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Speaker 1: Well, hey everybody, it is me Rosie O'Donnell. How are

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Speaker 1: you on this Tuesday? Are you doing well?

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Speaker 2: Listen? I got to tell you what happened.

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Speaker 1: I wake up on this school morning and I hear

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Speaker 1: the freaking lawnmower guy going and it's seven point fifteen,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know what to do. I'm thinking I

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Speaker 1: should go out there and go across the street and

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Speaker 1: talk to them, or next to my where it must

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Speaker 1: be right next door, you know.

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Speaker 2: So I get up, I.

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Speaker 1: Do my morning routine, I come downstairs and I see

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Speaker 1: it's my yard that has the guy with the weed

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Speaker 1: whacker and the blower. Now I live in a rented

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Speaker 1: house here, right, so I don't schedule the pool and

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Speaker 1: the lawn people. That's you know, taken care of by

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Speaker 1: the lord. But I was so mad. I was so

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Speaker 1: ready to go over and yell at one of my neighbors,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I was the bad neighbor.

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Speaker 2: So there you have it. That's what happened to me

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Speaker 2: this morning. Listen.

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Speaker 1: We have a very interesting show today, and I want

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Speaker 1: to give a trigger warning right up front. These are

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Speaker 1: issues that are discussed during my conversation. Rape, sexual child abuse,

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Speaker 1: emotional abuse and incest. And this discussion is not graphic

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Speaker 1: in any nature, but it's a truthful discussion of events

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Speaker 1: with those topics. So I want everyone to make sure

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Speaker 1: that they're ready to listen to this. It might be

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Speaker 1: hard for some people, and I'm acknowledging that. So here

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Speaker 1: we go. I'm going to be speaking with Lyle Menendez.

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Speaker 1: As you know, he and his brother were convicted of

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Speaker 1: the nineteen ninety six murder of their pa parents, Jose

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Speaker 1: and Mary Louise Kitty Menendez. Lyel Menendez is fifty five

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Speaker 1: years old. In March, I watched a documentary that presented

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Speaker 1: new evidence in their case, and the result of that

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Speaker 1: evidence now leaves them in a position where they may

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Speaker 1: be re sentenced. And that's the hope with new evidence

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Speaker 1: and a habeas And Lyle is very smart and he

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Speaker 1: understands all of this. And he and I have a conversation.

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Speaker 1: You know, he is in prison, and we left in

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Speaker 1: all of the interruptions with the prison telephone system. I

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Speaker 1: thought it felt real and provided some kind of a

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Speaker 1: frame as to his life for the last thirty four

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Speaker 1: years in prison. Now sit back and listen to myself

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Speaker 1: and Lyel Menendez.

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Speaker 3: Hello, let me merge you.

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Speaker 4: Hello, Yeah, I'm here.

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Speaker 5: Well today we.

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Speaker 6: Are going to have a long discussion with somebody that

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Speaker 6: you've heard of and you've had an opinion about. Probably

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Speaker 6: I've come to know him in the last few months,

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Speaker 6: and so here he is Lyeon Menendez.

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Speaker 5: Hello, Lyle, how are you.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Rosie? And we're doing pretty well, pretty well? Thank you.

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Speaker 7: Work in all, Andrew, A telephone number will be monitored

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Speaker 7: and recorded for.

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Speaker 6: Having me big news in your case that had came

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Speaker 6: out sometime in March about a former member of Menudo,

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Speaker 6: and tell everybody your father's connection to Menudo.

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Speaker 4: My father was a record executive in charge of RCA Records,

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Speaker 4: so had an huge number of artists and took an

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Speaker 4: interest in a Latin band, the boy band Menudo, and

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Speaker 4: befriended the producer and kind of owner of the group

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Speaker 4: in the early eighties, nineteen eighties, and.

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Speaker 6: So just recently a guy that had you ever heard

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Speaker 6: of Roy?

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Speaker 4: I have not really heard of any of the band

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Speaker 4: members other than Ricky Martin, probably like everybody else right

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Speaker 4: in the United States. You know, it was kind of

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Speaker 4: a big band, but the kind of names kind of

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Speaker 4: came to go because I kept replacing the teenagers in

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Speaker 4: the group.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, they as they got older, As they got older,

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Speaker 6: they kicked them out and got a new kid, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so it was a creepy concept from the beginning,

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Speaker 4: I guess.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, without it, without a doubt.

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Speaker 4: Right, And it turned out to be somewhat purposeful as

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Speaker 4: things have come out, uh in documentaries and investigations in

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Speaker 4: Puerto Rico and overseas. But uh so I did not

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Speaker 4: know Roy and didn't know the fact that he had

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Speaker 4: been uh right by my father and was another victim

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Speaker 4: came out through a documentary investigation they were doing on

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Speaker 4: the band, separately from anything related to Eric and I.

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Speaker 6: And that documentary has now kind of paved the way

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Speaker 6: for possible freedom for you and your brother.

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Speaker 4: Well, the trial always, you know, a large part of

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Speaker 4: the tild revolved around what do you believe was the

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Speaker 4: reason for the family violence in the case, And so yeah,

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Speaker 4: there was no question there was a gradual elevens was

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Speaker 4: presented in the second trial, a lot of it was excluded.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think I think that was something that really

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Speaker 6: surprised me. You know, the first trial, the one that

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Speaker 6: we watched on TV with Leslie Abrams and you and

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Speaker 6: your brother.

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Speaker 3: That trial was You were not found guilty in that trial, right, It.

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Speaker 4: Was like nine to three from manslaughter and that was

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Speaker 4: two juris. Eric was six to six and I think

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Speaker 4: that was nine to three, so it was not very

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Speaker 4: very close, right.

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Speaker 6: So in the interim after that, they decided to try

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Speaker 6: you again, right, But it's how many years?

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Speaker 3: Six years?

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Speaker 4: I know, I think it was like two and a

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Speaker 4: half years in between. It seemed like forever because it

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Speaker 4: was enough time for the La riots, the Rodney King

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Speaker 4: beating case to be acquitted of O. J. Simpson got acquitted.

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Speaker 4: His whole trial occurred in between our two trials, and

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Speaker 4: you know a number of TV movies were released, so

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Speaker 4: we really came into the second trial in a very

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Speaker 4: different position in terms of the public and the DA.

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Speaker 6: And the same judge that presided over your first trial

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Speaker 6: was the presiding over this trial, and they decided together

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Speaker 6: that they would not allow any evidence of the sexual

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Speaker 6: abuse to be used in the second trial.

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Speaker 4: It was extremely limited. So it pretty it put Eric

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Speaker 4: in a position to just sort of had to take

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Speaker 4: the stand and talk about it all without any real

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Speaker 4: supporting witnesses and family members that knew about it. So

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Speaker 4: of course, that made it much harder for the jury

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Speaker 4: to know what to believe. And then you had the

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Speaker 4: prosecutor that they changed the prosecutor to somebody who was

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Speaker 4: more aggressively willing to say that things were just not true,

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Speaker 4: even though I think he knew that probably wasn't the

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Speaker 4: case because he had excluded a lot of the evidence

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Speaker 4: that showed that certain things which are And so that

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Speaker 4: Joe changed some of the dury instructions. They asked that

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Speaker 4: the cameras returned off so the public couldn't watch. And

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Speaker 4: it just had that feeling of being sort of, you know,

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Speaker 4: a maneuvered.

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Speaker 8: To get a certain result, and then that did happen, right,

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Speaker 8: And the result changed your life in the world forever,

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Speaker 8: because you and your brother both got life without the

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Speaker 8: possibility of paroles.

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Speaker 4: Right, you know, we went from really thinking that there

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Speaker 4: was an argument about manslaughter to suddenly having the kind

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Speaker 4: of sentence that like a serial killer has.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: How old were you on that night in nineteen eighty nine?

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Speaker 4: I was twenty when my brother was eighteen.

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Speaker 6: Right, And the of you started in your house when

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Speaker 6: you were quite young. But for you, you had arrested

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Speaker 6: when you turned eight, correct.

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Speaker 4: I was, and I was sexual with you with my

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Speaker 4: father between like six and eight, and I complained to

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Speaker 4: a family member. She complained to my mother about it,

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Speaker 4: and so it stopped. It's hard to it. Told me

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Speaker 4: to know if it stopped immediately afterwards, but it seemed

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Speaker 4: like it did. And uh, and then it just I

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Speaker 4: and then clearly my father moved on to my brother, and.

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Speaker 3: Which was not known by you, not known by you.

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Speaker 4: I had some sense that something might have been going

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Speaker 4: on in my mid teens, but I confronted my father

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Speaker 4: and brother, and neither one said that it was true. Uh.

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Speaker 4: And I just sort of went into denial about it

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Speaker 4: and did not really hear about it again until a

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Speaker 4: week a little bit less than a week before August

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Speaker 4: twenty when the shootings occurred.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, the week before that occurred, you were in Princeton

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Speaker 6: with your mother, setting up your off campus apartment for your.

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Speaker 3: Starting school back at Princeton.

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Speaker 4: Correct. Yeah, I was supposed to start my sophomore year

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Speaker 4: in college at Princeton. I played for the tennis team,

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Speaker 4: and it was kind of my hometown too. Princeton's where

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Speaker 4: I went to high school, and some of the mother

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Speaker 4: wanted we saided having to move off campus closer to

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Speaker 4: my aunt. So they brought a condominium out there and

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Speaker 4: then she came out to help me furnish it, and

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Speaker 4: we had just finished all that. So I was just

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Speaker 4: in a very good place myself. Obviously, I came from

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Speaker 4: you very traumatic childhood, but you know, you kind of

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Speaker 4: sometimes you can survive your childhood and you go on

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Speaker 4: and you can function, you knows a good adult. I

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Speaker 4: felt like I was on my way. I was so fine,

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Speaker 4: and then I just kind.

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Speaker 2: Of hit this wall with Eric more after this.

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Speaker 6: So you came home and Eric was crying one day

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Speaker 6: and your mom was.

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Speaker 3: What state was your mom?

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Speaker 6: And at that point, this was a week after you

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Speaker 6: two set up your apartment in Princeton.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I really want to go through a

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Speaker 4: whole week if we can avoid it.

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Speaker 6: No, No, I was just saying I was trying to

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Speaker 6: just tell the people the things that I maybe didn't know,

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Speaker 6: and since being in contact with you and your wife

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Speaker 6: that I have found out that I thought was interesting.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to make you go through that, and

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Speaker 3: that's that I'm just.

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Speaker 6: Saying that that night something erupted and the truth of

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Speaker 6: your family's secret was revealed.

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Speaker 4: I mean, in a shorter sense, my brother was hoping

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Speaker 4: to go to was hoping that he would get out

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Speaker 4: of this situation he was in with his father, where

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Speaker 4: he was in a you could call it a you know,

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Speaker 4: he was in a sexual relationship with his father. Obviously

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Speaker 4: we know that that would be considered like rape and

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Speaker 4: abuse had been going on for a decade or more.

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Speaker 7: And.

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Speaker 4: He thought he was going to be able to live

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Speaker 4: off on campus at e c LA where he was

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Speaker 4: going to be starting school that September, and when he

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Speaker 4: was informed by his father that that wouldn't be happening,

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Speaker 4: he was going to have to stay at home. That

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Speaker 4: my brother knew that meant the abuse was going to continue.

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Speaker 4: There was really no way out, and hegan to feel suicidal.

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Speaker 4: And then he knew that I was about to leave

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Speaker 4: back to school in New Jersey on the other side

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Speaker 4: of the country, and so before I could leave, he

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Speaker 4: felt that he did sit to cry for help and

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Speaker 4: tell me what had been going on, and that kind

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Speaker 4: of cascaded into this last couple of days before what

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Speaker 4: happened of me confronting my father and trying to rescue

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Speaker 4: my brother from that situation, and that going horribly bad

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Speaker 4: and threats back, you know, threats back and forth and

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Speaker 4: turns to be threatening to expose my father and then

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Speaker 4: my mother, my mother entering it, you know, letting I

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Speaker 4: was realizing my mother knew in arguments with her, and

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Speaker 4: our feeling, our level of fear and just just you know,

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Speaker 4: just overwhelming, really emotion and just led to you know,

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Speaker 4: just horrific life changing events in.

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Speaker 6: A home where there's incests and there's secrets and there's abuse.

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Speaker 6: People who haven't lived in that kind of situation I

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Speaker 6: don't think fully understand how captive the child is to

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Speaker 6: their parent who is controlling them and grooming them and

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Speaker 6: abusing them.

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Speaker 3: In ways that they don't even yet understand.

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Speaker 4: Especially then, right, I mean, it just happened to me

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Speaker 4: in the seventies, that happened to Eric in the eighties,

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Speaker 4: and that you know where this is nineteen eighty nine

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Speaker 4: and it just wasn't you know, I'm ins interesting because

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Speaker 4: like the send generation today just assumes that, oh, well,

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Speaker 4: if you're having trouble at home, you talk to all

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Speaker 4: your friends, you post about it on social media, people

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Speaker 4: help you. And there was none of that back then.

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Speaker 4: You were very isolated. There was no Internet there was

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Speaker 4: no contacting friends, There was no school counselor asking what's

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Speaker 4: going on at home? How are you doing? Nobody knew

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Speaker 4: that there was a problem with sex abusive boys, Nobody

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Speaker 4: new to ask those questions. There was there was just

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Speaker 4: no cultural mechanism to believe or understand. And so to

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Speaker 4: that weekend, it's like, you know, I mean, I felt,

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Speaker 4: we felt. You know, it's hard to say, you know,

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Speaker 4: we look back and I feel like I can't believe,

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Speaker 4: Like it's easy to have for me to look back

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Speaker 4: and say, wow, I should have just found some way

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Speaker 4: out of that weekend without violence. But in the moment,

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Speaker 4: you just feel trapped and it's just overwhelmed and so

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Speaker 4: you know, and it just shatters everyone's lives. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: you physically you survive it, but emotionally you don't really

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Speaker 4: survive it.

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Speaker 6: No, And it comes back throughout you know, extent seconds remaining.

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Speaker 3: Sure yep O that.

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Speaker 5: Okay, thank you, sorry?

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Speaker 4: Where we're sorry that you have every fifteen minutes that

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Speaker 4: cut you off and you have to call that. I

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Speaker 4: think they don't think that if anyone in prison is

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Speaker 4: interesting enough to talk you for.

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Speaker 5: That's pretty fun.

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Speaker 2: Not the case.

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Speaker 4: Not the case.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so listen. So I think where we were was

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Speaker 5: talking about like the culture at.

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Speaker 6: The time too, that you know, people were not willing

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Speaker 6: to believe that fathers raped their sons. I think as

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Speaker 6: a culture, and there's enough proof and there's enough that

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Speaker 6: fathers raped their daughters, but when you put boys into.

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Speaker 4: The equation and.

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Speaker 6: People get all tabooed out, they don't they can't imagine.

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Speaker 5: It's too much for them to even consider.

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Speaker 6: And I think that if Eric was Erica and you

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Speaker 6: had found out that your father had.

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Speaker 3: Been raping her for all those years.

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Speaker 5: And you protected her, and this is the bad choice

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Speaker 5: that you.

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Speaker 6: Wish you didn't but did make at the time, you know,

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Speaker 6: people would have you as the role of a hero.

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Speaker 3: In society, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think it would have at least been something that

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Speaker 4: people understood better and could evaluate what justice is in

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Speaker 4: that situation.

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Speaker 9: Right.

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Speaker 4: And I just Eric and I could not get to

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Speaker 4: that point. Was in the in the early nineties a trial.

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Speaker 4: Half of their jury they were men, and all of

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Speaker 4: them afterwards, when they were talking about the jury deliberations

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Speaker 4: were making comments like, well, you know, he must be gay.

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Speaker 7: He could let's call and a telephone number will be

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Speaker 7: monitored and recruited.

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Speaker 4: It couldn't be that the father was forcing him to

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Speaker 4: have sex. And there's a total lack of understanding of

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Speaker 4: what interest is and related to boys, right, And I

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Speaker 4: don't even think it was accepted in the eighties and

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Speaker 4: early nize that that fathers or child predators like that.

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Speaker 4: I think it was. It was another decade or two before,

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Speaker 4: certainly another decade before after our trial, before people understood

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Speaker 4: that child molesters or could be your teacher, could be

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Speaker 4: your gym coach, could be an executive, a father, you know,

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Speaker 4: predators could be people like Bill Cosby or your you know,

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Speaker 4: household names, or you're just your neighbor. You know. There

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Speaker 4: was a sense that child molesters were kind of like

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Speaker 4: creeps and trench coach hanging around schools and not regular people.

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Speaker 4: And now, of course we know that's completely untrue.

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Speaker 5: Completely, there's no.

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Speaker 4: Type you can be. I mean, back then we were

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Speaker 4: dealing with lots of myths. Some of the jurists didn't

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Speaker 4: think that a married man could be somebody that could

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Speaker 4: also sexually abuse a boy. Of course, we know that's

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Speaker 4: not true now. A lot of the child molesters that

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Speaker 4: sexually these boys are married. Right, People didn't believe that

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Speaker 4: a woman would choose her her predator husband over her children.

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Speaker 5: Now that happens as well. That happens as well, Right.

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Speaker 4: A lot of times what the wife students, the husband's

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Speaker 4: at the point of bringing children to him. So we

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Speaker 4: just you know, as well as the danger that children

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Speaker 4: are and from parents, you know, I don't you know.

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Speaker 4: So there was just a lot of myths that we

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Speaker 4: were dealing with in the nineties that led to I

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Speaker 4: think it really bad result the trial, and yeah, I

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Speaker 4: don't know, I think it would be very different today.

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Speaker 4: I remember Dick Wolfe saying at a event that he

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Speaker 4: was at when he you know, he produced that timetime

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Speaker 4: series on our case, but I thought it was very

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Speaker 4: well done.

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Speaker 5: Yes, what was when we folcome right?

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Speaker 4: He thought we played Leslie Ayson right, just did a

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Speaker 4: brilliant job. And uh he said that he felt like

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Speaker 4: if culturally at the trial had taken place today, it

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Speaker 4: would have been a more clear manslaughter result. We would

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Speaker 4: have still done a lot of prison time, but it

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Speaker 4: would not be you know, in this situation that you

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Speaker 4: know has to be trying to superget, you know, change it.

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Speaker 4: You know, So I think, you know, I agree with that.

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Speaker 6: You know, you know, people don't realize when I tell

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Speaker 6: them that you've been communicating.

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Speaker 3: People say to me, oh god, what's he been in there,

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Speaker 3: like twenty years? I'm like thirty four.

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Speaker 5: Right, thirty.

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Speaker 6: People don't realize because you know, it was a cultural

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Speaker 6: moment for the country and everyone had their opinion on,

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Speaker 6: you know, whether or not you were in it for

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Speaker 6: the money, although there really was no evidence or proof

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Speaker 6: for anything of that besides the spending free that you

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Speaker 6: traumatize sexually abused incested children responded with a trauma response

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Speaker 6: after the freedom that that you felt, and as well

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Speaker 6: as the horror.

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Speaker 3: Correct, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that view evidence is one is why

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Speaker 4: it's for me personally. I think my brother too. We've

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Speaker 4: talked about it. It's so important to be believed, you know.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what the legal result is. Those things

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Speaker 4: are kind of out of our hands. We're obviously extremely hopeful.

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Speaker 4: Our families are very hopeful because you know, we have

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Speaker 4: our Our whole family supports us almost uniformly, which is

354
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Speaker 4: really just been a blessing and amazing and forgiveness, their understanding.

355
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Speaker 4: But I you know, I just being believed is so important,

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Speaker 4: you know, I communicate with I've communicated with just tens

357
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Speaker 4: of thousands of specs abuse victims over the years, and

358
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Speaker 4: the need to be recognized and believed for what happened

359
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:17,359
Speaker 4: to you is really powerful for healing. And so to

360
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Speaker 4: go through a trial where you know, there's a whole

361
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Speaker 4: prosecutor's office trying to tell the public, Oh, this is

362
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,400
Speaker 4: not true, don't believe it is such a horrifying thing

363
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Speaker 4: in itself. Yeah, it's very debilitating. So is something I've

364
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Speaker 4: struggled with over the last few decades, and so too,

365
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Speaker 4: you know. And then suddenly another victim comes forward, and

366
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Speaker 4: now it's like, yeah, it's very hard now for someone

367
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Speaker 4: to say they don't believe. That's pretty I mean, I

368
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Speaker 4: don't know how you say it now.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I agree, And that not only is the new

370
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 6: evidence of another victim of your father, but your brother's

371
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 6: letter was found by your mother's sister.

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Speaker 4: Correct, my father's sister, her son and the eric used

373
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Speaker 4: to correspond with him in the early eighties and late eighties.

374
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 4: I guess they were both teenagers, and she found a

375
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Speaker 4: letter for their growth and they had been in storage

376
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Speaker 4: for twenty five years. That wasn't about directly all about

377
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 4: the sex abuse, but referenced it pretty graphically, and so amazingly,

378
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,360
Speaker 4: she did not actually give it to anybody, my attorneys

379
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 4: or anything. She gave it to Barbara Walters for a

380
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Speaker 4: show because she just didn't think there were even any

381
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 4: appeals going on, and you know, just so much time

382
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Speaker 4: had passed by, she just didn't think about it. But

383
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 4: eventually we saw it on that show. People investigated and

384
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 4: realized that there was a letter that no one had found,

385
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,479
Speaker 4: had not been presented at trial, had been in storage

386
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Speaker 4: for twenty five years because her son had died in

387
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 4: two thousand and three, so she just packed everything up.

388
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 4: And so it's very powerful evidence because it was written

389
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 4: prior to eight months higher to my parents' death, so

390
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 4: it was something you know before, well the reason before,

391
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 4: and kind of proving what happened. So those two new

392
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 4: pieces of evidence they pretty much dispel the notion of

393
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Speaker 4: what happened in terms of the least sex abuse right right.

394
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Speaker 6: And and there's a whole generation of people now on

395
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Speaker 6: the internet who are college kids who were taught your

396
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Speaker 6: case in school, and they're all like, how the hell

397
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 6: did these kids get life without the possibility of parole. Well,

398
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 6: these two new pieces of evidence have given you the

399
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 6: first real shot that possibly.

400
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 3: Not spending the rest of your life in jail with

401
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 3: this habeas. Tell everyone what a habeas is.

402
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 8: I'm not a legal expert, but I know, but I

403
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 8: know you know what no more than me, what exactly?

404
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 4: Do not operate on yourself, so I don't try like

405
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 4: some of the guys in here in prison that are

406
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 4: legal peoples. But essentially if new evidence, in the case

407
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 4: of new evidence, you would file a habeous like for

408
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 4: you know, uh, you've seen a lot lot because of

409
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 4: the advances in DNA evidence, a lot of people that

410
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 4: were here for rape they've now been able to test

411
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 4: the sperm and realize, oh, that wasn't the rapist. So

412
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 4: what do you do in that situation where twenty five

413
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 4: years later you realize, oh that b I wasn't the rapist.

414
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 4: You file a habeas. You introduced the new evidence, and

415
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 4: an experienced habeast judge you know, evaluates the evidence and

416
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 4: makes a determination that this would have changed the verdict.

417
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 4: So it's the same in this case. You know the

418
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 4: fact that there's no powerful evidence, that there's at least

419
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 4: the underlying kind of foundational issues of sex abuse are true,

420
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 4: then would that have altered the juries verdict? I think

421
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 4: it's pretty obvious probably would. And the tourist, in fact,

422
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 4: after it had been interviewed, said that it would. Uh

423
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 4: and so, and then you have a whole first trial

424
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 4: where a lot of that evidence was presented and it

425
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 4: was a different result. So you kind of already know

426
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 4: that it would be a different result if it had

427
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 4: been presented, and so you know that creates a havio situation.

428
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 4: So what happens is a very experienced judge Downtown evaluates

429
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 4: it and has hearings and makes decisions. And I guess

430
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 4: my understanding is you can make any kind of decision

431
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 4: he wants in terms of like to just reversal to

432
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 4: a lesser sentence.

433
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 6: And it's let's say they re sentenced you and said

434
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 6: to you and your brother that it was vance water,

435
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 6: then you would have already served your time for that charge.

436
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 4: Correct, Well, we have served so much time. I mean

437
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 4: people who have been here for first degree premeditated murder

438
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 4: with no mitigative circumstances have gone and parolled in the

439
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 4: entire time Eric and I have been here. They've served

440
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 4: their entire time for murder and gone home. That's how

441
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 4: my time, Erica and I have done. We want people

442
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 4: go home every day. So we've done like three times

443
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 4: the amount that you would do on manslaughter. So I

444
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 4: don't know how much more time we would do. It's

445
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 4: kind of all new for us. Like you said, this

446
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 4: is just found in March, and Roy came forward this year,

447
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 4: so I don't know. More hopeful, We're very hopeful. And

448
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 4: asked a ninety one year old aunt, who's that my

449
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 4: mother's sister, and she was she desperately wants to see

450
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 4: if something happened before something happens to her, And so

451
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 4: we're just all very hopeful and anxious.

452
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 6: Nearly all of your family, your extended family, your father's

453
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,479
Speaker 6: and your mother's siblings and whatnot. Nearly all, not all

454
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 6: there's one right hold out or something, but nearly all

455
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 6: are totally forgiven you and your brother and are on

456
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 6: your side, and we're witness to the life you had

457
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 6: led when they were alive, right we have.

458
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 4: You know, I've been fortunate that because there's been so

459
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 4: much coverage of the trial and the evidence in the trial,

460
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 4: my huge extended family can see for themselves what happened.

461
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 4: Right right, And so they don't have to come to

462
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 4: prison and hear it directly from me. They can evaluate

463
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 4: it themselves. They can watch Court TV. A lot of

464
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,719
Speaker 4: them have. The entire trial is on Court TV's websites

465
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 4: that was recorded the first trial. You can just watch

466
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 4: my whole testimony itself. And so they have they have

467
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 4: to sort of come to the conclusion that they should

468
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 4: have been a manslaughter case and what happened wasn't. We're fair,

469
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 4: So they support us tremendously. They support some sort of

470
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 4: resentencing in this case. And you know, it's it's amazing

471
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 4: and very rare, very rare.

472
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 6: Also it's very rare is that you had no incidents

473
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 6: of violence before that evening in eighty nine and you

474
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 6: have had none, sense?

475
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:09,719
Speaker 3: Is that correct?

476
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 4: Yes? Yeah, My brother and I just that's another reason

477
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 4: my family just couldn't believe that we were even possibly

478
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 4: involved in this at first, because it's just what you.

479
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 7: Had sixty seconds remaining.

480
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 4: There's no violence in our history, there's no violence in

481
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 4: the thirty years in prison sense, and this is really

482
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:37,959
Speaker 4: just a horrific circumstance that you know, I realize now

483
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 4: like anybody's capable of things that you want to shock

484
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 4: you if it's the circumstances is horrifying enough, right, and

485
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 4: you're young, you know, especially if you're young and you're

486
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 4: not really you don't have the life experience to deal

487
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 4: with it.

488
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 6: Yes, well, when we come back, we're going to take

489
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 6: a little break here, come right back, and I want

490
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 6: to talk Lyele about that you have done since you

491
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 6: have been in prison, because I was very blown away

492
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 6: by your accomplishments.

493
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 2: That it's okay more after this.

494
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 4: M M.

495
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 7: With call and a telephone number will be monitored and recruited.

496
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 2: Okay, all right?

497
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 6: Uh yeah, So since we've gotten to know each other,

498
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 6: you know, I've been very curious into the way you

499
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 6: have chosen to spend your life in prison and U, Lyell,

500
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 6: it's it's rather pessive.

501
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 4: Well, we've had a lot of time to work on it.

502
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 2: You certainly have.

503
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 4: You certainly have.

504
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 6: Right right now, you're in the middle of a project

505
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 6: that you came up with, the beautification and Restoration project.

506
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 4: Is that the name, right? So I just what I

507
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 4: felt is that as corrections moved to figure out how

508
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 4: to deal with this terrible recidivism problem they're having with guys.

509
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 4: Coming right back, to prison after the trol which was

510
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 4: also obviously causing more victims in the public. They have

511
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 4: to think about how to do real bilitation differently, and

512
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 4: so they started to do a lot of real uiltated

513
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,719
Speaker 4: classes and evidence based programs to get people to uh

514
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 4: sort reduce their criminality. But they were they were struggling

515
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 4: to be successful, and I felt, my only experience was

516
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 4: that one of the reasons is because the living environment

517
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 4: was sending an opposite message. It wasn't a rehabilitated message.

518
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 4: It was kind of a message that it was dehumanizing.

519
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 4: It was very oppressive. It was kind of like, we

520
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 4: don't trust you to be a citizen out there. And

521
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 4: people tend to, you know, those that tends to be

522
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 4: self fulfilling, they will they will kind of people will

523
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 4: behave the way you expect them to sometimes. And so

524
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 4: I looked at some research on what they were doing

525
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 4: in Europe and in Norway, would change in the way

526
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 4: yards in prison yards look and the way you treat

527
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 4: each other in prison and building more of a centi

528
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 4: of community. And I felt like that could be done

529
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 4: in a California prison. So I asked permission to do

530
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 4: that here in kind of a sweeping project where we

531
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 4: would be all done through public donations, so wouldn't use

532
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 4: taxpayer money, and we would redesign the yard by putting

533
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 4: artificial grass and meeting spaces and water and natural elements

534
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 4: and kind of de emphasize the prison institutional aspects of

535
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 4: the yard facility and create authentic community that you could

536
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 4: then start really working on your rehabilitation and your change

537
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 4: in your own identity as somebody who was going to

538
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 4: be a productive citizen, that that wasn't something that you

539
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 4: should wait to release them into society, that you could

540
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 4: do it here at first show that that person could

541
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 4: do that and then release them. And so that's what

542
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 4: I've been working on for you know, half a decade,

543
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 4: and I think this will be a very important year

544
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 4: and installing a lot of this. We have the full

545
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 4: support of the up Admitted Strauation, and we're working with

546
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 4: local business and prominent members of the community to fund it,

547
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 4: including Guide Dogs of America who have a service dog

548
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 4: program here they're really helping, and other organizations. So it's

549
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 4: very exciting. I spend you know, a huge amount of

550
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 4: time on it. It's very helpful healing for me. It's

551
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 4: all done well through volunteerism, you know, service to others

552
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 4: is really a huge part of the rehabilitative process. And

553
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 4: now for my brother and I. My brother is one

554
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 4: of the better painters in the California system. So one

555
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 4: part of the project is that we're painting the sweeping

556
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 4: landscape murals all along the inside of the prison yard.

557
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 4: It's going to be the longest one it's completed. It

558
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 4: will be the longest continuous mural in a US prison.

559
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 4: It's about thirty three thousand square feet, all of it

560
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 4: through donated paint and all of it then by inmate artists.

561
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 4: It's pretty spectacular. I'm sure that all the pictures and

562
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 4: videos of it will all be available online at some point.

563
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 4: Some of it's already out there. Actually, if you googled

564
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 4: down event mural murals and an Inndoza should come up probably,

565
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 4: But I just said, you know, it's a big project,

566
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 4: but we're hoping it can be replicated at other prisons.

567
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 4: People are coming from all around to kind of see

568
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 4: the progress. You came in and that was a beautiful,

569
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:56,399
Speaker 4: beautiful day.

570
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a gorgeous, gorgeous mural. Uh, you know, it's

571
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 6: every way you stand in the yard. Where you turn

572
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 6: you you see beauty instead of just greatness.

573
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's pretty remarkable.

574
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's got great artists, and but it's

575
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 4: it's not to sort of make prison, you know, a

576
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 4: nicer place to do prison time. It has a direct

577
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 4: effect on recidivism and victimization out there. Like if you

578
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 4: treat a human like they're a people in the backyard

579
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 4: and you know, in an oppressive environment, you really can't

580
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 4: expect them to be released into the public and the

581
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 4: and understand how to be a good neighbor, right, and

582
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 4: they have to you know, you have to learn that here.

583
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 4: You have to treat people humanely and get them to

584
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 4: understand how to function in a community environment here where

585
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 4: you care for your neighbors here, and then that will

586
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 4: translate out there, you know. And so there's there's a

587
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 4: growing understanding of that now in corrections and legislature.

588
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 7: Let's call and a telephone number will be monitored and recruited.

589
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,439
Speaker 4: You know. I'm here on the ground obviously at prisoner also,

590
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 4: and so I just felt like, you know what, we

591
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 4: can do it from the ground up. I can organize this.

592
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 4: Let's try to do this year on at Donovan in

593
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 4: San Diego, and I appreciate the support of the administration

594
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:29,919
Speaker 4: and we'll see how it goes.

595
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,399
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's pretty it's pretty amazing that you were were

596
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 6: twenty one at the time and that you have accomplished

597
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:40,919
Speaker 6: so much while you were there.

598
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 3: You entered college right well, and in prison, one of

599
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 3: the first.

600
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 4: Year to do that. That was interesting. In in the

601
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 4: two thousands, I was the I was in a prison

602
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 4: of north and it was the only one out of

603
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,959
Speaker 4: three thousand midst that was taking a college course.

604
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 10: It was crazy, like I would literally sit by myself

605
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 10: in the classroom, the only one there. And I was

606
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 10: just ingrained in me to continue my education because I

607
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 10: had my family had a great deal of education prior.

608
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 4: To prison, so I was continuing that. I just thought

609
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 4: it was important for my own personal growth. You know,

610
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 4: I was very immature when all this happened. Contributed factor.

611
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 4: I felt I just wanted to continue my education. But

612
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 4: now you fast forward to twenty twenty three and most

613
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 4: of the inmates are in college classes and in school

614
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 4: almost everyone, and it's a really it's a big change.

615
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 4: I think it's a really healthy change. And one of

616
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 4: the I'm actually finishing my bachelors at UC Irvine to

617
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 4: get a degree in sociology and to have face to

618
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,720
Speaker 4: face professors that come in to get your actual bachelors

619
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 4: from you see Ravine. It's the first time they're doing it, so.

620
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 6: That I, well, that's fantastic, that's wonderful. Didn't you also

621
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 6: start a group for Life without Prisoners?

622
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 4: I started two groups. One was to help prisoners who

623
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 4: have sex abuse in their childhood's history, bringing doctors into

624
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 4: work with them, getting them to write out their stories

625
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,720
Speaker 4: and become comfortable with that because not coming to groups

626
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 4: is what happened to you as a child, can cause

627
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 4: you to victimize others, and you know it's a cycle

628
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 4: of abuse. So it's trying to help break that. So

629
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 4: I formed a group that works with that subject. And

630
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 4: then I formed a group of guys that are in

631
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 4: similar situations my brother and I where we have life

632
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 4: without the possibility of proll but we're all what's considered

633
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 4: youth offenders, meaning me that crime occurred before age twenty five.

634
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 4: My brother and I were on the low end of

635
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,399
Speaker 4: that with twenty one and eighteen, and so we kind

636
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 4: of get together as a group and try to keep

637
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 4: each other out of trouble and help mentor other inmates

638
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 4: and use our time, our experience in prison to help

639
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 4: others who are going to be getting out. And so

640
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 4: you know that's been very rewarding. Yeah, how.

641
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 6: How do you keep your spirits high? I know you

642
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 6: keep yourself very busy, you are a very busy person

643
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 6: even though you're in prison. But how do you keep

644
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 6: emotionally from not.

645
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 3: Looking at the horror?

646
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,399
Speaker 4: You know? Right? And and that's a good question because

647
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 4: suicide rates in prison are not good. Mental health issues

648
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 4: in prison, you know, depression and anxiety and disorders and

649
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 4: other things are high. But my brother and I like,

650
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 4: for me, it's family connection. I stay very close to

651
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 4: my family, my extended family. I've been married also in

652
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:50,280
Speaker 4: twenty years and to my wife Rebecca. So just family

653
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 4: connection is one way, and the other is just realizing

654
00:39:54,920 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 4: that the suffering that Erica and the experience in prison

655
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 4: is just unavoidable. Right, There's nothing we can really do

656
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 4: about that, but we can find fulfillment in sort of

657
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 4: a shared experience with others and finding productive ways to

658
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 4: use that experience, especially myself with an abuse history. There's

659
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 4: so many guys in here with abuse history is and

660
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 4: I have strong connection to the abuse community outside the prison,

661
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 4: So I have a large Facebook page in my public

662
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 4: figure page and my name and my family runs have

663
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 4: you know, I respond to mail, so I'm very connected

664
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 4: in that way. So all of those things together sort

665
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 4: of create a support for me. Yeah. Right, And you know,

666
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 4: I'm hoping also that if you know, if Eric and

667
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 4: I are released, that I've already talked to the administration

668
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 4: about continuing my work within the prisons, being able to

669
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 4: come back and continue to work with people here. Guys

670
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 4: here obvious I got this project reabilitated project here to

671
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 4: read this on yards. I would love to do that.

672
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 6: Isn't it true that the recidivism rates in Norway are

673
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,760
Speaker 6: like four percent, you know, and the recidivism r from.

674
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 4: Where you were seventy plus per they were seventy plus percent.

675
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 7: Let's call and a telephone number will be monitored and

676
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:21,280
Speaker 7: recruited through.

677
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 4: These new methods of change in the way our prison

678
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 4: yard looks and how you interact with the mats and

679
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 4: creating a sense of community, and they were able to

680
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 4: plummet it down to the twenties, which is pretty it's

681
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 4: really unheard of rashidivism met low, and in California it's

682
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 4: up in the fifty. It's very high. Majority of people

683
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 4: come up but come back. So that has to be changed.

684
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 4: It's too expensive. It's a public welfare, correct, right, So

685
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:51,439
Speaker 4: I think we'll change it, you know, I think we'll

686
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 4: change it.

687
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 2: How have you found.

688
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 5: Having the support of.

689
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 6: Your wife through this journey? I mean that must have been,

690
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 6: you know, a life saver in many ways.

691
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 5: It is.

692
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah. One of the things you learned though,

693
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 4: is that like when you're here, like your family suffers

694
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 4: with you. Yes, they suffer from from that absence. And

695
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 4: if I'm worrying about you, and it's no differently with

696
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 4: my wife, uh, as well as my expended family. So

697
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 4: they've been really brave and strong and supportive. She's been

698
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 4: tremendous from my hometown, New Jersey.

699
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 3: And she's a litigator. You know, she's a lawyer, is yeah?

700
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 3: Not in not in cases and business cases, right or something?

701
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 4: Do not let your wife handle your appeal? No, No,

702
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 4: that's not a good idea, right. It sounds cheap, but

703
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 4: I probably won't work out to it, right, Oh yeah, no,

704
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 4: But she's she's tremendous and put herself through law school

705
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 4: oppressive woman. Now with this, you would have to have

706
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 4: you have to sort of keep love in your life.

707
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 4: You have to stay because you know, you're surrounded by

708
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 4: heart conditions here. Yeah, uh, a suppressive environment. So I

709
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 4: just try to stay, stay connected to to uh you

710
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 4: know something softer.

711
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, keep listening, there's more to come.

712
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 9: M How did it come to be that you and

713
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,320
Speaker 9: your brother Eric are now in the same prison.

714
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 3: How did that come to be?

715
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 4: Well, we were. We were unfortunately separated when we first

716
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 4: came to prison. I think from all of the the

717
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 4: nineties and the conviction and the corrections kind of just

718
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 4: mirrors the public sentiment, and at the time in the

719
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 4: conviction in the nineties, there sent their assumption was be

720
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 4: very tenative with Lyle and Eric and separate them, and

721
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 4: so they did. I was very unfortunate. My family was

722
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 4: kind of horrified by it, and we stayed separated for

723
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 4: two decades. I worked very hard to try to get

724
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 4: back to my brother, couldn't do it. And then I

725
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 4: think as the culture changed and there was a lot

726
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 4: number of us, you had sixty seconds remaining sorry called.

727
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 6: Back sure, okay, So we were in the middle of

728
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 6: how you got to be reunited with your brother after

729
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 6: two decades.

730
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 4: Right, right, So they the corrections does kind of mirror

731
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 4: the culture, and I think the shift in the late

732
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 4: two thousand and where there was a number, there was

733
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 4: a year or two where there's quite a few documentaries

734
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 4: just like there is just now again on the case.

735
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 4: And Nick Wolfe produces a lot of order and he

736
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 4: did a prime time series that people can watch if

737
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 4: they want. It's very good. It was on NBC about

738
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 4: the case, and I think that the public learned a

739
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 4: lot about the case again at that time and felt

740
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 4: very strongly that maybe there wasn't a just result. And

741
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 4: then the last scenes in that show showed Eric and

742
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 4: I being separated after the conviction, and I think that,

743
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,720
Speaker 4: you know, there was a huge outpouring of concern about

744
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 4: and the kind of outrage about us being separated that

745
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 4: they went into corrections just apparently just overwhelming amount of

746
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:52,240
Speaker 4: email and other stuff, and they just the corrections chiefs

747
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 4: just decided that, you know what, that was probably the

748
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 4: wrong thing to separate them. At least now it's no

749
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 4: longer a good idea and not not right. They asked

750
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 4: me about it, We discussed it, and you know, this whole.

751
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,399
Speaker 4: You know, I'm here in large part because I love

752
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 4: my brother and you know, want to rescue him. And

753
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 4: do you know, we've just had that bond. I don't

754
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 4: know if it's it's traumatic bonding from going to a

755
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 4: childhood together like that, but we still feel it incredibly strongly,

756
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 4: and so it was a little it was unfortunate. Circums stated.

757
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 4: This is my wife, Rebecca lived right across the street

758
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 4: from me up in Northern California. When I had I

759
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 4: was in charge of the make government in Northern California,

760
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 4: representing the inmense with the administration, so I just kind

761
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 4: of was very established. So to leave, even ask to

762
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 4: leave and travel all the way across the state to

763
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 4: San Diego and start over with my brother was really

764
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 4: a big, a big deal, quite a big ill lot

765
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 4: to sacrifice there, and I just but it's just like,

766
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 4: I don't know, I never felt complete separated from Eric.

767
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 4: I just felt like I couldn't I couldn't find any

768
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 4: peace in it. And I told my wife for back a, look,

769
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,280
Speaker 4: I need to be with my brother. I just can't

770
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 4: do the rest of my life. Because we didn't know

771
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 4: that we would have this opportunity to get out that

772
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 4: we have now. So she she's gracious, she shows grace,

773
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 4: she understood and with the climate changing, they allowed me

774
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 4: to go and I was reunited with Eric, and that

775
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:29,720
Speaker 4: was pretty amazing.

776
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 2: Yeah what what did that moment?

777
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 5: I mean, you hadn't laid eyes on, had you.

778
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,439
Speaker 4: I hadn't know. We had correspondence approval so I could write.

779
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 4: But that was it. So he looked in good condition,

780
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 4: but older as he was correct and I was. But

781
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 4: I recognized them, Rosie, I recognize him. Of course it's

782
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 4: a good thing. Yeah, I would really that if I studied, Yeah,

783
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 4: with the wrong brother. Yeah, I'm over here low oh

784
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 4: on a cli So yeah, he.

785
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 6: I got to see both Lyle and Eric when I

786
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 6: went to visit the prison to UH to see about

787
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 6: this beautification and rehabilitation project.

788
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 3: It's it's pretty amazing.

789
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 6: I also went there to see about the guide dogs,

790
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 6: which Dakota is currently applied.

791
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 9: To get one, and I saw all the men who

792
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 9: train the dogs, one of them that.

793
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 3: That Dakota will be getting. It was it was pretty

794
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 3: overwhelming and fascinating.

795
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 6: But I saw you. I had seen a couple of

796
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 6: images of you online and then when I saw your brother,

797
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 6: I was like, he looks just the same, you know,

798
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:42,919
Speaker 6: to me, and he looked just the same.

799
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're kind of well preserved, right, because it's like

800
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 4: a big sargine can. Yeah, And so that's you know,

801
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,320
Speaker 4: we're relatively well preserved. But still it's a lot of

802
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 4: passes of time. Oh my god. And it was very

803
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,439
Speaker 4: emotional to see Eric and Hygeburston that's years of course,

804
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 4: have a moment a moment together and it was just

805
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 4: quite extraordinary. So there was work for all that work

806
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 4: to try to get here, and you live right next

807
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 4: to each other, and for work on a lot of

808
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 4: the same projects, work on something separately, and it's probably

809
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 4: some piece.

810
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 6: You mentioned just before that you never thought there would

811
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 6: be a bit of a chance of you getting out,

812
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 6: and now with this habeas and this new evidence, there

813
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 6: there truly is.

814
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 5: And have you and your brother discussed what that might

815
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,919
Speaker 5: be like for you to get out?

816
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 4: You know, right, I haven't done.

817
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 6: It, you know, I know.

818
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 4: I know you say you know you should, you should

819
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 4: will it into existence, you know what I mean, And

820
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 4: you talk about that, and I mean I get that,

821
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 4: but it's much it's a lot harder to do your

822
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 4: time in prison when you're focused on being out of prison, right,

823
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 4: So I really has too much responsibility to hear with

824
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 4: all this, and just I really want to do a

825
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 4: good job with it, and so I try not to

826
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 4: get distracted. I try not to do that too much.

827
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 4: And then of course you know, you never know if

828
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 4: you live in that world that is as fair as

829
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 4: you hope, and so I try to stay focused here.

830
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 4: But it is hard not to be hopeful. But my

831
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:24,439
Speaker 4: brother and I have not purposely I think not really

832
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 4: disgusted me and must.

833
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 6: Be hard to hope in there, just even hard to

834
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 6: like you as you say, you got to focus on

835
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 6: this minute, stay present.

836
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 7: Who's caol Andre? A telephone number will be monitored and recruited.

837
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 4: Yes, but it would be amazing to have another chapter

838
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 4: of life. And like I said, I have talked to

839
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 4: Corrections to try to see if I could continue to

840
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:48,839
Speaker 4: do the work I'm doing here, because that's what I've

841
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 4: been doing for twenty years to thirty years, SOLF. I'd

842
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 4: like to use that experience and keep helping here. And

843
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 4: the answer I've gotten is yes, absolutely Yeah.

844
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 6: There are some people life who have spent time in

845
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 6: prison and when they're out or imagine getting out.

846
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 3: They don't want anything to do with it.

847
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 4: Ever.

848
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 6: Again, they don't want to, you know, go fix the

849
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 6: library and the prison. They don't want They just want

850
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 6: nothing to do with it. I think it's very commendable

851
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 6: that you care about this population that you are a

852
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:22,280
Speaker 6: part of. For thirty four years of your adult life.

853
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 6: You had abused as a childhood. Yes you were rich,

854
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 6: Yes there was a privilege that came with it, but

855
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,320
Speaker 6: the horrors of incest can never be measured.

856
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 5: And you know, you went from that.

857
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 6: Kind of prison to this kind of prison, and freedom

858
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 6: as an adults has never been in your grasp.

859
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:48,439
Speaker 4: Really, Yeah, and exactly, and that was all beautifully said.

860
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 4: It's and prison is about the men that are here.

861
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 4: There are a lot of you know, I mean, they've

862
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 4: done some terrible things and they are doing you know,

863
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 4: health has pretty long, harsh sentences, and so a lot

864
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 4: of them are just not the same people they were

865
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 4: in their early twenties. And I think so many guys

866
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 4: here were like seventeen, eighteen, nineteen twenty, you know, and

867
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 4: now they're in their fifties and they should be. Most

868
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 4: of them will have a chance to get out, and

869
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 4: so what kind of person do you want living next

870
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 4: to you out there? You know? So I feel like

871
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 4: I don't think it's a good idea for me to

872
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 4: turn my back on the men here in corrections here

873
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 4: just because I've been released. That doesn't sound right. It

874
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 4: doesn't feel right. And so I would like to continue

875
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 4: to use that experience to work work on in recidivism

876
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 4: rates and rehabilitation in prison. I think I can do it,

877
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 4: and I'm just happy that there's support for that.

878
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, I really thank you. There's tremendous support for you

879
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 5: out here, Lyle.

880
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 6: And you know, I have shared our friendship with a

881
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 6: lot of my friends, and all but one was, you know,

882
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 6: very interested in hearing. Who is the man that I

883
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 6: have come to know is and uh And I am

884
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 6: happy to say that you know, you have become a

885
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 6: true real friend and uh And I always believed what

886
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 6: you said. I saw your brother and you testify, and

887
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:19,759
Speaker 6: I knew that there was no actor in the world

888
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:22,320
Speaker 6: who could act that unless they had lived it.

889
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 3: And and you're not even an actor.

890
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 5: So but I could see you as a speaker.

891
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 3: I could see you writing a book about your experience.

892
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 3: I can see you.

893
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 6: Continuing to help in the in the Corrections World and uh,

894
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 6: you know you have not wasted a moment of your

895
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 6: life in there, uh, Lyle, and it's it's quite impressive.

896
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 4: Well, you have your time on earth that you have,

897
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 4: and I just feel like I just didn't want to hide,

898
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:54,480
Speaker 4: uh in the shadows of of you know what, all

899
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:56,839
Speaker 4: the publicity, and so I know that there are guys

900
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:58,840
Speaker 4: would do that, and I just felt like, you know what,

901
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 4: allowed to do something with your life that's you know, productive,

902
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 4: be a part of this community, you know, help and uh,

903
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 4: it's been great fulfillment. So I want to continue that. Well,

904
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,240
Speaker 4: I think you do that. I think it's very obvious.

905
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 4: And so that's one of the reasons that I wanted

906
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 4: to do the podcast with you and be friend you.

907
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 4: And I don't know if you mentioned it on the podcast,

908
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 4: but you know I wrote you way back in the

909
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 4: early nineties.

910
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 3: That's right. Yeah, yeah, that's right when my show was gone, right.

911
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:34,840
Speaker 4: And I had a feeling that you had a similar

912
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 4: history that I had in some ways. I just could

913
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 4: feel it for some reason. Uh, and survivors are connected

914
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 4: like that.

915
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 3: Yes, I completely agree with you. I completely annoy and

916
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 3: you're hypervigilance so to.

917
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 7: Call and a telephone number will be monitored and recruited.

918
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 4: You know.

919
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 6: The hypervigilance that you develop in a house with that

920
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:59,240
Speaker 6: going on, you know, continues after you're out of the house,

921
00:54:59,320 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 6: but it's still a.

922
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 4: Mind game, you know.

923
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 3: Hypervigilant has everyone's mood. Who's where, what's happening?

924
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 4: You know.

925
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 6: It's it's a very corrosive, corrupting and devastating, uh situation

926
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 6: in so many homes in the country, and it's a

927
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 6: problem that we ignore largely, and we ignore it more

928
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 6: when it happens to boys than it does happen to boys.

929
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 4: You know. Tragically, it's a very American story.

930
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, I mean the.

931
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:37,359
Speaker 6: Vast majority of children who are invested do not kill

932
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 6: their parents, but about three hundred kids a year in

933
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,439
Speaker 6: this century kill their parents, you know, and even more

934
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 6: parents kill their children.

935
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:50,839
Speaker 3: And it's something we can't turn a blind eye top.

936
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 4: You know. Well, it's just it's just countless shattered lives,

937
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 4: you know, and how that life shatters. It could be homicide,

938
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 4: but it could also be suicide. It could be a

939
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 4: life of drug addiction, it could be a life of

940
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 4: being in battering relationships, It could be a life of

941
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 4: battering others because you're acting out from it. So the

942
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 4: way the lives get shattered very and of course I know,

943
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 4: you know, we've re experienced the fact that an abuse

944
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 4: that can actually it ends up in a homicide and

945
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 4: they've killed the perpetrator, you know, if they've killed their

946
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 4: views or whether it be a battered woman or a child,

947
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 4: they do. You know, the justice system is sometimes very

948
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:36,800
Speaker 4: unforgiving what in the mitigation of it. It's something that

949
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:39,919
Speaker 4: they've just sort of coming to terms what now, much

950
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 4: better than in the nineties. But you know, I think

951
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 4: it's a huge problem in the country, and so I

952
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 4: have experienced it with just an outpouring of people who

953
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 4: you know, it was one of the reasons I testified.

954
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,080
Speaker 4: One of the reasons was to just give voice what

955
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 4: happened to me because so many people were writing me

956
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 4: saying they were afraid to talk, right, you know, and

957
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 4: I knew they would be listening. You know. I kept

958
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 4: a letter from a sex abuse actually a great victim

959
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:14,800
Speaker 4: in my pocket while I testified the whole time, and

960
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 4: it just to give me strength. And there's such a

961
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 4: deep connection in the country with that community. But there's

962
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 4: still suffer right and there needs to be a continued

963
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 4: appreciation for what victims that go through. Yes, and better

964
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 4: better outreach to help them, right, because I really helped

965
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 4: them really, you know. I mean there's so much going

966
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 4: on in families that you're all the same where people

967
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 4: are not. You know, you have to help. When you

968
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 4: see something, you have to stop it early. Yeah, I

969
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 4: shouldn't end up like Eric and I without a.

970
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 6: Doubt, without a doubt. Well, listen, I am fully one

971
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 6: hundred supportive of you, and I'm waiting to hear what.

972
00:57:57,840 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 7: Happens with the fifty seconds remaining.

973
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 3: I want to thank you Lyle for doing this today.

974
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 3: You'll come back and do it again.

975
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 6: I would love to have to have you talk about

976
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 6: it as the caste progress is because I'm very interested

977
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 6: in looking forward to yours and your brother's freedom for

978
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 6: the first time really in.

979
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 3: Your whole life.

980
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 4: Thank you, Rosie.

981
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:22,000
Speaker 3: All right, you take care of yourself.

982
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 4: Okay, Okay, Well, thank you so much. I will talk

983
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 4: to you soon. Bye bye. Well.

984
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 1: I hope this helped reframe a series of events that

985
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: are in the cultural zeitgeist that need to be corrected,

986
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 1: re examined, fixed. I'm really interested in what you think.

987
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 1: Could you Please send a voice memo about this episode,

988
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: and maybe we'll do an entire episode with your thoughts

989
00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 1: and observations, and I will answer whatever questions you might

990
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 1: have about Lyle or his brother or the case. So

991
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 1: send him in if you're so moved, send in your

992
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: voice memos the addresses Onward Rosie at gmail dot com.

993
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 1: Next week, join me for the outrageously Funny the very

994
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 1: Tall Jewish hysterical comedian, actor, podcaster, and writer. My buddy

995
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:27,439
Speaker 1: and friend for many, many many years, Judy Gold