1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 2 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 2: Well, Elon Muski is now the richest person on the planet. 3 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 3: More than half the satellites in space are owned and 4 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 3: controlled by one man. 5 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 4: Well, he's a legitimate super genius. I mean legitimate. 6 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:26,319 Speaker 5: He says. 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 6: He's always voted for Democrats, but this year it will 8 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 6: be different. 9 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 5: He'll vote Republican. 10 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: There is a reason the US government is so reliant 11 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: on him. 12 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 3: Elon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 13 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 4: Anything he does, he's fascinating to people. Welcome to Elon Inc. 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 4: Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. It's May twenty first, 15 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 4: and I'm your host, Joel Webber, covering for David Papadopolos. 16 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 4: Today we're going to talk about Tooth, Bloomberg BusinessWeek's exclusive 17 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 4: with the first Neuralink patient, Noland Arba. He has a 18 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 4: pretty remarkable story becoming a human cyborg, but already things 19 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 4: aren't going quite as planned. In a bit, we'll hear 20 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 4: from Ashley Vance, who interviewed Noland, and Sarah McBride, who 21 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 4: covers the startup for Bloomberg Technology. But first, how do 22 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,919 Speaker 4: you buy SpaceX investing in a private company let alone 23 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 4: the most highly valued unicorn in America is among the 24 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 4: most difficult missions around, and we have a guide for 25 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,839 Speaker 4: the galaxy's most determined investors. Joining us for that crazy 26 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 4: mission is Lauren Grush, who covers space for Bloomberg News. 27 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 4: Hello Lauren, thank you. And Kyle Porter, who wrote about 28 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 4: investing in SpaceX and the new issue of Bloomberg Markets Magazine. 29 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 4: Hello Kyle, thanks for having us. Joe, Kyle, I'll start 30 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 4: with you. Elon Musk's startup is privately held and has 31 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,639 Speaker 4: a valuation of about one hundred and eighty billion dollars. 32 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 4: It's obviously hard to buy shares, but is it impossible? 33 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 5: No, it's not totally impossible, and they don't advertise for 34 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 5: you how to do it. But if you read our 35 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 5: helpful explainer or have you know a very expensive wealth manager, 36 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 5: you can get in. 37 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 4: Okay, how much money do I need? 38 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,799 Speaker 5: Well, there might be a couple of exceptions if you're 39 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 5: doing it friends to friends, but for the most part, 40 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 5: you're going to need to be an accredited investor, and 41 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 5: that's somebody who for the last two years has earned 42 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 5: income of north of two hundred thousand dollars. Or if 43 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 5: you're a married couple three hundred thousand dollars, or you 44 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 5: have a networth above a million dollars which does not 45 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 5: include your primary home. 46 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 4: Okay, so have I got fifty bucks in a Robinhood account? 47 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 4: This is not for me. 48 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 5: No, it's not going to happen for you. What's interesting 49 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 5: is that, you know, accredited investors have become an increasingly 50 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 5: large part. 51 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: Of the market. 52 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 5: The actual accreditation was developed in the nineteen eighties when 53 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 5: it affected about one percent of the population. Now about 54 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 5: twenty million households can be classes of credited investors just 55 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 5: through inflationary drag. 56 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 4: Lauren, why would anyone want to own a privately held 57 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 4: startup And there's a word for startups like this who 58 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 4: have massive valuations and are still private, which is unicorn. 59 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 4: This is not a typical retail space. But why would 60 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 4: any investor want to have some exposure? 61 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 7: I would say for two reasons. One, when it comes 62 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 7: to SpaceX specifically, I think there's a lot of excitement 63 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 7: around starlink. So the idea that you know, maybe eventually 64 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 7: this will become a multi billion dollar business and that 65 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,679 Speaker 7: will pay out, and that will be kind of more 66 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 7: of a typical consumer business that would have a return 67 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 7: for investors. And then I think also the second reason 68 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 7: is just the cult of Elon, you know, having some 69 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 7: kind of stake in one of his companies I think 70 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 7: has an amendous, tremendous draw for a lot of people. 71 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 4: What are the risks though, because you know, private market 72 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 4: means there's no liquidity that a normal you know, publicly 73 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 4: traded company would really have. Right, so so what does 74 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 4: what does that look like? What are the risks for investors? 75 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 7: Well, I think the risks are it's still not very 76 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 7: proven that launching rockets and being in the space business 77 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 7: is actually a profitably sustainable enterprise. 78 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 4: Right. 79 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 7: All we have is a lot of what Elon tells us. 80 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 7: I mean, we don't have a really hard look into 81 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 7: SpaceX's financials. They tell us they are profitable, they tell 82 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 7: us they have money in the bank, but they are 83 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 7: also dumping a ton of money into research and development 84 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 7: and also to create you know, massive rockets like Starship. 85 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 7: They're still putting a tremendous amount of money into Starlink. 86 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 7: And when we when we have seen space companies go public, 87 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 7: we haven't seen a lot of great you know profitability there. 88 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 7: It's it's a very tough business to make work. You 89 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 7: have to put in a ton of upfront capital, you 90 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 7: spend years creating you know, these systems, and then there's 91 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 7: really no guarantee that you're going to get enough customers 92 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 7: that makes it work long term. So I think that 93 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 7: that is the risk. And when it comes to SpaceX, 94 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 7: you know, they seem to have broken the mold and 95 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 7: has shown that they can do it. But it remains 96 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 7: to be seen if that can be replicated or if 97 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 7: SpaceX is as profitable as they say they are. 98 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 4: Kyle, what do we know about the demand for something 99 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 4: like SpaceX shares? 100 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 5: Oh, it's huge primary tender office were ever subscribed? There 101 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 5: are people queuing around the block to get into this company, 102 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 5: which is good news because they have burned an awful 103 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 5: lot of cash at the moment getting these rockets into 104 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 5: the air. It's part of the reason, in my humble opinion, 105 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 5: why they're not public yet. They don't have to disclose 106 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 5: that much information and they're still getting the money. I mean, 107 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 5: what company wouldn't won that situation. 108 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 4: Okay, say I've got six figures and I want to play. 109 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 4: What are my options? What kind of shares are available even? 110 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 4: And how would you recommend that I, you know, blast 111 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 4: into space here. 112 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 5: I mean, there's a few different things you can do, 113 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 5: and a lot of it would depend on how much 114 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 5: money you really have. If you're in the ten million 115 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 5: plus club, you know your private banker at Morgan Stanley 116 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 5: or RBS is going to know a guy who can 117 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 5: get you in. And you know, the perfect type of 118 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 5: share that you'd want to buy ideally is something that's direct, 119 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 5: it's vested, and it gets you on the shareholder registry. 120 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 5: You're not going to pay a fee for that twenty 121 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 5: third party to hold it, and you know you're going 122 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 5: to be in front of the queue just in case 123 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 5: anything does go wrong and you know there's a down 124 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 5: rating or anything else. But those things are very hard 125 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 5: to find. 126 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 4: Like basically, it's like very early investors or maybe former employees, right, 127 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:31,559 Speaker 4: those are the exact chance. 128 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 5: Yes, very much so. I mean the company is getting 129 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 5: on for over twenty years old now, so there are 130 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 5: those type of shares floating around. But SpaceX, as it's 131 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 5: gotten bigger and more successful and has frankly raised a 132 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 5: lot more money, has started to make it much more 133 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 5: difficult for even those type of people to sell their 134 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 5: shares accept people within the company or to you know, 135 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 5: for elon eself for example, they just don't want the 136 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 5: hassle of having to update their shareholder registry and have 137 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 5: it treated like a publicly traded stock when it's not. 138 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 4: Okay, So if I can't find any former employees or 139 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 4: early investors and I don't have a wealth manager, where 140 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 4: do I go from here? 141 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 5: I mean, there's a couple of platforms that you can use. 142 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 5: So there's Hive and rain Maker Securities that you can 143 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 5: log into these apps. You can give them your information, 144 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 5: prove you're an incredited investor. Once you've dotted the ice 145 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 5: and cross the t's, you can look on the platform 146 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 5: and you can bid on shares. Some of them will 147 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 5: be those that we've discussed that were you know, former 148 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 5: employees or any investors, but much more common of what 149 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 5: they dubbed indirect shares, which are shares which are held 150 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 5: in special purpose vehicles that larger institutions have brought into 151 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 5: SpaceX and then they have individual backers behind those, so 152 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 5: SpaceX can't really see when those shares are trading hands. 153 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 4: Okay, So I've got money to burn, what do I do, Kyle? 154 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 4: I want to invest in SpaceX. What do I do? 155 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 5: See, you don't quite have the money, you're not accredited. 156 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 5: You can there's public trading funds you can look at. 157 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 5: Baron Funds has six vehicles that have exposure to SpaceX. 158 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 4: So even though it's a private company, these mutual funds 159 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 4: have exposure. 160 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 5: Yes, and they've worked out ways that they can manage 161 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 5: v NAV risk without getting to technical and because they 162 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 5: form a relatively small part of the company's overall capital structure, 163 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 5: it's okay, particularly when the numbers are going up. So 164 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 5: for a Baron front you and you need two thousand 165 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 5: dollars or even less if you're going to make a 166 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 5: regular monthly contribution, and that will give you exposure to 167 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 5: the company. Fidelity is another example through many of their 168 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 5: mutual funds have at least a minor exposure to SpaceX. 169 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 5: But it's not quite the same as saying you own 170 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 5: a piece of the company. 171 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 4: Okay, and what if I don't have that much money, 172 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 4: what do I do? What do I do? 173 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: Then? 174 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 5: If you want to just play with space there's other 175 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 5: things you can do. There's publicly traded companies that are 176 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 5: literally space companies. You can go and look at like 177 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 5: biasat there's suppliers to companies like SpaceX that have gone 178 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 5: up massively in the past year or so, in some 179 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 5: cases more than doubling in price. You can go to Gramport. 180 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 4: So basically I have to resign myself to not owning 181 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 4: SpaceX and take the sector and companies in this sector 182 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 4: and hopefully get some exposure to space in the space economy. 183 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 7: That way, Joel, I have another option for you. You 184 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 7: can go to the SpaceX merch store and buy SpaceX. 185 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 4: Okay elon known for some merch I'll have to check 186 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,839 Speaker 4: that one out. So there's SpaceX, which is rockets, and 187 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,839 Speaker 4: then there's Starlink, which is satellite internet. Right, there has 188 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 4: been some speculation that Starlink could IPO independently of SpaceX. 189 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 4: What would that mean if you happen to own SpaceX shares. 190 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 5: That's a really good question. What typically happens in a 191 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 5: spinoff situation, assuming you've got growth and a lot of 192 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 5: investor support in the company, is there will be a 193 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 5: valuation placed on the spinout business and you will be 194 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 5: given the option to spread your shares, convert your shares, 195 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 5: or take either greater amount of percentage holding in SpaceX 196 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 5: as a resort of foregoing an option to be in starlink. 197 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 5: If the business isn't going, or one of them is 198 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 5: and going quite as well as they'd hoped, there may 199 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 5: be a cash plus share option put into that, or 200 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 5: if it's going straight for a float, there'll be a 201 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 5: value percentage put on both those businesses, and then you 202 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 5: will be recompensed at the eventual initial public offering. And 203 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 5: depending on what type of SpaceX share you have, maybe 204 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 5: it's preferred, maybe it's a regular, and we don't know 205 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 5: how many there are. Either of those, you'll be at 206 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 5: the front of the queue and your share will be 207 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 5: worth slightly more or slightly less compared to the next 208 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 5: guy in the road. 209 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 4: And do we think it's likely that that starlink could 210 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 4: IPO separately and before SpaceX what do you think, Lauren? 211 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 7: Yes, if there's any IPO happening when it comes to SpaceX, 212 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 7: it they've been very clear it would be a spin 213 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 7: off starlink venture. I don't think Elon wants to take 214 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 7: the entirety of SpaceX public. You have to remember also 215 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 7: that there's a bit of you know, Elon ideology wrapped 216 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 7: into this, right. SpaceX is goal the entire goal of 217 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 7: the company is to eventually get to Mars, and so 218 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 7: I think for him kind of keeping that really close 219 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 7: to the chest is very important. But yes, it would 220 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 7: I think it would definitely be Starlink. You know, as 221 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 7: Kyle and I have reported, they're preparing for an IPO 222 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 7: and having different servers, you know, different tools and hardware 223 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 7: that they use separate from the rest of the company 224 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 7: to work on Starlink initiatives. But when it comes to 225 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 7: that timeline, you know, they've even said publicly that until 226 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 7: their profits are consistent and it is a consistent business, 227 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 7: they're not going to take it public, and so you know, 228 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 7: who knows when that will happen. They keep telling us, 229 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 7: you know, that this that they're going to be making 230 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 7: more money and be cash flow positive, but as we've seen, 231 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 7: you know, that's just taking a little while to come 232 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 7: to fruition. 233 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 4: All right, Lauren Kyle, thank you both so much for 234 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 4: joining us on elon Thank you, thank you, and now 235 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 4: we're joined by Ashley Vance and Sarah McBride. Welcome back 236 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 4: to elon Ink. 237 00:11:57,920 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: Both of you, thank you. Thanks. 238 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 4: Actually, you really cover a story about Neuralink for Bloomberg 239 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 4: Business Week last November, before human trials began. Now you're 240 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 4: back with a sequel, an exclusive with the first patient 241 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 4: who is paralyzed in a fluke accident a few years 242 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 4: ago before we hear about his story. Can you remind 243 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 4: us what is Neuralink trying to do? 244 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the basic idea, there's sort of a sci 245 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 2: fi idea that Elon has in mind. And then what's 246 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 2: happening now. What's happening now is the company makes a 247 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 2: brain implant that does require somebody to have surgery, have 248 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 2: their skull cut into and this implant is put in 249 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 2: the patient's head. It has these threads, these kind of 250 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 2: wires that dangle down from the implant and go into 251 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 2: the brain, and these read the signals that your brain 252 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 2: produces as your neurons fire. Software translates those signals then 253 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 2: into two actions, intentions that can be conveyed to a computer. 254 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 2: So you know, at the moment, this is being used 255 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 2: for people who are in pretty dire medical state. The 256 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 2: person we're going to talk about is paralyzed and he 257 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 2: can think what he wants to do on a computer 258 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 2: and all of those neurons firing, and software translate that 259 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 2: into actions on a computer. A cursor moves around on 260 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 2: the computer and does what he intended. 261 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: And so this is the first use of Neuralink in 262 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: the future. 263 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 2: Obviously, Elon's talked about he wants the general public to 264 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 2: have these implants to create some sort of meld between 265 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 2: humans and machines. 266 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,559 Speaker 4: Before Elon and Neuralink can do any of that, they 267 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 4: need to wade through some human trials. Patient number one 268 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 4: is a young man named Nolan Arba. What was his 269 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 4: life like before the accident that left him paralyze and 270 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 4: what's it been like since. 271 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: Yes, Nolan is he's a thirty year old guy. He 272 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: lives in Yuma, Arizona. 273 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 2: He was paralyzed when he was twenty two in just 274 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 2: a really tragic diving accident, just total horrible luck. He 275 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 2: was playing with some friends in a lake, dove into 276 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 2: the water. He's still not actually sure exactly what happened, 277 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 2: but he got hit in the side of his head. 278 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 2: It dislocated his spine and he's paralyzed from the neck down. 279 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 2: So for the last eight years he's had to come 280 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 2: to terms with life as someone who's paralyzed. He's got 281 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 2: a wheelchair that's robotic that helps him get around most 282 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 2: of the time. If he wants to use a computer, 283 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 2: he has to put a stick in his mouth and 284 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 2: tap away on an iPad at the icons, and you know, 285 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 2: it's very limited what he can do. The last eight 286 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 2: years have been really frustrating for him. You know, he 287 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 2: was a healthy, athletic guy. All of that was taken away. 288 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: This has been expensive for the family. They're not who's 289 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 2: caring for him too, right, right, they care for him, 290 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 2: They're not that well off, and so he's kind of 291 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 2: felt like a burden and he's you know, he hasn't 292 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 2: been able to chase all these goals and dreams that 293 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 2: he had before the accident. 294 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 4: Sarah, why Nolan? How did he get picked? 295 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 3: Well, this was a clinical trial. It's still ongoing, and 296 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 3: anytime a compan that's making a device as a clinical trial, 297 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 3: they kind of put out a call. 298 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: They usually have. 299 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 3: A very specific set of criteria. It sounds like they 300 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 3: were actively looking for people who were paralyzed, people under 301 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 3: a certain age, and out of what they say was 302 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 3: just a boatload of applicants, thousands of applicants, they picked Nolan. 303 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it was September of last year. Neuralink 304 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 2: kind of put out this call for applicants. Nolan applied 305 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 2: on the very first day. His friend had seen this 306 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 2: call and encouraged Nolan to get into it. By you know, 307 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 2: the next day, Neuralink was already ringing him doing interviews 308 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 2: over the phone. By October he was at a hospital 309 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 2: having some other medical tests, and then by January he 310 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 2: was getting this implant. 311 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 4: We actually have some clips that you brought back from 312 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 4: your interview with Nolan. Norlink, like all of Elon Musk's companies, 313 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 4: is synonymous with its owner. Here's what Nolan thought aboutout 314 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 4: Elon before this experience. It's also worth mentioning that no 315 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 4: One and his family have a number of farm animals, 316 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 4: including a very loud rooster that you're about to hear from. 317 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 6: Because a lot of people look at him like, oh, 318 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 6: he's willing to do whatever to admit progress, And I 319 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 6: look at him like he actually does and everything he 320 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 6: does is for like better in humanity, and I think 321 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 6: that's something people don't give him enough credit for. And 322 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 6: so when I see him like caring so much about 323 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 6: like humanity, like in our progress, and then also just 324 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 6: these few people that he set up in a rocket 325 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 6: like it made me feel like he would not do 326 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 6: this if he felt like it was. 327 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 4: Going down badly death. Actually, can I ask about the 328 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 4: menagerie of farm animals? What was your favorite animal there? 329 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 4: I heard a Broos shirt a couple of times. 330 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 2: There's a lot going on, many birds. My favorite animals were, 331 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 2: for sure the Nigerian dwarf goats. They've got a lot 332 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 2: of playground equipment they could climb on and a tree 333 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 2: and they were really they were getting up there. 334 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: But yeah, they got a lot going on in their backyard. 335 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 4: Okay, So I have to ask was being an Elon 336 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 4: super fan a prerequisite for having this implant? 337 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: I don't think it was for neuralake. 338 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 2: I think it probably helped get Nolan, you know, to 339 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 2: say yes to this procedure. We talked at length, you know, 340 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 2: a bunch of his friends tried to talk him out 341 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 2: of it. Obviously, there's been a lot of stories about 342 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 2: how Neuralinks done these animal trials on monkeys and pigs 343 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 2: and sheep for years. There's been a lot of stories 344 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 2: that some of those trials went badly and the animals 345 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 2: were harmed, and Nolan's friends were bringing these examples up 346 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 2: all the time. He is for sure an Elon fanboy, 347 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 2: he did, you know, kind of dig into some of this, 348 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 2: and then in the end he just decided it was 349 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 2: especially the SpaceX mission sending astronauts into space, that seemed 350 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 2: to have a big impact on him where Elon. He 351 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 2: saw an interview where Elon talked about having a sleepless 352 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 2: night before the first astronauts went up. 353 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: And praying, you know, to God. 354 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 2: Elon's not a religious man, so that really stuck with 355 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 2: Nolan and he thought, Yah, Elon's is not going to 356 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 2: do this if it's going to actually hurt me. 357 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: That was his conclusion. 358 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 4: Okay, Sarah, I want to talk about the surgery. How 359 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 4: does this go down? 360 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 3: So what happens is, at first it looks like traditional 361 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 3: brain surgery. In this case, Noland went to the Barrel 362 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 3: Institute in Phoenix, which is known for neurosurgery, and a 363 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 3: surgeon could open his skull in a procedure called the craniotomy, 364 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 3: and then the device which looks like around core devise 365 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 3: with threads going off, which is where the electrodes are. 366 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 3: So the round part of the device gets implanted in 367 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 3: the skull and then the electrodes go down into the 368 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 3: brain tissue. A sewing machine does the part of the 369 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 3: surgery that implants the electrodes into the brain tissue. So 370 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 3: it starts off looking like traditional brain surgery, and then 371 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 3: it moves into this sewing machine where the surgeon most 372 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 3: involved is actually the technician operating the sewing machine that's 373 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 3: planning the electrodes into the brain tissue. So the difference 374 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 3: between the surgeries that have been done with electrodes and 375 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 3: neuralinks is neuralink has over a thousand electrodes. Some of 376 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 3: these other techniques, you know, at most like maybe two 377 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 3: three hundred is considered a lot. So neuralinks electrodes are 378 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 3: smaller and set right up against precisely targeted individual neurons, 379 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 3: and other companies target more broad groups of neurons. So 380 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 3: that's the difference with what they're doing. It's a lot 381 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 3: more ambitious. 382 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 4: Ashley, I want to talk to you about what it 383 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 4: was like for him going into this surgery and then 384 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 4: coming out on the other side. What did that feel 385 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 4: like for Noland? 386 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, like Sarah said, you know, neuralinks surgery is 387 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 2: more invasive. The device is more powerful than ones we've 388 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 2: seen implanted like this before, and so there was the 389 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 2: huge expectation that or hope, you know, that you would 390 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 2: see much faster performance with this device. So when he 391 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 2: thinks it translates to actions on the computer more quickly 392 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 2: than other things that have been done before, that he 393 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 2: can do this in the comfort of his own home 394 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 2: instead of being in a hospital in laboratory setting, and 395 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 2: all that proved to be true. You know, he was 396 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 2: discharged from the hospital just a day after the surgery. 397 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 2: He spent sort of ten days near the hospital at 398 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 2: an airbnb under the with Neuralink people checking in on 399 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 2: and then he went home. And from the very first 400 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 2: day that he went home, he broke almost all of 401 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 2: the benchmark scores for these types of devices. So, you know, 402 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 2: it seemed to be outperforming anything that had happened before. 403 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 4: What was an example of that, like what could he 404 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 4: do after the implant that he couldn't really do before. 405 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 2: Well, so they set these benchmark scores. You have to 406 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 2: think with your brain to move a cursor around on 407 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 2: a screen and sort of there's a grid with squares 408 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 2: on it, and like one will light up as a 409 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 2: yellow square and you have to move your cursor to 410 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 2: that square as quickly as you can. And so this 411 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 2: is these are these like medical aspects of calibrating how 412 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 2: fast this device is going. Outside of that, you know, 413 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 2: he was able to pretty much anything he wanted to do. 414 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 2: If he was using like a laptop, he would have 415 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 2: to do with voice recognition. And so he likes to play, 416 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 2: you know, audible. He likes to play audio books a lot, 417 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 2: but anytime he wanted to do anything else on his computer, 418 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 2: he'd have to stop the audiobook, issue another voice command 419 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 2: and hop around. Now he's got like an audiobook playing, 420 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 2: and while he's sitting there talking to you with the 421 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 2: audiobook playing, he just uses his mind to go start 422 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 2: playing chess. In a different application, he goes to play 423 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 2: video games. You know, he's able to, just like all 424 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 2: the rest of us, hop from tab to tab to 425 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 2: tab on our computer. And so you know, he couldn't 426 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 2: do that before. It is there's something like magical about it. 427 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: It took me, even though I knew what was happening, 428 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 2: it took me a second to sort of realize he 429 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 2: was talking to me and using his at the same time, 430 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 2: like he was playing chess while he was just having 431 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 2: a normal conversation with me. And you know, I think, 432 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 2: like even the rest of us who multitask, it struck 433 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 2: me as unusual. 434 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 4: Okay, this is actually where the story gets even more interesting. 435 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 4: Let's play one more clip from Ashley's interview with no One. 436 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 6: Basically, what happened was like control of the cursor started 437 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 6: deteriorating a lot, and then I thought they started doing 438 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 6: different things, like I thought they were experimenting, and I 439 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 6: started like losing control of the cursor a bit. So 440 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 6: I was frustrated. I thought it was then, But then 441 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 6: when I went up to visit Neuralink to do like 442 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 6: the tour and the all hands and stuff. The day 443 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 6: of the tour and everything of the all hands, they 444 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 6: came to my hotel in the morning and they told 445 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 6: me that threats were getting pulled out of my brain 446 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,479 Speaker 6: and that's why I was using control. They don't know 447 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 6: like how serious it is really, They didn't know a 448 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 6: ton about it. 449 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 1: And so, yeah, what did you think they told you that? Yeah, 450 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: I kind of a little bit. 451 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 6: Yeah, it was really really hard to hear. I thought 452 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 6: that basically my whole journey with them was coming to 453 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 6: an end. I thought that I had gotten maybe a 454 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 6: month of use out of it, and that was going 455 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 6: to be it. 456 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 4: If you feel for him here where if you've gone 457 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 4: from being in a place to having like a glimpse 458 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 4: of a new life and then it's you slowly start 459 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 4: to lose it. So talk to us more about what's 460 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 4: happening inside his brain that has resulted in this. 461 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 3: It turns out that some of the electrodes that were 462 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 3: implanted didn't stay in place. I've since talked to neurosurgeons 463 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 3: who say that's actually not that uncommon with these brain 464 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 3: electrode surgeries, that it would be not out of the 465 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 3: ordinary for a few to jostle out of place. What 466 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 3: we don't know is if the electrode threads retracted all 467 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 3: together out of his brain tissue, or if they just 468 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 3: moved around a little bit, And if more are going 469 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 3: to go through the same process where they jostle out 470 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 3: of the spot where they're supposed to be, and what 471 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 3: the impact would be for Nolan. 472 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 2: Yes, you know, when they put these threads in, I mean, 473 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 2: there's dozens of them, and so they're they're kind of 474 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 2: they're not all in the same spot. 475 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: They're kind of scattered out through this portion of your brain. 476 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 2: And what neuralink found was that a lot more of 477 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 2: them had moved and shifted than what it had seen 478 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 2: in these animal trials previously. And so one of the 479 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 2: big hopes with this device, like we mentioned, was that 480 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 2: it was going to have this incredible performance, So you're 481 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 2: going to have the thousand plus channels of information going 482 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 2: back and forth, and so obviously that got limited quite 483 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 2: a bit. And yeah, I felt for you know, this 484 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 2: is a guy who, look, he's paralyzed. He took this 485 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 2: huge risk to mess with his brain. The brain is 486 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 2: that's like the last thing he has that's kind of 487 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 2: some sense of normalcy in his life. He was excited 488 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,719 Speaker 2: to be helping other people to be part of this trial, 489 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 2: and it was winding down pretty quick. 490 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 3: You know. 491 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: All that happened within the first month. 492 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 2: And so not only is he kind of losing what 493 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 2: felt like a superpower, it's like unclear if Neuralink's going 494 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 2: to sort of move on past him to the next 495 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 2: patient now. And so it's a very fleeting amount of 496 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 2: time to really get to enjoy and be excited about 497 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 2: this huge risk that he'd taken. 498 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 4: How much fine tuning was Neuralink able to do since they. 499 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 2: Were able over the weeks that kept going by working 500 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:48,239 Speaker 2: with him and it's essentially machine learning software. Combined with 501 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 2: him doing the practice on their training software, they were 502 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 2: able to change the algorithms to sort of read the 503 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 2: data out in different ways, and so he has gotten 504 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 2: the performance back up to where the same kind of 505 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 2: record setting performance. 506 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: He's happy. 507 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 2: He uses it all day every day, you know, he 508 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 2: uses it about ten to twelve hours a day. He 509 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 2: kind of doesn't when he's sleeping, and then it does 510 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 2: have to be recharged every now and then, so but 511 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 2: otherwise it is now just like a regular part of 512 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 2: his life and he's quite happy again. 513 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 4: Sarah, what does this mean for the industry as a whole, 514 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 4: neuralink specifically, but also the rest of what brain implants 515 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 4: and those companies who are in that space can take 516 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 4: away from what we're learning about the brain here from Noland. 517 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 3: Well, the other companies are following this very closely. A 518 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 3: lot of them sees down the news that the electrodes 519 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 3: had moved and say that there might be a fundamental 520 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 3: flaw with neuralinks technology that perhaps it shouldn't be anchored 521 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 3: within the skull. But I think that's pretty much casting 522 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 3: aspersions at this moment. We just don't know what the 523 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 3: best technology is going to be I think a lot 524 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 3: of companies are looking at Neuralink, which, if it can 525 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 3: pull off having a thousand plus electrodes working, is going 526 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 3: to be far more advanced than any existing company. So 527 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 3: I think they're excited and scared at the same time 528 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 3: that the competition if it unfolds as Neuralink once it's 529 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 3: going to be, it could have dramatic implications for people 530 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 3: who are paralyzed, people with als, maybe even Parkinson's. It 531 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 3: raises the bar for everybody. 532 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 2: Just so people know, I mean, this is like a 533 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 2: really excited year for this technology. You know, so we've 534 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 2: this has been in academia for decades. A lot of 535 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 2: these experiments have kind of been done before in much 536 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 2: more limited settings. As Sarah mentioned, you know, there's different approaches. 537 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 2: So one company is trying to go through blood vessel 538 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 2: in the brain with a very minimally invasive surgery, but 539 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 2: it doesn't have much horsepower on its device. Another wants 540 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,719 Speaker 2: to put these electrodes just like on the surface of 541 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 2: the brain. But this is like sort of the year 542 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 2: where we're going to see probably I don't know, anywhere 543 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 2: from like four to six different techniques in clinical trials 544 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 2: have a sense as to what works. I think it's 545 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 2: not like a black and white thing because people are 546 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 2: after different, different sort of end goals. It's like, can 547 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,199 Speaker 2: you help someone live a bit more of a normal 548 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 2: life and do a few more things than they currently can. Okay, 549 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 2: maybe you don't need a super invasive device to do that. 550 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 2: Neuralink wants to get to this point, you know, where 551 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,959 Speaker 2: it's doing the most dramatic advances, it's changing people's lives 552 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 2: the most dramatically. It wants to get where you can 553 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 2: link these brain implants with a spinal implant one day 554 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 2: and restore motion for people. And so there's this whole gamut. 555 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 2: But it's like an incredibly exciting time. We're going to 556 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 2: find out sort of a lot about these different approaches 557 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 2: this year. 558 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 4: And what do we know about what Elon has had 559 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 4: to say about the device in its performance with Nolan 560 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 4: so far? 561 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 2: Well, I think he was he was at the surgery, 562 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 2: He's been in communication with Nolan. 563 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: I think all along Elon was. 564 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 2: Hoping that this first patient would have an overall positive experience. 565 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 2: It takes some pressure off, I think with regulators and 566 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 2: as far as how the public is perceiving what Neuralink 567 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 2: is doing. The company has not had the best pr run, 568 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 2: to say the least over the last couple of years, 569 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 2: to have a human out there who's singing the praises 570 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 2: of this device. 571 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: Nolan's very likable. 572 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 2: He's very down to earth, he's very honest about everything, 573 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 2: and so I think that's helpful. I know Elon, you know, 574 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 2: they're quickly trying to get to patient two and three, 575 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 2: and either they're going to just go forward with this device, 576 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 2: or you know, I've talked to some people. I think 577 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 2: they're going to try to make some engineering changes, either 578 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 2: to how they do the surgery or with the threads themselves. 579 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 2: And so so this poses a problem for the company. 580 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 2: I think probably overall Elon is like concerned about that 581 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 2: next step, but has to be happy with this first patient. 582 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: I would think. Having said that, seeing Nolan use it, it 583 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: really does. 584 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 2: Sort of win you over in a lot of ways, 585 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 2: and you start to kind of like think, where you know, 586 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 2: the Elon's sci fi stuff about everybody getting get planned 587 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 2: with one of these. I think we're many many, many 588 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 2: many many years away from that if it happens. But 589 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 2: when I saw him using it while he's talking to me. 590 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 2: You start to realize, like God, like the rest of 591 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 2: us really could probably do stuff we can't do today. 592 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 2: You'd just be this like multitasking dynamo and I don't know. 593 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,959 Speaker 2: This was the first time I felt that viscerally, and 594 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 2: it became all the more interesting. 595 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 4: To me and Sarah. What's next for the company? What 596 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 4: are the next steps and what are you going to 597 00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 4: be watching? 598 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 3: So they as part of the trial Nolan's in, they 599 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 3: need to implant the device in a few more patients. 600 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 3: They will probably Ashley, do they have permission to go 601 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 3: into twelve patients as part of this as part of 602 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 3: this trial? 603 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 2: I remember twelve was sort of the goal for this year, 604 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 2: so it must be something along those lines. 605 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 3: So usually what a company gets is permission for a 606 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 3: few patients and then they can go into the next 607 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 3: phase of the trial, which in this case would be 608 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 3: the pivotal stage and it would be far more patients 609 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 3: and that would be the stage before you can move commercially. 610 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 3: So they probably have tiered permission where they just have 611 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 3: a blanket permission to go into a certain number of 612 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 3: patients as part of this phase of the trial, and 613 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 3: they can make small tweaks in between each patient to 614 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 3: see what works best, so it's a big exciting here 615 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 3: for them. 616 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 4: Ashley Sarah, thanks so much for joining us on Elenning. 617 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you. 618 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 4: This episode was produced by Stacey Wong. Naomi Shaven and 619 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 4: Rayhan Harmanci are our senior editors. The idea for this 620 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 4: very show also came from Ray Blake. Maples handles engineering, 621 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 4: and we get special editing assistants from Jeff Crocot. Our 622 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 4: supervising producer is Magnus hendrickson the Elon Inc. Theeen is 623 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 4: written and performed by Taka Yazazawa and Alex Sigihira. Brendan 624 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 4: Francis Newman is our executive producer, and Saide Bauman is 625 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 4: the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. I'm Joel Webber sitting in 626 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 4: for David Papa Dabolas. If you have a minute, please 627 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 4: rate and review our show. It'll help other listeners find us. 628 00:32:54,920 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 4: See you next week and