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Speaker 1: Hey there, folks, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ.

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Speaker 1: Robes sitting next to me here, and we're gonna start

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Speaker 1: with this. I got a bone to pick with you.

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Speaker 2: Great.

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Speaker 1: You do this all the time when we start. We

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Speaker 1: used to do this when we were hosting the show

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Speaker 1: on television together. TEJ, you start right, I give you

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Speaker 1: the opportunity. Hey, you can start. I let you do

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Speaker 1: it if you wanted to, and you said no, So

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Speaker 1: I'll take it.

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Speaker 3: I said, I know what I'm good at, and I

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Speaker 3: know what you're good at, and you were significantly better

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Speaker 3: than me at starting.

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Speaker 2: You know how to just.

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Speaker 1: Rev it up, all right, So I'm reving it up

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Speaker 1: by taking I have a beef to pick with you, okay.

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Speaker 2: I have a.

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Speaker 1: Really big problem with how sometimes you talk about your health, okay.

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Speaker 1: And what I say to that is, as we sit here,

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Speaker 1: you are, how far as a breast cancer survivor past

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Speaker 1: the date of when you were recommended by your doctor

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Speaker 1: to have blood work done? You came in hot, you said,

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Speaker 1: I'm better at starting. How's that starting?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 3: I also said, you know how to rev it up

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Speaker 3: or stir it up, and you certainly are doing that.

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Speaker 3: So the last time I had blood work done was

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Speaker 3: August of twenty twenty two, and it's been weighing on

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Speaker 3: me because I know, up until that point I was

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Speaker 3: getting blood work every six months, as was recommended by

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Speaker 3: my oncologist. I got off to moxifen then after eight years,

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Speaker 3: and so that's the drug where I do have to

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Speaker 3: be monitored very carefully and closely. And so then I

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Speaker 3: just kind of took it upon myself to extend how

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Speaker 3: long I was going to go back for the next

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Speaker 3: blood work, and then all hell broke down.

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Speaker 1: You shaid, so good upon yourself. I have that right.

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Speaker 2: I made that choice. I made a choice.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So August twenty twenty two. The next one you

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Speaker 1: should have had would.

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Speaker 3: Have been when February twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 1: And you didn't have it. I was twenty three, right.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, sorry, Yes, February twenty twenty three. We were going

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Speaker 3: through our hell, and yes, it was the last thing

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Speaker 3: on my mind.

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Speaker 1: So your doctor, upon hearing that you have gone a

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Speaker 1: year and a half past getting blood work done as

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Speaker 1: a breast cancer survivor of ten years now, which is

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Speaker 1: I know what, you get a little farther past the date,

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Speaker 1: and I think they say it's not as often that

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Speaker 1: they are.

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Speaker 3: Statistically speaking, it's less likely to come back metastatic.

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Speaker 1: Yes, okay, what would your doctor say too.

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Speaker 3: That she would tell me to make an appointment for

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Speaker 3: my blood work?

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Speaker 1: How soon?

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Speaker 2: Probably should call when I'm done with this podcast?

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Speaker 1: Okay? So why is it as we sit here still

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Speaker 1: you have a grin on your face And that's okay.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying you're taking this lightly, but I'm saying,

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Speaker 1: why still won't you or haven't you done it? And

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Speaker 1: you say you'll do it right after the podcast, I'm

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Speaker 1: guessing you won't. But tell me why you're putting it.

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Speaker 3: Off, because I think anyone who has survived this knows

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Speaker 3: that when you go in for the blood work, it's

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Speaker 3: very emotional because you're literally getting they're looking for tumor markers,

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Speaker 3: is what they're looking for. So if the cancer were

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Speaker 3: to come back in the places you don't want it to,

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Speaker 3: with breast cancer, bones, liver, lung's brain, you would think

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Speaker 3: that you'd get a blood test that would show a

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Speaker 3: tumor marker, which means that you would be facing then

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Speaker 3: a terminal yet treatable, but ultimately a terminal cancer. And

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Speaker 3: so I think the fear of that you get into

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Speaker 3: this mindset I don't want to know. I'd rather not know.

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Speaker 3: It's not going to make a difference anyway. You start

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Speaker 3: to get in that headspace and maybe it's an excuse

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Speaker 3: just not to have to go to the doctor again,

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Speaker 3: or go back to the NYU Cancer Center again, or

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Speaker 3: just to avoid something that's uncomfortable and scary.

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Speaker 1: You're saying, you're saying you as a general thing, like

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Speaker 1: the general population. I'm saying you are you telling me

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Speaker 1: because I'm telling it from me. Okay, we were talking

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Speaker 1: about this early and I was surprised to hear this.

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Speaker 1: If you go back in that the blood work you

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Speaker 1: get and if you get a bad result, then that

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Speaker 1: is essentially you being told this is a terminal now

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Speaker 1: illness you're dealing with. Is that correct?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 3: I mean if I had tumor markers that showed that

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Speaker 3: it had spread, yes, that my cancer had become what

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Speaker 3: we call metastatic stage four. Yes, But I do know

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Speaker 3: that there are amazing treatments out there now. They can

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Speaker 3: extend your life, they can make your life, you know,

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Speaker 3: a lot better than they could have even five years

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Speaker 3: ago or ten years ago.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot of.

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Speaker 3: Promise, but yes, it would ultimately be right now, it

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Speaker 3: would be considered terminal.

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Speaker 1: See, I don't know how to get my I've covered

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Speaker 1: obviously covered breast cancer. I've known people with breast cancer.

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Speaker 1: I'm now in love with somebody who has as a

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Speaker 1: breast cancer survivor. But it always bothered me and it

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Speaker 1: scares me. Right, And you and I have talked about this,

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Speaker 1: and that we have gone through a past almost a

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Speaker 1: decade together in a lot of ways, and been through

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Speaker 1: a lot as friends. You've seen a lot of hell

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Speaker 1: and help save my life in a lot of ways,

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Speaker 1: I would argue, and all we went through together to

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Speaker 1: this point. And I have to pause sometimes and catch

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Speaker 1: myself when we're having the conversation because you do talk

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Speaker 1: about it in the way you talk about it, and

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Speaker 1: all I'm hearing is that this woman I've gone through

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Speaker 1: all this with isn't doing all she can to make

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Speaker 1: sure we have as much time together as we can.

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Speaker 1: Does that make sense?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Okay? And that this is your body, this is your struggle,

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Speaker 1: this is your what you went through. But for some

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Speaker 1: reason I feel bad, or I feel selfish, or I

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Speaker 1: feel wrong for having that thought about our relationship.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it's very sweet, and I'm sorry to

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Speaker 3: because it is true. I think my mom would feel

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Speaker 3: the same way, my dad would feel the same way

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Speaker 3: everything you're saying. And so I know, I know they do. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: and I know, and I appreciate that. I know that

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Speaker 3: means that you truly love and care for me, and

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Speaker 3: I understand where that's coming from. And so yes, it's

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Speaker 3: actually I think selfish of me to not go get

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Speaker 3: the test, but it just I don't know.

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Speaker 1: That's what I was getting at. There, all are produces

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Speaker 1: are in here. They were all in it right, tears

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Speaker 1: in their eyes, and now they're like, come on.

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Speaker 3: Do you know what's interesting is I preach this or

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Speaker 3: I have preached this to so many women who this

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Speaker 3: is what I'm saying right now is the same mentality

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Speaker 3: a lot of women have about not getting mammograms because

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Speaker 3: they don't want to know. They don't want to find

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Speaker 3: the mask. They don't want to know if they have

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Speaker 3: cancer because that's scary and that means it's going to be.

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Speaker 2: Difficult.

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Speaker 3: And so that you know, ignorance is bliss mentality, as

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Speaker 3: stupid as that is and as illogical as that is

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Speaker 3: somehow becomes this human trait that I'm now experiencing because

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Speaker 3: I've put it off. I've and once you keep putting

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Speaker 3: it off, you're like, Oh, this feels so good to

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Speaker 3: not have to make a phone call. This feels so

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Speaker 3: good to not have to do good a blood test.

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Speaker 3: I feel normal. I feel like I never had cancer.

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Speaker 3: And that's what I want to feel. And so then

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Speaker 3: somehow I want to wish it into existence. But it's

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Speaker 3: illogical and dumb.

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Speaker 1: Okay, doctor Coleman, I just want you to react to

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Speaker 1: what you just heard the back and forth. We're going

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Speaker 1: to officially do the right introduction to doctor Elizabeth Cohen

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Speaker 1: and on cologist who's in the room with us here now,

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Speaker 1: But give us what do you think about that dynamic

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Speaker 1: and that back and forth and what the concern for

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Speaker 1: a loved one me sitting in this seat with the

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Speaker 1: loved one who has gone through what she's gone through.

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Speaker 1: Just I would like to hear what you think of

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Speaker 1: what you just heard of us from us.

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Speaker 5: Well, I have an emotional response, and then I also

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Speaker 5: have an academic doctory response. Emotionally, I just want to

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Speaker 5: give you both a big hug. There is so much

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Speaker 5: love there. There's so much connection, and there's just so

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Speaker 5: much deep passion for each other that you both feel.

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Speaker 5: And this is just incredibly, incredibly hard stuff. So I

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Speaker 5: would first just want to give you both a hug

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Speaker 5: and a ton of grace, because clearly you'll nowavigate it

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Speaker 5: with a lot of love and a lot of grace.

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Speaker 5: From an academic, purely intellectual doctor voice standpoint, tumor markers

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Speaker 5: are complicated, and you may be getting them for a

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Speaker 5: very specific reason for yourself. It's not historically something that

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Speaker 5: we do for all women who are survivors of breast cancer.

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Speaker 5: They can sometimes be misleading, They can cause a lot

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Speaker 5: of anxiety. It doesn't always mean if you have elevated

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Speaker 5: tumor markers that it's necessarily cancer. Lots of things, other

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Speaker 5: things can elevate them. So they are very wrought with

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Speaker 5: a lot of anxiety when women go, depending on the

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Speaker 5: context for those tests. But I also think it's really

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Speaker 5: understandable people have a lot of trauma from our healthcare system.

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Speaker 5: Women in particular. The idea of going even having to

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Speaker 5: show up at a place where you were treated for cancer,

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Speaker 5: even if it is for some form of monitoring, can

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Speaker 5: be really terrifying. And sometimes you know, if this is

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Speaker 5: something that your doctorate suggest did, maybe you make a

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Speaker 5: pack to go together.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny just you even saying about going back

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Speaker 3: into the place where you were diagnosed. It's crazy the

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Speaker 3: PTSD you have from walking and thinking you were perfectly

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Speaker 3: healthy to realizing that you actually weren't, to think I

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Speaker 3: could go in again and this could happen again, and

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Speaker 3: it prevents you from doing things maybe that you should

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Speaker 3: because you're so traumatized by that moment when it happened,

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Speaker 3: when you thought it was impossible. What do you say

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Speaker 3: to doctor Elizabeth Coleman, by.

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Speaker 4: The way, maybe we should introduce her.

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Speaker 3: I mean, she is one of the leading breast oncologists

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Speaker 3: here with memorial Sloan Kettering MSK like the gold standard

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Speaker 3: of treating people who are battling breast cancer and just

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Speaker 3: has been an unbelievable voice and an advocate for breast

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Speaker 3: cancer patients. And I love your your advocacy for breast

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Speaker 3: cancer research. I know that your passion is my passion,

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Speaker 3: and we met. I believe it'd BCRF Breast Cancer Research Foundation,

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Speaker 3: but also have ties to five hundred and forty as well.

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Speaker 3: Where these are organizations that one of them is to

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Speaker 3: helping women get through tough times emotionally and physically, but

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Speaker 3: the other is to prevent or to stop this from

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Speaker 3: killing women. So I know you've done so much work

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Speaker 3: looking for that blood test that actually would let a

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Speaker 3: woman know at an early stage that she had breast

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Speaker 3: cancer instead of a mammogram. So you are an amazing

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Speaker 3: physician that you've saved countless lives. But now you've written

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Speaker 3: a book which goes beyond breast cancer, goes beyond cancer,

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Speaker 3: and it talks about women's health altogether, and it's all

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Speaker 3: in her head. We've all heard that, right, And this

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Speaker 3: is something to me that spoke to I think any

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Speaker 3: woman who's ever gone into a doctor's office or had

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Speaker 3: an issue and second guest herself. There's a reason why

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Speaker 3: we doubt our bodies, in doubt what we're feeling and

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Speaker 3: think maybe it's nothing, or maybe it's just anxiety, or

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Speaker 3: maybe I am emotion and that's what it is.

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Speaker 2: Hysterical.

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Speaker 3: Right. That's so tell me about why you're a woman,

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Speaker 3: you're a physician, Why would you write a book like this?

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Speaker 5: Well, a lot of it came from, as you said,

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Speaker 5: I've spent my whole career taking care of women, countless women,

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Speaker 5: thousands of women, And the book is not about cancer,

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Speaker 5: but really what it is like to be a woman

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Speaker 5: seeking medical care throughout history. The book is broken down

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Speaker 5: by organ system the same way that specialties and are

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Speaker 5: created today cardiology, gastroentrology, neurology, and mirrors the fragmentation of

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Speaker 5: the body as we learn about it in medical school,

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Speaker 5: and walks through history with each of those organ systems.

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Speaker 5: But I wrote the book really having been inspired and

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Speaker 5: at times heartbroken and other times enraged and horrified by

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Speaker 5: the stories that patients were telling me when I met them,

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Speaker 5: not about their cancers per se, in some instances dismissed

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Speaker 5: for having alan been being told or you're too young

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Speaker 5: to have cancer, but in all other aspects of their

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Speaker 5: medical care, feeling invalidated or shamed or apologizing for their

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Speaker 5: normal bodily functions. And as I became a mother myself

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Speaker 5: and a daughter and caring for women in my family,

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Speaker 5: I just felt this overwhelming need to work to try

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Speaker 5: to change that narrative and be part of a mission

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Speaker 5: to improve the health care for women which goes far

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Speaker 5: beyond cancer, but in every aspect of our bodies.

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Speaker 1: You said, change narrative. It seems on a wider scale,

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Speaker 1: when we talk about women's health, it's uh, breast cancer

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Speaker 1: and abortion rights, right, and that's the end of the

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Speaker 1: On a larger scale, we know there's more, but why

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Speaker 1: are we not talking about more when it comes to

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Speaker 1: when's he.

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Speaker 5: It's a great question because I think that's exactly part

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Speaker 5: of the problem. When I was in medical school, I thought,

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Speaker 5: you know, women's health was gynecology. And as I've had

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Speaker 5: this much longer career taking care of women, the reality

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Speaker 5: is we are not small men from head to toe.

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Speaker 5: The way we present with diseases is entire It can

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Speaker 5: be entirely different. There are female specific and female predominant diseases,

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Speaker 5: but yet our healthcare system and the public we've largely

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Speaker 5: been reduced to, as you said, our breast and our

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Speaker 5: reproductive function. And that's a real problem. I mean, we

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Speaker 5: don't recognize as a whole as a society that, for example,

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Speaker 5: eighty percent of autoimmune diseases are in women. Much of

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Speaker 5: those we don't even have the right names for. We

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Speaker 5: don't even know how to have the right blood tests,

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Speaker 5: or that Alzheimer's disease is two times more likely in

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Speaker 5: women than men, and women are often the ones who

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Speaker 5: are the caregivers of our society, So who's caring for

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Speaker 5: those women? Or that heart disease is the number one

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Speaker 5: killer of women, And yet we are often taught that

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Speaker 5: the way women present with symptoms is atypical as compared

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Speaker 5: to a man, that we're greater than fifty percent of

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Speaker 5: the population, We're not atypical. So all these ways that

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Speaker 5: we have myself included thought that women's house with this

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Speaker 5: was this very reductionist view of what our bodies are,

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Speaker 5: and I want that to change. It has to change.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I mean, I think this is so relatable to

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Speaker 3: any woman who's gone in with with some issue and

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Speaker 3: are so afraid they're not going to be believed even.

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Speaker 2: To start off with.

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Speaker 3: Have you ever experienced that bias you as a woman,

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Speaker 3: you as a patient. Have you ever felt like you

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Speaker 3: weren't believed or you were dismissed.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, it's almost embarrassing to say, and I didn't want

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Speaker 5: to include it in the book, But when I told

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Speaker 5: my editor what had happened to me at the end

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Speaker 5: of writing the book, right before I wrote the conclusion,

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Speaker 5: she was like, well, how can you not share this?

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Speaker 5: And I said, well, here, I am advocating for women's health.

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Speaker 5: I have all these resources in the world, and look

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Speaker 5: what happened to me. If I couldn't do it. How

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Speaker 5: can the average woman do it? Or how can the

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Speaker 5: woman with no resources do it? I had had at

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Speaker 5: the conclusion of writing this book, I had a very

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Speaker 5: small back surgery, and about six weeks later, I developed

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Speaker 5: a horrible headache that was worse when I was sitting

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Speaker 5: up but somewhat relieved when I was lying down, but

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Speaker 5: literally I could not raise my head a millimeter. And

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Speaker 5: I had said to a friend, I think that I'm

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Speaker 5: leaking spinal fluid from where I had my other surgery,

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Speaker 5: and that can happen beca because your spinal fluid is

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Speaker 5: encased in almost like a cellophane membrane, and that connects

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Speaker 5: to the fluid that's in your brain as well. So

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Speaker 5: if that leaks from the back of your spine, you

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Speaker 5: have less fluid around your brain, and it can feel

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Speaker 5: like your brain's being sucked down your spinal cord, literally

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Speaker 5: in a vacuum. It's something that women who have had

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Speaker 5: an epidural might experience after childbirth. It's called the spinal headache,

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Speaker 5: and so immediately I thought I knew what I had,

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Speaker 5: but very long story short, I had several other people

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Speaker 5: tell me that it was not that, and instead of

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Speaker 5: advocating for myself and believing, well, I know what's wrong

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Speaker 5: with me, I spent days and days and days not

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Speaker 5: getting the care that I need, not being heard, and

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Speaker 5: ultimately being admitted to the hospital with swelling around my brain.

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Speaker 1: What I mean, did they do any testing or you

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Speaker 1: just said it and they said, now I don't need

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Speaker 1: to check for that or what.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 5: I was so embarrassed that my idea seemed so crazy,

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Speaker 5: which is what I was initially told. There's no way

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Speaker 5: that could happen. You're crazy. It's just like a compressor

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Speaker 5: nerve or you just have a head. So in that

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Speaker 5: process I didn't even express a part to my friend

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Speaker 5: what I thought was going on. So the last time

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Speaker 5: the diagnosis was uttered was when I said to my friend,

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Speaker 5: who's not a doctor, who's like, I don't know who

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Speaker 5: do you?

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Speaker 3: You were asking someone who isn't a doctor, and you're

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Speaker 3: a doctor. That's so fascinating, Yeah, yes, yes, and so

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Speaker 3: relatable by the way, so relatable, and then I had

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Speaker 3: several doctors also tell me that I was crazy and

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Speaker 3: that's no way it could be that, but it was,

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Speaker 3: but it was.

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Speaker 1: Are women doctors more prone to listen to women or no?

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Speaker 5: So when you look at the data per se, women

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Speaker 5: in general listen longer to patients. Women who are operated

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Speaker 5: on by women do better. Overall, if a man is

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Speaker 5: operated by a woman or by a man, their outcomes

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Speaker 5: are the same. Now wow yeah, oh wow, So that's

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Speaker 5: the data. That's not to say uniform. That's the case.

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Speaker 5: There are amazing male physicians to do a beautiful job

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Speaker 5: of listening and are empathic, and then there are female

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Speaker 5: physicians that are not. Right. We can't just split this

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Speaker 5: along gendered in sex.

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Speaker 1: Lineskay, But generally if you're a woman, you're in better

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Speaker 1: hands with a woman doctor if.

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Speaker 5: You will agitated. But I would like to say is

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Speaker 5: that that doesn't have to be that way. We can

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Speaker 5: value nurturing, we can value listening, we can value empathy

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Speaker 5: from any doctor that shows up. And I think we

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Speaker 5: have to bake that back into our system. That's kind

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Speaker 5: of sidelined some of those qualities that are really essential

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Speaker 5: to being a good doctor and have pressured our system.

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Speaker 3: Dramatically, doctor Clem, and I asked, if you had ever

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Speaker 3: not been believed, have you ever dismissed a female patient,

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Speaker 3: And come to realize, oh wow, she was actually saying

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Speaker 3: something that I didn't hear.

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Speaker 5: You know, one of the stories in the book, if

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Speaker 5: I can be somewhat provocative.

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Speaker 2: Was you can go as a safe space.

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Speaker 5: Okay, so we're just going to go there. You can

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Speaker 5: start giving me hand signals if if it's a bit much.

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Speaker 2: Nothings as off limits, okay.

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Speaker 5: So I had a woman who isn't She must have

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Speaker 5: been in her late seventies, and this amazing photographer and

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Speaker 5: artist and just sort of fabulous with big glasses, and

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Speaker 5: I love taking care of her. And she had been

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Speaker 5: put on in aromatase inhibitor, which, as you know, depletes

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Speaker 5: the amount of estrogen. Can cause joint aches, it can

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Speaker 5: cause decrease libido, it can cause vaginal dryness, it can

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Speaker 5: cause decreased bone density. It can have a lot of

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Speaker 5: different side effects. And when I spoke with her, I

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Speaker 5: neglected to talk about her sexual health. And one day

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Speaker 5: she came in and she said, you know, I'm really

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Speaker 5: having some problems with my special friend, and I thought, well,

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Speaker 5: this lady lives alone. What is she talking about? And

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Speaker 5: I got all excited that I that there was some

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Speaker 5: new person, her new special friend. And I said, well,

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Speaker 5: you know who's your special friend? And she said, it's

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Speaker 5: my vibrator. And you you never talk to me about

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Speaker 5: what the hell would happen to me on this aromatase inhibitor.

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Speaker 5: And I'm miserable. And so I had dismissed that an

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Speaker 5: older woman would want to be sexually vibrant and thriving.

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Speaker 5: And she said, that's a real problem. You got to

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Speaker 5: think about why you didn't talk to me about that.

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Speaker 5: You talked to you about about other women. Why did

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00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,399
Speaker 5: you neglect to think about that with me? My special

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Speaker 5: friend is very important to me. And so there have

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Speaker 5: been many patients along the way. I am human and

393
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,119
Speaker 5: I have drank the kool aid as well about a

394
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,160
Speaker 5: lot of the legacy that we inherit when we show

395
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Speaker 5: up at the doctor's office, a lot of the bias

396
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Speaker 5: whether we're doctor or as patient. So as much of

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Speaker 5: writing this book was not only to help patients, but

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Speaker 5: it's the kind of book I wish I had read

399
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Speaker 5: in medical school. And I perfectly not perfectly, but I

400
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,120
Speaker 5: have to humbly own what has happened to me along

401
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Speaker 5: the way and what I have learned.

402
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Speaker 1: I've never heard I heard it put that way to

403
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:55,680
Speaker 1: where it snaps, and I get it in a better

404
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,920
Speaker 1: way in that you're talking about a woman and yeah,

405
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:03,399
Speaker 1: a vibrator, right, But you had a bias against this

406
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,479
Speaker 1: woman based on her age. There are so many other

407
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,920
Speaker 1: women that walk in bias based on their education level

408
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:10,440
Speaker 1: that a doctor we're looking at, Ah, you're not a

409
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,359
Speaker 1: colle educator, so I don't have Or this is because

410
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 1: of race. Is that what we're talking about, the same thing,

411
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:21,560
Speaker 1: that example, But that is the way that someone could

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Speaker 1: get less healthcare or not get the type of quality

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Speaker 1: care they deserve because a doctor like you. And I'm

414
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Speaker 1: not getting onto you, but to that point, just makes

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Speaker 1: a simple conclusion based on age, race, or whatever it

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Speaker 1: may be.

417
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Speaker 5: And I think it's not always intentional. I show up

418
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 5: with the good intentions, but part of writing this book

419
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,919
Speaker 5: was to unpack again this legacy that we may not

420
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Speaker 5: even be aware of that we inherited. The book walks

421
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Speaker 5: through history and there are extraordinary examples, going back to

422
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Speaker 5: the Greeks to the Middle ages to the nineteenth century

423
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,359
Speaker 5: that will blow your mind. I guarantee you that medical

424
00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,840
Speaker 5: history can be fascinating and engrossing, and those examples are

425
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:03,920
Speaker 5: obvious where it's like, oh my god, I can't believe

426
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,160
Speaker 5: they did that. What I think becomes more insidious and subtle,

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Speaker 5: and even worse is to recognize the ways that we

428
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Speaker 5: don't even realize that we are showing up that way.

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Speaker 5: And if we look at our medical system when we

430
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Speaker 5: think about the aging woman, what we learn about so

431
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 5: much in medical school is women at the age of puberty,

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Speaker 5: women and their reproductive function and their reproductive fitness. But

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Speaker 5: that woman who goes through menopause is less tended to

434
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Speaker 5: in our medical system. That aging woman who may have

435
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 5: cognitive decline is less tended to in our medical system.

436
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 5: And much like medicine doesn't exist in a vacuum, but

437
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,439
Speaker 5: is so inextricably linked to society, we neglect the aging

438
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 5: woman as a society. So that trickles through into how

439
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 5: we study women as the age, how we care for

440
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,199
Speaker 5: women as the age, and how we tend to their

441
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 5: medical problems as the age. And that was very much

442
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 5: something that clearly I was doing in my practice and

443
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 5: didn't realize.

444
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:56,640
Speaker 1: Wow.

445
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,200
Speaker 3: I mean, you're a daughter, you have your own daughter,

446
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,640
Speaker 3: you're a woman, you're a self, and yet you know

447
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 3: we're continuing to perpetuate this. I mean, it actually makes

448
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,440
Speaker 3: me sad. I remember I have a very good friend.

449
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,159
Speaker 3: She was in her sixties and she said to me,

450
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 3: there's nothing as invisible in this world as a woman

451
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,159
Speaker 3: past menopause, Like people don't even see you. Your value

452
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 3: goes down significantly. So then what is your advice to

453
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:25,119
Speaker 3: women of any age to make sure that you're owning

454
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,399
Speaker 3: your own health care and that you're asking the right questions.

455
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 3: And let me ask you this, as a doctor, is

456
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 3: the onus on the patient, on the woman?

457
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 5: I think the onus is really on that doctor patient

458
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 5: relationship and our society at large, our medical system at large.

459
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 5: And then, you know, Amy, you talk so much about

460
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,439
Speaker 5: what it means to not just survive, but to thrive,

461
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 5: And much of writing this book is the idea that

462
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 5: everybody that we're in has a history, a history we've

463
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 5: been told by our family, by society, by the healthcare system.

464
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 5: And my hope is, after reading all of these stories,

465
00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 5: can women tell a different story about themselves? And in

466
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 5: that can we ask better questions about what it means

467
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 5: to really have a good day, what it means to

468
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,199
Speaker 5: really find joy, what it really means to thrive. And

469
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,679
Speaker 5: so my hope is that patients will come back to

470
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,160
Speaker 5: the healthcare system, come back to their doctor and say,

471
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 5: as that woman getting older, you know what I miss

472
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 5: this or this is what I really value in feeling good.

473
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 5: It's not just about making sure you get your paps,

474
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 5: mirror and your colonoscopy. But you know, I really enjoy

475
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 5: playing piano. But my hands are bothering me. I have

476
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 5: these joint aches and I don't know what that's about.

477
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,919
Speaker 5: I would like to access that again. Can you help me?

478
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 5: So I think there's really this two way dynamic that

479
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 5: we have to create space for. And that's what I'm

480
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 5: really talking about changing this narrative about women's health moving forward.

481
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 1: Why is this so hard to cure cancer?

482
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 5: Oh? Wow, you're really going for it.

483
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 2: Well I have's let's do it.

484
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: I seem all I feel almost silly asking the questions,

485
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: right because we talk so much about it. It seems

486
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: to be so much money. She always was the thing.

487
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 2: You say, there's a cure for cancer, it's called cash. Yeah, yes,

488
00:23:59,000 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 2: it's a question.

489
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 5: So I think part of it is the history of

490
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,400
Speaker 5: what we've called cancer. So you know, a leukemia, where

491
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,640
Speaker 5: you have a replication of a blood cell many times over,

492
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 5: is extremely different from a solid tumor cancer, like where

493
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,160
Speaker 5: you have one cell that multiplies awry in the colon

494
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 5: or the breast. So again, cancer is just one cell

495
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 5: in your body, starting in one tissue that starts to

496
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,640
Speaker 5: multiply too much and then develops the ability to invade

497
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 5: and travel. So that is the basic definition. But when

498
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 5: we talk about curing cancer, a blood cancer is so

499
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 5: wildly different than a breast cancer, so wildly different than

500
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 5: a lung cancer. But yet we've created this like how

501
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 5: we're going to cure all of cancer. And I think

502
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 5: it's the reason why it's so complicated is because we've

503
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 5: used this one name for a very very It's like saying,

504
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 5: how we're going to cure an infection, right, but a

505
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 5: skin infection is totally different from a pneumonia. And so

506
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 5: we have these very, very complicated diseases that are not

507
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 5: only very unique biologically just in a petri dish, But

508
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 5: then again we have to think about the hosts that

509
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 5: they live in. You can have the same biological cancer,

510
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 5: the same diagnosis in two different women, but how they

511
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 5: do and how that interacts with their whole body and

512
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 5: how they experience illness is entirely different. So it's a

513
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 5: very very very complicated web that you know, you have

514
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 5: so many people dedicated to working on.

515
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 3: Do you think that there will be a cure to

516
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 3: metastatic cancer in your lifetime?

517
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 5: I hope so, I hope so. I mean, I say

518
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 5: you believe that, I believe it. I mean I am

519
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 5: desperate to be out of a job in that way.

520
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 5: I think we both know the trauma that that really

521
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,479
Speaker 5: far too many women suffer from and have endured, and

522
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 5: it's it is unacceptable. I think, much like people can

523
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 5: live with a chronic disease like diabetes or heart disease.

524
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 5: I think that is a very reasonable that we're already

525
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 5: doing that. Can we make it all go away? I

526
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 5: certainly hope so, But I'm not I'm not sure.

527
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 3: Do you know what you said, I'd be happy to

528
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 3: be out of a job, you know. And this floored

529
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 3: me when I started going through this. How many people

530
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 3: out there do believe that there is a conspiracy within

531
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 3: the healthcare community to make sure that cancer isn't cured

532
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 3: because a lot of people, doctors, pharmaceutical companies would be

533
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 3: put out of business.

534
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 2: What do you say to that, because I know you've

535
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 2: heard that before too.

536
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 5: I have heard that before, and I have a hard

537
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,959
Speaker 5: time not crying when I when I answer that question.

538
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 5: And I will try to answer it as logically as possible,

539
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 5: because people may say, well, you're just too low on

540
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 5: the total pole. You don't know what really goes on

541
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 5: behind the scenes. But having cared for royalty, having cared

542
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 5: for people who have seemingly more money than God, who

543
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 5: could buy out any pharmaceutical company, and you know, hire

544
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 5: any CIA agent to I, I don't know, uncover some

545
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 5: secret cure in a corner. It doesn't it doesn't fit right.

546
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 5: People with all the power in the world world have

547
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,479
Speaker 5: died from cancer. People with all the love and power

548
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 5: and money who would do anything possible and could have

549
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 5: still lost love once to cancer. People at pharmaceutical companies

550
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 5: have died of cancer with all of their power and

551
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 5: insight into how everything works. It's understandable because it's a horrible,

552
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 5: horrible disease. And also there's a lot of mistrust, understandably

553
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 5: in our healthcare system. How could this possibly be? How

554
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 5: have you not figured it out yet? But yet there

555
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 5: have been incredible advances from academics, from pharmaceutical companies, from

556
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 5: government institutions that have really allowed cancer to look incredibly

557
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 5: different than what it used to when I first started out,

558
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 5: whether it's immunotherapy, whether it's women living for years and

559
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 5: years and years with metastatic disease, whether it's some women

560
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 5: who are getting treatment from metastatic disease and I can't

561
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 5: see their cancer on their pet skin anymore. We have

562
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 5: made tremendous advances and I hope will continue to do so.

563
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 5: And I am sympathetic to this conspiracy theory because it

564
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 5: is scary and how could this possibly be so hard?

565
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:04,959
Speaker 5: But it is?

566
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,640
Speaker 1: Was it a king, a queen, the prince, you said,

567
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: royalty that nobody else skipped over? That it's just going

568
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: to slide.

569
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 5: I think any doctor that brags about who they care

570
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 5: for is a problem. Right, We don't need to hitch

571
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 5: our start to anybody.

572
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 6: They hit me with that, But but I think that

573
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 6: I say it to say that, you know, whether it's

574
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 6: high ranking political leaders, royalty, people with billions of dollars,

575
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 6: I don't even know how much.

576
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 5: Cancer effects is an equal common denominator to suffering.

577
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: Dude, are we throwing everything at it? Even if right,

578
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: even though it's not a conspiracy? Are we still doing

579
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: all that can be done? Of course, more money is

580
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: always a good thing. But is there a collective enough

581
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: of a of an effort going on out there? Are

582
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: we doing enough to try to cure cancers?

583
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 5: I think there's never There's never enough because we have

584
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 5: such a huge problem. I wish that we could inspire

585
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 5: younger generations to go into cancer, to go into oncology,

586
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 5: to go into research. There are so many incredible minds

587
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 5: out there that I sometimes wonder if you weren't developing

588
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 5: a video game, could you come on board and help

589
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 5: us out right? Could you think outside the box? What

590
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 5: are we missing? I'm humble, right, and I think it

591
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 5: has to start with new and fresh ideas and humble

592
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 5: ability to really pull together people from various different walks

593
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 5: of life and different backgrounds. Because one of the problems

594
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 5: with medical science is you never want to get too comfortable,

595
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 5: and you never want to be too siloed in your ideas,

596
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 5: and that means really bringing in people of different interests

597
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 5: and capacities. So for anybody with kids who are thinking about,

598
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 5: you know, developing another toy, maybe there's something else we

599
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 5: could do with that bright.

600
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 4: Minds, right, I love that, doctor Colemann.

601
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 3: How many women do you think, I mean, this is

602
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 3: just give me an idea perspective, have lost their lives

603
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 3: because they weren't believed.

604
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 5: I don't obviously, I don't have numbers on that. I

605
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 5: think there's two different ways that I think about that.

606
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 5: There's losing their life meaning being alive, but being miserable,

607
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 5: and I think that is countless. I think countless of

608
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 5: women have asked questions far too late in life about

609
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 5: what they really want, how they really want to feel,

610
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 5: how they can feel better in their bodies, So that

611
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 5: number is countless. In terms of medical error and people

612
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 5: feeling invalidated, that's complicated, but I think that also happens

613
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 5: far too commonly. But the bigger problem of women not

614
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 5: feeling like they have the runway to access the medical

615
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 5: that they really want is countless. It's unfortunate that every

616
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,479
Speaker 5: woman says to me, I love your title. I have

617
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 5: a story for you. Everywhere I go, I have a

618
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 5: story for you. Let me tell you what happened to me.

619
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 5: Let me tell you what happened to my mom. Let

620
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 5: me tell you what happened to my daughter. I don't

621
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 5: want this title to resonate so much, but yet it

622
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 5: strikes a chord with every woman I talk.

623
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 3: To, and it's this whole notion of hysteria. Yeah, talk

624
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 3: a little bit about if you're a woman and you're

625
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 3: saying and you're in pain, and maybe there isn't a

626
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 3: test to say, ah, this auto immune disease, that's what

627
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 3: you're suffering from it. I know people and so many

628
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 3: women talk about chronic fatigue, chronic pain, kind of not

629
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 3: even being able to describe it, coming and going, and

630
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 3: being too embarrassed to have someone look at you skeptically

631
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 3: or tell you it's all on your head. They just

632
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 3: live with it, this whole notion that we're just hysterical

633
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 3: or we don't have a high pain tolerance. How do

634
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 3: you combat that?

635
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 5: It's interesting I just gave a talk to a group

636
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 5: of young women, probably in their mid to late twenties,

637
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 5: and I said, I wasn't sure what the answer was

638
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 5: going to be. How many of you have ever been

639
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 5: told that you were hysterical? Every single one of them

640
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 5: raise their hand. If you go back in history, the

641
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 5: word hysteria derives from the Greek word for womb and Hippocrates,

642
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 5: and you know where we say the Hippocratic oath had

643
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 5: all these treaties and there were other doctors that aligned

644
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 5: with him that basically said, the wandering womb is the

645
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 5: source of all women's ills. And over course of time,

646
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 5: obviously we learned that actually it's tethered in place. It's

647
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 5: not that we have to put certain smells next to

648
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 5: our nose and other smells next to our vagina to

649
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 5: reposition the uterus, but that was what they thought we

650
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 5: should do.

651
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:36,479
Speaker 2: Throughout history.

652
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 5: This specter of the ghost of the hysterical woman lingers

653
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 5: on till today. Whether it was also our ovaries that

654
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 5: made us crazy or even worse, your bathes and estrogen

655
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 5: and that's just every cell of your body is completely

656
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 5: screwed because we're so hormonal. This has infiltrated every aspect

657
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 5: of our medical care and what we study and what

658
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 5: we understand. It wasn't until the nineteen eighties that it

659
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 5: was even removed as medical diagnosis.

660
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 2: Hysteria, Yeah, was a medical diagnosis.

661
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 5: Absolutely hysterical. Yeah, nineteen eighties, Well I just got chills?

662
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: What yeah?

663
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 4: What?

664
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 5: Yeah? That was an actual diagnosis that you could be

665
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 5: diagnosed with, But yet it gets translated in different ways.

666
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 5: And there's also the other component of that women somehow

667
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 5: endure suffering and that we are meant to endure And

668
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 5: perhaps that even goes back to original Sin and Adam

669
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 5: and Eve. We can dissect that. But whether it's women

670
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 5: in pain or women from fatigue or any sort of ailment,

671
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 5: there is throughout history this thread of we are just

672
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 5: suffering too much. And in part it's because in recent years,

673
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 5: in the last one hundred and fifty years, our medical

674
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 5: system was created. And I'm not bashing men, but it

675
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 5: was created not by women and not by listening to women.

676
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 5: And so if you have female predominant diseases, how were

677
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 5: those men supposed to understand them unless they really took

678
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 5: the time to listen to women. And a lot of

679
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 5: what I'm trying to change now is we have to

680
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 5: reconfigure this narrative of how we listen to women to

681
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 5: better understand their symptoms, to not just say, oh, you're

682
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 5: tired because you know you're a new mom, you're joint

683
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 5: aches because you didn't sleep well, have a glass of

684
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 5: wine and relax. It's just you know, or maybe it's

685
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 5: that time of the month.

686
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: Well, but what do you do with that, because sometimes

687
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: it's a badge of honor for women will say all

688
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: the time, but what they can take, what they can

689
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: endure and have their pain tolerance even higher. You've been

690
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: very arrogant about that at times, with me having the

691
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 1: same illness or.

692
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,720
Speaker 2: Whatever we call it man flu right, Yes, I think.

693
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: But really that is that that is very pervasive in

694
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: our society that sometimes even women take that as a

695
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: badge of honor, and you're saying you should not.

696
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 5: No, I think that women also apologize. They apologize for

697
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 5: their pain, They apologize for needing to take care of themselves.

698
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 5: They apologize for having to call out sick when they're

699
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 5: you know, got a fear or one hundred and four.

700
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 5: I think we need to have pacts with each other

701
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 5: to stop apologizing, to say you don't need to be

702
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 5: in this much pain, let me help you. And that

703
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 5: takes that takes village because sometimes it's hard for women

704
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 5: to do that by themselves.

705
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, you write about and this one really struck me

706
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,399
Speaker 3: about some of the patients who've apologized to you, and

707
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 3: why they were apologizing to you.

708
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, so the opening of the book is a woman

709
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 5: who apologizes to me on her deathbed for sweating. Not

710
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,439
Speaker 5: the first nor the last woman to apologize. Every day

711
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 5: in my clinic, women apologize to me for basic functions,

712
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 5: whether it's I forgot to shave the hair under my

713
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 5: armpit or I'm having a hot flash. I'm so sorry,

714
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 5: you just gave me really scary news about my pet scan.

715
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 5: I'm sorry now that you're examining me that I'm sweating.

716
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 5: Why is that? It's unacceptable and it really holds women

717
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 5: back from actually having the space and the comfort to

718
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 5: access what's really scaring them, as opposed to apologizing to

719
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 5: the authority in front of them.

720
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: You know, I'm reacting to that because of you, Rotes

721
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: that this wasn't on goodness. So many times if I

722
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 1: end up at NYU with you over the past year

723
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: and a half or a couple of times, the reason

724
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: of the other but one of them was doctor Coleman

725
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: was your case. He was your on collegist telling you

726
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,479
Speaker 1: to get in that saw something she didn't like on

727
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about.

728
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 3: Here right, Well, it was it was my obgyn because

729
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 3: my tamoksovin uterus and she saw I did not take

730
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 3: care of what was happening with my uterus, and I

731
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 3: let it go a year and things had grown, and

732
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 3: there was concern that now there could be potentially uterine

733
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 3: ca cancer or some polyps that were developing that weren't healthier. Good.

734
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: Well, this was full doctor comba. This was full freak

735
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: out mode, right. And again we hadn't gone in yet,

736
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: but this was it had gone a week or two

737
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: weeks and the doctor was onner about going in and

738
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: another situation to where she just didn't want to know, right,

739
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: didn't want to know. But we go to this appointment

740
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 1: and you made me think of it. In the story

741
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: you were just telling. Is that we're sitting I'm sitting

742
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 1: there with her. She's got the gown on. The woman

743
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 1: is doing the ultrasound right right right. She was looking

744
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: for the ores right right, all right, and she couldn't

745
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: find the second right, she couldn't find one. Am I

746
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,280
Speaker 1: over it? This was the thing she during this exam.

747
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 1: I'm watching her. She's not asking questions, She's not wondering

748
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: or what's going on? Or is there an issue or

749
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: where is it or what can I do?

750
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 2: Nothing?

751
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: To the point I felt like like this isn't my party,

752
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: but hey, I got a question. To the point, I

753
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 1: did more talking in her exam than she did. It's

754
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 1: called fear, and that was bizarre. But to your point,

755
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: there even looking and we walked out of there not

756
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,720
Speaker 1: having a resolution or feeling better because she couldn't find

757
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: something on the scan right, And so you making the

758
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: example of telling the point about being believed or speaking

759
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: up or apologizing almost for the tech not being able

760
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 1: to find her over like, I'm sorry, am I Over

761
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: is tucked in there. I don't know where it is.

762
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 2: I'm not sure where it is.

763
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,839
Speaker 1: That was bizarre to me, but that sounds like it's

764
00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:59,919
Speaker 1: normal to you. That's a normal thing.

765
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 5: Well, I also think when you're so anxious and you

766
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 5: said fear, when you're so fearful, you're in fight or

767
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 5: flight in mode and you just want to exist in

768
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,240
Speaker 5: that moment any way you possibly can. But how lucky

769
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 5: she was to have you there, because we all need

770
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 5: an ally, we all need no matter I don't care

771
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 5: how smart you are, how empowered you are, what an

772
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 5: advocate you are, everybody needs someone with them when they're terrified,

773
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 5: to help ask those questions, to help for reassurance, to

774
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:32,720
Speaker 5: make sure you have another set of eyes and ears

775
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 5: with questions and answers, to say, you know what that

776
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 5: wasn't answered, Can we try that again?

777
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 1: You know, when she puts it that way, I felt rude.

778
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 1: I didn't want to speak up. But when you say

779
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: it that way, you need to be there to support

780
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 1: somebody who is who has fear, who is feeling fear.

781
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 1: That's a good way to put it.

782
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, And especially sometimes when someone's this strong woman who

783
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 5: can articulate and is really powerful and informed, that doesn't

784
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 5: mean that you don't need somebody there with you and

785
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 5: your side. And I tell patients all the time, you know,

786
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 5: our healthcare system is hard to add, it's hard to navigate,

787
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 5: it's hard to advocate for yourself sometimes, so having somebody

788
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 5: there with you who can bring a set of questions

789
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 5: is really important. It's also essential to know how you're

790
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 5: going to get information right because we have my chart

791
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 5: right now speaking of fear, where a lot of patients

792
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 5: can get information before your doctors.

793
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 3: I can read labs and think I don't want this information.

794
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 3: I don't know what to do with it, and it

795
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 3: looks scary, and I don't like my brother. I'm lucky

796
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 3: as a physician, and early on when I was getting

797
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 3: some of this stuff, I would just send it to

798
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 3: him and say, please tell me what this means. I

799
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 3: don't know what any of this means. So there is

800
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 3: this information without any explanation, and I certainly don't have

801
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 3: an MD. So yeah, you can go into a tailspin.

802
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's really important to speak to your care team

803
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 5: about how you want to get information, because that type

804
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 5: of information without context is not compassionate or thoughtful care.

805
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 5: It's just terrifying rabbit hole Google like nightmare, right, And

806
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 5: we wouldn't google how to fly a plane and then

807
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,280
Speaker 5: try to do it, but yet it's like we're given

808
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 5: some instructional manual and then it's terrifying. But that's the

809
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 5: nature of much of our healthcare system right now, and

810
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 5: you have to be careful about how you want that

811
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:12,439
Speaker 5: information and who's going to communicate with you.

812
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 1: To be clear, you would recommend people do not start

813
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:17,720
Speaker 1: googling if you have a medical issue.

814
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 5: No, but we all do. I do the same thing

815
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 5: to you, right, so I think.

816
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 2: How you do it too? Of course I love that, okay, but.

817
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:25,439
Speaker 5: We all need it.

818
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 2: We all need it.

819
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 5: I have like three in the morning, it's the worst time. Right,

820
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 5: we're a I don't know everything everything. It's I'm just

821
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 5: I'm human, I'm mayor myself right, But I think knowing

822
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 5: how who should you call in your your doctor may

823
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 5: not be available. Is there a nurse, Is there a

824
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 5: nurse practitioner? Is there someone that can schedule an appointment

825
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 5: with you? Really knowing how your doctor's office works, so

826
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,479
Speaker 5: that you can kind of have these landmarks when things

827
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:52,320
Speaker 5: start to spiral.

828
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 3: I also love something that you wrote about in this

829
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 3: book because my brother gave me permission to do this.

830
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 3: And I say permission because it is one of those

831
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 3: weird things. It doesn't matter what you do in your life,

832
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 3: who you are as a woman, maybe how outspoken you'd

833
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,479
Speaker 3: be when you're talking about someone else, but somehow, some way,

834
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 3: when it's you and it's your health care or it's

835
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 3: your concern, I know that I tend to feel like

836
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 3: I just have to look up to the doctor as

837
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 3: God and I don't know anything and they know everything.

838
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 3: And my brother was always so quick to say amy

839
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 3: second opinions, third opinions, and if you don't like how

840
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 3: someone's talking to you or treating you, by all means,

841
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 3: get another doctor. And you said the same thing, and

842
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 3: that was like I needed him to be able to

843
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 3: say that to me for me to feel like I

844
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 3: could because when you don't know, and you know you

845
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 3: don't know, you think, well, that other person's got to

846
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 3: be telling me the truth.

847
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 5: And you want to see a doctor who's comfortable with

848
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 5: you get a second opinion too, Right, I'm thrilled if

849
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 5: patients are worried and want another set of eyes, go

850
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 5: for it, you said earlier in the conversation. You know

851
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 5: what you know, right, I know what I know and

852
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 5: i know what I don't know, and I'm humble enough

853
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 5: in that. And if someone feels that they need to

854
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 5: speak with somebody else or want me to partner with

855
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 5: somebody else, I'm delighted to do that.

856
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,720
Speaker 1: Okay, that's probably be a warning sign if your doctor

857
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: doesn't want you to get a second opinion or gets

858
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,240
Speaker 1: an attitude about you getting a second opinion.

859
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 5: But that happens all the time. Wow, Yeah, what was.

860
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 1: The doctor you were just saying? They they found they almost.

861
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 2: Got on to you, like what you didn't feel that,

862
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 2: so I had the This was tough.

863
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 3: The day I was diagnosed with breast cancer, the radiologist

864
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 3: who was reading my sonogram in that moment obviously saw

865
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 3: one of the masses and she took my hand and

866
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 3: took my two fingers and put it up on the

867
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 3: side of my breast, right underneath my armpit where the

868
00:42:58,080 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 3: mass was, and she said.

869
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 2: You didn't feel that. Let me just tell you.

870
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:04,919
Speaker 3: If there was a way for me to feel worse

871
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 3: in that moment, she found it. And I remember feeling shame.

872
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 3: Here I am being diagnosed with cancer, and now I'm

873
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 3: ashamed that I didn't do brest self examinations. And so

874
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 3: that was one of those moments where it's just I'm

875
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 3: sure there wasn't an intention to be mean, but it

876
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 3: was like, to feel shameful about your cancer was a

877
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 3: whole new level for me in that moment.

878
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,439
Speaker 5: It's horrible. I'm so sorry that happened to you. And also,

879
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 5: I think women feel shame about their bodies even for

880
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 5: their normal bodily functions, let alone when they have a

881
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 5: cancer diagnosis, and that pervasive shame absolutely gets in the

882
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 5: way of every aspect of women's healthcare.

883
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, well, thank you for that, And it was

884
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,439
Speaker 3: a lesson. It was just an experience to learn from

885
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 3: and grow from you. In that same vein, I was

886
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 3: saying this to TJ when we were looking at your book.

887
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 3: The Latin name for or female genitalia is.

888
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 5: What opeduendum that area to be ashamed.

889
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, it literally means that. Can you explain, because I

890
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 3: was my jaw drop when I read this.

891
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 5: Well, there's all sorts of language, and language is become

892
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 5: so important with respect to the subtle cues that we

893
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 5: give women, and they're not so subtle cues, but in

894
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 5: multiple different ways, we are taught to shame or ignore

895
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 5: parts of our bodies. If you look at the clitterists

896
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 5: throughout anatomical history, it is lost and found and men

897
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 5: who claim to find it as if women didn't know

898
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 5: where it was. How is that possible? In the Renaissance,

899
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 5: the debate between these anatomus was just simply mind boggling, like, honey,

900
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:42,760
Speaker 5: I don't think you found.

901
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 2: It, but that's great if you have to ask, yeah, yeah.

902
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 5: And then men claiming to have the name for it.

903
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 5: But then in Gray's Anatomy in the nineteen forties, it

904
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,359
Speaker 5: wasn't even included in there. So it took till two

905
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 5: thousand and five for a female urologist to even map

906
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 5: the actual anatomy of the clitorists. So that's a problem

907
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 5: Ian and five to use MRI imaging to actually map

908
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 5: the full nerve anatomy. And we wonder why there's an

909
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 5: orgasm gap, and it's never talked about or discussed. But

910
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:16,760
Speaker 5: here we are, yes, well, we all.

911
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 3: Have daughters, and you know it is something that needs

912
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,319
Speaker 3: to be talked about. It's an important part of being

913
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 3: a woman, and so many women miss out on it

914
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 3: because it's shameful or not to be discussed right.

915
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 5: Well, one of the themes throughout the book is how

916
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 5: much woven into medical history and medical discovery and medical

917
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 5: care for women, the fear of women's sexual desire, desire,

918
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 5: and or the need to control it infiltrated every aspect

919
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 5: of medicine. Whether you could ride a bike or not,

920
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 5: whether your scoliosis was caused from somehow masturbation, whether your

921
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 5: asthma was to blame for some sort of sexual habit.

922
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 5: Throughout history this is pervasive. And then when we think

923
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 5: about the legacy today, why are we two times more likely?

924
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,760
Speaker 5: Why did I have that bias towards my older patient.

925
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 5: Why are we two times more likely to ask men

926
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 5: about sexual side effects from a chemotherapy, asian or cancer

927
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,919
Speaker 5: targeted therapy than we are men. There are so many

928
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,760
Speaker 5: ways that we have lagged behind in addressing women's sexual

929
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 5: health and medicine, and we are still playing ketchup generally.

930
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: Look, you're going to continue your work no matter who's

931
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 1: in Congress and who's in the White House, but in

932
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: your community, and I'm not asking you to play politics

933
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 1: or pick candidates or anything like that, But do you

934
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 1: will have a concern during a political cycle that what

935
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: happens in DC and what happens and who is in

936
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 1: the White House will have an impact on women's health

937
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 1: as a whole. Again, we only end up talking about

938
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 1: abortion rights so often, but IVF is obviously being talked

939
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: about a lot in South But do you all in

940
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: your community have that concern in an election year of

941
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 1: the future of women's health over the next couple of

942
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 1: years or election cycle based on who's there.

943
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 5: Politics dictate the type of care women can rest, both

944
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 5: by legislature but also by funding right and we see

945
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 5: how this is dramatically affected women's access to quality care

946
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:11,919
Speaker 5: in recent years. I think many of us are very,

947
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 5: very very scared. Throughout history, so much of women's bodies

948
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 5: have been seen as vessels and that is the priority,

949
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 5: and I am very much politically aligned against that.

950
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 1: Where So you said it does matter, what are your

951
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: concerns going into this election cycle.

952
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,840
Speaker 5: Then, I'm concerned about so many different things about funding

953
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 5: for women's health. I'm concerned about women's access to reproductive health.

954
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 5: I'm concerned about women's ability, as we know the ruling

955
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:43,839
Speaker 5: in Alabama, their ability to have a family. So many

956
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 5: of my patients were able to have families despite a

957
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 5: cancer diagnosis because they had access to quality IVF, because

958
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 5: we could move quickly in a matter of days to

959
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 5: preserve their fertility. And to think that that would be

960
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 5: harmed or taken away from them as the exact opposite

961
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 5: of helping and thrive.

962
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: We often have these debates about it appears to be

963
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 1: old white women telling old white men, excuse me, and

964
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 1: Washington telling women what they can do with their bodies.

965
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 1: But there are a lot of women who voted for

966
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: these old white men. There are a lot of women

967
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: who are still engaged in this and could be impacted

968
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 1: by the conversation we're having and about women's health. How

969
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: do we are you all? I guess it's up to

970
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: all of us, But how where do you see the

971
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: conversation happening with women and mobilizing women more so as

972
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 1: almost I mean, not a one issue group obviously, but

973
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,320
Speaker 1: to vote more for their own health.

974
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 5: I think it's so important. I think you know, yes,

975
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:45,720
Speaker 5: I've wrote this book and I have this more public

976
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 5: platform to speak about women's health. But where all of

977
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 5: this started are the private stories that patients have told me.

978
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 5: Democrat or Republican, it doesn't matter. Women have suffered from

979
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 5: not feeling like their needs were heard, whether it's a

980
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 5: political or religious or medical standpoint. And I think more

981
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 5: women need to share their stories because some of these

982
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 5: women that may have voted one way may be voting

983
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,959
Speaker 5: because their husbands have voted a certain way. They don't

984
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 5: feel like they have as much agency, They feel like

985
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 5: they have to align with people in their community. But

986
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 5: then in very private settings say I'm terrified I voted

987
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 5: this way, but I'm terrified. I'm terrified for myself and

988
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 5: I'm terrified for my daughter. And the more we can have,

989
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 5: at least alliances about what we're really feeling and what

990
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:29,879
Speaker 5: we're really afraid of. Then perhaps when we go into

991
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 5: that private voting booth, we can have our own mindset.

992
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 3: That was so well said, because until something happens to

993
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 3: you or to someone you love, you can think you

994
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 3: think one way. But then when you don't share your

995
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 3: stories and you don't share your experiences. I'm a huge

996
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 3: advocate in the power of one voice. I love that

997
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:53,280
Speaker 3: final bit of advice for women to share their stories,

998
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 3: to speak up, to have an advocate, you know, even

999
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 3: those of us who want to feel like we're strong,

1000
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:00,040
Speaker 3: And I love.

1001
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 2: To having you. TJ makes fun of me. He says,

1002
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 2: I'm like Amy always.

1003
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,839
Speaker 3: Okay, I don't want know who wants to be weak,

1004
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,280
Speaker 3: who wants to be physically or emotionally weak in any way.

1005
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 3: But it's when we let our guards down and we

1006
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 3: actually are open and vulnerable, be willing to have someone

1007
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 3: there by your side with you to speak for you

1008
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 3: when you can't because it's gonna happen and it's okay,

1009
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 3: and just admitting all of that and having real, honest conversations.

1010
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,879
Speaker 3: I love this book. It was long overdue, and yes,

1011
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 3: it's sad that that title resonates so much, but it

1012
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 3: does so many women have felt that way, and until

1013
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 3: we start being honest about that, that's how we start

1014
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,280
Speaker 3: to change things. But thank you as always for everything

1015
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 3: you do, for the patients you serve, for the people

1016
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 3: you inspire, and for the work that you continue to do.

1017
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 3: And I know our paths will continue to cross as

1018
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 3: we both advocate for better research, better funding, and finally

1019
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 3: finding a way to have cancer.

1020
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 5: Thank you for sharing in the mission. I appreciate you both.

1021
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 1: And again, folks, the book is called All in Her Head,

1022
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 1: The Truth in lies early medicine taught us about women's

1023
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 1: bodies and why it matters today, by doctor Elizabeth Coleman.

1024
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: The book is available everywhere that books are soul. We

1025
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 1: appreciate you listening as always. You can find Rogues and

1026
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: I of course on individual Instagram accounts, but you can

1027
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:27,320
Speaker 1: also find the show at Amy and TJ the podcast