WEBVTT - Ep 304: The Racial Wealth Gap ft. Kimberly Atkins Stohr 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:08.640 Hey, hey, ba fam, I have got some really freaking 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:12.920 incredible news. We have been nominated for a Webby, y'all. 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:15.760 The Webby is the oscars of the Internet. And the 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:18.480 fact that Brown Ambition has been recognized with a nomination 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:23.040 for Best Business Podcast this is incredible. The most incredible 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:25.319 thing of all about being nominated for a Webby is 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:27.800 that you, guys can help decide who wins. That means 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:31.480 you can vote for us. Go to Webby Awards dot com. 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:36.280 That's we b b y a wa r ds dot com, 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:40.839 find the Best Business Podcast Award nominees and vote for 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:44.519 Brown Ambition. You can also check the show notes. We'll 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:46.239 put a link to where you can vote there for 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:48.680 easy voting. But tell a friend to tell a friend. 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:51.360 If we take home this award, it's going to be 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.080 so symbolic of all the hard work we put into 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.600 this show and of how incredible our BA family is. 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:01.240 So go vote for us. Voting is open now through 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:04.240 April twenty first. Thank y'all so much for your support. 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.480 Thank you the Webby Awards for nominating us. Now let's 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:11.360 take this on or home, y'all. Hey, hey, ba fam, 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:14.120 it's Mandy and I am back with another episode of 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.080 Brown Ambition. I am so excited to introduce you guys 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.440 to today's guest. Her name is Kimberly Atkins Store. She's 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:23.800 a senior opinion writer and columnist for The Boston Globe. 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:27.240 She is the inaugural columnist for The Emancipator, which is 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:32.039 a joint independent, anti racist multimedia project from Globe Opinion 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:36.039 and the Boston University Center for Anti Racist Research, which 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:37.800 I am so glad that that is even a thing 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:41.600 that exists, and the author of the Emancipator's new newsletter 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:45.520 called Unbound. Now, Kimberly is one of my most illustrious 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:48.800 guests yet, y'all, so I'm going to continue with her bio. 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:52.480 She's also an MSNBC contributor and co host. She's our 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:56.920 podcast sister co host of the Politicon podcast called Hashtag 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:01.520 Sisters in Law. Previously, Kimberly was the first Washington, DC 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:06.400 based news correspondent for wbbur So for my NPR Public 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:10.200 Radio fanatics, we love that. She's also served as the 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:14.520 Boston heralds Washington Bureau, chief guest host of c SPAN's 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:19.200 Morning Collins Shows, Washington Journal, and a Supreme Court reporter 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:22.959 for Massachusetts Lawyer Weekly. So you have a background in 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:26.440 journalism and law in all these different facets. I love 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:30.200 a multifaceted woman and I cannot wait to get into 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:34.480 my conversation. So, without further ado, welcome Kimberly. Thank you 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:36.160 so much for joining Brown Ambition. 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.360 Thank you for having me, Mandy. I'm excited to be here. 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:42.359 So tell me about the Emancipator. It hasn't launched yet. 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:43.920 We're kind of a little bit ahead of the curve 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:46.760 breaking news for y'all. If you haven't heard of the Emancipator, 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:50.840 what can you tell the audience about this incredible new 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:54.200 publication and why you decided to be a part of it. Yes, 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:59.680 So this sprung out of a conversation with Bina Venka Traman, 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:03.760 who was at the time the editorial page editor at 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:07.080 the Boston Globe, and doctor Ebram Kendy as he was 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:10.600 just getting started and ramping up US Center for Anti 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:15.320 Racist Research, and they had an online zoom chat and 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:20.520 after that they connected. They started talking about abolitionist newspapers 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:24.320 at the time, before and during and after the Civil War, 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:30.280 and these newspapers didn't just call for the emancipation of 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:34.880 the enslaved population of people in America. They had a 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:37.920 broader vision, you know. They thought about what it would 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:41.760 look like, what it would take to make black people 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:49.320 who had been enslaved full and participating citizens in American society. 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:52.400 How to get them educated, what they could do, how 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.960 they could start businesses, how they can run for office, 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:58.520 how they you know, not just vote, but run for office. 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.240 How they can be a full, integrated part of society 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:04.960 as a whole. What citizenship really meant. They got the 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:10.120 idea to take that tradition and create a new platform 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:14.560 to take that same approach and looking at anti racist 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:19.200 solutions to the issues we have here and now today, 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:22.799 not just rehashing problems or talking about them, but thinking 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.800 out of the box, thinking about some solutions to the 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:28.760 racism that's built into all sorts of systems, not just 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:32.080 criminal justice. This grew, like a lot of things, out 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:35.320 of the wake of the lynching of George Floyd, but 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:40.280 beyond that, in all sorts of areas, and that's where 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:43.000 this project was born. Being it brought me on board 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:47.000 early on, I was very eager to do so. Since then, 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:51.600 we have co editors in chief Deborah Douglas and Amber Payne, 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.640 who have been steering this project to its launch and 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:56.919 it will launch them very excited to say it's launching 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:01.760 very soon. It's launching this month after a lot, a 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:06.240 lot of hard work and anticipation. So I'm really excited 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:06.680 about it. 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:09.560 Yeah, congratulations. Amber and I go way way back. I 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.720 can't remember. I feel like black women in journalism in 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:14.400 New York, like you know, you just find your way 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:17.000 to one another. I'm so glad that you being in Boston. 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:19.120 I'm getting to get to know you now. But Amber 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:20.880 and I go but way back when she was the 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:25.120 first editor in chief of NBC Black, their Black culture 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:29.000 sort of publication. And I think when I had just 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:31.440 started Mandy Money. I had just launched my sort of 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:35.320 independent business, venturing out into my own this past summer, 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:37.279 and Amber and I reconnected and she had told me 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:39.680 she had just joined the Emancipator, and I was so 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:42.160 excited for her, and then so for her a few 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.480 months later, or feels like, I don't know who knows 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:47.080 what it was sometime last year, but more recently she 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:48.680 reached out and she's like, Mandy, we're going to be 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:51.120 launching soon, and she invited me to write a piece 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:54.200 for the Emancipator as well, which I was so excited 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:56.719 to do. And I mean it's not every day that 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:58.880 you get people who are like, hey, can you write 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:02.520 about inclusive racism in the workplace and the experience of 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:05.640 women of color, which that's all I love talking about 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:08.880 all day air day here on Brown Ambition. So I'm 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:12.640 honored and excited to just be a teeny tiny little 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:16.680 piece of the launch of the Emancipator. Talk to me 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:19.640 a little bit about your approach to like, there's not 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:22.240 a ton I mean, I don't have any stats on this, 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:24.719 but if I had to hazard a guests, there aren't 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:27.719 very many opinion writers from women of color. You don't 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:30.240 see that often in like mainstream publications. 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:31.000 It must. 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:33.760 I don't know if you feel a particular you know, 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:36.680 first only different sort of pressure when it comes to 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:40.200 your approach as an opinion writer. But can you talk 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:43.440 a little bit about your experience and how you got 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:45.640 to a place where you're like, Okay, I'm a black woman. 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:48.360 I'm actually going to write about issues that are important 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:51.080 to us and say it with my full chest. Like 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.159 you've written about the Crown Act, about Katanji Brown Jackson, 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:56.080 you know these issues that really affect us. 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:59.880 Yes, you know, it's interesting. When I met being A, 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.160 when she hired me to be a part of Globe Opinion, 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:06.200 I had never been on the opinion side of a 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:10.480 news publication. I had mostly had entirely been on the 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:13.880 news side, writing news, writing analyzes of the news, but 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:19.000 still in that grounded fairness based and that I'm the 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:21.680 things I write now aren't fair, but this idea that 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:23.920 when you're on the news side of a publication, it's 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:25.840 not about what you think, it's not about you, it's 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:28.960 about what you're covering. Whereas on the opinion side you 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:31.880 bring your full self to bear. It's still journalism, it's 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:34.840 still deeply reported. You still have to show your work, 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:37.240 but you bring all parts of view to bear. And 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.160 for me, of course, that includes being a black woman 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:43.440 in America. Not everything that I write comes from a 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:48.920 particular that particular part of my perspective. I find it. 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:51.520 I'm very grateful that the Boston Globe gives me the 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:54.920 idea that gives me the ability to write not only 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:58.040 about things that are really important to me, really important 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:00.600 to the black community, but also write about out you know, 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:03.680 the Russia invasion, also be able to bring to bear 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:07.760 my experience covering foreign policy and the law and everything else. 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:10.200 Sometimes I feel like I can get pigeonholed, like I'm 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:12.960 always the you know, the black commentator on a panel 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.520 or something like that. Or you can feel when you're 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.400 a part of a discussion and you sense that you 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:23.840 were added because whoever was moderating it realized at the 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:25.640 last minute that it's a panel of white men, and 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:28.360 it's like, oh, that's we need somebody call him. That's 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:30.240 great that they're doing that, that they're trying to be 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:32.480 more inclusive, but it should be more organic than that. 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:35.960 And I feel like that can sometimes make you the 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:39.400 spokesperson for black America, which I don't enjoy being because 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.320 I'm not. But I also think it is important to 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:44.920 have more people of color at the table in all 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:47.839 of these discussions, more women at the table in all 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:52.800 these discussions. Any discussion that affects US in America affects 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:57.600 all Americans should have representation of America in that discussion. 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:00.360 So in that sense, I'm very grateful for this job. 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:02.160 It is great to be able to write about things 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:04.400 that people may not think about them. I think the 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:08.080 Crown Act was an example of that, which is piece 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:13.400 of legislation that passed the House that prohibits employment discrimination 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:19.839 based on one's natural hairstyle, and that really impacts black 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.880 and brown women and men in a very specific way, 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:26.960 because we have long been taught, I know, I've heard 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:30.160 this that the natural texture of our hair is unprofessional, 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:33.880 you know, or it's a hazard, it's a risk somehow. Yes, 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:38.840 we all remember the video of Andrew Johnson, that high 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:42.400 school wrestler who was on the sidelines and had someone 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:46.320 cut off his locks because they violated a rule. I 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:50.040 remember seeing that and crying. But I would see other 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:52.200 people who I knew and respected on Twitter saying, this 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:53.840 isn't a big deal, Like why are we even talking 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:57.520 about this. They just did not have that understanding about 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:01.000 how that is a form of racism and that impacts people. 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:03.520 And so being able to talk about that and educate 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:07.320 people in a real, genuine way is really important to me, 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:08.280 and I'm grateful for that. 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.360 Yeah. Absolutely. I mean you talk about having made the 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:14.360 decision to go natural ten years ago. I made a 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:16.520 similar decision. I don't know how many years ago, but 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:18.600 I was so broke when I moved to New York 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:21.520 from Georgia that I literally could not afford the creamy crack. 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:23.560 It was too expensive for me here in New York. 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:26.680 And I would go longer and longer in between sessions. 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:28.600 And then I started to see my curls and I 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:31.040 was like, these look pretty cool. What if I just 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:33.800 kept growing it out? And at the time, I thought, oh, 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:37.679 I'm going to save so much money. That's a joke. 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:42.800 Correct the number of products it takes, Babe, y'all have 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:46.959 no idea the financial commitment to natural hair care of 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:50.040 But anyway, I digress. I was talking to another reporter 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:54.040 at SENN about a story and they off handedly asked, 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:56.400 you know, have you ever had any issues with your 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:59.360 hair going through because my backgrounds and journalism, And I 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:01.640 was like, no, not really. But then you know how 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:03.400 you go through something and you just kind of like 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:05.560 bury it, I guess in a way, or you just 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:07.360 try to Like I mean, it's what so many of 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:09.800 us do. You just you don't clock it at the time. 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:12.520 You're just like, oh, okay, that happened. And I had 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.040 this just this memory come back to me, come rushing 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:17.640 back from when I was at I was a writer 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:21.400 and sometimes on air at Yahoo Finance early in my 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.800 journalism career, and they had a man, a white man, 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.600 come in as an image consultant. And it was during 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:31.119 this period of transition. And I imagine if you were transitioning, 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:33.400 you know, when you have natural hair, it is a 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.080 whole journey in and of that self. That transition is painful, 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:39.920 it's janky. You don't feel good about. At least I'll 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.080 speak for myself, it was very hard to be in 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.400 that in between stage, you know, throw it up in 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:47.760 a bun and try to smooth down the curls and whatever. 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:51.079 And he was looking at footage of me from earlier 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:54.360 in my career at Yahoo, and I was straight, you know, 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:58.120 pin straight, relaxed. I'm not even wearing glasses. I was like, 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:00.440 very much what I thought the image to be. And 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:02.719 I was in the middle of this process of transitioning. 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:04.920 And he looked at me and was like, is that 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:08.440 you like clearly? You know, He's like, that doesn't look 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:10.240 like you. You don't look like that anymore. That's a 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:15.280 great look. And and meanwhile, this guy looked like he 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:17.560 spent many years living in his mom's basement. I do 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:22.000 not know how this man became I don't even remember 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:23.600 his name. I'm just gonna call him Jeff. It's all 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:25.720 I can think of. How did he get the job 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.520 of a pinion of image consultant? How did he get 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:31.120 permission to make me feel so shitty about the way, 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.840 you know? And that's just like I don't want that 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:35.559 for any other black women to go through. Do you 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:37.480 feel like things have gotten better? I mean, you're on 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:40.280 TV now, You're not just frightening. Do you feel like 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:42.360 it's been getting better for us? 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:45.480 I feel like there has been progress, But like in 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:48.480 many areas, there is much progress to go, just by 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:51.520 way of the fact that people didn't even realize. People 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.400 outside of our communities didn't realize that this was even 0:12:54.440 --> 0:13:00.679 a thing. One reason why I have even after I 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:03.559 chose to go natural, sometimes i'd do a blowout or something. 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:05.880 I figure, you know, I can do my looks as 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:09.280 I please. But once I started doing television, I made 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:11.640 a conscious decision that I would never blow out or 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:15.280 straighten my hair on TV because I thought especially and 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:17.880 this really started when I was on guest hosting the 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:20.600 c SPAN Morning call in show. You get collars from 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:22.960 all over the country, all over the world, and like 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.480 it's important that the people in Nebraska see what my 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:30.160 hair looks like. It's important for the people in Boise, Idoh, 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:35.720 every place to see what natural hair looks like in 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:39.240 their living rooms as they're having their coffee, so that 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:44.040 this can stop, so that this idea that that's not 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:49.040 acceptable in media, in news, it's okay. I'm When I 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:52.439 was in a journalism school, there were still people telling, 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.320 you know, black women, you need to relax your hair, 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:57.320 You need to have a look that is acceptable for 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:00.000 TV news, you need to be accepted in people's living room, 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:03.280 and that essentially meant doing everything you can to adhere 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:08.520 to a Eurocentric beauty standard, and that's really appalling. In 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:12.600 so many spaces, we are forced to assimilate and adhere 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:16.160 to a standard created by someone else for someone else, 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.440 and we're the ones who are asked to change ourselves 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.160 as opposed to the other way around, other people learning 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:23.840 to accept us. And I didn't want to be a 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:25.840 part of that, so that was important to me. I 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:28.360 think now you see a lot more people wearing their 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:33.400 hair natural, being themselves, clothing that it fits us better 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:35.720 because our bodies can be different. I mean, so many 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.880 things are beginning to change. I still think there's a 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:39.280 way to go. 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.560 I thought about often, how because I was a senior 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:45.400 director at my company. Yes, sure I wasn't the CEO 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:47.360 or anything like that, but I was able to set 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:51.720 a tone and the level of is acceptability the right word, 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.240 but I felt like anyone who joined my team, and 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:58.240 my team was like nearly half bipock. Intentionally on my part, 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:00.240 I was like, I'm going to be the quiet leper 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:02.080 sell that's going to be hiring these black and brown 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:03.520 people and they're not going to know I'm doing it, 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:07.160 and I'm gonna do it that because I was representing 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:10.120 and I was there my natural hair, that at least 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.240 the signal would be sent that this is okay. I'm 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:14.000 going to make it okay. And that's why I feel 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:19.840 like so passionate and dedicated to more women of color 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:24.720 in positions of power, putting yourself out there and all 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:26.720 of that. And I don't even know where I'm going 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:29.920 with this, but just to say thank you, it does matter. 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:33.040 And I tell you right now, when I drop myself 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.000 off at his daycare, which is mostly white, because this 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:37.320 is like I'm in the burbs now, the number of 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:39.440 little boys and girls who come out and stare at 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:43.120 my hair and point at it. You really like, as 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:45.360 I'm like one of the only black moms. I think 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:48.160 I saw a black mom last week. I'm not kidding. 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:50.200 I feel like a zoo animal sometimes. 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:52.600 Once somebody touched my hair on the subway and I 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:56.720 was just tripping, you know, like it it's like, this 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:58.760 is not a petting zoo, Like what are you doing? 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.680 Too short to touch it? But I can. But they're kids, 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:07.480 you know, too short. But I make sure I smile 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:10.440 big and I say hello, and I'm like, yep, this 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:14.600 is what moms look like too. But you never it 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:17.080 it really is. I mean, I don't, and it sucks 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:20.480 because you know, you think I may be the only 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:22.720 black woman they've seen today, you know what I mean. 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.240 And it's not okay, But that's where we live in 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:29.280 Okay the a fan. I'll be right back with more 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:33.560 of my conversation with Kimberly Atkinstore from the Boston Globe. 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:36.080 All right, Va Fan, I am back, So let's jump 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:39.120 back into my conversation with Kimberly Atkins Store from the 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.760 Boston Globe. So you write about a lot of what 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:44.040 you write about is and you also your podcast I'm 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:46.720 going to talk about that is the intersection of law 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:50.920 and the news and politics, am I correct? So what is? 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:51.040 So? 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:54.160 What excites you about that space? Because I know a 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:56.800 lot of people having come through this election, especially black women, 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:00.680 are just like tired. But what what drives and motivates 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:02.320 you to cover this area? Yeah? 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:05.159 I mean I was tired too, but that sort of 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:09.160 reinforces the importance of all of this, right, I mean, 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:11.760 so I was a lawyer. I was a lawyer before 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:13.639 I was a journalist, what kind of I mean. I 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.000 wrote for my college newspaper and stuff, and I really 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:18.480 loved journalism in college. I majored in journalism in college. 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:20.000 But I knew I was going to law school, and 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:23.159 I practiced law for a while, and I realized that 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:26.080 it was not for me for a lot of reasons. 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:28.240 I just think that was not you know, sometimes you 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.040 were in a career and you realize that that wasn't 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.200 the right choice for you and that there are other options. 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:34.320 And I was still in my twenties. I thought it 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:36.600 was a good idea for me to explore other options 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:39.879 before committing to something that might make me unhappy in 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:43.920 the long term. It was not specifically race issues that 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.320 chased me away from practicing law, even though I was 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:51.320 a civil litigation attorney in Boston in which I could 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:56.840 go weeks without seeing another black person in the legal space. 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:00.280 I worked for a wonderful employer, but I would go 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.320 to court to argue a case and sometimes be directed 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:05.080 to the criminal division or asked if I'm represented by counsel, 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:07.399 or asked if I was a criminal defendant. But that 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:09.639 wasn't the main reason I stopped. I just knew that 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:13.840 wasn't my bliss, even though I thought the law was interesting. 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:16.960 And so my journalism career, as you said, actually ended 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:19.560 up steering me toward a job covering the US Supreme 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:23.280 Court for the Lawyer's weekly papers. And I loved that. 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:27.120 I loved being on that side, the journalism side, covering 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:30.600 these cases and why they were so important and explaining 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:32.480 that to people. And I was pretty good at doing 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:36.639 that as well. And then as I transitioned away from that, 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:41.119 I got into politics. I never intended to cover politics. 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.119 I was actually afraid of it, and I had an 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:45.159 editor when I was at the Boston Herald that said, ah, 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:46.719 I think you'd be good at that. Go you know, 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:48.960 go to the State House and cover it Romney and 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:52.600 I was like, do what now? So I did that 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:54.600 and I really loved it. It was a lot of fun, 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:56.960 and I've since then been able to sort of keep 0:18:57.320 --> 0:18:59.560 a hand in both of those places, as well as 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:03.280 covering other national news as well. But that intersection is 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:08.480 really important in understanding how laws are made, what they cover, 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:10.639 what they impact. I mean, take the Crown Act. We 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:15.600 already have a law that prohibits discrimination in workplaces, so 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:21.280 technically it should already it is already illegal for employers 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:24.720 to discriminate against people and not promote them or demote 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.000 them or not hire them because of their hair texture. 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:31.560 But because people are unaware of that, and because an 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:33.439 employer can just say well, we have the right to 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:36.760 set standards, you know, dress codes, hair codes, whatever we 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:39.479 want to do, and judges will say, hey, I think 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:43.399 that's right. You need an additional law in the Ground 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:47.800 Act to say no, no, it includes this. That's how 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.160 the legal system works, and explaining to people exactly why 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:53.399 that is when they would say, well, why is that 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:56.840 isn't already illegal? Well it is, but sometimes you need 0:19:56.920 --> 0:19:59.639 that extra bit of help. The same way with it 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:06.480 wasn't the Emancipation Proclamation that required the end of enslaving people. 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:08.960 It took an amendment to the Constitution, and then it 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:13.119 took states to actually adhere by that amendment to the Constitution. 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:15.520 It took much longer and much more, and you need 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.879 people explaining that process and what happens in those early 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:24.760 emancipation abolitionist newspapers like the First Emancipator, like The Liberator 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:26.560 and others. You could I have been going back and 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:28.800 reading them as part of this project, and you actually 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:32.680 see people like William Lord Garrison writing, you know, what 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:35.439 Lincoln did is all is nice, but that's not going 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:38.760 to change anything unless all these other things are done. 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:41.679 And they understood that. And so that's the kind of 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:44.919 the kind of approach that we're taking with the Emancipator. 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:47.879 And having that legal background and having the understanding of 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:51.679 the political realities is super valuable to be able to 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:52.680 help bring that to bear. 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:55.280 Yeah, I mean, I think as excited as I was 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:57.760 for the possibility of the Crown Act passing, I mean, 0:20:57.800 --> 0:20:59.320 it's gone through the House now, it hasn't been through 0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:00.000 the Senate yet. 0:20:59.880 --> 0:21:02.480