WEBVTT - The Writer Behind the Medal of Honor 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:25.476 Bushkin this season on Medal of Honor Stories of Courage. 0:00:25.716 --> 0:00:28.956 We brought you incredible stories from Medal of Honor recipients 0:00:29.316 --> 0:00:32.236 who fought in conflicts from the Civil War to the 0:00:32.276 --> 0:00:35.396 Iraq War. And I always said John Chapman was the 0:00:35.436 --> 0:00:39.356 last episode of our season, but I lied. We're back 0:00:39.396 --> 0:00:42.236 with a bonus. To wrap up our season, I invited 0:00:42.276 --> 0:00:45.676 Meredith Rollins, the writer behind the series, to come in 0:00:45.756 --> 0:00:48.996 for a little chat. Meredith is an old friend of mine. 0:00:49.156 --> 0:00:51.556 Her dad was a second lieutenant in the United States 0:00:51.556 --> 0:00:54.716 Marine Corps, and I wanted to talk with her about 0:00:54.756 --> 0:00:57.116 what we both learned from all the stories we've told 0:00:57.156 --> 0:01:03.036 this season about contagious courage, self sacrifice, and a secret 0:01:03.076 --> 0:01:07.316 theme in nearly all these stories, the importance of strong moms. 0:01:08.196 --> 0:01:10.636 We talked a little about moments that didn't make the cut, 0:01:10.956 --> 0:01:14.756 what surprised us and what made us cry. If you've 0:01:14.796 --> 0:01:16.876 got moments of your own to share, we want to 0:01:16.916 --> 0:01:19.476 hear from you. You can find us on most social 0:01:19.516 --> 0:01:31.196 media at Pushkin pods. All right, onto my conversation with Meredith. Hello, everyone, 0:01:31.716 --> 0:01:34.876 this is Malcolm Glowell. I am here with Meredith Rollins. 0:01:35.676 --> 0:01:40.956 Who is the power behind the Throne in the Medal 0:01:40.956 --> 0:01:43.236 of Honor series. She's the one who wrote all the episodes, 0:01:43.276 --> 0:01:46.276 did all the research. She's the genius who brought it 0:01:46.276 --> 0:01:48.996 all together. Meredith, thank you for joining. 0:01:48.716 --> 0:01:51.236 Me, Thanks for having me. It's fun to be on 0:01:51.276 --> 0:01:52.036 the microphone. 0:01:52.276 --> 0:01:55.556 It is. Yes, we thought we would be remiss in 0:01:55.596 --> 0:01:58.796 our Medal of Honor series if we didn't talk to 0:01:59.476 --> 0:02:03.316 the person who found all these incredible stories. You tell 0:02:03.316 --> 0:02:05.116 me first, how much did you enjoy this? 0:02:05.796 --> 0:02:08.916 I have really loved it, and not for a few 0:02:08.916 --> 0:02:11.796 to reasons. The first is when you and I first 0:02:11.796 --> 0:02:14.556 started talking about this project. I remember I said to you, 0:02:15.156 --> 0:02:16.956 I don't think that I am the right person for 0:02:16.996 --> 0:02:19.836 this project because I don't know anything about military history 0:02:20.356 --> 0:02:24.396 or the military or history. I mean, whatever I knew, 0:02:24.436 --> 0:02:28.036 i'd sort of forgotten. And you, I think, very rightly 0:02:28.076 --> 0:02:30.636 pointed out that this was going to make the whole 0:02:30.676 --> 0:02:34.996 exploration and investigation of these stories more fun for me 0:02:35.156 --> 0:02:38.716 and potentially more inclusive for an audience that doesn't necessarily 0:02:39.196 --> 0:02:41.876 have a background where they know a ton about you know, 0:02:42.076 --> 0:02:45.676 the Battle of Guadalcanal, for example. And my dad was 0:02:45.716 --> 0:02:46.596 a marine. 0:02:46.956 --> 0:02:50.236 I know that, yeah, in what War Korea? 0:02:50.356 --> 0:02:52.716 No, he was actually in between Korea and Vietnam, so 0:02:52.796 --> 0:02:56.836 he was deployed to Okinawa. He went through the Marine 0:02:57.116 --> 0:03:00.436 Officer Training program. He went to Purdue on a scholarship 0:03:00.716 --> 0:03:04.236 and spent four years in the service, and it was 0:03:04.236 --> 0:03:07.236 a really defining thing for him. He absolutely loved it. 0:03:07.276 --> 0:03:09.276 Being having been a marine was the first thing he 0:03:09.276 --> 0:03:12.116 would really impressing. He would say, Yeah, I did not 0:03:12.276 --> 0:03:12.516 know that. 0:03:13.276 --> 0:03:15.716 I knew you did just business should know. I've known 0:03:15.716 --> 0:03:18.316 Meredith for many, many years, and I knew your dad. 0:03:18.756 --> 0:03:21.036 I did not know that that was such a crucial 0:03:21.076 --> 0:03:23.556 part of his life story. Yeah, And you know, it's 0:03:23.636 --> 0:03:27.276 interesting my father in law also serve in the Marine Corps, 0:03:27.316 --> 0:03:31.436 so I have this kind of military influence. But this. 0:03:33.196 --> 0:03:36.036 Project has been a really interesting way to dive into 0:03:36.076 --> 0:03:38.996 what being in the service is all about. To learn 0:03:39.036 --> 0:03:41.956 the stories of these people who have done these extraordinary things, 0:03:42.236 --> 0:03:45.716 and also to really reintroduce myself to those different periods 0:03:45.756 --> 0:03:50.316 of American history that are so compelling and really inform 0:03:50.636 --> 0:03:54.396 where we are as a country today. And also just 0:03:54.436 --> 0:03:56.916 looking into all these stories because you know, threey five 0:03:56.996 --> 0:03:59.156 hundred and nineteen people have won the Medal of Honor, 0:03:59.636 --> 0:04:02.476 so it's a vast resource of people to look through, 0:04:02.916 --> 0:04:06.876 but kind of doing the detective work to find out 0:04:07.276 --> 0:04:10.396 which stories are most compelling, to find a diverse and 0:04:10.476 --> 0:04:13.356 interesting group who are all a little bit different, and 0:04:13.396 --> 0:04:17.316 then just some of the battlefield drama has been really, 0:04:17.956 --> 0:04:18.796 really exciting. 0:04:18.956 --> 0:04:24.756 I was surprised. I've been continually surprised through this series 0:04:25.156 --> 0:04:29.556 at how how little I knew about these battles you're describing. 0:04:29.596 --> 0:04:31.356 I mean, I'm actually, when I say that, as someone 0:04:31.356 --> 0:04:34.756 who I probably have I have hundreds of books on 0:04:35.676 --> 0:04:40.596 wars and military things in my library. I mean, I'm 0:04:40.676 --> 0:04:44.836 someone who considers themselves well above average in their obsession 0:04:44.916 --> 0:04:47.876 with the world, wars and other things. I didn't know 0:04:47.916 --> 0:04:51.196 half the stuff, the Okinawa stuff from Bob Bush Bobus. 0:04:51.796 --> 0:04:55.356 I mean, I knew the Pacific Theater was a nasty place. 0:04:55.436 --> 0:05:00.116 I just had no idea the scale of the casualties there. 0:05:00.596 --> 0:05:02.596 It's mind boggling, it is. 0:05:02.796 --> 0:05:05.796 And also, I mean for me that that piece of 0:05:05.836 --> 0:05:10.156 the research really getting deep into the weeds of thesearious battlefields. 0:05:10.556 --> 0:05:13.076 I mean, what it means is that I have now 0:05:13.156 --> 0:05:16.476 become sort of boring when you have a conversation with 0:05:16.556 --> 0:05:19.676 me about what I'm doing, because I'm like, oh, let 0:05:19.716 --> 0:05:22.396 me tell can I tell you something about Okinawa's it. 0:05:22.516 --> 0:05:25.836 Here's a hot tip Buguada canal. This is my cocktail 0:05:25.876 --> 0:05:26.676 party conversation. 0:05:26.836 --> 0:05:29.836 Now you know you are that. Yes, you're the person 0:05:29.836 --> 0:05:31.996 we all avoided, although I've been the person you should 0:05:31.996 --> 0:05:33.796 avoided a party for most of my life. So I'm 0:05:34.036 --> 0:05:37.356 Missy Love's company. I really the next time we'll hang 0:05:37.356 --> 0:05:41.756 out together and we can trade. No, it's but that's 0:05:41.756 --> 0:05:44.836 the kind of lovely thing about doing getting immersed in 0:05:44.916 --> 0:05:47.516 a subject like this and the other thing I was 0:05:47.556 --> 0:05:50.596 thinking about that. You know, every time you plunge into 0:05:50.636 --> 0:05:54.836 one of these stories, you have a certainty that some 0:05:55.676 --> 0:05:59.116 transcendent thing is at the end. 0:05:59.676 --> 0:06:03.836 Well, I feel as though the story is going well 0:06:03.916 --> 0:06:06.396 if I am crying by the end, And of course 0:06:06.436 --> 0:06:08.996 I'm just I'll put it out there. I'm the kind 0:06:08.996 --> 0:06:11.236 of person who cries at lots of things. 0:06:11.276 --> 0:06:13.516 I'm you know, the person who cries. Give me some crime, 0:06:13.756 --> 0:06:15.796 give me your top crying moments in the series. 0:06:15.916 --> 0:06:18.916 Well, but the Bob Bush story when he talks about 0:06:19.156 --> 0:06:22.556 he's been through this terrible battle in Okinawa, and what's 0:06:22.596 --> 0:06:25.236 his big takeaway? Not that he survived, not that he's 0:06:25.276 --> 0:06:27.956 saved someone's life. It's that he was then able to 0:06:27.996 --> 0:06:31.036 have children, and he talks about what a wonderful thing 0:06:31.116 --> 0:06:35.076 that is, or hearing Jay Vargas choke up about when 0:06:35.076 --> 0:06:38.316 he talks about his mom, and I don't know, hopefully 0:06:38.756 --> 0:06:40.996 listeners will be able to tell this when he tells 0:06:41.036 --> 0:06:44.236 the story about having his mother's name on the back 0:06:44.356 --> 0:06:48.036 of his medal and he calls and he gets Richard 0:06:48.116 --> 0:06:52.396 Nixon on the phone, which of course is hilarious, but 0:06:53.036 --> 0:06:57.436 he's he kind of is is hesitant and coughing a 0:06:57.476 --> 0:07:00.876 little bit in that original tape because he was trying 0:07:00.916 --> 0:07:04.116 not to cry. And there's something about that that these 0:07:04.116 --> 0:07:09.596 guys are incredibly tough. Obviously, they're battle hardened, They've been 0:07:09.596 --> 0:07:13.636 in the worst possible scenarios, and yet you know, he 0:07:13.716 --> 0:07:15.916 talks about his mom with a tear in his eye. 0:07:15.996 --> 0:07:17.236 It's just the best. 0:07:17.156 --> 0:07:21.916 Yeah yeah to me. When I think back on what 0:07:22.036 --> 0:07:25.156 the most moving moment I it's the guy who goes 0:07:25.196 --> 0:07:26.076 to the grave. 0:07:26.916 --> 0:07:29.356 Of his Oh yeah, Doug Monroe. 0:07:29.556 --> 0:07:30.916 Doug Monroe, his. 0:07:30.956 --> 0:07:33.916 Best friend from childhood, who goes and raises and lowers 0:07:33.916 --> 0:07:37.596 the flag at his grave for forty years or forty years, 0:07:37.636 --> 0:07:38.316 it's wild. 0:07:38.556 --> 0:07:38.996 Yeah. 0:07:39.116 --> 0:07:39.396 You know. 0:07:39.836 --> 0:07:41.996 The thing about that's part of that story is you 0:07:42.076 --> 0:07:44.676 know that it really was every day. Oh yeah, like 0:07:44.716 --> 0:07:48.396 it's not he wasn't speaking metaphorically. There's nothing metaphorical about 0:07:48.676 --> 0:07:52.676 the devotion of these men to these memories. It's real. 0:07:52.796 --> 0:07:54.796 It's like he went every day. It was like part 0:07:54.836 --> 0:07:58.076 of like that. For some reason when I I had 0:07:58.236 --> 0:08:00.716 a really really hard time keeping it together when I 0:08:00.756 --> 0:08:02.076 got to that part of that story. 0:08:02.316 --> 0:08:04.876 Oh, it's so it's just so amazing. And then the 0:08:04.956 --> 0:08:08.236 Tybar Rubens story, there are a million moments in that 0:08:08.396 --> 0:08:13.596 when he learned that his mom has followed his little 0:08:13.676 --> 0:08:18.236 sister into the gas chamber. That's a heartbreaking thing. When 0:08:18.276 --> 0:08:20.836 the people that he saved to talk about how he 0:08:21.236 --> 0:08:23.516 picked lice off of them, like all of that stuff 0:08:23.596 --> 0:08:28.076 is just you cannot believe the devotion and the time 0:08:28.196 --> 0:08:31.396 that he spent, which is just a different way of 0:08:31.436 --> 0:08:35.076 looking at heroism, the fact that he and so many 0:08:35.116 --> 0:08:38.876 of these guys just again and again and again we're 0:08:38.916 --> 0:08:40.636 helping the people around them. 0:08:40.796 --> 0:08:45.036 Yeah. Yeah, Well, one of the interesting kind of psychological 0:08:46.196 --> 0:08:49.556 insights I got from these stories is how much of 0:08:50.276 --> 0:08:54.876 courage is just a or heroism is an offshoot simply 0:08:54.956 --> 0:09:03.636 of devotion. Yeah, it's the same impulse. It just that thought, 0:09:03.676 --> 0:09:05.516 as obvious as it seems, is not something that ever 0:09:05.556 --> 0:09:08.836 occurred to me. I assumed that they were, you know, 0:09:09.236 --> 0:09:13.596 opposite ends of some beneficial continuum. They're not. It's the 0:09:13.596 --> 0:09:16.516 same impulse, just expressed in a different way. It's a 0:09:16.636 --> 0:09:19.276 lot of these guys. It's a it's the high testostero 0:09:19.356 --> 0:09:22.356 and twenty two year old man's way of saying I 0:09:22.396 --> 0:09:24.316 love you, I mean glad. These guys are their high 0:09:24.316 --> 0:09:25.716 disoster two year old guys. 0:09:25.796 --> 0:09:28.196 Yes, yes, for sure. But at the same time, there 0:09:28.316 --> 0:09:30.436 is that there's this devotion to the people that they 0:09:30.516 --> 0:09:33.636 are serving with and to the cause that they're serving 0:09:33.796 --> 0:09:36.516 to the of course deeply patriotic. But one of the 0:09:36.556 --> 0:09:39.116 things that we don't really include so much in this 0:09:39.276 --> 0:09:42.356 series is that almost all of them say at some 0:09:42.556 --> 0:09:46.436 point in an interview that they were just doing their job, 0:09:46.876 --> 0:09:48.876 that what they were doing on that day was no 0:09:48.996 --> 0:09:52.236 different from what they were doing the thirty days before that. 0:09:52.276 --> 0:09:55.196 It just happened that they were doing their job in 0:09:55.196 --> 0:09:59.636 this extraordinary circumstance. And I don't think I've listened to 0:09:59.756 --> 0:10:02.676 an interview with any one of these people where they've 0:10:02.716 --> 0:10:06.276 said I deserve this metal, I did this thing that 0:10:06.356 --> 0:10:08.876 was above and beyond. That's how the military defines it. 0:10:09.156 --> 0:10:11.236 But that's not how they define it. They define it 0:10:11.276 --> 0:10:14.156 as I was doing something that anybody else would have 0:10:14.196 --> 0:10:15.876 done in the same circumstance. 0:10:16.356 --> 0:10:20.916 Now, but of course that isn't true, right right, So 0:10:21.236 --> 0:10:24.636 it's this really interesting. This is another interesting fact about 0:10:24.636 --> 0:10:27.676 these that there is a kind of culture that says 0:10:28.156 --> 0:10:30.436 this was an act that you know, anyone would be 0:10:30.516 --> 0:10:33.396 capable of. I just did. At the same time, the 0:10:33.916 --> 0:10:37.756 act itself is completely out of the ordinary, and when 0:10:37.756 --> 0:10:39.396 we read about it, we're like, how on earth could 0:10:39.396 --> 0:10:41.756 anyone do that? Now, I just want to talk a 0:10:41.796 --> 0:10:46.036 little bit more. That's a really interesting tension or contradiction 0:10:46.156 --> 0:10:49.476 or something in these stories which I never managed to resolve. 0:10:50.156 --> 0:10:53.116 Are they Is it just that that's the way you're 0:10:53.116 --> 0:10:55.556 expected to talk about it, or is it that they 0:10:56.116 --> 0:10:59.996 truly do feel that this is something anyone could have done. 0:11:00.116 --> 0:11:02.076 If I were to venture a guess, I would say 0:11:02.076 --> 0:11:06.276 that they sincerely feel that anybody in the same situation 0:11:07.636 --> 0:11:11.476 would have And maybe the subtext is should have done 0:11:11.756 --> 0:11:15.716 exactly what I chose to do. I mean there are 0:11:15.756 --> 0:11:18.956 obvious things that are you know, people that don't fall 0:11:18.956 --> 0:11:22.196 into that rule, like tib War. Part of what was 0:11:22.236 --> 0:11:24.436 interesting about tiber Ruben was that he had this whole 0:11:24.516 --> 0:11:27.156 set of experiences that nobody else in the camp had, 0:11:27.196 --> 0:11:30.956 so they wouldn't necessarily have known to do the things 0:11:30.956 --> 0:11:34.756 that he did. At the same time, he talks endlessly 0:11:34.796 --> 0:11:38.276 about their shared humanity and how anybody he believed he 0:11:38.356 --> 0:11:40.596 was taught by his parents that anybody should do these 0:11:40.596 --> 0:11:42.876 wonderful things for other people. It's just what you are. 0:11:43.196 --> 0:11:46.996 But someone like all Win with Cash, all in Cash, Yeah, 0:11:47.116 --> 0:11:50.956 it goes back into the burning vehicle. We don't need 0:11:50.996 --> 0:11:53.916 seven times seven times to pull people out. So there's 0:11:53.956 --> 0:11:57.516 our good case study. Now suppose Allwin Cash said, well, 0:11:57.516 --> 0:12:01.116 anyone would have done that? Well, no, I can tell 0:12:01.116 --> 0:12:03.276 you right now I'm not. I would never go back 0:12:03.276 --> 0:12:04.716 seven times into a burning vehicle. 0:12:05.076 --> 0:12:09.276 Actually I think it was maybe it was five times anyway, 0:12:10.516 --> 0:12:13.356 but yeah, Alan Cash goes back over and over again 0:12:14.516 --> 0:12:17.676 because he's devoted. To go back to your idea of devotion, 0:12:17.716 --> 0:12:21.316 he's devoted to his what he called his boys, He's 0:12:21.316 --> 0:12:23.196 devoted to them. He's not going to leave any of 0:12:23.236 --> 0:12:25.436 them behind. And as long as he can keep going 0:12:25.516 --> 0:12:27.516 back for them, he's going to keep doing it. And 0:12:27.556 --> 0:12:31.116 it's true because some of the eyewitnesses say, you know, yeah, 0:12:31.276 --> 0:12:32.996 we got there and we wanted to help as well, 0:12:32.996 --> 0:12:35.956 but he was doing it. He'd pulled everybody out. So 0:12:36.236 --> 0:12:39.876 I do think maybe it's a mix between that mindset 0:12:39.956 --> 0:12:43.076 that you can do it, and well, nobody else is 0:12:43.116 --> 0:12:44.916 doing it, so I guess I have to do it, 0:12:45.236 --> 0:12:47.756 and also this feeling of well, why wouldn't I do it. 0:12:48.596 --> 0:12:49.836 I don't know that I'm being particular. 0:12:49.956 --> 0:12:54.236 I think what they're doing is they are almost unconsciously 0:12:54.316 --> 0:12:59.716 confusing would and should. What they say anyone would do this, 0:12:59.796 --> 0:13:03.516 What they really mean is anyone everyone should do this. Yeah, 0:13:03.596 --> 0:13:06.036 that's what they're saying. They're saying, I did what I 0:13:06.036 --> 0:13:08.756 would expect a human being to do in that situation, 0:13:09.156 --> 0:13:12.356 and they're absolutely but that's not the same. Sadly though, 0:13:12.996 --> 0:13:15.676 most human beings would not do what they should do 0:13:16.836 --> 0:13:22.316 correct rights. That's what they're and what they're trying to 0:13:22.356 --> 0:13:24.716 explain to us. I think again, maybe it is just 0:13:24.796 --> 0:13:28.476 unconscious they're trying to explain to us that they think 0:13:28.516 --> 0:13:33.236 the gap between wood and should is too is too. 0:13:33.076 --> 0:13:37.476 Great, Yes, And I think that part of it, of course, 0:13:37.596 --> 0:13:40.156 is training, part of it is passion, part of it 0:13:40.236 --> 0:13:42.316 is patriotism. Part of it is the heat and the 0:13:42.636 --> 0:13:44.996 heat of the battle. There were certainly stories that we 0:13:45.076 --> 0:13:49.076 didn't tell where these guys look back on the action 0:13:49.716 --> 0:13:53.316 and say, I don't remember having done it. Yes, I 0:13:53.396 --> 0:13:55.516 know that I threw myself on a grenade, but I 0:13:55.556 --> 0:13:59.236 don't remember that moment. So I do think that part 0:13:59.236 --> 0:14:04.156 of it is just this instant gut reaction that you 0:14:04.236 --> 0:14:06.236 see something that needs to be done and you just 0:14:06.436 --> 0:14:08.836 do it because you aren't even thinking about what the 0:14:08.876 --> 0:14:10.356 content sequences are for yourself. 0:14:10.676 --> 0:14:32.956 Yeah. Yeah, we'll be back in a minute. Let's talk 0:14:32.956 --> 0:14:34.796 a little bit about First of all, did you have 0:14:34.836 --> 0:14:37.276 a favorite story, one that you loved doing more than 0:14:37.276 --> 0:14:37.676 any other. 0:14:38.316 --> 0:14:43.196 Oh that's really hard. I you know now, I feel 0:14:43.196 --> 0:14:46.236 like I love all of my children equally, Malcolm, So no, 0:14:46.676 --> 0:14:50.156 I don't really have a favorite. I think the fun 0:14:50.196 --> 0:14:52.876 thing for me has been finding the interesting angle to 0:14:53.316 --> 0:14:56.276 sort of take a different look at a story that 0:14:56.556 --> 0:15:02.436 perhaps you've heard before. Working on Mary Walker, the only 0:15:02.876 --> 0:15:06.556 woman to win the Medal of Honor, was incredibly fun 0:15:06.676 --> 0:15:08.596 and I think at a certain point I realized I 0:15:08.676 --> 0:15:10.676 was having too much fun with it. I kept on 0:15:11.116 --> 0:15:14.156 making pants jokes, which I eventually took out because I 0:15:14.236 --> 0:15:17.436 was being too lighthearted about something that actually what she 0:15:17.516 --> 0:15:20.836 did was was incredibly serious and extraordinary, but kind of 0:15:20.876 --> 0:15:23.236 getting to know her as a person, and I think 0:15:23.236 --> 0:15:26.196 that she probably was really tough to be around and 0:15:26.276 --> 0:15:28.156 kind of ye I was going to say, kind of 0:15:28.196 --> 0:15:33.036 intense and sort of a little nuts, but in the 0:15:33.076 --> 0:15:36.116 best possible way. She was just a woman like way 0:15:36.196 --> 0:15:38.796 beyond her time. That just she wasn't going to take 0:15:38.796 --> 0:15:41.396 no for an answer, and it was delightful every time 0:15:41.436 --> 0:15:43.836 I found out something new about her, you know, the 0:15:43.876 --> 0:15:47.556 fact that she kind of moved into the home of 0:15:47.676 --> 0:15:50.916 Ulysses Grant and stayed there until she got a job. 0:15:51.076 --> 0:15:53.556 And then you know, because you and I have talked 0:15:53.596 --> 0:15:57.276 about this a bit, and the other people who are 0:15:57.276 --> 0:15:58.996 working on this podcast with me have heard me say 0:15:59.036 --> 0:16:01.436 it now way too many times. My favorite thing about 0:16:01.436 --> 0:16:03.756 all of these is when the mom shows up, Because 0:16:03.756 --> 0:16:07.196 the moms show up over and over again. Yeah, well 0:16:07.236 --> 0:16:11.156 I will say that. So I work on this podcast 0:16:11.756 --> 0:16:16.156 with Constanza Gardo, Benette f. Haffrey, and Izzy Carter, who 0:16:16.236 --> 0:16:18.276 are the three most brilliant people I've ever worked with, 0:16:18.356 --> 0:16:21.116 other than you, of course, Malcolm, which but maybe even 0:16:21.116 --> 0:16:24.636 a little bit more. And the joke that we have 0:16:24.756 --> 0:16:29.796 constantly because I'm the only middle aged mom in the group, 0:16:30.436 --> 0:16:33.036 is that I keep on picking these stories with big 0:16:33.076 --> 0:16:36.236 mom energy. 0:16:36.596 --> 0:16:39.316 Only you would do would be drawn to a series 0:16:39.396 --> 0:16:43.636 on war heroes because you were interested in the whole 0:16:43.716 --> 0:16:44.716 mom side of the. 0:16:44.676 --> 0:16:48.116 Story, right, exactly, big mom energy. But I do think 0:16:48.716 --> 0:16:52.036 it is part of it is that you listen to 0:16:52.036 --> 0:16:54.316 these stories and you realize that they are so personal 0:16:54.396 --> 0:16:59.316 and they are so emotional. And of course, obviously some 0:16:59.036 --> 0:17:02.196 of our episodes focus on people who died in battle, 0:17:02.676 --> 0:17:06.036 and some of them, like Henry Johnson, were never recorded 0:17:06.036 --> 0:17:10.196 that we know of, but the ones who were always 0:17:10.396 --> 0:17:14.596 have at a certain point that catch in their voice. 0:17:15.356 --> 0:17:20.596 They all have a real emotional reaction to telling their 0:17:20.636 --> 0:17:24.836 stories or something about their stories, and it just happens 0:17:24.876 --> 0:17:26.076 to be that a lot. For a lot of them, 0:17:26.116 --> 0:17:26.996 it's their moms. 0:17:27.396 --> 0:17:29.956 Yeah, it is mom's on parade. But who's the best 0:17:29.996 --> 0:17:32.596 of all moms? Is it Jave Argus's mom. 0:17:33.036 --> 0:17:38.956 Jave Argus's mom was fantastic and my but my favorite 0:17:38.956 --> 0:17:40.916 mom has to be Doug mon Ro's mom, who then 0:17:40.956 --> 0:17:45.196 went on to join Right the Coast Guard at the 0:17:45.236 --> 0:17:48.156 age of forty eight, and then they proceeded to refer 0:17:48.196 --> 0:17:52.276 to her as the old Lady, which I thought was 0:17:52.796 --> 0:17:56.356 hilarious and also depressing. But nevertheless, but. 0:17:56.356 --> 0:17:59.236 You wait, you're not forty eight yet, are you, merediths I. 0:17:59.236 --> 0:18:01.316 Don't feel like we need to have this discussion in 0:18:01.356 --> 0:18:05.476 this particular book at this time, but anyway, I feel 0:18:05.516 --> 0:18:08.276 like there was this kind of you know, Bob Bush's 0:18:08.316 --> 0:18:10.636 mom is like, me, you should go to You're seventeen, 0:18:10.676 --> 0:18:13.396 but maybe you should go ahead and join up. Jay Vargas' 0:18:13.516 --> 0:18:16.116 mom is like, please, don't join the Marines, and then 0:18:16.156 --> 0:18:16.676 he does. 0:18:18.156 --> 0:18:18.996 We're the dads. 0:18:20.236 --> 0:18:23.196 I don't, don't we don't. For whatever reason, I just 0:18:23.236 --> 0:18:26.796 didn't stumble across a great dad story. But no, no, no, yes, 0:18:26.876 --> 0:18:27.956 this is season two. 0:18:27.996 --> 0:18:31.796 This is no no, this is my theory of parental asymmetry. 0:18:31.836 --> 0:18:34.396 I've ever heard this theory. No, it is at any 0:18:34.436 --> 0:18:37.356 given time, it changes about our life. But at any 0:18:37.396 --> 0:18:41.756 given time in our lives, we are only really able 0:18:41.796 --> 0:18:46.996 to construct narratives about one of our parents. So there's 0:18:47.036 --> 0:18:50.956 a moment when you can't it's for some reason that 0:18:51.036 --> 0:18:55.316 I don't particularly understand. We cannot integrate the contributions of 0:18:55.356 --> 0:18:57.596 our parents to who we are. So what we do 0:18:57.716 --> 0:19:01.076 is we toggle. So there's a you know, you talk 0:19:01.156 --> 0:19:03.436 to someone at fourteen and they just talk about how 0:19:03.516 --> 0:19:07.596 my mom drives me crazier. You talk to them at 0:19:07.636 --> 0:19:10.676 you know, thirty, and it's like, my dad played Little 0:19:10.756 --> 0:19:13.316 League with me, and then at sixty it's like, my 0:19:13.516 --> 0:19:16.396 mom is my ma, Ma, Ma Mom. And I just 0:19:16.436 --> 0:19:18.796 think that's the pattern in it just goes back and 0:19:19.196 --> 0:19:21.036 I look at my own life. I'm like, totally what 0:19:21.076 --> 0:19:23.996 I did. Yeah, it just catch me. On a given day, 0:19:23.996 --> 0:19:26.876 it's mom and then it's dad, And I think there's 0:19:26.916 --> 0:19:30.436 something about And this goes to what we were saying 0:19:30.436 --> 0:19:34.276 earlier about how what courage really is is devotion. Is 0:19:34.316 --> 0:19:37.876 that they grasp that and they think of the person 0:19:37.916 --> 0:19:45.356 in their life who embodied devotion, who embodied love, right, 0:19:45.796 --> 0:19:49.036 and it's their mom. So their heroism, that's the mistake. 0:19:49.436 --> 0:19:52.996 Their heroism does not remind them of the strong male 0:19:53.076 --> 0:19:56.556 figure they had growing up. No, no, no, Their heroism reminds 0:19:56.556 --> 0:20:00.036 them of the mom who nurtured them and who you know, 0:20:00.756 --> 0:20:03.796 birthed them and who wipe their noses. I think that's 0:20:04.156 --> 0:20:06.556 that's one of those things that is incredibly beautiful about. 0:20:06.276 --> 0:20:10.396 This It is and of course I feel like I 0:20:10.476 --> 0:20:13.436 gravitate towards those stories naturally, as I am a mom 0:20:13.556 --> 0:20:15.756 and I have to, you know what, I've got two boys, 0:20:16.476 --> 0:20:21.476 and for me thinking about them, think about the Bob 0:20:21.516 --> 0:20:24.916 Busch story. For example, he's seventeen when he enlists. I 0:20:24.916 --> 0:20:25.836 have a seventeen year old. 0:20:25.916 --> 0:20:27.596 You was a seventeen year old. I was good, you know, 0:20:27.636 --> 0:20:30.396 it's funny at that moment in that story, I thought 0:20:30.436 --> 0:20:32.596 immediately view about how you have a seventeen year old, 0:20:32.596 --> 0:20:35.796 and I thought, can you imagine if you had to 0:20:35.836 --> 0:20:38.796 send your eldest off to war right now? Like right now? 0:20:39.276 --> 0:20:43.876 No, it's it's it's just it's really it's really unthinkable 0:20:43.956 --> 0:20:46.516 thinkable it is. And then at the same time, and 0:20:46.596 --> 0:20:51.756 this is World War two and he was watching every 0:20:51.876 --> 0:20:55.316 other teenager go to war as quickly as they could. 0:20:55.316 --> 0:20:57.516 They wanted to get out there, they wanted to serve. 0:20:57.996 --> 0:21:01.156 I think it's a different mindset than it is than 0:21:01.196 --> 0:21:06.996 how we think about combat now. Not everyone, obviously, but 0:21:07.076 --> 0:21:09.636 I do think that there was just this feeling of 0:21:10.076 --> 0:21:11.716 as soon as I get as soon as I can 0:21:11.756 --> 0:21:14.116 get out there. I want to get out there, and 0:21:14.396 --> 0:21:16.876 I want to do my part. And I don't want 0:21:16.916 --> 0:21:18.196 to be I don't want to be trapped. I don't 0:21:18.196 --> 0:21:21.196 want to be trapped at home with my mom not 0:21:21.316 --> 0:21:24.036 being able to serve. So on the one hand, I 0:21:24.076 --> 0:21:29.036 can understand his teenage hormonal get me out there. I 0:21:29.036 --> 0:21:31.556 have no idea what I'm getting into. But the fact 0:21:31.596 --> 0:21:34.156 that the mom was like, I think maybe this is 0:21:34.196 --> 0:21:37.276 a good idea for you, that piece of it just 0:21:37.316 --> 0:21:41.716 feels incredibly, incredibly foreign to me. Real. Yeah. 0:21:42.716 --> 0:21:45.676 And also it was going on the Bob Busch story 0:21:46.076 --> 0:21:50.436 when he says it sixty seven people from his high 0:21:50.436 --> 0:21:53.676 school died in the war in a town of ten 0:21:53.716 --> 0:21:54.356 thousand people. 0:21:54.516 --> 0:21:56.316 Yeah, and they were only twenty five kids per grade 0:21:56.316 --> 0:21:56.996 in high school. 0:21:57.076 --> 0:22:00.676 It's just it's just bananas. It is bananas, totally bananas, 0:22:00.756 --> 0:22:06.276 It really is. The Henry Johnson story was another complete 0:22:06.356 --> 0:22:09.516 surprise to me. But it's funny because it's something that 0:22:09.556 --> 0:22:12.996 I have been thinking about and writing about a little bit, 0:22:13.476 --> 0:22:15.116 which is this question of what do you do with 0:22:15.156 --> 0:22:18.396 your anger? So he's of all the stories you tell, 0:22:18.476 --> 0:22:21.476 he's the one who comes home angry. Yeah, it's such 0:22:21.476 --> 0:22:23.996 a weird. First of all, that ideal is part of 0:22:24.036 --> 0:22:26.476