Speaker 1: Okay, interesting show today something we're gonna do something a
Speaker 1: little bit different. Got Marshall with me, and we are
Speaker 1: gonna but typically we just answer the questions that you
Speaker 1: send podcast at grangersmith dot com, but we're not gonna
Speaker 1: do that today. We're gonna answer your questions from the
Speaker 1: YouTube page, which is what Marshall and I asked you
Speaker 1: to do when we discussed something and maybe the first
Speaker 1: of many discussions about what is a good church, what
Speaker 1: to look for at a good church, different aspects according
Speaker 1: to the Bible of what a good church would be.
Speaker 1: And then I said, because this is such a deep topic,
Speaker 1: I said, go to the YouTube page, my YouTube page
Speaker 1: and find the video the podcast episode where it's actually
Speaker 1: called how Do I Find a Good Church? It's Marshall
Speaker 1: I talking just ten days ago from when we were
Speaker 1: record this right now, and comment on that, and then
Speaker 1: we can go through those comments and double down. So
Speaker 1: this is going to be just fair game for any
Speaker 1: of the podcasts I do from now on. You could
Speaker 1: go on the YouTube page and I'll try to keep
Speaker 1: an eye on that and make sure that we're kind
Speaker 1: of getting a pulse of what you're saying on there.
Speaker 1: So we're going to do that today. And the main
Speaker 1: topic we were discussing at that time, correct me if
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, but it was like multiple services, what's kind
Speaker 1: of part of it? And we'll make that argument again
Speaker 1: and where we think that it would be okay to
Speaker 1: have a multiple service church for sure, and define what
Speaker 1: we mean by multiple services. There's different, very different ways
Speaker 1: to do it. So we'll go down that path. But
Speaker 1: I want to say I want to kind of start
Speaker 1: with a clip that I took from that episode that
Speaker 1: we recorded. I took a clip. Paul got a clip
Speaker 1: for me. Is the guy that produces this and or
Speaker 1: edits this, and and I, to be fair, I don't
Speaker 1: ever really post things on Instagram or TikTok or whatever
Speaker 1: if it's just very boring and no one's going to
Speaker 1: really comment on it. So admittedly I will post things
Speaker 1: to make you think, like, wait, what did he just say?
Speaker 1: Because I say a lot of times I say on
Speaker 1: here that one of my purposes of this podcast is
Speaker 1: just so we all think together, let's consider things together.
Speaker 1: Let's because for so long, part of my testimony is
Speaker 1: as I look back, it's fascinating that I look back
Speaker 1: and I think I wasn't thinking through that. I wasn't
Speaker 1: taking anything that I read in the Bible or anything
Speaker 1: I knew about Christianity to its fullest extent. I wasn't
Speaker 1: running it out and chasing rabbit holes and thinking where
Speaker 1: if I think this, what does that actually mean? Or
Speaker 1: if Jesus said that, what would the be the implications
Speaker 1: of my life if he said that? So a lot
Speaker 1: of you know, just like a general rule of this
Speaker 1: podcast is I just want people to be let's think
Speaker 1: about it. I know you believe that, but let's think
Speaker 1: about what it means to believe that. And so the
Speaker 1: statement I made was this, I'll just put it here
Speaker 1: on the microphone so we get all here as grow would.
Speaker 1: The goal of the church is not growth. And a
Speaker 1: lot of times and a lot of people I talked to,
Speaker 1: I asked them, what's your goal here? And they say
Speaker 1: to grow? And is that is not the goal of
Speaker 1: the church. It's not what the Bible says. Go therefore
Speaker 1: and grow churches. Grow, grow one church and make it
Speaker 1: really big and make multiple campuses and pipe in all
Speaker 1: the messages on video. That got a lot of hate.
Speaker 1: I mean people I had to hide a few because
Speaker 1: of like language and just direct assaults on me. I
Speaker 1: think I do have a little bit of an issue
Speaker 1: because sometimes when I just pull a clip off this,
Speaker 1: I think I might sound a little judgmental because of
Speaker 1: the clip, and people were like, man, who are you?
Speaker 1: I'm so sick of you judging me and my church.
Speaker 1: I'm like, why, y'ah, I promise I'm so far from that.
Speaker 1: I just want to think through things. And here's my caption.
Speaker 1: What should be the main goal of a church? Comment below,
Speaker 1: Let's think about it together. There are parentheses, there are
Speaker 1: many subsidiary goals. Growth is definitely welcomed as a byproduct,
Speaker 1: but not a slam dunk indicator of faithfulness. Bad churches
Speaker 1: can grow with good marketing. And only a few people
Speaker 1: were like, oh, I see what you mean by this.
Speaker 1: Most people are like wrong or wrong no matter how
Speaker 1: you look at it. Growth is the goal. By the way,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of like throwing Marshall in on this. He's
Speaker 1: my pastor. But by no means am I saying like,
Speaker 1: we didn't talk about this today Marshall and I. He
Speaker 1: didn't know what I was going to go this direction,
Speaker 1: so I'm kind of just dragging him into this. But
Speaker 1: we're really close friends. You're my pastor, but we're also
Speaker 1: really close friends, and so we know each other well.
Speaker 1: I kind of when I I might have made a
Speaker 1: mistake in that by saying go there for. And the
Speaker 1: Bible doesn't say go there for and make big churches
Speaker 1: insinuating Matthew twenty eight. So everyone thought my answer was
Speaker 1: go make disciples. The church's goal is to make disciples.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's the church's goal either. And I
Speaker 1: need to explain this because my point is, what is
Speaker 1: the main the pinnacle, the main focus point, what is
Speaker 1: the why behind church? And I think about it in
Speaker 1: terms of when I was playing music or anything I've done.
Speaker 1: I want to think about what's the why? Why? Why
Speaker 1: are we doing this? And of course growing a church
Speaker 1: is a goal. Of course, making disciples is a goal.
Speaker 1: When you planted a mais when you were sent out.
Speaker 1: If they if they would have said, Marshall, what's the
Speaker 1: main your main focus? The main goal of a mais
Speaker 1: you have not you would not have said numerical growth. No, no,
Speaker 1: And so one person, Charlene with a s H. I
Speaker 1: think there were a few, but one person said, the
Speaker 1: main goal of a church is to glorify God. And
Speaker 1: I was like, amen. See the idea that I wanted
Speaker 1: I want people to think about is if your main
Speaker 1: goal is to glorify God, then then one of your
Speaker 1: main purposes to do that is to be faithful in it,
Speaker 1: to be faithful, and and a good byproduct is that
Speaker 1: God will grow the church through faithfulness and that will
Speaker 1: glorify Him. So it's man centered. It's horizontal centered ideas
Speaker 1: versus vertical centered ideas. I had this, had this epiphany
Speaker 1: on last Saturday as I was kind of thinking through
Speaker 1: this and I was looking at a lot of people.
Speaker 1: A lot of people are really upset with me with
Speaker 1: saying that the goal is not to grow because they're
Speaker 1: just like, you're such an idiot. You know, why would
Speaker 1: you not want to grow a church? Anything that's good
Speaker 1: grows in this world? You know. I understand all that.
Speaker 1: I'm not from planet Mars here. But I had this
Speaker 1: epiphany when I was watching college game Day and Nick Saban,
Speaker 1: former head coach of Alabama, was talking and he said
Speaker 1: he said, was they were talking about Florida State and
Speaker 1: how bad they're doing, and they were like, what happens
Speaker 1: to a school A team like to state, how does
Speaker 1: the coach lose the team? And he said, well, I
Speaker 1: remember in my old days when I was a transactional
Speaker 1: coach and my goal was winning and everything revolved around
Speaker 1: winning and losing, and I started to lose my team
Speaker 1: because of that until I learned to be a transformational coach.
Speaker 1: He said. This happened in nineteen ninety eight for him.
Speaker 1: He became a transformational coach and instead of winning and
Speaker 1: losing as the goal, the goal, instead of outcomes is
Speaker 1: the goal. Instead, it was the process. It was transforming men,
Speaker 1: modeling someone that they would want to emulate and be
Speaker 1: like so that they could succeed not just in the
Speaker 1: game or the season, but in life as young men,
Speaker 1: and they could grow as young men and be someone
Speaker 1: that was equipped for all the suffering and afflictions that
Speaker 1: if brought. And when he did that and focused one
Speaker 1: play at a time on the process based on virtue
Speaker 1: and character that he set forth as the coach, they
Speaker 1: started winning, and they started winning a lot. And I thought, man,
Speaker 1: that is such such a good example of the church.
Speaker 1: Because if the pastor goes in and says I want
Speaker 1: to I want to grow the church numerically, then he
Speaker 1: will if that is the top pinnacle goal, he will
Speaker 1: sacrifice faithfulness for marketing, for topical sermons that attract people,
Speaker 1: for a new building. Someone really close to me right
Speaker 1: now is in a church that is in debt. They're
Speaker 1: losing members, and they have this advisory board that's coming
Speaker 1: in saying, in order to stop the leak, we need
Speaker 1: to build a new sanctuary that attracts more people, that
Speaker 1: attracts younger people, because sanctuary kind of looks old, and
Speaker 1: then that'll put us in more debt, but that that'll grow.
Speaker 1: That's an example of a church with the main priority
Speaker 1: is grow. Anyway, I'm kind of rambling now, but this
Speaker 1: is my point. I'm looking at through all these comments
Speaker 1: and as many people as we're really upset with me,
Speaker 1: I want them to know that. Of course, I think
Speaker 1: growth is a great thing for a church. I hope
Speaker 1: a Maya's grows.
Speaker 2: I mean, we talked about it when we started the
Speaker 2: church with all of our members, of you know, we
Speaker 2: would love for the Lord to add to our numbers,
Speaker 2: but that's not the primary goal. But we also were
Speaker 2: very clear with all of our members. If we're going
Speaker 2: to celebrate the Lord growing the church, we need to
Speaker 2: be just as excited at the church down the streets
Speaker 2: growing and we're not, because that's still Kingdom growth. And
Speaker 2: if that's really what we want, then we're going to
Speaker 2: celebrate that. Even if we stay at whatever number we're at,
Speaker 2: or you know, we only grow by a couple people
Speaker 2: and they're grown by one hundreds, it's we're gonna We're
Speaker 2: gonna celebrate what the Lord's doing there because that's the
Speaker 2: growth we want. So it's not anti growth, it's it's
Speaker 2: it's it's pro positive growth spiritually, which then leads to
Speaker 2: numerical growth. But also if people are growing spiritually, it
Speaker 2: makes some of the things that we're arguing for easier
Speaker 2: and kind of goes against some of the comments against
Speaker 2: why it's harder to do some of the things we
Speaker 2: were pushing for.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think a lot of this for
Speaker 1: me too, comes as I travel and I hear people
Speaker 1: tell me that their goal is numerical growth. And I've
Speaker 1: also had I've heard the argument several times that I mean, look,
Speaker 1: look how big this church is. You can't deny the
Speaker 1: Lord has his hand on this. And I always think, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: you can deny it because the Lord doesn't have his
Speaker 1: hand on Taylor Swift concerts, but those are growing numerically
Speaker 1: just really good marketing. I think you said that this
Speaker 1: is really good marketing.
Speaker 2: So I don't remember how the stuff I said.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know either. Anyway, I think that's what
Speaker 1: this where this conversation begins. And once again, this is
Speaker 1: just this is not calling out anyone specific at all. Uh,
Speaker 1: this is just to think through things. If a pastor
Speaker 1: was called to shepherd a flock of older people in
Speaker 1: a small church in a small town and he was
Speaker 1: just kind of ushering them into glory, and I don't
Speaker 1: think and he was faithful in his preaching, he was
Speaker 1: faithful in his in his philosophy of church. I don't
Speaker 1: think anyone look and go failing. That guy's failing because
Speaker 1: he's not numerically growing. And I think about those guys
Speaker 1: a lot. And there's a lot of those guys out there,
Speaker 1: some of them listening to this podcast that are just
Speaker 1: in very small churches that numerically on paper that they
Speaker 1: don't they don't stand up, they don't, they wouldn't look
Speaker 1: like you would want to replicate that idea. But these
Speaker 1: are faithful men. So yeah, so that's the kind of
Speaker 1: the beginning, and I think we should get we should
Speaker 1: specifically get into some of these comments on the last
Speaker 1: video talking about multiple services. And here's the idea behind that.
Speaker 1: Marshall and I talked about how replicating identical services on
Speaker 1: a Sunday I guess on Saturday night too, Sunday night
Speaker 1: as well, starts to split the family up. Starts to
Speaker 1: split the body up so much so that you have
Speaker 1: people attending church that don't know a fellow brother or
Speaker 1: sister that's in the same body that attends the nine
Speaker 1: am service and you attend eleven and you've never even
Speaker 1: known them. And so, in a nutshell, that's one of
Speaker 1: the problems of splitting up these services. Another problem is
Speaker 1: the Bible, UH is encouraging us to to grow multiple churches,
Speaker 1: not multiple services. So in the idea of a mais
Speaker 1: the church we attend, it was it was an extension.
Speaker 1: It was we were sent out from another church that
Speaker 1: was growing. And instead of that one church being all
Speaker 1: about itself, UH, it's sit down and replicated another church,
Speaker 1: not another campus, not an identical name, not piping in
Speaker 1: the message through a video monitor, but it's a completely
Speaker 1: autonomous church. A mais sent out from another one that
Speaker 1: was growing. Do you want to start anywhere particular with
Speaker 1: these comments, because there's some good ones on here and
Speaker 1: there's some good things to think about.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I'll say this up front. It doesn't
Speaker 2: nothing to do with the comments. But we said this
Speaker 2: last time, but I think some people maybe didn't catch it.
Speaker 2: This is not a core issue for us. So if somebody,
Speaker 2: if somebody were to, you know, call me and say, hey,
Speaker 2: look in the church in the town I'm in. There's
Speaker 2: this church that preaches the gospel faithfully every week, but
Speaker 2: they got three services. And I know you you're all
Speaker 2: about one service. And the only two churches in town
Speaker 2: that I can find that are close to me that
Speaker 2: have one service. You know, I think they preach the
Speaker 2: gospel most of the time, but maybe not all the time.
Speaker 2: And you know the pastor, you know, last Sunday, he
Speaker 2: really didn't even open his Bible. I was really encouraged
Speaker 2: by the message, but he didn't even what it was Bible.
Speaker 2: I would say, go to the three service church immediately.
Speaker 2: So this is not like a don't ever touch a
Speaker 2: church that has multiple services for me. This is a
Speaker 2: this is a find a church that preaches the gospel
Speaker 2: and will hold you accountable to your profession of faith.
Speaker 2: But the argument is is if the church is doing that, well,
Speaker 2: there's a way they can do it without having multiple services.
Speaker 2: And so I'm kind of taking or we're taking the
Speaker 2: step after that. Yes, if if somebody's going to say
Speaker 2: the only church in town that preaches a gospel has
Speaker 2: four services, I'm going to always tell you to go
Speaker 2: to that church. You need to be hearing the gospel,
Speaker 2: not somebody's opinions on stuff. And so this is not well,
Speaker 2: just because it's got one service it's a better church.
Speaker 2: That's not always true. And with that being said, we're
Speaker 2: also not saying, or at least I'm not saying smaller
Speaker 2: means better right at always in theory that's true, But
Speaker 2: smaller does not always mean better. Smaller does not always
Speaker 2: mean less problems. I got a friend who is a
Speaker 2: member of a church and they're going through some really
Speaker 2: rough stuff right now and they only have about fifty members.
Speaker 2: And so it's not smaller means better church. It's it's
Speaker 2: it's it's the same issue actually in both sizes, is
Speaker 2: what's the spirituality happening there? What's the what's the uh,
Speaker 2: the discipleship look like, what's the faithfulness to Jesus look like?
Speaker 2: In all the members? And so this this discussion around
Speaker 2: multiple services or one service really isn't specifically answering just
Speaker 2: that question, because it's there's probably four or five layers
Speaker 2: underneath that question that have to be answered first, right,
Speaker 2: because you won't go to the scriptures and find something says, look,
Speaker 2: you're only supposed to have one service that versus not there.
Speaker 2: And so what you have to do whenever you come
Speaker 2: to a situation like that where you're trying to think
Speaker 2: of what's the Bible say about this issue? Because it
Speaker 2: doesn't say a specific verse or passage on this issue,
Speaker 2: you have to go, Okay, what's what are the underlying
Speaker 2: things under there? So for this issue, it's well, what
Speaker 2: does the Bible say the church is? What does the
Speaker 2: Bible say the church does? What does the Bible say
Speaker 2: I'm supposed to do as a what does what does
Speaker 2: the Bible expect of me as somebody who is a
Speaker 2: member of a church? And when you answer those questions,
Speaker 2: the understanding of one service seems to make the most
Speaker 2: sense based on those things. So one of the things
Speaker 2: I noticed in all the comments that we got on
Speaker 2: that video, which I actually enjoyed reading those comments, even
Speaker 2: the ones that disagreed with us, because it made me
Speaker 2: think about my own position. Right, So the best way
Speaker 2: you can articulate your position is when you understand why
Speaker 2: people disagree with it, because it forces you to think
Speaker 2: through it. And so even in reading the comments a
Speaker 2: couple of days ago, I was having to think through, Okay,
Speaker 2: well how would I think through that? Or what is
Speaker 2: my answer to that? But in reading all the comments,
Speaker 2: not one of them said well, here's what the Bible
Speaker 2: says about this, and why I think multiple services are Okay,
Speaker 2: it was all experiential stuff. Well, here's my situation, so
Speaker 2: therefore multi services have to be right, or here's what's happened,
Speaker 2: so multiple services have to be right. And I'm not
Speaker 2: saying we have to ignore our situations in our circumstances,
Speaker 2: because those are things we have to think through and
Speaker 2: address and figure out how to navigate life around those.
Speaker 2: But those shouldn't be the main reason and why we say,
Speaker 2: well this makes it right? Is scripture supporting what you're
Speaker 2: saying or is it just convenient for you? So I'll
Speaker 2: say all that before going specifically into comments, because I
Speaker 2: think those there are some helpful things to think through.
Speaker 2: Of one, we're not saying just because you're a member
Speaker 2: of a church that might have multiple services, or maybe
Speaker 2: you're a pastor of a church as multiple services, you're
Speaker 2: lesser than or you're completely ignorant of everything that the
Speaker 2: Bible says on these issues.
Speaker 1: We know that's not true. Both of us have dear
Speaker 1: brothers that have multiple services. We brought this up last time,
Speaker 1: but everyone on this podcast knows Chad the multiple services.
Speaker 1: I'm literally preaching there in two weeks, and he is
Speaker 1: a faithful brother seeking to glorify God as the number
Speaker 1: one goal of the church. Then that's why I think
Speaker 1: that's such an important question, is what is the main
Speaker 1: goal of the church? And if you could answer by
Speaker 1: glorifying God, then then we can understand different whys behind
Speaker 1: the multiple services.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, I you know, as I travel, I encounter a
Speaker 1: lot of different people. I usually tell you this, Marshall,
Speaker 1: and one problem I see is churches that are that
Speaker 1: have grown and don't know what to do. There are
Speaker 1: four services in and people are still coming and they
Speaker 1: don't know what to do. And when that happens some
Speaker 1: of these wives you were talking about get answered the
Speaker 1: structure of the church itself. Are you the only pastor
Speaker 1: Usually the answer is yes. Who have you been discipling
Speaker 1: or trying to raise up in leadership? Nobody in seventeen years.
Speaker 1: You know that is a huge problem because if you
Speaker 1: of seventeen years of ministry, say, if you've been raising
Speaker 1: up young men and you're at your fourth service and
Speaker 1: you're busting at the seams, at some point you say,
Speaker 1: this kid right here is ready. He's twenty seven years old,
Speaker 1: he's been and older for me for seven years, he's
Speaker 1: been on staff for five whatever, and he's ready to
Speaker 1: go start a church over here in this area. And
Speaker 1: that's going to help. We're going to be able to
Speaker 1: send some people out from that fourth service. And so
Speaker 1: these are, just like you said, things to think through.
Speaker 1: And a lot of times when there's not a plan,
Speaker 1: that's an indication that the main goal was numerical growth.
Speaker 1: And the thruth is when you get there, sometimes you
Speaker 1: look back and go, now that I've gotten my goal,
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do with it because it's
Speaker 1: not sustainable.
Speaker 2: And there are situations where multiple services might actually be
Speaker 2: necessary in the moment, but they should be temporary of course.
Speaker 2: So for example, that just as we go talking to
Speaker 2: somebody and they reminded me, I knew about this a
Speaker 2: couple of years ago. I just completely forgot about it.
Speaker 2: There was a church in New York that right after
Speaker 2: nine to eleven, like everybody with the church that Sunday
Speaker 2: after that, that church all was averaging about seven to
Speaker 2: eight hundred people on a Sunday. That Sunday morning after
Speaker 2: nine to eleven, over three thousand people showed up. And
Speaker 2: so they made the split decision in that moment, Hey,
Speaker 2: we're going to add two services to this thing and
Speaker 2: try to figure this out. And they had never done
Speaker 2: multiple services before, so they were trying to, you know,
Speaker 2: on the learn on the fly. But it was so
Speaker 2: they could share the gospel with all those for coming
Speaker 2: who had questions about what God was doing and how
Speaker 2: he was involved in all this and how they should
Speaker 2: rightly think about it. And I wouldn't say that church
Speaker 2: was in sin for doing that. I think that's an
Speaker 2: excellent idea. If something like that happened to us, Like
Speaker 2: you know, our room can only see maybe three fifty max.
Speaker 2: If we had fifteen hundred people show up on a
Speaker 2: random Sunday, we wouldn't say sorry, we only got room
Speaker 2: for like three fifty and then we got some standing
Speaker 2: area for another fifty of you the rest make it
Speaker 2: early next week. We probably would throw a quick second
Speaker 2: service in there and try to figure it out third
Speaker 2: if we needed to. But then the next week we'd
Speaker 2: be figuring out what's the long term plan. This is
Speaker 2: not sustainable. We're not sticking at three services. What can
Speaker 2: we do?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 2: Or you know, your church building burns down and the
Speaker 2: only place you can meet is the community center down
Speaker 2: the street, but they are in town, but they can't
Speaker 2: see it as much as you used to. So you
Speaker 2: have to while the church is being rebuilt from the fire,
Speaker 2: you have to go to multiple services for eight months.
Speaker 2: I would strongly encourage a church to do that. So again,
Speaker 2: this is not multiple services are evil and are from
Speaker 2: Satan himself. This is just what based on what Scripture
Speaker 2: saying the church is supposed to do and be, which
Speaker 2: are these two examples promotes that the best and that's
Speaker 2: why I would say one service does and this. So
Speaker 2: this kind of goes a little bit to the comments.
Speaker 2: A lot of the comments were specifically addressing Sunday morning.
Speaker 2: And while I would say Sunday morning is the most
Speaker 2: important thing the church does together, it's not the only
Speaker 2: thing the church does together. And so there's a sense
Speaker 2: of like, well, if I can't get there on Sunday morning,
Speaker 2: you're hindering me from being there on Sunday morning because
Speaker 2: my job or something which I know you talked about
Speaker 2: in the last episode, which we can talk a little
Speaker 2: bit more about that. But the church itself is bigger
Speaker 2: than Sunday morning, and so again that your understanding of
Speaker 2: the church will influence how you think through your Sunday
Speaker 2: morning attendance. Now, you should not neglect gathering, and I
Speaker 2: think that is talking about Sunday morning when the church gathers.
Speaker 2: But if somebody only came on Sunday morning and never
Speaker 2: got together with other church members, never was having church
Speaker 2: members in their home, never going into other church members' homes,
Speaker 2: never doing things with other church members outside of Sunday morning,
Speaker 2: I would say that's a problem. That's not good. And
Speaker 2: so this is not just a Sunday morning service issue.
Speaker 2: This again goes back to who is the church and
Speaker 2: what is the church supposed to do? Yes, in the
Speaker 2: world large evangelize share the Gospel with anybody who will
Speaker 2: listen to you. But the church also there's more instructions
Speaker 2: about what the church are supposed to do with each
Speaker 2: other in scripture than there's what we're supposed to be
Speaker 2: outside of the church. And so it's how are you
Speaker 2: able to do those things faithfully in the church that
Speaker 2: you're in. And the reason that multiple services comes in
Speaker 2: is because multiple services tend to mean much larger churches,
Speaker 2: which again and of itself, does not mean it's sinful,
Speaker 2: but it makes some of those things really difficult that
Speaker 2: we know we're supposed to do according to scripture, and
Speaker 2: so one service kind of prevents that. Now you can say, well, well,
Speaker 2: our church meets in a stadium that can see twelve
Speaker 2: thousand people, so you're say, if we have one service,
Speaker 2: that would be good. No, that's why we also said
Speaker 2: one service doesn't mean automatically better situation, and I know
Speaker 2: of a church that does that. So that's the reason why.
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Speaker 1: selling today Shopify dot com slash granger. Okay, so a
Speaker 1: big issue we had, I think was the people saying
Speaker 1: that their jobs didn't align with the time. What are
Speaker 1: your thoughts on this? Got Yes, I did. I did
Speaker 1: bring it up in the last podcast. What are your
Speaker 1: thoughts on this?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So when I'll say this, at our church, we
Speaker 2: have one service, we push for one service. We have firemen,
Speaker 2: police officers, nurses, and then a couple other jobs that
Speaker 2: require people to be away on some Sundays. So it's
Speaker 2: not like our church is only filled with people who
Speaker 2: have nothing to do on Sunday morning except come to church.
Speaker 2: But again to what we were saying earlier of what is
Speaker 2: the church supposed to do and be for those in
Speaker 2: those situations, our interactions with them are different. So one,
Speaker 2: we've encouraged them and they've all been able to do
Speaker 2: this to my knowledge, Yeah, all of them have been
Speaker 2: able to do this. None of them miss every Sunday
Speaker 2: every month. They've been able to work it out with
Speaker 2: their job where they can at least hit one or
Speaker 2: two Sundays a month. So for some people who say,
Speaker 2: my job will never let me take a Sunday off.
Speaker 2: I really want to push against that. I don't know
Speaker 2: if that's true in most jobs, and if it is,
Speaker 2: then that's when I would encourage somebody to maybe consider
Speaker 2: a different job, not a different career, but maybe just
Speaker 2: a different job. And that doesn't mean quit today, and
Speaker 2: hopefully you'll find something that just means start thinking through it.
Speaker 2: Because when we had a guy joined who was working
Speaker 2: every Sunday, could not be there every Sunday, and we
Speaker 2: pushed on him gently and encouraged him, showed him the
Speaker 2: importance of being there on Sunday mornings. And after a
Speaker 2: couple of months of talking to his boss and kind
Speaker 2: of working things out. Now it required him to get
Speaker 2: creative and stuff like that, he came to us said, hey,
Speaker 2: I can make two Sundays a month, and we're like,
Speaker 2: praise the Lord, that's amazing, Like that's great. Occasionally there's
Speaker 2: a random month where he has to work three Sundays,
Speaker 2: but he did everything he could to make it to
Speaker 2: where he could attend sometimes. But in those situations, we
Speaker 2: know all the people who are in those situations, and
Speaker 2: so the pastors are regularly reaching out to them. How
Speaker 2: are you personally doing they'll tell us, hey, this month,
Speaker 2: you know, I can't come to the first two Sundays,
Speaker 2: but I'll be there on the second too, So just
Speaker 2: so you know, you'll see my family, you won't see me.
Speaker 2: So they're letting us know so we know how to
Speaker 2: be praying for them, how to care for their families
Speaker 2: during those times. Just this past Sunday, saw the wife
Speaker 2: and kids of one of our members who works on
Speaker 2: some Sundays and just said, hey, how's he doing? You know,
Speaker 2: how's work going. Was able to encourage them while they
Speaker 2: were here with us. So one if somebody were to
Speaker 2: say there's never a Sunday where I'm available, I would
Speaker 2: either say one, then start thinking through what it could
Speaker 2: look like months from now, after making some decisions about
Speaker 2: maybe a different job and not necessarily different career, but
Speaker 2: maybe a different job. But have you really exhausted all
Speaker 2: the opportunities to ask for at least a couple Sundays
Speaker 2: off to make it work some But that being said,
Speaker 2: all of our members who do have that situation where
Speaker 2: they work on Sunday mornings and they're limited on how
Speaker 2: often they can be on Sunday mornings, they really prioritize
Speaker 2: the other things. We encourage it. They come to our members' meetings,
Speaker 2: they're coming to Wednesday night Bible study, they're having people
Speaker 2: in their homes for meals. They're trying to go into
Speaker 2: other people's homes for meals. The guy was just talking
Speaker 2: about he goes to lunch regularly with guys during the
Speaker 2: week because his week schedule is a little more flexible
Speaker 2: than other guys, so he works around their schedule. So
Speaker 2: he's meeting with them so that the church knows how
Speaker 2: and he knows the church. So yes, he misses a
Speaker 2: couple Sundays every month, but he's still actively involved in
Speaker 2: the church. If we had to bring him up at
Speaker 2: a members meeting to say, hey, he's he's got a
Speaker 2: health situation, so please be praying for him, we wouldn't
Speaker 2: say his name, and most people go who's that. They
Speaker 2: would all go, oh, yeah, I know, his work schedule
Speaker 2: is really difficult for him to be on Sundays. But man,
Speaker 2: that guy's always involved doing stuff. He's had a lot
Speaker 2: of people over, He's got to know a lot of guys,
Speaker 2: and so there's a sense of he still feels like
Speaker 2: part of the church even though he's not there on
Speaker 2: Sunday mornings because of his intentionality with getting to know
Speaker 2: members and letting members get to know him. But then
Speaker 2: he does whatever he can to be there on Sunday mornings.
Speaker 2: So he never has a Sunday morning off of work
Speaker 2: and goes, man, today is just gonna be a nice day.
Speaker 2: He will get up and he will come to work
Speaker 2: and say this is important for me.
Speaker 1: And so what you've done, though, is you've described in
Speaker 1: environment where pastors are in the lives of the members,
Speaker 1: the members are in the lives of the members. There
Speaker 1: is direct communication with all of this, and there is
Speaker 1: there's thoughtful intention behind the person who has the job
Speaker 1: that's keeping them away a little bit.
Speaker 2: And I'm thankful for those individuals who are in specifically
Speaker 2: the medical field or law enforcement who we need them
Speaker 2: working on Sunday mornings.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Right, Like my third our third child, our son Ezekiel
Speaker 2: here no Soaiah, he was born around ten thirty in
Speaker 2: the morning on a Sunday morning. We weren't in the
Speaker 2: labor and delivery room, going what are you guys doing here?
Speaker 2: You're supposed to be at church, Like we were thankful
Speaker 2: they were there and we were there, but you know,
Speaker 2: if if that had been one of our members, you know,
Speaker 2: working in labor and delivery delivery, we would want them
Speaker 2: to be there to care for people. But at the
Speaker 2: same time as their pastors, we would be saying, have
Speaker 2: you talked to your supervisors about seeing if there's some
Speaker 2: Sundays you can get off? We recognize you can't do
Speaker 2: every Sunday and we need people in the medical field working,
Speaker 2: but can you get one Sunday off a month? And
Speaker 2: then what are you doing outside of Sunday mornings with
Speaker 2: the church to ensure that you're still connected to the church.
Speaker 2: And so what's really cool is we for the members
Speaker 2: that we do have, who are you know, we have
Speaker 2: probably like three or four cops in the church, maybe more, no,
Speaker 2: three or four, a few nurses, and then against some
Speaker 2: of those two firemen and some other people in jobs
Speaker 2: that require them to be away on some Sundays. But
Speaker 2: when those people are missing on Sundays, there's other members
Speaker 2: calling them. Hey, you know, we record our sermons, so
Speaker 2: they'll listen. All those people will listen to the sermons
Speaker 2: as soon as they can, but we'll have people reach out, hey,
Speaker 2: you know, how do the sermon encourage you? What do
Speaker 2: you think about the third point that was brought up
Speaker 2: in the sermon? It made me think about that situation
Speaker 2: talked about a couple of weeks ago. How do you
Speaker 2: think that connects to your situation? And so they're actually
Speaker 2: talking about the sermon with other members, so they're they're
Speaker 2: living life together as I think scripture would call them to,
Speaker 2: even though they can't be there every single Sunday morning.
Speaker 2: And then there's some people who would claim that their
Speaker 2: job requires them work every Sunday morning, but if you
Speaker 2: really do some digging, it doesn't. So we had we
Speaker 2: had a guy visit the church and he came in
Speaker 2: he said, Hey, I love this church, but this is
Speaker 2: like the only Sunday I'm off this year. But I
Speaker 2: really want a place for my family. And we said, oh, man,
Speaker 2: you should really be in church, Like what what's preventing you?
Speaker 2: And the way he described his job, we thought, there's
Speaker 2: no way that that job requires you to be there
Speaker 2: every Sunday. And so after meeting with them a few times,
Speaker 2: he finally said, well, they don't require me to be there,
Speaker 2: but I just get a lot of work done on
Speaker 2: Sundays because nobody else is there, so I'm able to
Speaker 2: focus really intently. I just get a lot done. And
Speaker 2: we said, well, that's that's not that's very different than
Speaker 2: than the than the cop who has to work on
Speaker 2: Sunday mornings, or the labor and deliver nurse who has
Speaker 2: to work on Sunday mornings. And so sometimes it's really
Speaker 2: digging in is does this job actually require me to
Speaker 2: be here on Sunday mornings? And then that's when you
Speaker 2: start asking questions of if that's true, does that mean
Speaker 2: every Sunday morning or is there a way I can
Speaker 2: work around it. So another example, this was from the
Speaker 2: last church I was at. The last church I was in,
Speaker 2: there was somebody who did need to work on Sunday mornings.
Speaker 2: She was a nurse, but the reason she had to
Speaker 2: work every single Sunday morning was because she was requesting
Speaker 2: Friday nights and Saturday Saturday nights off. And if she'd
Speaker 2: only taken two of those a month, she could have
Speaker 2: replaced them, replaced those Sunday mornings with those two. And
Speaker 2: so there is showing the priority. I'd rather have my
Speaker 2: Friday nights and my Saturday nights, then two Sunday mornings.
Speaker 1: Last week was the priority? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I think it's extremely rare for somebody
Speaker 2: to be in a position where their job requires them
Speaker 2: and there is appbsolutely no way they can work it
Speaker 2: out to where they could make one or two service
Speaker 2: Sunday services a month. And you know, I thought I
Speaker 2: saw a lot of comments, you know with third shifts,
Speaker 2: you know, all that kind of stuff. We have two
Speaker 2: guys in our church who do that, and they come
Speaker 2: into church exhausted on Sunday mornings, but they and then
Speaker 2: they go home and they go straight to sleep. But
Speaker 2: both of them talk about how important it is for
Speaker 2: them to be there, like but I gotta be and really,
Speaker 2: over time they said, like this is kind of a
Speaker 2: nice way to end my shift, like showing up here, yeah,
Speaker 2: and finishing with people of God and worshiping and so
Speaker 2: and again. If they said, but you're our service at
Speaker 2: ten am, they said, your service at ten am, I
Speaker 2: don't get off till nine thirty. There's no way how
Speaker 2: to make it in time. But if y'all at ten thirty,
Speaker 2: I might be able to make it. We would say, well,
Speaker 2: you being with the gathered church is so important, you
Speaker 2: don't need to come to our church like we have
Speaker 2: five other churches in town that we would happily send
Speaker 2: you to. I know these three meet at ten thirty.
Speaker 2: We would encourage you to go there. And so this
Speaker 2: goes to the question about growth earlier too, is we
Speaker 2: have no problem encouraging people to go to churches closer
Speaker 2: to where they live. So every Sunday we'll meet somebody
Speaker 2: because I stand at the doors, try to greet as
Speaker 2: many people as I can as they're leaving or before service,
Speaker 2: as they come in. And every time it's a first
Speaker 2: time visitor, I'll say, I'll ask how do you hear
Speaker 2: about us? And then two I'll ask, well, where do
Speaker 2: you live? And if somebody says, oh, I live in
Speaker 2: Cedar Park, I'll say, oh, have you tried out this church?
Speaker 2: And this church and this church all use three churches
Speaker 2: that I know are either in Cedar Park or between
Speaker 2: them and us that are much closer, faithfully preaching the gospel,
Speaker 2: like minded. And if they say no, I'll say, look,
Speaker 2: we're not saying you can't come here, but it would
Speaker 2: be really beneficial for you if you go to this church,
Speaker 2: because it sounds like this church is five minutes from
Speaker 2: where you live, and we're thirty five minutes from where
Speaker 2: you live. So if you decide to come here, we're
Speaker 2: not going to tell you no, but I think you
Speaker 2: should at least go check out a service over here.
Speaker 2: So that's not me saying, hey, I don't want this
Speaker 2: church to grow. That's me saying, what's going to be
Speaker 2: most beneficial for your soul to be at a church
Speaker 2: that's close to you. Now, if they're coming from somewhere
Speaker 2: where I can't think of any solid church between them
Speaker 2: and us, I'll be like, look, come here and maybe
Speaker 2: one day we can plan a church closer to you.
Speaker 1: That Brandon said, a church that's alive is worse to drive.
Speaker 2: That's right, That's exactly right. It's a Britain thing to say.
Speaker 1: So you're not advocating for people to go, well, hey,
Speaker 1: that church has a five o'clock message, so I'm just
Speaker 1: going to go to that. But you're saying healthy churches.
Speaker 1: Of the healthy churches, let's choose one that's closer to
Speaker 1: your house and has a better time, because I think
Speaker 1: that's the people's biggest argument was, man, I would rather
Speaker 1: go to this church, the mega church down the road,
Speaker 1: because they have four services, and of the four, I
Speaker 1: could always find one that fits my schedule. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: was smiling earlier because thinking about the Jewish religion, when
Speaker 1: they have their Sabbath, they give everything up, they stop everything,
Speaker 1: but they still expect to be served on by the
Speaker 1: people that aren't in their faith. And so it's interesting
Speaker 1: the contrast between you at the hospital with Hoseiah and
Speaker 1: if that was a Jewish baby, it would be born,
Speaker 1: and they would they wouldn't think twice about the people
Speaker 1: working the third shift or the medical field. But in
Speaker 1: our faith, it's it's always about the heart. Jesus was
Speaker 1: always about the heart of the people. Where is your heart,
Speaker 1: What's what's the process, the transformational process, not the outcome.
Speaker 1: And the Jewish religion is always about the outcome. It's
Speaker 1: you have to you have to block off the Sabbath,
Speaker 1: and then we're still hope that our power grid stays on,
Speaker 1: that non Jewish people are working, and we hope that,
Speaker 1: you know, the the food is still being cooked by
Speaker 1: non Jewish people, and we hope that the hospitals are
Speaker 1: opened by non Jewish people. It's very interesting. I remember
Speaker 1: one time, that's not just Jewish people too, No, it's not,
Speaker 1: it's not. That was just fresh on my mind.
Speaker 2: Yeahs, I've seen that.
Speaker 1: But I remember one time I was in a city
Speaker 1: early on a Sunday downstairs in the hotel. I was
Speaker 1: going to preach that morning, and I was doing the
Speaker 1: final prep looking at my manuscript. It was like six
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning at the lobby of a hotel
Speaker 1: and no one was down there, And I remember that
Speaker 1: I heard a ding and the elevator opened and all
Speaker 1: these kids come out with their softball or baseball uniforms,
Speaker 1: and all the parents like, Hey, grab a sausage biscuit
Speaker 1: and orne juice, and let's get out there. We got
Speaker 1: to hurry. And I do have a problem with that.
Speaker 2: I do.
Speaker 1: Uh. You know, when we talk about people who work
Speaker 1: in the third shift and having jobs and needing to
Speaker 1: talk with their boss, there's so much nuance to that,
Speaker 1: and it's about the heart. But but just I have
Speaker 1: so much If you're going to actually miss church completely
Speaker 1: because it's a baseball game for a ten year old,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I just have a problem with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do too.
Speaker 1: Is there a question? We haven't even got to sing
Speaker 1: a single one yet, But you know, the first one
Speaker 1: I'm looking at is I respectfully disagree with y'all on
Speaker 1: the multiple service thing. We don't know. We don't have
Speaker 1: to to know all two thousand people that attend the
Speaker 1: same church, is the argument. This is from Kimbers at
Speaker 1: Kimber's twelve thirty eight. To me, it's important to have
Speaker 1: small groups where you get to know each other, build
Speaker 1: each other up, and call out sin where needed. I
Speaker 1: find your point nitpicking when we are looking for a church.
Speaker 1: This is a minor issue. This is this is this
Speaker 1: is a great comment because it's so common. That is
Speaker 1: a very common. In fact, a lot of people listening
Speaker 1: right now probably go, yeah, that's what I was saying. These
Speaker 1: guys are just nitpicking. These guys are overthinking it. I
Speaker 1: get called out for that all the time. You're just
Speaker 1: overthinking things, man. So what do you say to that?
Speaker 1: What do you say to we don't have to know
Speaker 1: all two thousand people that attend the same church. That's
Speaker 1: why it's important to have small groups to know each other,
Speaker 1: build each other, build each other up, and call each
Speaker 1: other out. We're needed. And there's three comments that agree
Speaker 1: with them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So to that, I would say, you don't need
Speaker 2: to know all two thousand members equally. But you do
Speaker 2: need to know all two thousand members. If you're going
Speaker 2: to have two thousand, you need to know because again,
Speaker 2: so this is where you know, our church has two thousands.
Speaker 2: So we lean on small groups to get to know
Speaker 2: each other. Okay, I'm not anti small groups. I mean
Speaker 2: we don't have them in our churches, but you know,
Speaker 2: I'm not anti them. I think churches are fine to
Speaker 2: have them, but usually they're put in place to kind
Speaker 2: of force community. And the concern that I have with
Speaker 2: small groups when it's to force community. So this is
Speaker 2: how you can know that you're connected to the church
Speaker 2: because you know these people that are in your small group.
Speaker 2: That's a that's a program of the church that is
Speaker 2: meant to build community. And to me, that's ironic because
Speaker 2: the Bible has already given you something to have community,
Speaker 2: and that's the church. So that's saying the picture that
Speaker 2: the Scripture's given us of the church wasn't enough. So
Speaker 2: now I need this one ministry to make me feel connected.
Speaker 2: And that's so that might sound nitpicky because some people
Speaker 2: will say, well, now you're saying I can't you know,
Speaker 2: be friends with a smaller group of people in my church.
Speaker 2: That's not true. I'm closer to some members than I
Speaker 2: am to others. But I know all of our members.
Speaker 2: I know where all of our and this is as
Speaker 2: a pastor, I know we're all If our members are
Speaker 2: open with us and and being honest with us, then
Speaker 2: I know where all of our members struggle and how
Speaker 2: I can help pastor and shepherd them well. And we
Speaker 2: have we have four pastors right now for you know,
Speaker 2: I'm a staff pastor. We have three non staff pastors,
Speaker 2: but they each know member all the members as well.
Speaker 2: But that means Steven will know some members better than
Speaker 2: I do. So this is where multiple pastors is helpful. Right,
Speaker 2: I'll know them, I might know some things are going through,
Speaker 2: I'll know their life situation. I'll know how to pray
Speaker 2: for them and care for them as one of their pastors.
Speaker 2: But Steven might have a better relationship with them, and
Speaker 2: he might be able to say, so, here's some updates
Speaker 2: on what's going on, here's this, and so that that
Speaker 2: allows us to care for them well. And so when
Speaker 2: you when somebody says, well, you know, there's no way
Speaker 2: to really know two thousands, so and we there's no
Speaker 2: way to know two thousands. So therefore we don't have
Speaker 2: to know two thousand. I just don't see that in scripture.
Speaker 2: Like I see when Paul and First Corinthians is talking
Speaker 2: about disciplining somebody out of the church. He doesn't say, Hey,
Speaker 2: those of you in the church who know this guy,
Speaker 2: can you let the other people know why he shouldn't
Speaker 2: be a part of the church. He talks to the
Speaker 2: whole church and says, this isn't like y'all are all
Speaker 2: putting up with this and you shouldn't be. You need
Speaker 2: to remove him from your mist because he's not acting
Speaker 2: like a Christian. He's doing things even non Christians would
Speaker 2: be ashamed of and look down on, and you're just
Speaker 2: letting him be here. So there's a sense of this
Speaker 2: church knew who this guy was. And then you know,
Speaker 2: and picking elders, the church knows who its leadership is.
Speaker 2: And so with that, you said, you have four elders,
Speaker 2: four pastors.
Speaker 1: What is the primary function of the pastor?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So in our MEMBERSIP class, we talk about the
Speaker 2: pastor has the three main rules are ministry of the word, prayer,
Speaker 2: and soul care. So pastors, oversee, the teaching doesn't mean
Speaker 2: the pastors are the only ones doing the teaching. So
Speaker 2: we have guys, I mean, you've preached before, you've taught
Speaker 2: a devotional for us. We have other guys in the
Speaker 2: church who have taught devotionals and preached for us. So
Speaker 2: we're not the only ones doing the teaching. But we
Speaker 2: oversee it, so we know who's going to be teaching.
Speaker 2: When we've approved them as a teacher, we know what
Speaker 2: they're going to be teaching because we feel like we're
Speaker 2: held responsible for what's going to get taught. Now, ultimately,
Speaker 2: the church itself is responsible. Paul mentions this in Galatians
Speaker 2: one when he rebukes false teaching coming to the church,
Speaker 2: which again I think argues the whole church needs to
Speaker 2: be involved in this. Paul rebukes the entire church for
Speaker 2: letting false teaching come in and persist. Now, the elders,
Speaker 2: the pastors are the front lines of it. But elders
Speaker 2: pastors are fallible men who make mistakes and can be
Speaker 2: deceived themselves, and so false teaching could get past them.
Speaker 2: And that's why Paul says to the church, this is
Speaker 2: on you. And then even the letters that John that
Speaker 2: are given to the seven churches in the book Revelation,
Speaker 2: they're addressed to the church, so all the people in
Speaker 2: the church, and so they're all being held accountable for
Speaker 2: what's happening in the church. And so so ministry the
Speaker 2: word so overseeing, and that means they're doing the bulk
Speaker 2: of the preaching a prayer, So elders should be praying immensely.
Speaker 2: If if a pastor never prays, that is a huge
Speaker 2: red flag for a church. And then third soul care,
Speaker 2: so specifically pulling from Hebrews thirteen, you know where pastors
Speaker 2: will have to give an account to the Lord for
Speaker 2: the souls of which they're shepherding. Acts twenty. I think
Speaker 2: I mentioned both these passages last time on the podcast.
Speaker 2: But Acts twenty shepherd the flock among you, So there's
Speaker 2: a sense of their they're watching over their souls and
Speaker 2: caring for them spiritually. And so there's a sense whereas
Speaker 2: the elders, we need to know all the members.
Speaker 1: You think that's a biblical command?
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I do. I do. So I would say
Speaker 2: if a guy shows up to a church. I was
Speaker 2: just talking to this with another guy the other day.
Speaker 2: If a guy shows up to a church, preaches on
Speaker 2: Sunday mornings and then leaves and doesn't have relationships in
Speaker 2: the church. People speak in his life. Members can never
Speaker 2: get a hold of him. If you or I were
Speaker 2: to walk up to him and say, hey, how's your
Speaker 2: membership doing, and he only speaks about how big the
Speaker 2: church is, or how giving's going, or hey there's no
Speaker 2: big fights going on, things must be going well. I
Speaker 2: got a big problem with that. I got a real
Speaker 2: big problem with that because there's some guys who love
Speaker 2: to preach but hate to pastor, and that is not
Speaker 2: a thing in scripture. Somebody who can just preach and
Speaker 2: not love the people. So, because the best preaching is
Speaker 2: the preaching that flows from the pastoral care that's been
Speaker 2: done throughout the week. So when I'm prepping a sermon,
Speaker 2: I'm not just like, what does this passage say? That's
Speaker 2: where I start. But then I think, what is this
Speaker 2: passage saying, and how's what it's saying going to benefit
Speaker 2: the people I'm supposed to be shepherding. So we record
Speaker 2: our sermons. I don't preach a sermon assuming people are
Speaker 2: going to listen to it later. So there might be
Speaker 2: things I say in the sermon that are specifically for
Speaker 2: our congregation. I have to know our congregation in order
Speaker 2: to be able to say those things. And there's certain
Speaker 2: things I won't say because our congregation is not struggling
Speaker 2: with that. They're not going through that.
Speaker 1: Well, let me say this. So four pastors, and you
Speaker 1: name the three roles of them, But you didn't say
Speaker 1: that you have a communications pastor, a media pastor, youth pastor,
Speaker 1: women's pastor, music pastor. You don't even have associate pastors.
Speaker 1: Not that that not not that I want you to
Speaker 1: help me or help us with. When someone says, well,
Speaker 1: we have twelve pastors at our church. Sometimes a lot
Speaker 1: of times there's there's a there's a misdefinition of what
Speaker 1: pastor means, what the Bible says that a pastor is. Instead,
Speaker 1: it becomes a title that's put on any kind of
Speaker 1: leadership in the church. Multimedia pastor, uh, sports pastor, I
Speaker 1: saw that before.
Speaker 2: What is sports pastor?
Speaker 1: Well, we have a lot of athletes in our congregation.
Speaker 1: It's like the singles pastor seen that you kind of
Speaker 1: divide up groups or technologies or systems within the church itself,
Speaker 1: and you you put a leader in charge of the
Speaker 1: system or the group and then you call them a pastor.
Speaker 2: No, you don't have that, No, because that's not what
Speaker 2: a pastor does. Now we could again again, based on
Speaker 2: guys personalities or skill sets, it might be more prudent
Speaker 2: to let them take the lead on a specific thing.
Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean that's all his responses, that's that's
Speaker 2: only his responsibility, or that's his only responsibility.
Speaker 1: You don't need to have missions pastor. Right, it's another system,
Speaker 1: right church, put a pastor in charge.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think all pastors should be doing counseling
Speaker 2: when members have issues they need to work through. It
Speaker 2: should not be a shock to have a pastor sit
Speaker 2: down with you and help you think what descriptures say
Speaker 2: about the situation I'm going through. That doesn't mean they have
Speaker 2: to have a counseling degree or that hey, you only
Speaker 2: counsel with me and nobody else. But there should be
Speaker 2: the sense where a member can go to a pastor
Speaker 2: and say, here's what I'm wrestling with, here's what I'm
Speaker 2: struggling with. I don't know what the Bible says about it,
Speaker 2: and a pastor. Pastor could at least give a foundational
Speaker 2: understanding of how scripture might speak to the situation they're
Speaker 2: going through. And then because of the trust built between
Speaker 2: the member and the pastor. And I'm saying pastor, I'm
Speaker 2: not necessarily saying the one lead guy. So when I'm
Speaker 2: saying pastor, I'm saying it could be any four of
Speaker 2: our guys.
Speaker 1: We people think of it that way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so as I want to push it a
Speaker 2: little bit against that, but because of the trust built
Speaker 2: up there, it could also be. Hey, I think what
Speaker 2: you're going here's what I think the Bible is saying
Speaker 2: about your situational least at a foundational level. But also,
Speaker 2: I know we have this other member who's gone through
Speaker 2: the exact same thing. I think you should meet with
Speaker 2: them for a few weeks and y'all can talk through
Speaker 2: this issue. I'm happy to I'm happy to reach out
Speaker 2: to them and give you give them a heads up
Speaker 2: about why you're reaching out, or Hey, what you're going
Speaker 2: through is like, I can give you a foundational understanding
Speaker 2: what Scripture says, but this is a really big issue.
Speaker 2: I know somebody outside of the church who will give
Speaker 2: you a biblical perspective on this, who's dealt with this
Speaker 2: a lot more than I have. I'm not passing you
Speaker 2: off to them, so that I cleared up my calendar.
Speaker 2: I'd actually like to walk alongside you as you talk
Speaker 2: with them through this, just because they have a little
Speaker 2: more experience in this specific issue than I do. But
Speaker 2: I can at least tell you what scripture says at
Speaker 2: a foundational level about what you're going through, and I
Speaker 2: can point you to Jesus in it. If that's not
Speaker 2: happening in churches, that's a problem. And again, that doesn't
Speaker 2: have to be me as the lead guy, if you know, Brad,
Speaker 2: one of our elders said, yeah, somebody one of our
Speaker 2: members reached out to us asked about this. I was
Speaker 2: giving them some counsel, and I'm thinking about connecting them
Speaker 2: with them. Amen, I would not be like, why didn't
Speaker 2: they come talk to me? Or oh, I'm so glad
Speaker 2: they went to you. I didn't have time for that
Speaker 2: this week. We tell our members all the time we
Speaker 2: will make time for our members because you are our
Speaker 2: primary responsibility, and so you need to know that you
Speaker 2: can reach out to us.
Speaker 1: It seems so logical.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, well, again, it's what does the Bible
Speaker 2: say a pastor is, and what does the Bible say
Speaker 2: pastor does? Well does these things? And again, those like
Speaker 2: you know a communications pastor multimedia pastor, or sports pastor
Speaker 2: whatever it is. Again, those tend to be birthed out
Speaker 2: of circumstances. Well, we have a lot of people, so
Speaker 2: how do we make sure that they're cared for?
Speaker 1: Right? Right?
Speaker 2: So this is so some of the comments we're asking
Speaker 2: about church planting, and one of the comments even said, well,
Speaker 2: how's that different than just starting another service? Is very
Speaker 2: different than to starting another service, because planting a church
Speaker 2: is saying you all are responsible for y'all, not us.
Speaker 1: It's a misunderstanding of planning a camp another campus.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, so I'm not talking about planning another campus too,
Speaker 2: different talking about planting an autonomous church with its own
Speaker 2: pastors who shepherd those people, and those people are responsible
Speaker 2: for them and they're now sharing the gospel and a community.
Speaker 2: Another misconception with church planting is that it assumes it
Speaker 2: has to be further away, so like, we can only
Speaker 2: plan a church if it's thirty plus minutes away from us.
Speaker 2: I think churches, many churches, should be more open to
Speaker 2: planning a church ten minutes from them if they're getting
Speaker 2: too big and they can't care for the members. Because again,
Speaker 2: if it's about building the Kingdom of God or highlighting
Speaker 2: the Kingdom of God. Then it doesn't matter if we
Speaker 2: have a thousand. Yeah, you know, it's just are we
Speaker 2: being faithful with the with those who have who've been
Speaker 2: entrusted to us by the Lord. And so we have
Speaker 2: to constantly ask ourselves as pastors, are we being faithful
Speaker 2: to the souls that the Lord has put under our care?
Speaker 2: Or are we sacrificing that for something else, whether it's
Speaker 2: building our name bigger, whether it's we want to be
Speaker 2: the biggest church in town.
Speaker 1: Well, I want to say, Kimbers one, two, three, eight,
Speaker 1: I love you. I'm so glad you you reached out
Speaker 1: and we only got to one.
Speaker 2: I mean some of them I think were answered in
Speaker 2: some of Okay.
Speaker 1: So if there needs to be a part three comment
Speaker 1: on this video with a new question or pushback, whatever
Speaker 1: you need to do, let me know. And all of
Speaker 1: this has done out of love and us just genuinely
Speaker 1: thinking through these things. These are ideas we should think through,
Speaker 1: and we should use the Bible as the foundation of
Speaker 1: how we think we could be deceived by our own
Speaker 1: emotions or experiences or thoughts. The way we interact with
Speaker 1: culture could all deceive us, so let's use the Bible
Speaker 1: as the foundation of our thinking. I've run out of
Speaker 1: time and so appreciate you. Appreciate you. Man. I'm laughing
Speaker 1: because we didn't have anything to talk about and we
Speaker 1: ended up talking for an hour. So if there needs
Speaker 1: to be a part three, let me know. But we'll
Speaker 1: continue regardless. We'll continue the discussion about what it looks
Speaker 1: like to have a good church. And that sounds bad.
Speaker 1: That sounds like we're claiming Amaas is the good church.
Speaker 2: We got a problems, we.
Speaker 1: Have our problems. We're just thinking through this with you
Speaker 1: out loud and using the Bible as the foundation. See
Speaker 1: you guys next Monday. Meg, thanks for joining me on
Speaker 1: the Grangersmith podcast. I appreciate all of you guys. You
Speaker 1: could help me out rating this podcast on iTunes. If
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Speaker 1: anytime I upload a video. Yi