1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you from how stupp 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about a 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: TV topic that a lot of you lovely listeners have 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: asked us to investigate. Yeah, and that is the barrier 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: gaze trope, also known as the dead lesbian syndrome or 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: dead lesbian trope. Basically, things reached a fever pitch recently 8 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: with lesbian and by characters specifically getting killed off of shows, 9 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: and a lot of you guys wrote in Yeah, and 10 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: if you aren't familiar with the trope, which honestly I 11 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: was not before doing research for this episode, you can 12 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: already tell just by the names of barrier gaze and 13 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: what's the lesbian dead lesbian dead lesbian syndrome? Probably not 14 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: positive depictions going on. And it's an extension too, of 15 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,559 Speaker 1: conversations that you and I have had and also when 16 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: we had a transactivist and friend, Raquel Willison here just 17 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: about the issue of the tragic queer character, both in 18 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: literature and big screen and small screen. And today we're 19 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: really focusing in on television and why people are specially 20 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: concerned and calling it out today as in, like right 21 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: this very day, the day you're listening to this these days. Okay, Well, 22 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: first we do want to give you a breakdown basically 23 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: of what this trope is, what it means, what it indicates, 24 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: and how it sort of exists at a cross section 25 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: of a few other tropes. But basically barrier gays or 26 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: dead lesbian syndrome tropes involved gay characters getting killed off. 27 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: Not surprisingly, that's pretty pretty self evident. Uh, it's another 28 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,040 Speaker 1: way of not allowing them happy endings. It's obviously the 29 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: most extreme version of not allowing them happy endings. Uh. 30 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: And it, like Kristen said, it goes along with that 31 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,959 Speaker 1: tragic gay or tragic queer character trope of like you've 32 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 1: got to be punished for your subversive activity or going 33 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: against the norm. Um. And as TV tropes dot Com 34 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 1: explained it, it's a great, great resource. Uh. This exists 35 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: at the intersection of the sex is evil trope and 36 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: the all gays are promiscuous tropes, so sex is evil. 37 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: You might also see that, of course, and like horror 38 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: movies when the virgin has sex and she's like instantly killed. 39 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 1: Horror movies are a trope um. Corn ucopia, oh, coucopia 40 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: of tropes solicition. I take that to Thanksgiving with me. 41 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: But it doesn't have to happen to LGBT characters in relationships. 42 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: They don't have to actually be having sex or be 43 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: dating for them to be killed off. In case you're wondering, Um, 44 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: you also might have the trope of the psycho lesbian 45 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: or the depraved homosexuals tropes. Um. Basically, uh, the gay 46 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,399 Speaker 1: character or you know, the LGBT character in question might 47 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: simply be getting punished, especially if he or she tried 48 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: to pervert another character on the show. So if you 49 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: had a lesbian character confessing her feelings to a presumably 50 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: straight lady character, um, that character is probably gonna get 51 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: killed off. Yeah, because if you look at film history, 52 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: gay characters have typically been evil because of their deviant sexuality. 53 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: And that also ties into the trope of all gays 54 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: or promiscuous. They're evil by virtue of their sexual proclivities 55 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: and insatiable sexual appetite. This is also something that we 56 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: talked about a lot in our Bisexual Erasure podcast. Um, 57 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: and if they aren't evil, then they must die, you know, 58 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: and the usually die in a magic Pixie dream girl 59 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: kind of way in order to further a straight person's narrative, 60 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: or they might even uh serve the role uh that 61 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: you see often with like the magical black person who's 62 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: so wise hashtag legend of bagg Er Vance. I don't 63 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: know why I needed a hashtag that. That's just the 64 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: title of a movie where where hashtag Morgan Freeman. Yes, um, 65 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: where the gay character doesn't really have any storyline to themselves, 66 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: but they're just there to share their gay wisdom and 67 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: then disappear gay wisdom in order to though only develop 68 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: with stre people. That the plot of Queer Eye for 69 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: the straight guy gay wisdom. I think so. Um yeah, 70 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: I love that you brought up the manic Pixie dream 71 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: girl because while the manic Pixie dream Girl is punished 72 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: for her cuteness and quirkiness by having to date the 73 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: whole the drag of a main character hashtag exact breath. 74 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: We just hashtag all of the name so we mentioned 75 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: hashtag zac breath. Listeners are saying, um, well, the the 76 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 1: magical gay character just gets killed off. Um it ties 77 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: into these other troops. One is too good for this 78 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: sinful earth or the heroic sacrifice trope, um with the 79 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: justification that you know, these people are just they're too good. 80 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: And you saw that trip start to evolve as our 81 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 1: attitudes towards LGBT people I r L in real life 82 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: started to improve. So like, well, all right, we don't 83 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: want to necessarily like punish someone for being gay because 84 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: it's not so devian anymore. We're more accepting now, so 85 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: let's just kill them off because they're too good, they're 86 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: too cure. They're still not being humanized as characters. But 87 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: caveat here. A queer character dying on screen does not 88 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: necessarily always meet the qualification of this barrier gaze trope, 89 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: because if you're working with on anyone can die trope 90 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: situation allah Game of Thrones, it's probably not there to 91 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: teach anyone anything or indicate prejudice of some sort. It's 92 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: just George RR. Martin being like I love killing people. 93 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: I love fred Red wedding exactly, and especially when you 94 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: have so many characters on Game of Thrones who do 95 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: have sort of fluid sexuality. Yeah, um, it's like, oh, well, good, 96 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: so they're just being killed off because on the way 97 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,559 Speaker 1: that any other human character would be killed off off 98 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: it's equal killing, you know, and that's what we're really 99 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: about here, equal killing, equal character murder. Before we go 100 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: any further in this podcast episode, though, we must issue 101 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: a spoiler alert, and I mean and that goes out 102 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: saying like murdering characters is like the whole topic of 103 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: this spoiler. So the first spoiler alert applies to show 104 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: the one hundred, because an incident in this show is 105 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: really what sparked a lot of conversation and backlash against 106 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: Barrier Gaze and has now reached the industry Hollywood that's 107 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: now grappling with, well, how should we do this? Because 108 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: the fan outrage was so loud and so strong when 109 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: a beloved character, very tough woman, luxA, was killed and 110 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: it seemed like she was senselessly killed. Yeah, and that 111 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: was the tipping point. But she was not the first 112 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: such character to die. So in February, in March of 113 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: like a whole Messa women were killed off. You had 114 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: Rose killed. She was on Jane the Virgin. That was 115 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: in February. She was killed off. Then let Pa on 116 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: The One, then Kira on The Magicians, and then Denise 117 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: on The Walking Dad, who I think got a like 118 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: an arrow through the eye as she was talking. Yeah, yeah, 119 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: a lot of these barrier gays deaths and with just 120 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: stray bullets, they like catch other people's bullets or throw 121 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: themselves in front of someone else, sort of sacrificial lamb style. 122 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: But in the in the case of Alexa, you know, 123 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: the bullet I believe that killed her um wasn't meant 124 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: for her. And people were especially outrage because not only 125 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: is she a queer character, but in the story arc 126 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: she had just reached this pivotal moment with a romantic plotline, 127 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: and I think that they had finally had sex for 128 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: the first time and then boomed death. Yeah, well exactly. 129 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:55,119 Speaker 1: And I mean these women in that show were allowed 130 00:08:55,160 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: to be fierce warriors, independent, they had agency. Alexa in particular, 131 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: was her Clans warrior commander, and she was in a 132 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: relationship with Clark, who was the leader of her own people. 133 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: And these Clexa fans, because everybody loves to put names together, 134 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: Clexa fans did have a real reason to hope. I mean, 135 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: they were in contact with series creator Jason Rothenberg and 136 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: his staff. They were talking on Twitter, they were talking 137 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: all over the internet, and they'd really engaged the audience 138 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: and encouraged their love of Clark and Alexa. They were like, yeah, 139 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: these are great characters. Were glad you love them, continue 140 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: to love them. We're gonna make them fall in love 141 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: with each other. But it's gonna be complicated because you'll 142 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: love that even more because that's how relationships were. But unfortunately, 143 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: the actress Alicia debnham Carey who played Alexa, was getting 144 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: ready to move over to Fear the Walking Debt. She 145 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: got a new job, so they had to kill her off. 146 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: Just so happens that her character was a really powerful lesbian. Uh. 147 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: So she ends up taking a stray bullet and all 148 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: the nerd rage. But so you mentioned like, oh, but 149 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,359 Speaker 1: she had just reached this pivotal point in her relationship 150 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: and character. The audience loved her, and then all of 151 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: a sudden she dies. That exactly parallels earlier nerd rage 152 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: from two thousand two. Hollywood Reporter read all about this. 153 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: Uh when Tara on Buffy was killed. So, as Hollywood 154 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 1: Reporter points out, both of these characters, Tara and Lexa 155 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: were shown consummating their relationships with their female love interest 156 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: just minutes before getting killed. Both were hit by stray bullets. 157 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: Meant for another person. Both died in their lover's arms, 158 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: and both have led to fandom outrage, and in the 159 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: case of Alexa, the fans also felt bamboozled in a 160 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: way because they felt like their their fandom had kind 161 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: of been used against them to sort of draw them 162 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: in with the what they felt like was a direct 163 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: contact with the showrunner UM and suddenly the thing that 164 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: they loved and we're rooting for was taken away for 165 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: them from them UM. So that started the hashtag LGBT 166 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:16,239 Speaker 1: Fans Deserve Better on Twitter, and they're now two websites, 167 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: We Deserve Better dot com and LGBT Fans Deserve Better 168 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: dot com, which has a ton of great resources if 169 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: you want to learn more about these tropes and just 170 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 1: about l g B t Q I a representation UM 171 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: in film and television. Uh, that's quickly developed into a 172 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: great source for that. Yeah. But they also channeled their 173 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: frustration and nerd rage into in real life activism as well. 174 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: They helped raise tens of thousands of dollars for this 175 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: group called the Trevor Project, which is a nonprofit focused 176 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: on l g B t Q youth suicide prevention. So 177 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 1: this is not just something that you can dismiss with like, oh, 178 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: those are angry fan girls and fan boys. No, these 179 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: are people who are putting their money where their mouth 180 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: is and saying, Okay, are you going to continue to 181 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: show negative representations or not allow gay characters to have 182 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: happy endings? Well, we are going to counteract that in 183 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: real life and try to counteract any effect that those 184 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: negative depictions might have and support our fellow l g 185 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: B t q i A community members. Which makes sense 186 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: when I r L again, I think this episode might 187 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: be the most times we've ever used I r L 188 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: and I'm totally cool with it, um, but also to 189 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: the betrayal of being a queer fan sitting there and 190 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 1: seeing this happening, and then when you turn off a 191 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: TV and you have to walk outside, go to school 192 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: and be in public and also be concerned for your 193 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: safety potentially, you know, like there there are a lot 194 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: of layers to this. This is about a lot more 195 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: than just having a beloved character taken away. And as 196 00:12:55,120 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: a result of this fandom force, the mains stream media 197 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: has taken note and uh Rothenberg, the show creator, directly 198 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: apologized UM and it sparked a lot of coverage from 199 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: Auto Straddle in particular. Auto Straddle always sit on the 200 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: podcast all the time. They're a terrific site for all 201 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,719 Speaker 1: things queer, so check them out if you haven't already. Um. 202 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: But they put together a list of killed off lesbian 203 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 1: and by characters beginning in nineteen seventies six and even 204 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: looking outside of shows in the United States, and they 205 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: revised it to then include a total of one hundred 206 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: sixties six. When they opened up, you know, the comment 207 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: thread to fan saying, Okay, who have we missed? And 208 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: boy is it startling how many they did miss Yeah, 209 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: And you know, because that list does open it up 210 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: to shows all over the world. Germans, you've got a 211 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: lot of dead lesbians on your media's. There was that 212 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: one show in particular too where I can't remember what 213 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,199 Speaker 1: it wants. There were a lot yeah German listeners, if 214 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: you know what we're talking about. Because scrolling through it 215 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: was like every other one, it was like good dust house. 216 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: That's and that's the well my favorites. So anyway, because 217 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 1: so many of the shows were not U S Bace shows, 218 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: I had not seen a lot of them. Um. And 219 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: some of my favorites though, and that's a weird thing 220 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: to say your favorite character dirforite characters who were then 221 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: also killed. Um, we're definitely Rachel from House of Cards. Um, 222 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: she's a bisexual character who had met a terrible fate, 223 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: poor thing, bless her heart. But also from Boardwalk Empire, 224 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: one of my favorite shows that I legit miss being 225 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: on the air. Um, Angela Darmody who was Jimmy Darmity's wife. 226 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: Uh so another bisexual character and her lover, Louise Bryant. 227 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: They were killed in this tragic misunderstanding. This gangster show 228 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: s up to kill Jimmy, but he gets there and 229 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: it's only Jimmy's wife And when her lover comes out 230 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: of the bathroom, he thinks it's gonna be Jimmy because 231 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: there's his wife in bed, right, so that's got to 232 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: be Jimmy. No, it's another woman, and he like confusedly 233 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: and panic e lishly shoots both women and it's it 234 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: was horrible. It was so sad, panicky lishly. Also, it's 235 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: my new favorite advert, you're welcome. Well, I just Angela 236 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: Darmony's character was so great on on board Walk Empire, 237 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: And if you haven't watched the show, I recommend you 238 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: do it. Um. It's a good binge watching show. Um. 239 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: And it kind of follows a pattern that I casually 240 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: noticed scrolling through that auto straddle list, where it seems 241 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: like for lesbian and bisexual women who were killed off, 242 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: there's also that negative undercurrent of uh, the deceitful lesbian 243 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: and by actual woman usually she's perhaps like cheating on 244 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: her husband with a woman and he is then enraged 245 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: and kills her. There's a lot of murder by jealous 246 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: lovers going on as well. Now. The thing is, though, 247 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: all of these character deaths go back way farther, way 248 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: farther back in time than Lexa getting killed on the 249 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: one hundred, and both the character killings and the audience 250 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: reactions are tied into a lot of views about the acceptance, 251 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: honestly of LGBT people in real life, in reality. And 252 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: so we are going to dive into some of that 253 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: historical representation of LGBT folks on screen. We come right 254 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: back from a quick break, so to put a little 255 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: historical context on this conversation, as we like to do you 256 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: you here at stuff Mom never told you. We're relying 257 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: a lot on a book by Stephen Shropiano called the 258 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: Primetime Closet a history of gays and lesbians on TV, 259 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: and as it's probably not surprising as the l g 260 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: B t q I A community has gotten louder and 261 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: more visible off screen, uh, they've become more fed up 262 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: with that lackluster and often discriminatory media representation, which today 263 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: is mirroring what happened back in the sixties and seventies, 264 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 1: which is when we see the first lesbians in particular 265 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 1: start dying on television. Yeah, and so if we go 266 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: back to the nineteen sixties, basically through the mid sixties, 267 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: the discussion and representation of gay people on TV was 268 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: generally limited to talk shows. I thought that was interesting. 269 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: I had never thought about that really, And that is because, uh, 270 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: you know, the same way that today, on like sixty 271 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: Minutes or Barbara Walters or something like that, they might 272 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: take a social issue that a lot of people are 273 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: scared of, like heroin abuse or opiate overdoses and go 274 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: dive deep into it for an hour to address people's fears. 275 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: The same freaking thing was happening with LGBT people back 276 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: in the day. So in response to viewers presumed concern 277 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: over gay people these talk shows. Uh, we're investigating homosexuality 278 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: along the same lines as alcoholism or drug abuse, because, 279 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: like Kristen was saying, as the LGBT community is getting bigger, 280 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: more vocal, more visible, so is the concern and the 281 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: homophobia around them. Well, at this time it was mostly 282 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,719 Speaker 1: focused towards gam in because at the time people were like, 283 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: what lesbians, that's just you have some like weird problem 284 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: where maybe your husband isn't satisfying you. But gay men, 285 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: we're watching you. That's deviant. And I would also like 286 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: a quick side note when you said talk shows, the 287 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: first thing I thought of was like Jerry Springer style 288 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: talk shows. But I don't know that Jerry Springer show 289 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: is not on in the sixties and seventies. But I 290 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: would imagine that you would also see them on daytime 291 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: talk shows, but more in the freak show style of 292 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: look at these you know, she didn't know her husband 293 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: was gay kind of thing. Just like again, being treated 294 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: as characters rather than people. Uh. And in nine seven 295 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 1: oh Mike Wallace and CBS News produced a special report 296 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: on gay people literally called CBS News the Homosexuals. I mean, 297 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: it would be funny if it weren't so awful, right, 298 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: I mean, very much a product of its time. But 299 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: Mike Wallace interviews all these gay men and describes them 300 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: as quote the most despised minority group in the United States, which, Okay, 301 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: he might not be off the mark there, but then 302 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: he starts talking to psychoanalysts, and this is really where 303 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: the the thing just goes right off the side of 304 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: the cliff. Yeah, because one of those psychoanalysts that he 305 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: talked to emphasized being gay as a mental illness which 306 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: has reached epidemiological proportions. He also indicated that it's a 307 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: learned behavior tied with an unnaturally strong tie with the mother, 308 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: which disrupts normal gender identity, triggers separation anxiety, and prevents 309 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:49,959 Speaker 1: him from forming heterosexual relationships in adulthood. Oh good, So 310 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: we're not quite past Freud yet, we're still very very 311 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,679 Speaker 1: afraid of what it means to be gay. But not 312 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 1: too long after that's b S Report comes out, you 313 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: have some massive cultural shifts going on, because in June 314 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: n sixty nine you get the Stonewall Riots, which marks 315 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: basically the beginning of the modern vocal gay liberation movement, 316 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: and that means more than ever. The community is more visible, 317 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: and it's a more viable political force, and quick Stone 318 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: Wall shout out to trans women of color. Yeah, and 319 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: and so things start falling like dominoes when it comes 320 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: to the gay rights movement. In nineteen seventy three, the 321 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: American Bar Association passed a resolution supporting the repeal of 322 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: state sodomy laws, and just a year later, in seventy four, 323 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: homosexuality is finally removed from the from the American Psychiatric 324 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: Association's list of mental disorders. The same year, um you 325 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: get federal anti gay discrimination bills introduced into the House, 326 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: and it failed, but similar measures were passing in cities 327 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: and counties around the country, and all of us is 328 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,719 Speaker 1: being mirrored on television in the nineteen seventies where you 329 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: actually start to see gay characters on TV medical dramas 330 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: like The bold Ones Medical Center, which I like how 331 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: it's like you, well, you know what you're getting with 332 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: that one, and Marcus Welby m D. Yeah. And I mean, 333 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: just like we've seen in these in these trends we've 334 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 1: been talking about, in response to the growing gay rights movement, 335 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 1: LGBT characters are starting to get treated with a more 336 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: liberal attitude. That's great, right, yeah, more liberal attitude, but 337 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: but we're still scared of them, right, that that fear 338 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: and condemnation that sort of pervaded all of the earlier 339 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: talk shows and CBS specials um was just replaced with pity, intolerance, 340 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: not acceptance and treating them like human people. Yeah, I 341 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: mean still there's a there's this old saying that I 342 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 1: remember from my Christian upbringing of love the sinner, hate 343 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: the sin, and very much that that kind of mindset 344 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 1: with this, oh well, we accept you, but not actually really, 345 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: because we think that inside your core something is broken, right, 346 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: and so on these shows, if it was the patient 347 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,479 Speaker 1: who was gay, Uh, the sexuality itself was not treated 348 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: as a disease, which okay, good um, but that's so 349 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: called or so deemed sexual confusion or homosexual panic was 350 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: often part of the plots medical mystery and linked with 351 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: some other condition like diabetes, heart disease, or ulcers. You 352 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: know how these medical shows even today always have to 353 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 1: have some like underlying drama driving the plot. It's not 354 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 1: just like she came in with a headache. It's like 355 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: she came in with a headache because she's in the 356 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 1: medal of homosexual panic. I'm trying to now imagine an 357 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: episode of House or It's like, well, it turns out 358 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 1: he's gay, that's it. So in other words, basically, with 359 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: these plotlines, you had to resolve the questionable sexual orientation 360 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: before you could uncover and treat that underlying medical condition. 361 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: And of course being gay was usually linked with a 362 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: parent and or just choosing the lifestyle. So, for instance, 363 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 1: this one example that author Stephen Tropiano gives is you 364 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: have this man in this one episode on a medical 365 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: show who he's diabetic, He's gaining a lot of weight, 366 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: He's miserable, and so is his wife. His miserable wife 367 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: is complaining about how basically she doesn't get laid anymore 368 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: and she wants to divorce him. And their son is 369 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 1: quiet and withdrawn. So, like all of these health problems 370 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: combined with social and marital and parental problems, what's going on? 371 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: Diagnosis gay? Yeah, Basically, the doctor figures out that this 372 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: diabetic man is gay, and the diagnosis, so to speak, 373 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 1: basically sends him into deep depression and he attempts sue 374 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: is side, which, hello, we already have like a super 375 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: high rate of LGBT people in this country being more 376 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 1: likely to attempt suicide. So the character attempts suicide, goes 377 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: to a shrink. Oh, but it's a happy end in Christina. 378 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: What happens, right, Well, he goes to the shrink and 379 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: he finds out that he's not actually gay. It's just 380 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: his fear of homosexuality that's at the root of a 381 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: neurosis oh called internalized homophobia. Right, so thank god? Right, Like, 382 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: he's not actually gay, you just hate gay people, and 383 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: therefore he doesn't have to die. Yeah, exactly. Um, and 384 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: if we hot forward across a lot of doctors and 385 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: nurse characters at this time who are never really fully 386 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: fleshed out, but they might be gay and they don't 387 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: necessarily die, but they're just sort of like sideshow freaks really, 388 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: right Like, So if a doctor comes out, it's usually 389 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: not going to be a recurring character a doctor a nurse. 390 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: It's it's going to be someone who's in there to 391 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: stir up a bit of drama. And because they've stirred 392 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 1: up drama, they're put either their lives or the patient's 393 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: life at risks. So you gotta go, sister, get out 394 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,360 Speaker 1: of here, Get out of here and literally get out 395 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: of here one woman did. Okay, that's a weird way 396 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: to say that the character was killed off. So when 397 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: we get to the nineteen seventy six, there's a soap 398 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 1: opera called Executive Suite, and this is the origin of 399 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,400 Speaker 1: the so called dead lesbian syndrome. So on an episode 400 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: of Executive Suite, there's this woman Julie who confesses to 401 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: another woman, Leona, that hey, Leona, I'm a lesbian. And 402 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: Leona is like, oh my god, Julie, I'm a lesbian too, 403 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 1: and I'm very attracted to you. And but they're both like, 404 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: but diagnosis gay. This can't be right. And so Julie 405 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: gets so upset and she rushes after Leona, who's just like, 406 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: you know, trying to I guess, trying to run away 407 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: from her lesbianism. And Julie gets hit by a truck. 408 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: And then get this Julie's husband, because of course here 409 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: we go with like the deceitful sexuality thing. Julie's husband 410 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 1: then blames Leona, and Leona has a nervous breakdown. So 411 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: we only have one dead lesbian here. The other one 412 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 1: is safely tucked away in a some kind of mental institution. Yeah, 413 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: so good, we're all safe, right, the lesbians were putting 414 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:35,959 Speaker 1: them away. Um, but yeah, that that executive suite has 415 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: always cited as the first time you start to see 416 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: lesbian or by or gay characters just getting killed off 417 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 1: his punishment not having to quit their line of work 418 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: as a doctor on a show. And even though old 419 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 1: Twitter and snap chits didn't exist, there was protest. So 420 00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: as gay advocacy groups and activists in all eyes started 421 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: noticing this pattern on television, especially on primetime TV, they 422 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:12,880 Speaker 1: began to stand up against it, especially because primetime television 423 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 1: was critically symbolic in their struggle to gain acceptance in 424 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: wider society. Because it's like, if if you can be 425 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: portrayed as an actual human person who's not broken, you 426 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: simply like everyone else, possesses sexual orientation of some sort, 427 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: then that is a sign of a cultural shift in 428 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: a positive direction. Um and gay activists succeeded in sending 429 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: a clear message to television producers and broadcasters and listen, 430 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: these negative, malicious stereotypes are not gonna be tolerated. So 431 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: history is repeating itself really in terms of activism around it. Yeah, 432 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: it seems like the more vocal and this is not 433 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: just for LGBT fix but the more vocal a marginalized 434 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: group is the harder and weirder. The pushback is from 435 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: dominant groups. And we are going to get into this. Um. So, listeners, 436 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: if you have insights, please share them with us. But 437 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,959 Speaker 1: I am now curious, since this what's going on in 438 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: the seventies and uh, gay advocacy groups were making headway, 439 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: what impact then the AIDS crisis had on all of 440 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: it this? If it stalled it, if it pushed it back. Um, well, 441 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: I think that would play into and please, I do 442 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: want to hear from listeners, but I think that would 443 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: play into the pity the gay person. Um, don't fear 444 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: the gay person or condemn the gay person as much, 445 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: at least as it played out on TV or in 446 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: mini series or things like that. But here's the thing, Caroline. 447 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: Straight characters are killed off all of the time. It's true. 448 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: What's wrong with that? We're going to talk about that 449 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: when we get right back from a quick break. So 450 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: in the words with Jerry Seinfeld, scene field as I 451 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: like to call, what's the deal with the straight characters dying? 452 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: And we're not calling it the barrier straights trope. I'm 453 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: playing like an an culturish devil's advocate right now, and 454 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: I really don't like it. Well. Reese over at Auto 455 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: Straddle puts it really well. Um, so I will quote her. 456 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: Reese says, we comprise such a teeny tiny fraction of 457 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: characters on television to begin with, that killing us off 458 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: so haphazardly feels especially cruel. And this is something that 459 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: Dorothy Snarker love your Last Name Dot echoes over at 460 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: Hollywood Reporter. She says, it's not that lesbian and bisexual 461 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: characters shouldn't ever die on screen, far from it, but 462 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: currently our track magic endings are shown at an inordinately 463 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: higher rate than our happy ones. Yeah, I mean painting. 464 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: And this was something too that this makes me think 465 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: a lot of Raquel Willis in our conversation with her 466 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: about trans characters on television in particular, and just her 467 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: desire and that we share with her to see portrayals 468 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: of trans people who aren't tragic, who can fall in love, 469 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: who can like live a life like everyone else you know, 470 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: and and just be characters, um, rather than having to 471 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: be the tragic other. Um. And you also have to 472 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: keep in mind statistically, just the disproportionate rate of these 473 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,239 Speaker 1: kinds of characters being killed off if you look if 474 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: you compare to population wise, not only their representation on screen, um, 475 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: but also more broadly, Yeah, I mean LGBT characters are 476 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: super underrepresented on TV, but their deaths are overrepresented. And 477 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: so basically, if one straight character is killed, there's still 478 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: going to be a whole mess of other straight characters left, 479 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: a whole mess of home, a whole mess of them, 480 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: and this shows lousy with them. Um. But if a 481 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: gay character is skilled, it's not like there's going to 482 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: be so many other LGBT characters in the wings too. 483 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: I don't want to say cushion the blow, but like 484 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: it's it's a harder hit basically character wise, if like 485 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: you're one gay character or you're like two gay characters 486 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: are killed off, and chances are that's not even going 487 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: to be a lead character, So you don't even have 488 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 1: a fully fleshed out like person there. They might just 489 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: beIN robbing up the storyline. Yeah. Um and Vox tallied 490 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: up all of the deaths, all the TV deaths from 491 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: seventy six to and they were focusing on American television 492 00:32:55,560 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: because they noticed especially with and they only do tie 493 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: it to um spoiler Ned Starks death on Game of 494 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: Thrones starting this trend of a lot of death on television. 495 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: So for an idea of just how deathly TV has become, 496 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: so Vox crunched the numbers and found the two characters 497 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: of all characters on TV died between the fall and 498 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: spring television seasons, and that about ten percent of those 499 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: were lgbt Q women. Interesting. Yeah, I mean, we we 500 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: do love statistics here, so I have some more for you. Um. 501 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: Auto Straddle also crunched some numbers and posted this fabulous 502 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: infographic that looked at lgbt Q characters deaths between nineteen 503 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: seventy six and twenty sixteen. Uh. They said that there 504 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: were more than fifteen hundred shows with straight characters and 505 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: just one hundred and ninety three featuring lesbian or by characters, 506 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 1: which is about eleven percent. Of those one shows, sixty 507 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: eight had dead lesbians, and about half of those were 508 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 1: shows where anyone can die, like a Game of Thrones. 509 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: And again, of the lesbian featuring shows, just sixteen had 510 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:24,399 Speaker 1: happy endings for lesbian and by characters. And the thing 511 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: that is emphasized over and over again is that, ay, 512 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 1: this is not great. Why are we over representing gay 513 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 1: characters death, Well, we just talked a lot about it. 514 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: But also this negative representation is reinforcing a lot of 515 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: cultural bs that is happening right now, because we all 516 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: want to see ourselves represented positively in media, right and 517 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: when LGBTQ kids or adults for that matter, only see 518 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: themselves as tools facing imminent demise, as Snarker writes, death 519 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: sadness and despair can seem like a self fulfilling prophecy. Yeah. 520 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: And and if you even see a gay character on television, 521 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: um GLAD studies this every year and keeps talies and 522 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:17,479 Speaker 1: um in. Out of one regular roles on broadcast TV, 523 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: only four percent or thirty five of them belonged to 524 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: l g b t Q characters. Um. So, first of all, 525 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 1: they're you're you're not even seeing them, But then when 526 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 1: you are, you're seeing them meet tragedy. And in the 527 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: context of our off screen wave of anti lgbt Q 528 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: sentiment and legislation like the whole bathroom bill issue that 529 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 1: is now made its way up to the Supreme Court. 530 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: Um and the fact that you can still be fired 531 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,439 Speaker 1: for your sexual orientation in most states. UM. And also 532 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: on top of that, issues like the super high unemployment 533 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:03,800 Speaker 1: rate among trans individuals, the homelessness rate among lgbt Q youth, 534 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 1: bullying UH, and links to attempted suicide and drug abuse, 535 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: like it's it's not offering very much, hope. You know 536 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: that's not exactly. You know, we watched TV a lot 537 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:21,240 Speaker 1: of times as an escape, right, but that's not an escape, 538 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: it's just a reinforcement. And I mean, tropes are tropes 539 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: for a reason, right. They exist as tropes because they 540 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: happen so often, and they are props for storylines that 541 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: are used so often that you can spot them, and 542 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: they are coded in a certain way so you know 543 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 1: what is happening and why something is happening. And to me, 544 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,800 Speaker 1: like we can live a lay filled it because otherwise 545 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: it's clearly just becoming lazy storytelling. At some point now 546 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: it's already become lazy storytelling. And so that's why it's 547 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: so interesting to study UH storylines that take this dead 548 00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: lesbian syndrome trope or this barrier gaze trope and put 549 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: a different bend in the storyline so that it is 550 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 1: tragic when a character dies, when a queer character dies, 551 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: when a character of color dies. Um, but that it 552 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be meaninglessly tragic. And an example of 553 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: that and major spoiler alert to Orange is the New Black. 554 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: Fans who are not caught up on the show, skip 555 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: ahead or just listen to another episode because this is 556 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: a big one. So in the latest season finale, pos 557 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: Se is tragically and senselessly killed during a peaceful protest 558 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: at the prison where the show takes place. Yeah, and 559 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: as you can imagine, people freaked out. I know, she 560 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: was one of my faves. She was probably my favorite. Um, 561 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: she was a great character. Her relationship with Taste, Yeah, 562 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 1: she's She's a great character on TV, but also a 563 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 1: great depiction of just just a kind like if you 564 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: were in real life, I would want to be friends 565 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 1: with you. Um. And and you can imagine that people 566 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: freaked out, not just because she was such a beloved character, 567 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: but here she has a queer character of color. And 568 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: Katherine Van Aaron Donk, another great name over at Vulture 569 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: in June really kind of investigated Pussy's death from the 570 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 1: perspective of all of the anger that fans were feeling, 571 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: especially through the lens of the Barrier Gaye trope, like 572 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: why do we have to kill off yet another queer 573 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: female character, and Van Aaron Donk basically comes to the 574 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: conclusion through her piece of like, well, this isn't the 575 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 1: same thing really as Barrier Gaze. Pussay's death was not 576 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: simply there to prop up a straight white character storyline, 577 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: even though a white character is technically the quote unquote 578 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: lead of that show. Yeah, if she had like taken 579 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: a bullet for Piper or something, we would be having 580 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: a different conversation, right, But pus Say is not the 581 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: only queer character on the show, not the only queer 582 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: character of color on the show. And she wasn't killed 583 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: because she was a queer woman. Yeah. And and clearly 584 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: her being senselessly killed by hired law enforcement UM in 585 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,320 Speaker 1: the case of the prison, by these correctional officers UM, 586 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 1: mirrors what is happening offscreen with police brutality and black 587 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 1: lives matter. And the entire episode became really a eulogy 588 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:47,320 Speaker 1: to Pussay, Yeah, and a eulogy for the black people 589 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 1: in this country who have been gunned down by police UM. 590 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: And it's also a commentary on our prison system, our 591 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 1: justice system. Uh, the fact that someone who was so beloved, 592 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: a character who was so beloved by the other characters 593 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: but also the audience could just be um wiped off 594 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: the face of the earth in just a moment like that, 595 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: in a moment that they were trying to restrain her 596 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:15,560 Speaker 1: and they accidentally killed her. It is senseless, but it 597 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: has so much meaning, and it was monumental for the 598 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 1: show and for the other characters. It wasn't treated as 599 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: just like and now the storyline progressed, right, and now 600 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: a joke from Pensa chucky right. And of course another 601 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: show and again massive spoiler alert, but another show that 602 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: really does kind of an interesting take on the traditional 603 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 1: barrier gaze trope is Black Mirror. They're all standalone episodes, 604 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: and the episode titled San Junipero, features two queer women 605 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: characters who fall in love. So you imagine, like, well, 606 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: tragedies right around the corner, and it kind of is, 607 00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 1: but there's a happy ending. Oh yeah, they pull this 608 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: off flawlessly. I thought I loved the episode. Um, how 609 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: do we even describe it? It's such a I don't 610 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: I want listeners to watch it because it really is 611 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: a beautiful episode and very unblack mirror and it's uh 612 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: and it's happy ending spoiler alert, um, But it doesn't. 613 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 1: While Yorki one of the characters, we know that her 614 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,279 Speaker 1: family was not accepting of her being a lesbian and 615 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: that when she came out, she uh left the house 616 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:36,800 Speaker 1: I believe, and was in a terrible car accident the 617 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 1: paralyzed her. Um. So you do have like that element 618 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 1: of punishment. But when it comes to their love story, 619 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: it's really pure and beautiful. You know, it's too It's 620 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: it's fun to watch because it's two young women being 621 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,319 Speaker 1: so giddy in their love for each other. And there's 622 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,600 Speaker 1: drama and there's conflict and should I should we do 623 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: I love you? Do I not? Do I want to 624 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: be with you? Um? And they do get to be together. 625 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,879 Speaker 1: But here's the twist, so again spoiler like if you're 626 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 1: still listening together, UM. But the whole thing is this 627 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: exists in the future, and in the future, when you die, 628 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: you have the opportunity to basically be uploaded to some 629 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:23,880 Speaker 1: spirit cloud. Basically Apple is our overlord, um. And it 630 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:28,800 Speaker 1: is through this program that these two women who would 631 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: not have otherwise been able to even meet or be together. 632 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 1: Uh got to not only meet and not only fall 633 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 1: in love and be giddy and have great sex, but 634 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 1: they got to go off into the sunset in a 635 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: jeep wrangler and live happily ever after together. So yes, 636 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 1: is their punishment? Is there? Uh the acknowledgement of life 637 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:54,360 Speaker 1: not being not easy for queer people. Yes, but through 638 00:42:55,120 --> 00:43:00,279 Speaker 1: death they get to live together forever. Um. And also 639 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:05,320 Speaker 1: the fact that we have Kelly Um who is proudly 640 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:10,320 Speaker 1: and openly bisexual, and she's a woman of color, and 641 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:15,279 Speaker 1: her character also was married and had a child. Um 642 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 1: and her husband and a daughter had had both since 643 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: died and chose not to go to uh the cloud. 644 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,319 Speaker 1: It chose not to go to the Steve Jobs heaven. Um. 645 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 1: So that too is a pretty revolutionary depiction that you 646 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:38,320 Speaker 1: rarely see on television. So I thought that they handled 647 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 1: it swimmingly. And this was certainly a fine example of 648 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,080 Speaker 1: queer people dying on a show, but the death being 649 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 1: joyful and yeah, and it being just the beginning. They 650 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 1: get to have their their happy ending together. And there's 651 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 1: been this thing called the Lexa Pledge that UM some 652 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:05,759 Speaker 1: creators developed in the wake of fan protest over Lex's death. 653 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: In the one hundred um that has sparked more conversations 654 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:15,320 Speaker 1: about show runner responsibility for how they depict gay characters, 655 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 1: because there is that line between not wanting to stifle 656 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,920 Speaker 1: the creative process but also understanding that as a creator, 657 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: you have a responsibility to your audience and if you 658 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,760 Speaker 1: care about the impact of your media that you're making 659 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,960 Speaker 1: on the world at large, then it's something that you 660 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: absolutely need to consider. Um So, I'll be really curious 661 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:43,920 Speaker 1: and I'm hopeful to see whether this barrier gaze trope dies, 662 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,200 Speaker 1: whether we can bury it um and I know that 663 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: we have probably missed a lot of examples of this. 664 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: Um So, listeners, please phillis in um let us know 665 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:00,440 Speaker 1: what you think about it and if there are any 666 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:05,239 Speaker 1: similarly troubling tropes that you also think need to die. 667 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuffworks dot com is our email address. 668 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,200 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or 669 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've had a couple of messages 670 00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:20,880 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. Well, I have a 671 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,320 Speaker 1: letter here from Rua. I hope I'm pronouncing your name correctly. 672 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,799 Speaker 1: Rua in response to our Madam President's episode. She wrote 673 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,480 Speaker 1: in specifically about Ireland. Uh So, she says, First off, 674 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 1: I'm proud that we've had two women presidents in our country. However, 675 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,360 Speaker 1: the president has no real power and is mainly a 676 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,480 Speaker 1: figurehead who represents the country. The leader of the country 677 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,719 Speaker 1: is the t shock, and we have never had a 678 00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,800 Speaker 1: woman as t shock. Having said this, Mary Robinson was 679 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,399 Speaker 1: not only the first woman president, she was the first 680 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 1: president to take the job seriously. Before her, the job 681 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,920 Speaker 1: was basically a retirement position, but she really advocated for 682 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 1: more modern Ireland and pushed for women's rights, travelers rights, 683 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:02,600 Speaker 1: better immigration policy. She annoyed people in power by not 684 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,560 Speaker 1: doing what she was told, for example visiting the Dali 685 00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 1: Lama despite everyone saying it was a bad idea and 686 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:12,520 Speaker 1: would annoyed China. Anyway, Mary Robinson is a generally badass lady, 687 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,440 Speaker 1: and talk about a change. When Mary mcleys was elected 688 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,440 Speaker 1: after her, there was only one male candidate out of four. 689 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:20,759 Speaker 1: Asked for the odds of having two Marys in a 690 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,359 Speaker 1: row as President of Ireland, those odds are pretty high, 691 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,279 Speaker 1: I'd say, as we have a lot of Mary's here. 692 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,839 Speaker 1: I'll also briefly respond to your question on why when 693 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,160 Speaker 1: we elected such a forward thinking awesome, lady. As far 694 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 1: back as and why we still haven't cracked a legal 695 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,960 Speaker 1: abortion yet, I think you have to understand how far 696 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,759 Speaker 1: we've come. Since Robinson was president, it was illegal to 697 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,840 Speaker 1: sell any sort of contraception except under prescription to a 698 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,360 Speaker 1: married couple. Homosexuality was still a crime, marital rape was 699 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 1: not a crime, divorce was illegal and impossible, and mother 700 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,240 Speaker 1: and baby homes as well as Magdalen laundrys had only 701 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 1: just stopped operating legally. I believe at the time only 702 00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,920 Speaker 1: fringe and underground groups even said the ward abortion, and 703 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: people like Robinson advocated for the more immediate and possibly 704 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:09,719 Speaker 1: viewed as more acceptable access to contraception. Things have changed now, 705 00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,280 Speaker 1: and tens of thousands march on the street for legalized 706 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,799 Speaker 1: abortion rights. It's a question of when, not if at 707 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,440 Speaker 1: this stage. Anyway, Sorry for going on so much. Just 708 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,880 Speaker 1: thought that since you enlighten me so often on so 709 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: many things and brighten up my day while doing so, 710 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:24,680 Speaker 1: I thought I may, in a small way return the 711 00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:28,399 Speaker 1: favor was with some Irish knowledge. Well, thank you so much. 712 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,799 Speaker 1: We appreciate that Irish knowledge, and I have a letter 713 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:36,240 Speaker 1: here from Helen about our Madam President's episode and Helen writes, 714 00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,839 Speaker 1: I've definitely seen the barriers women face in politics and 715 00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,719 Speaker 1: loved hearing the framing of the glass cliff something that 716 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,080 Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense. It happened here in Canada 717 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,799 Speaker 1: with our only female Prime Minister, Kim Campbell, as a 718 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 1: Canadian and someone who campaigned for the Liberal Party during 719 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,279 Speaker 1: our election last year. I really wanted to say how 720 00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:56,640 Speaker 1: much I love the way you talk about Justin Trudeau. 721 00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,560 Speaker 1: I've met him a few times, Jelly, and he really 722 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 1: is a pretty amazing guy and someone I feel so 723 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,640 Speaker 1: lucky to have as my prime minister. But your love 724 00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,319 Speaker 1: for him cracks me up the best way possible. Every 725 00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,680 Speaker 1: single time. I happened to be walking past Parliament while 726 00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,160 Speaker 1: you were talking about him in the Madam President's episode, 727 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:18,480 Speaker 1: and it was just such a hilariously perfect moment. Thanks 728 00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:20,399 Speaker 1: for all the amazing work you both do and all 729 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,239 Speaker 1: the love you send Canada's way. Can't wait to hear 730 00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:25,799 Speaker 1: what you have to talk about next, Oh, Helen, thank 731 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,319 Speaker 1: you so much. And you know we send love to 732 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:32,120 Speaker 1: Canada because y'all send a lot of love our way 733 00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:37,600 Speaker 1: as well. And uh, certainly today I am extra jealous 734 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,560 Speaker 1: Justin Trudeau and I would just like to to make 735 00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 1: a small side note. UM, I did notice this was 736 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:45,920 Speaker 1: not a majority of emails by any stretch, but I 737 00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,319 Speaker 1: did notice that we had received at least one email saying, Hey, 738 00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,919 Speaker 1: it sounded like you think prime ministers don't work as hard, 739 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: or don't have as much responsibility, or aren't as good 740 00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,600 Speaker 1: as presidents. What gives? And I just want to assure 741 00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,000 Speaker 1: you that that's not at all we're trying to say. UM, 742 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:05,000 Speaker 1: just that the parliamentary and the presidential systems are quite 743 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:09,440 Speaker 1: different and they elect people differently, and that that's all 744 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,919 Speaker 1: you're saying. And now, friends, you can send us your 745 00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,319 Speaker 1: thoughts as well. Mom stuff at how stuff works dot 746 00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,319 Speaker 1: com is where you can send them and for links 747 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:19,040 Speaker 1: to all of our social media as well as all 748 00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,279 Speaker 1: of our blogs, videos and podcasts with our sources so 749 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:26,239 Speaker 1: you can learn even more about television tropes, head on 750 00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:32,920 Speaker 1: over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com. For 751 00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,560 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics, visit how 752 00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:44,320 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com