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Speaker 1: Bushkin this season on Medal of Honor Stories of Courage.

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Speaker 1: We brought you incredible stories from Medal of Honor recipients

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Speaker 1: who fought in conflicts from the Civil War to the

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Speaker 1: Iraq War. And I always said John Chapman was the

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Speaker 1: last episode of our season, but I lied. We're back

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Speaker 1: with a bonus. To wrap up our season, I invited

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Speaker 1: Meredith Rollins, the writer behind the series, to come in

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Speaker 1: for a little chat. Meredith is an old friend of mine.

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Speaker 1: Her dad was a second lieutenant in the United States

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Speaker 1: Marine Corps, and I wanted to talk with her about

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Speaker 1: what we both learned from all the stories we've told

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Speaker 1: this season about contagious courage, self sacrifice, and a secret

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Speaker 1: theme in nearly all these stories, the importance of strong moms.

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Speaker 1: We talked a little about moments that didn't make the cut,

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Speaker 1: what surprised us and what made us cry. If you've

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Speaker 1: got moments of your own to share, we want to

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Speaker 1: hear from you. You can find us on most social

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Speaker 1: media at Pushkin pods. All right, onto my conversation with Meredith. Hello, everyone,

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Speaker 1: this is Malcolm Glowell. I am here with Meredith Rollins.

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Speaker 1: Who is the power behind the Throne in the Medal

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Speaker 1: of Honor series. She's the one who wrote all the episodes,

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Speaker 1: did all the research. She's the genius who brought it

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Speaker 1: all together. Meredith, thank you for joining.

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Speaker 2: Me, Thanks for having me. It's fun to be on

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Speaker 2: the microphone.

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Speaker 1: It is. Yes, we thought we would be remiss in

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Speaker 1: our Medal of Honor series if we didn't talk to

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Speaker 1: the person who found all these incredible stories. You tell

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Speaker 1: me first, how much did you enjoy this?

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Speaker 2: I have really loved it, and not for a few

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Speaker 2: to reasons. The first is when you and I first

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Speaker 2: started talking about this project. I remember I said to you,

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Speaker 2: I don't think that I am the right person for

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Speaker 2: this project because I don't know anything about military history

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Speaker 2: or the military or history. I mean, whatever I knew,

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Speaker 2: i'd sort of forgotten. And you, I think, very rightly

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Speaker 2: pointed out that this was going to make the whole

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Speaker 2: exploration and investigation of these stories more fun for me

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Speaker 2: and potentially more inclusive for an audience that doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 2: have a background where they know a ton about you know,

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Speaker 2: the Battle of Guadalcanal, for example. And my dad was

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Speaker 2: a marine.

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Speaker 1: I know that, yeah, in what War Korea?

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Speaker 2: No, he was actually in between Korea and Vietnam, so

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Speaker 2: he was deployed to Okinawa. He went through the Marine

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Speaker 2: Officer Training program. He went to Purdue on a scholarship

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Speaker 2: and spent four years in the service, and it was

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Speaker 2: a really defining thing for him. He absolutely loved it.

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Speaker 2: Being having been a marine was the first thing he

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Speaker 2: would really impressing. He would say, Yeah, I did not

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Speaker 2: know that.

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Speaker 1: I knew you did just business should know. I've known

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Speaker 1: Meredith for many, many years, and I knew your dad.

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Speaker 1: I did not know that that was such a crucial

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Speaker 1: part of his life story. Yeah, And you know, it's

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Speaker 1: interesting my father in law also serve in the Marine Corps,

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Speaker 1: so I have this kind of military influence. But this.

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Speaker 2: Project has been a really interesting way to dive into

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Speaker 2: what being in the service is all about. To learn

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Speaker 2: the stories of these people who have done these extraordinary things,

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Speaker 2: and also to really reintroduce myself to those different periods

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Speaker 2: of American history that are so compelling and really inform

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Speaker 2: where we are as a country today. And also just

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Speaker 2: looking into all these stories because you know, threey five

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Speaker 2: hundred and nineteen people have won the Medal of Honor,

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Speaker 2: so it's a vast resource of people to look through,

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Speaker 2: but kind of doing the detective work to find out

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Speaker 2: which stories are most compelling, to find a diverse and

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Speaker 2: interesting group who are all a little bit different, and

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Speaker 2: then just some of the battlefield drama has been really,

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Speaker 2: really exciting.

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Speaker 1: I was surprised. I've been continually surprised through this series

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Speaker 1: at how how little I knew about these battles you're describing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm actually, when I say that, as someone

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Speaker 1: who I probably have I have hundreds of books on

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Speaker 1: wars and military things in my library. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: someone who considers themselves well above average in their obsession

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Speaker 1: with the world, wars and other things. I didn't know

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Speaker 1: half the stuff, the Okinawa stuff from Bob Bush Bobus.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I knew the Pacific Theater was a nasty place.

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Speaker 1: I just had no idea the scale of the casualties there.

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Speaker 1: It's mind boggling, it is.

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Speaker 2: And also, I mean for me that that piece of

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Speaker 2: the research really getting deep into the weeds of thesearious battlefields.

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Speaker 2: I mean, what it means is that I have now

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Speaker 2: become sort of boring when you have a conversation with

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Speaker 2: me about what I'm doing, because I'm like, oh, let

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Speaker 2: me tell can I tell you something about Okinawa's it.

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Speaker 2: Here's a hot tip Buguada canal. This is my cocktail

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Speaker 2: party conversation.

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Speaker 1: Now you know you are that. Yes, you're the person

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Speaker 1: we all avoided, although I've been the person you should

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Speaker 1: avoided a party for most of my life. So I'm

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Speaker 1: Missy Love's company. I really the next time we'll hang

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Speaker 1: out together and we can trade. No, it's but that's

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Speaker 1: the kind of lovely thing about doing getting immersed in

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Speaker 1: a subject like this and the other thing I was

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Speaker 1: thinking about that. You know, every time you plunge into

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Speaker 1: one of these stories, you have a certainty that some

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Speaker 1: transcendent thing is at the end.

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Speaker 2: Well, I feel as though the story is going well

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Speaker 2: if I am crying by the end, And of course

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Speaker 2: I'm just I'll put it out there. I'm the kind

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Speaker 2: of person who cries at lots of things.

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Speaker 1: I'm you know, the person who cries. Give me some crime,

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Speaker 1: give me your top crying moments in the series.

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Speaker 2: Well, but the Bob Bush story when he talks about

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Speaker 2: he's been through this terrible battle in Okinawa, and what's

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Speaker 2: his big takeaway? Not that he survived, not that he's

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Speaker 2: saved someone's life. It's that he was then able to

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Speaker 2: have children, and he talks about what a wonderful thing

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Speaker 2: that is, or hearing Jay Vargas choke up about when

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Speaker 2: he talks about his mom, and I don't know, hopefully

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Speaker 2: listeners will be able to tell this when he tells

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Speaker 2: the story about having his mother's name on the back

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Speaker 2: of his medal and he calls and he gets Richard

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Speaker 2: Nixon on the phone, which of course is hilarious, but

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Speaker 2: he's he kind of is is hesitant and coughing a

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Speaker 2: little bit in that original tape because he was trying

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Speaker 2: not to cry. And there's something about that that these

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Speaker 2: guys are incredibly tough. Obviously, they're battle hardened, They've been

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Speaker 2: in the worst possible scenarios, and yet you know, he

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Speaker 2: talks about his mom with a tear in his eye.

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Speaker 2: It's just the best.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah to me. When I think back on what

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Speaker 1: the most moving moment I it's the guy who goes

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Speaker 1: to the grave.

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Speaker 2: Of his Oh yeah, Doug Monroe.

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Speaker 1: Doug Monroe, his.

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Speaker 2: Best friend from childhood, who goes and raises and lowers

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Speaker 2: the flag at his grave for forty years or forty years,

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Speaker 2: it's wild.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: The thing about that's part of that story is you

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Speaker 1: know that it really was every day. Oh yeah, like

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Speaker 1: it's not he wasn't speaking metaphorically. There's nothing metaphorical about

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Speaker 1: the devotion of these men to these memories. It's real.

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Speaker 1: It's like he went every day. It was like part

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Speaker 1: of like that. For some reason when I I had

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Speaker 1: a really really hard time keeping it together when I

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Speaker 1: got to that part of that story.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's so it's just so amazing. And then the

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Speaker 2: Tybar Rubens story, there are a million moments in that

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Speaker 2: when he learned that his mom has followed his little

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Speaker 2: sister into the gas chamber. That's a heartbreaking thing. When

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Speaker 2: the people that he saved to talk about how he

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Speaker 2: picked lice off of them, like all of that stuff

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Speaker 2: is just you cannot believe the devotion and the time

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Speaker 2: that he spent, which is just a different way of

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Speaker 2: looking at heroism, the fact that he and so many

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Speaker 2: of these guys just again and again and again we're

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Speaker 2: helping the people around them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Well, one of the interesting kind of psychological

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Speaker 1: insights I got from these stories is how much of

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Speaker 1: courage is just a or heroism is an offshoot simply

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Speaker 1: of devotion. Yeah, it's the same impulse. It just that thought,

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Speaker 1: as obvious as it seems, is not something that ever

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Speaker 1: occurred to me. I assumed that they were, you know,

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Speaker 1: opposite ends of some beneficial continuum. They're not. It's the

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Speaker 1: same impulse, just expressed in a different way. It's a

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Speaker 1: lot of these guys. It's a it's the high testostero

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Speaker 1: and twenty two year old man's way of saying I

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Speaker 1: love you, I mean glad. These guys are their high

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Speaker 1: disoster two year old guys.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, for sure. But at the same time, there

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Speaker 2: is that there's this devotion to the people that they

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Speaker 2: are serving with and to the cause that they're serving

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Speaker 2: to the of course deeply patriotic. But one of the

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Speaker 2: things that we don't really include so much in this

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Speaker 2: series is that almost all of them say at some

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Speaker 2: point in an interview that they were just doing their job,

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Speaker 2: that what they were doing on that day was no

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Speaker 2: different from what they were doing the thirty days before that.

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Speaker 2: It just happened that they were doing their job in

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Speaker 2: this extraordinary circumstance. And I don't think I've listened to

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Speaker 2: an interview with any one of these people where they've

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Speaker 2: said I deserve this metal, I did this thing that

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Speaker 2: was above and beyond. That's how the military defines it.

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Speaker 2: But that's not how they define it. They define it

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Speaker 2: as I was doing something that anybody else would have

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Speaker 2: done in the same circumstance.

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Speaker 1: Now, but of course that isn't true, right right, So

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Speaker 1: it's this really interesting. This is another interesting fact about

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Speaker 1: these that there is a kind of culture that says

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Speaker 1: this was an act that you know, anyone would be

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Speaker 1: capable of. I just did. At the same time, the

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Speaker 1: act itself is completely out of the ordinary, and when

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Speaker 1: we read about it, we're like, how on earth could

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Speaker 1: anyone do that? Now, I just want to talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit more. That's a really interesting tension or contradiction

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Speaker 1: or something in these stories which I never managed to resolve.

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Speaker 1: Are they Is it just that that's the way you're

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Speaker 1: expected to talk about it, or is it that they

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Speaker 1: truly do feel that this is something anyone could have done.

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Speaker 2: If I were to venture a guess, I would say

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Speaker 2: that they sincerely feel that anybody in the same situation

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Speaker 2: would have And maybe the subtext is should have done

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Speaker 2: exactly what I chose to do. I mean there are

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Speaker 2: obvious things that are you know, people that don't fall

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Speaker 2: into that rule, like tib War. Part of what was

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Speaker 2: interesting about tiber Ruben was that he had this whole

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Speaker 2: set of experiences that nobody else in the camp had,

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Speaker 2: so they wouldn't necessarily have known to do the things

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Speaker 2: that he did. At the same time, he talks endlessly

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Speaker 2: about their shared humanity and how anybody he believed he

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Speaker 2: was taught by his parents that anybody should do these

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Speaker 2: wonderful things for other people. It's just what you are.

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Speaker 1: But someone like all Win with Cash, all in Cash, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it goes back into the burning vehicle. We don't need

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Speaker 1: seven times seven times to pull people out. So there's

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Speaker 1: our good case study. Now suppose Allwin Cash said, well,

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Speaker 1: anyone would have done that? Well, no, I can tell

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Speaker 1: you right now I'm not. I would never go back

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Speaker 1: seven times into a burning vehicle.

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Speaker 2: Actually I think it was maybe it was five times anyway,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, Alan Cash goes back over and over again

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Speaker 2: because he's devoted. To go back to your idea of devotion,

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Speaker 2: he's devoted to his what he called his boys, He's

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Speaker 2: devoted to them. He's not going to leave any of

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Speaker 2: them behind. And as long as he can keep going

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Speaker 2: back for them, he's going to keep doing it. And

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Speaker 2: it's true because some of the eyewitnesses say, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we got there and we wanted to help as well,

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Speaker 2: but he was doing it. He'd pulled everybody out. So

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Speaker 2: I do think maybe it's a mix between that mindset

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Speaker 2: that you can do it, and well, nobody else is

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Speaker 2: doing it, so I guess I have to do it,

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Speaker 2: and also this feeling of well, why wouldn't I do it.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that I'm being particular.

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Speaker 1: I think what they're doing is they are almost unconsciously

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Speaker 1: confusing would and should. What they say anyone would do this,

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Speaker 1: What they really mean is anyone everyone should do this. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what they're saying. They're saying, I did what I

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Speaker 1: would expect a human being to do in that situation,

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Speaker 1: and they're absolutely but that's not the same. Sadly though,

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Speaker 1: most human beings would not do what they should do

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Speaker 1: correct rights. That's what they're and what they're trying to

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Speaker 1: explain to us. I think again, maybe it is just

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Speaker 1: unconscious they're trying to explain to us that they think

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Speaker 1: the gap between wood and should is too is too.

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Speaker 2: Great, Yes, And I think that part of it, of course,

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Speaker 2: is training, part of it is passion, part of it

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Speaker 2: is patriotism. Part of it is the heat and the

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Speaker 2: heat of the battle. There were certainly stories that we

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Speaker 2: didn't tell where these guys look back on the action

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Speaker 2: and say, I don't remember having done it. Yes, I

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Speaker 2: know that I threw myself on a grenade, but I

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Speaker 2: don't remember that moment. So I do think that part

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Speaker 2: of it is just this instant gut reaction that you

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Speaker 2: see something that needs to be done and you just

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Speaker 2: do it because you aren't even thinking about what the

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Speaker 2: content sequences are for yourself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we'll be back in a minute. Let's talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about First of all, did you have

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Speaker 1: a favorite story, one that you loved doing more than

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Speaker 1: any other.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's really hard. I you know now, I feel

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Speaker 2: like I love all of my children equally, Malcolm, So no,

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Speaker 2: I don't really have a favorite. I think the fun

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Speaker 2: thing for me has been finding the interesting angle to

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Speaker 2: sort of take a different look at a story that

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Speaker 2: perhaps you've heard before. Working on Mary Walker, the only

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Speaker 2: woman to win the Medal of Honor, was incredibly fun

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Speaker 2: and I think at a certain point I realized I

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Speaker 2: was having too much fun with it. I kept on

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Speaker 2: making pants jokes, which I eventually took out because I

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Speaker 2: was being too lighthearted about something that actually what she

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Speaker 2: did was was incredibly serious and extraordinary, but kind of

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Speaker 2: getting to know her as a person, and I think

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Speaker 2: that she probably was really tough to be around and

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Speaker 2: kind of ye I was going to say, kind of

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Speaker 2: intense and sort of a little nuts, but in the

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Speaker 2: best possible way. She was just a woman like way

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Speaker 2: beyond her time. That just she wasn't going to take

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Speaker 2: no for an answer, and it was delightful every time

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Speaker 2: I found out something new about her, you know, the

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Speaker 2: fact that she kind of moved into the home of

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Speaker 2: Ulysses Grant and stayed there until she got a job.

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Speaker 2: And then you know, because you and I have talked

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Speaker 2: about this a bit, and the other people who are

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Speaker 2: working on this podcast with me have heard me say

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Speaker 2: it now way too many times. My favorite thing about

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Speaker 2: all of these is when the mom shows up, Because

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Speaker 2: the moms show up over and over again. Yeah, well

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Speaker 2: I will say that. So I work on this podcast

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Speaker 2: with Constanza Gardo, Benette f. Haffrey, and Izzy Carter, who

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Speaker 2: are the three most brilliant people I've ever worked with,

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Speaker 2: other than you, of course, Malcolm, which but maybe even

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Speaker 2: a little bit more. And the joke that we have

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Speaker 2: constantly because I'm the only middle aged mom in the group,

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Speaker 2: is that I keep on picking these stories with big

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Speaker 2: mom energy.

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Speaker 1: Only you would do would be drawn to a series

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Speaker 1: on war heroes because you were interested in the whole

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Speaker 1: mom side of the.

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Speaker 2: Story, right, exactly, big mom energy. But I do think

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Speaker 2: it is part of it is that you listen to

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Speaker 2: these stories and you realize that they are so personal

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Speaker 2: and they are so emotional. And of course, obviously some

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Speaker 2: of our episodes focus on people who died in battle,

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Speaker 2: and some of them, like Henry Johnson, were never recorded

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Speaker 2: that we know of, but the ones who were always

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Speaker 2: have at a certain point that catch in their voice.

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Speaker 2: They all have a real emotional reaction to telling their

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Speaker 2: stories or something about their stories, and it just happens

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Speaker 2: to be that a lot. For a lot of them,

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Speaker 2: it's their moms.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is mom's on parade. But who's the best

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Speaker 1: of all moms? Is it Jave Argus's mom.

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Speaker 2: Jave Argus's mom was fantastic and my but my favorite

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Speaker 2: mom has to be Doug mon Ro's mom, who then

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Speaker 2: went on to join Right the Coast Guard at the

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Speaker 2: age of forty eight, and then they proceeded to refer

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Speaker 2: to her as the old Lady, which I thought was

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Speaker 2: hilarious and also depressing. But nevertheless, but.

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Speaker 1: You wait, you're not forty eight yet, are you, merediths I.

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Speaker 2: Don't feel like we need to have this discussion in

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Speaker 2: this particular book at this time, but anyway, I feel

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Speaker 2: like there was this kind of you know, Bob Bush's

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Speaker 2: mom is like, me, you should go to You're seventeen,

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Speaker 2: but maybe you should go ahead and join up. Jay Vargas'

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Speaker 2: mom is like, please, don't join the Marines, and then

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Speaker 2: he does.

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Speaker 1: We're the dads.

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Speaker 2: I don't, don't we don't. For whatever reason, I just

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Speaker 2: didn't stumble across a great dad story. But no, no, no, yes,

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Speaker 2: this is season two.

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Speaker 1: This is no no, this is my theory of parental asymmetry.

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Speaker 1: I've ever heard this theory. No, it is at any

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Speaker 1: given time, it changes about our life. But at any

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Speaker 1: given time in our lives, we are only really able

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Speaker 1: to construct narratives about one of our parents. So there's

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Speaker 1: a moment when you can't it's for some reason that

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Speaker 1: I don't particularly understand. We cannot integrate the contributions of

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Speaker 1: our parents to who we are. So what we do

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Speaker 1: is we toggle. So there's a you know, you talk

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Speaker 1: to someone at fourteen and they just talk about how

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Speaker 1: my mom drives me crazier. You talk to them at

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Speaker 1: you know, thirty, and it's like, my dad played Little

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Speaker 1: League with me, and then at sixty it's like, my

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Speaker 1: mom is my ma, Ma, Ma Mom. And I just

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Speaker 1: think that's the pattern in it just goes back and

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Speaker 1: I look at my own life. I'm like, totally what

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Speaker 1: I did. Yeah, it just catch me. On a given day,

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Speaker 1: it's mom and then it's dad, And I think there's

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Speaker 1: something about And this goes to what we were saying

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Speaker 1: earlier about how what courage really is is devotion. Is

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Speaker 1: that they grasp that and they think of the person

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Speaker 1: in their life who embodied devotion, who embodied love, right,

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Speaker 1: and it's their mom. So their heroism, that's the mistake.

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Speaker 1: Their heroism does not remind them of the strong male

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Speaker 1: figure they had growing up. No, no, no, Their heroism reminds

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Speaker 1: them of the mom who nurtured them and who you know,

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Speaker 1: birthed them and who wipe their noses. I think that's

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Speaker 1: that's one of those things that is incredibly beautiful about.

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Speaker 2: This It is and of course I feel like I

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Speaker 2: gravitate towards those stories naturally, as I am a mom

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Speaker 2: and I have to, you know what, I've got two boys,

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Speaker 2: and for me thinking about them, think about the Bob

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Speaker 2: Busch story. For example, he's seventeen when he enlists. I

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Speaker 2: have a seventeen year old.

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Speaker 1: You was a seventeen year old. I was good, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's funny at that moment in that story, I thought

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Speaker 1: immediately view about how you have a seventeen year old,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, can you imagine if you had to

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Speaker 1: send your eldest off to war right now? Like right now?

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Speaker 2: No, it's it's it's just it's really it's really unthinkable

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Speaker 2: thinkable it is. And then at the same time, and

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Speaker 2: this is World War two and he was watching every

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Speaker 2: other teenager go to war as quickly as they could.

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Speaker 2: They wanted to get out there, they wanted to serve.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a different mindset than it is than

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Speaker 2: how we think about combat now. Not everyone, obviously, but

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Speaker 2: I do think that there was just this feeling of

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Speaker 2: as soon as I get as soon as I can

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Speaker 2: get out there. I want to get out there, and

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Speaker 2: I want to do my part. And I don't want

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Speaker 2: to be I don't want to be trapped. I don't

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Speaker 2: want to be trapped at home with my mom not

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Speaker 2: being able to serve. So on the one hand, I

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Speaker 2: can understand his teenage hormonal get me out there. I

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Speaker 2: have no idea what I'm getting into. But the fact

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Speaker 2: that the mom was like, I think maybe this is

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Speaker 2: a good idea for you, that piece of it just

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Speaker 2: feels incredibly, incredibly foreign to me. Real. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And also it was going on the Bob Busch story

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Speaker 1: when he says it sixty seven people from his high

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Speaker 1: school died in the war in a town of ten

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Speaker 1: thousand people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they were only twenty five kids per grade

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Speaker 2: in high school.

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Speaker 1: It's just it's just bananas. It is bananas, totally bananas,

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Speaker 1: It really is. The Henry Johnson story was another complete

395
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Speaker 1: surprise to me. But it's funny because it's something that

396
00:22:09,556 --> 00:22:12,996
Speaker 1: I have been thinking about and writing about a little bit,

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Speaker 1: which is this question of what do you do with

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Speaker 1: your anger? So he's of all the stories you tell,

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Speaker 1: he's the one who comes home angry. Yeah, it's such

400
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Speaker 1: a weird. First of all, that ideal is part of

401
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Speaker 1: the reason why this series is so fascinating is that

402
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Speaker 1: there are so many emotional dimensions to it. And here

403
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Speaker 1: we have this guy who comes home angry, and the

404
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Speaker 1: great question he faces is what he does with his anger?

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Speaker 2: Right, and the fact that he I mean, of course,

406
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Speaker 2: he was coming home and he's lauded as this war hero,

407
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Speaker 2: and I think he, like the other men in the

408
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Speaker 2: Harlem Hell Fighters, thought we're being treated as war heroes.

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Speaker 2: The world has changed, America's changed. Here we are things

410
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Speaker 2: are going to be different now. And then, of course

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Speaker 2: Henry realizes very quickly that he's back in exactly the

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Speaker 2: same society that he left, and that question of what

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Speaker 2: to do with your anger? Do you retreat, do you

414
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Speaker 2: keep to yourself, or do you go out there and

415
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Speaker 2: give voice to it? The fact that he did give

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Speaker 2: voice to it then leads to him being essentially banished, well,

417
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Speaker 2: banished from the speaking circuit, but also he eventually dies

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Speaker 2: alone and penniless and generally forgotten. And I think that

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Speaker 2: feeling of I've done I've done this thing, and you

420
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Speaker 2: can actually see that in the Mary Walker episode as well.

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Speaker 2: You know, she has served her country and now she

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Speaker 2: wants to be allowed to wear pants and vote and

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Speaker 2: fight for all of these other things that are that

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Speaker 2: are important to her. And this idea that if you've served,

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Speaker 2: and if you've if you've put yourself in harm's way

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Speaker 2: for your country, then you should expect something in return.

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Speaker 2: And neither one of them necessarily expected the medal or

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Speaker 2: the honor. What they expected was to be treated like

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Speaker 2: a full citizen of the country they had served. And

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Speaker 2: that element is really interesting to me.

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Speaker 1: From the idea that the rest of so they had

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Speaker 1: this notion that it's not that they are none of

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Speaker 1: them say that they're owed this. No, they just they

434
00:24:21,076 --> 00:24:25,396
Speaker 1: expect part of their definition of a kind of just

435
00:24:25,476 --> 00:24:28,596
Speaker 1: outcome to their service. You know that it is the

436
00:24:28,676 --> 00:24:31,796
Speaker 1: inability of the rest of society to make that same

437
00:24:31,916 --> 00:24:36,316
Speaker 1: leap that's so kind of fascinating, Like so that everyone

438
00:24:36,356 --> 00:24:40,636
Speaker 1: else looks at Henry Johnson and says, the implications of

439
00:24:40,716 --> 00:24:44,996
Speaker 1: your contribution, your bravery do not extend beyond the battlefield.

440
00:24:45,356 --> 00:24:48,236
Speaker 1: It's basically what they're saying to him is, sure, you

441
00:24:48,276 --> 00:24:50,276
Speaker 1: did this incredible thing. You said all these lives and

442
00:24:50,316 --> 00:24:53,076
Speaker 1: you've thought so bravely, and you surrendered your own health

443
00:24:53,116 --> 00:24:57,196
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah, you came home. That's it. The

444
00:24:57,236 --> 00:24:59,876
Speaker 1: story ends there. Right, you don't have a right. The

445
00:24:59,916 --> 00:25:02,556
Speaker 1: fight is not you get to keep fighting. You don't

446
00:25:02,596 --> 00:25:04,116
Speaker 1: need to. You don't need you don't get to kind

447
00:25:04,116 --> 00:25:08,516
Speaker 1: of perpetuate some chain of consequences from your actions over

448
00:25:08,516 --> 00:25:13,596
Speaker 1: in Europe. And that's his anguish is he doesn't understand

449
00:25:13,716 --> 00:25:14,516
Speaker 1: that right.

450
00:25:14,436 --> 00:25:16,236
Speaker 2: Right, you know, they'll say, Okay, we're going to throw

451
00:25:16,276 --> 00:25:19,076
Speaker 2: you a bone, we're going to put some money together

452
00:25:19,116 --> 00:25:21,476
Speaker 2: to buy you a house, and we're going to name

453
00:25:21,516 --> 00:25:24,156
Speaker 2: a road after you. All of that's going to happen.

454
00:25:24,156 --> 00:25:26,916
Speaker 2: And then the moment that he tells the truth, and

455
00:25:26,956 --> 00:25:30,156
Speaker 2: he really did not do much more than just tell

456
00:25:30,316 --> 00:25:33,156
Speaker 2: the truth of what had happened in Europe to him,

457
00:25:33,436 --> 00:25:37,476
Speaker 2: all of that stuff goes away and he sees it.

458
00:25:37,876 --> 00:25:39,796
Speaker 2: He must have seen it for the sort of fiction

459
00:25:40,196 --> 00:25:42,916
Speaker 2: that it was. That he was only allowed to be

460
00:25:43,236 --> 00:25:46,756
Speaker 2: one thing. He was defined in one very specific way,

461
00:25:47,356 --> 00:25:49,996
Speaker 2: and that was all he was allowed to be.

462
00:25:51,316 --> 00:25:54,436
Speaker 1: It's funny the Henry Johnson story is of all of

463
00:25:54,476 --> 00:25:59,676
Speaker 1: the stories, it is the most contemporary because the whole

464
00:25:59,716 --> 00:26:01,436
Speaker 1: time I was listening to. That was what I was

465
00:26:01,436 --> 00:26:04,796
Speaker 1: thinking about, was the fact that of some portion, a

466
00:26:04,836 --> 00:26:08,676
Speaker 1: significant portion of the homelessness problem in his country is veterans,

467
00:26:08,836 --> 00:26:12,156
Speaker 1: right right, often with some form of PTSD or who

468
00:26:12,276 --> 00:26:16,476
Speaker 1: come home unable to function and have effectively in many

469
00:26:16,476 --> 00:26:20,436
Speaker 1: communities been cast aside. Yes, And I didn't realize this

470
00:26:20,516 --> 00:26:23,236
Speaker 1: until I did a story of Revision's History episode once

471
00:26:23,716 --> 00:26:26,636
Speaker 1: and I went to Jacksonville, Florida, which is one of

472
00:26:26,676 --> 00:26:29,076
Speaker 1: these quite a progressive place when it comes to dealing

473
00:26:29,076 --> 00:26:32,876
Speaker 1: with homelessness. And like many towns, they do a census

474
00:26:32,916 --> 00:26:35,316
Speaker 1: of their homeless and they can tell you exactly who

475
00:26:35,316 --> 00:26:38,236
Speaker 1: they're homeless, are, where they come from, and and there

476
00:26:38,276 --> 00:26:40,156
Speaker 1: are certain they said, there was certain communities in the

477
00:26:40,156 --> 00:26:43,596
Speaker 1: country where the homelessness problem is a veteran problem, like

478
00:26:43,636 --> 00:26:48,636
Speaker 1: depending on your proximity to you know, military bases or

479
00:26:49,116 --> 00:26:52,476
Speaker 1: parts of the country where veterans and like that's this,

480
00:26:52,716 --> 00:26:57,076
Speaker 1: it's the Henry Johnson story. Yeah right. They came home

481
00:26:57,716 --> 00:27:02,276
Speaker 1: in pieces having done something on behalf of their country,

482
00:27:02,596 --> 00:27:06,596
Speaker 1: and the country said it's over right, right, we no

483
00:27:06,676 --> 00:27:08,396
Speaker 1: longer Yeah you did this great thing. We don't have

484
00:27:08,436 --> 00:27:13,556
Speaker 1: any ongoing obligation towards you. That's Henry Johnson. Is this weird.

485
00:27:13,676 --> 00:27:17,676
Speaker 1: It's a powerful story because it's we didn't learn from

486
00:27:17,716 --> 00:27:21,636
Speaker 1: it at all. What he was saying was, you still

487
00:27:21,676 --> 00:27:23,476
Speaker 1: have an obligation to me after I come home. We

488
00:27:23,556 --> 00:27:24,036
Speaker 1: still don't.

489
00:27:24,476 --> 00:27:26,876
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean that there's a difference, of course,

490
00:27:26,916 --> 00:27:30,196
Speaker 2: between the veteran services that you had after World War One,

491
00:27:30,236 --> 00:27:34,316
Speaker 2: which were incredibly minimal, and PTSD wasn't really recognized as

492
00:27:34,356 --> 00:27:36,756
Speaker 2: a thing and not dealt with. I mean even through

493
00:27:36,796 --> 00:27:39,516
Speaker 2: World War Two where we talk about, you know, tiber

494
00:27:39,596 --> 00:27:41,356
Speaker 2: comes home, he doesn't really want to talk about what

495
00:27:41,436 --> 00:27:43,396
Speaker 2: happened to him. You know, there's this feeling of like,

496
00:27:43,676 --> 00:27:45,716
Speaker 2: you know, the man in the gray flannel suit, you

497
00:27:45,756 --> 00:27:48,036
Speaker 2: come home, you just tamp it all down, you don't

498
00:27:48,076 --> 00:27:51,156
Speaker 2: deal with it. And I think what's interesting to me

499
00:27:51,436 --> 00:27:54,076
Speaker 2: about the Jay Vargas story in this regard is that

500
00:27:54,476 --> 00:27:58,556
Speaker 2: he went on he had this incredibly traumatic experience in

501
00:27:58,636 --> 00:28:02,996
Speaker 2: Vietnam where they were fighting, you know, hand to hand.

502
00:28:03,076 --> 00:28:07,116
Speaker 2: I mean, the descriptions of it are mind blowing. And

503
00:28:07,156 --> 00:28:10,476
Speaker 2: then he continues on as a marine for thirty years

504
00:28:11,196 --> 00:28:14,196
Speaker 2: and never talks about it. And then it's finally after

505
00:28:14,236 --> 00:28:16,876
Speaker 2: he retires from the core and he goes into Veterans

506
00:28:16,916 --> 00:28:19,596
Speaker 2: Services that he really comes face to face with how

507
00:28:19,636 --> 00:28:22,876
Speaker 2: important it is to deal with mental health of veterans.

508
00:28:23,516 --> 00:28:27,156
Speaker 2: He admits that he had PTSD, but he couldn't even

509
00:28:27,156 --> 00:28:30,116
Speaker 2: talk about his story for thirty six years. And here's

510
00:28:30,236 --> 00:28:31,996
Speaker 2: this is, of course, the other interesting thing about the

511
00:28:32,036 --> 00:28:35,236
Speaker 2: Medal of Honors that it does become this platform. And

512
00:28:35,356 --> 00:28:39,036
Speaker 2: jvarc is an example of somebody who took that platform

513
00:28:39,156 --> 00:28:42,676
Speaker 2: and said, we need to do more for our veterans

514
00:28:42,676 --> 00:28:45,116
Speaker 2: with PTSD. And one of the things that we need

515
00:28:45,156 --> 00:28:47,396
Speaker 2: to do is be talking about these stories and giving

516
00:28:47,436 --> 00:28:49,036
Speaker 2: them the mental health help that they need.

517
00:28:49,836 --> 00:28:52,556
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll be back.

518
00:28:52,476 --> 00:29:08,116
Speaker 3: In a minute.

519
00:29:09,196 --> 00:29:12,276
Speaker 1: Whether there's a what's the equivalent outside the world of

520
00:29:12,516 --> 00:29:14,876
Speaker 1: is really equivalent in any other part of society to

521
00:29:14,956 --> 00:29:19,236
Speaker 1: the Medal of Honor, to the implications of it, to

522
00:29:20,356 --> 00:29:22,396
Speaker 1: the kind of platform it gives you. I mean, I

523
00:29:22,436 --> 00:29:25,276
Speaker 1: suppose you could the Nobel Yeah, I was going to

524
00:29:25,676 --> 00:29:29,996
Speaker 1: sort of the Nobel Prize for is that rarefied It

525
00:29:30,076 --> 00:29:32,236
Speaker 1: is the Fields Medal, which is that's the one they

526
00:29:32,236 --> 00:29:33,636
Speaker 1: give to brilliant mathematicians.

527
00:29:34,636 --> 00:29:37,836
Speaker 2: Well, and it also is one of those things where

528
00:29:38,236 --> 00:29:41,156
Speaker 2: I did not understand until I started working on this,

529
00:29:41,476 --> 00:29:45,716
Speaker 2: how incredibly difficult it is, particularly these days, to get

530
00:29:45,716 --> 00:29:47,756
Speaker 2: a Medal of Honor. I mean, obviously you have to

531
00:29:47,756 --> 00:29:50,316
Speaker 2: have done something above and beyond. But that was what

532
00:29:50,356 --> 00:29:53,596
Speaker 2: the Alwan Cash episode was all about, was how incredibly

533
00:29:53,636 --> 00:29:57,196
Speaker 2: difficult it is to be approved for a Medal of Honor.

534
00:29:57,676 --> 00:30:01,316
Speaker 2: And the John Chapman episode is the same idea that

535
00:30:01,956 --> 00:30:07,436
Speaker 2: he's done this incredibly brave and courageous thing, and then

536
00:30:08,236 --> 00:30:11,516
Speaker 2: years later there's fight to elevate his award to the

537
00:30:11,516 --> 00:30:13,796
Speaker 2: Medal of Honor, and there was a huge fight to

538
00:30:13,796 --> 00:30:17,716
Speaker 2: get Henry Johnson the medal too. So it just it's

539
00:30:17,716 --> 00:30:21,076
Speaker 2: one of those things where you have to check all

540
00:30:21,076 --> 00:30:25,716
Speaker 2: these boxes because they want it, I mean, the military

541
00:30:25,796 --> 00:30:28,476
Speaker 2: wants and needs it to feel like it is only

542
00:30:28,516 --> 00:30:31,996
Speaker 2: given to a very select few. And then, of course

543
00:30:32,116 --> 00:30:33,876
Speaker 2: there are the people who get their medal taken away,

544
00:30:33,916 --> 00:30:36,356
Speaker 2: like Mary Walker in the Great Purge of nineteen seventy.

545
00:30:36,436 --> 00:30:37,436
Speaker 1: Didn't you ever get it back?

546
00:30:37,516 --> 00:30:40,356
Speaker 2: Yeah, she got it back in the nineteen seventies. Jimmy

547
00:30:40,396 --> 00:30:43,036
Speaker 2: Carter gave it back to her in the nineteen seventies

548
00:30:43,396 --> 00:30:47,556
Speaker 2: after sort of distant members of her family had pressed

549
00:30:48,676 --> 00:30:51,596
Speaker 2: the military to look at her records again, and so

550
00:30:51,716 --> 00:30:56,516
Speaker 2: the decision from nineteen seventeen was overturned, but they rescinded

551
00:30:56,676 --> 00:30:57,836
Speaker 2: nine hundred medals.

552
00:30:58,556 --> 00:31:00,876
Speaker 1: These are I know that in each of these cases

553
00:31:00,956 --> 00:31:05,396
Speaker 1: the amount of material of in some cases it's hundreds

554
00:31:05,396 --> 00:31:07,996
Speaker 1: of pages, right, that goes into your Medal of honor file.

555
00:31:09,476 --> 00:31:12,756
Speaker 1: We tell stories at our thirty minutes. You must have

556
00:31:12,836 --> 00:31:16,516
Speaker 1: left an extraordinary amount on the cutting room floor. Tell

557
00:31:16,596 --> 00:31:18,636
Speaker 1: us a little bit about what you had to leave out.

558
00:31:19,836 --> 00:31:22,396
Speaker 2: Well, my favorite things that I had to leave out.

559
00:31:22,876 --> 00:31:26,956
Speaker 2: There is a great Jay Vargus anecdote of running into

560
00:31:27,436 --> 00:31:33,476
Speaker 2: then Texas Governor George Bush at some veterans golf event

561
00:31:34,316 --> 00:31:38,516
Speaker 2: and George Bush says to Jave Vargas, I want you

562
00:31:38,556 --> 00:31:41,436
Speaker 2: to come and work for me, and Jay Vargas says,

563
00:31:41,516 --> 00:31:45,116
Speaker 2: I have no interest in going to Texas. Sorry, not

564
00:31:45,196 --> 00:31:48,516
Speaker 2: going to happen. And George Bush, who's i think at

565
00:31:48,516 --> 00:31:51,476
Speaker 2: this point not even really running for president yet, is like, no, no, no, no,

566
00:31:51,916 --> 00:31:53,956
Speaker 2: when I'm in the White House, you can come and

567
00:31:53,996 --> 00:31:56,436
Speaker 2: work for me there, and Jay Vargas sort of laughs

568
00:31:56,436 --> 00:31:59,076
Speaker 2: and he's like, just shows how he thought then and

569
00:31:59,156 --> 00:32:04,596
Speaker 2: now and then lo and behold George Bush takes office

570
00:32:04,676 --> 00:32:07,116
Speaker 2: and Jay Barcas gets a phone call and it's George

571
00:32:07,116 --> 00:32:09,036
Speaker 2: Bush saying, all right, I told you, I want you.

572
00:32:09,196 --> 00:32:11,156
Speaker 2: I want you to work with me in veterans affairs.

573
00:32:11,756 --> 00:32:14,756
Speaker 2: And the fact that Jay Vargas was continually on the

574
00:32:14,796 --> 00:32:17,076
Speaker 2: phone with some president or another was like my favorite

575
00:32:17,116 --> 00:32:18,836
Speaker 2: thing about him, other than the thing about his mother,

576
00:32:18,876 --> 00:32:21,476
Speaker 2: which of course I loved. And he's so sort of

577
00:32:21,476 --> 00:32:22,876
Speaker 2: goofy and charming about it.

578
00:32:23,156 --> 00:32:26,276
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he did go oh.

579
00:32:26,316 --> 00:32:28,356
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I mean, he stayed on the West Coast,

580
00:32:28,556 --> 00:32:31,956
Speaker 2: but he was kind of the West Coast veterans affairs person.

581
00:32:32,196 --> 00:32:34,516
Speaker 1: So anything else that you loved that you.

582
00:32:34,636 --> 00:32:37,516
Speaker 2: Couldn't choose, well, I mean, there was a whole story

583
00:32:37,596 --> 00:32:40,156
Speaker 2: about the training of the Harlem Hell Fighters. They were

584
00:32:40,196 --> 00:32:45,596
Speaker 2: initially sent to South Carolina to train, and the community

585
00:32:45,716 --> 00:32:49,076
Speaker 2: at the time really didn't want black soldiers there, and

586
00:32:49,196 --> 00:32:52,436
Speaker 2: so just from the moment that they got into uniform

587
00:32:52,516 --> 00:32:54,956
Speaker 2: and started to train for war, they were treated totally

588
00:32:54,996 --> 00:32:58,076
Speaker 2: differently than the white soldiers were. And there was a

589
00:32:58,156 --> 00:33:02,436
Speaker 2: whole story about that that was incredibly moving and depressing,

590
00:33:03,196 --> 00:33:05,596
Speaker 2: and it just kind of got in the way of

591
00:33:05,716 --> 00:33:10,116
Speaker 2: the action moving the story forward, but very interesting and

592
00:33:10,236 --> 00:33:14,956
Speaker 2: Mary Walker did a million different things in between her

593
00:33:15,036 --> 00:33:18,596
Speaker 2: battlefield stints. She was like the busiest person on the planet.

594
00:33:18,956 --> 00:33:21,156
Speaker 2: She would go back to Washington, d C. When she

595
00:33:21,276 --> 00:33:24,636
Speaker 2: wasn't tending to soldiers on the battlefield and start little

596
00:33:24,716 --> 00:33:29,436
Speaker 2: charities and help people. And she set up a home

597
00:33:29,436 --> 00:33:31,956
Speaker 2: for wives and mothers who were in the capitol looking

598
00:33:31,996 --> 00:33:36,836
Speaker 2: for their wounded you know, brothers, sons, fathers, husbands. She

599
00:33:36,916 --> 00:33:40,236
Speaker 2: was just incredibly active. She had like the energy of

600
00:33:40,276 --> 00:33:43,316
Speaker 2: fifteen people. Yeah, if you could meet one of these people,

601
00:33:43,556 --> 00:33:46,636
Speaker 2: who would it be? Well, I would love to meet

602
00:33:46,636 --> 00:33:48,676
Speaker 2: Mary Walker. I wouldn't really want to be stuck in

603
00:33:48,676 --> 00:33:50,356
Speaker 2: an elevator with her because I think it would be

604
00:33:50,436 --> 00:33:52,596
Speaker 2: like a little bit too much. I would like to

605
00:33:52,596 --> 00:33:54,516
Speaker 2: meet her for a short period of time if I

606
00:33:54,556 --> 00:33:56,076
Speaker 2: had an exit at the end of it, because I

607
00:33:56,116 --> 00:33:58,796
Speaker 2: sort of feel like she was just and she was

608
00:33:58,836 --> 00:34:00,356
Speaker 2: a lot. There was a lot there.

609
00:34:02,156 --> 00:34:03,676
Speaker 1: I know the answer you I know what name You're

610
00:34:03,676 --> 00:34:04,156
Speaker 1: going to say.

611
00:34:05,036 --> 00:34:08,356
Speaker 2: What are you think I'm going to say, Oh, my god, yes,

612
00:34:08,676 --> 00:34:13,036
Speaker 2: Tedru one cutest man on the planet, which, of course,

613
00:34:13,276 --> 00:34:16,276
Speaker 2: you know. Here's the other thing is that these guys

614
00:34:16,316 --> 00:34:18,196
Speaker 2: and I can just gay guys because there are so

615
00:34:18,236 --> 00:34:21,436
Speaker 2: many of them are so adorable. You see their pictures

616
00:34:21,476 --> 00:34:23,556
Speaker 2: when they first join up in the service, and it's

617
00:34:23,716 --> 00:34:28,116
Speaker 2: just a parade of good looking guys. I mean, it's

618
00:34:28,156 --> 00:34:34,636
Speaker 2: somewhat ridiculous, but Tybar Ruben seems like the most charming

619
00:34:35,276 --> 00:34:39,676
Speaker 2: of gentlemen and hilarious, and I hope when you listen

620
00:34:39,716 --> 00:34:41,756
Speaker 2: to it you can sort of get past is incredibly

621
00:34:41,796 --> 00:34:44,956
Speaker 2: thick Hungarian accent, which of course he never lost, because

622
00:34:44,956 --> 00:34:49,316
Speaker 2: he's really funny and just as cute as he could

623
00:34:49,356 --> 00:34:52,316
Speaker 2: possibly be, which you know, for me is high praise.

624
00:34:54,436 --> 00:34:58,516
Speaker 1: He's the one. I feel like, if if you had

625
00:34:58,556 --> 00:35:01,636
Speaker 1: to write a book about one of these stories, it

626
00:35:01,636 --> 00:35:03,476
Speaker 1: would be Tiba Rubin, wouldn't it.

627
00:35:03,476 --> 00:35:07,516
Speaker 2: It would be or a movie. I think that, you know,

628
00:35:07,556 --> 00:35:11,156
Speaker 2: the Tybar Ruben story. Why Steven Spielberg has not made

629
00:35:11,196 --> 00:35:15,076
Speaker 2: this movie is completely bizarre to me, because it really is.

630
00:35:15,156 --> 00:35:18,956
Speaker 2: There is NonStop action, there's a real kind of molden

631
00:35:19,116 --> 00:35:23,716
Speaker 2: heart at the center of it. He was devastatingly good looking, so,

632
00:35:23,956 --> 00:35:25,716
Speaker 2: you know, fun to cast that role.

633
00:35:26,076 --> 00:35:29,556
Speaker 1: Jake Jillenhall. I was watching Jake Jillenhall and presumed innocent.

634
00:35:29,676 --> 00:35:34,036
Speaker 1: My whole thing was like, he's he's too handsome, much

635
00:35:34,196 --> 00:35:37,756
Speaker 1: too much. Wait, what's he doing is working as a prosecutor.

636
00:35:37,916 --> 00:35:39,356
Speaker 1: He should be like a male model.

637
00:35:39,476 --> 00:35:42,476
Speaker 2: Yeah there you go. Yeah, No, Tyvor or Tyler Rubin

638
00:35:42,596 --> 00:35:45,796
Speaker 2: was just he was. He was the whole package. But

639
00:35:45,836 --> 00:35:48,596
Speaker 2: then you know, got back from got back from Korea,

640
00:35:49,436 --> 00:35:53,676
Speaker 2: and Hollywood also saw how good looking he was, because

641
00:35:53,676 --> 00:35:55,436
Speaker 2: you know, there are these pictures of him on a

642
00:35:56,116 --> 00:35:58,876
Speaker 2: stretcher coming off the you know whatever, the ship that

643
00:35:58,916 --> 00:36:03,076
Speaker 2: brought him back from North Korea. I mean, he's just,

644
00:36:03,156 --> 00:36:06,436
Speaker 2: you know, looks like Marlon Brando, and so Hollywood, you know,

645
00:36:06,476 --> 00:36:08,916
Speaker 2: he lived in California, So Hollywood sees his picture and

646
00:36:08,956 --> 00:36:12,756
Speaker 2: he's starts swaning around while with these starlits and taking

647
00:36:12,796 --> 00:36:15,756
Speaker 2: them to premieres and stuff. And there's talk that they're

648
00:36:15,756 --> 00:36:18,436
Speaker 2: going to make a movie of his life. And he's like, nah,

649
00:36:18,596 --> 00:36:21,196
Speaker 2: I don't really want to talk about it. I'm fine, thanks,

650
00:36:21,396 --> 00:36:24,276
Speaker 2: and he goes he had this beloved brother, Emory, who

651
00:36:24,316 --> 00:36:26,316
Speaker 2: opened a liquor store, and he went worked for him

652
00:36:26,716 --> 00:36:28,836
Speaker 2: and had a family and got married and the whole thing.

653
00:36:28,916 --> 00:36:31,316
Speaker 2: But you know, he would have told you like, oh,

654
00:36:31,316 --> 00:36:34,236
Speaker 2: there's nothing that interesting about my life, which he says

655
00:36:34,316 --> 00:36:34,916
Speaker 2: in the tape.

656
00:36:34,956 --> 00:36:37,756
Speaker 1: You know, he says, when did he died? You know,

657
00:36:38,716 --> 00:36:41,876
Speaker 1: it breaks my heart that we're doing this twenty fifteen.

658
00:36:42,396 --> 00:36:43,636
Speaker 1: He dies in twenty fifteen.

659
00:36:44,156 --> 00:36:45,636
Speaker 2: Yeah, he died in twenty fifteen.

660
00:36:45,756 --> 00:36:47,476
Speaker 1: We're looking him up right now. In case you're wondering

661
00:36:47,516 --> 00:36:50,476
Speaker 1: what's happening here, he is. In fact, I can confirm

662
00:36:50,836 --> 00:36:58,876
Speaker 1: incredibly handsome. Yeah, Meret. On that note, thank you so much,

663
00:36:59,036 --> 00:37:01,396
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for this series, which has been amazing,

664
00:37:01,836 --> 00:37:06,356
Speaker 1: and please, please please let's do season two and continue

665
00:37:06,356 --> 00:37:08,956
Speaker 1: the big mom energy for as long as we can.

666
00:37:09,516 --> 00:37:11,516
Speaker 2: Wow, you know, big dad energy for even two.

667
00:37:11,596 --> 00:37:14,476
Speaker 1: Big d Okay, thank you, Meredith.

668
00:37:14,556 --> 00:37:14,876
Speaker 2: Thanks.

669
00:37:17,236 --> 00:37:19,996
Speaker 1: Medal of Honor. Stories of Courage is written by Meredith

670
00:37:20,076 --> 00:37:25,636
Speaker 1: Rollins and produced by Meredith Rollins, Costanza Gallardo, and Izzy Carter.

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00:37:26,196 --> 00:37:29,076
Speaker 1: Our editor is ben A d Alfh Haffrey. Sound design

672
00:37:29,156 --> 00:37:33,676
Speaker 1: and additional music by Jake Gorsky, Recording engineering by Nina Lawrence,

673
00:37:34,076 --> 00:37:38,676
Speaker 1: fact checking by Arthur Gombert's Original music by Eric Phillips.

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00:37:39,436 --> 00:37:43,836
Speaker 1: Special thanks to series creator Dan McGinn to the Congressional

675
00:37:43,916 --> 00:37:48,556
Speaker 1: Medal of Honor Society and Adam Plumpton. I'm your host,

676
00:37:49,196 --> 00:37:49,916
Speaker 1: Malcolm Bappa