Speaker 1: In that world for our soul. There are certain tests,
Speaker 1: certain markers along the way, and you say, what do
Speaker 1: you live for? What do you dive for? What are
Speaker 1: you willing to sell out for? Welcome to the one
Speaker 1: you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance
Speaker 1: of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out,
Speaker 1: or you are what you think ring true. And yet
Speaker 1: for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.
Speaker 1: We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We
Speaker 1: see what we don't have instead of what we do.
Speaker 1: We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.
Speaker 1: But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It
Speaker 1: takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life
Speaker 1: worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep
Speaker 1: themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their
Speaker 1: good wolf m Thanks for joining us. Our guest on
Speaker 1: this episode is Eli Jackson Bear. Eli founded and currently
Speaker 1: teach us through the Lela Foundation, a nonprofit organization dedicated
Speaker 1: to world peace and freedom through universal self realization. Eli
Speaker 1: is the author of many books, including the one we
Speaker 1: discuss here and Outlaw Makes It Home. The Awakening of
Speaker 1: a Spiritual Revolutionary. Hi Eli, welcome to the show. Oh
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to have you on. We're going to
Speaker 1: talk about your latest book and Outlaw Makes at Home
Speaker 1: the Awakening of a Spiritual Revolutionary in more detail in
Speaker 1: a moment. But let's start like we always do, with
Speaker 1: the parable. There is a grandfather who's talking with his grandson.
Speaker 1: He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of
Speaker 1: us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and
Speaker 1: the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like
Speaker 1: greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and
Speaker 1: he thinks about it for a second, looks up at
Speaker 1: his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins?
Speaker 1: And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to start off by asking you what that parable
Speaker 1: means to you in your life and in the work
Speaker 1: that you do. Well. I would say, ultimately, when it
Speaker 1: comes down to is a discovery of who's feeding. Once
Speaker 1: you know who you are that's feeding, you'll know what
Speaker 1: it is you want to feeding. So generally we subconsciously
Speaker 1: identify with both with the characters, both the good wolf
Speaker 1: and the bad wolf, and when you go to war
Speaker 1: with ourselves. But in the end, when you find out
Speaker 1: who you really are, it's no contest that were you feed,
Speaker 1: there's no choice. It just becomes the obvious continuation of yourself.
Speaker 1: So as long as we see the good wolf from
Speaker 1: the bad wolf as both separate from ourselves, and identified
Speaker 1: the both of them as ourselves, we have conflict. But
Speaker 1: when we discover who we are, and we disassociate from
Speaker 1: both wolves, find the truth in ourselves, then we see
Speaker 1: our true nature, which is compassionate and love, conscious understanding,
Speaker 1: and then there's no question of feeding or not feed.
Speaker 1: Then you simply are as you are. But as we begin,
Speaker 1: there is like a war for our soul. It's a
Speaker 1: ward of the impulses of the animal versus the impulses
Speaker 1: of the divide, you can say. And so in that
Speaker 1: world for our soul, there are certain tests, certain markers
Speaker 1: along the way when you say what do you live for,
Speaker 1: what do you die for? What are you willing to
Speaker 1: sell out for? What are you willing to stay truth?
Speaker 1: And those tests defind us to find our character and
Speaker 1: give us the capacity to be the good wolf, to
Speaker 1: be the compassionate, loving kind being what we are. And
Speaker 1: to the degree that we sell out to our egotistical
Speaker 1: animal nature of selfishness, greed and me and mine, that degree,
Speaker 1: we lose our capacity to stay true to ourselves because
Speaker 1: we're still ourselves. Price that's wonderful. Tell me a little
Speaker 1: bit about when you say true self. I know that
Speaker 1: part of the answer is it can't be defined in
Speaker 1: the words that we're going to use. So understanding that,
Speaker 1: let's do your best, okay. So to know your true self,
Speaker 1: you have to look away from your false self. And
Speaker 1: you could say turn away from the bad wolf, so
Speaker 1: to turn away from what you believe you are already.
Speaker 1: So you can't find your true self as long as
Speaker 1: you believe you know who you are. And we all
Speaker 1: all are born into an identity. We have told our name.
Speaker 1: It gets repeated to us and so well remember it
Speaker 1: and imprinted. We're told this is our body, and these
Speaker 1: are our parents, and this is our environment, and we
Speaker 1: get conditioned and trained to say this is who I am.
Speaker 1: So you ask anybody in the world, who are you there? Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm eli? Why does that mean well, that means that
Speaker 1: I'm this man with this age and this family and
Speaker 1: these parents, and that's when we we believe we are.
Speaker 1: That's what we call myself when I say true self
Speaker 1: is to find what's behind the scenes, what's deeper than
Speaker 1: the name, what's deeper than the body, what's before your thoughts,
Speaker 1: what's before me and mine here for a moment, you
Speaker 1: just drop me in mine. What's left is your true soul.
Speaker 1: One of the things that you talk about in your
Speaker 1: videos and your books that I've read is this real
Speaker 1: commitment it to finding your true self, and that that
Speaker 1: commitment has to come above everything else, that you have
Speaker 1: to be willing to give up everything to find your
Speaker 1: true self. And I'm asking this question from a very
Speaker 1: personal angle, right. So, I have had several what you
Speaker 1: would consider sort of classic awakening moments where the unity
Speaker 1: of consciousness and all that is presented to me and
Speaker 1: I see it and it's clear and um. They last
Speaker 1: for a period time, then they fade and I find
Speaker 1: myself saying, oh, yes, I really want to go back
Speaker 1: to that, that's what's most important. And I had that direction,
Speaker 1: but then I get distracted and I go a different direction,
Speaker 1: and then the the urge comes back, follow it, and
Speaker 1: I find this this back and forth dance. And so
Speaker 1: what I'm curious about is what do we do in
Speaker 1: these moments. It's where that's not the most important thing,
Speaker 1: where despite realizing on some level maybe that I don't
Speaker 1: like the word should, but should be the most important thing,
Speaker 1: or that's where the deepest lasting happiness, but where that desire,
Speaker 1: that that urge goes a little bit more underground. And
Speaker 1: again I'm asking that from a personal sense, because I
Speaker 1: seem to do this little bit of back and forth.
Speaker 1: Most people do. And so the issue then is to
Speaker 1: find out for yourself what it is making more important
Speaker 1: and to tell the truth about that, because everyone says, oh,
Speaker 1: I want freedom, might want enlightenments, I want to love,
Speaker 1: and then they go off and get lost to them
Speaker 1: day to day. So to give yourself fully you have
Speaker 1: to be willing to tell the truth about the places
Speaker 1: where you're not an example for yourself. Is this really
Speaker 1: more important? And if it is, give yourself to that,
Speaker 1: and if it isn't, stop into olden And then you
Speaker 1: get to the point where you see it's so obvious
Speaker 1: and clear, and then you have a clear choice. I
Speaker 1: don't want to indulge in anymore. I want to be
Speaker 1: myss up. And then there has to be a great
Speaker 1: tolerance for whatever arises without taking it personally, because the
Speaker 1: tendency will be too when the next moment where you
Speaker 1: lose focus arises to say, oh, I'm not good enough,
Speaker 1: or I didn't do it, or I should go back.
Speaker 1: But what if the spaciousness allows for that as well?
Speaker 1: If you are silence, Silence has no problem with noise.
Speaker 1: But as soon as noise appears, if you use that
Speaker 1: to justify oh, I've gone off and I should be
Speaker 1: doing something else, that's just more mind stuff. And so
Speaker 1: this leads me into one of the things that I
Speaker 1: really wanted to discuss with you. And in order to
Speaker 1: frame it up, we I'm gonna need to tell a
Speaker 1: little bit about your your backstory. And again your book
Speaker 1: and Outlaw Makes a Home is a is an absolutely
Speaker 1: fascinating read. You've let quite uh, quite an interesting life.
Speaker 1: But what I'm really interested in is it at one
Speaker 1: point you began to incorporate an LP, neuro linguistic programming,
Speaker 1: the indiogram, and hypnosis into a unique form of therapy
Speaker 1: that you were delivering, and then after that you had
Speaker 1: sort of um, you met your your final teacher, Popagy,
Speaker 1: and you had a true lasting awakening, and you've rolled
Speaker 1: that into it also, And so what it brings up
Speaker 1: for me is this question of when does it make
Speaker 1: sense to work with the ego to deal with trauma
Speaker 1: and wounding and emotional deflation and and all that stuff,
Speaker 1: And when does it make sense to simply say, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm that none of that's true. I'm going to look
Speaker 1: right here to the great truth. How does all that
Speaker 1: play out in your mind when you work with people
Speaker 1: or when you're training therapists in your school. Well, first
Speaker 1: you have to know what someone wants. When you find
Speaker 1: out what you really want, that's the beginning. Most people
Speaker 1: don't know what they want. Most people have a set
Speaker 1: of condition wants and beliefs. I should be this way,
Speaker 1: I should have that, I should be different, whatever it is.
Speaker 1: People have a whole variety of condition, wants and desires.
Speaker 1: When you get it all boiled down to what you
Speaker 1: really want, then the real work begins. Then. If trauma arises,
Speaker 1: you deal with trauma. If trauma doesn't arise, you don't
Speaker 1: deal with trauma. It's really dealing with what's presented and
Speaker 1: what's presented will be determined by what it is that
Speaker 1: you want that frames the discussion. And then yes, sometimes
Speaker 1: it's appropriate to do with trauma and sometimes it's not.
Speaker 1: And it's really not a rule, it's really what is
Speaker 1: presenting because you have to realize what you're talking about
Speaker 1: is you call it a journey. So when there is
Speaker 1: a journey, start you said start in different places, It doesn't.
Speaker 1: It always starts with me. And where does it end?
Speaker 1: It ends with I? So how far a journey is
Speaker 1: it from me? Two eye? None? That's it. That's the truth.
Speaker 1: And then if you stay true to that, you'll be tested.
Speaker 1: All of your your secondary needs and wants and desires
Speaker 1: will come up to tempt you to say, oh what
Speaker 1: about this? So what about that? And if you then,
Speaker 1: instead of following that, you stay true, you'll deepen. If
Speaker 1: you do follow that, you learn, oh, this is what
Speaker 1: I'm putting in front of it. Is this more important?
Speaker 1: Do I want to follow this? And then you learn
Speaker 1: from that. So either way, it's all on earning experience.
Speaker 1: And you guys talk about these three levels of therapeutic intervention,
Speaker 1: and the first you describe as symptom cure and habit
Speaker 1: control as the first level. Is it necessary to I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna use this word, because no better one comes
Speaker 1: to mind. Master each level in order to go to
Speaker 1: the next level. Not at all, Not at all. We
Speaker 1: teach those three levels because you will get a whole
Speaker 1: variety of people showing up who want help. And some
Speaker 1: people just want to help because they want to stop smoking,
Speaker 1: or they want to change some part of the behavior,
Speaker 1: so you can deal with them at that level. Others
Speaker 1: show up and they're wounded emotionally, psychically wounded, and so
Speaker 1: you're looking at that level. Others show up and they
Speaker 1: have already seen through that, or they're already penetrate to
Speaker 1: something deeper and more fundamental. So there's no need to
Speaker 1: ever give yourself any steps along the way. But if
Speaker 1: steps appear, you take them. But you just go straight home.
Speaker 1: And then if you go home, you go from me
Speaker 1: to eye and you are as you are, and if
Speaker 1: something arises, you deal with it. If trauma comes out beautiful,
Speaker 1: to deal with it, it doesn't matter. It still doesn't
Speaker 1: stop you from being yourself. You don't recommend spiritual practices
Speaker 1: meditation necessarily everything is useful. I meditate I love meditating.
Speaker 1: I spent I was in a Zen monastery. I mean
Speaker 1: I loved it. I was. I spent years with my
Speaker 1: Chinese teacher doing Dallas yoga. I love it. It's all
Speaker 1: useful for training the mind and body, but it's not
Speaker 1: useful for waking up, because if you look at the
Speaker 1: ones who woke up, you look at the Buddha. I
Speaker 1: didn't have a practice. You look at anything in enlightened
Speaker 1: Zen masters, they didn't have a practice. The practice is
Speaker 1: always trying to teach someone else to do what you've done. Differently,
Speaker 1: Buddha sits under a tree and says, I'm not getting
Speaker 1: up until I get it. Whatever it takes, come and
Speaker 1: get me. I am sitting here until I get it.
Speaker 1: It's that willingness, the immovable willingness is all that's required.
Speaker 1: Then people after him say, oh, I'll sit for twenty
Speaker 1: minutes a day, then i'll get a light, or I'll
Speaker 1: sit for an hour. I'll go on a seschine for
Speaker 1: a week. The Buddha didn't say I'm gonna sit for
Speaker 1: an hour. I'm gonna sit for a week. He said
Speaker 1: I'm sitting until I get it. That's what's required. But
Speaker 1: the rest is very useful. I love sitting, I love meditating,
Speaker 1: I love yoga. So it's not that I would, you know,
Speaker 1: say anything negative about him except that don't use it
Speaker 1: to wake up h If we look at the Buddha's life,
Speaker 1: he had a long history of following any spiritual practice
Speaker 1: he could find and going to great links. And so
Speaker 1: maybe all those were just useful for him realizing what
Speaker 1: didn't work. Yeah, I guess the challenge here, and I'll
Speaker 1: lump you into this category fairlier, unfairly right, sort of
Speaker 1: a direct path, right, like you want to wake up?
Speaker 1: Wake up? Right? Yes. One of my books is called
Speaker 1: Sudden Awakening. Yes, yes, I read a read a fair
Speaker 1: portion of it. I think that the challenge for a
Speaker 1: lot of people is and I get I get the
Speaker 1: fundamental challenge of, oh, I'm going to do something to
Speaker 1: find myself. I'm going to take a step towards myself.
Speaker 1: How do you take a step towards yourself? You're already yourself,
Speaker 1: there's nowhere to go. So I get that, and I
Speaker 1: guess this is just sort of an ongoing debate that
Speaker 1: happens between a gradual awakening and a sudden awakening. And
Speaker 1: and it's gradual until it's sudden. I guess it's the
Speaker 1: mind that's trying to accomplish. It's looking for some steps,
Speaker 1: tell me what to do exactly, and that's the ego. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so as long as you know it's the ego that's
Speaker 1: searching for a thing to do, the only answer is
Speaker 1: don't do anything. So right now, you stop all you're doing.
Speaker 1: The ego doesn't have a job. You can rest, and
Speaker 1: your mind stops, and everything opens, and there's a clarity
Speaker 1: and stillness. It's always been here, just been covered by
Speaker 1: the noise of the chatter of the internal dialogue. So
Speaker 1: that settles down right now and everything stops. Truth of
Speaker 1: yourself really a little effortlessly, silently without words. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to tap into that while also running a podcast that
Speaker 1: relies on dialogue. So in that moment, yep, there's a
Speaker 1: moment of startlence. It's illness and truth, and then the
Speaker 1: mind goes back in. Oh, I've got a job to do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've got to keep the podcast going. I've got to
Speaker 1: keep talking. Okay, So it's possible that we can continue
Speaker 1: speaking without that happening. That actually, you don't need to
Speaker 1: be in control that there's your heart is already intelligent
Speaker 1: and alive, and it speaks when it needs to. And sometimes,
Speaker 1: even though it's heresy in the online world, silence can
Speaker 1: be trend. People feel it and they taste it, and
Speaker 1: everyone loves it so beautiful. That was one of the
Speaker 1: biggest moments for me. I've been to several retreats with
Speaker 1: Audi Ashanti, and when he sort of pointed out that
Speaker 1: like silence is always there was a total like bam
Speaker 1: moment for me when I went, I'll be damn it,
Speaker 1: sure is, even with all the noise that's going on.
Speaker 1: I don't have to make silence. I don't have to
Speaker 1: somehow create it or shut everything down for it to
Speaker 1: be there. That is a pretty profound moment. Yes, that's transmission. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: who is your wife? Yeah, I'm so lucky married to
Speaker 1: a goddess. Yeah you are. So. Let's talk about the
Speaker 1: indiogram for a minute, because you sort of turn the
Speaker 1: indigram on its head. Essentially, you say that we use
Speaker 1: the indiogram two tell us who we are and then
Speaker 1: use that to sort of drive our egoic personalities. And
Speaker 1: you say that the indiogram can be used exactly the
Speaker 1: opposite as a way of showing how we're obscuring our
Speaker 1: true self. I think is that? Is that an accurate statement? Yes,
Speaker 1: Let's say the indiagram describes the dad wolf. Let's talk
Speaker 1: a little bit more about that. Elaborate on that, because
Speaker 1: in the Indiagram study I've done, it shows here's like,
Speaker 1: take your type a nine. Here's a non who's thriving.
Speaker 1: Here's a nine who's doing poortly. And so I would
Speaker 1: you know, in my traditional understanding, it would say, what,
Speaker 1: here's a here's a nine who's to use the analogy
Speaker 1: to show feeding their good wolf. Here's a nine who's
Speaker 1: feeding their bad wolf. But I think you're you're driving
Speaker 1: at something deeper, I am, because all of that is
Speaker 1: based on a misunderstanding of the Instagram. It's called with
Speaker 1: the way you learned the intagram of personality. As long
Speaker 1: as it's nigram of personality, it's egoing. So you can
Speaker 1: have a good nine or a bad nine, a functional
Speaker 1: nine or dysfunctional nine, a spiritual nine or a sleepwalking nine,
Speaker 1: but it's still a nine. And as long as you
Speaker 1: have an identity as a nine, that's a number. It's
Speaker 1: a robot. You're identifying yourself as a robot. Whether you
Speaker 1: call it a functional robot or a dysfunctional robot, it's
Speaker 1: still a robot. It's robot number nine. It's mechanical, habitual, predictable,
Speaker 1: and it as its repressions and it's rassions, and it
Speaker 1: has its projections, and it has its lifestyle, and it's
Speaker 1: an animal robot. It's it's our conditioning. It's conditioning plus genetics,
Speaker 1: conditioning plus genetics. So, because you're genetically predisposed to your fixation,
Speaker 1: and so as long as you identify yourself as a
Speaker 1: nine or any number, you're identifying yourself as an ego.
Speaker 1: The possibility is to see that, in fact, it's not
Speaker 1: the innogram of personality, it's the innagram of character fixation.
Speaker 1: And when you identify the character fixation as a number nine,
Speaker 1: you can start to see is this who I really am?
Speaker 1: Is this really true? And you start to question yourself.
Speaker 1: You start self inquiry to discover is this real? Is
Speaker 1: this making me happy and fulfilled as functional as I
Speaker 1: am as a nine? Does that bring me complete fulfillment?
Speaker 1: Does it bring me freedom? Does it bring me true love?
Speaker 1: If it does, no problem, stay fulfilled nine? If it
Speaker 1: doesn't be willing to see deeper than the fixation. When
Speaker 1: you go deeper than the character fixation, you get to
Speaker 1: true character. That's where you get to the good wolf.
Speaker 1: The good wolf is the true character underlying the basis
Speaker 1: of personality and the animal manifestation. So your true self
Speaker 1: is the good wolf. Your bad wolf self is the fixation.
Speaker 1: As long as you have identified yourself as the bad wolf.
Speaker 1: You try to be good and you try to better.
Speaker 1: You try to be more compassionate, more loving, more carrying,
Speaker 1: more understanding, But it's always from the background of being
Speaker 1: the bad wolf, because you believe you're in the line.
Speaker 1: You believe you're inn eight, you believe you're at four,
Speaker 1: and you're trying to be a better one of those.
Speaker 1: And as good as you get at it, it's never enough.
Speaker 1: That's the point. If it were no problem, I'm totally
Speaker 1: a functional kind of guy. If it works, no problem.
Speaker 1: If it doesn't work, find out, check it out, go deeper.
Speaker 1: Then you see, well, is it enough to be a
Speaker 1: functional line? Is it enough to be a spiritual set?
Speaker 1: Is that really satisfying as a really fulfilling If it isn't,
Speaker 1: then you start to see, well, maybe that's the act.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's the animal act and I'm acting as if
Speaker 1: I'm the animal trainer, but actually you're acting as an
Speaker 1: animal in the act. As the act. The possibility is
Speaker 1: to wake up from the whole act. They got from
Speaker 1: the show. Then the show continues. It's not like it stops.
Speaker 1: But you're not identified with it. Need not take me personally.
Speaker 1: You show up as a character in the play without
Speaker 1: having a stake in, without having proved that you're good enough,
Speaker 1: prove that you're lovable, prove that you're smart enough, prove
Speaker 1: that you're good enough, prove that you're more functional. Doesn't
Speaker 1: all that is like finished? Then you have free form.
Speaker 1: You can actually show up in the play and be creative, spontaneous,
Speaker 1: being alive. Before you talk to me about how recognizing
Speaker 1: our character fixation? So as a nine, what is the
Speaker 1: character fixation of a nine? Sleepwalking on? It's the best
Speaker 1: way that's going to nine is if you think of
Speaker 1: our cousins that wells gorillas are They basically sit around
Speaker 1: and eat all day. They're very social, they hang out,
Speaker 1: they don't get into fights, and even when there is
Speaker 1: a challenge to the harem another mail comes along, they
Speaker 1: don't fight to the death. They don't kill each other,
Speaker 1: plays and postures. They pump themselves up, they grunt, they
Speaker 1: runner each other and charge a couple of times until
Speaker 1: it becomes quite obvious who the bigger one is and
Speaker 1: the other one leaves. It's basically a very social, peaceful
Speaker 1: society because rage has been so deeply avoided that they're
Speaker 1: not going to kill each other. So the nine fixation
Speaker 1: avoids rage, and it's feeling angry all the time and
Speaker 1: submim so the nine, in order to be friendly and
Speaker 1: kind and good and helpful, will say yes and mean no.
Speaker 1: Every time anybody asks you anything and you say yes,
Speaker 1: there's always a no behind and then noos no, don't
Speaker 1: tell me what to do, leave me alone. I just
Speaker 1: want to sit on my couch and what drink a
Speaker 1: beer has whatever it is being by myself, be in
Speaker 1: control and angry with someone else is in control. I'm
Speaker 1: angry when I have to do what I don't want
Speaker 1: to do, but I can't let anybody know that because
Speaker 1: I want to be a loving, nice guy. And so
Speaker 1: you sleepwalk on top of that, make believe that that's
Speaker 1: not there. And to make believe it's not there, you
Speaker 1: have to go numb to yourself. And to go numb
Speaker 1: to yourself, you have to be ignorant of what's already there.
Speaker 1: That's ignoring the truth. That's the first ignorance that we
Speaker 1: all fall into as you into this intigram. Nine is
Speaker 1: the core of it all, and we all are these
Speaker 1: big gorillas angry. I mean, you believe we're not wanting
Speaker 1: to be a run and yet being social saying yes
Speaker 1: when we mean though, And then the only other fixations
Speaker 1: really just come out of that first COREN one. So
Speaker 1: the first step is to start to tell the truth
Speaker 1: of yourself when you say yes and you mean no,
Speaker 1: that's really going on. We have had nine saying you know,
Speaker 1: I never realized I am pissed and everything all the time.
Speaker 1: It's there's a shocking revelation. So then when you start
Speaker 1: to notice it, you start to own it. Then you
Speaker 1: start to be able to have the integrity to say
Speaker 1: yes when you mean it and see no when you
Speaker 1: mean Then this brings up this enormous possibility of rage
Speaker 1: and rage. Don't want to feel rage. I could kill somebody.
Speaker 1: You don't want to kill everybody. You're a good guy,
Speaker 1: you're non violent, But there's this animal rage that has
Speaker 1: to be met, and if it's not met, it's ignored.
Speaker 1: And if it's ignored, you're living in ignorance. When it's
Speaker 1: you actually are meeting the passion of your animal nature,
Speaker 1: which is what fires up he lives this life. You
Speaker 1: become more alive, you become more present, you become more
Speaker 1: capable of being in the moment because you're not having
Speaker 1: to say yes when you mean no, you're not having
Speaker 1: to ignore. And that's the that's the start of life.
Speaker 1: That sounds like, become in a more functional nine though,
Speaker 1: saying no and I mean no, becoming a functional human being,
Speaker 1: right right? Functional human beings good? We like that. Well,
Speaker 1: that's what I find interesting about your work is the
Speaker 1: potentially working at multiple layers. Yes, but it's not a
Speaker 1: functional nine because the nine fixation in its nature avoids rage.
Speaker 1: That's the bottom of it. Nine fixation. The idealization is
Speaker 1: I am comfortable to say yes when you mean yes,
Speaker 1: and no and you mean no. It's not comfortable. M hm.
Speaker 1: So it's actually going against the fixation. It's not being
Speaker 1: a functional line, it's being a dysfunctional line of being
Speaker 1: a functional human being. And so in your view, the
Speaker 1: insiogram always points us to I don't know if you'd
Speaker 1: use this word or not, but it came to mind
Speaker 1: our fatal flaw. Sure well, Gerd Jeff calls it the
Speaker 1: chief feature, the chief feature. Yes. So the first person
Speaker 1: to teach the innogram in the West is Gurgias, who
Speaker 1: was a mystic philosopher from Armenia right seating Russia before
Speaker 1: the revolution there. And he said everybody has a chief feature.
Speaker 1: And he said, there's the Russians he was working with
Speaker 1: that they ever knew their chief feature, they would die
Speaker 1: of shock. They are so deluded into who they think
Speaker 1: themselves to be compared to their actual where they are
Speaker 1: in the world. So there's a The flaw is this
Speaker 1: first ignorance. It's the first form in the sleep in
Speaker 1: ignoring the truth. You often talk about that all of
Speaker 1: our experience, and you pull this in lots of different places,
Speaker 1: but you talk about how all of our experience has
Speaker 1: a mental, emotional, and a physical component, and then the
Speaker 1: ego encapsulates all three of those. Could you talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about that, you know, it's interesting that first
Speaker 1: starts with Aristotle. Aristotle said that we humans have three
Speaker 1: spirits or three souls, three body minds. He said, first,
Speaker 1: there's a vegetative so we each have a vegetative body.
Speaker 1: And Aristotle says, the vegetative is the foundation and necessary,
Speaker 1: and out of that comes what you call the animal spirit,
Speaker 1: and out of that that comes the human spirit. By
Speaker 1: the animal spirit, we're talking about emotions. We all have
Speaker 1: the animal emotions. All animals have rage, and all animals
Speaker 1: can feel hurt, all animals feel sad. We have an
Speaker 1: emotional animal body. And then what he called the human
Speaker 1: he said, was the rational thinking. And so human rational
Speaker 1: thinking is beyond emotions. It needs the animal body, just
Speaker 1: as the animal body needs the vegetative body. And when
Speaker 1: you think of our vegetative intelligence, just consider it for yourself.
Speaker 1: Imagine we had this stack of chemicals that we call
Speaker 1: a body, that we were carrying around with us, that
Speaker 1: we had to keep at an exact temperature all the time,
Speaker 1: no matter everywhere. We could take the sack of chemicals
Speaker 1: up into a mountain or under the ocean, or flying
Speaker 1: or into the snow or into tropical jungle, and if
Speaker 1: it goes off by just a few degrees, it dies.
Speaker 1: Too hot, too cold, it dies. That's our level of
Speaker 1: our vegetative intelligence that keeps us functional a lot remarkable
Speaker 1: that we could never do right to count our heartbeats
Speaker 1: or think about our breathing or wor worry about our
Speaker 1: what our blood pressure or body temperature impossible, or digestion
Speaker 1: extra intelligence that we have vegetative. Then we have this
Speaker 1: animal intelligence, which is the emotional body, very very strong.
Speaker 1: And then we have this mental intelligence, which is the
Speaker 1: rational thinking mind. And all of that gets encapsulated into me.
Speaker 1: So this idea of me says, it's my body and
Speaker 1: these are my feelings, these are my thought us, this
Speaker 1: is my life, and these are my parents, and this
Speaker 1: is my partner of my future. And this idea of
Speaker 1: me and mine becomes this bubble, and we then project
Speaker 1: our universe around the walls of this bubble. And the
Speaker 1: way you know you're projecting is it's all about me.
Speaker 1: No matter where you are or what's going on, it's
Speaker 1: always about me. We are always the center of the universe.
Speaker 1: So there's me centric view of reality that it's my
Speaker 1: world and my work and my life and my creativity
Speaker 1: and my art and my problems and my money. Is
Speaker 1: all the projection and ego and projection of me and mine,
Speaker 1: and it's a bubble. And the amazing thing is the
Speaker 1: first person to pop this bubble was Pithagoras. Pythagoras is
Speaker 1: the root of the intagram. Pythagoras is where the intagram
Speaker 1: comes from. And Pithagoras is the first one who called
Speaker 1: the universe the cosmos. Cosmos is a Greek word and
Speaker 1: it means both harmony and interconnectedness. And by calling the
Speaker 1: universe of cosmos, he suddenly took it from being me centric,
Speaker 1: a person centric or earth centric, to being universally centric,
Speaker 1: to being universe centric. That was brilliant. That's years ago
Speaker 1: that Methagoras has this inside. And then he sees that
Speaker 1: all of it is based on mathematics and harmonics, and
Speaker 1: the indiogram was his model for how you integrate mathematics
Speaker 1: and harmonics to describe the motion of materialization in the universe.
Speaker 1: And then I can never say his name, Geared death
Speaker 1: Gar Jeff was the one who did the modern version
Speaker 1: of what we know is the instagram. Well, he's the
Speaker 1: first one who presented it in the West, and the
Speaker 1: best if you were interested, you read In Search of
Speaker 1: the Miraculous, which is a book by one of his
Speaker 1: students of Spence in that Russian mathematician who took copious
Speaker 1: notes and puts the whole system in place. But what
Speaker 1: I've discovered is everything that good Jeff is teaching there
Speaker 1: he got from Pithagaras from the mystery schools, is still
Speaker 1: carried the Pithagorian teaching. But really the modern incarnation comes
Speaker 1: from Oscar Chauso. Oscar Chasso was a Chilean started his
Speaker 1: mystery school in Chile in the Rica Chile called the
Speaker 1: Rica Institute. And he's the first one who teaches the
Speaker 1: innigram of personality, which is what you learned. And so
Speaker 1: Oscar taught it to Claudio Norajo, who was a Chilean
Speaker 1: psychotherapist living in Berkeley, and Claude I learned from Claudio
Speaker 1: and Claudio students Katay Speak and others. So Claudio took
Speaker 1: it to Berkeley where it became fleshed out with the
Speaker 1: psychological wealth and insight, and then it was caught as
Speaker 1: the intigram personality. Ellen Palmer and I both had our
Speaker 1: first Intagram books, going to the same publisher. They took hers,
Speaker 1: not mine. Her was born practical, rooms more spiritual, and
Speaker 1: that's how it's good. So it spreads from Hillen Palmer
Speaker 1: really her indigram personality, who got it from Claudio, who
Speaker 1: got it from Chile, from Oscar Cholso very interesting. And
Speaker 1: have you your book on the indiogram Um was written
Speaker 1: some time ago? But was it rereleased recently? Well, and
Speaker 1: I wrote it first and at that point came out
Speaker 1: first in Germany. But then I did a new version
Speaker 1: and now we're I've just updated the recent one from
Speaker 1: Fixation to Freedom and added this part about Pythagoras, which
Speaker 1: I've just recently discovered. I mean, searching for this now
Speaker 1: for thirty years and they finally found the link. Well,
Speaker 1: we are at the end of our time. For the
Speaker 1: main part of the interview, you and I are going
Speaker 1: to do a brief post show conversation afterwards, where I'm
Speaker 1: going to ask you to tell a couple of the
Speaker 1: stories from the book and Outlaw makes It Home, which
Speaker 1: are just fascinating. You're sort of like a cultural history
Speaker 1: of of the US and and the spiritual movement to me.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's just so many touchstones in there that
Speaker 1: we all see that you were right in the middle of.
Speaker 1: So I'm looking forward to that. Listeners, if you're interested
Speaker 1: in the post show. You can get those by becoming
Speaker 1: a supporter of the show One you Feed, dot Net
Speaker 1: Slash Support. Eli, thank you so much for taking the
Speaker 1: time to come on the show today. I've really enjoyed
Speaker 1: talking with you. It's been fun. Alright, Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for having me up. Okay, bye, all right. If
Speaker 1: what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider
Speaker 1: making a donation to the One You Feed podcast. Head
Speaker 1: over to one you Feed, dot net slash Support. The
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