1 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: If you had to guess about the internal life, the 2 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: conscious experience of the guy who co founded Pixar, the 3 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: computer animation studio, what would you guess about what's happening 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: inside his head? And how do any of us picture 5 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: things internally? How do we visualize? These sound like simple questions, 6 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: but strap in for some very wild surprises today about 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: our internal experiences. Welcome to Inner Cosmos with me David Eagleman. 8 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: I'm a neuroscientist and an author at Stanford, and in 9 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,959 Speaker 1: these episodes we dive deeply into our three pound universe 10 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:59,959 Speaker 1: to uncover the most surprising secrets about our lives. Today's 11 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: episode is about visual imagery. Now, I'm not talking about 12 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: vision when something is in front of us and photons 13 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 1: are bouncing off it and hitting our eyes and our 14 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: brains are doing the analysis. Instead, I'm talking about when 15 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: you're sitting there, let's say, listening to a podcast and 16 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: the speaker says, hey, imagine watching a bluebird landing on 17 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: a tree branch in the spring. Imagine the bird looks around, 18 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: moving its head curiously, and then it flaps its wings 19 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: for a moment, then it hops to a different spot, 20 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: then it flies away. Now, there's no blue bird. Instead, 21 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: your brain is taking everything it's ever learned about bluebirds 22 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: in the past and generating internal visual imagery, all in 23 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: the pitch blackness of your skull. How does that work? 24 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: And how did recent discoveries here completely change the debate 25 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: in psychology and neuroscience and the way we understand internal experience. 26 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: So let's start in nineteen thirty eight, when an animator 27 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: named Walt Disney was trying to reboot the popularity of 28 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: his little rodent character named Mickey Mouse. So after years 29 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: of work, he ended up making a feature length animated 30 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: film set to classical music, and he called this Fantasia. Now, 31 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: a project of this size combining visuals and music, this 32 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: had never been attempted before, and it ended up becoming 33 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: one of the most successful films in history. Now. Of 34 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: the millions of young children who gaped it Fantasia over 35 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: the next decades, one was especially taken by the magic 36 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 1: of animation and the possibilities for how this could evolve. 37 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: This was a boy named ed Catmol and he grew 38 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 1: up into a world in which transistors were shrinking in 39 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: the power of computer was growing, and all this was 40 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 1: lighting up new pathways in his imagination. This young man 41 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: would go on to create new methods to represent three 42 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: dimensional objects mathematically, and after his PhD, he would co 43 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: found a studio for making animated films with computers. This 44 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: studio was called Pixar after twenty seven feature films. Ed 45 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: had contributed more to our visual world than almost anyone 46 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: in his generation, but there were certain things that he 47 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: couldn't do. For example, his friend asked him to visualize 48 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: a sphere in front of him, and Ed just couldn't 49 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: do that. Now, was this some sort of rare brain 50 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: disease or what was going on here? So to understand this, 51 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to zoom out to the question, the critical 52 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: question for today, which is how do any of us 53 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: picture a sphere in our heads? What does it mean 54 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: to visualize something? So I'd like you to imagine an 55 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: ant crawling on a red and white tablecloth towards a 56 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: jar of purple jelly. Now, what exactly is happening in 57 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: your brain? What is your experience? Are you seeing this 58 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: like a movie or is it just a concept about 59 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: ants and tablecloths and jelly? But it's not really like 60 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: seeing Well, this is one of those questions that might 61 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: seem simple, but it led to decades of debate and 62 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:31,679 Speaker 1: experiment among researchers, and this debate came to a head 63 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies in the psychology literature. People were 64 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 1: asking what is visual imagery? How is visual information stored? 65 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: Do we actually see the ant like the way you 66 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: would experience vision, like watching a movie, or is something 67 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: else going on? One side of the debate argued that 68 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 1: information about visual objects was stored in a symbolic language 69 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: like format, the way you would store data on a computer, 70 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: and on the other side of the debate, the idea 71 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: was that you're actually running your visual cortex and seeing 72 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: the thing. Essentially, it's the same experience as seeing something real. 73 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: This debate was really spearheaded by two luminarias in the field. 74 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: One was Xenon Folician, who said, you're just manipulating symbols 75 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: in your head, you're not actually seeing the thing, and 76 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: the other was Stephen Coslin, who said, no, it's actually 77 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: like a vision. You're running the same machinery. You're having 78 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: a visual experience. And they both did experiments back and forth. 79 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: Felician said, look, you're insane. It's not stored like a picture, 80 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: and Costlin said, no, you're insane. It's not stored like 81 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: a proposition, You're actually seeing it. And it was very 82 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: difficult to come to a conclusion. Each argued for what 83 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: he felt was true, and both were smart, so why 84 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: couldn't they come to an agreement? So who was right? Well, 85 00:05:54,480 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: you can answer this yourself. Think about how people actually visualize. 86 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to walk you through an exercise and then 87 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: I'll tell you the answer of how humans actually visualize, 88 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: and I guarantee that you will not get the right answer. 89 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:15,119 Speaker 1: So imagine this picture in your head, the rising sun. 90 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: Think about the picture that comes before your mind's eye. 91 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: Imagine the sun rising above the horizon into a hazy sky. 92 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: And now picture that the sky clears and surrounds the 93 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: sun with blueness. Now picture clouds, A storm comes, there 94 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: are flashes of lightning, and now a rainbow appears. Now 95 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: what I want you to consider is how vividly you 96 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: pictured that. How vivid is your mental picture on a 97 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: scale from one to five, where one is pictureless and 98 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 1: five is akin to a photo or a video. So 99 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: really think about this. The sun rising into the hazy sky, 100 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: the sky clears to blue, clouds move in lightning flashes, 101 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: finally a rainbow appears. How would you rate the vividness 102 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: of your imagery from one no picture at all to 103 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: five as clear as a movie. So whatever score you 104 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: came up with there, it's not the right answer about 105 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: how humans visualize the rising sun. The score you came 106 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: up with is your answer, but it's not the right 107 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: one for everyone. So returning to this question of why 108 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: Fylition and Coslin, two brilliant researchers, couldn't come to agreement, 109 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: the answer was this, they were each having a different 110 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: experience on the inside. So with Felician's introspection, he didn't 111 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: experience a picture and Coslin did. And here's the key. 112 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: They both operated under the assumption that everyone else was 113 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: having the same experience they were. It's a natural assumption. 114 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: And you've heard me talk on other episodes about about 115 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: how we each live on our own planet, the details 116 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: of our inner cosmos determined by the three pounds of 117 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: electrically screaming cells locked in our skull and constructing our reality. 118 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: We each have our own slightly different version of reality, 119 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: but we generally assume that everyone else is having the 120 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: same thing, and so when Felician considered how do I imagine 121 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: the ant on the tablecloth or the rising sun? He 122 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: realized that he had no real picture in his head, 123 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: and he assumed everyone else had the same experience, and 124 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: he argued for that truth in the literature. And when 125 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: Coslin saw a little movie in his head, he assumed 126 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: everyone else did too, and he argued for what he 127 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: believed was true for everyone. Like all of us, they 128 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: were each operating under the assumption that everyone else's internal 129 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: life was just like their own. And that's why the 130 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: scientific literature was confused for years, because we all make 131 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: these assumption that everyone experiences their internal life as we do. So, 132 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: as it turns out, there are major differences between people 133 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: when it comes to the vividness of their visual imagery. 134 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: Now this has been known for a while, but my 135 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: colleague Adam Zeeman put a name to this in twenty fifteen. 136 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: He thought, look, let's call your internal imagery fantasia, which 137 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 1: is the term that Aristotle used for the mind's I 138 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: think of this word like Walt Disney's fantasia, but now 139 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: with a pH instead of an F. And the important 140 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: part is Zeeman said, if a person really visualizes nothing 141 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: at all. We'll call that a fantasia. A is just 142 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: a prefix that means not so. In other words, no fantasia, 143 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: no mind's I thinking without images. And on the other 144 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: end of the spectrum, if a person sees like an 145 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: internal movie, he called that hyperfantasia. They're having imagery so 146 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: so vivid that it rivals real seeing. So that's the 147 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: spectrum from a fantasia to hyperfantasia. Now how do you 148 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: measure that? Well, there's this standardized test created by the 149 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: British psychologist David Marx. It's called the Vividness of Visual 150 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: Imagery Questionnaire, and I've linked to this on the show notes. 151 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: This questionnaire walks you through visualizing a bunch of scenarios. 152 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: For example, think of some relative or friend who you 153 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: frequently see but who is not with you at present, 154 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: and consider carefully the picture that comes before your mind's eye. 155 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: Imagine the exact contours of the face, the head, the shoulders, 156 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: the body. Then think about how they walk, the precise carriage, 157 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: the length of the step, think about the different colors 158 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: of some of their familiar clothes. For each scenario, you 159 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: try to form a mental picture, and then you rate 160 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: how vivid it is using that at five point scale, 161 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: if you don't have any visual image, you rate vividness 162 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 1: as one, which means no image at all. I only 163 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: know that I'm thinking of the object. You would score 164 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: a two to mean dim and vague image. You'd use 165 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: three to indicate moderately realistic and vivid. Four means realistic 166 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: and reasonably vivid, and you use a five to mean 167 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: perfectly realistic, as vivid as real seeing. So think about this. 168 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: What is it like for you on the spectrum from 169 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 1: no image to as vivid as real seeing? So try 170 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: with some of these questions. Think of the front of 171 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: a shop that you often go to. Consider the picture 172 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: that comes before your mind's eye, the appearance of the 173 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: shop from the opposite side of the road, a window 174 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: display including colors and shapes and details of individual items 175 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: for sale. Now imagine you enter the shop and go 176 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: to the counter or the counter assistant serves you money 177 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: changes hands. How vivid is your imagery? Or try this one. 178 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: Think of a country scene which involves trees, mountains, a lake. 179 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: Consider the picture that comes before your mind's eye the 180 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 1: contours of the landscape, the color and shape of the lake, 181 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: the color and shape of the trees. So think about 182 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: what your level of clarity is. Now, my lab showed 183 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: that we can actually measure this in people objectively, not 184 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: just asking them subjective questions about their experience, but measuring 185 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: them in the brain scanner. So we had people take 186 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: the vividness of visual Imagery questionnaire, and then we put 187 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: them in brain imaging fMRI and we had them do 188 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: some visual imagery tasks, and then we looked at the 189 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: activity in their visual cortex relative to the activity and 190 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: the rest of their brains. And the key is that 191 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,959 Speaker 1: instead of averaging all the participants together like you usually 192 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: do in fMRI experiments, we analyzed each person individually and 193 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: we found that some people when they're imaging, have less 194 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: activity in the visual cortex, and some people have more 195 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: and everywhere in between. And when we correlate each participant 196 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: with their vividness of visual imagery score, we found that 197 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: the more clear your imagery, the more activity in your 198 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: visual cortex. In other words, your vividness of visual imagery 199 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: is measurable objectively. If you're someone who has rich visual imagery, 200 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: you have more activity running in your visual cortex. And 201 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: we were Jazz defined that we could objectively verify subjective report. 202 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: So let's return to the young man that I mentioned 203 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: at the beginning who watched and loved Walt Disney's Fantasia. 204 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 1: This was Ed Catmoll. He loved animated films as a 205 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: child and wanted at some point more than anything to 206 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: go into the world of animated filmmaking, but there was 207 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: no clear path for that. So he ended up getting 208 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: his doctorate in computer science and in nineteen seventy eight 209 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: he developed new three D computer graphics techniques involving how 210 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: to describe any arbitrary surface as little patches. This is 211 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: called the Catmull Clark surface subdivision, and later he would 212 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: win an Academy Award for Technical Achievement for this, and 213 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: Ed was involved in all the stuff that followed from that, 214 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: including particle effects and ray tracing and everything about how 215 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: light bounces off objects and where you get reflections and shadows. 216 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: And he and his colleagues made the computer program render Man, 217 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: which allowed them making a very complex scenes, and collectively 218 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: this is what made computer graphics realistic. So in the 219 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies he got together with his friends and colleagues 220 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: and they collectively had the ambition to make the world's 221 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: first computer animated film, and things took a while, but 222 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: then George Lucas got interested and took on the team, 223 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: and then in nineteen eighty six, Pixar spun off as 224 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: an independent company with Ed as the president. They got 225 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: their investment money from Steve Jobs, who joined the board 226 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: of directors as chairman, and they made this stunning two 227 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: minute short film called Luxo Junior, which starred two desk lamps, 228 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: one large and one small. You may have seen the 229 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: short film, and if you haven't, you should. The large 230 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: lamp looks on while the smaller, younger lamp has a 231 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: great time playing with a ball until it accidentally deflates it. 232 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: And by the way, this film is from Whence Pixar 233 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: got its mascot. So Pixar went on to great acclaim 234 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: and success, starting with Toy Story in nineteen ninety five, 235 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: which was the first fully computer animated feature film, and 236 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: Ed eventually became president of Walt Disney Animation Studios. So 237 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: here's a guy who led the world in the realm 238 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: of gorgeous computer animated film. So imagine his surprise when 239 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: he learned about a fantasia, because he immediately understood that 240 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: his mind's eye was blind ed. Is a fantasic. He 241 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: doesn't visualize anything, and this makes no sense, right, How 242 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: could the guy who runs Pixar and produced the visuals 243 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: for our generation? How could he be a fantasic? So 244 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: Ed and I have been in touch for a while 245 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: on this topic. So I called him up to talk 246 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: with him today about a fantasia and Art ed, when 247 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: did you first realize that your brain was different from 248 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: other people's. 249 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 2: Well, not that I ever thought it was like anybody else's, 250 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 2: but there was a curious thing that took place when 251 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 2: I was having dinner with a friend of mine who 252 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 2: was involved in visual meditation, and since I meditate, I 253 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 2: wanted to have him teach me how to do that. 254 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 2: So he said, well, it's simple. Just sit down and 255 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:25,360 Speaker 2: then close your eyes and visualize a ball in front 256 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 2: of you. Really simple. 257 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 3: So went home. I tried it. 258 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 2: I couldn't visualize a ball in front of me. So well, 259 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 2: I was weird for a week. I kept trying. Now, 260 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 2: when I went back to him, he said, oh, that's okay, 261 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 2: some people can't do it, But now my curiosity is peaked. 262 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: So I went to the person who was the production 263 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 2: designer Ralph Eggleston for Toy Story and several of the 264 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 2: Pixar movies. And I said, if you close your eyes, 265 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 2: can you see things? He said, of course I can. 266 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: And there's some people here who can do it so well. 267 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: They can open their eyes and trace what they see. Okay, 268 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: now it's interesting to me. Now, what's interesting about it 269 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 2: was that the surfaces that are used in the movies today. 270 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 2: We're from Jurassic Park, Toy Story movies, but almost everything 271 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 2: you see in the movies was based on a patch, 272 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 2: a way of making a surface that I conceived back 273 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 2: when I was at the University of Utah. 274 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 3: It's like forty five years ago. 275 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 2: And I remember very well the process in which I 276 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 2: did it, and that was I knew what the problem was. 277 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 2: I would write things on the whiteboard that's trying to 278 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 2: solve a problem about how to make a new kind 279 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 2: of surface, and then I would feel the problem go 280 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 2: down into my brain or subconscious It felt like it 281 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 2: was going down, and I stood in front of the 282 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 2: whiteboard and I rocked back and forth for twenty to 283 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 2: thirty minutes, this several times, and I knew something was 284 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 2: going on. 285 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 3: I had no conscious access to it. 286 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 2: And then something would bubble to the surface and I 287 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 2: would draw on the whiteboard and interact with it. And 288 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 2: when I would run into a problem, which I usually did, 289 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 2: back down, I would go this was a very real feeling, 290 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 2: but for all I knew, that's what other people did too. 291 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 2: So now I'm surprised because I came up with this 292 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 2: new way of making surfaces, but I didn't do it 293 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 2: with math, and I didn't do it with visualization. So 294 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 2: then I started to ask people that pixar, because I 295 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 2: would have weekly lunches with random people, can. 296 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: You just flesh out what the problem was. 297 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 2: At the time when I was starting, there were two 298 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 2: ways of making surfaces, one of them which was with polygons, 299 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 2: and the other one was with patches. 300 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 3: These were called beast blind patches. 301 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 2: They had a lot of flexibility and you could bend 302 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 2: them in certain ways and then you would stitch a 303 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 2: surface together with these four sided patches and they would 304 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 2: come together with four. 305 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 3: Corners from the different patches. 306 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 2: Now, because I had made an image of my hand 307 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 2: it was one of the first things I did with polygons, 308 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 2: I knew there was an inherent problem, and that is 309 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 2: stitching together four sided things where they come together at 310 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 2: the corner with each one has problems if you do 311 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 2: a hand or something simple like if you take a cube. 312 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 2: Just think about a cube. It's got six sides, and 313 00:20:55,440 --> 00:21:00,959 Speaker 2: it's got these four sided squares, but they come together 314 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 2: with three edges at a point, not four. Even if 315 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 2: for something as simple as a cube, four sided things 316 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 2: coming together with four at a corner doesn't work. 317 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 3: Since we were now in the early. 318 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 2: Stages, I wanted a patch where you didn't need to 319 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 2: have three come together at a corner. You had more flexibility, 320 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 2: very important. So I came up with a way of 321 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 2: doing that, and I proved that it worked once I 322 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 2: figured out how to do it. Mentally, I proved that 323 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 2: it worked using high school geometry. So I then went 324 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 2: to a professor with this idea, and I. 325 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 3: Showed it to him. 326 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 2: Was eighteen page lung proof, and I looked at it 327 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 2: briefly and he said, ed, what is this and he 328 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 2: tossed it back of me. Wasn't critical to my thesis, 329 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 2: so I set it to the side. And then after 330 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 2: I graduated, then Jim Clark we came up with paper 331 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 2: which then described it. 332 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: Let me just get it straight from the audience. So 333 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: it is how do you represent surfaces on a computer 334 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: and then you can do things like bounce light off 335 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: that and take care of color and stuff like that. Yes. 336 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 2: Yes, this is basically the underlying patches that you piece together. 337 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 2: And when you've got those pieces together, then there's a 338 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 2: separate question of how you put texture on them and 339 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 2: lighting and so forth. This is really the definition of 340 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: the surface. It's a geometric problem. 341 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: And this is what all animated films came to use 342 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: in the future. Yeah. 343 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 2: Yes, and so I and a couple of others received 344 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,959 Speaker 2: an Academy award because of this way of making services. 345 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: Now tie this back to your inability to picture the 346 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 1: sphere while meditating. 347 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 2: So, knowing that this took place, I went to these 348 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 2: lunches and I just talked about it with people and 349 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 2: I would say, Okay, if you close your eyes, can 350 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 2: you visualize something? How good are you at it? And 351 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 2: what I was finding was that their ability to visualize 352 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 2: among this random group of eight people at the table 353 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 2: was all over the place. In fact, in one of them, 354 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 2: the only person who couldn't or would report of they 355 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 2: couldn't visualize was an artist and everybody else who is 356 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 2: not an artist could visualize. So at this point it's 357 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 2: like this is getting stranger and stranger, and I was 358 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 2: wondering if there was if there wasn't even a strong 359 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,959 Speaker 2: correlation or any correlation between what they did and their 360 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 2: ability to visualize. 361 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 3: Now, at this point, I. 362 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 2: Don't know about authentation, never heard of it. It's purely 363 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 2: this curious phenomenon about the way people think. 364 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 1: The way they visualize, the visualize. 365 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 2: Yes, the next big step in terms of making it 366 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 2: a very strange phenomenon was that I had a dinner 367 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 2: with Glenn Keene. Glenn Keen is one of the best 368 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 2: hand drawn animators of all time. 369 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: He did The Little Mermaid and what else. 370 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, so basically he was the primary animator on those 371 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 2: course of films. So his Little Mermaid, Beauting, the Beast, Aladdin, 372 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 2: so the main characters they and they were done by Klan. 373 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 2: I mean, they were rather great animators too, but like, 374 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 2: this was the guy that was the best, and if 375 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 2: you watch him draw, it's pretty stunning. So I had 376 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 2: dinner with him and I explained the topic to him 377 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 2: and he just said, oh, I can't visualize either. 378 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 3: I've never been able to visualize. 379 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: In fact, I got into an argument with my mentor 380 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 2: at Disney, and his mentor was one of these the 381 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 2: famous nine Old Men of Disney who did the fields 382 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 2: from a long time ago. 383 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 3: Glenn really could draw, and the mentor knew this. 384 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 2: The mentor at one point said visualize it, and Glenn said, well, 385 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 2: I can't, and the mentor said, well, of course you can. 386 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 3: You're an anime. 387 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 2: So they had this argument about whether or not he 388 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 2: could visualize it is no, he really couldn't, so and 389 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 2: at this point is this. 390 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 3: Is really weird. 391 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 2: And then the next step was that, as my daughter 392 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 2: pointed out, this article in the New York Times about 393 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: Adam Zieman's work at Exeter in London. 394 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 3: The article. 395 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 2: Actually had a mistake in what it said, because it 396 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 2: wasn't what Adam had said. But what it reported in 397 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 2: the New York Times article was that there was somebody 398 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 2: who had a brain tumor and then they removed it. 399 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 2: But after this process he was no longer able to visualize, 400 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 2: and therefore they have found the center of visualization in 401 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 2: the brain. It turns out this isn't what happened at all, 402 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 2: but because that was what was reported, then I wrote 403 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 2: to Adam and said I can't visualize, Glenn Keith can't visualize, 404 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 2: and neither one of us have ever had a brain tumor. 405 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 2: So he then wrote back and he explained that the 406 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 2: article was wrong. But that's when I learned about the test, 407 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 2: the VIVIQUE. 408 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: Which stands for the Vividness of Visual Imagery Questionnaire. 409 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 2: Yes, I had that test, and I thought, oh, well, 410 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 2: this is cool because I have two studios, because I 411 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 2: was over both Pixar and Disney Animation, and we kept 412 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 2: the two studios fairly separate so they would have different 413 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 2: ways of thinking about things. And I thought, well, what 414 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 2: I will do is is I will give the test 415 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,479 Speaker 2: to the people at the studios, but I also asked 416 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,199 Speaker 2: them to answer some other questions, and in particular is 417 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: what was their job? 418 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 3: But what did they do? 419 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 2: And then with my daughter, who also can visualize, we 420 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 2: gathered the data from I think six hundred people filled 421 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 2: it out to look for a correlation between the ability 422 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: to visualize on what their job was, what they actually. 423 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: Did, and what was it you learned. 424 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 2: The people who had, I would say statistically better ability 425 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 2: to visualize were the storyboard artists who are conceiving of 426 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 2: the story and making drawings all the time of what 427 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,479 Speaker 2: the story might be. But they weren't a lot higher. 428 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,880 Speaker 2: They were just like statistically higher. But in that group 429 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 2: where people who had the hyper fantasia, and one of them, 430 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 2: for instance, would conceive of a film while driving home 431 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 2: because he had a forty five minutes an hour commute 432 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 2: every day, and he would play appropriate music for the 433 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 2: thing he was working on, and while he was driving, 434 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 2: he would basically build this scene in his head, and 435 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 2: when he was done with it, he could play it 436 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 2: backwards and forwards in his head and stop on a 437 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 2: frame and drop. It's hard to know about the quality 438 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 2: of the images because storyboard artists only need to make 439 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 2: the images good enough to convey the story part point 440 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:54,959 Speaker 2: and then they move on to the next one. 441 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 3: So he was at the hyperfantasia. 442 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 2: But every one of them said that when they did 443 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 2: this process, whether it's driving or walking, but they typically 444 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 2: did move around, and they always did it with their 445 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 2: eyes open while they're building up this visualization of what 446 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 2: they're doing. There were also these storyboard artists who were 447 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 2: extremely good who had a fantasia, and they actually worked 448 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: a little bit slower, but their drawings looked better, probably 449 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 2: because they were trying to convey something through the quality 450 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 2: of drawings. It wasn't until I brought this up to 451 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 2: them that they then talked about it with each other. 452 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 2: So there were people that are working together for fifteen 453 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 2: years and had no idea about this difference. The people 454 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 2: with a Fantasia were a little more likely to think, oh, 455 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 2: I'm not as fast as they are, I'm not as good, 456 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 2: but they never said anything. But the drawings actually looked 457 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 2: better and the quality of the stories was just as good. 458 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 3: But they knew there was a difference. 459 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: Okay, so let's zoom in on the artisan animators with 460 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: a Fantasia. So you mentioned earlier that the way Glenn 461 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: Keene draws is extraordinary. We've both seen him draw. How 462 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: would you describe that? 463 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 2: What we could see, and he would describe it this way, 464 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 2: is that he had something in him but he could 465 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 2: only get it out by sketching. His hand would just move, 466 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 2: and what you see are these rough drawings. Sometimes the 467 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 2: rough drawings were so rough at the early stages that 468 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 2: you didn't know where it was going until he worked 469 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 2: it out. But then after a few sketches, his drawings 470 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 2: would turn into rather remarkable pieces of artwork. 471 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: So he's having a dialogue with the page. But what 472 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: else when you watch him draw, If you're watching him 473 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 1: while he's drawing, let's say, on a computer screen, what 474 00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: do you observe? 475 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 2: Well, the thing which actually he didn't know at the 476 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 2: time because people didn't normally point a camera at him. 477 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 2: He was advising the other animators, but he never really 478 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 2: was interested or tried to use a computer animation. But 479 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 2: they all knew that he was had this incredible skill. 480 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 2: So he would dravo on the screen. His preference was 481 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 2: paper with a certain kind of pencil. It was actually remarkable. 482 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 2: He was completely obsessive about the kind of pencil and 483 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 2: the paper that he had. But he could draw on 484 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 2: the screen, and he did with his way of doing it. 485 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 2: And at this point somebody had an iPhone and they 486 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 2: just pointed at him while he was doing it, and 487 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 2: his body was acting out the emotions that he was doing, 488 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 2: so he was, you know, making those kind of faces, 489 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 2: and he wasn't aware of. What he was aware of 490 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 2: is that after a day of drawing, he was exhausted. 491 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 4: So for the audio audience, let me explain so, so, right, 492 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 4: if he is drawing a character that's surprised, his whole 493 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 4: body takes on an air of surprise, and his facial 494 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 4: expression is one of great surprise as he's drawing. 495 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: Or if he's drawing a character that's angry or laughing 496 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: or something, his whole body and face take that on 497 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: that character as he's drawing. And this is what we 498 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: call embodied cognition. Somehow he's understanding the character by adopting 499 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: that character's emotions in the moment, as opposed to simply 500 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: visualizing in his head and then jotting down what he 501 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: is visualizing. 502 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 2: Yes, whatever is in his head is coming out in 503 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 2: his body and in his drawings. It's amazing to watch, 504 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 2: and it was amazing people to watch how I would 505 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 2: do this. And the reason I related to this was 506 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 2: that when I was doing the surface work that I 507 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 2: was very aware that it was somewhere else in my 508 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 2: body that this was taking place, and I could only 509 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 2: get it out by drawing it on the whiteboard. And 510 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 2: then I was interacting at a level with it on 511 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 2: the whiteboard, seeing if it worked, and if it didn't, 512 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 2: I'd make modifications, and if if the modifications didn't work, 513 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 2: then it would go back into this place where I 514 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 2: no longer had conscious access to it, but I knew 515 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 2: I was working on so I would not disturb it. 516 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 2: That's why I rocked back and forth, because if I 517 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 2: went and did something else, then I would actually disturb 518 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 2: a process that I was aware of, but I couldn't 519 00:33:55,240 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 2: control other than protecting it. When we were at Lucasfilm, 520 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 2: we were trying to solve a whole number of problems 521 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 2: based on the fact that we knew that technology was 522 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 2: increasing at an exponential rate. So the fact that we 523 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 2: had such an incredible group of talent at Lucasfilm and 524 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 2: then a Pixar is what enabled us to convince other 525 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 2: people like Disney that we had the ability to make 526 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 2: really high quality images. Incidentally, I should note that for 527 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 2: the three people that started with the underpinnings of Rennerman, 528 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 2: Lauren Carpenter and Rob Cook being the other two, they 529 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 2: both had a fantasia also right. 530 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: I just ran into Rob Cook last week and I 531 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: asked him about this, and he was so surprised and 532 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 1: interested that anyone cared and was talking about this issue. 533 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 2: It was one of those things like there was no 534 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 2: reason for us to ever talk to each other about 535 00:34:54,600 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 2: it or ask, So we had no idea whatsoever route 536 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 2: and there was only after my daughter and I we 537 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 2: made the presentation and we talked about it that we realized, Oh, 538 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 2: none of us can visualize, but what we have is 539 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,800 Speaker 2: the underlying technology which is used to make images. 540 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: What is your hypothesis about why many artists and animators 541 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: and why you and Cook and Carpenter were able to 542 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 1: come up with these stunning visual technologies without being able 543 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: to visually image in your heads. 544 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 2: Our brains work in really interesting in different ways, and 545 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 2: we have different methods of getting it out and which 546 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 2: you know, this is like, it's appreciating that some people's 547 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 2: brain can work in a very different way and still 548 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 2: do something productive. And it's to value the fact that 549 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,240 Speaker 2: other people do things that we can't do in different ways. 550 00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 3: And that's actually, that's very cool. 551 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 2: I can't be like anybody else, and if I can't 552 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 2: be anybody like other people, and I can't be another gender, 553 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 2: I can't be another ethnicity, I can't be raised in 554 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 2: another culture. My brain doesn't work like other people's brains, 555 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 2: so it would be folly for me to pretend or 556 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 2: think that I should have those experiences instead of what 557 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 2: I have is like a faith that other people bring 558 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 2: something of great value, even if I can't experience experience it, 559 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:30,280 Speaker 2: and even. 560 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 3: If I don't know what it is. And for me, 561 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 3: this is an important thing. 562 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 2: It's really to have faith that what other people bring 563 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 2: is of value and I shouldn't be expected to fully 564 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 2: understand why, just that. No, that's actually cool, and I 565 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 2: want to have those kind of people around me. 566 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: I love that. Hey, I'm curious about your thoughts on 567 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: my hypothesis about this. Here's the way I started thinking 568 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: about this issue of artists. You know, between the two 569 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: of us, we know lots of artist and animators who 570 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: are a fantasic. And it's so counterintuitive at first, but 571 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: what struck me is that if you are a young 572 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,320 Speaker 1: child and you have let's say, hyperfantasia, and the teacher says, okay, 573 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: draw a horse, you're just drawing the horse that's in 574 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: your head. But if you're the kid with a fantasia, 575 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: you really have to stare at the model and really 576 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: look at it and figure out where the lines are. 577 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: You have a dialogue with the page and with what's 578 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: in front of you. That way, and that's why I 579 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: think children with a fantasia can under some circumstances, become 580 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: better artists because they're having to put the work in 581 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: instead of imagining that they already know exactly what's out there, 582 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: which may or may not be such a great drawing, 583 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: it might not be accurate. What do you think of that? 584 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:47,959 Speaker 3: There are a couple of things. 585 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 2: One of them is that I do remember when I 586 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:55,759 Speaker 2: was in elementary school that we had another kid in 587 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,839 Speaker 2: the class is you're like maybe fifth grade or something 588 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 2: like them, But when he drew, he was driving horses 589 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 2: and so forth. I was blown away as a kid 590 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 2: because they were at the professional level. 591 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 3: Right. 592 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,879 Speaker 2: I knew that I never knew what happened to this guy. 593 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 2: All I knew was that his abilities at that age 594 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 2: were remarkable. For me personally, I liked art, and I 595 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 2: drew a lot, you know, because I'd want to be 596 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,959 Speaker 2: an animat But the thing I appreciate was I did 597 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 2: have to spend a lot of time observing and trying 598 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,360 Speaker 2: to think about proportions. 599 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 3: And ratios and how the backgrounds came together. 600 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 2: I am very upset and irritated that when the money 601 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 2: gets tight in the schools, one of the first things 602 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 2: to go or the art programs, Well, what is art? 603 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 2: Art has a fundamental skill of observing. It's looking, it's 604 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 2: trying to see and understand. Which fields do we have 605 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 2: where it's not important to be observant. You like your 606 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 2: doctor to be observant, you know, and if you're an engineer, 607 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 2: you want to be observant. It's like in every one 608 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 2: of these fields. It's an important skill because people have 609 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:23,399 Speaker 2: the misconception that art is about drawing, when really art 610 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 2: is about seeing, and we have different ways of seeing. 611 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:32,799 Speaker 2: But developing those skills, however our brain works is actually 612 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 2: very important. 613 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: Is there anything else that you want to mention? 614 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 2: Well, there was one thing I was surprised at when 615 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 2: I went to the conference. Some of the people with 616 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 2: hyperfantasia said they wish they didn't have it because there 617 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 2: were things they would like to forget. So so, well, 618 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 2: that's really interesting. Actually, I've always had a crappy memory, 619 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 2: you know, I wish it were better, and trying to 620 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 2: make it better. I would read these techniques about the 621 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 2: memory palace, and it was only in retrospect that I 622 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 2: realized the memory palace never worked for me because they 623 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 2: couldn't see the damn rooms. But the fact that some 624 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 2: people didn't like it because they were remembering things they 625 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 2: didn't want. 626 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:22,280 Speaker 3: It was just very interesting. 627 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 2: The other interesting thing was one of the I don't 628 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,240 Speaker 2: know what through neurologists or psychologists there asked the question 629 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 2: of the general audience that if they were given a 630 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 2: pill that would reverse their abilities from hyperpantasia to aphantasia, 631 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:43,360 Speaker 2: but the pill was irreversible, how many would take the pill? 632 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 3: And about half the audience raised their hands. 633 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,760 Speaker 2: Now, in my case, I wish that I could see 634 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,080 Speaker 2: images from the past. I think part of it is 635 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 2: because you don't know what it's like to experience that. 636 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 2: Then you could say, oh, I would like to have 637 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 2: that ability. You wouldn't know whether or not it would 638 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 2: have negative consequences that would. 639 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,720 Speaker 3: Come with it, or for that matter. 640 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,319 Speaker 2: It's one of the things I look at was that 641 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 2: when I took my courses, because when I went to college, 642 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 2: I majored in physics, I judged a teacher whether or 643 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 2: not they gave me an intuitive understanding. 644 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:26,800 Speaker 3: And there were some teachers who. 645 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,319 Speaker 2: Basically were the philosophy you just follow the math, and 646 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 2: I would just say to myself, Oh, they're a crappy teacher. 647 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 2: I used to think they were crappy teachers, and there 648 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,840 Speaker 2: were some that would give you an intuitive feeling, and 649 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 2: when I got the intuitive feeling, I would do very well. 650 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 2: So then I wonder, Okay, was it the fact that 651 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 2: I had a fantasia which made me push harder to 652 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 2: get an intuitive feeling which was not a visual one, 653 00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,359 Speaker 2: and that having a fantasia may have been a great advantage. 654 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: For I'm so interested in how these things cash out 655 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 1: in terms of advantages, like for an artist or someone 656 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 1: trying to understand physics and having to work the extra 657 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 1: mile for it. 658 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 2: So I can't go back, I said, well, and I 659 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 2: would like to have had all the things I had, 660 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,200 Speaker 2: plus I want this other stuff because you know, it 661 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 2: may be the lack of certain things was actually in 662 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 2: create advantage for him. 663 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: That was Ed Catmull, co founder of Pixar and one 664 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 1: of the many a fantasics there. As Ed mentioned, he 665 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,400 Speaker 1: had posted a survey of his whole company and he 666 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 1: found that many of his colleagues, like Carpenter and Cook 667 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 1: were also a fantasiaic. And he found this was true 668 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 1: of many of his best artists. For example, you heard 669 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: us mention Glenn Keen Glenn is one of the godfathers 670 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: of animation. So a while ago I talked with Glenn 671 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 1: about this and here's what he told me. Quote, as 672 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,800 Speaker 1: I draw, I feel like my drawing is a conversation 673 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: and it's talking to me and I'm responding to it. 674 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,319 Speaker 1: So it's actually not a one way thing at all. 675 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 1: It's something that exists and I'm responding to it and 676 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,880 Speaker 1: pulling it out. End quote. And when you watch Glenn, 677 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,439 Speaker 1: he uses a lot of lines. He's feeling things out 678 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 1: as he draws. He describes it as a quest. We 679 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,280 Speaker 1: were talking about a particular film and I asked him 680 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 1: about what he might visualize if he needed to draw 681 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,759 Speaker 1: a scene where a girl has to jump off a 682 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 1: cliff into the water so she can get on to 683 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,920 Speaker 1: another shore. And in his words, he said, quote, I 684 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 1: don't have a visual on it, but I know exactly 685 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: the whole experience of it, and I can feel it 686 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: very clearly. And when Glenn sets to work on the 687 00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:03,400 Speaker 1: page sketch and feeling with the lines, the animation comes 688 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 1: to life. I'm going to put some videos of him 689 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:10,319 Speaker 1: working on these show notes at eagleman dot com slash podcast, 690 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 1: so check those out. It's really amazing to watch him 691 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,800 Speaker 1: work now again. A fantasie is not just for artists. 692 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 1: There's a million examples. I'll just take one. There's a 693 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,680 Speaker 1: famous software engineer named Blake Ross. He's the guy who 694 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 1: founded Mozilla, and he posted on facebooks and years ago 695 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,839 Speaker 1: that he had just stumbled on a fantasia. On his 696 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,600 Speaker 1: Facebook post, he wrote that this was quote as close 697 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 1: and honest to goodness revelation as I will ever live 698 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,440 Speaker 1: in the flesh. He went on to write, quote, I 699 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: just learned something about you, and it is blowing my mind. 700 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,720 Speaker 1: Here it is, you can visualize things in your mind. 701 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,640 Speaker 1: I have never visualized anything in my entire life. I 702 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,479 Speaker 1: can't see my father's face, or a bouncing blue ball, 703 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: my childhood bedroom, or the run I went ten minutes ago. 704 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:06,080 Speaker 1: I thought counting sheep was a metaphor. I'm thirty years 705 00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,439 Speaker 1: old and I never knew a human could do any 706 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:13,040 Speaker 1: of this, and it is blowing my mind. End quote. 707 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,839 Speaker 1: When he had accidentally heard about a fantasia, he right 708 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:21,120 Speaker 1: away began asking his friends what their internal experience was like, 709 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,360 Speaker 1: and his friends told him they could see things like 710 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 1: if he asked them to imagine standing on a beach, 711 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:32,360 Speaker 1: but the idea of a mental picture like that made 712 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,160 Speaker 1: no sense to him. Now what's interesting is that after 713 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,640 Speaker 1: his post, I saw one of his colleagues right on 714 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:42,279 Speaker 1: Twitter quote, I'm amazed and humbled that Blake Ross got 715 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 1: so good at user interface design at Mozilla, given that 716 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,680 Speaker 1: he has a fantasia. But this is the same thing 717 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,880 Speaker 1: with Ed Catmull. No one would have expected that the 718 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:58,239 Speaker 1: computer scientists who pioneered new methods for making three dimensional 719 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,800 Speaker 1: surfaces that allow you to capture the proper light reflection 720 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 1: and so on, no one would have guessed that he 721 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,319 Speaker 1: had a fantasia. But the thing I want to point 722 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:12,440 Speaker 1: out about Blake's post was his absolute amazement in discovering 723 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,319 Speaker 1: that other people were having a very different internal life 724 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,839 Speaker 1: than he was. It is hard to believe this when 725 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 1: you first learn about it, And calling back to the 726 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,120 Speaker 1: beginning of this episode, this is why it took so 727 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,439 Speaker 1: long for the debate of how we visualize to get 728 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 1: resolved in the psychology literature, because we all assume that 729 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:39,399 Speaker 1: everyone's experience is exactly like ours on the inside. Now, 730 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:43,319 Speaker 1: speaking of people's internal worlds being different, one of the 731 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,200 Speaker 1: classes I teach at Stanford is called literature and the brain. 732 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,840 Speaker 1: And one of the things that's been fascinating to me 733 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:56,800 Speaker 1: for years is understanding the fundamental differences between individual authors. 734 00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:01,080 Speaker 1: So I want to give you two very concrete examples. First, 735 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,400 Speaker 1: I want you to think about the level of visual 736 00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:07,400 Speaker 1: description here in this passage from Thomas Hardy from his 737 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:11,759 Speaker 1: novel Return of the Native Quote. The next morning, when 738 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,920 Speaker 1: Thomason withdrew the curtains of her bedroom window, there stood 739 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,680 Speaker 1: the may pole in the middle of the green, its 740 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 1: top cutting into the sky. It had sprung up in 741 00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,880 Speaker 1: the night, or rather early morning, like Jack's beanstalk. She 742 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,839 Speaker 1: opened the casement to get a better view of the 743 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: garlands and posies that adorned it. At the top of 744 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:37,560 Speaker 1: the pole were crossed hoops decked with small flowers. Beneath 745 00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,839 Speaker 1: these came a milk white zone of may bloom, then 746 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:47,120 Speaker 1: a zone of bluebells, then of cowslips, then of lilacs, 747 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,600 Speaker 1: then of ragged robins, daffodils, and so on till the 748 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:56,160 Speaker 1: lowest stage was reached. That's how Thomas Hardy writes. Now 749 00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,680 Speaker 1: I want you to contrast that with Ernest Hemingway, who's 750 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,440 Speaker 1: much less individual descriptions. Here's a passage from his novel 751 00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:08,279 Speaker 1: A Farewell to Arms quote. If people bring so much 752 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,520 Speaker 1: courage to this world, the world has to kill them 753 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,799 Speaker 1: to break them. So of course it kills them. The 754 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:19,239 Speaker 1: world breaks everyone, and afterward many are strong at the 755 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:23,400 Speaker 1: broken places. But those that will not break it kills. 756 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,480 Speaker 1: It kills the very good and the very gentle and 757 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:31,440 Speaker 1: the very brave, impartially. If you are none of these, 758 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,239 Speaker 1: you can be sure it will kill you too, but 759 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:38,400 Speaker 1: there will be no special hurry. Okay, so here's my hypothesis. 760 00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:43,520 Speaker 1: Ernest Hemingway is the felicition of literature, and Thomas Hardy 761 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:48,040 Speaker 1: is the costlin. In other words, I speculate that Hemingway 762 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,680 Speaker 1: was a fantasic and Hardy was hyperfantasic. Now I have 763 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,360 Speaker 1: no way to prove this, because their brains are gone, 764 00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,520 Speaker 1: but it seems a possibility to me that we might 765 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:03,640 Speaker 1: be able to make some crude retrospective neural guesses by 766 00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,480 Speaker 1: looking at how an author writes and what kind of 767 00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:12,440 Speaker 1: details the author assumes his reader would want. Presumably Hardy 768 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:16,120 Speaker 1: thinks that all readers are like him, and that everyone's 769 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,560 Speaker 1: going to love this description of all those flowers, and 770 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:23,960 Speaker 1: presumably Hemingway assumes that his readers are like him, and 771 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:28,800 Speaker 1: that they really care zero about the visual detail. In fact, 772 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,239 Speaker 1: in another spot, in a Farewell to Arms, Hemingway is 773 00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:35,600 Speaker 1: writing about the use of words in wartime, and he 774 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:41,520 Speaker 1: writes abstract words such as glory, honor, courage, or hallow 775 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:47,200 Speaker 1: or obscene, beside the concrete names of villages, the number 776 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:51,880 Speaker 1: of roads, the names of rivers, the numbers of regiments, 777 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:56,680 Speaker 1: and the dates. So I assert they were both writing 778 00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:59,759 Speaker 1: in the manner that made sense to them, and both 779 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,000 Speaker 1: of them put their workout into the world, and readers 780 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,840 Speaker 1: ended up buying their books, And presumably both authors think, yeah, 781 00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:09,480 Speaker 1: I know what readers want and I nailed it. They 782 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:14,000 Speaker 1: don't necessarily realize that they're attracting only a subset of 783 00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:18,280 Speaker 1: readers to their work. They have set up bug lights 784 00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:23,680 Speaker 1: at different ends of the fantasia spectrum. Okay, so we've 785 00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,640 Speaker 1: covered a wide territory from Disney to Catmull to Hardy 786 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,120 Speaker 1: to Hemingway. So let's see where we are. One of 787 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,960 Speaker 1: the conclusions that has come out of the study of 788 00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:39,280 Speaker 1: a fantasia and hyperfantasia is that there's no particular disadvantage 789 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,520 Speaker 1: to being at any part of the spectrum. There are 790 00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:47,560 Speaker 1: many ways to experience reality, and although we traditionally concentrate 791 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:53,400 Speaker 1: on disorders and diseases, neuroscience is increasingly examining the variety 792 00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,200 Speaker 1: of normal human experiences. And when we look at the 793 00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:01,360 Speaker 1: great engineers and animators around us, perhaps it shouldn't be 794 00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,560 Speaker 1: surprising that some of them are a fantasic and some 795 00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:09,080 Speaker 1: are hyperfantasic and everywhere in between. The last several years 796 00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,799 Speaker 1: have seen a lot of discussion about diversity, but traditionally 797 00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:16,960 Speaker 1: that conversation is only skin deep. Really, there are many 798 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:20,960 Speaker 1: many axes of diversity that we could attend to, and 799 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to do a future episode on this about 800 00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:29,560 Speaker 1: the heterogeneity of internal experience across the population. Today we 801 00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,400 Speaker 1: talked about the spectrum of visual imagery, but there's increasing 802 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:38,040 Speaker 1: study now in other forms of imagery. For example, there 803 00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:43,719 Speaker 1: are large individual differences in smell imagery. When you imagine 804 00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:48,920 Speaker 1: the scent of cinnamon, you're smelling with the mind's nose. 805 00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,680 Speaker 1: Some people can recreate the sensation of a smell like 806 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,560 Speaker 1: take lemon pie, as though the pie is present for 807 00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,759 Speaker 1: other people on the other end of the spectrum. This 808 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,400 Speaker 1: the mele of lemon pie is only conceptual. It's nothing 809 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,840 Speaker 1: like an experience. We find the same thing with hearing. 810 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:14,000 Speaker 1: When you imagine the Happy Birthday song or Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, 811 00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,960 Speaker 1: you are hearing with the mind's ear. Some people are 812 00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,680 Speaker 1: great at this. It's almost like they're listening to a radio, 813 00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,759 Speaker 1: and other people don't hear anything on the inside. What 814 00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,799 Speaker 1: is your capacity to imagine the feel of silk with 815 00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 1: your mind's fingers or imagine the taste of goat cheese 816 00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:37,200 Speaker 1: with your mind's tongue. Whatever your answer is, your best 817 00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:41,360 Speaker 1: friend's answer might be different. And these questions of imagery 818 00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:44,480 Speaker 1: reach beyond the senses. I can ask you to imagine 819 00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:48,560 Speaker 1: climbing up twenty flights of stairs. Now, some of you 820 00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:52,160 Speaker 1: can feel the sensation and your muscle and the movement 821 00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:55,520 Speaker 1: in the ache. This is called motor imagery, but for 822 00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,160 Speaker 1: other people they're not feeling it very much at all. 823 00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,839 Speaker 1: Or take something like the act of identifying your own 824 00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:05,960 Speaker 1: emotions or describing the emotions of other people. Some people 825 00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:10,440 Speaker 1: are really talented at this. Others have what's called alexithymia, 826 00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:15,600 Speaker 1: which means they're really bad at identifying describing emotions in themselves. 827 00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,800 Speaker 1: Or others, And it should be noted there are many 828 00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,880 Speaker 1: aspects of the human experience which, to my knowledge, have 829 00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,880 Speaker 1: not even yet been studied. As an example, consider the 830 00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:29,359 Speaker 1: degree to which you hear your internal voice. I don't 831 00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,680 Speaker 1: really hear much of anything. In contrast, some friends of 832 00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:36,680 Speaker 1: mine have what they call an internal radio. They sometimes 833 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,600 Speaker 1: don't hear other people when those people talk, because, as 834 00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,839 Speaker 1: they describe it, this speaker gets drowned out by the 835 00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,640 Speaker 1: internal radio. We joke about this now, but it took 836 00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:51,080 Speaker 1: us years to realize that there's this fundamental difference between 837 00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:56,200 Speaker 1: our experience on the inside. So there's so much variety 838 00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:59,320 Speaker 1: from head to head, and there's been so little study 839 00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:03,719 Speaker 1: on this in any previous generation. Why it's because of 840 00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:08,959 Speaker 1: our strong and natural intuition that everyone experiences the world 841 00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,560 Speaker 1: exactly the way that we do. But we're finally at 842 00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:16,000 Speaker 1: a point with science where we have the desire and 843 00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:21,080 Speaker 1: capacity to understand the differences on the inside. So now 844 00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:25,680 Speaker 1: we can finally undertake the endeavor to chart and explore 845 00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:31,560 Speaker 1: the enormous variety of the eight billion planets of the 846 00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:39,279 Speaker 1: inner Cosmos. Go to Eagleman dot com slash podcast for 847 00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:43,279 Speaker 1: more information and to find further reading and videos. Send 848 00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,319 Speaker 1: me an email at podcasts at eagleman dot com with 849 00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:49,840 Speaker 1: questions or discussion, and check out and subscribe to Inner 850 00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,960 Speaker 1: Cosmos on YouTube for videos of each episode and to 851 00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:57,120 Speaker 1: leave comments. Until next time, I'm David Eagleman and this 852 00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:03,279 Speaker 1: is Inner Cosmos, The Stunt and