WEBVTT - Crypto Joins The War in Ukraine

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for Bloomberg News,

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<v Speaker 1>and this is Bloomberg Crypto at Daily Bloomberg I Heart Podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Friday June. Before the Russian invasion of Ukraine in February,

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<v Speaker 1>the Ukrainian government and the crypto community did not quite

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<v Speaker 1>see eye to eye. There was skepticism, distrust, and even

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<v Speaker 1>a few police raids on unlicensed crypto exchanges. But since

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<v Speaker 1>the war broke out there's been a shift. Digital asset

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<v Speaker 1>leaders in Ukraine are now hailed by some as heroes

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<v Speaker 1>because of their work with the Ukrainian government to finance

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<v Speaker 1>the war effort, and they're scoring some big successes along

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<v Speaker 1>the way. Ukraine's Deputy Minister Phy Digital Transformation has said

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<v Speaker 1>the crypto donations enabled the army to buy military equipment

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<v Speaker 1>and medicine. Today I'm joined by Bloomberg Report Alistamosh to

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<v Speaker 1>talk through his reporting on how Ukraine has been using

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<v Speaker 1>crypto during the war to support its armies and its population. Alistair,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you so much for being our guest today, my Peta,

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<v Speaker 1>thanks for having me. We're going to talk about the

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<v Speaker 1>war in Ukraine from a crypto angle, which for folks

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<v Speaker 1>who haven't been following along closely might seem like a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit of a strange way to tackle this topic.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'd love for you to set the stage about

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<v Speaker 1>what as it relates to Ukraine and crypto has been

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<v Speaker 1>interesting but also been a sometimes controversial place for the industry,

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<v Speaker 1>and how that has changed in light of the war

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<v Speaker 1>with Russia. Well, so, the situation in Ukraine when it

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<v Speaker 1>comes to crypto is in some in many ways not

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<v Speaker 1>just similar to the experiences that you've had in many

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<v Speaker 1>other countries in that the authorities have been suspicious to

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<v Speaker 1>say the least of crypto, but what's been really amazing

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<v Speaker 1>to witness. I mean, obviously this is in some ways

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<v Speaker 1>a smaller story of the broad struggle that Ukraine has

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<v Speaker 1>been through in the credible journey that the Ukrainian people

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<v Speaker 1>have been on these last months. But one one sort

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<v Speaker 1>of small chapter of that is how the attitudes towards

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<v Speaker 1>crypto have changed fundamentally, because a couple of years ago,

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<v Speaker 1>actually Ukrainian authorities viewed crypto with deep skepticism and there

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<v Speaker 1>were frequent raids of crypto exchanges and anyone involved in

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<v Speaker 1>crypto activity from both the Special services and other government bodies.

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<v Speaker 1>It was viewed as you know, sort of the classic

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<v Speaker 1>idea of this is just drug money on this is

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<v Speaker 1>money for illicit purposes and there's no good use for

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<v Speaker 1>this technology or this that type of asset. But actually

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<v Speaker 1>the war experiences totally transformed there. It's been kind of

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<v Speaker 1>miraculous to see that actually the war effort is being

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<v Speaker 1>financed in part by crypto, and Crypto is playing a

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<v Speaker 1>critical role in enabling the government to source military equipment,

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<v Speaker 1>humanitarian aid, all kinds of necessities that it needs. Despite

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<v Speaker 1>the relentless onslaught of Russian forces, Ukraine's vital tech sector

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<v Speaker 1>is still operating for clients around the world, while Ukraine's

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<v Speaker 1>own tech leaders are helping support the war effort and

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<v Speaker 1>working around the clock to keep their own employees safe.

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<v Speaker 1>Right now, so you're holding up your phone. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>one of the things that really struck me when we

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<v Speaker 1>were doing reporting on the situation with Crypto and Ukraine

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<v Speaker 1>after the Russian invasion was how many developers protocols, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the kinds of bits of crypto infrastructure that people have

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<v Speaker 1>come to rely on. Our manteein either out of the

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<v Speaker 1>Ukraine or by Ukrainian devs, and you know, given that environment,

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<v Speaker 1>were you more or less surprised that crypto has an

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<v Speaker 1>emerged as this lifeline during the war. You're definitely right

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<v Speaker 1>that there was a very vibrant local crypto scene in

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<v Speaker 1>that there were many developers locally. They are articals based

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<v Speaker 1>people working on various projects in Ukraine. And actually Michael

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<v Speaker 1>Chabani in who's ahead of the Kuna crypto has changed

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<v Speaker 1>that the biggest exchange in Ukrainian I'm sure we'll we'll

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<v Speaker 1>be talking about in a moment. He called the crypto

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<v Speaker 1>scene wild back in the day, and there was both wild,

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<v Speaker 1>one because you had the sort of the government suspicion

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<v Speaker 1>and crackdown of which I've spoken but also because you

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<v Speaker 1>kind of had a real vibrant local scene where you

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<v Speaker 1>had many people working on different projects and there was

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<v Speaker 1>a real buzz about it. He talked about meetups where

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<v Speaker 1>there would be hundreds of people, you know, into the thousands,

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<v Speaker 1>gathering on a weekly basis. That's very different to any

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<v Speaker 1>experience that I've had in London. So there was this

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<v Speaker 1>sort of acceptance of crypto, both in terms of having

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<v Speaker 1>plenty of Ukrainians working in the industry, but also there

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<v Speaker 1>are statistics showing that Ukraine is either the first or

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<v Speaker 1>suddenly in the top three in terms of countries globally

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<v Speaker 1>that use crypto. So those kind of this underlying um

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<v Speaker 1>acceptance among the people. It was just sort of at

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<v Speaker 1>the government that although there was a suspicion, and now

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<v Speaker 1>that's totally transformed. So I guess it's sort of an

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<v Speaker 1>aligning of government and state with the people. And you

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned Michael Servanion, who has really been instrumental in making

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<v Speaker 1>that alignment happen, right, So he he is sort of

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<v Speaker 1>apocryphally known as the father of the crypto scene in Ukraine.

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<v Speaker 1>You interviewed him at the very beginning of the war

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<v Speaker 1>by voice memo back and forth to hear more about

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<v Speaker 1>the developments at the time. And one of the big

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<v Speaker 1>things that was happening, you know, in the in the

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<v Speaker 1>days immediately following Russia's invasion of the country was the

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<v Speaker 1>crypto community rallied around philanthropy in a way that was

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to say unprecedented, but at least remarkable

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<v Speaker 1>in that they were donating millions and millions and bions

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<v Speaker 1>of dollars worth of crypto to the Ukrainian government, and

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<v Speaker 1>what was really unusual was that they were doing that

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<v Speaker 1>to the Ukrainian government's or wallets. What was Trabanion's rule

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<v Speaker 1>in making this happen? Right, But he is actually a

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<v Speaker 1>really fascinating character. I mean he when I said that

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<v Speaker 1>I'd heard he was the godfather of crypto E in Ukraine,

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<v Speaker 1>he laughed and said, yes, that's what they called me.

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<v Speaker 1>I was the first guy who actually started publicly speaking

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<v Speaker 1>about the crypto, the first guy who actually did you know,

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<v Speaker 1>to be honest, there's a lot of stuff that I

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<v Speaker 1>did first, like the first at M, first, public trade,

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<v Speaker 1>first company, forced exchange, first, OTC first, you know, a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of first. So we spoke early March, so that

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<v Speaker 1>the war had been getting up just over two weeks

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<v Speaker 1>at that point, and this was the point when it

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<v Speaker 1>was clear that the Ukrainian government was asking or essentially

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<v Speaker 1>forcing or all military age men eighteen plus men to

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<v Speaker 1>stay in the country and fight. So I assumed when

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<v Speaker 1>I spoke to him that he would be somewhere in

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<v Speaker 1>the trenches or you know, we're doing some kind of

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<v Speaker 1>army job. No, I didn't join the army because I

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<v Speaker 1>felt really a good army man. I'm good with guns,

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<v Speaker 1>but only a theory. So my job is being a

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<v Speaker 1>crypto banker for the government. So I'm in charge of

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<v Speaker 1>collecting fundraising, um storing crypto, exchanging crypto to crypto, exchanging

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<v Speaker 1>crypto to FEAT, opening the bank accounts, or for intermediacy

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<v Speaker 1>or for the government, so we can change crypto to

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<v Speaker 1>FIAT and then wire them to our accounts, and without

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<v Speaker 1>those accounts we can buy some wherever. It's required by

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<v Speaker 1>the Ministry of the Bands. And there's some statistics that

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<v Speaker 1>they keep. The numbers keep changing, but the government puts

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<v Speaker 1>them out on Twitter from time to time, the decraining government,

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<v Speaker 1>and they say that's something like I think it's five

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<v Speaker 1>thou it's covery more than that now, um bullet proved best.

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<v Speaker 1>And then there are pictures of them having There are

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<v Speaker 1>pictures as the Deputy Minister of Digital Transformation, which is

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<v Speaker 1>a wonderful title, and he puts on his Twitter feed

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<v Speaker 1>if you ever inclined to look, pictures of armored vehicles

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<v Speaker 1>and weapons and bullet proved best and all kinds of

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<v Speaker 1>things that have been bought with crypto. So it's quite

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<v Speaker 1>quite remarkable. Really, We'll be right back to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>the innovative ways crypto is helping the war effort in Ukraine, Kuna.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, to that point about Germanian being the crypto bancor,

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<v Speaker 1>he has been. I remember one of the stats in

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<v Speaker 1>March was that of the hundred million dollars or so

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<v Speaker 1>that the government had raised at that point, and it's

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<v Speaker 1>way more than that at this point. You know, he

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<v Speaker 1>was managing like sixt of that money on their but

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<v Speaker 1>to buy that military equipment and other supplies that you're describing.

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<v Speaker 1>So it seemed like it's a pretty important and probably

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<v Speaker 1>very complicated rule right now for sure, and also in

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<v Speaker 1>some ways a little bit um. You know, it probably

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<v Speaker 1>goes against the grain a bit of his own background.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, to be working for the state is kind

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<v Speaker 1>of a funny thing for a crypto guy to do,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's so, I guess, all part of this sort

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<v Speaker 1>of patriotic national effort to be the Russians into supplying

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<v Speaker 1>what the people need to Yeah, I'm not sure he

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<v Speaker 1>would have ever imagined that he would be working for

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<v Speaker 1>the government, but that's that's where he finds himself. And

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<v Speaker 1>you're right, it is quite an important, quite an important role.

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<v Speaker 1>The battle for dome Bus remains Russia's strategic focus and

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<v Speaker 1>territorial gains have been slow in the face of stiff

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<v Speaker 1>Ukrainian resistance. Well, I'm glad you raised that point about

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<v Speaker 1>the tension between you know, the the anti government libertarian

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<v Speaker 1>roots of a lot of crypto and a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>people in the scene, and the fact that so many

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<v Speaker 1>people rallied to give money not just to a government,

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<v Speaker 1>but to a military. And you know, it's certainly been

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<v Speaker 1>an interesting and challenging time for I suppose you could

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<v Speaker 1>call them the crypto purists who have been for years

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<v Speaker 1>saying the point of this, of this, these tokens, the

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<v Speaker 1>point of this ecosystem is to avoid government interference of

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<v Speaker 1>any kind. Um And to have you know, a bunch

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<v Speaker 1>of folks who were very influential in the industry. You

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<v Speaker 1>had the heads of exchanges, you had the inventor of

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<v Speaker 1>ethereum all saying hey, this is a good cause and

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<v Speaker 1>we should rally around. That was was really quite remarkable. Indeed,

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<v Speaker 1>I think it exposes a lot of kind of the

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<v Speaker 1>tensions and contradictions within crypto. I mean, here's a kind

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<v Speaker 1>of approve of concept that bitcoin and kind of crypto

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<v Speaker 1>in the border sense has a social utility. Crypto is

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<v Speaker 1>providing almost like a humanitarian service here while in subways

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<v Speaker 1>it's not surprising, but you're right it does. It does

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<v Speaker 1>kind of go against the grain of the ethos yea,

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<v Speaker 1>the kind of anti libertarian stuff indeed, and to the

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<v Speaker 1>point about the G in in in e s G.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, the the idea of corporate government governance. It's

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<v Speaker 1>certainly raised a lot of interesting issues around sanctions and

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<v Speaker 1>sanctions of visions because one of the things that Ukraine

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<v Speaker 1>was also calling for was for exchanges to ban not

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<v Speaker 1>just people who are in the Russian sanctions list, but

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<v Speaker 1>any Russian citizens at all. And even the exchanges that

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<v Speaker 1>have been very supportive of Ukraine's crypto efforts came out

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<v Speaker 1>and said, no, we're not going to do that. If

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<v Speaker 1>somebody is on a sanctions list, we will absolutely comply

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<v Speaker 1>with that sanctions list. We will make sure that we're

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<v Speaker 1>not allowing them to use our services in any way,

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<v Speaker 1>but we're not going to ban everyone with a Russian

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<v Speaker 1>passport from using these services. Yeah, you're right, it is

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<v Speaker 1>really interesting, like be and also what should be the

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<v Speaker 1>response to to the state, um, what should be the

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<v Speaker 1>response to regulators and so on? That is still an

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<v Speaker 1>open question. By the stories about Bonance, for example, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>just shows you that we're in a world of greater

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<v Speaker 1>regulatory and government interests and oversight of the crypto markets.

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<v Speaker 1>So I guess you've got to be careful, how you well,

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<v Speaker 1>crypto businesses have to be more and more careful. Absolutely

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<v Speaker 1>matred here. Yeah, and Binances in the news because of

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<v Speaker 1>a blockbuster router's report that they had been responsible for

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<v Speaker 1>helping to launder a couple of billion dollars worth of

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<v Speaker 1>crypto that was associated with a North Korean hacking group

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<v Speaker 1>known as Lazarus, which they have of course scrupulously denied. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>but certainly something that is going to get to your

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<v Speaker 1>to your point, even more governmental scrutiny and quite likely

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<v Speaker 1>regulation in the coming weeks and months. Exactly, yeah, exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>Was this whole idea about how going back to my

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<v Speaker 1>point of about crypto being sort of providing a social

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<v Speaker 1>good here is that crypto I think the Ukrainians situation

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<v Speaker 1>that the war has proved that bitcoin and crypto can

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<v Speaker 1>provide great utility, great social benefit, but also can be

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<v Speaker 1>used for the finance terrible things too, So that the

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<v Speaker 1>sort of the argument about it's all just drug money

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<v Speaker 1>and terrorist financing. Well maybe, but there's also this side too.

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<v Speaker 1>This is a very in my mind, you're burning in Ukraine.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a very positive story for crypto and bitcoin, that

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<v Speaker 1>it is helping people and desperate needs to fight against

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<v Speaker 1>an oppressor. And you know that's a wonderful story to tell. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>that is a very positive notes on which to end,

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<v Speaker 1>So thank you very much for joining us. Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>You can find more of his reporting on the Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>Terminal on Bloomberg dot com and find him on Twitter

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<v Speaker 1>at Alistair g Marsh on the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto.

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<v Speaker 1>California's Silicon Valley is both a place and a philosophy,

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<v Speaker 1>often hailed as the place for US tech startups to

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<v Speaker 1>get their start. Vcs, or venture capitalists, are an integral

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<v Speaker 1>part of this mythology. These are the people who provide

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<v Speaker 1>the private capital billions of dollars worth, so these startups

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<v Speaker 1>can chase the next big thing. Despite the volatile crypto market,

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<v Speaker 1>some of those vcs are still betting big on the

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<v Speaker 1>potential of the blockchain. For the latest on this, we'll

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<v Speaker 1>talk to Bloomberg reporter Hannah Miller about how Crypto is

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<v Speaker 1>influencing VC and vice versa. I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael and

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<v Speaker 1>this is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and

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<v Speaker 1>I Heeart Radio. For more shows from iHeart Radio, visit

0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:44.160
<v Speaker 1>the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:48.080
<v Speaker 1>get your podcasts. Email your questions, comments, or suggestions for

0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:51.440
<v Speaker 1>the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net and find

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<v Speaker 1>us on Twitter. We're at Crypto. The supervising producer and

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<v Speaker 1>editor of this episode is Vicky ver Galina. Our producer

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<v Speaker 1>is Mohammed Faruk. Desta wander At is our engineer. Original

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<v Speaker 1>music by Leo Sidron. Bloomberg's head of podcasts is Francesco

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<v Speaker 1>Leafy