Speaker 1: You're listening to the Buck Sexton Show podcast, make sure
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Speaker 2: All right, what's next for Israel's war against Hamas. We
Speaker 2: have people over at Axios, for example, sharing this that
Speaker 2: Israel plans do the quote occupy and flatten all of
Speaker 2: Gaza if no hostage and ceasefire deal is reached by
Speaker 2: the end of President Trump's trip to the Middle East.
Speaker 3: That is from a fellow named Barack Ravid.
Speaker 2: David Ifoon joins us now and he is the publisher
Speaker 2: of the New York Sun, and we're going to dive
Speaker 2: into all this now, David, always good to.
Speaker 1: See you likewise, but.
Speaker 3: Well, what do you make of this? I mean, this
Speaker 3: is from Axios.
Speaker 2: They're saying that the next phase is to quote flatten
Speaker 2: all of Gaza and occupy it if there are if
Speaker 2: there's not a full release of all remaining hostages. What
Speaker 2: can you tell us about the state of this war
Speaker 2: and what happens next.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you bring this up, Buck. You know,
Speaker 1: I was in Israel back in two thousand and five
Speaker 1: when Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip and I
Speaker 1: hate to take you all the way back, but it
Speaker 1: is relevant that was at the time Israel governed the
Speaker 1: whole of the Gaza Strip. There was a lot of
Speaker 1: international pressure regarding peacemaking. If you listeners will recall, Ariel
Speaker 1: Sharon was the one who spearheaded this. He actually had
Speaker 1: to form a new government in order to be able
Speaker 1: to pull it off. He was encouraged at the time
Speaker 1: by George W. Bush and Condoleeza Rice, but ultimately ended
Speaker 1: up pulling all Israelis out of the Gaza Strip in
Speaker 1: two thousand and five. I was there for all the protests.
Speaker 1: I saw the chaos on the ground. I saw, you know,
Speaker 1: some of you might remember the orange shirts. That was
Speaker 1: kind of the banners, and the theme of the protests was
Speaker 1: color orange. But you know, people were really screaming and
Speaker 1: shouting about the disaster that they felt would unfold at
Speaker 1: the time, and it so happens. You know, since Hamas
Speaker 1: took over Gaza in two thousand and seven, which is
Speaker 1: just two years after that pullout, I've now been in
Speaker 1: the position where I've basically overseen coverage of five different
Speaker 1: wars in Gaza, five different wars in Gaza, and what
Speaker 1: has become quite apparent even throughout this latest round, is
Speaker 1: that if you really do want a scenario where there
Speaker 1: are no more wars in Gaza, which obviously is good
Speaker 1: for the people of Israel, but more than the people
Speaker 1: of Israel, even it's good for the people in Gaza,
Speaker 1: you need to get rid of Hamas, and you need
Speaker 1: to get rid of them completely. You know, to get
Speaker 1: rid of eighty percent of Hamas or ninety percent of
Speaker 1: Mamas is like getting rid of eighty or ninety percent
Speaker 1: of a buyer. As some Israeli officials have put it,
Speaker 1: it will sprout again and will take over again if
Speaker 1: it's not if it is not completely excised, they have
Speaker 1: Harmas has taken over every single element of society and
Speaker 1: living in the Gaza strip. And you know, I think
Speaker 1: at the beginning of this process, it seems he's really
Speaker 1: sort of tried to see if they could figure out
Speaker 1: how to get Hamas out of the picture using more
Speaker 1: conventional methods. But it seems that they've arrived at the
Speaker 1: conclusion that the only way to really do that is
Speaker 1: to just sweep the slate entirely clean and stuff from
Speaker 1: scratch again.
Speaker 2: So does it seem like then it is true that
Speaker 2: is there going to be some uh taking occupy, occupying
Speaker 2: occupation of this area that is essentially like a DMZ.
Speaker 3: Do you think that's is that going to be the plan?
Speaker 1: I mean, it certainly looks like they're lining that up.
Speaker 1: Is an option. You know, it would be easy for
Speaker 1: everybody if Hamas just demilitarized, give up, the hostages, stepped
Speaker 1: out of the picture. But it seems apparent they're not
Speaker 1: going to do that. And if they aren't going to
Speaker 1: do that, Israel is basically faced with two choices, right.
Speaker 1: One choice is to kind of continue with the status
Speaker 1: quote where Hamas is still placing a stranglehold on how
Speaker 1: the flow of goods and aid circulate. They're still controlling
Speaker 1: the lives of a lot of the people in Gaza.
Speaker 1: They still have the capacity to wage water to some degree,
Speaker 1: and obviously if they're left alone, they will continue to
Speaker 1: be able to do that to a larger degree. So
Speaker 1: that's option one. Option two is to just, you know what,
Speaker 1: could completely take over and remove Hamas from power and
Speaker 1: everything that relates to it and start again from scratch.
Speaker 1: And you know, obviously that's not going to be easy.
Speaker 1: It's not easy for Israel. They've got to put their
Speaker 1: soldiers into hum'swey again. There's a huge mobilization effort now
Speaker 1: in the south of Israel. I mean, people down there
Speaker 1: tell me all the tanks are going down, all of
Speaker 1: the reservists are being called up. I mean, they are
Speaker 1: mobilizing right now for full scale war. So it's not
Speaker 1: easy for Israel. It's not easy for gardens either, in
Speaker 1: the sense that you know, a lot of garzens have
Speaker 1: been displaced for a very long time. We're seeing now
Speaker 1: what I think we believe for a long time that
Speaker 1: a lot of gardens don't support Hamas. I mean, plenty
Speaker 1: of gardens do support Hamas, but there are also gardens
Speaker 1: that don't their effectivity living under a totalitarian regime where
Speaker 1: every single aspect of their lives is owned by Hamas.
Speaker 1: Their food, the medicine, their kids' lives is owned by Hamas.
Speaker 1: So you know, it would certainly be a tough period.
Speaker 1: But if at the end of it, there's a scenario
Speaker 1: where there's no Hamas and you know, they can start
Speaker 1: the process of rebuilding with new power structures. At least
Speaker 1: certainly there's a real opportunity for Israelis to be free
Speaker 1: and at peace, and also an opportunity for Garzen people
Speaker 1: to finally live in a scenario where where they can
Speaker 1: have direct relations with the world at large or why
Speaker 1: the community, whether kids aren't being recruited for terror all
Speaker 1: day and all night. They can have access, open access
Speaker 1: to information and maybe create the embers of living in
Speaker 1: a better world and a better future for themselves and
Speaker 1: their families.
Speaker 2: So is it then accurate you think to say that
Speaker 2: the goal here, the strategy for the IDF, these really
Speaker 2: defense forces, is the destruction of Hamas as an entity.
Speaker 3: That that is accurate? Right?
Speaker 2: If this, if this war goes the way that it
Speaker 2: seems to be, it's not beat back Hamas until they
Speaker 2: are at a fraction of their normal or you know,
Speaker 2: general strength. It is Hamas is effectively an issue no more.
Speaker 3: Is that?
Speaker 1: Is that accurate? I mean, that's exactly accurate. And that's
Speaker 1: why you know, when when officials are talking about flattening Gaza,
Speaker 1: this is not kind of like a salt the Earth strategy.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's actually quite pragmatic in the sense that
Speaker 1: throughout the years that you know, Gaza has been built
Speaker 1: up in the way that it's been built Hamas infrastructure
Speaker 1: has been integrated into absolutely everything and everywhere. I mean,
Speaker 1: there are you know, super high end apartment buildings in
Speaker 1: Gaza that have you know, Hamas tunnels and Hamas infrastructure
Speaker 1: built into them. A lot of them were funded by Katar,
Speaker 1: by the way, and you know, it's hard to see
Speaker 1: a scenario where Katar wasn't complicit in that. But I mean,
Speaker 1: the only way to sort of know with certainty that
Speaker 1: Hamas is gone is really to take an inch by
Speaker 1: inch approach, and that involves, you know, looking under every
Speaker 1: stone and every rock and every tunnel and every building,
Speaker 1: and that's you know, what would be necessary in order
Speaker 1: to achieve that result. I think that's it seems to
Speaker 1: me that that is what the Israelis have determined. After
Speaker 1: going at this for for nearly two years.
Speaker 2: It's been it's been a long fight already. How much
Speaker 2: longer do you think it will take before they would
Speaker 2: achieve that objective?
Speaker 1: Well, I think you know when it has gone for
Speaker 1: a long time. But just keep in mind that they've
Speaker 1: been in different phases, right, There'll be phases where it's
Speaker 1: paused for negotiations as phases, and then the various you know,
Speaker 1: short term deals that have been enacted. But the other
Speaker 1: thing to keep in mind is that Israeli society and
Speaker 1: the Israeli Army is very much a citizen army, and
Speaker 1: there are certain requirements that Israeli government has to keep
Speaker 1: in mind. So for example, they can't keep reservists signed
Speaker 1: up for more than three months. Right. Some of them,
Speaker 1: you know, they have businesses, they have families. You know,
Speaker 1: you have folks like you and me who have day jobs.
Speaker 1: Suddenly they're called off to go and fight in Kaza,
Speaker 1: and you know, some of them are startup entrepreneurs or
Speaker 1: this or that. You know, it's they they got to
Speaker 1: be able to come back to that. And then I
Speaker 1: think also frankly, part of it is, you know, many
Speaker 1: of the soldiers are students, they're in university, they're finishing
Speaker 1: the semester. So on a practical basis, the summer is
Speaker 1: a better time to mobilize the IDF, which is probably
Speaker 1: why you're seeing this sort of timeline emerging. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, if they're at full scale and they're you know,
Speaker 1: focused on getting the job done, I think it's weeks,
Speaker 1: especially being as Hamas is so depleted as it is now,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: We'll come back and talk about Iran here in a
Speaker 2: second with Dovid Ifoon of the New York Sun. Our
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Speaker 2: free info KD today. Now Iran, you've started to hear
Speaker 2: some talk, David that even in the US and the
Speaker 2: Pentagon there's a disagreement about how Iran and its nuclear
Speaker 2: program should be should be handled. What are we to
Speaker 2: think about this because for so many years now I
Speaker 2: can't even begin to countertrack it. We've been told Iran
Speaker 2: is getting closer, Iran is so close, Iran is closer
Speaker 2: than it's ever been right, and we say, okay, well,
Speaker 2: what are we doing or what does that mean? What
Speaker 2: do you think the posture of Israel is right now
Speaker 2: with the Iranian nuclear program? And what should the Trump
Speaker 2: administration be doing?
Speaker 1: Well? Look, first of all, just to put a line
Speaker 1: under sort of the contrasting visions for how to deal
Speaker 1: with Iran, the view of the if I'm administration, for example,
Speaker 1: And frankly, you know, at certain times and from certain
Speaker 1: people in the Trump administration, you hear the same thing
Speaker 1: the Europeans. You hear Iran cannot be allowed to get
Speaker 1: a nuclear weapon, right. The position of the Israelis is
Speaker 1: Iran cannot be allowed to have nuclear weapons capability, which
Speaker 1: are two completely different ideas. One is that Iran might
Speaker 1: have the tools in its kitchen to create a nuclear weapon,
Speaker 1: but we're not gonna allow them to push the button,
Speaker 1: and the Israelis always maintained, well, that's very risky. You
Speaker 1: kind of have to trust the Iranians if you're going
Speaker 1: to allow them to have the whole setup. We want
Speaker 1: a scenario where they're not just pulling out the plug
Speaker 1: from the machines, but they are dismantling the machines entirely,
Speaker 1: and the and the weapons production capability. So that's been
Speaker 1: kind of a source of a big disagreement for a
Speaker 1: long time. And you know, I think in the early days,
Speaker 1: you know, with Witgoff and others sort of talking about
Speaker 1: engaging with Iran, they were using similar language to the
Speaker 1: above administration, which certainly had the Israelis alarmed. But more recently,
Speaker 1: you know, the language has been more precise in the
Speaker 1: sense that they're saying, we don't want to allow nuclear
Speaker 1: weapons capability. I mean, look, at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: the best way to deal with this is for the
Speaker 1: Iranians to understand that they have a really serious amount
Speaker 1: at stake if they continue to pursue it and to
Speaker 1: undo the progress that they've done on their own, which
Speaker 1: is obviously really difficult, but there is I would say
Speaker 1: a window now, an opportunity. Now Iran is incredibly weak
Speaker 1: and incredibly isolated. The Trump administration has shown this ability
Speaker 1: to be super tough on Iran in terms of sanctions,
Speaker 1: and I think if they really ratchet up the pressure
Speaker 1: and they it seems like they've at least opened up
Speaker 1: a willingness to do so, there is the possibility of
Speaker 1: achieving that outcome without the need for any military intervention. Obviously,
Speaker 1: having a credible threat for military intervention is part of
Speaker 1: what it takes to get the Iranians to take this seriously.
Speaker 1: The other factor, which of course is significant and should
Speaker 1: not be underestimate, tool is the degree of internal opposition
Speaker 1: that you have in Iran, and the weakening of the
Speaker 1: regime by the Trump administration of buying the international community
Speaker 1: by definition strengthens the internal opposition within the country. So
Speaker 1: the two peaceful ways are, you know, pressure that is
Speaker 1: absolutely ascruciating on the Iranian regime, that that you know,
Speaker 1: convinces it that it's worth getting rid of the nuclear
Speaker 1: program or and possibly simultaneously, the strengthening of the internal
Speaker 1: opposition to the point where regime changes is a real threat.
Speaker 1: But in the end of the day, you know, the
Speaker 1: military option, you know, needs to be on the table,
Speaker 1: either as a as a practical last resort or as
Speaker 1: you know, a very firm alternative pathway that is presented
Speaker 1: to the any regime to the extent that they're looking
Speaker 1: at these conversations and taking them really seriously.
Speaker 2: Talk about the campus anti semitism stuff here a second.
Speaker 3: At first up.
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Speaker 2: c K. I don't know if you saw, but Bill
Speaker 2: Ackman talking about that there needs to be some change
Speaker 2: at Harvard at the very at the very top level.
Speaker 2: I think in the Board of Overseers or that you know,
Speaker 2: the whatever it is, you know, you giving me a face,
Speaker 2: what you don't you don't like your you want the
Speaker 2: Harvard board to stay the same.
Speaker 3: What do you think about this?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it's it's insane what's going
Speaker 1: on there. And I don't want to compare campus to
Speaker 1: Gaza and Hamas, But you know, these kind of ideas
Speaker 1: are just so deeply integrated into every level of some
Speaker 1: of these elite liberal institutions in this country that it's
Speaker 1: hot to see that any of these changes, superficial changes
Speaker 1: are really going to make a difference. I mean, the
Speaker 1: truth is, you want to change Harbor, you've got to
Speaker 1: fire half the professors and bring in people with alternative views. Now,
Speaker 1: what are the chances of that happening? You know, you're
Speaker 1: going to change the overseers. Are they going to do that?
Speaker 1: Is anybody going to do that? Like, if you really
Speaker 1: want to have an open minded institution where you have
Speaker 1: free debate, free discussion, free ideas, you can't have ninety
Speaker 1: eight percent of all of the personnel being sort of
Speaker 1: apparatics for the Soviets or you know, whatever the liberal
Speaker 1: the work zeitgeist is at that particular time. So the
Speaker 1: truth is, I think the more realistic pathway is not
Speaker 1: that Harvard's going to change or Yale it's going to change.
Speaker 1: Is that alternative institutions are going to displace them. And
Speaker 1: you know, you're already seeing sort of what they call
Speaker 1: the Ivyes of the South. I know, in the Jewish community,
Speaker 1: it used to be a huge badge of honor to
Speaker 1: go to Harvard or Yale or this or that. Now
Speaker 1: a lot of parents are telling their kids, you know,
Speaker 1: what you pick something else, you know, it's just not
Speaker 1: worth it. And the truth is, if you have to
Speaker 1: think about it big picture, you know, those are very
Speaker 1: powerful brands, but they should not take for granted just
Speaker 1: how quickly big brands can become devalued. I mean, you
Speaker 1: saw what happened with bud Light or this or that.
Speaker 1: You know, if that Zeit guy sort of takes hold,
Speaker 1: you know, the brand of Harvard and the brand of
Speaker 1: Yale will just not have carry the same weight or
Speaker 1: the same value that they've carried in the past. You know,
Speaker 1: in the end of the day, frankly, you know, Harvard Yale,
Speaker 1: if we're talking about anti Semitism, they need their Jews
Speaker 1: more than the Jews need need Harvard. That's the truth,
Speaker 1: because you know, if there is a boycott, if people
Speaker 1: aren't sending their kids there, if Jewish or as ready,
Speaker 1: professors don't want to teach there, if if they don't
Speaker 1: want to engage in you know, shared research programs, you
Speaker 1: know you'll end up with just this rabbel, you know
Speaker 1: echo chamber of kind of like radicals, and they'll just
Speaker 1: you know, feed off each other and eat each other alive.
Speaker 1: And you know it'll be the end of these great institutions,
Speaker 1: and certainly what Trump's doing on the on the money
Speaker 1: is gonna certainly accelerate that significant.
Speaker 2: Do you agree with with that position from Trump that
Speaker 2: if these places don't clean up their rack, they should
Speaker 2: stop getting the federal dollars they're getting.
Speaker 1: I think so in the sense that you know, there
Speaker 1: federal dollars always have strings attached, right, It's not like
Speaker 1: a given, it's not a right to get to get
Speaker 1: money from the government. And like in a lot of
Speaker 1: these institutions, there's real like reverse discrimination, right, and it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's not just Jewish students, but like I
Speaker 1: don't know, Christian white men probably feel isolated in a
Speaker 1: very similar way and other kind of groups. But you know,
Speaker 1: you really have a scenario where it's no longer a
Speaker 1: merits based system, and it's you know, it's class based,
Speaker 1: or it's race based, or it's this or that. And
Speaker 1: for to have an expectation then that the US government,
Speaker 1: namely the taxpayer you and me, should have to pay
Speaker 1: for that, it's completely reasonable to say, well, you know what,
Speaker 1: this is not what the American people, how the American
Speaker 1: people want us to spend their money.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely our sponsors IFCJ International Fellowship of Christians and Jews.
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Speaker 1: Come enway son, don't come.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, that's I think. And why in New York? Yes?
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Speaker 2: And how are you doing by you know, I'm a
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