WEBVTT - Coming Clean 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:08.080 Hey there, folks, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ. 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:10.960 Robes sitting next to me here, and we're gonna start 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:12.559 with this. I got a bone to pick with you. 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:13.200 Great. 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:15.760 You do this all the time when we start. We 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:17.400 used to do this when we were hosting the show 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:20.880 on television together. TEJ, you start right, I give you 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:23.599 the opportunity. Hey, you can start. I let you do 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:25.119 it if you wanted to, and you said no, So 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:25.760 I'll take it. 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:28.160 I said, I know what I'm good at, and I 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:31.560 know what you're good at, and you were significantly better 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:32.320 than me at starting. 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:33.120 You know how to just. 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:35.120 Rev it up, all right, So I'm reving it up 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:37.560 by taking I have a beef to pick with you, okay. 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:40.239 I have a. 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:48.880 Really big problem with how sometimes you talk about your health, okay. 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:52.760 And what I say to that is, as we sit here, 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:57.080 you are, how far as a breast cancer survivor past 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:00.880 the date of when you were recommended by your doctor 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:04.920 to have blood work done? You came in hot, you said, 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:06.720 I'm better at starting. How's that starting? 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:07.360 Well? 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:09.000 I also said, you know how to rev it up 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:10.760 or stir it up, and you certainly are doing that. 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:13.800 So the last time I had blood work done was 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:17.600 August of twenty twenty two, and it's been weighing on 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.800 me because I know, up until that point I was 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:24.080 getting blood work every six months, as was recommended by 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:29.240 my oncologist. I got off to moxifen then after eight years, 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:31.520 and so that's the drug where I do have to 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:34.360 be monitored very carefully and closely. And so then I 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:37.560 just kind of took it upon myself to extend how 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:39.880 long I was going to go back for the next 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:41.440 blood work, and then all hell broke down. 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:43.240 You shaid, so good upon yourself. I have that right. 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:44.920 I made that choice. I made a choice. 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:47.760 Okay, So August twenty twenty two. The next one you 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:48.680 should have had would. 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:50.440 Have been when February twenty twenty two. 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:52.440 And you didn't have it. I was twenty three, right. 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:55.160 Sorry, sorry, Yes, February twenty twenty three. We were going 0:01:55.240 --> 0:02:00.240 through our hell, and yes, it was the last thing 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:00.720 on my mind. 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:03.920 So your doctor, upon hearing that you have gone a 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:07.200 year and a half past getting blood work done as 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:09.840 a breast cancer survivor of ten years now, which is 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:11.720 I know what, you get a little farther past the date, 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:14.120 and I think they say it's not as often that 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:14.320 they are. 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:17.760 Statistically speaking, it's less likely to come back metastatic. 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:19.720 Yes, okay, what would your doctor say too. 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:22.520 That she would tell me to make an appointment for 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:23.240 my blood work? 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:25.079 How soon? 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:28.119 Probably should call when I'm done with this podcast? 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:30.400 Okay? So why is it as we sit here still 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:32.400 you have a grin on your face And that's okay. 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:35.040 I'm not saying you're taking this lightly, but I'm saying, 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:40.639 why still won't you or haven't you done it? And 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:43.399 you say you'll do it right after the podcast, I'm 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:46.840 guessing you won't. But tell me why you're putting it. 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:51.760 Off, because I think anyone who has survived this knows 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:54.040 that when you go in for the blood work, it's 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:57.680 very emotional because you're literally getting they're looking for tumor markers, 0:02:57.760 --> 0:02:59.920 is what they're looking for. So if the cancer were 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.000 to come back in the places you don't want it to, 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:07.320 with breast cancer, bones, liver, lung's brain, you would think 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:09.280 that you'd get a blood test that would show a 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:13.919 tumor marker, which means that you would be facing then 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:18.800 a terminal yet treatable, but ultimately a terminal cancer. And 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:21.639 so I think the fear of that you get into 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.680 this mindset I don't want to know. I'd rather not know. 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:27.760 It's not going to make a difference anyway. You start 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.120 to get in that headspace and maybe it's an excuse 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.079 just not to have to go to the doctor again, 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.120 or go back to the NYU Cancer Center again, or 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:37.840 just to avoid something that's uncomfortable and scary. 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:40.920 You're saying, you're saying you as a general thing, like 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:43.960 the general population. I'm saying you are you telling me 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.120 because I'm telling it from me. Okay, we were talking 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:48.000 about this early and I was surprised to hear this. 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:51.520 If you go back in that the blood work you 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:55.440 get and if you get a bad result, then that 0:03:55.600 --> 0:04:01.000 is essentially you being told this is a terminal now 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:03.360 illness you're dealing with. Is that correct? 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:04.160 Yes? 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:06.120 I mean if I had tumor markers that showed that 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:09.320 it had spread, yes, that my cancer had become what 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:12.600 we call metastatic stage four. Yes, But I do know 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:14.800 that there are amazing treatments out there now. They can 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:16.680 extend your life, they can make your life, you know, 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:19.080 a lot better than they could have even five years 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:20.040 ago or ten years ago. 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:21.440 So there's a lot of. 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.640 Promise, but yes, it would ultimately be right now, it 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:26.200 would be considered terminal. 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.240 See, I don't know how to get my I've covered 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:33.119 obviously covered breast cancer. I've known people with breast cancer. 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:35.600 I'm now in love with somebody who has as a 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:42.120 breast cancer survivor. But it always bothered me and it 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:45.599 scares me. Right, And you and I have talked about this, 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:48.680 and that we have gone through a past almost a 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:50.599 decade together in a lot of ways, and been through 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:54.479 a lot as friends. You've seen a lot of hell 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.200 and help save my life in a lot of ways, 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:00.200 I would argue, and all we went through together to 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.599 this point. And I have to pause sometimes and catch 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:06.360 myself when we're having the conversation because you do talk 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:08.120 about it in the way you talk about it, and 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.719 all I'm hearing is that this woman I've gone through 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:15.520 all this with isn't doing all she can to make 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:17.640 sure we have as much time together as we can. 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:18.840 Does that make sense? 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:19.200 Yes? 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:23.240 Okay? And that this is your body, this is your struggle, 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:25.560 this is your what you went through. But for some 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:28.600 reason I feel bad, or I feel selfish, or I 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:31.839 feel wrong for having that thought about our relationship. 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:35.839 Well, I think it's very sweet, and I'm sorry to 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:40.040 because it is true. I think my mom would feel 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:41.440 the same way, my dad would feel the same way 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:44.479 everything you're saying. And so I know, I know they do. Yeah, yeah, 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:46.920 and I know, and I appreciate that. I know that 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:50.280 means that you truly love and care for me, and 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.320 I understand where that's coming from. And so yes, it's 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.599 actually I think selfish of me to not go get 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:58.680 the test, but it just I don't know. 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:04.640 That's what I was getting at. There, all are produces 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:06.920 are in here. They were all in it right, tears 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:09.440 in their eyes, and now they're like, come on. 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:11.680 Do you know what's interesting is I preach this or 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:13.760 I have preached this to so many women who this 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.640 is what I'm saying right now is the same mentality 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:20.200 a lot of women have about not getting mammograms because 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:22.279 they don't want to know. They don't want to find 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:24.159 the mask. They don't want to know if they have 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:27.440 cancer because that's scary and that means it's going to be. 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:29.360 Difficult. 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:32.640 And so that you know, ignorance is bliss mentality, as 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:35.960 stupid as that is and as illogical as that is 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.600 somehow becomes this human trait that I'm now experiencing because 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:41.919 I've put it off. I've and once you keep putting 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:44.000 it off, you're like, Oh, this feels so good to 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:46.240 not have to make a phone call. This feels so 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:47.719 good to not have to do good a blood test. 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:50.880 I feel normal. I feel like I never had cancer. 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:52.640 And that's what I want to feel. And so then 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:55.159 somehow I want to wish it into existence. But it's 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:56.279 illogical and dumb. 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:59.159 Okay, doctor Coleman, I just want you to react to 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:02.160 what you just heard the back and forth. We're going 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:06.040 to officially do the right introduction to doctor Elizabeth Cohen 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:08.480 and on cologist who's in the room with us here now, 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:14.480 But give us what do you think about that dynamic 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.800 and that back and forth and what the concern for 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:21.040 a loved one me sitting in this seat with the 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:23.760 loved one who has gone through what she's gone through. 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:27.600 Just I would like to hear what you think of 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:29.640 what you just heard of us from us. 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:32.760 Well, I have an emotional response, and then I also 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:37.240 have an academic doctory response. Emotionally, I just want to 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.280 give you both a big hug. There is so much 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:46.120 love there. There's so much connection, and there's just so 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:49.880 much deep passion for each other that you both feel. 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:55.280 And this is just incredibly, incredibly hard stuff. So I 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:57.559 would first just want to give you both a hug 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:00.560 and a ton of grace, because clearly you'll nowavigate it 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:02.400 with a lot of love and a lot of grace. 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:08.200 From an academic, purely intellectual doctor voice standpoint, tumor markers 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:11.560 are complicated, and you may be getting them for a 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:16.560 very specific reason for yourself. It's not historically something that 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:20.040 we do for all women who are survivors of breast cancer. 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.960 They can sometimes be misleading, They can cause a lot 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:26.000 of anxiety. It doesn't always mean if you have elevated 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:29.240 tumor markers that it's necessarily cancer. Lots of things, other 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:33.960 things can elevate them. So they are very wrought with 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:37.520 a lot of anxiety when women go, depending on the 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:42.360 context for those tests. But I also think it's really 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:45.560 understandable people have a lot of trauma from our healthcare system. 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:48.720 Women in particular. The idea of going even having to 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:51.000 show up at a place where you were treated for cancer, 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:54.360 even if it is for some form of monitoring, can 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:58.640 be really terrifying. And sometimes you know, if this is 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:00.840 something that your doctorate suggest did, maybe you make a 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:01.760 pack to go together. 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.040 Yeah, it's funny just you even saying about going back 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:10.240 into the place where you were diagnosed. It's crazy the 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:14.000 PTSD you have from walking and thinking you were perfectly 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:17.120 healthy to realizing that you actually weren't, to think I 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:18.920 could go in again and this could happen again, and 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:21.439 it prevents you from doing things maybe that you should 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:25.400 because you're so traumatized by that moment when it happened, 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:28.800 when you thought it was impossible. What do you say 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:31.720 to doctor Elizabeth Coleman, by. 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:35.080 The way, maybe we should introduce her. 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:39.319 I mean, she is one of the leading breast oncologists 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.400 here with memorial Sloan Kettering MSK like the gold standard 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:49.000 of treating people who are battling breast cancer and just 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:53.720 has been an unbelievable voice and an advocate for breast 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:56.880 cancer patients. And I love your your advocacy for breast 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.960 cancer research. I know that your passion is my passion, 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:04.200 and we met. I believe it'd BCRF Breast Cancer Research Foundation, 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:06.559 but also have ties to five hundred and forty as well. 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:09.600 Where these are organizations that one of them is to 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:12.920 helping women get through tough times emotionally and physically, but 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.480 the other is to prevent or to stop this from 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.680 killing women. So I know you've done so much work 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:21.440 looking for that blood test that actually would let a 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:23.800 woman know at an early stage that she had breast 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:27.640 cancer instead of a mammogram. So you are an amazing 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:30.959 physician that you've saved countless lives. But now you've written 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:34.760 a book which goes beyond breast cancer, goes beyond cancer, 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:37.560 and it talks about women's health altogether, and it's all 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:40.880 in her head. We've all heard that, right, And this 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:44.080 is something to me that spoke to I think any 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.439 woman who's ever gone into a doctor's office or had 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.920 an issue and second guest herself. There's a reason why 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:54.000 we doubt our bodies, in doubt what we're feeling and 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:57.440 think maybe it's nothing, or maybe it's just anxiety, or 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:01.120 maybe I am emotion and that's what it is. 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:02.199 Hysterical. 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:06.040 Right. That's so tell me about why you're a woman, 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:10.520 you're a physician, Why would you write a book like this? 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:13.960 Well, a lot of it came from, as you said, 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:16.880 I've spent my whole career taking care of women, countless women, 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:20.040 thousands of women, And the book is not about cancer, 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:22.200 but really what it is like to be a woman 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:26.040 seeking medical care throughout history. The book is broken down 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.839 by organ system the same way that specialties and are 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:36.200 created today cardiology, gastroentrology, neurology, and mirrors the fragmentation of 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:38.600 the body as we learn about it in medical school, 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:41.400 and walks through history with each of those organ systems. 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:45.200 But I wrote the book really having been inspired and 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:49.199 at times heartbroken and other times enraged and horrified by 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:52.040 the stories that patients were telling me when I met them, 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:54.960 not about their cancers per se, in some instances dismissed 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:57.360 for having alan been being told or you're too young 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:00.240 to have cancer, but in all other aspects of their 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:04.960 medical care, feeling invalidated or shamed or apologizing for their 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:08.360 normal bodily functions. And as I became a mother myself 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:10.520 and a daughter and caring for women in my family, 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:14.720 I just felt this overwhelming need to work to try 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:16.760 to change that narrative and be part of a mission 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:19.880 to improve the health care for women which goes far 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:22.559 beyond cancer, but in every aspect of our bodies. 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.480 You said, change narrative. It seems on a wider scale, 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:29.560 when we talk about women's health, it's uh, breast cancer 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.320 and abortion rights, right, and that's the end of the 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:36.319 On a larger scale, we know there's more, but why 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.520 are we not talking about more when it comes to 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:39.920 when's he. 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.400 It's a great question because I think that's exactly part 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:45.000 of the problem. When I was in medical school, I thought, 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:49.560 you know, women's health was gynecology. And as I've had 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.400 this much longer career taking care of women, the reality 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:54.440 is we are not small men from head to toe. 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:57.240 The way we present with diseases is entire It can 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:01.079 be entirely different. There are female specific and female predominant diseases, 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:04.320 but yet our healthcare system and the public we've largely 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:06.120 been reduced to, as you said, our breast and our 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:09.080 reproductive function. And that's a real problem. I mean, we 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.400 don't recognize as a whole as a society that, for example, 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:15.320 eighty percent of autoimmune diseases are in women. Much of 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:16.960 those we don't even have the right names for. We 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:18.960 don't even know how to have the right blood tests, 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:21.560 or that Alzheimer's disease is two times more likely in 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:24.440 women than men, and women are often the ones who 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.120 are the caregivers of our society, So who's caring for 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:30.440 those women? Or that heart disease is the number one 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:33.720 killer of women, And yet we are often taught that 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:36.960 the way women present with symptoms is atypical as compared 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:39.600 to a man, that we're greater than fifty percent of 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:42.800 the population, We're not atypical. So all these ways that 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:46.960 we have myself included thought that women's house with this 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:49.720 was this very reductionist view of what our bodies are, 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:51.880 and I want that to change. It has to change. 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:53.880 Oh, I mean, I think this is so relatable to 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.440 any woman who's gone in with with some issue and 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:01.040 are so afraid they're not going to be believed even. 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:01.760 To start off with. 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:05.720 Have you ever experienced that bias you as a woman, 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:07.960 you as a patient. Have you ever felt like you 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:09.760 weren't believed or you were dismissed. 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:14.920 Absolutely, it's almost embarrassing to say, and I didn't want 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.040 to include it in the book, But when I told 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:19.200 my editor what had happened to me at the end 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:21.800 of writing the book, right before I wrote the conclusion, 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:23.320 she was like, well, how can you not share this? 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.320 And I said, well, here, I am advocating for women's health. 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.360 I have all these resources in the world, and look 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:31.800 what happened to me. If I couldn't do it. How 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:33.360 can the average woman do it? Or how can the 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:36.600 woman with no resources do it? I had had at 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:38.400 the conclusion of writing this book, I had a very 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:42.560 small back surgery, and about six weeks later, I developed 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:45.280 a horrible headache that was worse when I was sitting 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:47.720 up but somewhat relieved when I was lying down, but 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:52.400 literally I could not raise my head a millimeter. And 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:55.800 I had said to a friend, I think that I'm 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:59.000 leaking spinal fluid from where I had my other surgery, 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.440 and that can happen beca because your spinal fluid is 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.960 encased in almost like a cellophane membrane, and that connects 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:06.960 to the fluid that's in your brain as well. So 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:09.400 if that leaks from the back of your spine, you 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:11.880 have less fluid around your brain, and it can feel 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:14.440 like your brain's being sucked down your spinal cord, literally 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:16.800 in a vacuum. It's something that women who have had 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:20.720 an epidural might experience after childbirth. It's called the spinal headache, 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:23.200 and so immediately I thought I knew what I had, 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:27.800 but very long story short, I had several other people 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:31.680 tell me that it was not that, and instead of 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:34.560 advocating for myself and believing, well, I know what's wrong 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.680 with me, I spent days and days and days not 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:40.320 getting the care that I need, not being heard, and 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.840 ultimately being admitted to the hospital with swelling around my brain. 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.000 What I mean, did they do any testing or you 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:48.600 just said it and they said, now I don't need 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:49.720 to check for that or what. 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:50.680 Well. 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:54.360 I was so embarrassed that my idea seemed so crazy, 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:56.320 which is what I was initially told. There's no way 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.040 that could happen. You're crazy. It's just like a compressor 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:01.840 nerve or you just have a head. So in that 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:05.840 process I didn't even express a part to my friend 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:08.280 what I thought was going on. So the last time 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.480 the diagnosis was uttered was when I said to my friend, 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:13.600 who's not a doctor, who's like, I don't know who 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:13.760 do you? 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:16.040 You were asking someone who isn't a doctor, and you're 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:20.920 a doctor. That's so fascinating, Yeah, yes, yes, and so 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:23.000 relatable by the way, so relatable, and then I had 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.280 several doctors also tell me that I was crazy and 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:27.840 that's no way it could be that, but it was, 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:28.440 but it was. 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:33.000 Are women doctors more prone to listen to women or no? 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:38.000 So when you look at the data per se, women 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:43.960 in general listen longer to patients. Women who are operated 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:48.960 on by women do better. Overall, if a man is 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:52.080 operated by a woman or by a man, their outcomes 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:56.800 are the same. Now wow yeah, oh wow, So that's 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:00.800 the data. That's not to say uniform. That's the case. 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:03.520 There are amazing male physicians to do a beautiful job 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:05.879 of listening and are empathic, and then there are female 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:09.080 physicians that are not. Right. We can't just split this 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:10.760 along gendered in sex. 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.240 Lineskay, But generally if you're a woman, you're in better 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:15.520 hands with a woman doctor if. 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:19.080 You will agitated. But I would like to say is 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:21.760 that that doesn't have to be that way. We can 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:25.520 value nurturing, we can value listening, we can value empathy 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:28.560 from any doctor that shows up. And I think we 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:30.719 have to bake that back into our system. That's kind 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:34.280 of sidelined some of those qualities that are really essential 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:37.160 to being a good doctor and have pressured our system. 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:39.680 Dramatically, doctor Clem, and I asked, if you had ever 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:43.440 not been believed, have you ever dismissed a female patient, 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:47.840 And come to realize, oh wow, she was actually saying 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:48.920 something that I didn't hear. 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:53.000 You know, one of the stories in the book, if 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:55.320 I can be somewhat provocative. 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:56.879 Was you can go as a safe space. 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.440 Okay, so we're just going to go there. You can 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.680 start giving me hand signals if if it's a bit much. 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:05.560 Nothings as off limits, okay. 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.639 So I had a woman who isn't She must have 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:14.600 been in her late seventies, and this amazing photographer and 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:18.400 artist and just sort of fabulous with big glasses, and 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.639 I love taking care of her. And she had been 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.320 put on in aromatase inhibitor, which, as you know, depletes 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:26.159 the amount of estrogen. Can cause joint aches, it can 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:28.879 cause decrease libido, it can cause vaginal dryness, it can 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:30.679 cause decreased bone density. It can have a lot of 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:34.679 different side effects. And when I spoke with her, I 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:39.880 neglected to talk about her sexual health. And one day 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:41.680 she came in and she said, you know, I'm really 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:44.639 having some problems with my special friend, and I thought, well, 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:48.199 this lady lives alone. What is she talking about? And 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:50.240 I got all excited that I that there was some 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:53.880 new person, her new special friend. And I said, well, 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:57.200 you know who's your special friend? And she said, it's 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:02.000 my vibrator. And you you never talk to me about 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.760 what the hell would happen to me on this aromatase inhibitor. 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:09.120 And I'm miserable. And so I had dismissed that an 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:13.680 older woman would want to be sexually vibrant and thriving. 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:16.240 And she said, that's a real problem. You got to 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:18.560 think about why you didn't talk to me about that. 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:21.080 You talked to you about about other women. Why did 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:23.399 you neglect to think about that with me? My special 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:27.119 friend is very important to me. And so there have 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:29.439 been many patients along the way. I am human and 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:32.119 I have drank the kool aid as well about a 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:34.160 lot of the legacy that we inherit when we show 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:36.200 up at the doctor's office, a lot of the bias 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:38.760 whether we're doctor or as patient. So as much of 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.199 writing this book was not only to help patients, but 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:42.680 it's the kind of book I wish I had read 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:47.119 in medical school. And I perfectly not perfectly, but I 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:51.120 have to humbly own what has happened to me along 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:52.080