1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: I'm tray Syne Wilson and I'm Holly Froy. So pretty 4 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: recently we got a complaint that we talked about too 5 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: many women, and we've gotten a complaint quite a few times. 6 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: So I did what we always do, and I counted, 7 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: but this time I had to be in my bonnet, 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: So I made a bunch of pie charts, and I 9 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: mean the pie charts show that there's never ever been 10 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: a year in the history of our time on the 11 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: show when we've talked about more women than men. Uh, 12 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: in spite of concerted effort to talk about a lot 13 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: of women. Um. And in response to this whole thing 14 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: of of of all the pie charts, a lot of 15 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: folks suggested that we only talk about women for the 16 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: rest of the year, which I get, I get that impulse. 17 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: I was already in the middle of working on these 18 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: two episodes when that whole thing happened. And it's actually 19 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: a really good example of why women are not the 20 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: only people that we try to make sure that we 21 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: talk about on this show. Because we're going to talk 22 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: about buyared rest in Today and Wednesday Byared Reston was 23 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: an openly gay Black man born in nineteen twelve, and 24 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: he spent his life working tirelessly for equal rights and 25 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: peace and democracy and economic equality, including being one of 26 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: the primary planners of the nineteen sixty three March on Washington. 27 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 1: And because of when he lived, rest in sexual orientation 28 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: became a really serious obstacle to the work that he 29 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:37,559 Speaker 1: was trying to do. So we're going to talk about 30 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: him a sid a moment ago into parts. This part 31 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: will go up to the late nineteen forties, and then 32 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: part two will pick up from there, and a little 33 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: heads up for parents and teachers. By necessity, we talk 34 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: about Buyared rest in sex life more in this podcast 35 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: than you might normally expect from our show. There are 36 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: also several incidents we're going to talk about in which 37 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: he and the people around him were subject of violence. 38 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: So this might be one to pre screen before sharing 39 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: it with the kids, or if either of those things 40 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: are things that you are sensitive to. So we're gonna 41 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: hop right in. Uh. Typically when we talk about the 42 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: biography of a historical figure, we start at the beginning 43 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 1: with their birth and then we walk through what's known 44 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: of their early life, And while we're gonna get to that, 45 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: we're going to take a slightly different approach to introducing 46 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: Bayard Rustin. Rustin was a member of the religious Society 47 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: of Friends, or Quakers. In his own words, quote, my 48 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 1: activism did not spring from being black. Rather, it is 49 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 1: rooted fundamentally in my Quaker upbringing and the values instilled 50 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: in me by the grandparents who reared me. So before 51 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: we talk about what he did that, we're going to 52 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: talk about who he was and how that grew from 53 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: his Quaker religion. As in the case with pretty much 54 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: every denomination, there's not one monolithic way of being a Quaker. 55 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: There are lots of variations and nuances from region to 56 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: region and from one congregation to another. And this even 57 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: trickles down to whether a person prefers the word Quaker 58 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: or the word Friends to describe themselves inspired. Ruston referred 59 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: to himself as a Quaker, we will as well. A 60 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: core of Quaker teachings are values known as testimonies. There's 61 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: also some variation in how the testimonies are defined or explained, 62 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,399 Speaker 1: and how people interpret them and incorporate them into their 63 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: lives day to day. As described by the American Friends 64 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 1: Service Committee, the six Quaker testimonies are peace, equality, community, integrity, simplicity, 65 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: and stewardship. In particular, Rustin spent his life trying to 66 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: embody peace, equality, and community. Throughout his life, Ruston resisted 67 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: and worked against oppression, inequality, and war, and he did 68 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,839 Speaker 1: it all through non violent means. He believed that all 69 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: human beings are part of the same community, and that 70 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: a central trait of that global family was that every 71 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: person and it was fundamentally equal. This belief informed his 72 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: approach to social movements that he actively participated in in 73 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: the United States, in India, and in several African nations. 74 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: Although a lot of the work he's best known for 75 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: was with the civil rights movement, Rustin also joined the 76 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: gay rights movement as it became more public. In the 77 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties. He worked with refugees, observed elections, 78 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: and traveled to Africa repeatedly, both to work with local 79 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: independence movements and to protest nuclear weapons testing being conducted there. 80 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: He went to prison for his non violent opposition to 81 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,239 Speaker 1: World War Two. All of these efforts united the themes 82 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: of non violence, equality, and a community of equals encompassing 83 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: all of humanity. There are several books and articles that 84 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: tie Rustin's integrity. Another of the Quaker testimonies to the 85 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: fact that he was an openly gay man and an 86 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: arrow in same sex behavior was illegal and when being 87 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: gay carried in an enormous stigma. But that's really only 88 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 1: part of the story. It's true that he never really 89 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: hid his orientation from people. When he was young, he 90 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: told his grandmother that he preferred to spend his time 91 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: with men, and her reply was, quote, I suppose that's 92 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: what you need to do. The people he worked with 93 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,239 Speaker 1: in the Pacifists and civil rights movements in the forties 94 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: and fifties all knew that he was gay. This was 95 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: long before the Stone All Riots brought the gay rights 96 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: movement into a more mainstream i At the same time, 97 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: he struggled with his orientation and how best to ethically 98 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: exist in a culture that so clearly classified his attraction 99 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 1: to men as wrong. It's far from universal, but a 100 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: lot of written accounts of gay men who grew up 101 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: in the U S when he did talk about this 102 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: sense of shame, guilt, and secrecy in terms of his 103 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: sexual orientation. Ruston never seemed to have that, and being 104 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: unashamed of who he was was something his partners and 105 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: the people around him noticed and commented on. However, there 106 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: were definitely occasions when his sex life had a huge 107 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: negative consequence to his life and work, and sometimes it's 108 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: frankly oiled down to some poor decisions on his part. 109 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: He spent a lot of time wrestling with his sexual 110 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: orientation and how to make it compatible with what he 111 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,679 Speaker 1: saw as his life's work when most of the world 112 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: saw it as immoral. So the idea that his simply 113 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: being out, or as out as a person could be 114 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 1: in that part of history was a mark of his 115 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: integrity is really oversimplified. I also want to take a 116 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: moment to say, we're not suggesting that people who were 117 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 1: not out did not have integrity, because life is more 118 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: complicated than that. Yes, indeed, uh, I mean we've we've 119 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 1: talked about it many times on this show, the period 120 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: of time in which it was not only marginalized and 121 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: looked down upon, but flat out illegal to be gay. 122 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 1: And he was not a perfect person, and there are 123 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: things we will discuss in these two episodes that seemed 124 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:56,679 Speaker 1: contrary to the Quaker teachings that drove by ARD's activism, 125 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: but even so, being a Quaker was critically important to 126 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: his and Quaker philosophies of non violence and peace building 127 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: were concepts that he returned to again and again. Although 128 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: Quaker teachings had a profound impact on so many aspects 129 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: of Fired Ruston's life and character, we'd really be remiss 130 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: if we didn't also talk about the influence of the 131 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: African Methodist Episcopal Church as well. His grandfather was a 132 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: member of the A. M. E. Church, and his grandmother 133 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: eventually joined it as well, essentially to keep the family peaces, 134 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: causing some tension between them. For her to be a 135 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,119 Speaker 1: Quaker in him to be in the A. M. E. Church, 136 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: so he was exposed to both religions and their traditions 137 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: in his childhood. Although the Society of Friends had been 138 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: a big part of the movement for abolition in the 139 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: United States and many had been active participants in the 140 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: Underground Railroad, many Quaker congregations were still predominantly white during 141 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: Ruston's formative years. Those that had black members often segregated 142 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: them into separate seating. The African Methodist Episcopal Church, on 143 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: the other hand had been found in eighteen sixteen as 144 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: a response to segregation in other Methodist churches. As a consequence, 145 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: the a M. E Church became a strong advocate for 146 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: black leadership and stress the need for black people to 147 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: take collective action to oppose racism and injustice, both from 148 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: the pulpit and in life. So and his life and 149 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: his work, Bired Ruston really combined the principles of Quaker 150 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: teachings with the advocacy focus of the a m along 151 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: with other philosophies and belief systems as well. Uh more 152 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: of those will reveal themselves as we talk about his life, 153 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: which we were going to start after a brief word 154 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: from a sponsor, So to get back to our story. 155 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: Bired Taylor Rustin was born on March March seventeenth, nineteen twelve, 156 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: in Westchester, Pennsylvania. The town of Westchester, which is not 157 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: far from Philadelphia, was established by Quakers in seventeen ninety nine. 158 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: It continued to have a predom monthly Quaker population, and 159 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: its black population grew as well, in part because of 160 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: its white Quaker community sheltering escaping slaves. Rustin's mother, Florence, 161 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: was sixteen when he was born, and his father, a 162 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: man named Archie Hopkins, was not in the picture. He 163 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: was raised by his grandparents, Jennifer and Julia Rusten, and 164 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: Florence was the eldest of their eight children. During his 165 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: earliest childhood years, the young Bayard thought his mother was 166 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: actually his sister. The Rustins were one of Westchester's most 167 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: respected black families. Jennifer was a steward at the Elks Lodge, 168 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: and one of its members rented him a ten room 169 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: home that allowed their large family to live pretty comfortably. 170 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: Julia's father was a pastor at one of Westchester's largest churches. 171 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: Julia herself did extensive community work. She was one of 172 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: the area's first members of the n double a CP. 173 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 1: If you do not know what that is, that is 174 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. After 175 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: it was founded in nineteen o nine. Some of the 176 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: nation's most prominent black leaders were guests in the rest 177 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: and Home, including W. E. B. D. Boys. Julia also 178 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: did lots of organizing and what might almost be considered 179 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: social work in her community, things like founding a nursery 180 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,239 Speaker 1: for the children of black working families during the Great Migration. 181 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: As huge numbers of African Americans started moving north. She 182 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: also used their home to house black newcomers to the 183 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: area who had nowhere else to go. Bayard's elementary education 184 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: took place at a segregated Westchester school. The local high school, though, 185 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: was integrated, mainly because the community itself wasn't large enough 186 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: to support a separate high school for black children. He 187 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 1: was a really good student, and he pursued a wide 188 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: range of extracurricular activities. He won essay contests and oratory awards. 189 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: He was also a poet and a singer with a beautiful, 190 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: very clear tenor singing voice. There are still some recordings 191 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: that exist today of him and his adult life singing 192 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: spirituals and protests, songs and Rustin was also an athlete. 193 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: He lettered in track and football, and his teammates told 194 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: stories about his sportsmanship, how he helped people up and 195 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: sometimes recited poems to them after he had tackled them. 196 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: So although Westchester had long Quaker roots, and Quakers played 197 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: a big role in the abolition of slavery, there was 198 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: still a lot of racial division in the town. In 199 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 1: addition to segregate his schools, theaters, and other public spaces. 200 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: There was a lot of racial tension among families in town, 201 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: and at tensions among its various European immigrant groups. The 202 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: prejudice ran deep enough that young Bayard was not allowed 203 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: in the home of his best friend, John Cessna, and 204 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: he also worried that Tessna's parents would be angry if 205 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: he brought John over to his house. They wound up 206 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: having their hang out time in the local public library. 207 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: There are lots of stories from Rustin's high school years 208 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: about his first protest for equal rights, and since most 209 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 1: of this knowledge comes from interviews conductedly eater, it's difficult 210 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: to pin down with precision. There are stories about him 211 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: being arrested for sitting in the white section of a 212 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: local theater and for refusing to move after being denied 213 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: entry into a restaurant. While on a trip with the 214 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: football team, he protested the segregated locker facilities at the 215 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: integrated high school, and he succeeded in changing that policy 216 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: when he got the team to threaten to refuse to 217 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: play an upcoming championship. Regardless of exact details, it's clear 218 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: that he was already focused on fighting for equality while 219 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: he was still in school. Once he graduated, though, things 220 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: became a lot more difficult for him. He had truly 221 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: excelled in high school, but he wasn't able to get 222 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: a scholarship to attend college. His family could afford at 223 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: most to pay his way somewhere local to Westchester. Eventually, 224 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: through personal connections, he finally wound up with a music 225 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: scholarship to Wilberforce University, historically black university in Ohio. But 226 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: Wilberforce University wasn't really a good fit. A lot of 227 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: it's offered courses at the time were more technically invocationally 228 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: oriented than the more liberal arts curriculum that Rustin really wanted. 229 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: R OTC participation was mandatory, which directly conflicted with his pacifism. 230 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: This experience was one of the things that would lead 231 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 1: Ruston to formally become a Quaker. Accounts differ on how 232 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 1: this actually played out. Either he was asked to leave 233 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: the school because he arranged a strike over the quality 234 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: of the food, or he left because the school just 235 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: wasn't challenging him. Back home in Westchester, rest and enrolled 236 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: at Cheney State Teachers College, another historically black college. This 237 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: one was founded by Quakers for black students. And it 238 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: was certainly a better fit for Ruston, but he wound 239 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: up leaving the area entirely to go to New York 240 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: City at the invitation of his aunt Bessie. Although he 241 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 1: originally intended to study at City College, this more or 242 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: less spelled the end of his formal education. And we'll 243 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: start talking about what he did beyond college after another 244 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: brief word from a sponsor, so to get back to 245 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: buy Art Rustin's life. Although he did not wind up 246 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: graduating from City College as originally planned, he did become 247 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: involved with more organized protests and resistance soon after getting 248 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: to New York. For a time he was a member 249 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: of the Youth Communist League. When he joined it was 250 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: not long after the Scottsboro Boys trial. These were nine 251 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: black teenagers who were falsely accused of raping two white women. 252 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: All the boys were convicted, and all but the youngest 253 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: was sentenced to death. The Communist Party led demonstrations and 254 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: raised money for the young men's legal defense. All of 255 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: these things, plus the party's focus on equal economic opportunity, 256 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: were really attractive to Rustin. However, when Nazi Germany invaded 257 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union in nineteen forty one, the organization dropped 258 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: its focus on racial equality in the United States and 259 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: part due to concerns that protesting against segregation segre aation 260 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: of the United States military, would ultimately weaken its efforts 261 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: to aid the Soviet Union. The Youth Communist League also 262 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: specifically told Ruston to stop his activism against racism. He 263 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: wound up cutting his ties to the organization and to 264 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: the Communist Party completely. He didn't stop with his activism, 265 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: though he registered as a conscientious objector. He began working 266 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: with socialist labor leader A. Philip Randolph. He also met 267 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: pacifist A. J. Musty at an American Friends Services Committee meeting, 268 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: and eventually began working with his pacifist social movement organization, 269 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: the Fellowship of Reconciliation as a field secretary. Through the 270 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: Fellowship of Reconciliation and other organizations, Rustin started organizing anti 271 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: war and civil rights protests, including traveling to Puerto Rico 272 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: to study the struggles of conscientious objectors living there. Often 273 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: he was the only black person and an other otherwise 274 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: all white team from the Fellowship of Reconciliation. He toured 275 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: the United States, making anti war speeches and organizing, and 276 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: in his speeches, he often presented anti war activism and 277 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: equal rights for black people as inextricably linked. It made 278 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: no sense, according to his philosophy, for a black person 279 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: to join a segregated military and then fight injustice on 280 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: behalf of a nation that would not grant him equal rights. 281 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: Back at home, In Rustin boarded a bus from Louisville 282 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: to Nashville and took a seat in the second row 283 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: that was in the white section. The bus driver told 284 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: him to move to the back and also called him 285 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: a racial epithet in the process. Rustin refused, saying that 286 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: segregation was unjust and explained that, in his words quote, 287 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: if I were to sit in the back, I would 288 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: be condoning injustice for the rest of the journey. At 289 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: every stop, the driver tried to get Rustin to move, 290 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: and Restin refused. Then outside of Nashville, police pulled the 291 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: bus over and four officers physically removed rested, and then 292 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: beat him in front of the other passengers. And later interviews, 293 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: he said that when they were done, he stood up 294 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: and said, there is no need to beat me. I 295 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: am not resisting you. Through all these tours and speaking 296 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,719 Speaker 1: his view on the war and the draft evolved. It 297 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: wasn't just that war was wrong. In his mind, conscription 298 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: itself was also wrong because it was dividing the whole 299 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: of mankind, which was supposed to be one community of equals, 300 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: into us and them. He also objected to the fact 301 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: that a person had to be a member of a 302 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: pacifist religion to become a conscientious objector. Non religious pacifists 303 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: were excluded. His experiences in civilian public service camps where 304 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: objectors were sent to also left a lot to be desired. 305 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: The camps themselves, like so many other places, were segregated, 306 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: so when the Draft Board ordered rest In to appear 307 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: for a physical and report to a civilian public service 308 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: camp on November thirteen, nine, he refused. He rescinded his 309 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,959 Speaker 1: prior request to be granted conscientious objector status, and he 310 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: was imprisoned at Ashland Federal Correctional Institution in Kentucky beginning 311 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty four. Once he got there, he tried 312 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: to integrate the prison, continually advocating integration to the warden. 313 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: Eventually he was allowed to teach a history class to 314 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: white inmates, and the warden had the gate that separated 315 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: the racial sections of the prison unlocked when Rustin used 316 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: this gate to enter the common area for white prisoners, 317 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: though another inmate, a former judge convicted on fraud charges, 318 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: beat him with a mop handle until it broke. Rustin's 319 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: wrist was broken in the attack on Several white conscientious 320 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: objectors who were nearby sustained minor injuries. Rustin, not his attacker, 321 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: was punished for it. I kind of want to take 322 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: a moment to say from this point, people tried to 323 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: brand fired Ruston as a draft dodger. That's not what 324 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: draft dodger means. Like a draft dodger is a person 325 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: who evades the draft by, for example, going to Canada. 326 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: That is not what Byared Rusten did. Byard rust And 327 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: refused the draft and served prison time. As a consequence, 328 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: Rustin's attempts to integrate the prison were derailed, unfortunately, by 329 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: a sexual misconduct investigation. This was an allegation that Reston 330 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: originally denied, but then he later acknowledged it is true. 331 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: He was also put into isolation for weeks, and some 332 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: of the other conscientious objectors who came to his defense 333 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: we're put into administrative segregation. This incident caused a huge 334 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 1: rift between Rustin and a j Mustie, who wrote him 335 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: a scathing letter blasting him for weakness for making such 336 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: a decision in the middle of efforts to integrate the prison. 337 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: He was deeply disappointed that Bayard had not only jeopardized 338 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: his work in the prison by engaging in sexual activities 339 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: with other inmates, but also that he had lied about it. 340 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 1: After a long series of meetings and interrogations, Ruston was 341 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 1: let out of isolation, where he resumed advocacy for integration 342 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 1: at the prison. After another series of protests and an 343 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: influx of new conscientious objectors to the prison that made 344 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 1: Ruston's advocacy seemed like more of a threat, he was 345 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: transferred to Louisbourg Penitentiary in uh In, Pennsylvania. He was 346 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: released in ninety seven after twenty eight total months incarcerated. 347 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: Throughout his time in prison, Rushton kept up a correspondence 348 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: with Davis Platt, his first long term partner. Rustin and 349 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 1: Platt had meant in nineteen forty three, and if anybody 350 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: in the peace movement had entertained doubts about Rustin's sexual orientation, 351 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: his relationship with Platt really dispelled them. Because prison correspondence 352 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: was monitored. They wrote their letters in code. These letters 353 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: progressed in their coded intimacy, especially after Ruston confessed to 354 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 1: his infidelity there and he vowed to be celibate for 355 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: the rest of his time in prison. The two uh 356 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: what even actually break up in ninety seven at Platt's 357 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 1: instigation because he wanted their relationship to be monogamous and 358 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,479 Speaker 1: Rustin had a lot of partners after he get out 359 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: of prison. Ruston was part of the Journey of Reconciliation, 360 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: which was a project of the Congress of Racial Equality 361 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: or CORE. This is a precursor to the Freedom Rides, 362 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 1: and if you're interested in learning about the Freedom Rides, 363 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,199 Speaker 1: there's a whole series of podcasts by past hosts on 364 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: those in the archive. The Journey of Reconciliation was meant 365 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: to test segregation laws after the nineteen forty six Supreme 366 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: Court ruling Morgan versus Virginia, which ruled that segregation was 367 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: illegal for buses that crossed state lines. Even though the 368 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: Supreme Court had ruled that segregating interstate buses was unconstitutional, 369 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: a lot of bus lines were either tacitly or explicitly 370 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: segregating them anyway, and a lot of writers, either not 371 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: aware of the ruling, not wanting to cause trouble, or 372 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: being genuinely fearful for their safety complied. The Journey of 373 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: recons Aviation was intended to put bus integration to the 374 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: test by sending both black and white riders out together 375 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 1: on buses to test the law. This was dangerous work, 376 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: and rested In the other writers faced continual opposition, including 377 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: violence and multiple arrests as they traveled through the South. 378 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: They were attacked and beaten by a mob of segregationists 379 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: in North Carolina, and it was rest In, not the attackers, 380 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: who was charged. He wound up returning to North Carolina 381 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: two years later after a lengthy series of appeals in 382 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 1: a botched defense to serve thirty days of hard labor 383 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: on a chain gang. He was released after twenty two days, 384 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: after which he spoke on the experience, as well as 385 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 1: publishing a lengthy report on the inhumane and abhorrent treatment 386 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: of the prisoners on the chain gang, and this report 387 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,479 Speaker 1: eventually led to some reforms, both in North Carolina and 388 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: in some of the surrounding states. In the interim between 389 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: the Journey of Reconciliation, in his return to North Carolina 390 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: to service sentence, Rustin did a lot. He testified before 391 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: the Senate Armed Services Committee on the need to integrate 392 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: the armed forces, something that finally happened on July with 393 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: Executive Order one. There is uh, there's film footage I 394 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: think it is of this this testimony. It may be 395 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: a different one where like he keeps answering the question 396 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 1: and then he takes a drag on a cigarette like 397 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: he's dropping a microphone. It's amazing. Also in don't smoke, 398 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: that's it's real bad for you. This was in when 399 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 1: people didn't really know that. Also in nineteen forty eight, 400 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: the American Friends Service Committee assigned Rustin to be it's 401 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 1: representative at a pacifist seminar in India. He had been 402 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: studying the pacifist teachings of Mohandaskan also known as Mahatma 403 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: Gandhi for some time, especially how those teachings could be 404 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: applied to a non violent resistant movement. This turned into 405 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: a four month tour of study and advocacy in India 406 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: following a brief stay in London. Although Gandhi had been 407 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: assassinated that January, Rustin was able to study with people 408 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: who had worked directly with him. He also spent a 409 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: lot of time speaking directly to India's own civil rights leaders. 410 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: Gandhi had been the keystone of its non violent focus, 411 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: and after his assassination, movement leaders were worried that younger, 412 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: more radical participants would take the movement in a more 413 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: violent direction. They really hoped that Rustin, as a black man, 414 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: would have an influence and reach that white pacifists simply couldn't, 415 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: considering that India had just become independent from a white 416 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: British government. After his return from India, Rusten wrote quote, 417 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: we need in every community a group of angelic troublemakers. 418 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: The only weapon we have is our bodies, and we 419 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: need to tuck them in places the wheels don't turn, 420 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: Which is where I got the title of this episode. 421 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: Yeah uh, and that's actually where where Tracy his cliff 422 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: hung us. Yeah. Well, and I originally where we're going 423 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: to pick up next time is the probably lowest point 424 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: in Rustin's life, and I originally intended to get through 425 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: that in this episode, but the time does not equate. 426 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: That's a whole additional chapter of stories. Have one really 427 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: long episode and one relief short one. Well, yeah, so 428 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna end kind of a high point. 429 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: Like at this point in Rustin's career, people were calling 430 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: him the American Gandhi, and they like he was on 431 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 1: track to become an enormously prominent and well known um 432 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: civil rights pacifist leader. Like that he was. He was 433 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: on that path, and we're going to pick up next 434 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: time with what derailed him from that path. Uh, just 435 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: kind of a sad story. So brace for that. But 436 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: in the meantime, you got some listener mail. Do you 437 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 1: have listener mail hanging on? Uh? This listener mail is 438 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 1: is it's a little bit, a little bit from back. 439 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: I'm still catching up from having been out for a 440 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: little bit with my mail. Um. And so this is 441 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 1: from Mary or Pat possibly Mary Ellen Um, that's not 442 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: quite clear. So uh, she writes to us about white 443 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: weddings and she says, hello, Tracy and Holly, I just 444 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,719 Speaker 1: listened to the episode on white weddings and you stated 445 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: that you didn't know whether plum cake was still considered 446 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: to be a wedding cake in the UK. I'm sure 447 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 1: loads of British listeners have written to tell you this, 448 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: but fruitcake is definitely still the traditional option when you're 449 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: looking to get a wedding cake here. Most people in 450 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: my husband's generation don't fancy it, but his parents and 451 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: older relatives all still say that you to be the 452 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: standard wedding confection. We even tried someone tasting for wedding cakes, 453 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: but we opted for something a bit less heavy. I'm 454 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: an American who met a British guy while living in Japan. 455 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: Having moved to England and done wedding planning here, I've 456 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: learned lots of surprising things, like the difference in traditions 457 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: like the cake. For example, it's common for the reception 458 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: to have two different meals. First is the wedding breakfast, 459 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: which despite the name, is just to sit down served 460 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: meal after the wedding ceremony. This has served to a 461 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: smaller group of people, as when the evening guests arrived 462 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 1: later there is usually a buffet style meal. Also, I 463 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: was prepared to have the best man and made of 464 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: honor give the toast, but I found out the traditional 465 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: way here these days is to have the father of 466 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: the bride the groom, and lastly the best man gives speeches. 467 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: I was learning a lot of little differences like that, 468 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: which surprised me as I thought American and British weddings 469 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: would be quite similar. Finally, just the side that I 470 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: thought you'd appreciate being fans of Queen Victoria. When my 471 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: husband and I got married at the City Hall here 472 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: in the northeast of the ceremony, room where weddings were 473 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: held was named quote the Victoria Room. Throughout the ceremony 474 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: we were under the stern gaze of Victoria's portrait. We 475 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,959 Speaker 1: went back in after to snap a photo with her 476 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: Majesty as well. She said to that photo, thank you 477 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: so much, Mary, or perhaps Mary Ellen. That is a 478 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 1: sweet story. It is. Their photo is very sweet. And 479 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: I love the idea of Queen Victoria because in my 480 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 1: head I think about her letters to her daughters saying, 481 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: don't have kids right away? Oh yeah, I um, we heard. So. 482 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: It was funny because after that episode, most but not all, 483 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: of the notes that we got about wedding cake in 484 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: Britain were from similarly Americans who married someone um either uh, 485 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: like somebody who had moved to the United States and 486 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: their parents were still somewhere in the UK, or like 487 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: someone who had moved someone moved someone who had met 488 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: someone in front the UK and was like going there 489 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: to get married. We've basically heard a lot of American 490 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: perspectives about what it was like to try to plan 491 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: a wedding uh in somewhere in like the whole realm 492 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: of the British Isles. Um, having grown up with the 493 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: expectations that are kind of ingrained in you in the 494 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: United States and sort of being like, what do you 495 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: mean this fruit cake situation? I don't talk. This is 496 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: not a cake, um. And some of these letters were 497 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: quite charming, so thank you very much everyone who sent 498 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: them to us. If you would like to write to us, 499 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: we're a history podcast at how stuff Works dot com. 500 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: We're also on Facebook at facebook dot com slash miss 501 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: in history and on Twitter at miss in History. We're 502 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: also on Pinterest at pinterest dot com slash miss in history, 503 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: and on Instagram at missed in History. If you would 504 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: like to learn more about what we've talked about today, 505 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: you can come to our website. Put the word Gandhi 506 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: in the search bar. You will find several articles about Gandhi, 507 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: his life and work. You can also come to our website, 508 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: which is missed in history dot com where you will find, 509 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: for example, the pie charts I talked about at the 510 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: beginning of this episode. You'll find an archive every episode 511 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: we have ever done. You will find show notes for 512 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: all the episodes Holly and I have ever done, which 513 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: I will link to some of the recordings of buyed, 514 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: resting and singing, so you can do all that and 515 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: a whole lot more at how stuff works dot com 516 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: or missed in history dot com for more on this 517 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics because it how stuff works 518 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: dot co.