1 00:00:15,304 --> 00:00:15,824 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,864 --> 00:00:22,904 Speaker 2: I'm Andrew Leland, and I wrote How to Be Blind 3 00:00:22,944 --> 00:00:24,944 Speaker 2: for The New Yorker, and it's the story of the week. 4 00:00:25,864 --> 00:00:29,144 Speaker 1: As I've mentioned before, in a failed attempt to get 5 00:00:29,144 --> 00:00:32,024 Speaker 1: you to buy my book, man made a stupid quest 6 00:00:32,024 --> 00:00:36,184 Speaker 1: from masculinity. Back in twenty ten, the United States Army 7 00:00:36,264 --> 00:00:38,304 Speaker 1: allowed me to join a troop to do a week 8 00:00:38,344 --> 00:00:41,704 Speaker 1: of boot camp at Fort Knox. One of the exercises 9 00:00:41,824 --> 00:00:44,384 Speaker 1: involved a sergeant taking me out into the middle of 10 00:00:44,424 --> 00:00:47,064 Speaker 1: a forest where I was supposed to find a flag 11 00:00:47,304 --> 00:00:51,304 Speaker 1: that I was given compass coordinates for. I calculated that 12 00:00:51,424 --> 00:00:54,664 Speaker 1: sixty seven of my steps equal one hundred meters and 13 00:00:54,704 --> 00:00:58,024 Speaker 1: then went out to find it. The biggest challenge for 14 00:00:58,104 --> 00:01:01,864 Speaker 1: me was that this forest had a lot of butterflies, 15 00:01:02,384 --> 00:01:05,144 Speaker 1: like more butterflies than I had ever seen in a 16 00:01:05,264 --> 00:01:10,424 Speaker 1: butterfly sanctuary, and all kinds of different butterflies, each more 17 00:01:10,504 --> 00:01:14,504 Speaker 1: beautiful than the last. My other problem was I couldn't 18 00:01:14,504 --> 00:01:17,384 Speaker 1: remember which way was north or east and how many 19 00:01:17,424 --> 00:01:21,624 Speaker 1: steps i'd taken, forrest really look the same no matter 20 00:01:21,624 --> 00:01:25,904 Speaker 1: which way you go. Eventually, my sergeant gave up on me, 21 00:01:26,984 --> 00:01:29,984 Speaker 1: so I know for a proven fact that there is 22 00:01:30,144 --> 00:01:32,624 Speaker 1: no way i'd be able to do what Andrew Leland 23 00:01:32,624 --> 00:01:40,824 Speaker 1: did in Denver. Writing is hard. 24 00:01:41,024 --> 00:01:44,344 Speaker 3: Who's got that kind of time? When you're already busy 25 00:01:44,424 --> 00:01:46,944 Speaker 3: trying to be you all stand So it turns on 26 00:01:47,064 --> 00:01:50,984 Speaker 3: a mic. Maybe the twiddles enough because a journalist trand 27 00:01:51,024 --> 00:01:56,224 Speaker 3: has got in that juble jibes. Single story. Just listen 28 00:01:56,344 --> 00:02:02,504 Speaker 3: to smart people speak. Conversation, film and information is. 29 00:02:02,464 --> 00:02:03,424 Speaker 2: A story U. 30 00:02:14,264 --> 00:02:18,424 Speaker 1: When reporters confront something difficult in our personal lives, our 31 00:02:18,464 --> 00:02:21,144 Speaker 1: defense mechanism is to research the hell out of it, 32 00:02:21,424 --> 00:02:22,984 Speaker 1: which is what I did when I found out I 33 00:02:23,064 --> 00:02:24,944 Speaker 1: was having a boy, and then no idea how to 34 00:02:25,064 --> 00:02:27,184 Speaker 1: raise a boy because I know how to be a boy, 35 00:02:27,384 --> 00:02:31,024 Speaker 1: and I wrote the book Man Made a stupid Quest 36 00:02:31,024 --> 00:02:35,264 Speaker 1: for masculinity, available in bookstores. That's exactly what Andrew Leland 37 00:02:35,304 --> 00:02:37,624 Speaker 1: did for The New Yorker when he started to go blind. 38 00:02:38,664 --> 00:02:41,104 Speaker 1: Before we start, I know that among the very many 39 00:02:41,144 --> 00:02:44,384 Speaker 1: things you've done, you've been a radio and podcast producer. 40 00:02:44,384 --> 00:02:46,824 Speaker 1: So if any point you want to correct something I'm 41 00:02:46,824 --> 00:02:49,144 Speaker 1: doing wrong or add a sound effect, just feel free 42 00:02:49,184 --> 00:02:49,504 Speaker 1: to do that. 43 00:02:49,744 --> 00:02:52,304 Speaker 4: Your headphones are ond backwards, but they are right. No, 44 00:02:52,344 --> 00:02:52,944 Speaker 4: I'm just kidding. 45 00:02:52,944 --> 00:02:57,784 Speaker 1: Oh jeez. All right, So when did you first realize 46 00:02:57,824 --> 00:02:59,264 Speaker 1: your vision was changing. 47 00:02:59,904 --> 00:03:00,264 Speaker 4: Yeah. 48 00:03:00,624 --> 00:03:03,624 Speaker 2: I was living in New Mexico for about five years 49 00:03:03,624 --> 00:03:05,984 Speaker 2: between fifth and tenth grade, and that was the time 50 00:03:05,984 --> 00:03:08,744 Speaker 2: of my life when I started hanging out with the 51 00:03:08,744 --> 00:03:11,544 Speaker 2: cooler older kids and doing drugs I should not have 52 00:03:11,584 --> 00:03:12,904 Speaker 2: been doing at that age. 53 00:03:13,104 --> 00:03:14,584 Speaker 1: What age were you doing drugs? 54 00:03:15,024 --> 00:03:19,784 Speaker 2: I like did acid and mushrooms in seventh grade. 55 00:03:19,984 --> 00:03:22,104 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's not okay. 56 00:03:22,784 --> 00:03:24,744 Speaker 2: Imagine how intelligent I would be right now if I 57 00:03:24,744 --> 00:03:27,664 Speaker 2: hadn't done that, I would be interviewing you right now. 58 00:03:28,904 --> 00:03:31,504 Speaker 4: Works, it's not how it works. But yeah, it was 59 00:03:31,624 --> 00:03:32,984 Speaker 4: very bad idea. I regret it. 60 00:03:33,064 --> 00:03:35,064 Speaker 2: And it was that period when there was a lot 61 00:03:35,064 --> 00:03:38,304 Speaker 2: of like cruising out into the woods at night happening 62 00:03:38,384 --> 00:03:42,024 Speaker 2: as we were being bad, and the drugs made it 63 00:03:42,064 --> 00:03:44,344 Speaker 2: confusing because I was kind of like, am I just 64 00:03:44,384 --> 00:03:46,864 Speaker 2: like really high. And that's why it's hard to follow everybody. 65 00:03:46,904 --> 00:03:51,064 Speaker 2: But the disease I have RP or Retinitis pigmentosa first 66 00:03:51,144 --> 00:03:54,424 Speaker 2: manifests as a night blindness, and so I would just 67 00:03:54,464 --> 00:03:57,224 Speaker 2: have a lot of trouble picking my way around the 68 00:03:57,544 --> 00:04:01,024 Speaker 2: pinone trees and this darkened hillside, and that just those 69 00:04:01,104 --> 00:04:05,264 Speaker 2: kind of experiences accumulated to the point where I diagnosed myself. 70 00:04:05,944 --> 00:04:07,864 Speaker 2: And then a couple of years later, my mom had 71 00:04:07,944 --> 00:04:10,944 Speaker 2: moved to southern California by point, and I had complained 72 00:04:11,024 --> 00:04:12,744 Speaker 2: enough by then that she was like, you know, let's 73 00:04:12,864 --> 00:04:15,464 Speaker 2: go to a retinal specialist and this like heavy hitter 74 00:04:15,744 --> 00:04:19,024 Speaker 2: retinal doctor was like, yeah, retina is pigmenttosa. You'll be 75 00:04:19,064 --> 00:04:20,544 Speaker 2: blind by middle age. 76 00:04:21,064 --> 00:04:25,544 Speaker 1: Oh wow, were there moments when you noticed it getting worse? 77 00:04:26,864 --> 00:04:31,424 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's such a tricky thing to track because 78 00:04:32,184 --> 00:04:35,464 Speaker 2: it's so gradual, and it's really just like I would 79 00:04:35,464 --> 00:04:37,824 Speaker 2: compare it to noticing that you've gotten taller, right, And 80 00:04:38,064 --> 00:04:41,024 Speaker 2: my understanding of how RP and blindness works is it 81 00:04:41,104 --> 00:04:43,584 Speaker 2: is like it's very slow and then things just start 82 00:04:43,624 --> 00:04:46,464 Speaker 2: to get disastrous enough in your retina that it kind 83 00:04:46,464 --> 00:04:48,424 Speaker 2: of falls off a cliff. And the tricky thing is 84 00:04:48,424 --> 00:04:53,104 Speaker 2: that often the milestones are self imposed as much as 85 00:04:53,144 --> 00:04:56,024 Speaker 2: they are imposed from the outside. So what I mean 86 00:04:56,064 --> 00:04:59,464 Speaker 2: by that is like you kind of imagine a blindness 87 00:04:59,504 --> 00:05:01,224 Speaker 2: official coming up to you and saying, sir, I'm gonna 88 00:05:01,224 --> 00:05:03,464 Speaker 2: have to revoke your driver's license. But that doesn't happen, right, 89 00:05:03,504 --> 00:05:05,704 Speaker 2: Like I can passed the driving test, But then there's 90 00:05:05,784 --> 00:05:08,184 Speaker 2: enough close calls that you're like, I think I might 91 00:05:08,344 --> 00:05:10,744 Speaker 2: kill somebody by probably gonna stop driving at night. 92 00:05:10,904 --> 00:05:12,304 Speaker 4: During the day it's still totally fine. 93 00:05:12,304 --> 00:05:14,464 Speaker 2: And then at a certain point it's like, oh, that was 94 00:05:14,584 --> 00:05:17,424 Speaker 2: the third cyclist I almost murdered. Maybe daytime driving is 95 00:05:17,464 --> 00:05:18,344 Speaker 2: not a good idea. 96 00:05:18,264 --> 00:05:21,664 Speaker 1: Right, So giving up driving is obviously a huge change, 97 00:05:21,984 --> 00:05:26,544 Speaker 1: But were there smaller ways that your diminishing vision affected 98 00:05:26,584 --> 00:05:27,624 Speaker 1: your day to day life. 99 00:05:28,184 --> 00:05:28,424 Speaker 4: Yeah? 100 00:05:28,504 --> 00:05:30,464 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I would say like every few years I 101 00:05:30,464 --> 00:05:32,464 Speaker 2: would have another experience like that. Like, so there was 102 00:05:32,504 --> 00:05:34,784 Speaker 2: the close calls driving, and then it started to creep 103 00:05:34,824 --> 00:05:38,944 Speaker 2: into pedestrian life. So I was in a cafe and 104 00:05:39,104 --> 00:05:42,744 Speaker 2: I turned to go from the register to where the 105 00:05:43,424 --> 00:05:46,344 Speaker 2: creamers and the sugars are kept, and I just didn't 106 00:05:46,344 --> 00:05:48,104 Speaker 2: see a little toddler there and I kind of hip 107 00:05:48,184 --> 00:05:50,384 Speaker 2: checked him and he like fell to the ground and 108 00:05:50,544 --> 00:05:53,624 Speaker 2: was uninjured, but it just felt really bad and really 109 00:05:53,904 --> 00:05:57,504 Speaker 2: raised the ire of his parents. And you know, like 110 00:05:57,544 --> 00:06:01,024 Speaker 2: would kick a dog accidentally, and I knocked over two 111 00:06:01,064 --> 00:06:03,664 Speaker 2: full beers like directly onto the lapse of a pair 112 00:06:03,664 --> 00:06:05,584 Speaker 2: of women on a date in a bar. Because the 113 00:06:05,624 --> 00:06:07,264 Speaker 2: weird thing about it is you can see right, So 114 00:06:07,304 --> 00:06:08,824 Speaker 2: like I'm seeing all kinds of stuff. You just don't 115 00:06:08,824 --> 00:06:10,544 Speaker 2: know what you can't see. So like I saw a 116 00:06:10,624 --> 00:06:13,024 Speaker 2: jukebox and I was sort of like a little tipsily, like. 117 00:06:13,064 --> 00:06:14,824 Speaker 4: I'm going to put on guided by voices. 118 00:06:15,144 --> 00:06:16,664 Speaker 2: And then I was like nothing in between me and 119 00:06:16,704 --> 00:06:18,984 Speaker 2: this jukebox, and like all you know, one hundred and 120 00:06:18,984 --> 00:06:21,624 Speaker 2: eighty pounds of me just like lunges towards the jukebox, 121 00:06:21,624 --> 00:06:24,344 Speaker 2: and I don't see like table full beers. Women on 122 00:06:24,424 --> 00:06:28,104 Speaker 2: date just ruined their date, felt really bad. And so 123 00:06:28,504 --> 00:06:31,624 Speaker 2: those kind of experiences accumulate to the point where it's 124 00:06:31,664 --> 00:06:34,544 Speaker 2: like a cane would have helped in all of those situations. 125 00:06:34,904 --> 00:06:37,624 Speaker 1: So psychologically, what is it like to decide to use 126 00:06:37,664 --> 00:06:38,264 Speaker 1: a cane? 127 00:06:38,824 --> 00:06:41,984 Speaker 2: Incredibly difficult the cane. As soon as you go anywhere 128 00:06:42,264 --> 00:06:46,424 Speaker 2: holding a long white cane, you are treated as a 129 00:06:46,424 --> 00:06:51,424 Speaker 2: blind person. And people don't treat blind people normally. No, 130 00:06:51,864 --> 00:06:55,664 Speaker 2: And another big difficult thing about the cane For somebody 131 00:06:55,664 --> 00:06:58,784 Speaker 2: with RP, you just feel like a fraud because on 132 00:06:58,824 --> 00:07:01,304 Speaker 2: the one hand, it's absolutely saving all the toddlers and 133 00:07:01,344 --> 00:07:04,584 Speaker 2: dogs and beers from being knocked over. On the other hand, 134 00:07:04,624 --> 00:07:06,744 Speaker 2: people see you look at your phone or like check 135 00:07:06,824 --> 00:07:09,104 Speaker 2: the don't walk sign flashing and they're like. 136 00:07:09,144 --> 00:07:10,184 Speaker 4: What was this guy trying to do? 137 00:07:10,304 --> 00:07:12,424 Speaker 2: Is he trying to like gain sympathy over here? And 138 00:07:12,464 --> 00:07:14,184 Speaker 2: you could just see it on their faces. It's like 139 00:07:14,424 --> 00:07:16,024 Speaker 2: all these weird looks. 140 00:07:15,944 --> 00:07:18,824 Speaker 1: Because we're so binary, right, Like I see someone go 141 00:07:18,904 --> 00:07:20,984 Speaker 1: through the airport in the wheelchair and then pop up 142 00:07:21,104 --> 00:07:24,184 Speaker 1: and get on the flight or it feels like alive, 143 00:07:24,264 --> 00:07:25,504 Speaker 1: but there's a ring photally. 144 00:07:25,184 --> 00:07:26,304 Speaker 4: Obviously of course. 145 00:07:26,384 --> 00:07:27,984 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that the wheelchair is a good example. 146 00:07:27,984 --> 00:07:31,064 Speaker 2: It's the same thing, like, you know, just because somebody 147 00:07:31,664 --> 00:07:35,264 Speaker 2: can physically take steps, does that mean that they're doing 148 00:07:35,344 --> 00:07:38,024 Speaker 2: themselves a service? Are they going to be happier getting 149 00:07:38,064 --> 00:07:40,024 Speaker 2: through that airport walking? Like no, it's probably going to 150 00:07:40,064 --> 00:07:42,344 Speaker 2: be incredibly painful, But that doesn't make them a fraud 151 00:07:42,464 --> 00:07:44,544 Speaker 2: or a you know, like a lazy person. It's just 152 00:07:44,784 --> 00:07:47,504 Speaker 2: it's like another it's another way of inhabiting the world. 153 00:07:47,664 --> 00:07:50,264 Speaker 2: It is interesting though, the it's a common phenomenon, the 154 00:07:50,264 --> 00:07:54,464 Speaker 2: sort of disability doubters. You know, people are constantly calling 155 00:07:54,504 --> 00:07:58,664 Speaker 2: into question people like Stevie Wonder Truthers is all. There 156 00:07:58,744 --> 00:08:01,704 Speaker 2: is a whole horrible subreddit of people. 157 00:08:01,544 --> 00:08:03,504 Speaker 4: Who think Stevie is faking his blindness. 158 00:08:03,784 --> 00:08:06,544 Speaker 1: Why would Stevie Wonder be faking his blindness for this long? 159 00:08:07,464 --> 00:08:10,704 Speaker 2: Of course he's not right, obviously, it's completely bogus. But 160 00:08:10,864 --> 00:08:13,704 Speaker 2: the evidence that they provide is bananas. My favorite one 161 00:08:13,744 --> 00:08:15,944 Speaker 2: is that somebody saw him in like a Best Buy 162 00:08:16,024 --> 00:08:18,064 Speaker 2: or something, buying a TV and they're like, why would 163 00:08:18,064 --> 00:08:21,264 Speaker 2: a blind guy be buying a TV? Like, well, maybe 164 00:08:21,304 --> 00:08:22,984 Speaker 2: because he like has a family and they want to 165 00:08:22,984 --> 00:08:27,504 Speaker 2: watch TV. And also blind people watch TV too, But anyway, 166 00:08:27,984 --> 00:08:30,504 Speaker 2: it's it's dispiriting in the extreme. 167 00:08:30,784 --> 00:08:32,824 Speaker 1: I do think none of us not none of us me. 168 00:08:32,984 --> 00:08:35,504 Speaker 1: I don't know how to deal with blind people because 169 00:08:35,544 --> 00:08:37,864 Speaker 1: I lived on twenty third between ninth and tenth, which 170 00:08:37,904 --> 00:08:41,264 Speaker 1: is two blocks from Vision, which is the place that 171 00:08:41,584 --> 00:08:43,584 Speaker 1: has a lot of blind people living there in services, 172 00:08:43,624 --> 00:08:47,464 Speaker 1: and and so I'd constantly be at the crosswalk with 173 00:08:47,504 --> 00:08:50,144 Speaker 1: a blind person, yeah, not knowing if I should make 174 00:08:50,184 --> 00:08:52,184 Speaker 1: an offer to help or not. But I didn't know 175 00:08:52,224 --> 00:08:53,184 Speaker 1: what I was supposed to do. 176 00:08:53,704 --> 00:08:56,784 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll tell you offering is fine. 177 00:08:57,064 --> 00:08:58,864 Speaker 1: Fine or good? There's a difference. 178 00:08:59,384 --> 00:09:00,264 Speaker 4: I would say fine. 179 00:09:00,384 --> 00:09:01,744 Speaker 2: I mean it's it's tough because you got to make 180 00:09:01,784 --> 00:09:04,064 Speaker 2: the judgment call and like if I was about to say, 181 00:09:04,464 --> 00:09:08,064 Speaker 2: if they seem like they need help, then you can offer, 182 00:09:08,104 --> 00:09:10,024 Speaker 2: and if not, just leave them alone. But like, the 183 00:09:10,064 --> 00:09:13,704 Speaker 2: general public's perception of what seeming like you need help 184 00:09:13,824 --> 00:09:17,624 Speaker 2: is for anybody with a disability is grossly, wildly inflated, 185 00:09:17,824 --> 00:09:20,824 Speaker 2: because basically, like being blind on a street corner equals 186 00:09:20,824 --> 00:09:22,904 Speaker 2: seems like they need help for most people, and the 187 00:09:22,944 --> 00:09:25,584 Speaker 2: reality is it's not, especially if you're on like that. 188 00:09:25,824 --> 00:09:27,984 Speaker 2: They live there, right, they probably have walked that, done 189 00:09:28,024 --> 00:09:30,584 Speaker 2: that crossing a dozen times. Imagine you, right, you're on 190 00:09:30,624 --> 00:09:33,304 Speaker 2: your way to work, You're on West twenty third Street, 191 00:09:33,944 --> 00:09:36,904 Speaker 2: and somebody says to you, like that's the Empire State Building, 192 00:09:36,984 --> 00:09:40,144 Speaker 2: you know, and you're like fuck you, Like I live 193 00:09:40,144 --> 00:09:41,784 Speaker 2: in New York, Like I don't need you know. It's 194 00:09:41,904 --> 00:09:44,464 Speaker 2: that level of like oh, little child, like is your 195 00:09:44,504 --> 00:09:45,504 Speaker 2: mommy somewhere else? 196 00:09:45,784 --> 00:09:47,144 Speaker 4: And it's it's infuriating. 197 00:09:47,264 --> 00:09:50,384 Speaker 1: Also, I think from what I remember, the blind people 198 00:09:50,384 --> 00:09:52,584 Speaker 1: were moving at a slightly different pace than me, slower, 199 00:09:52,824 --> 00:09:55,384 Speaker 1: and so that's when I get confused about whether someone 200 00:09:55,384 --> 00:09:57,744 Speaker 1: wanted help, because I want everyone to be moving at 201 00:09:57,744 --> 00:09:58,424 Speaker 1: the same pace as me. 202 00:09:59,064 --> 00:10:01,624 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean, this is like the kind of 203 00:10:01,984 --> 00:10:03,544 Speaker 2: I think you're touching on like a kind of core 204 00:10:03,664 --> 00:10:07,984 Speaker 2: idea in disability, which is like it makes people uncomfortable 205 00:10:08,064 --> 00:10:11,304 Speaker 2: when the norm are challenged a little bit, and any 206 00:10:11,304 --> 00:10:14,664 Speaker 2: disability challenges norms, you know. Nowadays, with my cane, I've 207 00:10:14,664 --> 00:10:17,384 Speaker 2: had this experience numerous times recently where I'll be in 208 00:10:17,424 --> 00:10:19,504 Speaker 2: a restaurant trying to find the bathroom, and I'll end 209 00:10:19,584 --> 00:10:22,264 Speaker 2: up in a weird little alcove where like there's a 210 00:10:22,264 --> 00:10:24,384 Speaker 2: pair of people on a date, you know, and I'm 211 00:10:24,424 --> 00:10:26,784 Speaker 2: suddenly like at their table as though I'm a waiter, 212 00:10:26,984 --> 00:10:29,184 Speaker 2: but instead I'm just like random blind dude. But the 213 00:10:29,224 --> 00:10:30,744 Speaker 2: more I do it, the more I'm like, that's just 214 00:10:30,784 --> 00:10:32,704 Speaker 2: like my way of finding the bathroom is I might 215 00:10:32,824 --> 00:10:34,264 Speaker 2: end up in a couple of cul de sacs, but 216 00:10:34,344 --> 00:10:36,344 Speaker 2: like I don't need anybody to grab my elbow and 217 00:10:36,384 --> 00:10:38,744 Speaker 2: take me there. I just realize, oh, I veered too 218 00:10:38,784 --> 00:10:40,664 Speaker 2: far to the left. I'm going to zoop around to 219 00:10:40,704 --> 00:10:42,544 Speaker 2: the right and look at that I'm at the bathroom. 220 00:10:42,984 --> 00:10:45,304 Speaker 2: And to me, more and more, I'm like, that is 221 00:10:45,624 --> 00:10:47,944 Speaker 2: a blind way of finding the bathroom in a dark restaurant, 222 00:10:48,024 --> 00:10:51,064 Speaker 2: and I'm comfortable with that. But I think the thing 223 00:10:51,184 --> 00:10:55,224 Speaker 2: that I would like you to appreciate is basically that 224 00:10:55,344 --> 00:10:57,464 Speaker 2: like that wasn't being lost. I don't need to be 225 00:10:57,464 --> 00:10:59,584 Speaker 2: embarrassed about that. You don't need to be embarrassed about that. 226 00:10:59,584 --> 00:11:02,064 Speaker 2: That's just like how I do it right. 227 00:11:02,224 --> 00:11:05,144 Speaker 1: It's almost like dealing with a different culture that you 228 00:11:05,184 --> 00:11:08,784 Speaker 1: don't You don't impose your culture on the Japanese when 229 00:11:08,784 --> 00:11:08,944 Speaker 1: you go. 230 00:11:09,344 --> 00:11:11,224 Speaker 2: It's not almost like it it is. I mean, disability 231 00:11:11,224 --> 00:11:12,584 Speaker 2: culture is a different culture. 232 00:11:12,784 --> 00:11:13,384 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 233 00:11:14,064 --> 00:11:17,264 Speaker 1: Okay, So you knew your condition was going to get worse, 234 00:11:17,264 --> 00:11:19,224 Speaker 1: So how did you decide to prepare for that? 235 00:11:19,704 --> 00:11:23,504 Speaker 2: I think, like most people with RP, I postponed it 236 00:11:23,544 --> 00:11:26,944 Speaker 2: for as long as I possibly could, until I was 237 00:11:27,144 --> 00:11:30,104 Speaker 2: in this situation where I'm like, Okay, things are getting 238 00:11:30,144 --> 00:11:33,264 Speaker 2: more and more dangerous. And the most important thing that 239 00:11:33,824 --> 00:11:36,184 Speaker 2: I did, and that any person who's going through what 240 00:11:36,264 --> 00:11:39,584 Speaker 2: I was going through can do, is to get blindness skills. 241 00:11:39,744 --> 00:11:42,744 Speaker 2: And I'd started to get some blindness skills from my 242 00:11:43,024 --> 00:11:46,424 Speaker 2: local sort of state Commission for the Blind, where a 243 00:11:46,704 --> 00:11:49,344 Speaker 2: rail instructor came to my house, and there was a 244 00:11:49,424 --> 00:11:51,864 Speaker 2: cane instructor, there was a guy who showed me sort 245 00:11:51,864 --> 00:11:54,864 Speaker 2: of techniques of daily living. But all of those people 246 00:11:54,864 --> 00:11:57,184 Speaker 2: were cited, and I had been doing more and more 247 00:11:57,224 --> 00:12:00,744 Speaker 2: research and realizing that there were other ways of learning 248 00:12:00,784 --> 00:12:03,104 Speaker 2: how to be blind out there that were in fact 249 00:12:03,184 --> 00:12:05,824 Speaker 2: quite different from what I was getting from the State Commission. 250 00:12:05,824 --> 00:12:08,424 Speaker 2: And so finally, after a while, I decided I would 251 00:12:08,464 --> 00:12:11,304 Speaker 2: go to the Colorado Center for the Blind, which is 252 00:12:11,344 --> 00:12:14,384 Speaker 2: one of the National Federation of the Blind's three residential 253 00:12:14,424 --> 00:12:19,064 Speaker 2: training centers. And normally the stay is nine months. Because 254 00:12:19,504 --> 00:12:22,424 Speaker 2: I had a young son and you know, a lot 255 00:12:22,464 --> 00:12:23,944 Speaker 2: of other things going on, I didn't feel like I 256 00:12:23,944 --> 00:12:26,064 Speaker 2: could go for nine months, but they let me go 257 00:12:26,144 --> 00:12:28,024 Speaker 2: for two weeks, and then I ended up going back 258 00:12:28,504 --> 00:12:30,944 Speaker 2: like a year later for another two weeks. And so 259 00:12:30,984 --> 00:12:33,304 Speaker 2: I think everything I say about it should have that 260 00:12:33,424 --> 00:12:35,464 Speaker 2: asterisk next to it that, like, the real training is 261 00:12:35,504 --> 00:12:36,384 Speaker 2: a full nine months. 262 00:12:36,664 --> 00:12:39,584 Speaker 1: And what are the politics of this organization, because I 263 00:12:39,624 --> 00:12:42,304 Speaker 1: know in the blind community there's different philosophies. 264 00:12:42,544 --> 00:12:42,824 Speaker 4: Yeah. 265 00:12:42,864 --> 00:12:45,344 Speaker 2: So the National Federation of the Blind was founded in 266 00:12:45,464 --> 00:12:48,744 Speaker 2: nineteen forty and they really are the first instance in 267 00:12:48,824 --> 00:12:52,224 Speaker 2: the US of an organization by the blind for the blind. Like, 268 00:12:52,264 --> 00:12:55,384 Speaker 2: there is a really really strong history in the history 269 00:12:55,384 --> 00:12:58,464 Speaker 2: of blindness of cited people with exceedingly low expectations for 270 00:12:58,504 --> 00:13:01,584 Speaker 2: what blind people are capable of teaching them the bare 271 00:13:01,624 --> 00:13:06,744 Speaker 2: minimum and basically like feeding them into lives of smallness 272 00:13:06,744 --> 00:13:10,664 Speaker 2: with good intentions, but they have failed to give people 273 00:13:10,784 --> 00:13:13,304 Speaker 2: real independence. Is the NFB's contingent. I think if you 274 00:13:13,344 --> 00:13:16,464 Speaker 2: look at the history of blindness, there's example after example 275 00:13:16,784 --> 00:13:23,504 Speaker 2: of the failure of cited people to imagine a rich, full, successful, independent, 276 00:13:23,624 --> 00:13:26,464 Speaker 2: joyful blind life. And you really see that in the 277 00:13:26,504 --> 00:13:29,664 Speaker 2: outcomes of the seventy percent unemployment rate for one. 278 00:13:30,144 --> 00:13:34,744 Speaker 1: Oh wow, Okay, so this is a slightly more libertarian take, 279 00:13:34,904 --> 00:13:36,984 Speaker 1: is that it is that we can teach ourselves to 280 00:13:37,024 --> 00:13:37,544 Speaker 1: do anything. 281 00:13:37,984 --> 00:13:38,304 Speaker 4: Yeah. 282 00:13:38,384 --> 00:13:42,864 Speaker 2: So everyone who works at the NFB training centers is 283 00:13:42,904 --> 00:13:46,464 Speaker 2: blind with very few exceptions. And they have a former 284 00:13:46,584 --> 00:13:48,744 Speaker 2: YMCA that they bought in Littleton, which is one of 285 00:13:48,744 --> 00:13:51,264 Speaker 2: the like cities within Denver. You know, it's like got 286 00:13:51,304 --> 00:13:53,544 Speaker 2: the same footprint of the YMCA, but it's just wild 287 00:13:53,584 --> 00:13:56,064 Speaker 2: because it's a completely blind space. Like the receptionist is 288 00:13:56,064 --> 00:13:58,664 Speaker 2: blind and you walk in and she's like, who's that 289 00:13:58,784 --> 00:14:00,384 Speaker 2: you know, and then you kind of engage with her. 290 00:14:00,504 --> 00:14:03,144 Speaker 2: And there's a braille typewriter right there that every time 291 00:14:03,144 --> 00:14:04,584 Speaker 2: you come in or go out, you sign her out. 292 00:14:04,824 --> 00:14:07,344 Speaker 2: It was an incredible experience for me arriving there, because, 293 00:14:07,704 --> 00:14:10,424 Speaker 2: you know, as somebody who had felt so isolated in 294 00:14:10,464 --> 00:14:13,184 Speaker 2: my experience of blindness and even curious if I counted 295 00:14:13,184 --> 00:14:17,464 Speaker 2: as blind, suddenly I was deeply immersed and included. 296 00:14:17,344 --> 00:14:18,304 Speaker 4: And it felt really good. 297 00:14:18,744 --> 00:14:20,544 Speaker 2: The thing I should say is that all of the 298 00:14:20,584 --> 00:14:23,344 Speaker 2: training there, you're wearing sleep shades unless you have a 299 00:14:23,384 --> 00:14:25,304 Speaker 2: no from your doctor that says you have no light perception, 300 00:14:25,344 --> 00:14:27,464 Speaker 2: which is really only like fifteen percent of blind people 301 00:14:27,504 --> 00:14:28,624 Speaker 2: have no light perception at all. 302 00:14:29,264 --> 00:14:32,464 Speaker 1: Everybody just being like one of those masks that you get, like. 303 00:14:32,824 --> 00:14:35,384 Speaker 2: I always associate them with like fancy people on airplanes 304 00:14:35,544 --> 00:14:36,384 Speaker 2: or a sleep mask. 305 00:14:36,904 --> 00:14:38,704 Speaker 1: So you put these on the whole time you're. 306 00:14:38,544 --> 00:14:42,544 Speaker 2: There to eight to four pm Monday through Friday. You 307 00:14:42,584 --> 00:14:45,424 Speaker 2: are occluded and you get in trouble if you take 308 00:14:45,464 --> 00:14:48,184 Speaker 2: them off, although everybody's blind, so how are they really 309 00:14:48,184 --> 00:14:49,104 Speaker 2: going to know you took it off? 310 00:14:49,144 --> 00:14:52,784 Speaker 1: But yeah, So what's a typical day of blindness training? 311 00:14:52,944 --> 00:14:56,704 Speaker 2: Like, so typical day at the Colorado Center is you 312 00:14:56,704 --> 00:14:59,224 Speaker 2: wake up at the apartments and everybody gathers at the 313 00:14:59,224 --> 00:15:01,584 Speaker 2: bus stop and it's wild because like it's just a 314 00:15:01,584 --> 00:15:04,224 Speaker 2: regular city bus, but like there's that one stop that 315 00:15:04,224 --> 00:15:07,224 Speaker 2: every morning at seven forty one, like two dozen blind 316 00:15:07,264 --> 00:15:08,944 Speaker 2: people just like storm it and it's just like this 317 00:15:09,104 --> 00:15:12,664 Speaker 2: fun like blind bus, you know, and then everybody gets 318 00:15:12,664 --> 00:15:15,344 Speaker 2: off at the Littleton station and then it's like school. 319 00:15:15,424 --> 00:15:16,984 Speaker 2: You know, it's like college a little bit where there's 320 00:15:17,024 --> 00:15:19,424 Speaker 2: like blocks of classes and you might have like braille 321 00:15:19,424 --> 00:15:21,984 Speaker 2: and home management in the morning and then long travel 322 00:15:22,144 --> 00:15:22,824 Speaker 2: in the afternoon. 323 00:15:23,184 --> 00:15:25,944 Speaker 1: Is it like college or summer camp? Like do people 324 00:15:26,024 --> 00:15:28,304 Speaker 1: make friends or people hooking up? What's it like? 325 00:15:29,344 --> 00:15:33,864 Speaker 2: It is a little bit of a Hogwarts for blind people, 326 00:15:33,864 --> 00:15:35,824 Speaker 2: I would say, And there you know, they've got roommates 327 00:15:35,824 --> 00:15:38,304 Speaker 2: and that the weekends people are grilling and drinking and 328 00:15:38,344 --> 00:15:39,344 Speaker 2: it's a whole scene. 329 00:15:39,544 --> 00:15:43,904 Speaker 1: Do you think anyone was hitting on you? 330 00:15:43,984 --> 00:15:44,984 Speaker 4: No, I don't think so. 331 00:15:45,144 --> 00:15:46,984 Speaker 2: I mean I think people knew that I was married, 332 00:15:47,144 --> 00:15:49,584 Speaker 2: although that hasn't stopped plenty of folks there from hooking up, 333 00:15:49,584 --> 00:15:51,984 Speaker 2: because you do, like they leave their sighted spouses behind 334 00:15:51,984 --> 00:15:54,184 Speaker 2: at home and then they're there and that feeling I 335 00:15:54,464 --> 00:15:58,264 Speaker 2: was describing of sort of being suddenly like among peers 336 00:15:58,664 --> 00:16:01,704 Speaker 2: is really intoxicating. But I love my wife dearly. I 337 00:16:01,744 --> 00:16:04,384 Speaker 2: was not any risk of making out with any blind people. 338 00:16:04,784 --> 00:16:07,144 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I imagine if that happens at teachers conventions 339 00:16:07,144 --> 00:16:09,784 Speaker 1: where it's just like, oh, you're a teacher too, totally 340 00:16:09,904 --> 00:16:13,344 Speaker 1: imagine this is much more intense. So what do you 341 00:16:13,384 --> 00:16:15,664 Speaker 1: have to do to finally graduate from this place? 342 00:16:16,104 --> 00:16:19,344 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, like there's final tests in all of the subjects. 343 00:16:19,384 --> 00:16:21,024 Speaker 2: So like the cooking final test is you have to 344 00:16:21,024 --> 00:16:23,224 Speaker 2: cook a meal for the entire center, which is like 345 00:16:23,264 --> 00:16:26,504 Speaker 2: sixty people, and you do all the shopping undersleep shades. 346 00:16:26,544 --> 00:16:28,224 Speaker 1: So cited people your age can't do that. 347 00:16:29,904 --> 00:16:32,104 Speaker 2: I mean if they had nine months to work their 348 00:16:32,144 --> 00:16:34,264 Speaker 2: way up to it, they could. What'd you make a 349 00:16:34,384 --> 00:16:37,384 Speaker 2: kale salad and a red lentil soup? And I made 350 00:16:37,384 --> 00:16:39,864 Speaker 2: it for I think like six people in my apartment. 351 00:16:40,184 --> 00:16:41,544 Speaker 2: And then there's like, you know, in the tech class, 352 00:16:41,584 --> 00:16:45,264 Speaker 2: you have to like format Microsoft word documents properly. But 353 00:16:45,304 --> 00:16:49,624 Speaker 2: then the big famous thing that everybody talks about, and 354 00:16:49,664 --> 00:16:55,064 Speaker 2: it's mind boggling even to blind people, is they drive 355 00:16:55,104 --> 00:16:59,304 Speaker 2: you around under sleep shades in circles around Denver. You 356 00:16:59,344 --> 00:17:01,104 Speaker 2: have no idea where you are, you know, so some 357 00:17:01,144 --> 00:17:03,464 Speaker 2: people who are super advanced, they'll drop them off like 358 00:17:03,704 --> 00:17:05,864 Speaker 2: three cities over on the top of a parking garage, 359 00:17:05,864 --> 00:17:09,584 Speaker 2: which is a very confusing place for a blind. Parking 360 00:17:09,624 --> 00:17:10,624 Speaker 2: lots in general. 361 00:17:10,344 --> 00:17:12,864 Speaker 1: If you're cited, I can never find my car. It's 362 00:17:12,984 --> 00:17:15,464 Speaker 1: parking lots are mazes. They're hard. 363 00:17:15,544 --> 00:17:16,984 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's nuts. 364 00:17:17,144 --> 00:17:19,864 Speaker 2: But regardless, everybody to graduate has to do some version 365 00:17:19,904 --> 00:17:22,224 Speaker 2: of this test, which is called the independent drop. They 366 00:17:22,304 --> 00:17:24,704 Speaker 2: let you off and then they say, okay, find your 367 00:17:24,704 --> 00:17:25,184 Speaker 2: way back. 368 00:17:25,304 --> 00:17:26,304 Speaker 1: Okay, So what are the rules? 369 00:17:26,504 --> 00:17:30,424 Speaker 2: Rules are no smartphone, You can only ask one person 370 00:17:30,584 --> 00:17:31,224 Speaker 2: one question. 371 00:17:31,624 --> 00:17:34,264 Speaker 1: You can only you can ask one person one question. 372 00:17:34,464 --> 00:17:38,024 Speaker 1: That's crazy. I don't think you take most people without 373 00:17:38,024 --> 00:17:39,704 Speaker 1: his cell phone and drop them somewhere and hope they 374 00:17:39,704 --> 00:17:42,744 Speaker 1: would get back with all the sight in the world. Yeah, 375 00:17:42,984 --> 00:17:45,944 Speaker 1: had you heard like horror stories about the drop that 376 00:17:46,024 --> 00:17:46,504 Speaker 1: scared you? 377 00:17:46,824 --> 00:17:47,464 Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. 378 00:17:47,584 --> 00:17:50,344 Speaker 2: I heard an account by a blind historian named Zachary 379 00:17:50,384 --> 00:17:53,064 Speaker 2: Shore who talked about the first time he did it. 380 00:17:53,184 --> 00:17:55,984 Speaker 2: And this is a good strategy I've found, but a 381 00:17:56,024 --> 00:17:58,624 Speaker 2: can backfire, as he discovered where he just sort of 382 00:17:59,504 --> 00:18:01,784 Speaker 2: heard a busy street and at a certain point of 383 00:18:01,784 --> 00:18:03,504 Speaker 2: your loss, like kind of picking a direction of just 384 00:18:03,504 --> 00:18:05,184 Speaker 2: going with it sort of makes sense, and you're like, 385 00:18:05,264 --> 00:18:08,104 Speaker 2: I'm going to find something that will be helpful, and 386 00:18:08,144 --> 00:18:09,904 Speaker 2: so he just sort of upburnly did that for a 387 00:18:09,904 --> 00:18:12,544 Speaker 2: really long time, and then a car pulled over next 388 00:18:12,544 --> 00:18:13,824 Speaker 2: to himhich're going to have to be a cop car 389 00:18:13,824 --> 00:18:15,784 Speaker 2: and they said, my friend, you're about to walk onto 390 00:18:15,784 --> 00:18:18,584 Speaker 2: the highway, and he jumped in the cop car and 391 00:18:18,584 --> 00:18:20,424 Speaker 2: they took him back to the center, you know, to 392 00:18:20,424 --> 00:18:22,744 Speaker 2: give you a sense of the intensity of these of 393 00:18:22,784 --> 00:18:23,704 Speaker 2: these training centers. 394 00:18:24,184 --> 00:18:24,344 Speaker 4: You know. 395 00:18:24,344 --> 00:18:26,024 Speaker 2: When he got back, the director was like, you failed 396 00:18:26,024 --> 00:18:27,584 Speaker 2: this time. We're going to make you do it again. 397 00:18:27,744 --> 00:18:29,984 Speaker 2: We're going to give you even harder drop next time, 398 00:18:29,984 --> 00:18:31,424 Speaker 2: and then next time you're going to do it, and 399 00:18:31,464 --> 00:18:33,224 Speaker 2: then lo and behold, next time he did it. 400 00:18:34,584 --> 00:18:37,184 Speaker 1: When we come back, Andrew will be dropped off in 401 00:18:37,264 --> 00:18:41,664 Speaker 1: the middle of nowhere. But first our advertisers are going 402 00:18:41,744 --> 00:18:45,624 Speaker 1: do we even have advertisers? I've never listened to this podcast. 403 00:18:52,104 --> 00:18:54,784 Speaker 1: So you've been doing all of this training and it's 404 00:18:54,864 --> 00:18:59,184 Speaker 1: leading up to this big final test, your independent drop. 405 00:18:59,824 --> 00:19:01,064 Speaker 1: How does that go down? 406 00:19:01,624 --> 00:19:04,024 Speaker 2: So there's a big morning meeting where everybody takes rold 407 00:19:04,064 --> 00:19:06,064 Speaker 2: call and then one of the travel teachers is like 408 00:19:06,104 --> 00:19:09,424 Speaker 2: an Todays for Andrew's independent drop, and everybody is like, 409 00:19:09,744 --> 00:19:15,544 Speaker 2: h everybody's cheering and razzing me, and you know there's like, oh, 410 00:19:15,624 --> 00:19:17,504 Speaker 2: I guess we'll say goodbye to him now because you'll 411 00:19:17,504 --> 00:19:19,144 Speaker 2: never see him again, like that kind of stuff. 412 00:19:19,384 --> 00:19:23,224 Speaker 1: WHOA, Okay, Yeah, so you head out on your independent 413 00:19:23,344 --> 00:19:26,384 Speaker 1: drop and you've got those sleep shades on, and they 414 00:19:26,384 --> 00:19:28,584 Speaker 1: put you in a van and drive you around in 415 00:19:28,664 --> 00:19:31,904 Speaker 1: circles until they finally drop you off somewhere in Denver. 416 00:19:32,424 --> 00:19:32,624 Speaker 4: Yeah. 417 00:19:32,624 --> 00:19:34,224 Speaker 2: So I get in the van. The one of the 418 00:19:34,224 --> 00:19:38,424 Speaker 2: only sighted employees at the place, Josie, is driving me. 419 00:19:38,544 --> 00:19:40,064 Speaker 2: She seems more nervous than I am. I think she's 420 00:19:40,144 --> 00:19:42,984 Speaker 2: very unhappy about the like only one month in support 421 00:19:43,224 --> 00:19:46,264 Speaker 2: independent drop thing. And then she finally drops me off 422 00:19:46,304 --> 00:19:49,984 Speaker 2: and I get out, and I'm being very careful because 423 00:19:49,984 --> 00:19:54,224 Speaker 2: the thing is like when you're sighted and you get 424 00:19:54,264 --> 00:19:57,184 Speaker 2: confused or turned around. I think instinctually we all do 425 00:19:57,224 --> 00:19:59,384 Speaker 2: this where you kind of like do three sixty turn 426 00:19:59,584 --> 00:20:01,304 Speaker 2: your feet all the way around and the site keeps 427 00:20:01,344 --> 00:20:03,744 Speaker 2: you oriented right. But if you're blind, that is a 428 00:20:03,864 --> 00:20:06,944 Speaker 2: very bad idea because every one of those turns is 429 00:20:06,984 --> 00:20:09,664 Speaker 2: a chance that you're just gonna mess up which direction 430 00:20:09,704 --> 00:20:11,784 Speaker 2: you are right, not whole map. It was almost like 431 00:20:11,824 --> 00:20:14,624 Speaker 2: I landed from the van, was like a lunar lander, 432 00:20:14,704 --> 00:20:16,864 Speaker 2: you know, and I just like had planted my feet 433 00:20:16,904 --> 00:20:18,464 Speaker 2: on this new planet a little bit, and I was 434 00:20:18,504 --> 00:20:21,784 Speaker 2: like every step felt important in that first moment. I remember, 435 00:20:21,864 --> 00:20:23,824 Speaker 2: like on that sidewalk, so I felt with my cane 436 00:20:23,824 --> 00:20:27,184 Speaker 2: and I felt the grass line, and I found that 437 00:20:27,224 --> 00:20:29,584 Speaker 2: the curb. I felt the son on my face. It 438 00:20:29,704 --> 00:20:31,864 Speaker 2: was like, you know, eight thirty in the morning. So 439 00:20:31,904 --> 00:20:35,504 Speaker 2: I was like, okay, I'm facing east. And the thing 440 00:20:35,544 --> 00:20:39,504 Speaker 2: everybody tells you is find a bus. And there're one 441 00:20:39,584 --> 00:20:43,144 Speaker 2: question for one person smart money is you asked the 442 00:20:43,144 --> 00:20:46,904 Speaker 2: bus driver where how do I get to Littleton Downtown station? 443 00:20:46,984 --> 00:20:51,064 Speaker 2: Because at that point everybody knows backwards and forwards getting 444 00:20:51,104 --> 00:20:53,824 Speaker 2: from downtown Littleton station to the center. And so then 445 00:20:54,464 --> 00:20:58,664 Speaker 2: the sort of corollary is, if you want to find 446 00:20:58,664 --> 00:21:01,104 Speaker 2: a bus, you want to find a busy street, right, 447 00:21:01,184 --> 00:21:03,864 Speaker 2: So every pretty much everybody is the same thing I did, 448 00:21:03,904 --> 00:21:06,824 Speaker 2: which is you listen and you listen for where that 449 00:21:06,824 --> 00:21:09,704 Speaker 2: busier street is. And so I knew I was east. 450 00:21:10,544 --> 00:21:12,904 Speaker 2: It sounded quiet to the east. I kind of heard 451 00:21:12,904 --> 00:21:15,464 Speaker 2: something behind me, some traffic, like distant traffic, and so 452 00:21:15,504 --> 00:21:18,864 Speaker 2: I turned around and I started walking west. Twenty seconds later, 453 00:21:18,904 --> 00:21:21,904 Speaker 2: I'm at a corner and I can feel the corner 454 00:21:21,984 --> 00:21:24,224 Speaker 2: right with my cane, and then I have a decision, 455 00:21:24,224 --> 00:21:25,384 Speaker 2: Am I going to go north or south? 456 00:21:25,464 --> 00:21:25,624 Speaker 4: Right? 457 00:21:26,264 --> 00:21:29,304 Speaker 2: And I heard more traffic to the north, so I 458 00:21:29,344 --> 00:21:29,904 Speaker 2: took a left. 459 00:21:30,424 --> 00:21:33,224 Speaker 1: But this is incredible, Like before you did this, would 460 00:21:33,264 --> 00:21:35,664 Speaker 1: you have had a sense in your head at all 461 00:21:35,664 --> 00:21:37,384 Speaker 1: times of which way's north, south, east and west? 462 00:21:37,464 --> 00:21:37,704 Speaker 4: Never? 463 00:21:37,824 --> 00:21:39,744 Speaker 2: And And honestly, like it's been a couple of months 464 00:21:39,744 --> 00:21:42,144 Speaker 2: since I did this, and of its atrophied, like because 465 00:21:42,144 --> 00:21:44,704 Speaker 2: I haven't worn sleep shades that much and I haven't 466 00:21:44,784 --> 00:21:46,624 Speaker 2: practiced this, and it's I feel bad. I feel like 467 00:21:46,624 --> 00:21:48,304 Speaker 2: I haven't been going to the gym, you know. 468 00:21:48,544 --> 00:21:50,504 Speaker 1: But Okay, so you're at this corner and you're listening 469 00:21:50,504 --> 00:21:52,504 Speaker 1: for traffic and walking in that direction. 470 00:21:53,144 --> 00:21:59,504 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's just interesting like what I am picking up, 471 00:21:59,544 --> 00:22:01,224 Speaker 2: not just in terms of orientation, but just you know, 472 00:22:01,304 --> 00:22:04,264 Speaker 2: I also just have like a curiosity about where I am, 473 00:22:04,784 --> 00:22:07,744 Speaker 2: and like my cane hits a what really feels to 474 00:22:07,784 --> 00:22:09,744 Speaker 2: me like a piece of ply that's on the front 475 00:22:09,744 --> 00:22:11,464 Speaker 2: of a building, and that that to me signals like 476 00:22:11,464 --> 00:22:13,464 Speaker 2: a kind of a run down situation. 477 00:22:13,504 --> 00:22:14,704 Speaker 4: You know, like why is I like plywood? 478 00:22:14,904 --> 00:22:17,104 Speaker 2: And then like a dog starts barking behind the plywood, 479 00:22:17,144 --> 00:22:19,464 Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, that's interesting, Like is this 480 00:22:19,504 --> 00:22:21,304 Speaker 2: like a residence or something, you know. 481 00:22:21,264 --> 00:22:23,264 Speaker 1: And you're scary. 482 00:22:23,504 --> 00:22:24,104 Speaker 4: Uh. 483 00:22:24,184 --> 00:22:26,384 Speaker 2: I was a little scared, not of the dog, but 484 00:22:26,504 --> 00:22:29,824 Speaker 2: just of like, you know, bothering somebody or you know, 485 00:22:29,904 --> 00:22:32,024 Speaker 2: like because I didn't know exactly where I was, so 486 00:22:32,064 --> 00:22:34,104 Speaker 2: it was like I had accidentally wandered to somebody. I 487 00:22:34,144 --> 00:22:35,984 Speaker 2: didn't think I was in somebody's yard, but it was definitely. 488 00:22:36,064 --> 00:22:38,584 Speaker 2: I was overwhelmed, and especially in those first minutes, like 489 00:22:38,664 --> 00:22:42,184 Speaker 2: extra overwhelmed. So, like, one thing that's really difficult while 490 00:22:42,264 --> 00:22:46,744 Speaker 2: doing blind cane travel is driveways just mess me up 491 00:22:47,104 --> 00:22:50,304 Speaker 2: because you'll be walking and you know, there's like the 492 00:22:50,384 --> 00:22:52,664 Speaker 2: concrete of the sidewalk and it gives way to the 493 00:22:52,664 --> 00:22:55,664 Speaker 2: asphalt of a driveway, but the roads are asphalt too, 494 00:22:55,944 --> 00:23:00,904 Speaker 2: and so that change in texture. Sometimes it's ambiguous, like 495 00:23:01,064 --> 00:23:02,624 Speaker 2: is this a am I at a corner? Or is 496 00:23:02,744 --> 00:23:05,064 Speaker 2: I just like crossing and there's like a supermarket there, 497 00:23:05,144 --> 00:23:07,064 Speaker 2: you know, And I felt one of those and I 498 00:23:07,104 --> 00:23:08,744 Speaker 2: was like, uh, I kind of feel like this is 499 00:23:08,784 --> 00:23:11,224 Speaker 2: a but I'm not sure. And because it was like 500 00:23:11,304 --> 00:23:13,784 Speaker 2: my first time alone, and like I was being very 501 00:23:13,784 --> 00:23:15,744 Speaker 2: meticulous about it. And then suddenly I heard a guy 502 00:23:16,064 --> 00:23:19,264 Speaker 2: had pulled his car. He had like slowed his truck, 503 00:23:19,264 --> 00:23:21,304 Speaker 2: and he's like, you lose something, buddy, because I think 504 00:23:21,304 --> 00:23:23,384 Speaker 2: I just looked like I had like dropped my keys 505 00:23:23,464 --> 00:23:26,544 Speaker 2: or something. And I was like, no, I'm just just exploring, 506 00:23:27,064 --> 00:23:28,984 Speaker 2: and he was like all right, you know, and he 507 00:23:29,064 --> 00:23:29,624 Speaker 2: like kept. 508 00:23:29,464 --> 00:23:32,384 Speaker 1: Going just to exploring always a good answer. 509 00:23:32,624 --> 00:23:36,064 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my new stock answer. But I mustered the courage. 510 00:23:36,064 --> 00:23:38,344 Speaker 2: I crossed the driveway, made it to another corner, and 511 00:23:38,384 --> 00:23:40,984 Speaker 2: then from there then I finally made it to what 512 00:23:41,144 --> 00:23:45,584 Speaker 2: was clearly a busy artery. And then I had another decision. 513 00:23:45,584 --> 00:23:47,144 Speaker 2: You know, am I going to go left or right? 514 00:23:47,704 --> 00:23:50,824 Speaker 2: And I kind of felt like going with the flow 515 00:23:50,824 --> 00:23:53,104 Speaker 2: of traffic made sense. So I just went with the 516 00:23:53,104 --> 00:23:55,984 Speaker 2: flow of traffic, crossed a number of streets, and then 517 00:23:56,024 --> 00:23:58,744 Speaker 2: I finally got to another intersection that was clearly like 518 00:23:58,784 --> 00:24:00,544 Speaker 2: an even bigger artery, and I was like, Okay, this 519 00:24:00,584 --> 00:24:01,944 Speaker 2: has got to be where the bus is. That was 520 00:24:01,984 --> 00:24:03,864 Speaker 2: the first time I was actually scared, because it was 521 00:24:04,304 --> 00:24:05,944 Speaker 2: I stood there for a really long time listening because 522 00:24:05,944 --> 00:24:07,264 Speaker 2: this is what I've been trained to do, is like 523 00:24:07,304 --> 00:24:09,584 Speaker 2: you listen to the traffic pattern. If you stand there 524 00:24:09,584 --> 00:24:11,744 Speaker 2: long enough and you pay enough attention, you can figure 525 00:24:11,744 --> 00:24:13,904 Speaker 2: it out. You're like, Okay, I can clearly hear that 526 00:24:13,944 --> 00:24:16,144 Speaker 2: there's four lanes here, you know, two going one direction 527 00:24:16,184 --> 00:24:18,104 Speaker 2: to going the other, because I heard a car, you know, 528 00:24:18,424 --> 00:24:20,984 Speaker 2: go close. But also about like what there is there 529 00:24:21,024 --> 00:24:21,544 Speaker 2: an arrow? 530 00:24:22,344 --> 00:24:23,944 Speaker 4: You know? When are the left turners coming? 531 00:24:24,424 --> 00:24:24,584 Speaker 1: Oh? 532 00:24:24,704 --> 00:24:24,864 Speaker 4: Right? 533 00:24:25,704 --> 00:24:27,904 Speaker 2: And so it's a lot of thinking about the timing. 534 00:24:28,184 --> 00:24:30,384 Speaker 2: So I just stood there for probably ten minutes just 535 00:24:30,464 --> 00:24:32,504 Speaker 2: listening studying this intersection. 536 00:24:33,704 --> 00:24:36,064 Speaker 1: This sounds exhausting, Like that's all I'd be paying attention to. 537 00:24:36,264 --> 00:24:39,104 Speaker 1: There's no room for like thinking about other stuff while 538 00:24:39,144 --> 00:24:39,944 Speaker 1: you're walking around. 539 00:24:40,024 --> 00:24:42,584 Speaker 2: Oh my god, that can't be overstated how exhausting it is. 540 00:24:42,984 --> 00:24:44,944 Speaker 2: I would come back from one of these training sessions 541 00:24:44,984 --> 00:24:46,344 Speaker 2: and I would feel like I had just taken the 542 00:24:46,464 --> 00:24:48,544 Speaker 2: l SAT like eleven times, Like my brain is just 543 00:24:48,864 --> 00:24:52,704 Speaker 2: toothpaste in my head because the cognitive load is really, really. 544 00:24:52,664 --> 00:24:53,984 Speaker 4: Really heavy. 545 00:24:54,024 --> 00:24:55,384 Speaker 1: And did you take the al sets? 546 00:24:55,624 --> 00:24:56,984 Speaker 4: Never taken the alset? Never will? 547 00:24:56,984 --> 00:24:58,904 Speaker 1: That was a weird that's a weird fear you have, 548 00:24:58,984 --> 00:25:00,384 Speaker 1: that's a specific. 549 00:24:59,904 --> 00:25:01,024 Speaker 4: Well I don't know. It seems hard. 550 00:25:01,064 --> 00:25:04,144 Speaker 1: It does sound hard. Yeah, maybe this is my insecurities. 551 00:25:04,184 --> 00:25:06,984 Speaker 1: You sound like you're walking around curious and somewhat confident. 552 00:25:07,424 --> 00:25:11,424 Speaker 1: I feel like i'd be an panic and feel alone 553 00:25:11,744 --> 00:25:16,784 Speaker 1: and I'm not seeing other people. It just sounds claustrophobic. 554 00:25:17,064 --> 00:25:19,224 Speaker 4: I mean it's a journey, you know. 555 00:25:19,464 --> 00:25:21,224 Speaker 2: I think I felt that way, and I'm sure that 556 00:25:21,264 --> 00:25:23,424 Speaker 2: I will continue to feel that way, you know, as 557 00:25:23,464 --> 00:25:27,144 Speaker 2: I become more blind and hit more obstacles. But I 558 00:25:27,144 --> 00:25:31,344 Speaker 2: think the reality of that training is they work you 559 00:25:31,424 --> 00:25:33,624 Speaker 2: up to it, you know. So like the beginning of 560 00:25:33,624 --> 00:25:36,144 Speaker 2: that claustrophobia feeling is like you're just sitting there in 561 00:25:36,144 --> 00:25:37,304 Speaker 2: a room with a bunch of other. 562 00:25:37,184 --> 00:25:39,384 Speaker 4: Blind people, and like you in that you have. 563 00:25:39,384 --> 00:25:42,064 Speaker 2: Hours to just like absorb it and like get from 564 00:25:42,104 --> 00:25:45,624 Speaker 2: the chair to the locker where your lunch is, you know, 565 00:25:45,704 --> 00:25:48,144 Speaker 2: and then back to a different chair, and like that 566 00:25:48,264 --> 00:25:50,224 Speaker 2: experience really shakes some. 567 00:25:50,224 --> 00:25:51,984 Speaker 4: Of the mystery off of it. 568 00:25:52,144 --> 00:25:54,744 Speaker 2: And so by the time you're standing on that busy intersection, 569 00:25:55,584 --> 00:25:58,144 Speaker 2: a lot of that fear and claustrophobia it's still there. 570 00:25:58,144 --> 00:25:59,184 Speaker 2: Like I'm not going to lie to you and be 571 00:25:59,264 --> 00:26:02,144 Speaker 2: like everybody is cool with it. But like you're at 572 00:26:02,184 --> 00:26:03,904 Speaker 2: the level where I mean it's like kind of like 573 00:26:03,944 --> 00:26:06,584 Speaker 2: anything right, Like I feel like you could pick any 574 00:26:06,664 --> 00:26:08,584 Speaker 2: accomplishment at random, and it's like when you're at the 575 00:26:08,624 --> 00:26:10,344 Speaker 2: beginning of the journey, you're like, there's no way I'm 576 00:26:10,384 --> 00:26:13,344 Speaker 2: going to jump out of that plane, write that book, 577 00:26:13,544 --> 00:26:16,064 Speaker 2: you know, like marry that woman whatever, you know, but 578 00:26:16,104 --> 00:26:19,544 Speaker 2: like you get there, right, Marry that woman was maybe 579 00:26:19,544 --> 00:26:22,584 Speaker 2: a mirrored one, the best one. 580 00:26:22,824 --> 00:26:27,184 Speaker 1: Okay. So you're at the intersection for possibly ten minutes. 581 00:26:27,304 --> 00:26:29,664 Speaker 2: And so this guy comes out and he's like, yeah, 582 00:26:29,664 --> 00:26:31,824 Speaker 2: I'm like an electrician working on this hospital. I was like, 583 00:26:31,824 --> 00:26:34,664 Speaker 2: oh hospital, there no idea there was a hospital. And 584 00:26:34,704 --> 00:26:37,544 Speaker 2: he was like I just I saw you standing here 585 00:26:37,544 --> 00:26:39,704 Speaker 2: for a really long time, like are you lost? And 586 00:26:39,744 --> 00:26:41,784 Speaker 2: then this was like the one time I like kind 587 00:26:41,784 --> 00:26:44,144 Speaker 2: of cheated where I was like, oh, no, I'm not lost, 588 00:26:44,184 --> 00:26:46,424 Speaker 2: I'm just looking for a bus stop. And you know 589 00:26:46,624 --> 00:26:48,824 Speaker 2: that does not count as my one question right smart 590 00:26:48,864 --> 00:26:51,784 Speaker 2: but no, no, but it was totally cheating. But he 591 00:26:51,944 --> 00:26:53,624 Speaker 2: was like, oh, hang on, and he like looked at 592 00:26:53,624 --> 00:26:55,704 Speaker 2: his phone, and I could have then been like no, no, 593 00:26:55,824 --> 00:26:57,584 Speaker 2: you mustn't look at your phone, and he was like, oh, yeah, 594 00:26:57,704 --> 00:26:59,464 Speaker 2: just like if you cross the street here, there's a 595 00:26:59,504 --> 00:27:00,824 Speaker 2: bus stop like halfway up that block. 596 00:27:01,464 --> 00:27:03,344 Speaker 1: And I was like, you were fantastic. 597 00:27:02,984 --> 00:27:06,544 Speaker 2: Though, yeah, and I would have found it anyway. But 598 00:27:06,584 --> 00:27:09,184 Speaker 2: it was very relieving to know that I was on 599 00:27:09,224 --> 00:27:12,224 Speaker 2: the right track. But he like, it was like he 600 00:27:12,264 --> 00:27:14,584 Speaker 2: was leaving me to die. He was like, I was like, 601 00:27:14,584 --> 00:27:16,824 Speaker 2: I'm good, thank you, like I got it from here, 602 00:27:16,984 --> 00:27:19,144 Speaker 2: and he was like are you sure, like and I 603 00:27:19,144 --> 00:27:21,104 Speaker 2: was like, hey, I'm like, this is the training I'm doing, and. 604 00:27:21,064 --> 00:27:23,064 Speaker 4: He was like, okay, you know, be well. 605 00:27:23,104 --> 00:27:24,984 Speaker 2: But it was clearly he was just like I just 606 00:27:25,024 --> 00:27:26,984 Speaker 2: am leaving this guy to his death, and it was 607 00:27:27,344 --> 00:27:29,424 Speaker 2: It kind of made me laugh. But he also smelled 608 00:27:29,464 --> 00:27:33,984 Speaker 2: like overwhelmingly of weed and body odor, which was interesting. 609 00:27:34,184 --> 00:27:36,944 Speaker 2: It's a fallacy that blind people smell better or hear 610 00:27:37,024 --> 00:27:41,264 Speaker 2: better than cited people. But when that's all you are 611 00:27:41,304 --> 00:27:44,144 Speaker 2: relying on for like your impression of the world, like 612 00:27:44,184 --> 00:27:46,344 Speaker 2: these things they have a bigger impact, you know, like 613 00:27:46,344 --> 00:27:47,464 Speaker 2: you're you're more attuned to them. 614 00:27:47,384 --> 00:27:50,664 Speaker 1: You know, it's not a fallacy that everyone in Denver 615 00:27:50,784 --> 00:27:52,064 Speaker 1: smells like body odor and weed. 616 00:27:54,904 --> 00:27:59,264 Speaker 2: Yeah, indeed, you got me there. Anyway, I finally muster 617 00:27:59,344 --> 00:28:02,664 Speaker 2: the courage. I've like studied this intersection more than any 618 00:28:02,864 --> 00:28:05,224 Speaker 2: person other than the person who designed it has and 619 00:28:05,744 --> 00:28:08,304 Speaker 2: I cross I make it either side. My heart is 620 00:28:08,384 --> 00:28:08,944 Speaker 2: like in my. 621 00:28:09,664 --> 00:28:11,704 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're sweating. Your heart's beating. 622 00:28:12,104 --> 00:28:15,664 Speaker 4: That was definitely a pulse pounder moment. Yeah, but I 623 00:28:15,744 --> 00:28:16,104 Speaker 4: did it. 624 00:28:16,504 --> 00:28:18,984 Speaker 2: And then I find a bench and I'm like, oh, 625 00:28:19,224 --> 00:28:20,944 Speaker 2: this could be a bus stop because it's a bench. 626 00:28:20,984 --> 00:28:23,704 Speaker 2: And then like I I kind of like inadvertently lift 627 00:28:23,744 --> 00:28:25,304 Speaker 2: my cane up a little higher and it hits this 628 00:28:25,384 --> 00:28:27,384 Speaker 2: like very hollow sounding roof that I didn't know was there, 629 00:28:27,744 --> 00:28:30,904 Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, like bench underneath a shelter, Like, 630 00:28:30,904 --> 00:28:33,104 Speaker 2: what on earth is that in the United States other than. 631 00:28:33,064 --> 00:28:33,624 Speaker 4: A bus shelter. 632 00:28:33,944 --> 00:28:35,104 Speaker 1: How long have you been out at this point? 633 00:28:35,664 --> 00:28:38,504 Speaker 2: Not that long, probably like an hour. I've made it 634 00:28:38,544 --> 00:28:40,304 Speaker 2: like a quarter of a mile probably, and then the 635 00:28:40,304 --> 00:28:42,784 Speaker 2: bus arrives and then I'm like, here we go. One 636 00:28:42,904 --> 00:28:46,824 Speaker 2: question one person. And I asked the bus driver and 637 00:28:46,864 --> 00:28:49,904 Speaker 2: he's like, you know, in true bus driver form, it's like, oh, yeah, 638 00:28:49,984 --> 00:28:51,464 Speaker 2: just ride this bus to the end of the line 639 00:28:51,544 --> 00:28:54,304 Speaker 2: and then you'll be at like a light rail station. 640 00:28:54,464 --> 00:28:56,064 Speaker 2: And then once you get to that light rail station, 641 00:28:56,144 --> 00:28:58,424 Speaker 2: it's only like two stops to the downtown Littleton station, 642 00:28:59,344 --> 00:29:02,184 Speaker 2: and so I like, I sit there and by that 643 00:29:02,184 --> 00:29:04,184 Speaker 2: point I'm feeling very pleased with myself, Like getting on 644 00:29:04,184 --> 00:29:07,264 Speaker 2: the bus is like a major milestone. And then when 645 00:29:07,304 --> 00:29:09,064 Speaker 2: we got to the end of the line, the driver 646 00:29:09,184 --> 00:29:11,664 Speaker 2: offered to walk me to the station and like to 647 00:29:11,704 --> 00:29:13,224 Speaker 2: the to the train, but I was like, no, no, that's 648 00:29:13,224 --> 00:29:16,024 Speaker 2: that's going too far. I'm you know, I'm doing the 649 00:29:16,064 --> 00:29:18,784 Speaker 2: independent drop here like I'm good. But I did allow 650 00:29:18,864 --> 00:29:21,704 Speaker 2: him to be like, there's stairs right there, you know, 651 00:29:21,824 --> 00:29:24,064 Speaker 2: and you go up them across a bridge, and so 652 00:29:24,184 --> 00:29:26,024 Speaker 2: I made it, and that was weird. The light rail 653 00:29:26,024 --> 00:29:27,784 Speaker 2: station in sinteresting, you know, like I go up these 654 00:29:27,784 --> 00:29:29,864 Speaker 2: concrete stairs and there's like a brief moment of panic 655 00:29:29,864 --> 00:29:31,824 Speaker 2: where I was like, did I just like walk up 656 00:29:31,904 --> 00:29:34,264 Speaker 2: onto like a tiny concrete tower that I'm about to 657 00:29:34,304 --> 00:29:34,824 Speaker 2: fall off of. 658 00:29:35,104 --> 00:29:36,904 Speaker 1: It's from watching mister McGoo as a kid. 659 00:29:37,944 --> 00:29:39,144 Speaker 4: Yeah, right, yeah. 660 00:29:39,304 --> 00:29:41,744 Speaker 2: But then of course, like good old Caine, you know, 661 00:29:41,824 --> 00:29:43,784 Speaker 2: gave me evidence of what was actually going on. I 662 00:29:43,784 --> 00:29:46,464 Speaker 2: found the pedestrian bridge over the highway to the light 663 00:29:46,544 --> 00:29:48,624 Speaker 2: rail station, and by that point I had been in 664 00:29:48,664 --> 00:29:51,624 Speaker 2: like I've been in Denver light rail stations like a 665 00:29:51,664 --> 00:29:55,024 Speaker 2: dozen times or more, and they're all set laid out, 666 00:29:55,104 --> 00:29:57,064 Speaker 2: you know, roughly the same right. I've been trained how 667 00:29:57,064 --> 00:30:00,104 Speaker 2: to find where the doors open, and so like I 668 00:30:00,144 --> 00:30:02,224 Speaker 2: felt for the tactile dots, and as I was doing that, 669 00:30:02,384 --> 00:30:04,944 Speaker 2: there was somebody wearing headphones and so they didn't hear 670 00:30:04,984 --> 00:30:06,824 Speaker 2: me coming, and I scared the crap out of them 671 00:30:06,864 --> 00:30:09,304 Speaker 2: because I like passed like very close to the and 672 00:30:09,344 --> 00:30:10,744 Speaker 2: I think just like all of a sudden, they were like, oh, 673 00:30:10,784 --> 00:30:13,104 Speaker 2: there's a guy right there, which kind of cracked me up, 674 00:30:13,144 --> 00:30:14,624 Speaker 2: just because like it was funny like that I was 675 00:30:14,624 --> 00:30:16,264 Speaker 2: scaring other people instead of other people scaring me. 676 00:30:16,264 --> 00:30:17,944 Speaker 1: That thing, I must have it all the time now 677 00:30:17,944 --> 00:30:18,824 Speaker 1: that everyone's staring at. 678 00:30:18,784 --> 00:30:20,144 Speaker 4: Their phones, Oh totally. 679 00:30:20,224 --> 00:30:22,904 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really annoying also just as a pedestrian because 680 00:30:22,904 --> 00:30:24,544 Speaker 2: they're like staring at their phones as they're walking, and 681 00:30:24,584 --> 00:30:26,944 Speaker 2: then you're like you're the blind one like bumping into me, 682 00:30:27,024 --> 00:30:29,384 Speaker 2: an asshole. So then I get on there and then 683 00:30:29,424 --> 00:30:32,184 Speaker 2: I'm like feeling extremely confident because like I hear that 684 00:30:32,224 --> 00:30:33,944 Speaker 2: it's like the right train, and I've been on this 685 00:30:33,984 --> 00:30:35,464 Speaker 2: train and I know it's going and I know it's 686 00:30:35,464 --> 00:30:38,864 Speaker 2: two stops and then people start talking to me on 687 00:30:38,904 --> 00:30:39,264 Speaker 2: the train. 688 00:30:39,464 --> 00:30:41,064 Speaker 4: And when somebody starts being like. 689 00:30:41,024 --> 00:30:44,264 Speaker 2: Sir, there is a chair immediately to your left, and 690 00:30:44,304 --> 00:30:46,344 Speaker 2: I was just like, buddy, I am, and I'm like 691 00:30:46,384 --> 00:30:47,904 Speaker 2: kind of like riffing. I'm like in such a good mood. 692 00:30:47,944 --> 00:30:51,104 Speaker 2: I was just like, buddy, like I'm good standing. And 693 00:30:51,104 --> 00:30:53,424 Speaker 2: then I its like dorky, but I was like holding 694 00:30:53,424 --> 00:30:55,304 Speaker 2: onto the you know, the strap, and I was like, oh, 695 00:30:55,344 --> 00:30:57,104 Speaker 2: I'm just like one of those like I'm like a 696 00:30:57,224 --> 00:30:59,704 Speaker 2: nineteen thirties commuter. Buddy like look at me like I'm 697 00:30:59,704 --> 00:31:01,664 Speaker 2: a snowboarder, like raight, you know. And they were like, oh, 698 00:31:01,704 --> 00:31:04,344 Speaker 2: this guy's feeling his oats. But at that point, I 699 00:31:04,384 --> 00:31:06,904 Speaker 2: was just like singing in my head because I really 700 00:31:06,904 --> 00:31:08,504 Speaker 2: know where to go. And as I get closer to 701 00:31:08,544 --> 00:31:10,744 Speaker 2: the center, you know, I start to hear canes and 702 00:31:10,784 --> 00:31:13,264 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, like here we are. We're getting closer. 703 00:31:13,304 --> 00:31:16,304 Speaker 2: And then actually Charles, my travel instructor, he's out with 704 00:31:16,344 --> 00:31:18,464 Speaker 2: another student, but like he kind of comes back and 705 00:31:18,504 --> 00:31:19,624 Speaker 2: I hear him under his breath. 706 00:31:19,664 --> 00:31:21,144 Speaker 4: It's like, great job, dude, great job. 707 00:31:21,384 --> 00:31:23,544 Speaker 2: He's really proud of me and made me feel great. 708 00:31:24,344 --> 00:31:26,144 Speaker 2: And then yeah, I got back, and then there's a 709 00:31:26,184 --> 00:31:27,824 Speaker 2: tradition when you get back, you know, you check back 710 00:31:27,864 --> 00:31:29,344 Speaker 2: in and you tell the receptionist that you're there, and 711 00:31:29,344 --> 00:31:30,984 Speaker 2: then they announce it over the intercom. 712 00:31:31,224 --> 00:31:32,784 Speaker 4: You know, they're like, Andrew just got back from his 713 00:31:32,824 --> 00:31:33,664 Speaker 4: independent job. 714 00:31:33,744 --> 00:31:35,344 Speaker 2: And then I hear like, you know, all in the 715 00:31:35,344 --> 00:31:38,024 Speaker 2: Braille classroom in the kitchen, everybody's like oooh you know 716 00:31:38,864 --> 00:31:40,864 Speaker 2: what I feel like, Oh, it was. 717 00:31:40,944 --> 00:31:41,784 Speaker 4: It was incredible. 718 00:31:41,784 --> 00:31:44,824 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm like getting I'm getting the chills again 719 00:31:44,944 --> 00:31:45,784 Speaker 2: right now just telling. 720 00:31:45,624 --> 00:31:46,104 Speaker 4: You about it. 721 00:31:46,544 --> 00:31:48,824 Speaker 2: You know, the fears that I have about becoming blind, 722 00:31:48,984 --> 00:31:52,464 Speaker 2: the real like intense anxiety about like, am I just 723 00:31:52,504 --> 00:31:54,384 Speaker 2: going to be like the guy who goes into his 724 00:31:54,424 --> 00:31:56,904 Speaker 2: mom's basement and just like can't do anything anymore? When 725 00:31:56,904 --> 00:31:59,424 Speaker 2: this happens, it just undermines the hell out of that 726 00:31:59,424 --> 00:32:02,264 Speaker 2: because it's like, yeah, it's going to be hard and 727 00:32:02,344 --> 00:32:06,464 Speaker 2: exhausting and like triple l sat every day if I 728 00:32:06,504 --> 00:32:08,624 Speaker 2: am going to places I've never been, but also like 729 00:32:08,784 --> 00:32:11,704 Speaker 2: it's one hundred percent doable. If like my vision we're 730 00:32:11,744 --> 00:32:14,584 Speaker 2: going to completely go out tomorrow, it would be heinous, 731 00:32:14,664 --> 00:32:16,504 Speaker 2: and I would like accelerate all of the stuff I'm 732 00:32:16,504 --> 00:32:19,024 Speaker 2: trying to do. But also like I would continue pitching 733 00:32:19,064 --> 00:32:22,464 Speaker 2: stories for magazines, and I would continue like going to 734 00:32:22,504 --> 00:32:25,504 Speaker 2: people's weddings and like checking out new restaurants, and like, 735 00:32:25,544 --> 00:32:27,624 Speaker 2: it just gave me that confidence. So like, my life 736 00:32:27,664 --> 00:32:29,664 Speaker 2: does not have to end by any stretch with the 737 00:32:29,704 --> 00:32:30,264 Speaker 2: loss of sight. 738 00:32:31,264 --> 00:32:33,824 Speaker 1: The oddest thing might be that you seem less afraid 739 00:32:33,904 --> 00:32:35,864 Speaker 1: of going blind than you are of the elsats. 740 00:32:37,784 --> 00:32:39,504 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I really don't want to take the l 741 00:32:39,584 --> 00:32:42,624 Speaker 2: s terry times. She seems I just don't have a 742 00:32:42,704 --> 00:32:43,304 Speaker 2: legal mind. 743 00:32:43,904 --> 00:32:46,984 Speaker 1: Andrew Leland, you wrote the new book The Country of 744 00:32:47,024 --> 00:32:49,744 Speaker 1: the Blind, a memoir at the end of site, and 745 00:32:49,784 --> 00:32:53,064 Speaker 1: also this article in The New Yorker, how to be Blind. 746 00:32:53,744 --> 00:32:56,344 Speaker 1: It's the story of the week, and you've made me 747 00:32:56,384 --> 00:32:57,024 Speaker 1: a better person. 748 00:32:57,224 --> 00:33:00,224 Speaker 2: Hey, I hope that's true, Joel. Thanks, I really enjoyed 749 00:33:00,264 --> 00:33:00,744 Speaker 2: talking to you. 750 00:33:01,184 --> 00:33:05,504 Speaker 1: Me too well. I learned so much from talking to Andrew. 751 00:33:05,984 --> 00:33:11,224 Speaker 1: My main takeaway is never grab anyone by the elbow. 752 00:33:11,264 --> 00:33:14,904 Speaker 1: Does anyone ever enjoy that? I mean, even if you're 753 00:33:14,944 --> 00:33:18,304 Speaker 1: paying at Dominatrix, if she grabs you by the elbow, 754 00:33:18,704 --> 00:33:21,104 Speaker 1: you're not coming back for a second session. I mean, 755 00:33:21,504 --> 00:33:23,824 Speaker 1: you can yank someone by the hair, but don't touch 756 00:33:23,824 --> 00:33:27,064 Speaker 1: their elbows like you're some kind of schoolmaster in Little 757 00:33:27,064 --> 00:33:32,424 Speaker 1: House on the Prairie. Leave people a little dignity. 758 00:33:33,264 --> 00:33:36,464 Speaker 3: At the end of the show, what's next for joel Stein? 759 00:33:36,664 --> 00:33:40,104 Speaker 3: Maybe you'll take a napper bok around online. 760 00:33:40,624 --> 00:33:44,664 Speaker 1: Our show today was produced by Kate mccauliffe and Nishavenko. 761 00:33:44,864 --> 00:33:48,104 Speaker 1: It was edited by Lydia Jan Kott. Our engineer is 762 00:33:48,344 --> 00:33:53,304 Speaker 1: Amanda kay Wang and our executive producer is Catherine Shira Dahl. 763 00:33:53,904 --> 00:33:56,544 Speaker 1: And our theme song was written and performed by Jonathan 764 00:33:56,584 --> 00:33:59,584 Speaker 1: Colton and a special thanks to my voice coach Vicky 765 00:33:59,664 --> 00:34:03,584 Speaker 1: Merrick and my consulting producer Laurence Alasnik. To find more 766 00:34:03,584 --> 00:34:08,344 Speaker 1: Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 767 00:34:08,344 --> 00:34:11,984 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'm Joel Stein, and 768 00:34:12,024 --> 00:34:15,904 Speaker 1: this is the story of the week. Who are the 769 00:34:15,984 --> 00:34:17,784 Speaker 1: attractive Like? Who are the blind? 770 00:34:17,864 --> 00:34:20,384 Speaker 4: Sex symbols in pop culture? 771 00:34:20,864 --> 00:34:21,544 Speaker 1: Yeah? 772 00:34:21,904 --> 00:34:22,784 Speaker 4: I mean probably me. 773 00:34:22,944 --> 00:34:25,184 Speaker 1: I would say, I think I think you're up there. 774 00:34:25,344 --> 00:34:26,944 Speaker 1: Maybe Mary from Little House in the. 775 00:34:26,944 --> 00:34:30,464 Speaker 2: Prairie All right now, isn't she like eleven? 776 00:34:30,824 --> 00:34:30,904 Speaker 4: Not? 777 00:34:30,984 --> 00:34:31,824 Speaker 1: By the end of the show,