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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you get in touch with technology? With

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Speaker 1: tech stuff from how stuff works dot com. Hello everyone,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to text stuff. My name is Chris Polette

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Speaker 1: and I'm an editor at how stuff works dot com.

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Speaker 1: Sitting across from me as usuals who wants to start

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Speaker 1: off this podcast with a bang is senior writer Jonathan Strickland.

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Speaker 1: Samuel Spade's jaw was long and bony, his chin jutting

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Speaker 1: v under the more flexible V of his mouth. Very nice,

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Speaker 1: Thank you. You know we did a podcast on nuclear

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Speaker 1: weapons recently, Yes, we did, um, and right in the

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Speaker 1: middle of it, for reasons that I can't even fathom,

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Speaker 1: I started thinking about other kinds of weapons, and I thought,

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Speaker 1: you know what, it would be kind of interesting to

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Speaker 1: do a podcast on ballistics, which is basically the science

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Speaker 1: of figuring out moving stuff and projectiles. Yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: I was. I agree, that was a cool idea. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a science of deals with motion of projectiles. But

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Speaker 1: of course it's been used. Sorry, I didn't mean an interrupt.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say that, you know, ballistics, it also

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Speaker 1: is kind of shorthand for a specific branch of forensics,

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Speaker 1: which is really what we're focusing on today. Yes, because

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Speaker 1: when you get down to it, the actual study of

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Speaker 1: ballistics is in large part a matter of physics. Yes. Yes,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of science involved in this. We know

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Speaker 1: how we much we hate science, dad gum it um.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately for the scientists, but fortunately for crime mystery writers.

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Speaker 1: Bullets do not always behave themselves in terms of physics, Like,

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Speaker 1: they generally go where they're supposed to go, but they

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Speaker 1: don't always follow the normal path when they get there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's just say that it's all due to little, tiny

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Speaker 1: individual differences on a very small scale. Because we don't

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Speaker 1: mean to say that bullets somehow defy the laws of physics. No,

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Speaker 1: but they don't always. They don't always travel like a

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Speaker 1: predictable path. Right. You might think, oh, well, if so

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Speaker 1: and so was standing here and shot such and such

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Speaker 1: over there, then the bullets should be right here. That's

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Speaker 1: that's not always the case. Even even saying the cartridge

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Speaker 1: for the the case for the cartridge should be right here,

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Speaker 1: that's not always the case either. So to really understand this,

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Speaker 1: first of all, we need to talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about how the forensics part of ballistics all came about

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Speaker 1: in the first place. Yes, and and really ballistics people

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Speaker 1: have been trying to get the science behind uh forensics

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Speaker 1: ballistics down for quite some time, but it hasn't really

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Speaker 1: been that long that we really got it down pat.

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Speaker 1: I mean in the nineteenth century, Uh, there were people

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Speaker 1: who were trying to figure out how to do this,

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Speaker 1: but they were the methods they were using were not

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Speaker 1: at all scientific, right, And to understand how you would

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Speaker 1: be able to use ballistics to try and identify a

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Speaker 1: weapon that fired a particular projectile, you have to understand

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Speaker 1: a little bit more about what goes on with these projectiles.

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Speaker 1: So sometime around oh, the late fifteen century, the people

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Speaker 1: who were creating firearms at that time discovered something which

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Speaker 1: was that if you were to have a barrel of

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Speaker 1: a weapon have some grooves in it to help direct

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Speaker 1: the projectile to spin as it comes out of the barrel,

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Speaker 1: you improve the stability of that projectile's flight path. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Previously they were what you call smooth bore, which was

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Speaker 1: basically a a smooth tube. The inside of it was smooth,

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Speaker 1: so you would, uh, you know, say, take your musket

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Speaker 1: and fire, uh, fire a shot from it. Um. Actually,

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Speaker 1: you know this is this is I was getting ready

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Speaker 1: to dismiss this in my head, but I think we

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Speaker 1: should mention this. Um. You know those early muskets where

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Speaker 1: you would you know, uh, you'd have to get everything ready.

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Speaker 1: You'd have to put the wadding and the and the

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Speaker 1: powder in and then the musket ball and tamp it

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Speaker 1: all down with the rod before you could fire the weapon.

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Speaker 1: You know, whether it's matchlock or flint lock, which we

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Speaker 1: talked about in another podcast. Um, but you have a

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Speaker 1: basically a roundsh ball made of lead which is fired

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Speaker 1: using um, the explosive gunpowder and the the gases propelled

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Speaker 1: the ball out of the tube and you know they go, well,

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Speaker 1: they go where they go generally go in the direction

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Speaker 1: that the barrel was pointing. Yes, more specific than that, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it h They weren't nearly as accurate as a rifled barrel,

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Speaker 1: which is what which is what Jonathan was just talking about,

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Speaker 1: where the there are grooves inside the barrel and they

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Speaker 1: are UM and they travel in a spiral pattern. I

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Speaker 1: remember correctly, didn't we talk about something in the rim

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Speaker 1: when they started grooving the barrel? But they weren't They

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Speaker 1: weren't in a spiral pattern. They were straight m may

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Speaker 1: have been I can't remember, I'm sorry, But eventually they

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Speaker 1: did hit onto the fact that a helical groove spiral

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Speaker 1: groove would uh where where that would create enough spend

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Speaker 1: so that the projectile would become much more stable. Of like,

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Speaker 1: this is the same sort of idea you get when

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Speaker 1: you have a football player throwing a football American football.

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Speaker 1: American football player, um your hands. You know when you

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Speaker 1: hear about like when you hear about like a tight

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Speaker 1: spiral that helps that projectile in this case the American

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Speaker 1: football maintain a precise flight path. Well, while that was

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Speaker 1: very useful in making firearms more accurate, it was not

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Speaker 1: the out of as a way of identifying a firearm

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Speaker 1: based upon a projectile that had been fired for several centuries.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't until the eighteen hundreds and uh actually I

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Speaker 1: have the earliest this. This is all from a website

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Speaker 1: called Firearms I d and it was created by a

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Speaker 1: guy named Scott Doyle who did some amazing research on ballistics,

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Speaker 1: the history of it, and all of the elements that

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Speaker 1: go into identifying firearms. If you are interested in the subject,

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Speaker 1: I recommend you check out firearms, I d because it

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Speaker 1: is truly exhaustive. I'm only going to give a small

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Speaker 1: fraction of what he made available. So the earliest of it,

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Speaker 1: he found the earliest documented case of identifying a firearm

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Speaker 1: UH in a criminal case happened in eighteen thirty five

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Speaker 1: in London. And what had happened was a homeowner was

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Speaker 1: killed by by a gun and a servant was suspected

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Speaker 1: of being the perpetrator. And UH, a fellow named Henry

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Speaker 1: Goddard UM who was with the London Police or with

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Speaker 1: a branch of the London Police, was assigned the case.

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Speaker 1: And he examined the the the projectile that killed this

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Speaker 1: shop owner and determined that it was made by a

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Speaker 1: particular mold um by UH, which meant that it came

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Speaker 1: from a specific company. And then he looked at the

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Speaker 1: paper patch that was used in the the the firing

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Speaker 1: as well. Now, this paper what it did was it

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Speaker 1: created a seal between the powder and the projectile so

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Speaker 1: that when the powdering knights and the gases expand, the

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Speaker 1: projectile would have a good seal on it, so it

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Speaker 1: would it would fly out properly. And you saw that

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Speaker 1: this paper patch had been made from some newspaper that

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Speaker 1: had been in the room. He actually found the page

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Speaker 1: where the newspaper had been torn to make that patch,

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Speaker 1: and so they were able to determine that it was,

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Speaker 1: in fact the servant who appeared to have fired on

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Speaker 1: this shop owner. And so that was the first case.

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Speaker 1: Now in that case, it wasn't an idea, you know,

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Speaker 1: specifically checking the bullet for the spiral marks that would indicate, um,

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Speaker 1: what gone fired it, because that's that's something else we

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Speaker 1: should mention, these rifling marks. Uh. In fact, that's why

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Speaker 1: we call it a rifle. There's these rifling marks that

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Speaker 1: are on the bullet itself. That's that's caused. As a

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Speaker 1: bullet travels down this this grooved barrel, it cards little

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Speaker 1: scratches into the bullet. And so these scratches are unique

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Speaker 1: to a particular weapon. Even even two weapons of the

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Speaker 1: same make and model will produce different scratches, at least

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Speaker 1: on a on a tiny let. You know, beyond a

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Speaker 1: superfluous glance, you'll be able to see that there are

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Speaker 1: different prances, and so it's almost like a fingerprint. If

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Speaker 1: you are able to see, you know, tell that two

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Speaker 1: different bullets are close enough and identity that these these

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Speaker 1: markings are really really you know, to all intentsive purposes, identical.

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Speaker 1: You can say that they were both fired by the

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Speaker 1: same weapon. So if you happen to have that weapon

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Speaker 1: in your possession and you've done a bunch of test

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Speaker 1: firings and all the bullets are coming out the same

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Speaker 1: way and they matched the bullet that was used in

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Speaker 1: a crime, you can feel pretty confident saying that that,

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Speaker 1: in fact was the weapon that was used in that crime. Um.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean there, um, there are many cases

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Speaker 1: in which you know, this has been this has been used.

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Speaker 1: I mean one of the first I read, and I

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Speaker 1: read an excellent article by Katherine Ramsland um in uh

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Speaker 1: in which he was talking about do you remember learning

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Speaker 1: about Sacco and Vanzetti in your American history class? This

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Speaker 1: very controversial, absolutely absolutely. Um. This was a case in which, uh, um,

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Speaker 1: the payroll was being delivered to a shoe factory and

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Speaker 1: a a couple of guys came up and shot the guards,

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Speaker 1: and um, you know, they basically made off with the money,

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Speaker 1: and uh so they started looking for information. This, by

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Speaker 1: the way, was April fifty, um, and this is when

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Speaker 1: they started looking. Uh. This really was the incident that

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Speaker 1: made modern ballistics a science, I think, UM, just from

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Speaker 1: from the way they handled it. So UM, the investigators

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Speaker 1: behind this UH collected all the evidence they could, including

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Speaker 1: the spent shell casings. UM. They went back to looking

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Speaker 1: at the manufacturers of of weapons. UM. There were about

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Speaker 1: six at the time that they looked at, and UH

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Speaker 1: they turned out to be Remington, Winchester, and Peters UM

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Speaker 1: that that could use these these casings UM. And what

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Speaker 1: they what they ended up doing was they started, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, looking around at you know, what they could

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Speaker 1: get from this information. And as it turns out, one

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Speaker 1: of the incriminating factors was the fact that for one

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Speaker 1: of the weapons that they had, the only bullets that

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Speaker 1: they could find, uh that would fit that weapon were

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Speaker 1: in Saco's pocket. UM, which is pretty incriminating evidence, but

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Speaker 1: it's not exactly that's circumstantial, you know. UM. So what

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Speaker 1: they did was they talked to somebody who had worked

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Speaker 1: with UH sort of preliminary ballistics technology. His name was

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Speaker 1: Albert H. Hamilton's and UH he actually had been um

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Speaker 1: working with UH with other cases and UH he wasn't

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Speaker 1: completely scientific um in his methods, but he he actually

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Speaker 1: got stuck in the middle of the case. And during

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Speaker 1: this uh the Sacco and Vanzettie case, UM came in

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Speaker 1: with new weapons that were UH similar to the ones

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Speaker 1: that they had and basically disassembled them in front of

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Speaker 1: the judge who noticed that he was swapping parts with

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Speaker 1: the other gun and went, no, you can't do that,

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Speaker 1: and they threw it out. But they did give the

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Speaker 1: information to Calvin Goddard, someone who is quite famous in

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Speaker 1: ballistics forensics. Yeah, he's he's I would argue that he's

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Speaker 1: probably considered by many people to be the father of

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Speaker 1: this technology. He worked with a guy named Charles Waite

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Speaker 1: at in New York with the Bureau of Forensic Ballistics,

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Speaker 1: and he was using microscopes and a helixometer, which is

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Speaker 1: a probe that you could use to look at gun

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Speaker 1: barrels UM. I imagine that was used in the manufacturing

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Speaker 1: of these weapons. UM. But what he did was he

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Speaker 1: fired these the weapons used or or in Sacco and

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Speaker 1: Vanzetti's possession, UM into a wad of cotton and compared

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Speaker 1: the casing and the bullet to the ones recovered in

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Speaker 1: the investigation. And they were similar enough UM to incriminate

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Speaker 1: both of them. Now um, Vanzetti, I mean, they put

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Speaker 1: both of them to death, but Vanzetti said he was innocent,

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Speaker 1: and uh apparently Zacho's uh last words were long live anarchy,

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Speaker 1: which doesn't exactly uh he he doesn't exactly say, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I didn't do any of that, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and in later years too, they've still they continue

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Speaker 1: to examine that and uh, right now, although it's still

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Speaker 1: controversial whether or not these guys were railroaded or whether

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Speaker 1: or not they actually did commit the crime. Um, uh,

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Speaker 1: they still say that. Uh, the weapons still support Goddard's

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Speaker 1: findings even years later. So the technology we're using now

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Speaker 1: suggest that those weapons were the ones used them. That

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Speaker 1: Bureau of Forensic Ballistics was formed in in April nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenty five in New York City, and the whole purpose

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Speaker 1: behind it was that by nine you remember, back in

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Speaker 1: eighteen thirty five, was the first time we see someone

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Speaker 1: trying to identify a firearm, uh, after a crime has happened.

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Speaker 1: The firearm itself was the one that was used. By

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Speaker 1: ninety five, there had been a lot of pioneers who

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Speaker 1: worked on this idea of identifying firearms based upon the

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Speaker 1: projectiles they fired, and uh, The problem was that the

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Speaker 1: the resources were scattered, right. I mean you had you

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Speaker 1: had some communities that might have an expert that resides

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Speaker 1: within that community, but then you know, you might have

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Speaker 1: hundreds of miles of area where there is no expert,

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Speaker 1: there's no one to call upon. And so the Bureau

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Speaker 1: was formed as a resource for law enforcement agencies across

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Speaker 1: the United States. There were other countries that were doing

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Speaker 1: similar things. Actually, a lot of this early research where

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Speaker 1: the idea was, hey, look, they're these markings on this bullet.

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Speaker 1: They're consistent with every bullet that's fired from this particular gun,

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Speaker 1: and they're different from all the ones that are fired

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Speaker 1: from that gun. That kind of work was being done

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Speaker 1: all over the world. In fact, there were a lot

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Speaker 1: of people in France who wrote a lot of instrumental

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Speaker 1: early papers on identifying firearms based upon their projectiles or Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then two, the FBI, the Federal Bureau of Investigation

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Speaker 1: here in the United States was directed by a their

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Speaker 1: jaunty head of staff, Jagger Hoover. I think that's the

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Speaker 1: first time I've ever heard is I think that's what

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Speaker 1: Jay stands for, right, John T. Edgar Hoover. Um, No,

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Speaker 1: not at all, uh, he know, it was more like,

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Speaker 1: really you said that, really it was a question mark,

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Speaker 1: like the sarcastic kind. It wasn't actually an interrobang, gotcha.

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Speaker 1: So he directed that the FBI should create a lab

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Speaker 1: for ballistics forensics as well, and so this was becoming

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Speaker 1: really serious business. And then we're there were a lot

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Speaker 1: of early cases between you know, the late eighteen hundreds

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Speaker 1: and and nineteen twenty that established that this was a

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Speaker 1: legitimate means of investigation. So let's talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about what you actually do when you're trying to

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Speaker 1: identify whether or not a particular bullet was fired from

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Speaker 1: a particular gun. First of all, it helps if we

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Speaker 1: if we talk about bullets and cartridges because we and

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Speaker 1: we've done this in another podcast, but it always helps

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Speaker 1: because a lot of I think people who are generally

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Speaker 1: unfamiliar with guns don't know the anatomy of a gun. Yep.

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Speaker 1: And that's part of why I wanted to mention that

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Speaker 1: about the muskets Um because you know, after a while

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Speaker 1: they realized that the system that we're about to talk about,

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Speaker 1: it makes the weapons much more reliable using those things

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Speaker 1: and faster to operate because rather than having to put

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Speaker 1: the powder in the in the wadding and all that

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Speaker 1: stuff in there, and and prepare the weapon to be fired.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I saw I can't even remember what show

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Speaker 1: it was. I saw a thing on TV where they

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Speaker 1: had somebody firing and must get as fast as they could,

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Speaker 1: just to see how quickly a trained um musketeer could

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Speaker 1: fire a weapon. It's about three times per minute. Three

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Speaker 1: times per minute is considered an excellent time. Yeah, I know,

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Speaker 1: I've seen I've seen artillery cruise that we're using, uh

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Speaker 1: period cannon's um Actually it wasn't a cannon, but anyway,

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Speaker 1: it was. It was an artillery gun, period artillery gun.

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Speaker 1: And they talked about how even with a well trained

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Speaker 1: group of troops who were familiar with the weapon, three

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Speaker 1: times a minute was considered to be the peak performance.

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Speaker 1: So one of the biggest innovations was the idea of

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Speaker 1: why don't we take the system of gunpowder and wadding

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Speaker 1: and shot and all that, and why don't we try

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Speaker 1: and figure out a way of packaging it all into

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Speaker 1: one thing that you load into a gun once and

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Speaker 1: then you fire. So instead of having to load in

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Speaker 1: all these separate pieces and pack them together and hope

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Speaker 1: that it fires correctly. It's all packaged together there, and

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Speaker 1: that's the idea behind the cartridge. In fact, the earliest

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Speaker 1: cartridges were these little paper cartridges that had everything packed together,

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Speaker 1: and uh, they were used in the Civil War mainly.

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Speaker 1: But then actually that was sort of the step between

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Speaker 1: where you put the cartridge in and then and then

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Speaker 1: the musket ball right right the shot. Yeah, the cartridge

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Speaker 1: contained essentially all the stuff that you would have put

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Speaker 1: in previously besides the shot itself. Well, the modern day

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Speaker 1: cartridges have the the fuel that's going to push the

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Speaker 1: the bullet forward and the bullet itself all packed together.

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Speaker 1: So you've got a case that's typically made out of

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Speaker 1: something like brass or maybe steel, depends on the particular manufacturer,

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Speaker 1: and the ammunition involved pretty typically brass, and then you

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Speaker 1: have a bullet at the end. The bullet is the

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Speaker 1: actual projectile that will fire out of the gun. The

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Speaker 1: case remains behind. Now, the case also contains it contains powder,

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Speaker 1: primer and a primer mix and uh, and that's the

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Speaker 1: stuff that when a firing pin from the weapon hits

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Speaker 1: the primer, that ignites the primer, which then in turn

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Speaker 1: ignites the powder which creates this massive amount of gas.

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Speaker 1: Massive in a relative term, I should say um amount

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Speaker 1: of gas within the case. That's what pushes that that

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Speaker 1: bullet out of the weapon. So the case remains behind.

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Speaker 1: The case is actually altered by this because the gases

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Speaker 1: are pretty hot. Then they pushed pretty hard, so the

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Speaker 1: case itself will change a little bit. Then you have

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Speaker 1: to extract the case from the weapon and put a

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Speaker 1: new cartridge in its place in the chamber of the

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Speaker 1: weapon in order to fire it again. And of course

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Speaker 1: we've also talked about machine guns. So if you're talking

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Speaker 1: about an automatic weapon, you put in you have a magazine,

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Speaker 1: some feeding mechanism, feeding mechanism that will automatically pop the

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Speaker 1: next it will pop the spent cartridge out of the

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Speaker 1: weapon and uh load the next cartridge in and ready

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Speaker 1: to be fired. And it happens very very quickly. So

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Speaker 1: but it operates on the same same principle. So here's

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Speaker 1: the interesting thing, a couple of interesting things. First of all,

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Speaker 1: we talked about the rifling with the grooves within the

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Speaker 1: barrel which are going to cut into the bullet, making

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Speaker 1: a fingerprint on that bullet, so that if you were

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Speaker 1: to find two bullets fired by the same gun, and

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Speaker 1: you were to compare them side by side, you should

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Speaker 1: be able to see the same markings on both because

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Speaker 1: it's it's going to carve it out the same way. Well,

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Speaker 1: the same sort of thing goes plays for the cartridge

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Speaker 1: or like the case, rather for the cartridge. Um, the case,

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Speaker 1: the spent cartridge is going to have some markings on

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Speaker 1: it as well. Um, some of it maybe scratches just

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Speaker 1: from you know, the way that it sits in the chamber,

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Speaker 1: or if the there if there's an extractor, if there's

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Speaker 1: an actual mechanical element in there that kicks that spent

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Speaker 1: cartridge out, that can leave a mark on the case

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Speaker 1: as well. So that way, if you don't maybe you

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Speaker 1: don't even have the bullets, maybe you just have the

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Speaker 1: spit cases, you can compare those and see. So I

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Speaker 1: Step one of identifying the weapon is identifying what caliber

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Speaker 1: of bullet was used and you know what kind of

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Speaker 1: cartridge was used, because that will limit the type of

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Speaker 1: weapons that could have fired that particular ammo, right, because

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Speaker 1: not every gun fires every immunition. Because anyone who has

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Speaker 1: ever worked with guns nose they're very specific kinds of

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Speaker 1: ammo that work with particular guns and you cannot you

353
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Speaker 1: cannot interchange them. Nope, nope. UM. And uh you know

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Speaker 1: each each weapon Now, each manufacturer when they make when

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Speaker 1: they put the grooves in there and the the section between. UM.

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Speaker 1: Basically the ridges around the grooves are called lands. UM.

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Speaker 1: Those metal ridges basically are what helped the bullet reach

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Speaker 1: its destination by providing it the spin and accuracy. UM.

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00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 1: But they also are are uh common to manufacturers. So

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Speaker 1: one weapons manufacturer might put six grooves in the barrel,

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Speaker 1: one might use four. UM. So one of the things

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Speaker 1: these marks left and they are unique to every weapon. UM.

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Speaker 1: These marks are going to help the forensics investigator if

364
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Speaker 1: if if they can find the bullets, they're going to

365
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Speaker 1: be able to identify which manufacturer made the gun. That

366
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Speaker 1: will help track it down. And then from there they

367
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Speaker 1: can look at other things that will help them at

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Speaker 1: least narrow down. He said, well, this couldn't have been uh,

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Speaker 1: this couldn't have been the gun that fired because it's

370
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Speaker 1: not even the same manufacturer. It's not the right people.

371
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Speaker 1: So we can rule this out. From there, they can

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Speaker 1: look at specific guns because multiple manufacturers can make the

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Speaker 1: same type of gun. Yes, so yeah, so narrowing it

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Speaker 1: down to your First you look at the caliber of

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Speaker 1: the bullet, uh and the case so that you can

376
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Speaker 1: determine what kind of m O was used. That narrows

377
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Speaker 1: it down to a range of weapons that might be

378
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 1: able to fire that looking at the actual pattern on

379
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 1: the bullet itself and uh, well we'll give you at

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Speaker 1: least an idea of the specific type of weapon used

381
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 1: and the manufacturer. And then again comparing that bullet with

382
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,719
Speaker 1: one like a test bullet fired from a weapon will

383
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Speaker 1: let you know if it's fired from the same weapon.

384
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Speaker 1: So you're you keep narrowing it down. This is very scientific.

385
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Speaker 1: I mean you're talking about going from the general to

386
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Speaker 1: the very specific, and so you're just eliminating all the

387
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 1: other options until what you're left with is the only,

388
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 1: hopefully the only uh possible answer. And um, there are

389
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 1: a lot of different ways that that these the cartridges

390
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 1: can have marks on. Besides the ejection UM mark, there

391
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 1: could be firing pen marks, so you can see how

392
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,439
Speaker 1: the firing pin struck the bottom of the cartridge. That

393
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 1: will tell you a lot about the type of weapon.

394
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 1: Like there's certain weapons that have a very distinct firing

395
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 1: pen mark, So like a square one a good indicator

396
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,679
Speaker 1: that that was a glock that fired the weapon. And

397
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: there are certain marks that are you're going to find

398
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 1: that are common to particular types of weapons, So forensics

399
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 1: experts will use that when they're actually examining UM bullets.

400
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: So let's let's say there's a there's a crime case.

401
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 1: Let's make this more specific, there's a crime case in

402
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 1: which someone was shot UM and the police have recovered

403
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 1: a weapon from a suspect. They do not know if

404
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: the weapon is the one that was used in the crime.

405
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 1: They do know that it matches the same UM model

406
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: and maker of the weapon that was used in the crime.

407
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 1: But that's all I know. The forensics expert what they

408
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: will do is they'll take the gun. Uh, They'll take

409
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: possession of the gun that's from the suspect, and they'll

410
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 1: fire it into a water tank. And the water tank

411
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 1: is a long tank of water several and it's usually

412
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Speaker 1: around ten feet long. It's got about three ft wide

413
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: three ft high full of water. And on one end

414
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 1: of this water tank, which is sealed on all sides,

415
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: which is important you don't want any stray bullets flying out,

416
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: there's a hole through one side a tube where you

417
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: can fire through that tube, it goes into the water.

418
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 1: The water is meant to slow down the progress of

419
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 1: the bullet, and as it slows down, it'll come to

420
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 1: arrest at the bottom of the tank. You the forensics

421
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 1: expert will retrieve that bullet, and then they take that

422
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 1: bullet and the bullet used in the crime, assuming they've

423
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: recovered a bullet, because otherwise there's no point in doing this.

424
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: So they've recovered a bullet from the crime itself. You

425
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: put that and the test bullet or several test bullets

426
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 1: into a macroscope, a comparison macro scope, and you might think, hey, Jonathan,

427
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 1: what's a macroscope, I've heard of microscopes. Well, macroscope is

428
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 1: it's it's a device that does magnify things, but it

429
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 1: usually magnifies them by a pretty small multiplier compared to

430
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: a microscope. You know, microscopes you're talking about multiplying magnifying

431
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: something by a hundred times or more. Macroscopes tend to

432
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 1: be five, ten, maybe twenty times, so it's not it's

433
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 1: not giving you that incredibly up close look that a

434
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 1: microscope would. It's called a comparison macroscope because you can

435
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 1: actually put in two different items. So in this case,

436
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: you put the bullet from the crime and the bullet

437
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 1: from the test, uh onto the little platform it actually

438
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: and here's there with some sticky stuff some some you know,

439
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 1: it's essentially glue, um, and then you put it through

440
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 1: the microscope. The microscope directs the images up to the

441
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: viewfinder where you look in and you can actually see

442
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 1: side by side the two projectiles, so it looks like

443
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 1: it looks like they are you know, right next to

444
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: each other, even though they're actually on two different little

445
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: platforms on the macroscope itself, and it allows you to

446
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: take a really close could compare those markings at a

447
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: a nice magnified level to determine whether or not they

448
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 1: are identical, or whether or not the markings are identical. Obviously,

449
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: the bullets can't be yeah, because someone is probably saying, yeah,

450
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: but Jonathan, why do they have to fire it into

451
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: a water tank? I mean, why couldn't they just you know, uh,

452
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: go to the crime scene and shoot it off the

453
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 1: wall and see what happens. Well for one thing, of course,

454
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 1: again you don't want stray bullets. But um, you know,

455
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if any if a lot of people

456
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: know that. I mean it probably his common sense when

457
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: you think about it. But bullets the forms quite a

458
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 1: bit in the process of firing them. UM. Actually, I

459
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: remember UH my rifle recourse at camp when I was

460
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: a kid. UM. Every once in a while, UH, the

461
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: instructor would take us down to the end of the

462
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 1: range and there was a big pile of dirt there.

463
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: So the bullets would go through the targets and hit

464
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: the dirt and stopped there. So we would go in

465
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 1: and dig some of them out and they would come

466
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: out in the oddest shapes. The thing is, UM, you

467
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 1: want the bullet to be identifiable enough so that you

468
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: can really see the markings on it. UM. And shooting

469
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 1: it against something else that will catch it. UH. You know,

470
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: it will also be deformed by the impact if the

471
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: water slows it down and it basically just drops to

472
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 1: the bottom of the tank. Once it it's more forward

473
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 1: momentum stops. UM, then it's going to be much less

474
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: affected by the impact of of uh its landing and

475
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: UM then you can get a good idea of what

476
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: it's actually going to look like in the marks that

477
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 1: are on it and and sometimes the bullets retrieved from

478
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: crime scenes are in really bad shape. I mean because

479
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: they've they've gone through various materials, especially if you know

480
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: they maybe hit like a door frame or something or

481
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: you know whatever. Uh, And it can be a challenge

482
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: to identify them just because the bullets themselves may not

483
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: be indecent enough shape for you to be able to

484
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: make a good comparison. But this is to try and

485
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: make the the conditions as ideal as possible so that

486
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: you can at least narrow things down. You know, the

487
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: goal really is to see if you can eliminate that

488
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: gun from suspicion, because if you can, then you know

489
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: you're on the wrong track and you can go direct

490
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: your attention elsewhere and not waste time on something that

491
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: ultimately is a dead end. So um yeah, I mean

492
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: that's that's your basic approach. It's kind of interesting, like

493
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: the whole process of developing this. I mean, there were

494
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: there were earlier UH forensics experts who would compare bullets.

495
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: They didn't have the luxury of a comparison macroscope to use,

496
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: so in many cases they were using photography. They would

497
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: take um pictures of these bullets and try and enlarge

498
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: the photographs as large as they could and compare them

499
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: that way, and try and find as many points of

500
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: comparison as they could between the two to determine whether

501
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: or not a bullet was in fact fired by the

502
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: same weapon as another bullet. So again, points of comparison,

503
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: just like with fingerprints, you know, you look for a

504
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: certain number, and if you you figure that if you

505
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: find now uh like a dozen or two dozen points

506
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: of comparison that are identical, the chances of that being

507
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: just coincidence are pretty slim. So that's when you sit

508
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: there and say, no, I'm pretty sure this bullet was

509
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: fired by the same gun as the one that I tested.

510
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: And another thing that that Goddard did along with his partner, um,

511
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: back in the very early days of all this, he

512
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: started they started compiling a database of information about different

513
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: weapons UM, which is, if you think about it, rather

514
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: crucial uh to doing this because it allows you to

515
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: know you know in which direction and which angle a

516
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: particular manufacturers uh lands are going to show up inside

517
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: the barrel. UM helps you eliminate you know, they can

518
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: look at a bullet and go, oh, well, I know

519
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: that it's not this or this or this or this,

520
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: and by the scientific method, I've at least narrowed it

521
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: down to one manufacturer and from there, you know, and

522
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: and having all that information in a database and comparing

523
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: the weapons and I'm sorry, the bullets side by side,

524
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: it gives you, um the ability to scientifically rule things

525
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: out step by step. And he really created a method

526
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: and a plan for doing this that set the stage

527
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: for what we know as modern ballistics work. Yeah, and

528
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: it's if you read about again, I do urge you

529
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: to check out more information about the progression of of

530
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: keep gathering this information because it goes beyond just comparing

531
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: bullets to each other. The history of forensics is pretty

532
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: fascinating and in some ways sometimes darkly humorous and in

533
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: some cases just bizarre. Like you'll you'll find out about

534
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: people sheriffs who found a victim who had um a

535
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: hole in their shirt and there was suspicion that perhaps

536
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 1: a a gun had the person had been shot by

537
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: a gun and then a bullet had toward the whole.

538
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: So the sheriff would take the shirt out to a

539
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: firing range and fire bullets into it to see if

540
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: the tears that were made by the bullets were similar.

541
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: To the one that was on the shirt in the

542
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: first place. Well, they can tell um whether a wound

543
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: is an entrance wound or an exit wound somewhat by

544
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: the the type of hole that it leaves. I mean,

545
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: if you're um, right on top of somebody, uh, it

546
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: will um do more damage. If you're firing at somebody

547
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: at point blank range. Um, then if you are farther away.

548
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: But you can tell by the direction of the fabric,

549
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: you know, if it if it's going into the wound,

550
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: then you could see uh generally that it's probably an

551
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,719
Speaker 1: entrance wound. And if the fibers are are spreading outward,

552
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: then it's probably. And it depends on the bullet too.

553
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: Of course, there are bullets that do a lot more

554
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: damage on on one side or another, so that that

555
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: factors into it too. Of course they'll talk about things

556
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: like blood spatter. Um. I have a great story here,

557
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: I want to I want to tell them so all right,

558
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: So in uh in nineteen o three, a fellow named E. J.

559
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: Churchill in London, England, provided testimony uh do testimony that

560
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: regarded an experiment he had performed that involved shooting bullets

561
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: into sheep's skulls. Yeah, so skulls of sheep, not actual sheep.

562
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: At this point that the sheep have already shuffled off

563
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: the wooly mortal coil and their skulls have remained. And

564
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: what had happened was, um, it was all revolving around

565
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: a case where there was a young woman who or

566
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: a woman, I don't know if she was young, actually

567
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: a woman who was shot and killed in Essex, England,

568
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,719
Speaker 1: and uh, they figured that she had been shot by

569
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: a thirty two caliber revolver, and so Churchill took a

570
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: similar revolver with the same sort of ammunition and a

571
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: whole bunch of sheep skulls and started shooting the sheep

572
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: skulls at various distances to determine to kind of compare

573
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: the damage done, to see how far away the shooter

574
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: might have been from the victim by observing, you know,

575
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 1: the damage done to the sheep skulls, and he came

576
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: to the conclusion that the the revolver was shot somewhere

577
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: between six and twelve inches away from the victim, and

578
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: this was used. This testimony was used in the court case.

579
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: In fact, the the accused suspect was found guilty and

580
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: put to death. So the experiments early on were very practical,

581
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,320
Speaker 1: you know, the idea of we have this one set

582
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: of circumstances, we need to try and recreate it as

583
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: closely as possible to to deter whether or not the

584
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: scenario we have in our mind is actually at all accurate.

585
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 1: And uh, and you know, like I said, the history

586
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: of forensics is filled with stories that make that one

587
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 1: seem tame and boring in comparison. Well, and and there

588
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 1: are others that are oddly similar, um, that make you

589
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: realize that it isn't always exact because um. Ramslin mentioned

590
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 1: a case that happened in Oklahoma where a robber used

591
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 1: a three seven magnum and uh, there was a witness

592
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 1: and he shot her right in the head. I'm just sorry, um.

593
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: And uh what happened was the bullet went into her skull,

594
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,800
Speaker 1: but it traveled around the inside of her skull before leaving,

595
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: and she ended up surviving and testifying against the robber.

596
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: On In another case, Uh, somebody got shot in the

597
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 1: wrist with a twenty two, which is a much smaller

598
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 1: caliber bullet um, and the bullet went into a vein,

599
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: traveled into the heart and killed the persons don't always

600
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: do well. And I also think I've even heard of

601
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: people getting shot in the head and the bullet hits

602
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: the skull and doesn't penetrate the skull, but rather goes

603
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: underneath the skin, travels around the skull, and pops out

604
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 1: the other side without actually penetrating the skull itself. I remember,

605
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: I distinctly remember when I was living in North Carolina,

606
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: a police dog getting shot in the head and that happening.

607
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 1: It's yeah, uh, yeah, this is getting really much more

608
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,439
Speaker 1: gruesome than I had intended. You don't mean, I don't

609
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: mean for it to be gruesome, but I think it's

610
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: a situation. Well, I mean, the dog, the dog lives. Um,

611
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: it's a it's a situation that shows you that, you know,

612
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: we sort of assume that if you get shot, if

613
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: you get shot in the right place and at the

614
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: bright distance, that you know, they're a few chances that

615
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: you're gonna make it if somebody's doing what they're supposed

616
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: to be or what they intend to do, let's say,

617
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,760
Speaker 1: with the weapon. Um. But bullets don't always behave themselves,

618
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: which is why these ballistic forensics are so important because

619
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: they you know, they've gotten it down to a science,

620
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:16,359
Speaker 1: so at least you have a better idea of what's

621
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: going on. And we should also point out that that this,

622
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: you know, we've been talking a lot about bullets. Uh,

623
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: the story is completely different if you were to talk

624
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: about things like shotguns. They do not have the rifled barrels.

625
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: So I mean you're firing shot at that point, not

626
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: not a little lots of little balls. Usually occasionally you

627
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: might have a slug shot slug, but at any rate, yeah,

628
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: taser's yeah, totally different story there. But in those cases

629
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: it's that you have to look for different things. You

630
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: can't you know, obviously you can't compare bullets like you

631
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: could with rifled weapons. Um. And in fact, Scott Doyle

632
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: on his site rights, it should be noted that not

633
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 1: all firearms lead consistent, reproducible marks. But overall, there's been

634
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: my experience that around eighty percent of the firearms that

635
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: I examine produce what is sometimes called a mechanical fingerprint

636
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: on the bullets and cartridge cases that pass through them.

637
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: So it is possible even for you to get a

638
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: gun that, through some reason or another, Uh, the marks

639
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 1: that come out the end up on the bullets and

640
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: the cartridges are not I'm not reproducible, and it could

641
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,959
Speaker 1: just be that there's, you know, some sort of weird

642
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 1: faulty part of that gun. You know, it's there's a

643
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: lot of different factors that could that could cause that.

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00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 1: And in those cases, of course, then you can't you know,

645
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: the ballistics evidence as far as comparing bullets to each

646
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: other is no longer really reliable. You have to rely

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00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: on other kinds of evidence in in that uh, in

648
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: that sort of case, I would be interesting to know

649
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 1: if any UH law enforcement authorities who have worked with

650
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: forensics and ballistics have are listening to our show, you know,

651
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: so please let us know if you you are, because

652
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: this is interesting stuff, and thank you for the work

653
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: that you do because it makes a difference. Yeah, we

654
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 1: had some helicopter pilots right in after we did our

655
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: helicopter episode, which was kind of cool. No one offered

656
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: to take me on a trip. It's not a it's

657
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 1: not criticism, it's just a statement of fact. I think

658
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: he's hinting, even after I said distinctly that that's on

659
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 1: my bucket list anyway. What I have not had my

660
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: cheerios this morning all right, so we're gonna wrap this

661
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 1: discussion up anyway. Yeah, that's It's a pretty fascinating form

662
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: of of of forensics, a scientific inquiry really. Um, I

663
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: found it very interesting when I was reading up on it,

664
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: and like I said, the history in particular I found fascinating.

665
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 1: If you guys have any subjects you would like us

666
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 1: to tackle in future episodes, you can let us know

667
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 1: on Facebook or Twitter are handled. There is text stuff

668
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 1: H s W or you can shoot us an email

669
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: at the address tech stuff at Discovery dot com and

670
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 1: Chris and I will talk to you again really soon.

671
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 1: Be sure to check out our new video podcast, Stuff

672
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: from the Future. Join how Stuff Work staff as we

673
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: explore the most promising and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow. The

674
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Speaker 1: hou stepp Works iPhone app has arrived. Download it today

675
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 1: on iTunes, brought to you by the reinvented two thousand

676
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Speaker 1: twelve camera. It's ready, are you