I really like that one. Uh.

537
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: And then here's one from C. S. Lewis. This is

538
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: from the screw tape letters U and off hand, I

539
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: don't remember if this is these are the words of

540
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: a demon or not, but quote, gratitude looks to the

541
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: past and loved the present, fear averaice, lust, and ambition

542
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: look ahead. So to take that for what it's worth now,

543
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: Now to come back to the idea of a you know,

544
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: sort of terrestrial and cosmic gratitude, uh, secular and religious thankfulness.

545
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: There's a wonderful two thousand fourteen Atlantic article titled Gratitude

546
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 1: without God that asks ask us what are we to

547
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: make of gratitude when we remove the spiritual elements so

548
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: key to it in religious modes of life? And in

549
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,719
Speaker 1: this you see Davis psychologist at Robert Emmons is quoted

550
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,959
Speaker 1: in the article, and I think he sums it up

551
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: rather nicely. Quote we all begin life dependent on others,

552
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: and most of us in life dependent on others. If

553
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: we are lucky in between, we have roughly sixty years

554
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 1: or so of unacknowledged dependency. The human condition is such

555
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: that throughout life, not just at the beginning and end.

556
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: We are profoundly dependent on other people. Gratitude is the

557
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: truest approach to life. We did not create or fashion ourselves.

558
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: We did not birth ourselves. Life is about giving, receiving,

559
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: and repaying. We are receptive beings dependent on the help

560
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: of others, on their gifts and their kindness. I think

561
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: that's lovely and extremely true. Robert Emmons, of course, is

562
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: a psychologist who's deeply involved in research on gratitude. You

563
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: see him all over like the UH the UC Berkeley

564
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: Greater Good Thing, which studies a lot of, like, you know,

565
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: positive emotions and things like that. He's all over that.

566
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: So he does a lot with UH emotions like gratitude.

567
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: But I I agree here. I mean, I think gratitude

568
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: is fundamentally an emotional state of honesty and realism, whereas

569
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: a roughly converse emotion like pride more often reflects delusion

570
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: and self deception. Essentially, none of the things about your

571
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: life that you enjoy could exist without the free gifts

572
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: given by others in the past and present. You're you know,

573
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: the society you live in, your education that made you

574
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: the person you are today, all the technology that you

575
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: benefit from the culture that you love it. Everything, everything

576
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: there is a gift from others in the past and

577
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: in the present to you, and to try to ignore

578
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: this is just factually deceptive. You know, think like I

579
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: deserve everything good that I get and and it's all

580
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: because of me. I think exactly the same way that

581
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: it feels good to tell the truth instead of lying.

582
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 1: It feels good to be grateful for everything that's good. Yes,

583
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: I would agree. Now. Also interesting in this uh, this

584
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: article that I that I quoted here the Gratitude without

585
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: God from the Atlantic. In uh, they cite Michael McCullough,

586
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: a psychologist at the University of Miami, who makes a

587
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: case that it may also be just hardwired into us

588
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: social apes, that we are traits for gratitude might be

589
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: enforced through natural selection. McCulloch has his research gratitude before before,

590
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: you know, finding that the doing nice things for people

591
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: unexpectedly produces gratitude and then it's more likely that we

592
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: will resk bond in kind. Yeah, uh yeah. And I

593
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: think there's been a lot of research on the dynamics

594
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: of of like social altruism and reciprocal behavior among social

595
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: species like like primates like us how do you form

596
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: stable social groups of complex animals like us. One pretty

597
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: simple way to do it is to operate on the

598
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: basis not it's not perfectly represented like this, but the

599
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: basis of roughly reciprocal behavior. When somebody does something nice

600
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: for you, you do something nice for them back. And

601
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: if animals with traits for this evolve, they can have

602
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: stable social groups. Yeah, I think I think that makes sense.

603
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: And again we are coming back to the fact that

604
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: we are these social beings and we depend so heavily

605
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: on on these social connections, though sometimes pride does at

606
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: least partially convinces that we that we were immune from

607
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: all of this. So indeed, there has been quite a

608
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: bit of research into gratitude and and so we're not

609
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: going to tell to include everything here, but I wanted

610
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: to start with just a few examples of recent studies

611
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: from the past few years before looking at more of

612
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: like a meta analysis of you know what in general

613
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: we know about gratitude. Right, So, there is a two

614
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: thousand seventeen University of Oregon study that found that journaling, uh,

615
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: you know, taking your thoughts, putting them onto paper, forcing

616
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: them into written language, inspired altruism through an exercise of gratitude. Yeah,

617
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: and that's going to be one thing that figures big

618
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: into scientific research on gratitude. You've got to find a

619
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: way to make it happen in the sort of lab

620
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: conditions or controlled conditions. And there are a couple of

621
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: things that are very common there that are referred to

622
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: as gratitude interventions. One big one is getting people to

623
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 1: like journal to write out their blessings and just like

624
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 1: mentally acknowledge them, going through the list and being thankful,

625
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: and that appears to work pretty well. And another one

626
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,720
Speaker 1: is getting somebody to acknowledge a person directly, like writing

627
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: a letter of gratitude to someone. Yes. Uh. And these

628
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: these things don't work equally for everyone. Some people have

629
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 1: a disposition that's more toward gratitude to begin with, but

630
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: they do appear to be generally effective at triggering gratitude

631
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: and its subsequent benefits. It's something you can do that

632
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: will very likely change your emotional state, just to literally

633
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 1: sit down and think about your blessings. It looks like

634
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: it mostly works. Uh. Here's another one in two thousand

635
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: eighteen University of Chicago Booth School of Business. Because of course,

636
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: gratitude is in every aspect of life, and of course

637
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: in the business sphere as well. Right, how can you

638
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 1: use gratitude to extract money from other people? Well, this

639
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: is interesting that it ties into that, I think, the

640
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: every day experience, because he said that they found that

641
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,919
Speaker 1: people tend to underestimate the power of, say, a letter

642
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: of gratitude. They also, you know, commented that despite all

643
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 1: the research and the media coverage and it is the

644
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: the popular notion that gratitude is good, the public, you know,

645
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: tends do not exercise these exercises of gratitude enough through

646
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 1: expressions like this, through like just a note of thank you.

647
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: That's what I was getting at earlier. I mean, on

648
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: one hand, it's it's not very surprising to say that, yes,

649
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: gratitude has strong psychological benefits, Practicing gratitude is really good

650
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 1: and you should do it. That might be the conventional

651
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: wisdom anyway. But people don't. We don't act as if

652
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: it is. And and I kind of get from this

653
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 1: the fact that it's such a you know, it's a

654
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: business school of business paper. I'm getting there, like even

655
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 1: from like a macke a Valian sort of stand. They're not.

656
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: It's like you're not manipulating gratitude enough, but that kind

657
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: of like ties into our overall you know, perhaps an

658
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 1: overall lack of gratitude. Maybe we're being ungrateful to our

659
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: friends in the business world. They're not always mackilli no, no,

660
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: there might be little elements of that. Here's another one.

661
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: Two thousand eighteen, researchers from Peking University used neuroimaging to

662
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 1: demonstrate a possible brain network involved in the translation of

663
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: altruism into feelings of thankfulness. So I mean, basically, we're

664
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: setting on two decades a plus of work that supports

665
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 1: the longstanding idea that gratitude is a worthwhile virtue with

666
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,959
Speaker 1: positive effects on health, happiness, and relationships and also tends

667
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: to lessen uh, negative emotional states like in the and materialism.

668
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: So indeed, there's a great deal of research out there

669
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 1: about gratitude, and I was, I was looking through a

670
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: lot of it, and I found a really good two

671
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 1: thousand seventeen paper by laos at all in p. Los

672
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: one and UH and this did a lot of sort

673
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: of meta analysis sort of catching us up on on

674
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: what has occurred in previous decades in the researching of

675
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: gratitude and and a lot of these do come down

676
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 1: to these experiments that you described already Joe about you know,

677
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 1: asking someone to account their blessings before you know it

678
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: as part of the experiment, or asking them to write

679
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: a letter of gratitude. Right. So, this paper, is the

680
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 1: title indicates, was largely focused on looking at the quote

681
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: complex constellation of social emotions people experience after practicing gratitude.

682
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: But in doing so they do a wonderful meta analysis

683
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: of prior gratitude research and this is basically is a

684
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: short version of what they lay out. So, first of all,

685
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: numerous past studies have proven that there are tangible positive

686
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: benefits to gratitude. I've listed some of these already, health, happiness, relationships, etcetera.

687
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: And then following up on these, additional studies looked to

688
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: ways to induce these feelings in experiments through gratitude exercises.

689
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 1: So there's about a decade of that, and then, uh,

690
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: there are papers such as this one. They look more

691
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: at exactly what might be going on and how it factors,

692
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 1: you know, into the human experience, and through their own studies.

693
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: In this paper, the researchers found that gratitude exercises feel

694
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: pleasant and mildly unpleasant at the same time, which I

695
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 1: think is really insightful. This is something that I I

696
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: didn't even really think about, but then after I read it,

697
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, that's that's exactly right. Yeah, if when

698
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 1: I'm when I'm engaging in an exercise of grat to

699
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 1: which you know, it might be in the prayer. I've

700
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 1: gone to yoga classes where they do, uh, gratitude exercise

701
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,720
Speaker 1: as well. Uh, they can feel a little bitter sweet

702
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: because in contemplating what you have there and and what

703
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: has you know, the various aids that have been present

704
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: to help you get where you are in your life,

705
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: as well as the cosmic things in place. You know,

706
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: you you end up at least partially contemplating uh, you know,

707
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: the situation of others and uh and indeed getting into

708
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: that there but for fortune kind of zone that we

709
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,760
Speaker 1: discussed earlier. Yeah, I think there there are multiple reasons

710
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 1: that practicing gratitude, while very psychologically beneficial overall, it can

711
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 1: be bitter sweet. And of course one of the reasons

712
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: is acknowledging the misfortune of others while you acknowledge your

713
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 1: own fortune. I mean that that of course, it doesn't

714
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 1: feel good to contemplate the fact that you have what

715
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: others do not have. But then also there's another thing,

716
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: which is just like, there's a certain part of you that,

717
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: even when you're trying to practice gratitude, probably always wants

718
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: to be a bit narcissistic and entitled and think that, well, I,

719
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: you know, I just get what's coming to me, all

720
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: the good things coming my way, or because I deserve them,

721
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: and I'm so great and I've earned everything i have,

722
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 1: and you know, people sometimes like to think that way,

723
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: and it's weird that So I think the research is

724
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: absolutely clear that actively practicing gratitude and acknowledging all of

725
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: the blessings that have come your way, being thankful for

726
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 1: what other people have done for you and for your

727
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: good fortune and luck, that has positive benefits and it

728
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: feels good. But if you are encouraged to do that,

729
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: if certain especially certain people with a kind of disposition

730
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: against gratitude, are encouraged to do things like that using

731
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: the wrong language or the wrong tone of voice, they

732
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: can often become incredibly defensive and defiant, like it's the

733
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: suggestion that they have benefited from privileges and blessings and

734
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: stuff do you know what I mean? Absolutely, Yeah, they

735
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: Obviously there's a lot of talk and culture today about

736
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: about the various privileges that we have and checking your privilege,

737
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: acknowledging your privilege, and and and and factoring that into

738
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: how you relate to others, how you empathize with other people,

739
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: which which is I think a very important exercise and

740
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: essential exercise. But yeah, at the same time, like that's

741
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 1: a way to really raise somebody's defenses. Absolutely. I mean,

742
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: I think I could be wrong, but what I tend

743
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: to imagine is going on there is that even though

744
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: I think most people would acknowledge that it is good

745
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: to understand and think about the blessings you've received, you know,

746
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: the honored privileges that that you benefit from, that if

747
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 1: you are encouraged to do so by someone that you

748
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: don't see as sympathetic to you, you know, if you're

749
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 1: encouraged to do that by somebody you see as maybe

750
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 1: a potential enemy or stranger outsider, you get kind of

751
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: you just like put the walls up and you're like, no,

752
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: it feels like an attack. Yeah, And I wonder if

753
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 1: part of this, getting back to this bittersweet aspect of

754
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 1: of gratitude is that it is placing yourself into a

755
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: state of vulnerability, which which is generally something that's the

756
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 1: kind of thing that is necessary for change, that's necessary

757
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: for for for a lot of like positive movements of

758
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: of the of of of the mind and the and

759
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 1: our sense of identity, but it can also be frightening.

760
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: Also in this paper, they speculated that this mixed emotional

761
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: experience is perhaps more motivating than like a purely positive

762
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: emotional experience would be. Uh. They write, quote, indeed, it

763
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 1: may be this bittersweet state and the behaviors it elicits

764
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 1: that explain why gratitude exercises lead to downstream positive outcomes

765
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: pro sociality, health, promoting behavior, etcetera, lending support to the

766
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 1: age old wisdom that gratitude is indeed a virtue. Right,

767
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: so it's not just like an emotion or an emotional state,

768
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: but it is actually motivating. We already talked about the

769
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: idea that gratitude is an emotion that maybe in an

770
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: evolutionary promotes pro social behavior, promotes like in group cooperation,

771
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 1: reciprocal altruism with people you know, doing a nice thing

772
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: for people who you imagine would do a nice thing

773
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 1: for you, or have done a nice thing for you.

774
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 1: That of course is very important social behavior, but health

775
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 1: promoting behavior. That that's another really interesting one. It does

776
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: show up a lot in the research that you practice gratitude,

777
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: you're less likely to abuse your own body in various ways.

778
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine exactly what the mechanism is there,

779
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: but I can see it have something to do with

780
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: the kind of the kind of bittersweet self reflection brought

781
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: on by understanding the things you benefit from. Yeah. I

782
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: also I also think there's probably connection there to the

783
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: I mean, there is a connection between gratitude and altruism,

784
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: and you know some of the we discussed some of

785
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: that connection already, but you can see where you could

786
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 1: you could be asked to feel the gratitude you're so

787
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: you're you're thankful for the food you have, if you

788
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 1: have enough food to feed your family, right, and then

789
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: you realize in doing that that a lot of people

790
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 1: cannot make this statement, and then that may lead to

791
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: them to the action to actually doing something like signing

792
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 1: up for a meal delivery program, participating in a canned

793
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 1: food drive, or or other acts of altruism. Yeah, I

794
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: think that's entirely plausible. Now focusing just on the immediate

795
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: psychological benefits of of of practicing gratitude, I was watching

796
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,280
Speaker 1: a short talk by the U. C. Davis psychologist Robert A. Emmons,

797
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: who is deeply involved in a lot of this gratitude research.

798
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: I think we already mentioned him earlier, so yeah, we

799
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: read a quote from yeah uh, and he he just

800
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,959
Speaker 1: makes a number of points summarizing some of the big

801
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 1: takeaways from gratitude research and its emotional benefits. One of

802
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 1: the things he mentions that I think is interesting is

803
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: that under natural circumstances, states of positive emotion quickly where off.

804
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 1: You know, like you you you're happy because something good happened.

805
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: You know that can be anything from you know, I

806
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 1: loved one did something nice for you, or you've got

807
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: to raise at work or whatever it is. You know

808
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 1: that leads to this feeling of like oh wow, you

809
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: know the things are great. Those emotional states wear off

810
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 1: really fast. We're we're prone to sort of like go

811
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 1: back to baseline or or pay attention to the new stimulus.

812
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: But research indicates that actively practicing gratitude sort of has

813
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 1: the power to prolong and sustain states of positive emotion.

814
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: It prevents that wearing off effect and positive emotional states

815
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 1: being supplanted by novelty and your experience. And I think

816
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: that's a pretty straightforward effect, right, just like just like

817
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: thinking about your blessings allows you to enjoy them more.

818
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 1: Another thing he points out is that gratitude actively suppresses

819
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 1: some negative emotions and emotional states, not all, but some uh.

820
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: And the negative emotional states that he flags as as

821
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: being sort of blocked by practicing gratitude are envy, resentment, regret,

822
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 1: and depression. Another thing he mentions is that gratitude encourages

823
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: psychological resilience. That just means it that like dispositional gratitude,

824
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: if you if you train yourself to become a gratitude

825
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 1: disposed kind of person, it makes it easier to recover

826
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: when bad things happen to you and when you enter

827
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 1: negative emotional states. Uh. And then finally, of course, that

828
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: this goes more to what we were talking about just

829
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: a minute ago. Gratitude strengthened social bonding and increases our

830
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: feeling of self worth. Uh. And I think the self

831
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: worth thing is very interesting because there's some kind of

832
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 1: perhaps ironic or or seemingly on its face, self contradictory

833
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: thing going on with gratitude. It seems like gratitude simultaneously

834
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 1: causes us to, you know, like be less self focused

835
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: and less narcissistic and less uh, less likely to believe that,

836
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 1: you know, we just deserve everything good that's come our way.

837
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 1: We earned it all. But on the other hand, it

838
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: does somehow make people feel more worthy. I wonder if

839
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 1: it is because on some level, like our our most

840
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: pronounced version of the egoic self, you know, the most

841
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 1: inflated version, which is going to vary from individual to

842
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 1: the individual. But that that that edifice that we put out,

843
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: you know that it is on some level, even as

844
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 1: we're saying it, we know that it is an inflation,

845
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:11,240
Speaker 1: and acts of gratitude forced us to withdraw that that

846
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: that self balloon to to a more reasonable level. That

847
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: then we can feel a lot better about Yeah, it's

848
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 1: true like that, you might feel better thinking about your

849
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 1: own accomplishments if you're more humble and considering what they are, right,

850
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,399
Speaker 1: because you've come down from I am a golden God too,

851
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 1: I'm an okay person, And then you're like, yeah, I

852
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 1: can stand behind that that statement. I'm my hands aren't

853
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,959
Speaker 1: shaking when I say it. But I've got another possible theory.

854
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 1: This isn't something that that I've read asserted elsewhere, but

855
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 1: it sort of ties into what we were just thinking about.

856
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if there's a tie in to an

857
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: extrapolated version of something known as the Ben Franklin effect.

858
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: I think maybe we should take a break and then

859
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 1: we can come back and talk about this. All right,

860
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 1: we'll do it. All right, We're back, and I have

861
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: to admit I kind of feel like I want to

862
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: ring a bell or have a sound of fact anytime

863
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 1: Ben Franklin shows up in either stuff to blow your

864
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: mind or invention, because it does seem like he'll pop

865
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 1: in like a special guest star, like a frequent special

866
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: guest star in a sitcom, Like suddenly he's here. What's

867
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: he gonna do? Is he gonna experiment with something? Is

868
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: he going to, uh, you know, share some wisdom? What's

869
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 1: his role? Franklin m Franklin effect. Well, I kind of

870
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 1: can't you know. I don't love all the so called

871
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: founding fathers equally, but I think maybe I'm sort of

872
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 1: a you might call a Franco file. I like I

873
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 1: like Franklin, all right, Well, how does he tie into gratitude?

874
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 1: All right? So this is a principle known as the

875
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 1: Ben Franklin effect frank him Franklin effect. And here's a

876
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: very simple version of it. You're more likely to do

877
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 1: a favor for me if you've already done me a

878
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:53,720
Speaker 1: favor in the past. It's named after a story Benjamin

879
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 1: Franklin tells in his autobiography about how when he was

880
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 1: serving as a clerk in the Pennsylvania General Assembly, and

881
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: this was before the American Revolution, this would be in

882
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 1: the colonial administration of the mid seventeen thirties. Uh. Franklin

883
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: tells how one year, a new member of the Assembly

884
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: shows up and makes this long speech against Franklin's candidacy

885
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: for reappointment to the clerkship. So we've got like an

886
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 1: anti Franklinite in the Assembly who's up there railing against Franklin.

887
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 1: And Franklin evaluates this guy and he judges that actually,

888
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,399
Speaker 1: this guy would make a good ally in the future because, uh,

889
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 1: he's likely to have a lot of influence, he's wealthy,

890
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: he's well educated, and he's got a lot of political talents.

891
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 1: So Franklin wants to turn this enemy into a friend,

892
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 1: but he also doesn't want to do anything humiliating or

893
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 1: pay any quote, pay any servile respect to him, which

894
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: you know, I admire Franklin for admitting that like petty resistance. Right.

895
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: So he comes up with a plan to ingratiate himself

896
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,760
Speaker 1: to this guy, and he writes describing it here quote.

897
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 1: Having heard that he had in his library a certain

898
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 1: very scary, sin curious book, I wrote a note to

899
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 1: him expressing my desire of perusing that book, and requesting

900
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: he would do me the favor of lending it to

901
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 1: me for a few days. He sent it immediately, and

902
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:13,959
Speaker 1: I returned it in about a week with another note

903
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 1: expressing strongly my sense of the favor. When we next

904
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 1: met in the house, he spoke to me, which he

905
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: had never done before, and with great civility, And he

906
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 1: ever after manifested a readiness to serve me on all occasions,

907
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 1: so that we became great friends, and our friendship continued

908
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: to his death. This is another instance of the truth

909
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: of an old maxim I had learned, which says he

910
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:37,879
Speaker 1: that has once done you a kindness, will be more

911
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: ready to do you another than he whom you yourself

912
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 1: have obliged, and it shows how much more profitable it

913
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: is to prudently remove than to resent return and continue

914
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 1: inimical proceedings. And that, of course, that's that's certain, very

915
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 1: scarce and curious book was, of course the necronomic I

916
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,760
Speaker 1: think so it's it's how Franklin learned the electrostatic secrets

917
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 1: of a So Franklin's observation can be generalized. If you

918
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 1: want to make somebody like you, to make them treat

919
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 1: you better, get them to do you a small favor.

920
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 1: After somebody does you a small favor, their feelings about

921
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: you become more amicable and they become more likely to

922
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:22,760
Speaker 1: treat you better in other ways, frank from Franklin effect.

923
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: So a couple of questions. This is just a historical anecdote.

924
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: First of all, is this effect generally real? Can it

925
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:32,439
Speaker 1: be empirically confirmed? And if so, how does this tie

926
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 1: back into gratitude as we were talking about earlier. So

927
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 1: the first question is their empirical evidence for the Ben

928
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 1: Franklin effect. I think the scientific evidence is not overwhelming,

929
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: but there are a few studies and they do seem

930
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 1: to support the effect. One famous one was from the

931
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. I think it's from sixty nine in the

932
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: journal Human Relations by Jecker and Landy called liking a

933
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 1: person as a function of doing him a favor. And

934
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 1: the authors here did this complicated seizure with a with

935
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: with having participants go into a sham experiment that involved

936
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 1: payouts of small payouts of money at the end of

937
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 1: the experiment uh. And they had different conditions where experiment

938
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 1: ers or somebody acting on behalf of the experiment or

939
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 1: would ask participants to do favors for them, including returning

940
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 1: the small amounts of money that they had won for

941
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 1: participation in the experiment, Like there was a ruse where

942
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 1: they'd say, actually funding his run out and and this

943
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 1: is your payment, but uh, I'm having to fund these

944
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: experiments out of my own pocket, so I would really

945
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: appreciate if you would return the money. And then they

946
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 1: also tried asking for this favor through an intermediary like

947
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: a department secretary, and the authors did indeed find that

948
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: after doing somebody a favor, participants on average reported liking

949
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 1: that person more than they did before, more than they

950
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 1: did if they didn't do the person a favor. The

951
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 1: Bin Franklin effect was supported by the experiment, but there

952
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,919
Speaker 1: are some interesting nuggets. First of all, did not help

953
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,399
Speaker 1: for a person to ask for a favor through an

954
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 1: intermediary or have somebody else ask for a favor on

955
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:11,839
Speaker 1: your behalf? Only asking directly seemed to create the effect here. Well,

956
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 1: that that would make sense, like that is the formation

957
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: of the social bond must be a person to person. Yeah,

958
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,839
Speaker 1: I think that sort of makes sense. Uh. The experimenters

959
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 1: also manipulated the magnitude of the favor to see if

960
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 1: this made a difference. Does doing somebody a bigger favor

961
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 1: make you like them more than doing them a smaller favor.

962
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,359
Speaker 1: They called this the magnitude of concession hypothesis, and they

963
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 1: expected it to be the case, but they were wrong.

964
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 1: It appears that if I ask you for a favor

965
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 1: and you do it for me, you will probably like

966
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 1: me more than you did before. But there is no

967
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: evidence that doing me a bigger favor makes you like

968
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 1: me more than doing a smaller favor would. So, based

969
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:51,399
Speaker 1: on the study, I think it makes sense if you're

970
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 1: trying to get somebody to like you, ask them to

971
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 1: do you a small favor. And of course in this

972
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:58,879
Speaker 1: I know everybody is now thinking back to times that

973
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 1: friends and co are or has asked small favors. H

974
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,760
Speaker 1: and your your second guessing and wondering if they were

975
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 1: gaming you? Were they gaming you? Yes, it's like they've

976
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 1: got me. They didn't want to read that book, they

977
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,280
Speaker 1: just wanted to mess with me. Uh so interesting question

978
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 1: like this does appear to be empirically true. If it

979
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: is in fact a robust effect and generalizable, what explains it?

980
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 1: Why are we like this? There are a couple of

981
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: main explanations that have been floated. One is just sort

982
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 1: of like a social effection that the act of requesting

983
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 1: a favor humanizes you in the eyes of a person

984
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 1: to whom you made the request, Like it makes you

985
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,800
Speaker 1: just appear more sympathetic if you come asking for something.

986
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 1: This This makes perfect sense because I feel like when

987
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 1: we dislike someone, we tend to formulate a very simple

988
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 1: model of who they are and what they're about, and

989
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 1: generally it will boil down to, like, you know, a

990
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 1: few impulses or ideas regarding their personality or character, and

991
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 1: this adds a a mundane l em in into the mix.

992
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 1: That is, it's perhaps is like adding adding water to

993
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 1: a strong beverage delotes the UH the poison a bit. Yeah.

994
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 1: I think that's a good way of explaining it. And

995
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 1: I think this explanation is somewhat supported by by some

996
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:17,879
Speaker 1: of the research, but not all of it. There's another explanation,

997
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 1: which is the cognitive dissonance explanation. Basically, the idea here

998
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:27,240
Speaker 1: is that it's hard to mentally reconcile having done something

999
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 1: nice for somebody you think you don't like. So the

1000
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:34,840
Speaker 1: brain resolves this incongruity by updating its opinion of the

1001
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 1: recipient in a positive way. Okay, that makes sense. Now

1002
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: we'll come back to these explanations in a minute. I

1003
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 1: just wanted to look real quickly at another study that

1004
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 1: investigated the Ben Franklin effect. This was by you Nia

1005
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 1: in the Journal of Social Psychology in twenty sixteen. Does

1006
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: a favor request increase liking towards the requester? Uh? And

1007
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 1: this found more evidence of the Ben Franklin effect. Quote.

1008
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:01,359
Speaker 1: In an experiment, both Japanese and American participants who were

1009
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 1: asked for help from a confederate increase their liking of

1010
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 1: the confederate relative to the baseline social impression of the

1011
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 1: confederate and perceive closeness of the relationship also increased relative

1012
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: to baseline. However, there was an interesting twist. There was

1013
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: no measurable increase when you do a favor for somebody

1014
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 1: without them asking, So it seemed like at least in

1015
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 1: this experiment, again, might not be generalizable, but in this

1016
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,760
Speaker 1: study it was the act of asking for the favor

1017
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,840
Speaker 1: that was crucially important in securing the change of attitude.

1018
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,760
Speaker 1: If you just do somebody a favor without them asking,

1019
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem to change anything alright, So so it's

1020
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:41,320
Speaker 1: not for instance, if you come up to your boss

1021
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 1: and you're like, hey, here's here's a good book. You

1022
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:44,919
Speaker 1: should read this, you should borrow it. Yeah, I'm gonna

1023
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 1: lend it to you, not going to have the same

1024
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 1: effect if the boss came to you and said, hey,

1025
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 1: can I buy that book? Right, If this one is

1026
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 1: the more generalizable effect, it would be that you're you're

1027
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 1: more likely to like the boss more if they ask you. Um,

1028
00:56:57,120 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 1: So these effects would seem to support the humanization at

1029
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 1: explanation rather than the cognitive dissonance reduction explanation. But there's

1030
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 1: other research in favor of the general idea behind the

1031
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance reduction interpretation, showing that we tend to form

1032
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 1: our opinions of people in ways that justify the ways

1033
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 1: we have already treated them. For example, there are studies

1034
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 1: showing that if you force people by experimental conditions to

1035
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 1: insult and say mean things to a person's face, you

1036
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 1: will subsequently find that the people who were forced to

1037
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 1: say the mean things, like the people they insulted less

1038
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,919
Speaker 1: than they did before, less than they would on average otherwise. Um,

1039
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 1: and so I think this fits pretty well with everyday experience,

1040
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 1: like how often have you noticed Bob do something thoughtlessly

1041
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: harmful to Jeff and then afterwards, when forced to think

1042
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 1: about the fact that he did something harmful to Jeff,

1043
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 1: subsequently like start coming up with reasons why Jeff is

1044
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 1: trash and he deserved it. And I feel like I've

1045
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 1: I've read examples of this in workplace scenarios as well,

1046
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: like what happens when employers are you know, forced to

1047
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 1: some degree to employee harsher measures on employees, such as

1048
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 1: headcount reductions or you know, the removal of benefits that

1049
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 1: sort of thing, And then like there's this sometimes there's

1050
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 1: this justification process that moves in that's exactly like this, right,

1051
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 1: you justify your maltreatment by revising your opinions of these

1052
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 1: people and making them seem worse in your own mind.

1053
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 1: And that would fit with the cognitive dissonance reduction model.

1054
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 1: And if that model of the Bin Franklin effect has

1055
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 1: any truth to it, I think it would seem to

1056
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 1: fit with models of the self similar to like Michael

1057
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 1: Kazaniga and Joseph LaDou's left brain interpreter theory, the idea

1058
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 1: that our self comes from a part of the brain

1059
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 1: in the left hemisphere that observes our behavior and then

1060
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 1: tells itself a story to try to make sense of it.

1061
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 1: In other words, you don't cause your actions, your body acts,

1062
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: and then you tell yourself a narrative to make sense

1063
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 1: of it. Well, you know, this is one of those

1064
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 1: things where you you you can apply lie this to

1065
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 1: the mistreatment of of any group of people throughout history,

1066
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:06,280
Speaker 1: and you can see this kind of how this kind

1067
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 1: of feedback effect works. Oh yeah, I think that this

1068
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 1: absolutely has broad like social and political ramifications. You can

1069
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: see it happening when when when one group inflicts pain

1070
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 1: on another group, there's often an accompanying dehumanization of the

1071
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 1: group that's getting the pain inflicted on them. And I

1072
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 1: think that's that's probably a cognitive dissonance reduction thing. It's

1073
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 1: coming up with narratives that justify the bad behavior. And

1074
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 1: uh so, yeah, when when your actions and your feelings

1075
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 1: about a person don't match up, one solution under this

1076
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 1: theory to reduce this friction in your brain is just

1077
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 1: to update your feelings about the person. So if you

1078
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 1: treated somebody nice, you start to like them more. If

1079
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:49,760
Speaker 1: you treated somebody bad, you start to like them less. Now,

1080
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:51,959
Speaker 1: bringing it all back to the to the subject matter

1081
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 1: at hand, why did I bring this up in the

1082
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 1: context of discussing gratitude. It's simply because I was wondering

1083
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 1: if practicing attitude interventions generalizes the Ben Franklin effect by

1084
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 1: turning it inward, if by like observing the ways that

1085
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 1: the world has treated you nicely, that it can have

1086
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 1: positive psychological effects by sort of like self been Franklin

1087
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 1: ng and seeing yourself as well, maybe there are ways

1088
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 1: in which I'm worthy of good fortune. All right, so

1089
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 1: instead of suddenly changing your opinion, I've been Franklin? Who

1090
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,560
Speaker 1: who asked for this? The lending of this book. Yeah,

1091
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 1: you feel better about the world, about individuals, about you know,

1092
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 1: these various mundane and cosmic forces that we contemplate when

1093
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 1: we exercise gratitude. Yeah, exactly. So I'm not sure that

1094
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 1: that's what's operative here, but I wonder about that, and

1095
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:50,920
Speaker 1: I would be interested if somebody could could find ways

1096
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 1: to like test this explanation hypothesis sort of is practicing

1097
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: gratitude does it lead to cognitive dissonance reduction strategies in

1098
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 1: the brain that resolve toward an updated view of self

1099
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 1: worth and and uh, you know, and and fitting in

1100
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 1: with the cosmic order and with your friends and family

1101
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 1: and all everything else around you. But then again, I mean,

1102
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 1: I think this is we already mentioned this, but it's

1103
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 1: complicated by the fact that, at the same time that

1104
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 1: gratitude seems to increase feelings of self worth, it like

1105
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 1: specifically also asks you to not feel like you deserve

1106
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 1: everything good that's ever happened to you and you know

1107
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 1: you just earned it all on your own. Uh. And

1108
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 1: I think it's that tension that makes gratitude such an

1109
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 1: interesting emotion. Yeah. Yeah, And you know, I know that

1110
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 1: some people listening to this might think, all right, now

1111
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 1: I have all these selfish reasons to engage in gratitude.

1112
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:46,200
Speaker 1: But on one hand, that's fine, because we were talking

1113
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 1: about with this feedback between you know, between between action

1114
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 1: and thought and uh and so forth. It's like, even

1115
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 1: if your initial motivation is self selfish, it it feels

1116
01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 1: as if the uh, you know, the complex and play

1117
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:04,440
Speaker 1: here will take over. Um, you may enter into it selfishly,

1118
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 1: but then you know, assuming you know uh, you know,

1119
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:13,400
Speaker 1: typical neurological conditions here, the gratitude will take over like

1120
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 1: the the the effects seems to be potent enough uh

1121
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 1: and and part of the human experience in a broad sense,

1122
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 1: so that you you know, for whatever reason you say

1123
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:26,720
Speaker 1: yes to it, uh, it will do its thing once

1124
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 1: you let it into you totally gratitude, humility, fake it

1125
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 1: till you make it. Yeah. Yeah. Well of course the

1126
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:36,040
Speaker 1: other thing too is that we speak of gratitude exercises,

1127
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 1: and I think you can think of them like exercise.

1128
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:41,040
Speaker 1: You don't want to run on a treadmill once a

1129
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:45,360
Speaker 1: year at the end of Thanksgiving, right you? You? And likewise,

1130
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:49,200
Speaker 1: you don't want to just exercise gratitude once a year

1131
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 1: or twice or a year or whatever, like most of

1132
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 1: the research seems to say that it it needs to

1133
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 1: be something that is engaged with on a regular basis. Uh,

1134
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:00,240
Speaker 1: you know, it's to sort of refresh the psyche. I

1135
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 1: will say this is one where the the overall gist

1136
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:07,240
Speaker 1: of the research fits very much with my own anecdotal experience.

1137
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,440
Speaker 1: I I try whenever I remember, and I just succeed

1138
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 1: pretty often to actively practice gratitude. Uh. And I guess

1139
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:15,919
Speaker 1: this won't be unusual to a lot of people who

1140
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 1: have like religious practices where the regularly, you know, like

1141
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:21,840
Speaker 1: pray and thank God for their blessings or some equivalent

1142
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:24,400
Speaker 1: of that. Uh. You know. I I do a secular

1143
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 1: kind of thing. I like to just when I can

1144
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 1: remember to write down or say out loud nice things

1145
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 1: that I have benefited from and recognize them and take stock.

1146
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 1: And I will say it is a in my experience,

1147
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 1: an extremely useful psychologically cleansing exercise. Yeah. And in our household,

1148
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:44,360
Speaker 1: we regularly have family meetings where he should we go

1149
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 1: around and you have to say hi, you have to say,

1150
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 1: you know, what was the highlight of your day, what

1151
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 1: was the challenge of your day, and also what are

1152
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:52,800
Speaker 1: you looking forward to and what are you thankful for

1153
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 1: and uh, And I think that's a good good way

1154
01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 1: to go about it, particularly if you have a you know,

1155
01:03:57,240 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 1: family scenario and you know, perhaps a a small child,

1156
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:04,720
Speaker 1: Like that's a level of of a thankfulness exercise that

1157
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 1: I think is very achievable. I think that's probably I mean,

1158
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 1: I'm not a child psychologist or anything, but I think

1159
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:12,960
Speaker 1: that's got to be incredibly important for a child to

1160
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 1: see that kind of behavior modeled and to participate in it.

1161
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 1: I mean, as we were saying earlier, like, there's nothing

1162
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:23,640
Speaker 1: more disgusting than seeing a really ungrateful child, Like even

1163
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:25,440
Speaker 1: though you know, we were all like that where because

1164
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 1: we had those of you observe a child at some

1165
01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:30,040
Speaker 1: point or another, you will observe an ungrateful child because

1166
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,320
Speaker 1: they are they are learning all of this social complexity.

1167
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 1: It's a natural tendency. But it's one of the gratefulness

1168
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 1: I think is one of the most important things for

1169
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:42,320
Speaker 1: children to be socialized into as early as possible. Yeah, alright,

1170
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 1: we're gonna go and close it up there. But you know,

1171
01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:48,400
Speaker 1: obviously this is an episode that everyone is going to

1172
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 1: have some feedback on, so we would love to hear

1173
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,880
Speaker 1: from everyone else. About your relationship with gratitude, I think

1174
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:55,920
Speaker 1: about it, Uh, your relationship with Thanksgiving even you know,

1175
01:04:55,920 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 1: hopefully we've provided some you know, from food for thought

1176
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:04,720
Speaker 1: as you engage in this year's feast. In the meantime,

1177
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:06,480
Speaker 1: if you want to check out other episodes of Stuff

1178
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:08,160
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind, he don't know, the Stuff to

1179
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:09,840
Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com, that's where we'll find them all.

1180
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:12,480
Speaker 1: You also find them wherever you get your podcasts and

1181
01:05:12,520 --> 01:05:15,600
Speaker 1: wherever that happens to be. Just make sure you subscribe

1182
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:18,560
Speaker 1: to ensure you get future episodes, and also leave us

1183
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 1: a nice review if you like that. That helps us out. Um,

1184
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:24,800
Speaker 1: all of you wanted to check out our other show, Invention, Uh,

1185
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:27,560
Speaker 1: that's an invention pot dot com. And indeed Benjamin Franklin

1186
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 1: I think has shown up in some episodes there as well.

1187
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 1: And if you want a little uh sci fi horror

1188
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:37,000
Speaker 1: for your holiday listening the second oil age. All the

1189
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 1: episodes are out so you can binge that puppy now.

1190
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:41,920
Speaker 1: Oh in shirts, I should also mention, uh, if you

1191
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 1: go to Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com, you'll

1192
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 1: find a tab for our merch store, and indeed there

1193
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 1: are shirts there with things like squirrels and basilists and

1194
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:53,560
Speaker 1: our logo, and there's a new shirt as well as

1195
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 1: kind of a treasure map to kind of scenario. I

1196
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:59,320
Speaker 1: think I think it was from our Sea Monster Monster

1197
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 1: Sema shirt, so a new one of those to check out.

1198
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:05,040
Speaker 1: And I believe there are some Thanksgiving Black Friday deals

1199
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:07,120
Speaker 1: in play as well, so now's a good time to

1200
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:10,000
Speaker 1: pick something up if you are so inclined, Absolutely dive

1201
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 1: into the merch pit and mash as hard as you can.

1202
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:14,760
Speaker 1: And of course one more thing, since we were talking

1203
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:18,320
Speaker 1: about gratitude, really have to express our gratitude to you,

1204
01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:22,800
Speaker 1: the listeners, because without you, none of this is really possible.

1205
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:27,000
Speaker 1: It's true though, uh and I as always express my

1206
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 1: great gratitude, our great gratitude to our excellent audio producer

1207
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 1: Seth Nicholas Johnson, who makes it all possible. Absolutely. If

1208
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:35,240
Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with

1209
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:37,880
Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a

1210
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:40,120
Speaker 1: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you

1211
01:06:40,160 --> 01:06:43,040
Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your

1212
01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:52,240
Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a

1213
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:55,040
Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts

1214
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:57,960
Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio is the iHeart Radio, app, Apple podcasts,

1215
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Very little

1216
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 1: by point four starts four foo