WEBVTT - John Oates 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:22.356 Pushkin. John Oates is, of course, one half of one 0:00:22.396 --> 0:00:25.836 of the best selling pop duos in history, Hollan Oates. 0:00:26.476 --> 0:00:29.156 But before forming Hallan Notes and defining the late seventies 0:00:29.156 --> 0:00:31.996 and eighties with their signature sound, John was steeped in 0:00:32.076 --> 0:00:35.316 folk and delta blues, a sound he returns to on 0:00:35.396 --> 0:00:39.116 his new self titled solo album. On today's episode, I 0:00:39.156 --> 0:00:41.276 talked with John about the making of that new album, 0:00:41.516 --> 0:00:44.396 including the songwriting skills he's honed over years of playing 0:00:44.396 --> 0:00:47.876 with top Nashville musicians. He also shares a story of 0:00:47.916 --> 0:00:51.236 how he wound up playing Mississippi John Hurt's acoustic guitar 0:00:51.356 --> 0:00:54.196 on the first two Hall and Oates records, and the 0:00:54.236 --> 0:00:57.756 moment backstage at the Apollo Theater in Harlem when he realized, 0:00:57.796 --> 0:01:00.516 after performing with the Temptations that Hall of Oates had 0:01:00.556 --> 0:01:07.596 truly come full circle. This is broken record, real musicians, 0:01:07.836 --> 0:01:16.156 real conversation. Here's my conversation with John Oates. You can 0:01:16.196 --> 0:01:18.276 see the full video of this interview at YouTube dot 0:01:18.316 --> 0:01:22.316 com slash Broken Record Podcast. John Oates, thanks. 0:01:22.156 --> 0:01:24.036 For being here, man, well, thank you, thanks for having me. 0:01:24.116 --> 0:01:28.076 Real pleasure to have you here. Yeah, and you're you're 0:01:28.116 --> 0:01:30.316 you have a bit of a cold. I do you 0:01:30.356 --> 0:01:33.116 want a new guitar? But that's no excuse. No, you're 0:01:33.116 --> 0:01:33.956 a professional. 0:01:34.116 --> 0:01:36.556 I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring it. 0:01:38.036 --> 0:01:39.356 So you're are you going to do? 0:01:39.596 --> 0:01:39.716 Uh? 0:01:40.076 --> 0:01:41.436 Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee. 0:01:41.516 --> 0:01:44.396 Yeah, Well I'm really uh. I'm really thrilled that you 0:01:44.596 --> 0:01:46.996 actually know, first of all, know that song, and second 0:01:46.996 --> 0:01:48.596 of all that you requested it. Yeah, it's one of 0:01:48.676 --> 0:01:50.916 my favorites. Can I tell you a little story about 0:01:50.916 --> 0:01:51.436 it really quick? 0:01:51.476 --> 0:01:52.116 Please? Please. 0:01:52.436 --> 0:01:54.836 It was during the pandemic and I was out in 0:01:54.876 --> 0:01:57.956 Colorado spending some time out there, and I ran into 0:01:58.076 --> 0:01:59.916 a neighbor of mine that I'm known for over twenty 0:01:59.996 --> 0:02:03.556 years out in Woody Creek and we started talking, you know, 0:02:03.596 --> 0:02:06.076 because nothing was going on, you know, and nobody was recording. 0:02:06.316 --> 0:02:08.956 And he's a great lyricist. He's written songs for John 0:02:09.156 --> 0:02:11.476 and he even wrote a lyric for Frank Sinatra. 0:02:11.596 --> 0:02:11.796 What. 0:02:12.276 --> 0:02:17.156 Yeah, he's his name is Joe Henry and fantastic guy. 0:02:17.236 --> 0:02:19.156 And he said, man, he goes, We've known each other 0:02:19.156 --> 0:02:21.156 for twenty years, never wrote a song together. And I said, 0:02:21.356 --> 0:02:22.996 I said, man, I got time on my hands, let's 0:02:22.996 --> 0:02:24.676 do it. And so he came up to our little 0:02:24.676 --> 0:02:27.396 cabin and we sat down, and you know, songwriters always, 0:02:27.716 --> 0:02:29.636 you know, it's kind of hard to get started sometimes 0:02:29.636 --> 0:02:31.836 you don't know where you're going to start, right, And 0:02:32.156 --> 0:02:34.836 we start talking about the Blues because I was a fan, 0:02:34.916 --> 0:02:37.836 and everything started talking about Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee, 0:02:37.876 --> 0:02:41.116 the great, the legendary blues duo. And he said, you know, 0:02:41.476 --> 0:02:43.316 he said, you know, the story about what happened to 0:02:43.356 --> 0:02:45.436 them as they got, you know, on in their career. 0:02:45.796 --> 0:02:50.156 They really started to dislike each other. They had bad issues. Yeah, 0:02:50.236 --> 0:02:53.796 and so but as time went on, one of them 0:02:53.836 --> 0:02:56.276 lost his sight eyesight, and the other one lost this 0:02:56.356 --> 0:02:59.516 ability to walk, and they literally needed each other to 0:02:59.556 --> 0:03:02.116 get on stage, and it kind of brought them together 0:03:02.156 --> 0:03:02.476 in a way. 0:03:02.516 --> 0:03:04.196 And I thought, wow, what a story. 0:03:04.236 --> 0:03:06.996 I said, you know, not only is that an amazing story, 0:03:06.996 --> 0:03:10.236 but it's almost like a metaphor for or kindness and 0:03:10.396 --> 0:03:13.796 lending a helping hand, you know what I mean. And uh, 0:03:14.356 --> 0:03:16.236 I just thought, wow, what a great idea. And so 0:03:16.476 --> 0:03:18.516 we started out to do it. The song kind of 0:03:18.556 --> 0:03:22.036 about them, but it morphed into something greater than that, 0:03:22.356 --> 0:03:25.516 you know, and they became the vehicle for it. 0:03:26.476 --> 0:03:28.836 I have so many questions based on what you just said. 0:03:28.876 --> 0:03:31.276 But if you played the song first time, I would 0:03:31.316 --> 0:03:32.036 like to talk some more. 0:03:32.156 --> 0:03:33.836 Sure you know, I get to try. Like I said, 0:03:33.836 --> 0:03:35.276 I haven't played this in a little while, but I'll 0:03:35.276 --> 0:03:50.476 give it a try, right, I'll you'd be there for me. 0:03:53.756 --> 0:03:55.276 Well, I'll just pass it through. 0:03:57.356 --> 0:03:59.596 Trying to be the best that can be. 0:04:01.876 --> 0:04:06.876 I said, it has that's the funny that he's never 0:04:06.996 --> 0:04:16.076 strong and just that nothing gets the sided by drawing 0:04:16.276 --> 0:04:23.716 lines in the side. Talk about kid and you talk 0:04:23.756 --> 0:04:28.316 about sticks and stones, the philosopher's and fools. It was 0:04:28.356 --> 0:04:33.996 little dish with loaded barmable rubber to Roger to the gaping. 0:04:34.156 --> 0:04:41.996 But when they're d it's selling its in different kitties. 0:04:43.796 --> 0:04:45.436 He'll keep on drinking them. 0:04:45.436 --> 0:04:49.596 About what a dicky Walter. 0:04:52.436 --> 0:04:58.636 If you'll see it for me, sit selling it telling 0:05:02.476 --> 0:05:07.276 key kind of suffect. 0:05:10.076 --> 0:05:15.676 It's amazing leg stop saying that. 0:05:15.796 --> 0:05:16.796 Can't had done not. 0:05:18.876 --> 0:05:24.316 So I say him, yes it can. When you're stopping 0:05:24.356 --> 0:05:29.676 moving through the darkness, we chat home. Poon up the 0:05:29.876 --> 0:05:37.876 house that will bring us world begin and that's worth 0:05:37.956 --> 0:05:46.596 striving for us. Wine this believing until the truth is gone. 0:05:47.316 --> 0:05:51.076 He ain't learn loud again over his author carrying on 0:05:51.356 --> 0:05:55.756 the long dark night, but we'll wake up to the 0:05:55.916 --> 0:05:56.876 bright up dark. 0:05:58.556 --> 0:06:01.476 Just keep on, he's saying. 0:06:01.276 --> 0:06:01.756 Blue. 0:06:03.636 --> 0:06:07.156 Keys, and keep on dreaming bad. 0:06:07.276 --> 0:06:07.836 That could be. 0:06:10.356 --> 0:06:24.516 Waf you'll see for me, said Sunny, brothers are getting. 0:06:33.196 --> 0:06:35.716 I'll talk about to Reaven, talk about. 0:06:35.556 --> 0:06:38.956 Sticks and stocks, philosopher's influence. 0:06:39.476 --> 0:06:42.476 It was in Guys were loaded on Did a minute 0:06:42.716 --> 0:06:45.916 Brother to brother get to the third birthday? 0:06:50.636 --> 0:07:16.996 This singing the book was in the key said Sunny try. 0:07:18.036 --> 0:07:20.356 Amazing, thank you mans. I haven't played that in a 0:07:20.396 --> 0:07:20.916 little while, so. 0:07:21.476 --> 0:07:25.556 It was What I love about that is it's it's 0:07:25.796 --> 0:07:28.876 the pandemics about when I discovered that song, because you 0:07:28.916 --> 0:07:30.556 know it was it was around that time when everyone 0:07:30.676 --> 0:07:34.596 was just clicking onto different live streams and had some 0:07:34.676 --> 0:07:37.236 time on your hands, had some time and I don't 0:07:37.236 --> 0:07:39.396 know what last stream was, but I remember watching you 0:07:39.596 --> 0:07:41.676 play that. At some point I say, that's a really 0:07:41.756 --> 0:07:45.676 cool video live in the studio, so so cool. And 0:07:46.276 --> 0:07:50.076 it's when I realized you were like a I never 0:07:50.756 --> 0:07:54.156 you know, with Holland Oates, with you and Daryl Hall. 0:07:54.316 --> 0:07:56.676 You think of course soul music R and B. So 0:07:56.756 --> 0:07:59.476 I know it's there, but never really pegged you as 0:07:59.716 --> 0:08:02.636 either of you as like blues guys or or folk guys. 0:08:02.676 --> 0:08:05.556 But you know, and that's a that's like a it's 0:08:05.596 --> 0:08:10.156 a rootsy song but harmonically interesting, which not to say, 0:08:10.276 --> 0:08:12.956 you know, the blues isn't really always I know, it's 0:08:12.996 --> 0:08:15.556 so it's like that's a really cool blend of what 0:08:15.676 --> 0:08:18.796 people know you for in your career and and then 0:08:18.876 --> 0:08:20.396 this interesting part of you that I don't think a 0:08:20.436 --> 0:08:21.716 lot of people know about. You know. 0:08:21.916 --> 0:08:25.036 Yeah, well, you know, as a kid, that was my 0:08:25.196 --> 0:08:30.636 sweet spot. Folk music, rural blues, Delta blues, roots, American 0:08:30.716 --> 0:08:33.436 roots music. And that's kind of when I met Daryl Hall. 0:08:33.476 --> 0:08:35.836 That's kind of what I brought to the table. I 0:08:36.036 --> 0:08:39.836 was more of an acoustic guitar player. And then you know, Darryl, 0:08:40.036 --> 0:08:42.316 you know, had a different set of influences and we 0:08:42.476 --> 0:08:45.036 kind of combined things together. He learned from me, and 0:08:45.156 --> 0:08:49.316 I learned from him, and you know, that became the collaboration, 0:08:49.556 --> 0:08:52.276 became our sound and eventually, you know, was. 0:08:52.316 --> 0:08:54.596 He was he into? Like were you both into what 0:08:54.676 --> 0:08:56.796 each other had? Like in terms of was he into 0:08:56.836 --> 0:08:58.396 listening to blues? And were you no? 0:08:58.716 --> 0:09:01.236 No, no, no, he was into street corner doo wop singing, 0:09:01.316 --> 0:09:03.876 and also he was classically trained. Yeah, he sang in 0:09:03.956 --> 0:09:05.756 the church and that kind of thing. And he was 0:09:05.796 --> 0:09:08.516 a piano player, and so I was, you know, I 0:09:08.596 --> 0:09:11.076 was a prettyly acoustic guitar and I had all the 0:09:11.196 --> 0:09:14.556 rootsy stuff happening, and so he picked up a mandolin 0:09:14.596 --> 0:09:16.156 because he wanted to learn some of that stuff. So 0:09:16.276 --> 0:09:18.916 we started playing bluegrass and things like that, and then 0:09:18.956 --> 0:09:22.836 I learned some very more sophisticated chord voicings and stuff 0:09:22.876 --> 0:09:25.476 from him because of his great piano playing. 0:09:25.716 --> 0:09:28.596 Wow. I went on a journey after like discovering that song, 0:09:29.116 --> 0:09:31.836 and I went back and I found an old recording 0:09:31.876 --> 0:09:35.636 you guys did of Deep River Blues, which is Doc 0:09:35.716 --> 0:09:36.476 Watson stuff. 0:09:36.596 --> 0:09:36.716 Right. 0:10:04.556 --> 0:10:08.076 Oh, man, is it true you learned that from Doc Watson? 0:10:08.356 --> 0:10:10.516 Well, I learned it from his record initially, but I 0:10:10.556 --> 0:10:14.356 actually met him and his son, Merle, and you know, 0:10:14.476 --> 0:10:17.676 through I had a teacher, a guitar teacher in Philadelphia 0:10:17.996 --> 0:10:20.916 who became started as a teacher, who became a mentor 0:10:21.116 --> 0:10:23.436 friend and actually played on the first two Hole of 0:10:23.516 --> 0:10:27.876 Notes albums as well. And he he worked at a 0:10:27.956 --> 0:10:31.116 coffee house during the sixties when the Folk Revival was happening. 0:10:31.636 --> 0:10:34.596 So when a lot of these are these original artists, 0:10:34.996 --> 0:10:38.076 everyone from people like Doc and people like Mississippi John 0:10:38.116 --> 0:10:40.916 Hurt and Sunny Terry and Brownie McGee, all these folks 0:10:40.996 --> 0:10:43.876 were being rediscovered and brought up to the northern cities, 0:10:44.236 --> 0:10:47.476 you know, during the folk Revival. He got to meet them, 0:10:47.556 --> 0:10:49.236 and eventually, you know, they would stay at his house 0:10:49.276 --> 0:10:51.636 because of course a lot of especially the blues guys, 0:10:51.676 --> 0:10:54.356 come coming up from the Mississippi Delta. They had no money, 0:10:54.396 --> 0:10:56.316 they didn't know even had to live in a city 0:10:56.436 --> 0:10:59.116 or go to a hotel much less. Right, So I 0:10:59.196 --> 0:11:01.356 would go over to take lessons and you know, Mississippi 0:11:01.436 --> 0:11:03.236 John Hurt would be there sitting on his couch. And 0:11:03.716 --> 0:11:07.076 so I learned from the originators of all this stuff, 0:11:07.276 --> 0:11:09.236 and that's why I can do all this stuff. Of 0:11:09.276 --> 0:11:13.356 people didn't realize that you met Mississippi John Hurt. Oh yeah, what, Yeah, 0:11:13.396 --> 0:11:15.756 I have his guitar. What I have the guitar that 0:11:15.796 --> 0:11:17.796 he played at Newport in nineteen sixty three when he 0:11:17.876 --> 0:11:20.156 was discovered Get out of Yeah, how did you get that? 0:11:20.716 --> 0:11:20.836 Oh? 0:11:21.036 --> 0:11:26.716 Through a circuitous way, my guitar teacher Jerry Rix. After well, 0:11:26.756 --> 0:11:28.836 when he took John Hurt around, he took him to 0:11:28.916 --> 0:11:31.956 Newport Folk Festival, Philly Folk Festival, and he helped him out. 0:11:33.076 --> 0:11:35.836 So when John Hurt died, the guitar that he was 0:11:35.916 --> 0:11:38.956 given because when John Hurt was invited to Newport for 0:11:39.036 --> 0:11:40.836 the first time, he did not even have a guitar. 0:11:41.036 --> 0:11:41.276 Wow. 0:11:41.436 --> 0:11:43.276 So they took him to New York and took him 0:11:43.276 --> 0:11:45.516 to the Greenwich Village to a guitar shop and they 0:11:45.556 --> 0:11:48.836 said pick something, and he picked this Guild guitar, Guild 0:11:48.956 --> 0:11:52.716 F thirty and that was the guitar he played initially 0:11:52.796 --> 0:11:55.796 at Newport. And then of course the Guild company gave 0:11:55.876 --> 0:11:59.516 him a different guitar later on. So, but when John 0:11:59.596 --> 0:12:03.396 Hurt died, that guitar was given to my teacher, Jerry Rix. 0:12:04.076 --> 0:12:07.796 And Jerry went to Denver and he was working out 0:12:07.836 --> 0:12:10.356 there before he kind of atriated to Europe and never 0:12:10.436 --> 0:12:12.836 came back. And at the time he sold it to 0:12:12.916 --> 0:12:14.916 a collector out there who kept it in his basement 0:12:14.996 --> 0:12:19.916 for thirty five forty years and the guy died and 0:12:20.196 --> 0:12:24.956 his daughter had read where I well, actually, I know 0:12:25.036 --> 0:12:27.636 I'm going back a little bit backwards, back in seventy 0:12:27.676 --> 0:12:30.676 two when Darryl and I were first signed to Atlantic Records, 0:12:31.276 --> 0:12:33.116 going up to New York to make the first album, 0:12:33.276 --> 0:12:35.596 and I wanted Jerry to play with me because we 0:12:35.676 --> 0:12:38.316 played together so well, and he said, you want me 0:12:38.396 --> 0:12:40.196 to bring to John Hurt guitar so you can play it. 0:12:40.316 --> 0:12:42.796 So on the first two Hollow Notes albums, I'm playing 0:12:42.796 --> 0:12:44.436 Misissippi John Hurt's acoustic guitar. 0:12:45.116 --> 0:12:46.396 Yeah, we do you know what songs? 0:12:46.716 --> 0:12:46.876 Yeah? 0:12:46.956 --> 0:12:49.156 Had I known you better than on the Abandon Luncheonette, 0:12:49.316 --> 0:12:52.876 all the songs on the whole Oats album, anything that 0:12:52.996 --> 0:12:56.396 I'm playing acoustic guitar on, I'm playing that guitar. And 0:12:57.436 --> 0:13:01.796 so then so it was in a collection and the 0:13:01.876 --> 0:13:04.836 guy's daughter, I guess, just wanted to sell whatever he 0:13:04.996 --> 0:13:08.676 had had read about the fact that I used that guitar, 0:13:09.836 --> 0:13:11.916 reached out and then I bought it. 0:13:12.516 --> 0:13:14.636 That's incredible. It's amazing that it landed to like it 0:13:14.756 --> 0:13:18.196 was in your home stage. Yes, what's crazy, so convenient, 0:13:18.876 --> 0:13:22.356 that's insane. I mean, you guys are like both of you, 0:13:22.516 --> 0:13:25.236 you guys, you know by the way, I'm sure you do. 0:13:25.316 --> 0:13:28.756 You hate at this point that you know, I keep 0:13:28.796 --> 0:13:32.156 saying you but you know, you guys are tied by career. 0:13:32.436 --> 0:13:33.956 Even we're tied by a lot of things. 0:13:34.076 --> 0:13:35.716 The terms aren't so friendly these days. 0:13:35.756 --> 0:13:39.436 But you know, hey, listen, people grow up, they grow up, 0:13:39.476 --> 0:13:44.076 they grow apart. You know, Darryl and I we made 0:13:44.116 --> 0:13:46.996 something very special. We made something that that you know, 0:13:47.556 --> 0:13:50.356 I'm very proud of the music we made, the experiences 0:13:50.396 --> 0:13:53.396 we had. It's a miracle that we stayed together for 0:13:53.476 --> 0:13:56.996 fifty years. I mean, come on, most people, that's unheard of. Yeah, 0:13:57.916 --> 0:14:00.396 and you know, I have great, great memory, and I'm 0:14:00.516 --> 0:14:03.236 really really proud and honored to have been part of 0:14:03.316 --> 0:14:06.636 this incredible collaboration, made some music. I think we'll stand 0:14:06.676 --> 0:14:09.356 the test of time. But by the same tone, can 0:14:10.036 --> 0:14:12.276 you know I can't stay. It's like going to a 0:14:12.356 --> 0:14:14.956 great museum. You know, you're all excited about going to 0:14:14.996 --> 0:14:16.876 the museum. You're walking there also on your feet, start 0:14:16.876 --> 0:14:19.236 getting tired and said, damn, how many how many of these? 0:14:19.316 --> 0:14:21.636 How many these masterpieces gonna look at? I gotta get 0:14:21.636 --> 0:14:21.996 out of here. 0:14:23.356 --> 0:14:28.396 It's an incredible annalogy. It's weird, but there might be 0:14:28.436 --> 0:14:31.356 a song in that one. Yeah, but you know, you guys, 0:14:31.436 --> 0:14:33.276 and I'll just say, you know you guys are. 0:14:33.236 --> 0:14:36.996 Like, you know, your career, you guys are like a millions, 0:14:37.076 --> 0:14:40.556 you know, like there's this connection you have to these 0:14:40.636 --> 0:14:43.476 blues grates, which I never did not know that that's 0:14:43.596 --> 0:14:44.196 that's it's real. 0:14:45.196 --> 0:14:47.676 And then you know, if you think about there was 0:14:47.756 --> 0:14:50.196 like this very specific New York City scene that you 0:14:50.236 --> 0:14:53.276 guys got to experience in this very specific LA scene 0:14:53.356 --> 0:14:55.596 that you guys got to experience much less, you know, 0:14:55.716 --> 0:14:58.316 going back to Philly. And so you guys just have 0:14:58.436 --> 0:15:03.796 had these really unique like almost like uh you know, 0:15:03.996 --> 0:15:07.276 like musical uh what do you call that? Like not Senghali's, 0:15:07.356 --> 0:15:10.356 but you know, like that's at that far. You know, 0:15:10.636 --> 0:15:13.476 you just happened to turn up at all these kind 0:15:13.516 --> 0:15:15.196 of interesting we unctures. 0:15:15.356 --> 0:15:17.996 We had a lot of, you know, our our individual 0:15:18.196 --> 0:15:23.716 musical influences are when we were kids. Daryl lived about 0:15:23.716 --> 0:15:26.276 twenty miles from where I grew up in Pennsylvania outside 0:15:26.276 --> 0:15:29.916 of Philadelphia, in small towns, but we listened to the 0:15:29.956 --> 0:15:34.516 same radio stations and so when we met, even though 0:15:34.556 --> 0:15:37.876 we didn't know each other, we had this common musical 0:15:39.276 --> 0:15:42.796 lexicon that we could draw from. We knew these same songs, 0:15:42.956 --> 0:15:45.676 the same artists, the same we could draw from those 0:15:45.756 --> 0:15:48.596 things as a common ground, common musical ground, even though 0:15:48.836 --> 0:15:50.676 he was very different than me and I was very 0:15:50.716 --> 0:15:53.836 different from him. And that's what we used to become 0:15:54.076 --> 0:15:57.036 what we became. And then during that period of time, 0:15:57.116 --> 0:15:59.996 you know, when you're part of a partnership, you you 0:16:00.116 --> 0:16:04.516 subjugate a certain part of your not only your personality, 0:16:04.596 --> 0:16:07.956 but your musical personality for the good of the whole, 0:16:08.116 --> 0:16:09.876 you know, for the good of the the team, so 0:16:09.996 --> 0:16:15.356 to speak. And so I set the folky rootsie stuff aside, 0:16:15.476 --> 0:16:17.516 really and it was always there, you know, I'd sit 0:16:17.556 --> 0:16:19.236 in the dressing room and I'd be playing this kind 0:16:19.276 --> 0:16:21.276 of stuff all the time. But you know, it was 0:16:21.356 --> 0:16:24.156 never featured in the in the music. 0:16:23.956 --> 0:16:26.476 That we made. But you to your point, on those 0:16:26.516 --> 0:16:29.556 first two albums, you can get it to a decrease. 0:16:29.636 --> 0:16:31.596 We were trying to find ourselves. We didn't know who 0:16:31.676 --> 0:16:34.076 we were we could be. And it really wasn't until 0:16:34.076 --> 0:16:37.076 the Silver Album, which we recorded here in Los Angeles, 0:16:37.516 --> 0:16:40.636 that a sound kind of began a coalesce. And then 0:16:40.676 --> 0:16:42.596 of course it developed during the seventies and then in 0:16:42.636 --> 0:16:44.356 the eighties it hit its stride. 0:16:44.716 --> 0:16:48.636 Right right after this break. We'll be back with John Oates. 0:16:52.836 --> 0:16:56.156 I always wondered, and you know it's mast Is first. 0:16:56.156 --> 0:16:58.996 There so many things to ask With the Silver album, 0:16:59.796 --> 0:17:01.596 you guys were, like, to your point, in search of 0:17:01.636 --> 0:17:04.636 a sound not successful but not quite yet, kind of 0:17:04.756 --> 0:17:10.076 over the edge. If Sarah Smile hadn't randomly become a single, 0:17:10.116 --> 0:17:13.276 I mean, and it wasn't to say randomly randomly, It 0:17:13.316 --> 0:17:15.396 wasn't even released as a single. Just radio picked it up. 0:17:15.436 --> 0:17:17.836 That's right. People kept calling radio plays it some more. 0:17:17.956 --> 0:17:19.716 I said, okay, we better put it out at the record. 0:17:19.516 --> 0:17:21.436 Company finally said, hey, we've better release because we had 0:17:21.476 --> 0:17:23.116 released two or three singles prior to that. 0:17:24.076 --> 0:17:26.316 They did okay, good songs, but they didn't hit yeah, 0:17:27.276 --> 0:17:30.556 or didn't hit quite, didn't hit like that. So would 0:17:30.596 --> 0:17:33.516 you guys have kept searching at that point, I mean 0:17:33.596 --> 0:17:36.316 not that you guys. Would you have continued to try 0:17:36.396 --> 0:17:40.436 to find a sound that resonated with audiences. 0:17:40.756 --> 0:17:42.996 I think we would have. I think we would have. Well, 0:17:43.076 --> 0:17:45.676 let's put it this way. We we had made what 0:17:46.076 --> 0:17:48.036 at that point when Sarah Smile hit. That was the 0:17:48.236 --> 0:17:51.876 fourth album so three on Atlantic Records, three and a half. 0:17:51.916 --> 0:17:53.636 Because they put out a kind of the greatest non 0:17:53.716 --> 0:17:56.876 hits record called No Goodbyes. But the fact that Atlantic 0:17:56.956 --> 0:18:01.116 stuck with us with no real success commercial success was real. 0:18:01.196 --> 0:18:03.076 But what that was a that was a hallmark of 0:18:03.156 --> 0:18:05.996 the time. You know, if a record company signed you 0:18:06.116 --> 0:18:08.996 in those days, they they signed you because they thought 0:18:09.036 --> 0:18:11.516 you could have a career, they thought you could do 0:18:11.836 --> 0:18:15.596 you know, it wasn't just predicated on instant commercial success 0:18:15.716 --> 0:18:19.436 like it is today. So very fortunate to have grown 0:18:19.516 --> 0:18:22.196 up in that era, right. And then when Sarah Smile 0:18:22.316 --> 0:18:26.196 hit that, we had already switched to RCAA Records, and 0:18:26.356 --> 0:18:29.116 so then we began to really now, okay, now we 0:18:29.196 --> 0:18:30.756 got something going here. And then of course we had 0:18:30.836 --> 0:18:33.556 Rich Girl, and then they re released it She's Gone 0:18:33.596 --> 0:18:36.236 for the third time, and that finally became a hit too. 0:18:36.356 --> 0:18:38.396 So we had that run in the mid seventies, right, 0:18:38.556 --> 0:18:40.956 and to that point of fostering talent over the long term, 0:18:41.516 --> 0:18:44.116 She's Gone finally becomes a hit, and it's also seems 0:18:44.156 --> 0:18:46.796 to be one of the most enduring of the entire 0:18:47.196 --> 0:18:51.996 catalog some way, What what why? What preceded that switch 0:18:52.036 --> 0:18:55.276 from Atlantic to RCA Because it always to the guys 0:18:55.316 --> 0:18:58.076 were perfect for us, business, just purely business. 0:18:59.596 --> 0:19:02.036 We had so we made you got to look at 0:19:02.036 --> 0:19:04.076 it this way. We made the album called hol Looas, 0:19:04.116 --> 0:19:07.356 which is very folky, very singer songwriter. It was it 0:19:07.476 --> 0:19:10.156 was really just that some songs Daryl had, some songs 0:19:10.196 --> 0:19:12.556 that I had, and we were just like, Okay, we've 0:19:12.556 --> 0:19:14.716 got a record country, We've got to do something. We'll 0:19:14.716 --> 0:19:17.316 play these because that's what we got. It really wasn't 0:19:17.356 --> 0:19:19.676 until the abandoned Luncheon Net that we made an album 0:19:19.796 --> 0:19:23.516 that really was coherent, you know, in terms of the vibe. 0:19:24.196 --> 0:19:26.516 And so then we did those two albums, neither of 0:19:26.676 --> 0:19:30.356 which were commercially successful. So we went and just did 0:19:30.396 --> 0:19:33.116 a left turn and did a progressive rock album with 0:19:33.156 --> 0:19:34.116 Todd Runggerns. 0:19:33.796 --> 0:19:34.516 Both war babies. 0:19:34.596 --> 0:19:38.836 Yeah, and you know, we had no mandate to keep 0:19:38.876 --> 0:19:41.316 doing the same things. Well, if people don't like what 0:19:41.356 --> 0:19:43.996 we're doing, was just do something else. And then you know, 0:19:44.156 --> 0:19:46.756 then at that point, I think Atlantic had signed the 0:19:46.796 --> 0:19:49.956 average White band and they kind of had that thing 0:19:50.036 --> 0:19:53.236 that they wanted from us. And I love the I 0:19:53.316 --> 0:19:56.756 love those guys, but it just seemed like we had 0:19:56.876 --> 0:19:59.516 broken the mold there and I love Atlantic Records, and 0:19:59.516 --> 0:20:01.076 I was really proud to be part of that and 0:20:01.516 --> 0:20:04.356 be with a Reef Mardin, the great producer. But then 0:20:04.396 --> 0:20:06.076 we you know, we got a better deal at RCA, 0:20:06.316 --> 0:20:08.396 so we jumped ship and there you go. 0:20:08.836 --> 0:20:11.756 Did you you hear from anyone at Atlantic when the 0:20:11.876 --> 0:20:13.796 Silver album ended up doing what it did. 0:20:13.956 --> 0:20:16.516 No, they just immediately released She's Gone Again. 0:20:17.596 --> 0:20:18.956 So you know that there was a bit of them 0:20:19.036 --> 0:20:22.276 that was, hey, you know what, I'm glad they did. Yeah, yeah, 0:20:22.556 --> 0:20:24.036 I read at that time too, when you guys were 0:20:24.476 --> 0:20:27.276 looking you leaving Atlantic, You're going to go somewhere else. 0:20:27.516 --> 0:20:31.356 You guys met with Clive Davis. 0:20:32.476 --> 0:20:33.276 That wasn't until later. 0:20:33.316 --> 0:20:35.236 It wasn't untill later. Okay, you did meet with Clive 0:20:35.356 --> 0:20:35.636 the time. 0:20:35.716 --> 0:20:38.476 Timeline's a little off, Sorry, Okay, we met. We met 0:20:38.516 --> 0:20:42.796 with him later on. Actually in the early early eighties, 0:20:43.116 --> 0:20:46.156 when we started to have success on our commercial level, 0:20:46.996 --> 0:20:49.316 it was it was really you know, that's I don't 0:20:49.316 --> 0:20:50.516 even like to talk about it because it was a 0:20:50.756 --> 0:20:51.516 total business thing. 0:20:51.556 --> 0:20:51.676 You know. 0:20:51.676 --> 0:20:53.676 It was our manager. It was our manager looking for 0:20:53.756 --> 0:20:54.156 more money. 0:20:54.236 --> 0:20:56.796 Basically, Okay, all right, let's get these. 0:20:56.636 --> 0:20:59.276 Guys pre signed to another label, even before they can 0:20:59.356 --> 0:21:00.316 leave the label they're own. 0:21:00.596 --> 0:21:02.396 Got it, got it. I was just thinking about it 0:21:02.436 --> 0:21:05.036 because you know an addition, I mean, obviously Atlantic feels 0:21:05.076 --> 0:21:06.396 like it would have been a really good fit for 0:21:06.476 --> 0:21:08.316 your sound, not that our say wasn't. Obviously you guys 0:21:08.356 --> 0:21:10.436 did very well, But then I was also thinking like, 0:21:10.436 --> 0:21:12.476 oh yeah, Clive would be would have been an interesting 0:21:12.476 --> 0:21:14.396 place for you guys to land in away, because I'm sure. 0:21:14.396 --> 0:21:16.996 It didn't work very well with Clive. Clive wanted to 0:21:17.236 --> 0:21:20.476 micromanage the song selection and things like that, but that 0:21:20.916 --> 0:21:22.956 that's what he does and he's very good at it, 0:21:22.996 --> 0:21:25.556 and his track record speaks for itself, of course, but 0:21:25.676 --> 0:21:27.516 with us, it wasn't. It wasn't a good fit. 0:21:27.676 --> 0:21:30.516 Did you ever get that from RCA, that feel of 0:21:30.596 --> 0:21:31.076 they want. 0:21:30.956 --> 0:21:33.436 To We always were able to keep the record labels 0:21:33.436 --> 0:21:36.356 at arm's length. On the creative side. We made the 0:21:36.396 --> 0:21:38.356 albums we wanted to make in the way we wanted 0:21:38.396 --> 0:21:41.036 to make them. We made our album covers, and then 0:21:41.076 --> 0:21:43.996 we just said here, here's here it is, sell it, 0:21:44.116 --> 0:21:45.436 go sell it, figure it out. 0:21:45.836 --> 0:21:49.396 Yeah yeah, so you can't do that anymore? Well, no, 0:21:49.716 --> 0:21:50.156