1 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 1: Hey, hey, ba fam, I have got some really freaking 2 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: incredible news. We have been nominated for a Webby, y'all. 3 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: The Webby is the oscars of the Internet. And the 4 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: fact that Brown Ambition has been recognized with a nomination 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: for Best Business Podcast this is incredible. The most incredible 6 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,319 Speaker 1: thing of all about being nominated for a Webby is 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: that you, guys can help decide who wins. That means 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: you can vote for us. Go to Webby Awards dot com. 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: That's we b b y a wa r ds dot com, 10 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: find the Best Business Podcast Award nominees and vote for 11 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: Brown Ambition. You can also check the show notes. We'll 12 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: put a link to where you can vote there for 13 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: easy voting. But tell a friend to tell a friend. 14 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: If we take home this award, it's going to be 15 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: so symbolic of all the hard work we put into 16 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: this show and of how incredible our BA family is. 17 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: So go vote for us. Voting is open now through 18 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: April twenty first. Thank y'all so much for your support. 19 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: Thank you the Webby Awards for nominating us. Now let's 20 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: take this on or home, y'all. Hey, hey, ba fam, 21 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: it's Mandy and I am back with another episode of 22 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: Brown Ambition. I am so excited to introduce you guys 23 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: to today's guest. Her name is Kimberly Atkins Store. She's 24 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: a senior opinion writer and columnist for The Boston Globe. 25 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: She is the inaugural columnist for The Emancipator, which is 26 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: a joint independent, anti racist multimedia project from Globe Opinion 27 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: and the Boston University Center for Anti Racist Research, which 28 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: I am so glad that that is even a thing 29 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: that exists, and the author of the Emancipator's new newsletter 30 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: called Unbound. Now, Kimberly is one of my most illustrious 31 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: guests yet, y'all, so I'm going to continue with her bio. 32 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: She's also an MSNBC contributor and co host. She's our 33 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: podcast sister co host of the Politicon podcast called Hashtag 34 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: Sisters in Law. Previously, Kimberly was the first Washington, DC 35 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: based news correspondent for wbbur So for my NPR Public 36 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: Radio fanatics, we love that. She's also served as the 37 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: Boston heralds Washington Bureau, chief guest host of c SPAN's 38 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: Morning Collins Shows, Washington Journal, and a Supreme Court reporter 39 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 1: for Massachusetts Lawyer Weekly. So you have a background in 40 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: journalism and law in all these different facets. I love 41 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: a multifaceted woman and I cannot wait to get into 42 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: my conversation. So, without further ado, welcome Kimberly. Thank you 43 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: so much for joining Brown Ambition. 44 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, Mandy. I'm excited to be here. 45 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 2: So tell me about the Emancipator. It hasn't launched yet. 46 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 2: We're kind of a little bit ahead of the curve 47 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: breaking news for y'all. If you haven't heard of the Emancipator, 48 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 2: what can you tell the audience about this incredible new 49 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 2: publication and why you decided to be a part of it. Yes, 50 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: So this sprung out of a conversation with Bina Venka Traman, 51 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: who was at the time the editorial page editor at 52 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 2: the Boston Globe, and doctor Ebram Kendy as he was 53 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: just getting started and ramping up US Center for Anti 54 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: Racist Research, and they had an online zoom chat and 55 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 2: after that they connected. They started talking about abolitionist newspapers 56 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 2: at the time, before and during and after the Civil War, 57 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 2: and these newspapers didn't just call for the emancipation of 58 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: the enslaved population of people in America. They had a 59 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 2: broader vision, you know. They thought about what it would 60 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 2: look like, what it would take to make black people 61 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 2: who had been enslaved full and participating citizens in American society. 62 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 2: How to get them educated, what they could do, how 63 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 2: they could start businesses, how they can run for office, 64 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 2: how they you know, not just vote, but run for office. 65 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 2: How they can be a full, integrated part of society 66 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: as a whole. What citizenship really meant. They got the 67 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 2: idea to take that tradition and create a new platform 68 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 2: to take that same approach and looking at anti racist 69 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 2: solutions to the issues we have here and now today, 70 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,799 Speaker 2: not just rehashing problems or talking about them, but thinking 71 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 2: out of the box, thinking about some solutions to the 72 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: racism that's built into all sorts of systems, not just 73 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: criminal justice. This grew, like a lot of things, out 74 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 2: of the wake of the lynching of George Floyd, but 75 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 2: beyond that, in all sorts of areas, and that's where 76 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 2: this project was born. Being it brought me on board 77 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 2: early on, I was very eager to do so. Since then, 78 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 2: we have co editors in chief Deborah Douglas and Amber Payne, 79 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 2: who have been steering this project to its launch and 80 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 2: it will launch them very excited to say it's launching 81 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 2: very soon. It's launching this month after a lot, a 82 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: lot of hard work and anticipation. So I'm really excited 83 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 2: about it. 84 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, congratulations. Amber and I go way way back. I 85 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 1: can't remember. I feel like black women in journalism in 86 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: New York, like you know, you just find your way 87 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: to one another. I'm so glad that you being in Boston. 88 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: I'm getting to get to know you now. But Amber 89 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: and I go but way back when she was the 90 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: first editor in chief of NBC Black, their Black culture 91 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: sort of publication. And I think when I had just 92 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: started Mandy Money. I had just launched my sort of 93 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: independent business, venturing out into my own this past summer, 94 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 1: and Amber and I reconnected and she had told me 95 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: she had just joined the Emancipator, and I was so 96 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: excited for her, and then so for her a few 97 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: months later, or feels like, I don't know who knows 98 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: what it was sometime last year, but more recently she 99 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: reached out and she's like, Mandy, we're going to be 100 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: launching soon, and she invited me to write a piece 101 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: for the Emancipator as well, which I was so excited 102 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: to do. And I mean it's not every day that 103 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: you get people who are like, hey, can you write 104 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: about inclusive racism in the workplace and the experience of 105 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: women of color, which that's all I love talking about 106 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: all day air day here on Brown Ambition. So I'm 107 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: honored and excited to just be a teeny tiny little 108 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: piece of the launch of the Emancipator. Talk to me 109 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: a little bit about your approach to like, there's not 110 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: a ton I mean, I don't have any stats on this, 111 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: but if I had to hazard a guests, there aren't 112 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: very many opinion writers from women of color. You don't 113 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: see that often in like mainstream publications. 114 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 2: It must. 115 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: I don't know if you feel a particular you know, 116 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: first only different sort of pressure when it comes to 117 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: your approach as an opinion writer. But can you talk 118 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: a little bit about your experience and how you got 119 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: to a place where you're like, Okay, I'm a black woman. 120 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: I'm actually going to write about issues that are important 121 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: to us and say it with my full chest. Like 122 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: you've written about the Crown Act, about Katanji Brown Jackson, 123 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: you know these issues that really affect us. 124 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 2: Yes, you know, it's interesting. When I met being A, 125 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 2: when she hired me to be a part of Globe Opinion, 126 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 2: I had never been on the opinion side of a 127 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 2: news publication. I had mostly had entirely been on the 128 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 2: news side, writing news, writing analyzes of the news, but 129 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 2: still in that grounded fairness based and that I'm the 130 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 2: things I write now aren't fair, but this idea that 131 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 2: when you're on the news side of a publication, it's 132 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: not about what you think, it's not about you, it's 133 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 2: about what you're covering. Whereas on the opinion side you 134 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 2: bring your full self to bear. It's still journalism, it's 135 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 2: still deeply reported. You still have to show your work, 136 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 2: but you bring all parts of view to bear. And 137 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 2: for me, of course, that includes being a black woman 138 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 2: in America. Not everything that I write comes from a 139 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 2: particular that particular part of my perspective. I find it. 140 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 2: I'm very grateful that the Boston Globe gives me the 141 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: idea that gives me the ability to write not only 142 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: about things that are really important to me, really important 143 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 2: to the black community, but also write about out you know, 144 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 2: the Russia invasion, also be able to bring to bear 145 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 2: my experience covering foreign policy and the law and everything else. 146 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 2: Sometimes I feel like I can get pigeonholed, like I'm 147 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 2: always the you know, the black commentator on a panel 148 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 2: or something like that. Or you can feel when you're 149 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 2: a part of a discussion and you sense that you 150 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: were added because whoever was moderating it realized at the 151 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: last minute that it's a panel of white men, and 152 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: it's like, oh, that's we need somebody call him. That's 153 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 2: great that they're doing that, that they're trying to be 154 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 2: more inclusive, but it should be more organic than that. 155 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 2: And I feel like that can sometimes make you the 156 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: spokesperson for black America, which I don't enjoy being because 157 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 2: I'm not. But I also think it is important to 158 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: have more people of color at the table in all 159 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 2: of these discussions, more women at the table in all 160 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 2: these discussions. Any discussion that affects US in America affects 161 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 2: all Americans should have representation of America in that discussion. 162 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 2: So in that sense, I'm very grateful for this job. 163 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 2: It is great to be able to write about things 164 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 2: that people may not think about them. I think the 165 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 2: Crown Act was an example of that, which is piece 166 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 2: of legislation that passed the House that prohibits employment discrimination 167 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 2: based on one's natural hairstyle, and that really impacts black 168 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 2: and brown women and men in a very specific way, 169 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 2: because we have long been taught, I know, I've heard 170 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: this that the natural texture of our hair is unprofessional, 171 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 2: you know, or it's a hazard, it's a risk somehow. Yes, 172 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 2: we all remember the video of Andrew Johnson, that high 173 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 2: school wrestler who was on the sidelines and had someone 174 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 2: cut off his locks because they violated a rule. I 175 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 2: remember seeing that and crying. But I would see other 176 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 2: people who I knew and respected on Twitter saying, this 177 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 2: isn't a big deal, Like why are we even talking 178 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 2: about this. They just did not have that understanding about 179 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: how that is a form of racism and that impacts people. 180 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 2: And so being able to talk about that and educate 181 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 2: people in a real, genuine way is really important to me, 182 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: and I'm grateful for that. 183 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean you talk about having made the 184 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: decision to go natural ten years ago. I made a 185 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: similar decision. I don't know how many years ago, but 186 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: I was so broke when I moved to New York 187 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: from Georgia that I literally could not afford the creamy crack. 188 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: It was too expensive for me here in New York. 189 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: And I would go longer and longer in between sessions. 190 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: And then I started to see my curls and I 191 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: was like, these look pretty cool. What if I just 192 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: kept growing it out? And at the time, I thought, oh, 193 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: I'm going to save so much money. That's a joke. 194 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: Correct the number of products it takes, Babe, y'all have 195 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 1: no idea the financial commitment to natural hair care of 196 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: But anyway, I digress. I was talking to another reporter 197 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: at SENN about a story and they off handedly asked, 198 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: you know, have you ever had any issues with your 199 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: hair going through because my backgrounds and journalism, And I 200 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: was like, no, not really. But then you know how 201 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: you go through something and you just kind of like 202 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: bury it, I guess in a way, or you just 203 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: try to Like I mean, it's what so many of 204 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: us do. You just you don't clock it at the time. 205 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: You're just like, oh, okay, that happened. And I had 206 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: this just this memory come back to me, come rushing 207 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: back from when I was at I was a writer 208 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: and sometimes on air at Yahoo Finance early in my 209 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: journalism career, and they had a man, a white man, 210 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: come in as an image consultant. And it was during 211 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,119 Speaker 1: this period of transition. And I imagine if you were transitioning, 212 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: you know, when you have natural hair, it is a 213 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: whole journey in and of that self. That transition is painful, 214 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: it's janky. You don't feel good about. At least I'll 215 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: speak for myself, it was very hard to be in 216 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: that in between stage, you know, throw it up in 217 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: a bun and try to smooth down the curls and whatever. 218 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 1: And he was looking at footage of me from earlier 219 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: in my career at Yahoo, and I was straight, you know, 220 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: pin straight, relaxed. I'm not even wearing glasses. I was like, 221 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: very much what I thought the image to be. And 222 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,719 Speaker 1: I was in the middle of this process of transitioning. 223 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: And he looked at me and was like, is that 224 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: you like clearly? You know, He's like, that doesn't look 225 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: like you. You don't look like that anymore. That's a 226 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: great look. And and meanwhile, this guy looked like he 227 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: spent many years living in his mom's basement. I do 228 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: not know how this man became I don't even remember 229 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: his name. I'm just gonna call him Jeff. It's all 230 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: I can think of. How did he get the job 231 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: of a pinion of image consultant? How did he get 232 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: permission to make me feel so shitty about the way, 233 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: you know? And that's just like I don't want that 234 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 1: for any other black women to go through. Do you 235 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: feel like things have gotten better? I mean, you're on 236 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: TV now, You're not just frightening. Do you feel like 237 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: it's been getting better for us? 238 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 2: I feel like there has been progress, But like in 239 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 2: many areas, there is much progress to go, just by 240 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 2: way of the fact that people didn't even realize. People 241 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 2: outside of our communities didn't realize that this was even 242 00:12:54,440 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 2: a thing. One reason why I have even after I 243 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 2: chose to go natural, sometimes i'd do a blowout or something. 244 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 2: I figure, you know, I can do my looks as 245 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 2: I please. But once I started doing television, I made 246 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 2: a conscious decision that I would never blow out or 247 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 2: straighten my hair on TV because I thought especially and 248 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 2: this really started when I was on guest hosting the 249 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 2: c SPAN Morning call in show. You get collars from 250 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 2: all over the country, all over the world, and like 251 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 2: it's important that the people in Nebraska see what my 252 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: hair looks like. It's important for the people in Boise, Idoh, 253 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 2: every place to see what natural hair looks like in 254 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 2: their living rooms as they're having their coffee, so that 255 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 2: this can stop, so that this idea that that's not 256 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: acceptable in media, in news, it's okay. I'm When I 257 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 2: was in a journalism school, there were still people telling, 258 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 2: you know, black women, you need to relax your hair, 259 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 2: You need to have a look that is acceptable for 260 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 2: TV news, you need to be accepted in people's living room, 261 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 2: and that essentially meant doing everything you can to adhere 262 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 2: to a Eurocentric beauty standard, and that's really appalling. In 263 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 2: so many spaces, we are forced to assimilate and adhere 264 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 2: to a standard created by someone else for someone else, 265 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 2: and we're the ones who are asked to change ourselves 266 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 2: as opposed to the other way around, other people learning 267 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 2: to accept us. And I didn't want to be a 268 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 2: part of that, so that was important to me. I 269 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: think now you see a lot more people wearing their 270 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: hair natural, being themselves, clothing that it fits us better 271 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 2: because our bodies can be different. I mean, so many 272 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 2: things are beginning to change. I still think there's a 273 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 2: way to go. 274 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: I thought about often, how because I was a senior 275 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: director at my company. Yes, sure I wasn't the CEO 276 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: or anything like that, but I was able to set 277 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: a tone and the level of is acceptability the right word, 278 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: but I felt like anyone who joined my team, and 279 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: my team was like nearly half bipock. Intentionally on my part, 280 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm going to be the quiet leper 281 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: sell that's going to be hiring these black and brown 282 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: people and they're not going to know I'm doing it, 283 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna do it that because I was representing 284 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: and I was there my natural hair, that at least 285 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: the signal would be sent that this is okay. I'm 286 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: going to make it okay. And that's why I feel 287 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: like so passionate and dedicated to more women of color 288 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: in positions of power, putting yourself out there and all 289 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: of that. And I don't even know where I'm going 290 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: with this, but just to say thank you, it does matter. 291 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: And I tell you right now, when I drop myself 292 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: off at his daycare, which is mostly white, because this 293 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: is like I'm in the burbs now, the number of 294 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: little boys and girls who come out and stare at 295 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: my hair and point at it. You really like, as 296 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: I'm like one of the only black moms. I think 297 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: I saw a black mom last week. I'm not kidding. 298 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: I feel like a zoo animal sometimes. 299 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 2: Once somebody touched my hair on the subway and I 300 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 2: was just tripping, you know, like it it's like, this 301 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 2: is not a petting zoo, Like what are you doing? 302 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: Too short to touch it? But I can. But they're kids, 303 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: you know, too short. But I make sure I smile 304 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: big and I say hello, and I'm like, yep, this 305 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: is what moms look like too. But you never it 306 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: it really is. I mean, I don't, and it sucks 307 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: because you know, you think I may be the only 308 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: black woman they've seen today, you know what I mean. 309 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: And it's not okay, But that's where we live in 310 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: Okay the a fan. I'll be right back with more 311 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: of my conversation with Kimberly Atkinstore from the Boston Globe. 312 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: All right, Va Fan, I am back, So let's jump 313 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: back into my conversation with Kimberly Atkins Store from the 314 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: Boston Globe. So you write about a lot of what 315 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: you write about is and you also your podcast I'm 316 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: going to talk about that is the intersection of law 317 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: and the news and politics, am I correct? So what is? 318 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 2: So? 319 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: What excites you about that space? Because I know a 320 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: lot of people having come through this election, especially black women, 321 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: are just like tired. But what what drives and motivates 322 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: you to cover this area? Yeah? 323 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 2: I mean I was tired too, but that sort of 324 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 2: reinforces the importance of all of this, right, I mean, 325 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 2: so I was a lawyer. I was a lawyer before 326 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 2: I was a journalist, what kind of I mean. I 327 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 2: wrote for my college newspaper and stuff, and I really 328 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 2: loved journalism in college. I majored in journalism in college. 329 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 2: But I knew I was going to law school, and 330 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 2: I practiced law for a while, and I realized that 331 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 2: it was not for me for a lot of reasons. 332 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 2: I just think that was not you know, sometimes you 333 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 2: were in a career and you realize that that wasn't 334 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 2: the right choice for you and that there are other options. 335 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 2: And I was still in my twenties. I thought it 336 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 2: was a good idea for me to explore other options 337 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 2: before committing to something that might make me unhappy in 338 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 2: the long term. It was not specifically race issues that 339 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 2: chased me away from practicing law, even though I was 340 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 2: a civil litigation attorney in Boston in which I could 341 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 2: go weeks without seeing another black person in the legal space. 342 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 2: I worked for a wonderful employer, but I would go 343 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 2: to court to argue a case and sometimes be directed 344 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: to the criminal division or asked if I'm represented by counsel, 345 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 2: or asked if I was a criminal defendant. But that 346 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 2: wasn't the main reason I stopped. I just knew that 347 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 2: wasn't my bliss, even though I thought the law was interesting. 348 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 2: And so my journalism career, as you said, actually ended 349 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 2: up steering me toward a job covering the US Supreme 350 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: Court for the Lawyer's weekly papers. And I loved that. 351 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,120 Speaker 2: I loved being on that side, the journalism side, covering 352 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 2: these cases and why they were so important and explaining 353 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 2: that to people. And I was pretty good at doing 354 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 2: that as well. And then as I transitioned away from that, 355 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 2: I got into politics. I never intended to cover politics. 356 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 2: I was actually afraid of it, and I had an 357 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 2: editor when I was at the Boston Herald that said, ah, 358 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:46,719 Speaker 2: I think you'd be good at that. Go you know, 359 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 2: go to the State House and cover it Romney and 360 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 2: I was like, do what now? So I did that 361 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 2: and I really loved it. It was a lot of fun, 362 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 2: and I've since then been able to sort of keep 363 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 2: a hand in both of those places, as well as 364 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 2: covering other national news as well. But that intersection is 365 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 2: really important in understanding how laws are made, what they cover, 366 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 2: what they impact. I mean, take the Crown Act. We 367 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 2: already have a law that prohibits discrimination in workplaces, so 368 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 2: technically it should already it is already illegal for employers 369 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 2: to discriminate against people and not promote them or demote 370 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 2: them or not hire them because of their hair texture. 371 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 2: But because people are unaware of that, and because an 372 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 2: employer can just say well, we have the right to 373 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 2: set standards, you know, dress codes, hair codes, whatever we 374 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,479 Speaker 2: want to do, and judges will say, hey, I think 375 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 2: that's right. You need an additional law in the Ground 376 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 2: Act to say no, no, it includes this. That's how 377 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 2: the legal system works, and explaining to people exactly why 378 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 2: that is when they would say, well, why is that 379 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: isn't already illegal? Well it is, but sometimes you need 380 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 2: that extra bit of help. The same way with it 381 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 2: wasn't the Emancipation Proclamation that required the end of enslaving people. 382 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 2: It took an amendment to the Constitution, and then it 383 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 2: took states to actually adhere by that amendment to the Constitution. 384 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: It took much longer and much more, and you need 385 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 2: people explaining that process and what happens in those early 386 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 2: emancipation abolitionist newspapers like the First Emancipator, like The Liberator 387 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 2: and others. You could I have been going back and 388 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 2: reading them as part of this project, and you actually 389 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 2: see people like William Lord Garrison writing, you know, what 390 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 2: Lincoln did is all is nice, but that's not going 391 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 2: to change anything unless all these other things are done. 392 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 2: And they understood that. And so that's the kind of 393 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 2: the kind of approach that we're taking with the Emancipator. 394 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 2: And having that legal background and having the understanding of 395 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 2: the political realities is super valuable to be able to 396 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 2: help bring that to bear. 397 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think as excited as I was 398 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: for the possibility of the Crown Act passing, I mean, 399 00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: it's gone through the House now, it hasn't been through 400 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: the Senate yet. 401 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 2: Right, it has not. It faces a tough road there. 402 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: I yes, because the majority is like raiserin right, so 403 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: and probably Joe Manchin's going to screw it up somehow, 404 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: like he has been lately. But one of the things 405 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: about it was I was thinking about it, actually wrote 406 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: about it on LinkedIn because a white colleague of min 407 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: peer of mine had posted it, shared it, and I 408 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: was like, we still got to watch our backs. I mean, 409 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: obviously this is a piece of legislation, it does matter symbolically, 410 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: but the burden of proof will still be on us, 411 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: you know, So if you do feel like you are 412 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: being discriminated against because of your hair texture, I know 413 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 1: in some states it already has allow to be clear, 414 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: it's not federal yet, but in some states it is 415 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: a law. But keeping a record if there's any comments 416 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: or any you know. I think back to that twenty 417 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: something year old me who was being told by Jeff that, 418 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: you know, probably going back to relax would be the 419 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: better move for me. Ah man, if I'd only had 420 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: a record of that conversation. But protecting ourselves and also 421 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: not being complacent because at this at the end of 422 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: the day, even with legislation, the bias is so present. 423 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 1: People's bias against us, you know, and it doesn't always 424 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: come so wrapped up in a bow, you know, in 425 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: terms of discrimination, like we do not want you for 426 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: this position because we don't think that you're professional enough 427 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: because you're black and your hair is natural. It's it's 428 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 1: never that easy for us to prove. And that I 429 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: feel like is the is always the exhausting challenge of 430 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 1: it all it. 431 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 2: Is, and I think that's why conversations like this are 432 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 2: so important. I think that's why the Emancipator is so important. 433 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 2: I don't legislation is not going to save us. Okay, 434 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 2: legislation is not going to save us. We have to 435 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 2: get through to people. We have to connect with people 436 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 2: and let them understand exactly what the impact of things 437 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 2: like that, something that may seem so innoculous that just 438 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 2: was brushed off by people who have never been impacted 439 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 2: by it because I didn't know, they didn't understand, they've 440 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 2: never experienced that. And I think, you know, conversations like 441 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 2: this just teaching people, letting them see. I mean, for 442 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 2: the I don't mean to jump ahead, but the series 443 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 2: that I'm working on for the Emancipator is addresses built 444 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 2: in racial bias in financial systems, and I think I 445 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 2: genuinely believe that the people who will continue to perpetuate it. 446 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 2: A lot of these things were built by design. They 447 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 2: did not want black people to own property to get 448 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 2: wealth to That was by design, going back to antebellum times. 449 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 2: But what I think perpetuates it are people who think 450 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 2: they're being reasonable or being fair or doing the right thing, 451 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 2: or not understanding how that built in bias works. You know, 452 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 2: people who say, well, well, yes, I want somebody to 453 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 2: have to prove that they can pay for this house 454 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 2: if they buy it. That seems fair, right, So they 455 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,959 Speaker 2: put in all of these procedures that are really surgic 456 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 2: targeted toward black folks to keep them from buying that 457 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 2: house or starting that business, or you know, they say, well, 458 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 2: I want my neighborhood to be safe, and there should 459 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 2: be ways to ensure that, and that gets into redlining 460 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 2: policies that are designed to keep black people out. It's 461 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 2: also teaching black people that they're somehow risky. You know, 462 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 2: so many systems, even more so than the criminal justice 463 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 2: system perhaps where you have this built in idea that 464 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 2: black people. You know, if you have something like a 465 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 2: police shooting, the justification of that is the subjective threat 466 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 2: that the police officer felt in that situation. So if 467 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 2: that police officer believes that black people inherently believes that 468 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 2: black people are more threatening, that's going to justify that 469 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 2: right Nowhere else is it that clear. As in financial systems, 470 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 2: where black people are perceived credit risks, Black people are 471 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 2: perceived security risks when they buy a house in your neighborhood. 472 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 2: Black people are seeing risky business venture because who's you know, 473 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 2: who's going to buy that product? Black people seen as 474 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 2: risk and that's built into the system. And I think 475 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 2: people don't understand how that plays out. But when you 476 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 2: explain it in that way, I hope, I hope people 477 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 2: all people will say, Oh, that isn't fair. That's not 478 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 2: how it should work. If you work hard, if you 479 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 2: do what you're supposed to, life, liberty and the pursuit 480 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 2: of happiness should be yours too. It shouldn't. You shouldn't 481 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 2: start out at a disadvantage just because of who you are. 482 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 2: And that's when I'm hoping this series will bring to bear, 483 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 2: will teach people and hopefully lead to some change. 484 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: Thank you for bringing that up. I didn't know that 485 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: your series was focused on the intersection of Black Americans 486 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: in the financial system. Where do we begin. I'm absolutely 487 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: I'm like panting here. Yes, let's talk about it. I 488 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: remember last summer, or not even last sum was it 489 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: last summer, my co host Tiffany It telling a story 490 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: of how her home was appraised lower. She actually had 491 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: a white friend that she had on tap to appear 492 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: at her home as as Tiffany, in order to get 493 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: a higher appraisal when they were trying to do I 494 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: think a refinance. And now we're starting to see more 495 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: of these really upsetting but important anecdotes from other black 496 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: homeowners who are proving our homes have been undervalued. And 497 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: I just think of and I live now in a 498 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: majority black neighborhood in the suburbs of New York, which 499 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: is just this little gem that I hope no one 500 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: bugs us, ever bothers us. But I have to reckon 501 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 1: with the fact that my husband and I could afford 502 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: a house here because it's one of the more cheaper 503 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: of areas of our county. And I have to assume 504 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,719 Speaker 1: it's because it's a large it's been a largely black 505 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: middle class neighborhood, you know, since the nineteen forties, but 506 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 1: talk from of the series where do you even begin? Kim, Like, 507 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: where do you begin? 508 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 2: Yes? Do you know that point? I mean that point 509 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 2: in itself that just it resonates so hard. I was 510 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 2: talking to someone who is very well off, started an 511 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 2: entrepreneur who is pulling in massive amounts of money, and 512 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 2: even he had that experience about being quoted a higher 513 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 2: interest rate on a house that he was buying than 514 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 2: he was originally given when the transaction was still purely 515 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 2: online and once they saw him. So that effects that's 516 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,360 Speaker 2: still happening in the realm of funny not funny. I 517 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 2: got married last year. My husband is white and we 518 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 2: are thinking about moving. And one of the things I've 519 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:30,719 Speaker 2: said to him is like, all right, well, you know 520 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 2: you haven't had this experience before. But when it's time 521 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 2: to appraise the house, I think we should take the 522 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 2: picture down. When you know we are. If there is 523 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 2: a situation where you have to go into the mortgage agent, 524 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 2: you'll take the tax returns, and I want you to 525 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 2: go in and it's awful. It's awful too. I mean, 526 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 2: he was appalled, and I'm appalled to I'm appalled that 527 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 2: this is the system. I also don't want the sky 528 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 2: high interest rate, so I'm gonna do what I need 529 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 2: to do in the meantime to survive. But that's the 530 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 2: exactly the kind of thing that that we're talking about, 531 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 2: and it is foundationally, especially when it comes to buying 532 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 2: home property. I sort of start with explaining how preventing 533 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 2: black folks from owning land is the foundational part of 534 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 2: all of this, and then I go off. I go 535 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 2: in this series to explore four different areas where that's 536 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 2: just gotten a little bit less attention than housing discrimination 537 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 2: and redlining. One. This one's getting much more attention now 538 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 2: thanks to some lawmakers. But one is student loan debt. 539 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 2: Student loan debt is a massive contributor to the racial 540 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 2: wealth gap because black parents like mine, teach us got 541 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 2: to go to school. You got to go to college. 542 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 2: If you want to succeed, like you got to work 543 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 2: hard and go to college. Well, college is very expensive. 544 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 2: And then you know, I went to law school, I 545 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 2: became a lawyer. I did the things that I thought 546 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 2: I was supposed to do that landed me six figures 547 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 2: in debt. And I remembered when I was graduating law 548 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: school and I had my exit interview with the financial 549 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 2: aid talking to a friend of mine afterwards saying, oh, 550 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 2: my god, did you have your exit interview and they 551 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 2: just told you how much money you owe? Isn't that crazy? 552 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 2: And my friends, who were largely white, almost all white, said, 553 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 2: what interview? Well, we don't have loans. Our parents paid 554 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 2: for law school. And I thought, oh, so we graduated. 555 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 2: I'm seeing them buying cars, buying houses, getting married, moving 556 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,719 Speaker 2: to the suburbs, and I'm still in my rental, you know, 557 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 2: in jamake a plane Boston, barely making ends meet, trying 558 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 2: to make those massive student loan payments the best that 559 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 2: I could. And it's like, Oh, this is what the 560 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 2: wealth gap means. It doesn't just mean what your parents 561 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 2: pass on to you. It's what you have in this 562 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 2: life as you're just trying to get by. And that 563 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 2: was sort of what made me think of this. And 564 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 2: I look at credit reporting, the barriers in there access 565 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 2: to business capital. Black people could be building, could be 566 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 2: contributing so much more to the economy if you just 567 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 2: let them start businesses and hire people and put that 568 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 2: money back into the economy and also invest in investment 569 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 2: and retirement. The racial wealth gap doesn't just harm black 570 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 2: and brown people harms everybody. It strips trillions of dollars 571 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 2: from the gross national product over our lifetimes. It really 572 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 2: is costing everyone money. And I'm hoping that if I 573 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 2: put it that way, like it's called you want to 574 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 2: you want to stop this from costing you money in 575 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 2: your pocket, then do what you can to be a 576 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 2: part of the solution here. 577 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so grateful that we have that you are 578 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: doing this kind of work. It's so so important, and 579 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: I hope that a lot of non black people read 580 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: it and are moved by it and understand, because I 581 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: bet all those friends from of years from law school 582 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: probably go through the world thinking I worked hard. I 583 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: went to law school. You know people are mad that 584 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: they can't have a house, Well, they should have worked harder. 585 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: But if you don't understand the privilege and that whole 586 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: starting line being so far set back for some people, 587 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: how how can you who? And you know the majority 588 00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: is in power, right, so we need we need allyship 589 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: understanding from non black and brown people in positions of power. 590 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: When they start to care, that's when the change happens. 591 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: We saw what happened with George Floyd in the summer 592 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty, when enough of the majority started to care, 593 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: not just besides us, and it felt extraordinary. But how 594 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: can we bring something like that to the same fever 595 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: point in the financial sector. It's quiet discrimination, it's nefarious, 596 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: It's like a toxic cancer, right, And we understand it, 597 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: especially on brown ambition. We understand why it is that 598 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: we're doing what we're doing. But it doesn't necessarily always 599 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: make headlines. You know, there was that the more recent 600 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: one about Wells Fargo with was it Wells Fargo that 601 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: discriminated or gave so much more mortgage denials to black 602 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: homeowners and any other bank? I think it was recent. 603 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: I'll check the facts on that one. If it was 604 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: Wells Fargo or not. I just feel like they're the 605 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: worst in general, so probably it was them, But it's 606 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: usually Wells Fargo, right. But the attention that article was getting, 607 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: I'm like, yes, more of this, more data to show 608 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: how racism pops up for us, absolutely. 609 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 2: And it's also important for us to show solutions. You know, 610 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 2: these are things that we could be doing instead. These 611 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 2: are other paths that people have taken that maybe can 612 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 2: be adapted on a wider scale. These are things that people, 613 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 2: individuals can do to empower themselves in this system. So 614 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 2: we don't want it just to be, like I said, 615 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 2: a regurgitation of the problem. We want this to be 616 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 2: a playbooks and also start a conversation. Look, I don't 617 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 2: have all the answers. Even with all the reporting that 618 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 2: I did, all the people that I've talked to about solutions, 619 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 2: this is not exhaustive. So I hope once this comes 620 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 2: out more people will say, hey, you know, we know 621 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 2: that problem and this is a solution that we've tried, 622 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 2: or this is a new program that we are taking on, 623 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 2: so that we can continue this conversation and come up 624 00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 2: with more solutions. It's not a stagnant thing, and so 625 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 2: that we can not only educate people about these barriers, 626 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:09,719 Speaker 2: but also empower them, including all stakeholders, everybody from the 627 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 2: banks of America down to your individual self at your 628 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 2: kitchen table trying to make ends meet at the end 629 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 2: of each month. What everybody can do, what is in 630 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 2: everybody's power, was everybody's responsibility to making sure that that realization, 631 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 2: that ideal in the Declaration of Independence, life, liberty, and 632 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 2: the pursuit of happiness is real for everyone. 633 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: That's such a wonderful place to end our conversation. I 634 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: wish we had more time. I want everyone to not walk, 635 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: but run to the show notes right now, because we're 636 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: going to put a link to Kimberly's newsletter Unbound in there, 637 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:46,959 Speaker 1: and also a link to where you can find out 638 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: more about the Emancipator, which will be launching this month 639 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: in April. Congratulations Kim on the Emancipator, on Unbound, on 640 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: all your success. Thank you so much for joining Brown 641 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: Ambition and spend such a wonderful conversation. I've loved having you. 642 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me on. I've loved 643 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 2: talking to you. 644 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: Hey, ba fan, we could not do this show without 645 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 1: your support or the support of our team behind the scenes. 646 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,760 Speaker 1: The Brown Emission podcast is produced by Cumulus Podcast Network. 647 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 1: It's edited by the wonderful Imani Crosby and produced by 648 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: Tanya Bustos. Dennistimplinsky is our in house tech guru, and 649 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: I am Bandy Woodard Santos, your co host, and I 650 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: will see y'all next week.