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Speaker 1: Also media here, everyone, Robert Evans here, and before we

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Speaker 1: get to the episode, obviously a lot of people in

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Speaker 1: Gaza need a lot of different help. But we've been

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Speaker 1: connected to the Algazawi family by a friend of ours

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Speaker 1: who's doing aid work there right now. They are trying

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Speaker 1: to get fourteen members of their family out of Gaza

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Speaker 1: before you know, things get any worse for them, and

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Speaker 1: they're raising money to do so on go fund me.

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Speaker 1: If you google help al Gazawe family escape Gaza go

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Speaker 1: fund Me, you can find it. Algazawie is spelled a

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Speaker 1: l g h a zz a w I.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to help them, you know, get to a

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Speaker 1: safer place, so please consider donating if you can. Behind

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Speaker 1: the Bastards podcast Bad People tell you all about Them.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to our epic four parter on the Vrinti Barrier.

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Speaker 1: Every Buddy's second favorite Georgian who went on to commit

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Speaker 1: crimes against humanity?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, even the people of Georgia's second favorite.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, definitely the people of Georgia's second favorite.

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Speaker 2: He is he is not quite winning against against our

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Speaker 2: buddy Stalin, But who is winning today is our guest

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Speaker 2: in this fine podcast Joe Kasabian, Joe, welcome to the

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Speaker 2: pro Hey, thanks for I'm happy to be the second

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Speaker 2: Joe mentioned so far in this episode. Yeah, it's good

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Speaker 2: to be back. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you're gonna want to become like the

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Speaker 1: unquestioned head of the USSR, you're going to need a

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Speaker 1: pithier last name than Kassebian. It's just not going to sell.

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Speaker 2: I mean, just like Joseph Stalin had to change his

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Speaker 2: last name, I'm gonna have to change mine.

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Speaker 1: Have you considered a different alloy, Joe, tungsten?

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Speaker 2: That could work. I'm more of like a man of

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Speaker 2: aluminum type guy. Depending on the year, that could be

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Speaker 2: very valuable, but not all that really Yeah yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: speaking of useful but not all that reliable.

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Speaker 1: Let's get back to the story of Lavni Barrier. When

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Speaker 1: we left off our buddy, he had kind of finally

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Speaker 1: worked his way into Stalin's good books. He had succeeded Yazov,

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Speaker 1: the man that everybody called a homicidal dwarf, despite the

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Speaker 1: fact that he was five feet tall, which is a

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Speaker 1: like a normal human height.

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Speaker 2: I think somebody says, like Napoleon was sure he was

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Speaker 2: just normal size. It's more fun to think of evil

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Speaker 2: people as short, because then there no kind of adorable

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Speaker 2: and innocent Yeah.

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Speaker 1: As opposed to someone with millions of people's blood on

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Speaker 1: their hands. I don't know why we think it makes

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Speaker 1: it better, but I guess people did. But anyway, Yezov

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Speaker 1: is out. He's going to be killed pretty soon after

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Speaker 1: this because he's a guy who lost his job as

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Speaker 1: secret policeman in the Soviet Union. And that's what happens

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Speaker 1: when you're a secret policeman.

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Speaker 2: Yes, severance packages are normally you know, I don't know

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Speaker 2: how much oker have bullet costs, but it's worth about

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Speaker 2: that much money. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The severance packages are measured in millimeters plait Lubkov hid. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's more or less what happens to Yezov. So

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Speaker 1: so by kind of the late nineteen thirties thirty seven

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Speaker 1: or so Barria is thirty eight, like late nineteen thirty eight.

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Speaker 1: Barria is the head of the NKVD. He's gotten close

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Speaker 1: to Stalin by becoming his mom's nurse and then attending

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Speaker 1: his mom's funeral in lieu of Joseph Stalin, which is

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Speaker 1: great Stalin. At least two biographers they've read say Stalin

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Speaker 1: always felt bad about this. I don't know that I

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Speaker 1: believe Stalin felt bad about things.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I don't think Stalin ever felt bad about anything. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps maybe it's like a Darth Vader thing where he's

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Speaker 1: like doing the big like cheesy, no is he is?

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Speaker 2: He did?

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Speaker 1: Did Stalin have a powered body armor that acted as

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Speaker 1: a life support system?

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Speaker 2: I assume so it worked all the way until he

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Speaker 2: collapsed into a pile of his zone piss in his office. Yes. Yeah, so.

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Speaker 1: November of nineteen thirty eight, KVD head at Yezov had

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Speaker 1: been forced to resign citing his health and the strait

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Speaker 1: of being overworked. Laverni Barria replaces him, and he does

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Speaker 1: the normal thing you do when you take over for

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Speaker 1: the secret Police, which is purge all of the guys

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Speaker 1: who had been loyal to the dude before you. Right now,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that happens whenever this goes on

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Speaker 1: is that you wind up purging all of the people

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Speaker 1: who had done the last round of purges, which which

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Speaker 1: Barria does. And that's really kind of the safe move, right.

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Speaker 1: You want the people who are really good at carrying

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Speaker 1: out a purge out of there, because you know that's

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Speaker 1: not going to benefit you at all if they're sitting

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Speaker 1: around with their finger on any triggers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like any company, however, that has like a

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Speaker 2: complete one percent turnover rate in three years. You got

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Speaker 2: to start getting a little bit worried about where you like.

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Speaker 2: The only way to secure, to make sure that you

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Speaker 2: don't end up in a ditch, is to put everybody

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Speaker 2: else in a dish. Yeah, it's an Amazon did about

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Speaker 2: kind of situation. Yeah, maybe he does assume this is

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Speaker 2: how every Amazon warehouse works, but with robots.

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Speaker 1: And like an Amazon warehouse. His first job is to

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Speaker 1: hound his predecessor's wife into suicide, which he does of

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Speaker 1: course Jesus. She wants taking poison that is supplied by

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Speaker 1: his old boss, Sergo, who has also been killed by

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Speaker 1: this points widow. So Sergo's wife is like, I know

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Speaker 1: the plan, Like, look, your husband got fired, you should

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Speaker 1: probably just take this poison.

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Speaker 2: I promise it's what. It's better to eat this than

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Speaker 2: what Lavrenti has planned for you otherwise. It is nineteen

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Speaker 2: thirty eight in the Soviet Union. Things aren't going to

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Speaker 2: get better anytime soon.

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Speaker 1: You really don't want to be around for the next

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Speaker 1: like seven years.

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Speaker 2: It's all bad. Yeah, maybe we should take her daily

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Speaker 2: vitamin suicide pill.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, just go ahead and take this. You'll you'll

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Speaker 1: miss out on some bad times. So the rate of

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Speaker 1: arrests and executions does decline after late nineteen thirty eight,

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Speaker 1: but not by as much as you'd think, Like people

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Speaker 1: will generally agree this is the end of the error,

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Speaker 1: but they're still executing quite a few people, and now

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Speaker 1: it's Barria kind of doing the executions. Three arrested Politbureau

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Speaker 1: members are killed in early nineteen thirty nine, and Barria

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Speaker 1: handles those executions. But these proved to be that a

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Speaker 1: deer of this particular level of fear, at least for

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Speaker 1: high ranking Soviet officials. The next thing Barry is going

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Speaker 1: to do is follow in his former bosses footsteps, purging

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Speaker 1: Red Army officers. And since all of the really good

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Speaker 1: ones are gone, he's not even purging the top guys

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Speaker 1: at this point, right he's.

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Speaker 2: Taking out random lieutenants.

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Speaker 1: There's one Marshal here. Right after he moves to Moscow

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Speaker 1: to like take over the NKVD, he's going to wind

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Speaker 1: up like torturing Marshall. Blucher b l i U k

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Speaker 1: h e Er is how it's usually anglicized. And Barria

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Speaker 1: he's not great at He's not as good at torturing

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Speaker 1: as he's going to be, so he kind of accidentally

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Speaker 1: beats this guy until he loses an eye and dies

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Speaker 1: a few weeks later from his injuries.

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Speaker 2: On the job injuries. You know, it's a bummer.

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Speaker 1: You know you're not supposed to torture them quite that much.

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Speaker 1: But what do you do when you've accidentally killed this

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Speaker 1: guy too fast? You torture his wife? Right? Uh?

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Speaker 2: Sure, that's what it says in my employee handbook.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's the norm for podcasters. And this Marshall's

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Speaker 1: wife is later going to claim she felt that Barrya

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Speaker 1: tortured her just for sadistic curiosity, kind of because he

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Speaker 1: had killed her husband too early. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: well to judge that.

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Speaker 2: He's got to get better at it. You know, he

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Speaker 2: needs on.

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Speaker 1: The job twenty ten thousand hours of torturing to get

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Speaker 1: really good at it. That's what that Malcolm Gladwell book

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Speaker 1: is about.

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Speaker 2: If I'm remembering it priorly, I think it might actually

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Speaker 2: have been.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that book is torture, so I get it now.

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Speaker 1: As the killing receded, a sense of cautious optimism emerged

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Speaker 1: among the men of Stalin's inner circle, and Barria is

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Speaker 1: now officially among them. At the eighteenth Party Congress in

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Speaker 1: March of nineteen thirty nine, the gang was met with

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Speaker 1: thunderous applause, and Stalin announced that the recent purges had

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Speaker 1: made the USSR more resilient than ever in the face

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Speaker 1: of ongoing fascist pressure. And again, this is the justification

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Speaker 1: guys like Molotov are going to be parrotting until literally

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty that this great terror that kills all of

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Speaker 1: the officers who know how to do anything in the

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Speaker 1: army was necessary because you didn't want unreliable men around

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Speaker 1: when this inevitable conflict with fascism starts out.

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Speaker 2: Everybody knows the first step of every emergency is to

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Speaker 2: take the nearest firearm and just shoot the tip of

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Speaker 2: your own dick off. Yeah. Yeah, there's someone that dick

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Speaker 2: getting in the way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Now they can't shoot you in the dick. You've

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Speaker 1: already suffered the worst that you can suffer, exactly. That

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Speaker 1: is kind of the logic they're working on here. It's

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Speaker 1: one of those you know, it's it's fair to say

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Speaker 1: that Stalin at least always expresses that war with the

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Speaker 1: Nazis is inevitable, and obviously Hitler believes that war with

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Speaker 1: the Soviet Union is inevitable because he starts one. That said,

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Speaker 1: not everybody is convinced that this is in fact the case,

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Speaker 1: and kind of some of the evidence for this is

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Speaker 1: that the Soviet Union in Nazi Germany are kind of

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Speaker 1: engaging in wargames and joint training exercises through the mid thirties,

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Speaker 1: and a much more direct threat to actual Soviet territorial

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Speaker 1: integrity in the late thirties is the Empire of Japan,

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Speaker 1: and they're actually going to wind up fighting the Empire

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Speaker 1: of Japan well before they wind up in a direct

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Speaker 1: conflict with the Nazis. Yeah, in Mongolia, right, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: over Mongolia, that's right, because you know, the Japanese Army

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Speaker 1: has occupied Manchuria since thirty one, and they're kind of

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Speaker 1: continually expanding through the thirties, which eventually locks them into

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Speaker 1: a series of border conflicts with the Soviets. This kind

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Speaker 1: of culminates in the Battle of Lake Kasan in nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirty eight. That's kind of the really big engagement in

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Speaker 1: this series of clashes, and then there's a series of

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Speaker 1: kind of lower stakes battles until the calamitous battles of

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Speaker 1: Kulkin Gol in Mongolia.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that one was real bad. It's really bad. Yes.

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Speaker 2: The Soviets built an entire rail line just to get

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Speaker 2: all of their supplies there, while japan made all their

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Speaker 2: dudes mark hundreds of miles on foot.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, not easy to make the Russian

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Speaker 1: army look efficient, but the Japanese manage it. During this fight,

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Speaker 1: it's a sizable battle for the time, by like World

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Speaker 1: War II standards. This is like a skirmish, right, There's

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Speaker 1: like tens of thousands of men and hundreds of tanks

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Speaker 1: on each side, which does not make it hugely noteworthy

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Speaker 1: within the conflict that's going to happen. But this is

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Speaker 1: one of the first massive tank battles in history, right,

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Speaker 1: and it's where Georgi Zukov is going to earn his reputation.

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Speaker 1: And Zukov is going to be a big player in

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Speaker 1: the war that's coming up, right.

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Speaker 2: I think I've heard of him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, he's kind of noteworthy. The Japanese sixth Army

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Speaker 1: is defeated, and it's kind of clear to everybody that like,

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Speaker 1: the Empire of Japan is probably going to keep doing

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Speaker 1: Empire of Japan stuff, right. So again, within sort of

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Speaker 1: the gang that's running the USSR at this point, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of concern about Hitler planning and invasion, but

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Speaker 1: you could be forgiven for being like, well, maybe Japan's

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Speaker 1: kind of the more immediate thing reret at this stage,

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Speaker 1: because I mean the first war.

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Speaker 2: That they thought there was the Russo Japanese War as well,

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Speaker 2: that's right disastrous. Yeah, And this is kind of like

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Speaker 2: you do have to look at also, like if you're

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Speaker 2: these guys who have overthrown and replaced the czar, it's

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Speaker 2: pretty good for them to be like, well, when we

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Speaker 2: fought Japan, it went to hell of a lot better. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we didn't lose the whole navy. Even at the end

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Speaker 2: of World War two, the Soviet Union would be uh,

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Speaker 2: retaking things that the Empire of Japan took during the

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Speaker 2: Russo Japanese War. So it was all like petty grievances

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Speaker 2: forty years later. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now, and again within kind of the gang of people

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Speaker 1: around Stalin, there's still overall much more of a focus

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Speaker 1: on Hitler, which is going to prove to be pretty

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Speaker 1: wise in the long run, although how they actually prepare

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Speaker 1: for war with Hitler is not wise, because they don't

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Speaker 1: really prepare for war with Hitler, you know, see Robert

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Speaker 1: I disagree.

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Speaker 2: They prepared plenty by murdering everyone who knew what they

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Speaker 2: were doing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, get rid of all these guys, a final war

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Speaker 1: except for Zukhov thankfully over in Mongolia. Now there's a

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Speaker 1: couple of different plans that they kind of have for

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Speaker 1: how to play this. Stalin's first idea is to try

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Speaker 1: and develop a situation wherein Britain and France invade Germany

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Speaker 1: and he just sort of chills, which, if that had worked,

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Speaker 1: would have been a much better plan for the Soviet Union. Right,

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Speaker 1: hard not to see why you would prefer that. Now,

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Speaker 1: Since nineteen thirty five, the general policy of the Soviet

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Speaker 1: Union had been the popular Front against fascism, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of officials thought this meant that kind of inevitably

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Speaker 1: we're going to wind up in some sort of alliance

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Speaker 1: with Britain and France, right because they are clearly like

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Speaker 1: obviously just based on World War One. Not hard to

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Speaker 1: see why you would expect that that's how things are

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Speaker 1: going to break down, right, But it's not going to

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Speaker 1: wind up being that simple, as she liftitz Patrick rights.

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Speaker 1: When Britain put its negotiator on a slow boat to

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Speaker 1: Leningrad in August nineteen thirty nine, Stalin and Molotov had

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Speaker 1: had enough. Molotov was offended that the British had sent

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Speaker 1: a Foreign Office official of the second class, straying to

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Speaker 1: negotiate and straying like other Western diplomats who encountered him

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Speaker 1: in his first months as a foreign minister. Was struck

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Speaker 1: by Molotov's lack of diplomatic technique as well as social finesse.

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Speaker 1: He had no sense of negotiation, the British ambassador later recalled,

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Speaker 1: and would just stubbornly and woodenly repeat his own point

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Speaker 1: of view and ask innumerable questions of his interlocutors. And

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Speaker 1: you know, Molotov, because of the pact with the Nazis

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Speaker 1: that's going to come out of this, I think, has

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Speaker 1: this kind of reputation for being a good negotiator. He's

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Speaker 1: certainly not at this point. And again it's also not

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Speaker 1: hard to see why his immediate kind of reaction to

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Speaker 1: these Western powers isn't going to be positive, because these

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Speaker 1: guys had been enemies of the USSR since the Civil War,

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Speaker 1: right since before it's like settled as a state. So

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Speaker 1: it's not really surprising that one of the things that's

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Speaker 1: happening in this period contrad to what's going to happen later,

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Speaker 1: is there is some serious talk of allying with the Nazis.

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Speaker 1: That is probably never that's certainly never Stallian's plan, but

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Speaker 1: it's something Molotov thinks actually might happen for a while.

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Speaker 2: I mean that you also have to remember, like during

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Speaker 2: and after the Russian Civil War, the British, the French,

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Speaker 2: the Americans, and the Japanese all were actively invading Russia.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, this is not like and also historically it's

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Speaker 1: not weird, right Otto von Bismarck had worked very hard

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Speaker 1: to develop an alliance with the Russians. Are because Bismarck,

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Speaker 1: being reasonably intelligent, is like, well, if we have an

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Speaker 1: alliance with the Russians, we just can't be invaded, Like

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Speaker 1: you can't take Germany if Russia is backing it up,

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Speaker 1: Like it's just not really.

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Speaker 2: Realistic, it's pretty so do you fight that war? Right

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Speaker 2: And obviously, like the fucking Kaiser fucks all of that up,

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Speaker 2: which is part of why World War One goes the

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Speaker 2: way it does. Again, Stalin has never liked or trusted Hitler.

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Speaker 2: He sees some sort of conflict a war as pretty inevitable.

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Speaker 2: But there's definitely a period where even Stalin is like,

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Speaker 2: we might have we might be able to like temporarily

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Speaker 2: have some sort of an accord with the Germans that

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Speaker 2: will give us time to rebuild the Red Army, which

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Speaker 2: I know, I kind of fucked up, right, And this

300
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Speaker 2: is what leads to the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact, which is,

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Speaker 2: you know, one of the like three treaties everybody learns

302
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Speaker 2: about in high school. Now, the terms in broad are

303
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Speaker 2: that neither state is going to attack the other or

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Speaker 2: help with someone else's attack on the other. That's the

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Speaker 2: public stuff in this pact, And this is a pretty

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Speaker 2: major reversal from the Popular Front against fascism obviously, right,

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Speaker 2: you can't call this the popular Front against fascism. Now,

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Speaker 2: that's the popular Front with fascism. Yeah. Yeah, secret agreements

309
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Speaker 2: of like, you know, let's have this cake shape like Poland, Yeah,

310
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Speaker 2: how would you like divvy it up a bit? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And we'll get to that there. But the fact

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Speaker 1: that there is this dissonance between the old Popular Front

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Speaker 1: against Fascism and this new pact. This is like severe

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Speaker 1: enough that it causes some real issues within sort of

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Speaker 1: the Soviet power structure, and it's these are serious enough

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Speaker 1: that Stalin has to kind of take them seriously and

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Speaker 1: he actually sits down with a lot of his underlings

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Speaker 1: to try to explain the necessity of the move. Barrya's

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Speaker 1: son would later claim that this never works on Barria

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Speaker 1: and that he's privately unenthusiastic about the pact. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how seriously to take that. You know, the keyword

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Speaker 1: is certainly private. And was he really enthusiastic about anything

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Speaker 1: other than murder, Yeah, marrying teenagers, you know, police, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: beating people until they go blind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Obviously Barria knows that his new position in Moscow is

327
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Speaker 1: still pretty shaky, and all the comfort that it brings

328
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Speaker 1: him relies on continuing to suck up to Stalin. Khrushchev

329
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Speaker 1: in this period describes Barria as constantly manipulative and always

330
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Speaker 1: working to ingratiate himself with Stalin and provide dirt on

331
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Speaker 1: his colleagues. Stalin, who does have kind of a sixth

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Speaker 1: sense for when people are kind of getting too far

333
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Speaker 1: up his ass. Would regularly whenever kind of Barry would

334
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,359
Speaker 1: get too close, would do something to try to remind

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Speaker 1: him of his place. And we get a good example

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Speaker 1: of this in September of nineteen thirty nine, when at

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Speaker 1: a dinner, Barria kept pushing the German embassy counselor Gustav

338
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Speaker 1: Hilger to drink to excess. Hilger later claimed Stalin soon

339
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,960
Speaker 1: noticed that Barry and I were in dispute about something

340
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,359
Speaker 1: and asked to cross the table. What's the argument about?

341
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Speaker 1: When I told him, he replied, well, if you don't

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Speaker 1: want to drink, no one can force you, not even

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Speaker 1: the chief of the NKVD himself, I joked, whereupon he answered,

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Speaker 1: here at this table, even the chief of the NKVD

345
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Speaker 1: has no more say than anyone else, which is bull.

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Speaker 2: She assumes is going to make him go visit his

347
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Speaker 2: mom again. Yeah, go see my mom again. Oh she's

348
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Speaker 2: dead at this point. Fuck off, Go hang out at

349
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Speaker 2: her grave. I'm sick of here. Get out of here, Barrier.

350
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Speaker 1: I mean, this is Barry is kind of doing to

351
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Speaker 1: this Nazi what Stalin had him do to kind of

352
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Speaker 1: the other guys in the Soviet power structure, which is

353
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Speaker 1: he's kind of the dude at their dinner who's often

354
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Speaker 1: pushing people to drink more, which Stalin.

355
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Speaker 2: Likes to see.

356
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Speaker 1: But Stalin doesn't get anything out of making this Nazi

357
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,639
Speaker 1: get hammered, right, He's still trying to keep good relations

358
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Speaker 1: with him at this period, so he's kind of just

359
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:12,400
Speaker 1: like Bury, what the fuck?

360
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Speaker 2: Man? Like, he wants to get the best, get really

361
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,399
Speaker 2: drunk so he can draw dicks on his face. You know,

362
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,800
Speaker 2: really watch cowboy movies. You're gonna pass out and then

363
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:22,920
Speaker 2: you're gonna wake up, and now I'm gonna laugh really hard.

364
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, tomato in your pocket and a cock on your cheek.

365
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Speaker 2: So however he got about the tomato in the pocket,

366
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Speaker 2: it's my favorite. It's strange.

367
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Speaker 1: It's hard not to like that part of Stalin, Right,

368
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Speaker 1: That's just such a fun little prank. It's something like

369
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:38,199
Speaker 1: a twelve year old boy would do.

370
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Speaker 2: Okay, I kind of did something similar when I was

371
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Speaker 2: I wasn't necessarily kid. I was like sixteen maybe fifteen,

372
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Speaker 2: going to house parties getting drunk, and one of my

373
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Speaker 2: favorite things to do was like when one of my

374
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Speaker 2: friends had like a dog or a cat or whatever

375
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Speaker 2: is like find where they had the cat or dog food,

376
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Speaker 2: and then like slide my hand into people's pockets and

377
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Speaker 2: deposit fifthfuls of dog or cat food into their pockets

378
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,840
Speaker 2: without the moticing. I have no idea why I thought

379
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 2: it was so funny.

380
00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,480
Speaker 1: I think a lot of us have our like little

381
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,040
Speaker 1: little psychopathic thing we did to our friends when they

382
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,119
Speaker 1: were I used to light my friend's pants on fire,

383
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Speaker 1: you know, just a little bit, not all that much, right,

384
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Speaker 1: as a bit, you know, as a fun bit.

385
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not bad if you're like, ah, I got

386
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,480
Speaker 2: you as you go, jeans are going up and fres

387
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,840
Speaker 2: and if you can't have them executed for not laughing

388
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,359
Speaker 2: at the bit, right, I think that's key. That is

389
00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 2: the ultimate punchline. Yeah, it's throwing someone in a mass

390
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,040
Speaker 2: gray you will laugh or else. Yeah.

391
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Speaker 1: So, however Barry feels about this pact with the fascists,

392
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Speaker 1: he presides over a purge of the People's Commissariat of

393
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Speaker 1: Foreign Affairs to wipe out any diplomats who have a

394
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Speaker 1: strong anti German history. As soon as Stalin is like,

395
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Speaker 1: we're we're gonna be friends with the Nazis for a

396
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,880
Speaker 1: little while Barry is like, well, it's time to kill

397
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Speaker 1: every diplomat who doesn't like the Nazis. Right, that's going

398
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,000
Speaker 1: to be a problem when you just had like the

399
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 1: Coalition against Fascism, like, right, I would like everybody in

400
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,159
Speaker 1: the diplomatic off was like wait, wait, I thought anti

401
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 1: fascism was our thing.

402
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,920
Speaker 2: God, sorry, where are we on this? Yeah?

403
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:14,840
Speaker 1: And this is I mean, the main purpose of this

404
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,399
Speaker 1: is not just to get rid of anti Germans. It's

405
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,320
Speaker 1: largely an opportunity to take out any diplomats who are

406
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,520
Speaker 1: not totally committed to Stalin, right, because a lot of

407
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,400
Speaker 1: there's a lot of diplomats in the foreign policy chunk

408
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,160
Speaker 1: of the USSR who are just like diplomats, right, And

409
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,639
Speaker 1: that's the thing that they actually wanted to do, is

410
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 1: like be it functional diplomats. And what's happening in this

411
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,600
Speaker 1: period is the NKVD is gaining what's going to be

412
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:44,840
Speaker 1: semi permanent oversight over like the actual foreign services. Right,

413
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,399
Speaker 1: Barria is going to have men in there for most

414
00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,320
Speaker 1: of the rest of the time that he's alive. And

415
00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,240
Speaker 1: so that's kind of what they're doing in this period.

416
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,520
Speaker 1: And one of these guys, one of these anti German

417
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,240
Speaker 1: diplomats is the dude named Litvinov who had supported forming

418
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 1: an Antian block with the West. Litvanov is one of

419
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 1: the guys who's like, well, Stalin, you keep saying we're

420
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 1: gonna fight these Nazis, we should probably have a thing

421
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,679
Speaker 1: set up with the British and the French. That just

422
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 1: seems like good business. You know, you'll probably need this

423
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 1: on paper and not just vibes. Yeah, not just a

424
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 1: vibe thing. And Barry is going to respond to that

425
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 1: by having the NKVD surround Litvanov's house, and Litvanov you

426
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,960
Speaker 1: get the feeling he's kind of like a cool customer

427
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 1: because when he sees he's entirely surrounded by the secret police,

428
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,920
Speaker 1: he calls Barria on the phone and he's like, what

429
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 1: the fuck are you doing? And Barria responds, you just don't.

430
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:40,320
Speaker 2: Know you're worth man. I gotta protect you. You're in danger, right, Yeah,

431
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 2: I do seem to be in danger, that is christ

432
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Speaker 2: I will agree with you.

433
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,960
Speaker 1: This seems unsafe now. Another arrestee in this moment is

434
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,359
Speaker 1: a diplomat named Nazarov who gets busted on charges of

435
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 1: spying for Italy, not because he had actually spied for Italy,

436
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 1: but based on the undeniable fact that he had been

437
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 1: born in Genoa, and he'd been born in Genoa because

438
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,040
Speaker 1: his parents were longtime committed Communist revolutionaries who had to

439
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,359
Speaker 1: flee after the revolution right in nineteen oh five, which

440
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 1: is like really unfair to this guy. You know, your

441
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 1: parents are like so committed to the cause that they

442
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 1: have to go into exile. And then people are like, well,

443
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 1: you're clearly an Italian spy.

444
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:18,400
Speaker 2: You're trying to.

445
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 1: He's trying to steal our sauces for their goddamn bostas.

446
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 2: You were born in Genoa and only eat pasta. Fuck,

447
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,880
Speaker 2: he cannot be trusted. This passage from Amy Knight's book

448
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 2: gives good context on how brutal some of these arrests

449
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 2: tended to be and just the sheer level of like

450
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,920
Speaker 2: bullying that dominated them. Right.

451
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 1: Quote, Ganadan, who's one of these guys who gets arrested,

452
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 1: recalls how he was taken to Barry's office after he

453
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 1: had refused to confess to the espionage charges that Kobilov

454
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 1: had accused him of. When he continued to deny the charges, Kobolov,

455
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 1: who weighed more than three hundred pounds and his assistants

456
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 1: began beating him on the skull as Barra sat complacently watching.

457
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 1: Then Baria impatiently ordered Ganadan to lie on the floor,

458
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 1: where he was kicked repeatedly by several prison employees. Ganadan

459
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: had one final session with Barria, who at first adopted

460
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,879
Speaker 1: a thoughtful, cultured manner, asking Gannadan calmly if he had

461
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 1: finally decided to confess again. When Gannadan steadfastly asserted his innocence,

462
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,640
Speaker 1: he was brutally beaten Barry. His last words to Ganadan were,

463
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,880
Speaker 1: with such a philosophy and such provocations, you only make

464
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 1: your situation worse.

465
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 2: Christ, Oh, what good would have been done to Like,

466
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 2: even if they are in a sent most of the time,

467
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to assume they're probably innocent. It's like, okay,

468
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 2: you got me, I'm guilty. I did all this shit.

469
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,479
Speaker 2: Well you're just gonna die anyway. You might as well

470
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 2: make him work for it. You know, you're still gonna

471
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,479
Speaker 2: kill me, but you're gonna kill me tired.

472
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that is often the decision people are

473
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 1: making is like, well, if I admit it, it'll hopefully

474
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:46,200
Speaker 1: be over faster.

475
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,399
Speaker 2: Right, of course, of course some of the reason why

476
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 2: torture doesn't work as an interrogation tactic, like I'll tell

477
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 2: you whatever you want as long as you stop pulling

478
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 2: out my fucking fingernails.

479
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's why I am kind of amazed by

480
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: the few people it doesn't work on who are like,

481
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 1: torturing me all you want. The one thing I have

482
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,199
Speaker 1: is not giving in on this, you know. And you

483
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: do run into a couple of those guys. Not many

484
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: of them, obviously, because most people, for understandable reasons, don't

485
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: hold up under that forever. But there are a couple anyway. Yeah, Yeah,

486
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 1: at least tougher. Barria was given a Datcha on the

487
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 1: outskirts of Moscow that had once belonged to the former

488
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 1: chairman of the USSR who'd been arrested in thirty eight

489
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: and executed that year. It was furnished by the same

490
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 1: architect Stalin used, who was later sent to a goolag

491
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 1: and killed in thirty nine. Like most powerful men in

492
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 1: the USSR, barrias Datcha had a movie theater. Svetlana Stalin's

493
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: daughter claims that on Sundays at the Datcha, Barria would

494
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: relax by shooting at targets and then watching American and

495
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: German films in the evening. Afterwards, he would disappear. To quote,

496
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 1: no one knew where. We'll probably never know precisely how

497
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 1: barr has spent his off hours. But the largest allegation

498
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: you'll hear involves that he was committing rampant rape, often

499
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: of children.

500
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 2: Now, I was about to say, at any point there's

501
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 2: a long period of time where nobody can pinpoint Barria's location.

502
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 2: I'm assuming someone is suffering.

503
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: Someone is having the worst day of their life, and

504
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: if you want to have the best day of your life,

505
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 1: purchase these products. We're back and we're talking about Barria's

506
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 1: extracurricular activities. Now, the fact that Barria is like a

507
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 1: rampant sex criminal is often taken as a given by

508
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 1: people discussing his life. It is worth hammering home that

509
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 1: a lot of what's alleged about him comes from fellow

510
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: members of the Inner Circle, who again wanted to pin

511
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 1: all of the blame for Stalin's excesses on Barria. This

512
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 1: is in like fifty three after Stalin dies. After his arrest,

513
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: Barrya's bodyguard is going to produce a list of thirty

514
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,959
Speaker 1: nine women who Barria was said to have had sex with,

515
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: and this is presumably a mix of just actual consensual

516
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 1: affairs and non consensual stuff. Another bodyguard made this allegation

517
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: summarized by night quote. Another bodyguard, Nadaria, confessed at his

518
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: trial in nineteen fifty five that he and Sarsakov picked

519
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: up young women off the streets and transported them to

520
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: Barry's house, where he would rape them. According to another source,

521
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: young women in Moscow came to be terrified just by

522
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,959
Speaker 1: a glimpse of barious pictures in the press. Stalin, who

523
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: was a professed aesthetic in sexual matters, must have heard

524
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 1: what Barria was up to, but apparently chose to ignore it.

525
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 1: And again it's really hard, like I don't doubt this,

526
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 1: but it's also like you do have to keep the

527
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 1: province in mind, which is other guys who are being

528
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: tortured to confess.

529
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 2: I one hundred percent believe that there's truth to both

530
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 2: sides of this, or Barrio was absolutely a monster in

531
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 2: his personal time as well, especially because like look where

532
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 2: they kept finding skeletons for example, as well as everybody

533
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 2: making him seem like, you know, one hundred thousand times

534
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 2: worse than he actually was, which is not a defense.

535
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: I mean, like especially because like Stalin went like totally

536
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 2: new when you'll like, I like, I think we already

537
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 2: talked about it. Is like he told his daughter to

538
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 2: never go near Barry alone. Yeah, Like, yeah, he did

539
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 2: that for a reason.

540
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't think like the fact that Svetlana

541
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: seemed to have always been aware that there was something

542
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: unsafe about this guy is some of the best evidence

543
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 1: we get, right, because I don't see why she would necessarily,

544
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,360
Speaker 1: like why she would not have felt that way, right

545
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: if there wasn't an actual danger.

546
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 2: It does make me wonder when it started, because he's

547
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 2: had a fair amount of power for quite a long time,

548
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 2: and I highly doubt he waited until you know, he's

549
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 2: the head of the NKVD to flip a switch and

550
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 2: like all right now, I'm gonna do this for fun

551
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,959
Speaker 2: on my free time. Like there there had to be

552
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 2: something we just don't know about, you know.

553
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see it being a situation where, just

554
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 1: like when he's earlier in his career in Georgia, there's

555
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: just not enough good info left from that period of

556
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: time that we have many of these stories because of

557
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: how many people get purged, right, and so it's when

558
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: he gets to Moscow and there's more survivors from that

559
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: time that we get these stories. That seems plausible to me.

560
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

561
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 1: One of the stories you'll hear from his bodyguards is

562
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: that they were ordered to hand each of his victims

563
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 1: a flower bouquet as the victim left Barra's house, and

564
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,959
Speaker 1: the implication was that this made it consensual and if

565
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: they refuse the bouquet, they would be arrested and probably

566
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 1: don't have to guess what would happen. Then, one of

567
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,479
Speaker 1: Barria's bodyguards, Sarkasov, reported that a woman who had been

568
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: brought to Barria rejects the flower bouquet and flees his office,

569
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: and Sarkisov hands her the flowers anyway, and Barry is like, no,

570
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: it's not a bouquet. Now, it's a wreath and may

571
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: it rot on her grave.

572
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 2: Christ. So yeah, again, I don't really have trouble believing this.

573
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 2: I don't either. It seems to be as kind of

574
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 2: his thing. Yeah, it's it's it's probably you know. Uh, yeah,

575
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 2: I don't have trouble believing it. And when you when

576
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: you hear the same story from so many different sources. Yeah,

577
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 2: it's it is convincing, and there's no reason, Like, yeah,

578
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 2: it makes sense that they would lie and sheld make

579
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 2: Barry look worse to cover their own asses, But it

580
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 2: makes no sense from the lie and come up with

581
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: incredibly elaborate flower based murderer reason. Right, that feels really specific. Right,

582
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 2: that's not something someone just pulls out of their ass,

583
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 2: Like it would be very easy for them to lie

584
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 2: and like, yeah, he was a rapist and a murderer,

585
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: not suddenly he has a flower game and he has

586
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 2: this flower based system. Yeah, I don't know.

587
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: Now, there are some folks who will say that this

588
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: is all buppkis. You know. One former NKVD employee has

589
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: stated he thinks it's unlikely Barria would have had time

590
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: to do this because he had so much self control

591
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: when he was so busy. And Barry's wife says the

592
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: same thing, which, like, you know, and maybe she's honestly

593
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: saying this, Like her claim is that like he was

594
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: always working already have found the time to do this,

595
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, but he was very powerful and

596
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: it would have been easy for him to light you

597
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: about this and you know, and hardly be the first

598
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: serial killers, right, spouse no idea that they were doing

599
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: what they're doing. I mean, he was killing so many

600
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: other people, right, how would she even notice that she

601
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: that he killed thirty eight or so other people as

602
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: like a side gig. Yeah, And that's kind of where

603
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: I land is, like, yeah, you can. You can find

604
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: people from the United States and the seventies who were

605
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: married to someone who was committing like serial murders and

606
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: didn't know it. I don't have trouble believing that the

607
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: head of the NKVD could get away with a version

608
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: of that, you know.

609
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 2: Like the Green River Killer's wife had no idea that

610
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 2: he was the Green River killer. Yeah.

611
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't need to actually think that she's trying

612
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: to cover up something to think that, like she's not

613
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: right when she states that, you.

614
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 2: Know, and I don't feel like Barry is the most

615
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 2: open soul when it comes out deeping meaningful conversations with

616
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 2: their skins.

617
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: I would not be surprised to hear that he was

618
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: not great at communication with sort of his relayation ship.

619
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably a fair assessment, you know.

620
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, So anyway, this is a thing that is debated

621
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: and it's kind of worth talking about the degree to

622
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: which some of this is uncertain. Knight concludes the argument

623
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: around it this way. Even if the stories circulating in

624
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: Moscow were exaggerated, they almost certainly had some foundation. They

625
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: were corroborated by Edward Ellis Smith, a young American diplomat

626
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: who was serving in the US embassy in Moscow after

627
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: the war. Smith noted that Barry's escapades were common knowledge

628
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: among embassy personnel at the time because his house was

629
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: on the same street as a residence for Americans, and

630
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: those who lived there saw girls brought to Barry's house

631
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: late at night in a limousine.

632
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: So there you go.

633
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: But, like Knight says, I think it's almost certain that

634
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: he was committing what we would consider to be a

635
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: pretty huge number of sex crimes. That seems easy to argue,

636
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: you know.

637
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like a well regarded journalist at Grover

638
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 2: Furr would probably disagree.

639
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: So on November thirtieth, nineteen thirty nine, the USSR invaded Finland.

640
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: This would prove to be not the best idea that

641
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: ever happened out of the Stalinist era, largely because Finns

642
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,479
Speaker 1: are notably bullish on remaining fins. This kind of goes badly.

643
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: The USSR gets expelled from the League of Nations, although

644
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: that's not really a huge loss for them, but they

645
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: do suffer titanic casualties, which further contributes to the kind

646
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: of collapse of the Red Army which appeared so total

647
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: in nineteen forty that Hitler grew convinced he only needed

648
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: to kick in the door to couse the whole house

649
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: to collapse. And obviously Hitler is not accurate here, but

650
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: the Red Army is not looking good after the invasion

651
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: of Finland.

652
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: For his part, small plug here my show, we did

653
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 2: a series on the Winter War. Yehile ago, Yeah.

654
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, a good one to listen to to figure out

655
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,719
Speaker 1: how Finland can hold off the Red Army and inflict

656
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: what like around a million casualties.

657
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 2: It didn't go great for the Soviet Yeah yeah, don't

658
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 2: piss off guys who are into butterflies.

659
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: It turns out that hins Back. For his part, Barrier

660
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: did crucial work on the Finnish front. Largely he established

661
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: the NKVD ensemble of song and dance to ensure the

662
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: young boys being sent to die to finish snipers had

663
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: one last night of very mid entertainment. That is such

664
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: an imagine being sent to get shot to death by lepidopterists.

665
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: And your last relaxing experience is the nkv D Song

666
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: and Dance Unit. This sounds like the most depressed song

667
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: and dance like what are what is the the the

668
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: goth version of theater? Kids like that? That's the kind

669
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: of energy I expect to be brought here. Yeah, everybody's dancing,

670
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: no smiles in any faces? There yea, and there there

671
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: music listing all ska.

672
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh hey, now that would be a nice last night.

673
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 2: If it's good.

674
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: Scott brings some real big fish out there before you

675
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: get murked on the finish front, nobody nice style.

676
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: Like their horn player barely knows how to play. Nobody's skinning.

677
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: They're just doing that fucking mighty mighty boss Stones album

678
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: about the George Floyd. Oh what a horrible time.

679
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 2: Hey look there's a landmine. Pick it up, Pick it up,

680
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 2: pick it up, pick it up.

681
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: So Barria also spends a lot of time fucking up

682
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: his new position as the center of Foreign Affairs now

683
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: that the NKVD is basically overseeing the Foreign Affairs office

684
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 1: and watching over every diplomat's every move. Barria found the

685
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: temptation to fuck with things too great to endure. As

686
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: part of the German Soviet packed the Nazi sent a

687
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,720
Speaker 1: battle cruiser to Russia as payment for raw materials. Barria

688
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: had his men try to entrap the Nazi naval officer

689
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: who brought the ship. The goal was to turn him

690
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: into a double agent. But they were really bad about this,

691
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: and Hitler found out and complained to Stalin, and Stalin's like,

692
00:34:58,400 --> 00:34:59,479
Speaker 1: what the fuck are you doing?

693
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 2: We needed this boat. Why are you doing this? Nobody

694
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 2: told you to fuck with them this way. Barry is

695
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 2: such a weirdo he can't even honeypot. Someone correctly, no,

696
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 2: He's far too weird for that. So the Nazi Soviet

697
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 2: Treaty was publicly just a non aggression pact, but like

698
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 2: any good treaty, it included a bunch of secret protocols,

699
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 2: and these laid out how when the Nazis carried out

700
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 2: their invasion of Poland, the Red Army would be allowed

701
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 2: to move into eastern Poland and some of the Baltic states. Right,

702
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 2: and this doesn't happen kind of all at once. They

703
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 2: move into Poland first, the Baltic States kind of stay

704
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,399
Speaker 2: independent on paper for a while, and the Red Army

705
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 2: moves into the Baltic States. But this process starts in

706
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 2: September nineteen thirty nine, and when it does, Barria finds

707
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: himself presiding over a vast number of captured Polish officers

708
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 2: and soldiers, something like two hundred thousand men. Oh no, oh,

709
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 2: that's the really good sign.

710
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: No, no, you certainly don't want to be one of

711
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: these Polish officers now.

712
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 2: So I don't think anybody loves a good protocol quite

713
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 2: like the Russian Secret Police at any given era of time. Yeah,

714
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 2: they're loving good protocols, you know what I'm saying.

715
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't want I mean, none of this is

716
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: going to be a good situation. Now, About half these

717
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 1: two hundred thousand guys are freed pretty quickly, because holding

718
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: prisoners is expensive and kind of a pain in the ass.

719
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 2: You got to feed them, and shit, you gotta.

720
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 1: Feedom you gotta take. It's just the logistic problems. But

721
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: this is going to quickly turn into a very ugly situation.

722
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 1: As Timothy Snyder lays out in this passage from Bloodlands Lavnti,

723
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: Berria had come to a conclusion. Perhaps inspired by Stalin,

724
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 1: Barria made it clear in writing that he wanted the

725
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: Polish prisoners of war dead. In a proposal to the

726
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: polit Bureau and thus really to Stalin, Barria wrote on

727
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: fifth March nineteen forty that each of the Polish prisoners

728
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: was just waiting to be released in order to interactively

729
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 1: into the battle against Soviet power. He claimed that counter

730
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: revolutionary organizations and the new Soviet territories were led by

731
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: former officers, unlike the claims about the Polish military organization

732
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: a couple million of years before. This was no fantasy.

733
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 1: The Soviet Union had occupied an annexed half of Poland,

734
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 1: and some Poles were bound to resist. Perhaps twenty five

735
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: thousand of them took part in some kind of resistance

736
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: organization in nineteen forty. True, these organizations were quickly penetrated

737
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: by the NKVD and most of these people arrested, but

738
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: the opposition was real and demonstrable. Barrier used the reality

739
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: of Polish resistance to justify his proposal for the prisoners,

740
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,399
Speaker 1: quote to apply to them the supreme punishment shooting. So

741
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: they take this chunk of Poland, a chunk about a

742
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: quarter of the people they initially take prisoner, engage in

743
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 1: some kind of resistance activity like you do when your

744
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: home is invaded and occupied. And Barria uses the resistance

745
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: that's there to justify shooting as many of these guys

746
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: as we possibly can. Right now, there's debate, is this

747
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 1: a thing that Barria proposes and Stalin rubber stamps. Is

748
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: this this thing that Stalin made clear in a conversation

749
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 1: like Barria, I want you doing this, and then Barrier just.

750
00:37:58,680 --> 00:37:59,399
Speaker 2: Carries it out.

751
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 1: You get the kind of debate with a lot of

752
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: the stuff that Barria does, Right, is.

753
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 2: This a third time believing he's committing such a wide

754
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 2: scale massacre without some kind of official approval.

755
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: Certainly some kind of official approval, But I also Stalin's

756
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: doing enough that I wouldn't be wildly surprised if it's

757
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: Barria saying, hey, I think this is a good idea

758
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: and Stalin going yeah, man, let's fucking let's go for it.

759
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 2: You know, That's what that really probably was. Much like

760
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 2: there's no written order from Hitler to commit the Holocaust.

761
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 2: They's like, yeah, going.

762
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: Really, how the guy worked? You know, he's got a

763
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: lot on his plate. Regardless it is Barria, who is

764
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: in position and is going to take responsibility for the

765
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: massacre of a great number of Polish captives. To do this,

766
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: he had to revive the logic and tools of the

767
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: Great Terror. A new Troika system was established to go

768
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: through the files of every Polish pow. Most of these

769
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: men had already been interrogated and generally shown to have

770
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: been nothing but soldiers who had done their duty. Barria

771
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: instructed the troikas to ignore all previous conclusions and issue

772
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: new verdicts. They would not actually need to interview any

773
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 1: of these prisoners to do this, of course, as in

774
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 1: the Terror, Berria gave his men a quota. In all,

775
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 1: ninety seven percent of the nearly fifteen thousand Poles and

776
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: various camps were put to death, along with six thousand

777
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: Polish officers held in prisons and another thirteen hundred and

778
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: five who were arrested in April of nineteen forty. This

779
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: was disguised until the last moment, with prisoners who were

780
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: evacuated being told that they would be sent back to

781
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 1: their homes. It's likely many of them realized something was fishy,

782
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: but there was little to do but queue up for

783
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: the buses. And trains that eventually took them to a

784
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: train station. Snyder continues quote there they found themselves disembarking

785
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: from the train into a cordon of NKVD soldiers with

786
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 1: bayonets fixed. About thirty of them at a time. Entered

787
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 1: a bus which took them to the Goat Hills at

788
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: the edge of a forest called Caton. There, at an

789
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,280
Speaker 1: NKVD resort, they were searched and their valuables taken. One officer,

790
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: Adam Soulski, had been keeping a diary up to this moment.

791
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: They asked about my wedding ring. The prisoners were taken

792
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: into a building on the complex, where they were shot.

793
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: Their bodies were then delivered, probably by truck, in batches

794
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,479
Speaker 1: of thirty to a mass grave that had been dug

795
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: in the forest. This continued until all four hundred and

796
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: ten prisoners sent from Kozeltsk had been shot. The six

797
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: thousand some odd Poles held in prisons in Belarus and

798
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: Ukraine were executed indoors rather than in a field. Snyder

799
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 1: tells one hideous story of an NKVD officer shooting the shit,

800
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: just kind of bullshitting with an eighteen year old boy

801
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: while he waited for the executions to start. He asked

802
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: the kid, like, what was your job in the Polish Army?

803
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: The kid says telephone operator. He's like, how long did

804
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: you do it? The kid says six months? And then

805
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: he goes and shoots the kid in the back of

806
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: the head. Christ this kid, and in six three hundred

807
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 1: and thirteen other prisoners at least were handcuffed in a

808
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 1: soundproof sell and shot in the base of the skull.

809
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: So this is like pretty bad stuff.

810
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: You know, it's not good being uh you know, it's

811
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 2: the NKVD found him guilty of high crime in the

812
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 2: Soviet Union, which is being Polish, being a Polish dude. Yeah.

813
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: Now, one of Barry's main triggerman is a guy named

814
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 1: the Silly Blokin Vasilly had been an MKVD executioner during

815
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: the terror and he had done the deed on some

816
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: of the highest ranking prisoners that were purged. Today, Blooken

817
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: holds the official Guinness World Record for most prolific official executioner.

818
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 2: I checked out what's a high ward? What a high honor?

819
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 2: And did he escape being purged himself?

820
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: He does, I think eventually get purged, you know, honestly,

821
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: I don't have that on here. I probably should have,

822
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 1: but I what I do have on here Joe I

823
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: found his official Guinness website page for his his world record.

824
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 1: And boy howdy does the website design of the Guinness

825
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,399
Speaker 1: website seem inappropriate for hosting an article about this guy?

826
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 1: Check this shit out, souff. He's got to put the

827
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 1: most Prolific Official exit. They didn't even capitalize every the

828
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 1: first letter and every word of that.

829
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 2: Oh my god, what is this? What is this title?

830
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 2: It's like it's like most Prolific Official Executioner above, like

831
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 2: an image that's just like a cut of like the

832
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 2: tallest man in the world. Yeah, people like the biggest

833
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 2: bad photoshop a lady with long fingernails, a guy balancing

834
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,439
Speaker 2: a bike on his chin. Meanwhile, no picture of him?

835
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 2: What's it like? This are what is happening? Yeah? He's

836
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:20,439
Speaker 2: a stinky leg right, he's doing this? Thank you. It's

837
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 2: fucking incredible. This is one of those records that, like

838
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 2: Guinness wouldn't have up anymore for fear of someone attempting

839
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 2: to break it, But like this one, I think I

840
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 2: feel like we're safe on this one.

841
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 1: Because you note that Joe immediately after This pretty grotesque

842
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 1: graphic comes the note this record is currently inactive and

843
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 1: no applications are being accepted for it. They closed this one.

844
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 2: And here I thought Jeremy Renner would finally beat a

845
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: Guinness World record. We don't know what he's doing spare time.

846
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 2: This could have been his. Ah. God, that is sad, though, folks.

847
00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 2: I know it.

848
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: Someone at home has a dream to be the Sillies

849
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 1: record and I am sorry, but the Guinness people have

850
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 1: made up their minds.

851
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 2: Some poor civil servant that works for the state of

852
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 2: Texas immediately got let down. There's a postal worker driving

853
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 2: around listening to this show who's just like, a rats,

854
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:15,720
Speaker 2: damn it because I have to go back to growing

855
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:16,839
Speaker 2: my fingernails now.

856
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: It would not if you're paying for your own bullets.

857
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: This is not a cheap world record to meet because

858
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 1: they estimate this guy's kill total at some seven thousand people,

859
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: so you.

860
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,720
Speaker 2: Can't do that anymore these days.

861
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: WHOA, Yeah, he's an interesting guy vacilly. He wears a

862
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 1: leather cap apron and long gloves to keep clean. He

863
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: uses German pistols. If you're got a mass execute people,

864
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 1: you're gonna want a German handgun.

865
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 2: Right, so you certainly don't want a Russian times. No,

866
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 2: you definitely don't want a Russian one, right. You know,

867
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 2: in nineteen eleven probably would have been great for field executions,

868
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 2: but I understand maybe they were hard to find. I'm

869
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 2: guessing a Mauser pretty reasonable gun to use for that

870
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 2: at this period of time, small caliber, less splattered. He

871
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 2: is wearing an apron. The man is well prepared, he

872
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 2: has his Merit badge in preparedness. You have to assume

873
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 2: he was good at this, right, Yeah, otherwise you have

874
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:10,919
Speaker 2: been fired after like I don't know, A doesn't.

875
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 1: No, No, he keeps doing this and he's during this

876
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 1: massacre of these Polish officers. He's in just other soldiers.

877
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: It's not all officers. He's going to execute about two

878
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty men each night personally.

879
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 2: Which is a lot.

880
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a lot of dudes to shoot on your own.

881
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 2: He's going to get a repetitive stress injury and his

882
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 2: trigger finger, he gets a fucking carpal tunnel. He used

883
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 2: to wear one of those little risk guard things before

884
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 2: he goes to bed at night, gets like whatever their

885
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 2: purple heart is for repetitive stress injuries. In the field

886
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 2: of genocide. Yeah, Christ's that's good, that's nice. It's really

887
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 2: sad that he probably survives World War two, right, Like,

888
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 2: that's unfortunate. I think, well, yeah, you know what, I'll

889
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 2: edit that in here when I look it up. But first, Joe,

890
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 2: you know what, I don't have to edit my love

891
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 2: for these products and services. I'm really glad that your

892
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 2: ad finally sold me the proper risk support I need

893
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 2: for pulling the trigger hundreds of times. Yes, yeah, Look,

894
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 2: if you're going to be like the silly bloken, you

895
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 2: need a wrist brace. It's just irresponsible to kill seven

896
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 2: thousand men without one. He makes it to fifty three. Oh,

897
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 2: that motherfucker, he makes it. He did the end of Stalin, Yeah,

898
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,720
Speaker 2: he does, he does. He's forcibly retired after Stalin dies.

899
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 2: He gets stripped of his rank during the destolinization process

900
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 2: by Khrushchev. And then it does seem like he dies,

901
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 2: maybe just as a result of being super unhealthy and sick.

902
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 2: He kills himself officially execution. It may have been a

903
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 2: heart attack, and yeah, well, the only person who can

904
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 2: kill me is me, the guy who knows how to

905
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 2: do with the best.

906
00:45:57,440 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say, living to sixty when you're this

907
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 1: guy is not bad. Yeah, I mean it's bad because

908
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,280
Speaker 1: he's bad. But that's impressive for the guy who shoots

909
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 1: seven thousand.

910
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,320
Speaker 2: Normally, the death squad guy isn't the one that survives

911
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 2: this long. No. No, that's a good span for the

912
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:20,280
Speaker 2: death squad guy. The stars that burn the brightest, burning fast. Yeah.

913
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 1: So, while all of these prisoners are still alive, Barry

914
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 1: had allowed them to communicate with their families, like send

915
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,720
Speaker 1: letters back and forth, not out of humanity, but because

916
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: again he's about to do another crime against humanity. He

917
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: wants to collect the names and addresses of their family members.

918
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 1: And after he executes all of these people, he takes

919
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: the friends and family that they had been communicating with

920
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: and he rounds them up and deports them to Kazakhstan.

921
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: This winds up being something like sixty something thousand people,

922
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 1: and in in KVD transport documents they're described as family

923
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: members have quote former people.

924
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 2: Oh god. This is around the same time the Soviet

925
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 2: Support Law large numbers of Chechens and Dahkistani's to Kazakhstan.

926
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: A lot of deportations are happening right at this time,

927
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: right This is kind of the This is kind of

928
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:13,280
Speaker 1: like he's sort of breaking the seal on doing mass deportations.

929
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: And Baria is the mass deportation guy because he's good

930
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 1: at logistics, right, Like he's brutal for a lot of

931
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,760
Speaker 1: people are dying during this, but he's good at moving

932
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,919
Speaker 1: lots of people, you know. And again, I probably don't

933
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 1: have to labor on the fact that this is a

934
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 1: miserable situation for the people being deported. These evacuees, to

935
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 1: use the Nazi term, were not properly cared for or fed.

936
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: They were put to an unfamiliar land, They were separated

937
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: from their homes and their support networks, and thousands of

938
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: them die. Their situation is so bad that on May twentieth,

939
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: nineteen forty, a group of these Polish children write Stalin

940
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,760
Speaker 1: a fawning letter, swearing, please Stalin, we will be loyal

941
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: Communists and then begging it's hard to live without our fathers.

942
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 2: So that's bleak. I really hope Barria doesn't read that

943
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 2: and he's like, okay, well I'll send you to your fathers.

944
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 2: Then that is how Barria would read that letter.

945
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's probably good that he didn't get access to this. Now,

946
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: these NKVD executioners and the guys who manage the deportations,

947
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 1: Barria does make sure they get a cash bonus, you know,

948
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:15,720
Speaker 1: because he's a good boss.

949
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 2: At least.

950
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 1: You had mentioned the other deportations. There's a lot of them.

951
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: In March of nineteen forty, Barria had ordered the deportation

952
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 1: of any Poles who refused a Soviet passport, arguing that

953
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 1: they had rejected the Soviet system. Now there are good

954
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: reasons to not want this passport, because this passport, and

955
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: this passport system is pretty new at the time, lists

956
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: your ethnicity, and that had been used to target members

957
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: of national groups.

958
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:41,439
Speaker 2: Right.

959
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: The vast majority of people deported in this first wave

960
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: of deportations are Jewish refugees who had fled to Eastern

961
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,839
Speaker 1: Poland from Western Poland, making the best choice they could

962
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 1: at the time, which is like, well, the Communists are

963
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: probably better for us than the Nazis, right, And then it's.

964
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 2: A rough choice to have to make. It's not a lot.

965
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,439
Speaker 1: It's not like as much better as you'd hope, right,

966
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 1: because the Nazis are going to try to kill everybody,

967
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: and Barry is just going to force all of these

968
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,760
Speaker 1: people further to the east, where a lot of them died,

969
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: but not all of them, right, And.

970
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 2: The Soviet passport, by the way, never takes your ethnicity

971
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 2: off of it the entire length of the Soviet Union.

972
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 1: No, that is always a major thing, and it's going

973
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 1: to be. There's also a lot of these guys who

974
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,359
Speaker 1: are like Western Polish Jews are like, well, we're not

975
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: we're refugees. We had to flee here to not die.

976
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: But like, I'm not a Soviet citizen. I don't want

977
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 1: to be a Soviet citizen, right, I want to go

978
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: back home at some point, which is why they you know,

979
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 1: but that's seen as like a sign that they're not

980
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 1: reliable of disloyalty, rather than a pretty normal response to

981
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: the situation that they're in right.

982
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 2: Now.

983
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: That said, you know, at least a lot of these

984
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,760
Speaker 1: people do survive, and maybe they wouldn't have, probably wouldn't

985
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 1: have if they'd stayed in Western Poland.

986
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 2: You know. So I don't know, I don't know where

987
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 2: you want to like place, it's a rough time. It's

988
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 2: like trying to pick which kind of shit is the

989
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 2: best or in the right.

990
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, at least maybe you live through this kind of shit,

991
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 1: you know. Now, at the same time Barry is managing

992
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 1: all these mass deportations, they get much broader than this.

993
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: Right again, a lot of not too long from now,

994
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: a lot of Chechens are going to be deported like this.

995
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 1: This is a pretty widespread program. Barry is also presiding

996
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 1: over the vast expansion of the Gulag system. Now, Gulag

997
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 1: is an acronym and it stands for main Administration of

998
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 1: Corrective labor Colonies. But you know, whatever that is in Russian,

999
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:39,240
Speaker 1: you know, I don't speak it. By March of nineteen forty,

1000
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,720
Speaker 1: as Barria expelled Jewish refugees from West Poland, the Gulag

1001
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 1: system included about fifty three full camps, four hundred twenty

1002
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: five corrective labor colonies, and fifty colonies for children. In total,

1003
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 1: I think something like one point six to one point

1004
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: seven million people are intermed.

1005
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 2: Those numbers have a little flex right, everybody knows, like

1006
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 2: a good for any good empire is to have prison

1007
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,959
Speaker 2: colonies for children. Yeah, that puts you on the right

1008
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 2: side of history. And there's no debating that.

1009
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, why wouldn't you want camps just for little kids

1010
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 1: to be forcibly separated from their families.

1011
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,839
Speaker 2: Their little fingers can get into machinery, right, right, right

1012
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 2: that you have. I mean, that is kind of where

1013
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 2: this goes, because like any sort of large scale labor

1014
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 2: camp program, these are largely an economic incentive, right, Like,

1015
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 2: that's why what the gulag system is in large degree. Now,

1016
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,400
Speaker 2: some historians like Alex Nov will argue that you should

1017
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 2: include people in prisons and so called NKVD special settlements

1018
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 2: as well in the number of people in gulags. If

1019
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 2: you do that, it brings the number of human beings

1020
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 2: incarcerated under Barria's nominal supervision to something like three and

1021
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 2: a half million by the outbreak of war. Again, it's

1022
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 2: debated how you should consider this. One Soviet source puts

1023
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,240
Speaker 2: the number. It is still terrifying, two point three million.

1024
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 2: This is a lot of nation number, and larger than

1025
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 2: several Soviet satellite countries. Yeah.

1026
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a significant amount of people are in various

1027
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: camps and prisons that Barria is running. And the gulags

1028
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 1: are not death camps, right. Most people who are in

1029
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 1: turn there do survive, and that's important because these are

1030
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: not the same as what the Nazis are doing.

1031
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 2: But they are not good. Right, you know.

1032
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 1: A death camp, right, right. The goal is not to

1033
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: wholesale exterminate populations, but that's really the only nice thing

1034
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 1: you can say about them, right. A lot of people

1035
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: still die there. Between thirty four and fifty three, probably

1036
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 1: about a million people die in gulags.

1037
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 2: This is debated. It's not a small number though, right.

1038
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 2: I think numbers are quite unreliable. It's not like they're

1039
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 2: keeping tracks how many people that died, right, right, You're

1040
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 2: not going to get a precise count. And how deadly

1041
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 2: these places are varies based on what's happening in the

1042
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 2: rest of the US. Are in with the war, Right,

1043
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:05,760
Speaker 2: During the worst years of the gulag system, some accounts

1044
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 2: will say, like a twenty five percent mortality rate, right,

1045
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 2: it was usually under ten percent. Now, both of those

1046
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 2: are bad, right, those is a good situation. I'm not

1047
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 2: trying to mitigate it. But all it changes in terms

1048
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 2: of how deadly it is based on what else is

1049
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 2: going on right right now. And again, when I say

1050
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 2: the purpose of these gulogs is not to eliminate people,

1051
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 2: it's because the purpose is to profit from their labor,

1052
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:30,879
Speaker 2: and you can really only do that if they're well

1053
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 2: enough to work, or at least if most of them

1054
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 2: are right. And I'm going to continue with a quote

1055
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,320
Speaker 2: from Amy Knight's book here. The most important economic activity

1056
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 2: of the NKVD was construction of roads, railways, waterways, and

1057
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,320
Speaker 2: power stations. Some projects were undertaken directly by the NKVD

1058
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,720
Speaker 2: and some by Gulog workers contracted out to other commissariates.

1059
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 2: Mining of gold and nonferest metals and lumbering were other

1060
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 2: key areas of production for the Gulag. To have such

1061
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 2: a vast economic enterprise under his control was an awesome

1062
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,399
Speaker 2: responsibility for Barria, though he left the a to day

1063
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 2: administration to his lieutenants. According to most accounts, Barria's group

1064
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 2: was more effective in the utilization of camp labor than

1065
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:09,799
Speaker 2: Yezov's had been. In an effort to raise productivity and

1066
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 2: more rationally exploit forced labor, Barria improved physical conditions in

1067
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 2: the camps and increased food supplies. As a result, camp

1068
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 2: death rates declined from what they were under Azov, and

1069
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:23,320
Speaker 2: forced labor became a more productive element of the national economy,

1070
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 2: so you could argue compared to how they had been

1071
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 2: under his predecessor. Broadly speaking, Gulags are less deadly and

1072
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 2: miserable under Barria. And this is pretty consistent with how

1073
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 2: he treats, for example, captured Nazi scientists, not out of

1074
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 2: the goodness of his heart, because he needs work from them, right,

1075
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 2: And he's good at logistics. He's like, well, people who

1076
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 2: are starving to death don't work as well, and I

1077
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 2: want them to produce economic value for me, right, the

1078
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 2: animal of arithmetic, you.

1079
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 1: Know, exactly, exactly, And again these are still not nice places.

1080
00:54:56,640 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 1: In nineteen forty one, and internal report showed that prisoners

1081
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 1: that the Gulogs lacked soap, water, clothing, and food, and

1082
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 1: were often made to work twelve hour shifts with regularity.

1083
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,919
Speaker 2: If you're building roads for sixteen hours, right, why would

1084
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 2: you need soap? You know? Yeah.

1085
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: In October of nineteen forty one, nearly fifteen hundred people

1086
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 1: died at just two in KVD railway construction camps. Former

1087
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:25,319
Speaker 1: Gulag prisoner Antov antonov Ovsenko later described Barrio's influence on

1088
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 1: the Gulags this way. The Gulags existed before Barria, but

1089
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 1: he was the one who built them on a mass scale.

1090
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 1: He industrialized the Gulag system. Human life had no value

1091
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 1: for him, and you know, human life didn't, labor did.

1092
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:43,840
Speaker 1: But later you give him a lot of credit for that, right, Yeah,

1093
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 1: of course, of course that's the point is like, it's

1094
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 1: not that he made the gulogs more humane, as he

1095
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: made them more efficient, right, he made them work better,

1096
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 1: you know, because why wouldn't you in his situation? But

1097
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 1: you know what works really well, Joe? Oh no, you

1098
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 1: as a podcast host and author, you want to tell

1099
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 1: people where they can find your work.

1100
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 2: Uh yeah. I am the host of the Lines led

1101
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 2: by Donkeys podcast. We talked about military history, disasters, and

1102
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,840
Speaker 2: also occasionally assholes like Barrier. We also did a series

1103
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 2: on the Winter War, and we did a series in

1104
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 2: the Battle of Stalingrad and several other things that are

1105
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 2: loosely connected to this topic. I'm also an author. I'm

1106
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,479
Speaker 2: currently in the middle of writing a military science fiction

1107
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 2: trilogy and you can find it anywhere you find your books.

1108
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 2: It's called The Undying Legion.

1109
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, check out The Undying Legion. Check out the

1110
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:41,959
Speaker 1: Lions led by Donkeys podcast. And look, if you ever

1111
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 1: want to start a system of forced labor camps, I

1112
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:50,920
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe have a sandwich instead. See if fixing

1113
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 1: your blood sugar. Maybe it makes you less want to

1114
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:56,879
Speaker 1: run a series of labor camps. I thought I wanted

1115
00:56:57,719 --> 00:56:59,760
Speaker 1: this labor camp system. It turned out my blood.

1116
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 2: Shirt was well, I'm just getting out hungry. I had

1117
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 2: some fruit loops.

1118
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 1: Feeling a lot better now, to be honest, guys, if

1119
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:11,759
Speaker 1: only anyway, everybody go to Hell.

1120
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 2: I Love you. Behind the Bastards is a production of

1121
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 2: cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit

1122
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 2: our website coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on

1123
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.