WEBVTT - How To Find A Good Church - Part 2 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:13.200 Okay, interesting show today something we're gonna do something a 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.040 little bit different. Got Marshall with me, and we are 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:18.560 gonna but typically we just answer the questions that you 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:22.079 send podcast at grangersmith dot com, but we're not gonna 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:24.239 do that today. We're gonna answer your questions from the 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:26.799 YouTube page, which is what Marshall and I asked you 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:32.400 to do when we discussed something and maybe the first 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:36.199 of many discussions about what is a good church, what 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:40.159 to look for at a good church, different aspects according 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:42.159 to the Bible of what a good church would be. 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:46.479 And then I said, because this is such a deep topic, 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:50.200 I said, go to the YouTube page, my YouTube page 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:54.000 and find the video the podcast episode where it's actually 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:56.560 called how Do I Find a Good Church? It's Marshall 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.760 I talking just ten days ago from when we were 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:04.080 record this right now, and comment on that, and then 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:06.959 we can go through those comments and double down. So 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:08.759 this is going to be just fair game for any 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:11.360 of the podcasts I do from now on. You could 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:13.119 go on the YouTube page and I'll try to keep 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:15.399 an eye on that and make sure that we're kind 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:17.280 of getting a pulse of what you're saying on there. 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:22.839 So we're going to do that today. And the main 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:26.760 topic we were discussing at that time, correct me if 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:30.520 I'm wrong, but it was like multiple services, what's kind 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:32.520 of part of it? And we'll make that argument again 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:35.520 and where we think that it would be okay to 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.880 have a multiple service church for sure, and define what 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.800 we mean by multiple services. There's different, very different ways 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:45.319 to do it. So we'll go down that path. But 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:46.600 I want to say I want to kind of start 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:52.200 with a clip that I took from that episode that 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:55.120 we recorded. I took a clip. Paul got a clip 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.160 for me. Is the guy that produces this and or 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:02.560 edits this, and and I, to be fair, I don't 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:06.400 ever really post things on Instagram or TikTok or whatever 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:10.919 if it's just very boring and no one's going to 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:16.200 really comment on it. So admittedly I will post things 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:19.720 to make you think, like, wait, what did he just say? 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:23.200 Because I say a lot of times I say on 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:27.240 here that one of my purposes of this podcast is 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:30.840 just so we all think together, let's consider things together. 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:35.640 Let's because for so long, part of my testimony is 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:40.280 as I look back, it's fascinating that I look back 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:43.160 and I think I wasn't thinking through that. I wasn't 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:46.600 taking anything that I read in the Bible or anything 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:50.440 I knew about Christianity to its fullest extent. I wasn't 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:54.120 running it out and chasing rabbit holes and thinking where 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:57.639 if I think this, what does that actually mean? Or 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:00.959 if Jesus said that, what would the be the implications 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:04.720 of my life if he said that? So a lot 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:06.840 of you know, just like a general rule of this 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:09.280 podcast is I just want people to be let's think 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:12.120 about it. I know you believe that, but let's think 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:14.040 about what it means to believe that. And so the 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:17.240 statement I made was this, I'll just put it here 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:24.519 on the microphone so we get all here as grow would. 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:29.240 The goal of the church is not growth. And a 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:30.880 lot of times and a lot of people I talked to, 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:33.280 I asked them, what's your goal here? And they say 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.720 to grow? And is that is not the goal of 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:41.160 the church. It's not what the Bible says. Go therefore 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:44.640 and grow churches. Grow, grow one church and make it 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:49.560 really big and make multiple campuses and pipe in all 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:53.800 the messages on video. That got a lot of hate. 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:57.640 I mean people I had to hide a few because 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:04.440 of like language and just direct assaults on me. I 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:06.520 think I do have a little bit of an issue 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:08.400 because sometimes when I just pull a clip off this, 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:11.440 I think I might sound a little judgmental because of 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:14.520 the clip, and people were like, man, who are you? 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:17.839 I'm so sick of you judging me and my church. 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:22.520 I'm like, why, y'ah, I promise I'm so far from that. 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:28.080 I just want to think through things. And here's my caption. 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:31.800 What should be the main goal of a church? Comment below, 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.880 Let's think about it together. There are parentheses, there are 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:38.720 many subsidiary goals. Growth is definitely welcomed as a byproduct, 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:42.800 but not a slam dunk indicator of faithfulness. Bad churches 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:48.240 can grow with good marketing. And only a few people 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:50.160 were like, oh, I see what you mean by this. 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:53.400 Most people are like wrong or wrong no matter how 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:56.960 you look at it. Growth is the goal. By the way, 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:01.279 I'm kind of like throwing Marshall in on this. He's 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:04.880 my pastor. But by no means am I saying like, 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:07.560 we didn't talk about this today Marshall and I. He 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:09.200 didn't know what I was going to go this direction, 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:12.480 so I'm kind of just dragging him into this. But 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:16.000 we're really close friends. You're my pastor, but we're also 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:18.400 really close friends, and so we know each other well. 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:23.760 I kind of when I I might have made a 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:26.479 mistake in that by saying go there for. And the 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:29.239 Bible doesn't say go there for and make big churches 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:33.960 insinuating Matthew twenty eight. So everyone thought my answer was 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:37.080 go make disciples. The church's goal is to make disciples. 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:41.200 I don't think that's the church's goal either. And I 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:46.600 need to explain this because my point is, what is 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:51.160 the main the pinnacle, the main focus point, what is 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:54.720 the why behind church? And I think about it in 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:57.960 terms of when I was playing music or anything I've done. 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.160 I want to think about what's the why? Why? Why 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:05.520 are we doing this? And of course growing a church 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:09.400 is a goal. Of course, making disciples is a goal. 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:12.960 When you planted a mais when you were sent out. 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.320 If they if they would have said, Marshall, what's the 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:19.840 main your main focus? The main goal of a mais 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:24.680 you have not you would not have said numerical growth. No, no, 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:33.880 And so one person, Charlene with a s H. I 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:35.800 think there were a few, but one person said, the 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:40.800 main goal of a church is to glorify God. And 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:45.200 I was like, amen. See the idea that I wanted 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:47.839 I want people to think about is if your main 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:52.320 goal is to glorify God, then then one of your 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:57.120 main purposes to do that is to be faithful in it, 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:02.920 to be faithful, and and a good byproduct is that 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:07.720 God will grow the church through faithfulness and that will 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:15.320 glorify Him. So it's man centered. It's horizontal centered ideas 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:21.440 versus vertical centered ideas. I had this, had this epiphany 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.440 on last Saturday as I was kind of thinking through 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:26.120 this and I was looking at a lot of people. 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:28.600 A lot of people are really upset with me with 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:31.120 saying that the goal is not to grow because they're 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:33.800 just like, you're such an idiot. You know, why would 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:35.880 you not want to grow a church? Anything that's good 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.080 grows in this world? You know. I understand all that. 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:41.800 I'm not from planet Mars here. But I had this 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:47.160 epiphany when I was watching college game Day and Nick Saban, 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:51.240 former head coach of Alabama, was talking and he said 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:54.800 he said, was they were talking about Florida State and 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:58.640 how bad they're doing, and they were like, what happens 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.640 to a school A team like to state, how does 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:06.360 the coach lose the team? And he said, well, I 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:09.680 remember in my old days when I was a transactional 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:13.960 coach and my goal was winning and everything revolved around 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:19.280 winning and losing, and I started to lose my team 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:24.160 because of that until I learned to be a transformational coach. 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:26.880 He said. This happened in nineteen ninety eight for him. 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:30.560 He became a transformational coach and instead of winning and 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:33.520 losing as the goal, the goal, instead of outcomes is 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:39.000 the goal. Instead, it was the process. It was transforming men, 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:44.560 modeling someone that they would want to emulate and be 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:47.440 like so that they could succeed not just in the 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:51.720 game or the season, but in life as young men, 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:56.280 and they could grow as young men and be someone 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:59.599 that was equipped for all the suffering and afflictions that 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:04.400 if brought. And when he did that and focused one 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:08.480 play at a time on the process based on virtue 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:12.640 and character that he set forth as the coach, they 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:17.720 started winning, and they started winning a lot. And I thought, man, 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:20.240 that is such such a good example of the church. 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:22.960 Because if the pastor goes in and says I want 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:26.120 to I want to grow the church numerically, then he 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:30.040 will if that is the top pinnacle goal, he will 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:36.920 sacrifice faithfulness for marketing, for topical sermons that attract people, 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:41.040 for a new building. Someone really close to me right 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:46.360 now is in a church that is in debt. They're 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:50.600 losing members, and they have this advisory board that's coming 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:54.160 in saying, in order to stop the leak, we need 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:58.560 to build a new sanctuary that attracts more people, that 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:02.080 attracts younger people, because sanctuary kind of looks old, and 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.760 then that'll put us in more debt, but that that'll grow. 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:07.640 That's an example of a church with the main priority 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:14.560 is grow. Anyway, I'm kind of rambling now, but this 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:18.160 is my point. I'm looking at through all these comments 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.480 and as many people as we're really upset with me, 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:25.840 I want them to know that. Of course, I think 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:28.480 growth is a great thing for a church. I hope 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:29.400 a Maya's grows. 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:31.920 I mean, we talked about it when we started the 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:34.960 church with all of our members, of you know, we 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.480 would love for the Lord to add to our numbers, 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:40.080 but that's not the primary goal. But we also were 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:42.920 very clear with all of our members. If we're going 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:46.440 to celebrate the Lord growing the church, we need to 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:48.679 be just as excited at the church down the streets 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:51.480 growing and we're not, because that's still Kingdom growth. And 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:54.199 if that's really what we want, then we're going to 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:57.079 celebrate that. Even if we stay at whatever number we're at, 0:10:57.200 --> 0:10:58.960 or you know, we only grow by a couple people 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:01.600 and they're grown by one hundreds, it's we're gonna We're 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:03.800 gonna celebrate what the Lord's doing there because that's the 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:08.720 growth we want. So it's not anti growth, it's it's 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:15.200 it's it's pro positive growth spiritually, which then leads to 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:19.679 numerical growth. But also if people are growing spiritually, it 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:22.720 makes some of the things that we're arguing for easier 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:26.880 and kind of goes against some of the comments against 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:28.400 why it's harder to do some of the things we 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:29.079 were pushing for. 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:33.240 Yeah, no, absolutely. I think a lot of this for 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.199 me too, comes as I travel and I hear people 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:39.680 tell me that their goal is numerical growth. And I've 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:43.439 also had I've heard the argument several times that I mean, look, 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:46.360 look how big this church is. You can't deny the 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:50.120 Lord has his hand on this. And I always think, well, yeah, 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:52.080 you can deny it because the Lord doesn't have his 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.400 hand on Taylor Swift concerts, but those are growing numerically 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:57.600 just really good marketing. I think you said that this 0:11:57.679 --> 0:11:58.600 is really good marketing. 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:01.280 So I don't remember how the stuff I said. 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.080 Yeah, I don't know either. Anyway, I think that's what 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:08.360 this where this conversation begins. And once again, this is 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:13.480 just this is not calling out anyone specific at all. Uh, 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:15.959 this is just to think through things. If a pastor 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:20.840 was called to shepherd a flock of older people in 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:24.080 a small church in a small town and he was 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:28.480 just kind of ushering them into glory, and I don't 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:32.280 think and he was faithful in his preaching, he was 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:36.200 faithful in his in his philosophy of church. I don't 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:39.480 think anyone look and go failing. That guy's failing because 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:43.480 he's not numerically growing. And I think about those guys 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:45.040 a lot. And there's a lot of those guys out there, 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:47.440 some of them listening to this podcast that are just 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:52.000 in very small churches that numerically on paper that they 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:55.200 don't they don't stand up, they don't, they wouldn't look 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:57.439 like you would want to replicate that idea. But these 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:03.079 are faithful men. So yeah, so that's the kind of 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:06.959 the beginning, and I think we should get we should 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:12.000 specifically get into some of these comments on the last 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:18.120 video talking about multiple services. And here's the idea behind that. 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:27.200 Marshall and I talked about how replicating identical services on 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:31.559 a Sunday I guess on Saturday night too, Sunday night 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:36.240 as well, starts to split the family up. Starts to 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.160 split the body up so much so that you have 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:44.280 people attending church that don't know a fellow brother or 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:47.959 sister that's in the same body that attends the nine 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:50.560 am service and you attend eleven and you've never even 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:54.800 known them. And so, in a nutshell, that's one of 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:58.840 the problems of splitting up these services. Another problem is 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:08.800 the Bible, UH is encouraging us to to grow multiple churches, 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:13.600 not multiple services. So in the idea of a mais 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:19.480 the church we attend, it was it was an extension. 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:23.720 It was we were sent out from another church that 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:27.080 was growing. And instead of that one church being all 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:31.520 about itself, UH, it's sit down and replicated another church, 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:37.160 not another campus, not an identical name, not piping in 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:40.800 the message through a video monitor, but it's a completely 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:44.960 autonomous church. A mais sent out from another one that 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:49.000 was growing. Do you want to start anywhere particular with 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:51.120 these comments, because there's some good ones on here and 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:52.440 there's some good things to think about. 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:56.640 Yeah. I mean, I'll say this up front. It doesn't 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.520 nothing to do with the comments. But we said this 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.240 last time, but I think some people maybe didn't catch it. 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:08.520 This is not a core issue for us. So if somebody, 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:10.760 if somebody were to, you know, call me and say, hey, 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:13.960 look in the church in the town I'm in. There's 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:16.400 this church that preaches the gospel faithfully every week, but 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:18.800 they got three services. And I know you you're all 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:22.200 about one service. And the only two churches in town 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:25.160 that I can find that are close to me that 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:28.800 have one service. You know, I think they preach the 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:31.240 gospel most of the time, but maybe not all the time. 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.160 And you know the pastor, you know, last Sunday, he 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.200 really didn't even open his Bible. I was really encouraged 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:39.960 by the message, but he didn't even what it was Bible. 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.040 I would say, go to the three service church immediately. 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:48.640 So this is not like a don't ever touch a 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.160 church that has multiple services for me. This is a 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:53.800 this is a find a church that preaches the gospel 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:55.880 and will hold you accountable to your profession of faith. 0:15:56.600 --> 0:16:01.480 But the argument is is if the church is doing that, well, 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:06.480 there's a way they can do it without having multiple services. 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.920 And so I'm kind of taking or we're taking the 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:14.040 step after that. Yes, if if somebody's going to say 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:16.840 the only church in town that preaches a gospel has 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:18.880 four services, I'm going to always tell you to go 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.920 to that church. You need to be hearing the gospel, 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:26.680 not somebody's opinions on stuff. And so this is not well, 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:29.320 just because it's got one service it's a better church. 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:33.320 That's not always true. And with that being said, we're 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:36.000 also not saying, or at least I'm not saying smaller 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:42.040 means better right at always in theory that's true, But 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:47.040 smaller does not always mean better. Smaller does not always 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:51.040 mean less problems. I got a friend who is a 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:52.960 member of a church and they're going through some really 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:57.760 rough stuff right now and they only have about fifty members. 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.920 And so it's not smaller means better church. It's it's 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.040 it's it's the same issue actually in both sizes, is 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:09.800 what's the spirituality happening there? What's the what's the uh, 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.080 the discipleship look like, what's the faithfulness to Jesus look like? 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:17.280 In all the members? And so this this discussion around 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:22.879 multiple services or one service really isn't specifically answering just 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:25.919 that question, because it's there's probably four or five layers 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.879 underneath that question that have to be answered first, right, 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:31.440 because you won't go to the scriptures and find something says, look, 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:33.920 you're only supposed to have one service that versus not there. 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:37.240 And so what you have to do whenever you come 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:38.679 to a situation like that where you're trying to think 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:41.040 of what's the Bible say about this issue? Because it 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.679 doesn't say a specific verse or passage on this issue, 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:45.760 you have to go, Okay, what's what are the underlying 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:48.399 things under there? So for this issue, it's well, what 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:50.440 does the Bible say the church is? What does the 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:52.520 Bible say the church does? What does the Bible say 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:54.719 I'm supposed to do as a what does what does 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.639 the Bible expect of me as somebody who is a 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:01.680 member of a church? And when you answer those questions, 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:06.359 the understanding of one service seems to make the most 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.440 sense based on those things. So one of the things 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:11.040 I noticed in all the comments that we got on 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:13.720 that video, which I actually enjoyed reading those comments, even 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:15.399 the ones that disagreed with us, because it made me 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:17.880 think about my own position. Right, So the best way 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:21.480 you can articulate your position is when you understand why 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:23.400 people disagree with it, because it forces you to think 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:26.320 through it. And so even in reading the comments a 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:28.160 couple of days ago, I was having to think through, Okay, 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:30.439 well how would I think through that? Or what is 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:34.480 my answer to that? But in reading all the comments, 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.000 not one of them said well, here's what the Bible 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:40.200 says about this, and why I think multiple services are Okay, 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.480 it was all experiential stuff. Well, here's my situation, so 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:47.520 therefore multi services have to be right, or here's what's happened, 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:50.720 so multiple services have to be right. And I'm not 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:53.400 saying we have to ignore our situations in our circumstances, 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:55.240 because those are things we have to think through and 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:57.560 address and figure out how to navigate life around those. 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:00.680 But those shouldn't be the main reason and why we say, 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:05.120 well this makes it right? Is scripture supporting what you're 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:08.840 saying or is it just convenient for you? So I'll 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:13.720 say all that before going specifically into comments, because I 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:15.600 think those there are some helpful things to think through. 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:18.240 Of one, we're not saying just because you're a member 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:20.400 of a church that might have multiple services, or maybe 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:22.640 you're a pastor of a church as multiple services, you're 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:25.879 lesser than or you're completely ignorant of everything that the 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:27.240 Bible says on these issues. 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:30.000 We know that's not true. Both of us have dear 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:35.000 brothers that have multiple services. We brought this up last time, 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:37.800 but everyone on this podcast knows Chad the multiple services. 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:41.960 I'm literally preaching there in two weeks, and he is 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:44.840 a faithful brother seeking to glorify God as the number 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:47.000 one goal of the church. Then that's why I think 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:49.800 that's such an important question, is what is the main 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:53.040 goal of the church? And if you could answer by 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:57.480 glorifying God, then then we can understand different whys behind 0:19:57.480 --> 0:19:58.480 the multiple services. 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:01.280 Yeah. 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:07.080 So, I you know, as I travel, I encounter a 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:09.520 lot of different people. I usually tell you this, Marshall, 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:14.639 and one problem I see is churches that are that 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:19.840 have grown and don't know what to do. There are 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:24.320 four services in and people are still coming and they 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:29.560 don't know what to do. And when that happens some 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.840 of these wives you were talking about get answered the 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:35.360 structure of the church itself. Are you the only pastor 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:38.560 Usually the answer is yes. Who have you been discipling 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:45.000 or trying to raise up in leadership? Nobody in seventeen years. 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:49.080 You know that is a huge problem because if you 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:52.800 of seventeen years of ministry, say, if you've been raising 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:55.920 up young men and you're at your fourth service and 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:59.119 you're busting at the seams, at some point you say, 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:03.000 this kid right here is ready. He's twenty seven years old, 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:07.480 he's been and older for me for seven years, he's 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:11.119 been on staff for five whatever, and he's ready to 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:13.959 go start a church over here in this area. And 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:17.159 that's going to help. We're going to be able to 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:21.480 send some people out from that fourth service. And so 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:24.080 these are, just like you said, things to think through. 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:27.000 And a lot of times when there's not a plan, 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:31.679 that's an indication that the main goal was numerical growth. 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:35.480 And the thruth is when you get there, sometimes you 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:38.040 look back and go, now that I've gotten my goal, 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:40.040 I don't know what to do with it because it's 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:40.880 not sustainable. 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:45.639 And there are situations where multiple services might actually be 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:49.280 necessary in the moment, but they should be temporary of course. 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:51.080 So for example, that just as we go talking to 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:53.840 somebody and they reminded me, I knew about this a 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:55.560 couple of years ago. I just completely forgot about it. 0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:58.320 There was a church in New York that right after 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:00.919 nine to eleven, like everybody with the church that Sunday 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:05.040 after that, that church all was averaging about seven to 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:07.800 eight hundred people on a Sunday. That Sunday morning after 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:11.000 nine to eleven, over three thousand people showed up. And 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:13.560 so they made the split decision in that moment, Hey, 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:15.359 we're going to add two services to this thing and 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:18.400 try to figure this out. And they had never done 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:21.120 multiple services before, so they were trying to, you know, 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:23.240 on the learn on the fly. But it was so 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:25.080 they could share the gospel with all those for coming 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:27.679 who had questions about what God was doing and how 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:29.879 he was involved in all this and how they should 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:33.640 rightly think about it. And I wouldn't say that church 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:35.119 was in sin for doing that. I think that's an 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:37.879 excellent idea. If something like that happened to us, Like 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:43.080 you know, our room can only see maybe three fifty max. 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:47.919 If we had fifteen hundred people show up on a 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:51.000 random Sunday, we wouldn't say sorry, we only got room 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:52.960 for like three fifty and then we got some standing 0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:55.480 area for another fifty of you the rest make it 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:58.119 early next week. We probably would throw a quick second 0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:00.360 service in there and try to figure it out third 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:02.440 if we needed to. But then the next week we'd 0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:04.520 be figuring out what's the long term plan. This is 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:07.680 not sustainable. We're not sticking at three services. What can 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:08.080 we do? 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:09.919 So? 0:23:11.280 --> 0:23:13.760 Or you know, your church building burns down and the 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:16.440 only place you can meet is the community center down 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:20.040 the street, but they are in town, but they can't 0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:21.560 see it as much as you used to. So you 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:23.920 have to while the church is being rebuilt from the fire, 0:23:24.040 --> 0:23:26.080 you have to go to multiple services for eight months. 0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:31.600 I would strongly encourage a church to do that. So again, 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:34.040 this is not multiple services are evil and are from 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:39.639 Satan himself. This is just what based on what Scripture 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:42.080 saying the church is supposed to do and be, which 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:46.600 are these two examples promotes that the best and that's 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:50.040 why I would say one service does and this. So 0:23:50.080 --> 0:23:52.120 this kind of goes a little bit to the comments. 0:23:52.760 --> 0:23:56.320 A lot of the comments were specifically addressing Sunday morning. 0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:58.360 And while I would say Sunday morning is the most 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:01.040 important thing the church does together, it's not the only 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:06.520 thing the church does together. And so there's a sense 0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:08.399 of like, well, if I can't get there on Sunday morning, 0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:12.040 you're hindering me from being there on Sunday morning because 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:13.960 my job or something which I know you talked about 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:16.040 in the last episode, which we can talk a little 0:24:16.040 --> 0:24:20.560 bit more about that. But the church itself is bigger 0:24:20.600 --> 0:24:23.480 than Sunday morning, and so again that your understanding of 0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:25.760 the church will influence how you think through your Sunday 0:24:25.760 --> 0:24:29.240 morning attendance. Now, you should not neglect gathering, and I 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:31.800 think that is talking about Sunday morning when the church gathers. 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:37.600 But if somebody only came on Sunday morning and never 0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:40.200 got together with other church members, never was having church 0:24:40.240 --> 0:24:43.280 members in their home, never going into other church members' homes, 0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:46.840 never doing things with other church members outside of Sunday morning, 0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:51.560 I would say that's a problem. That's not good. And 0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:54.600 so this is not just a Sunday morning service issue. 0:24:54.760 --> 0:24:57.240 This again goes back to who is the church and 0:24:57.280 --> 0:24:59.639 what is the church supposed to do? Yes, in the 0:24:59.640 --> 0:25:03.720 world large evangelize share the Gospel with anybody who will 0:25:03.760 --> 0:25:08.240 listen to you. But the church also there's more instructions 0:25:08.240 --> 0:25:09.880 about what the church are supposed to do with each 0:25:09.880 --> 0:25:11.480 other in scripture than there's what we're supposed to be 0:25:11.520 --> 0:25:14.359 outside of the church. And so it's how are you 0:25:14.400 --> 0:25:17.800 able to do those things faithfully in the church that 0:25:17.840 --> 0:25:21.359 you're in. And the reason that multiple services comes in 0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:25.240 is because multiple services tend to mean much larger churches, 0:25:25.560 --> 0:25:27.880 which again and of itself, does not mean it's sinful, 0:25:28.200 --> 0:25:31.120 but it makes some of those things really difficult that 0:25:31.160 --> 0:25:34.439 we know we're supposed to do according to scripture, and 0:25:34.480 --> 0:25:37.440 so one service kind of prevents that. Now you can say, well, well, 0:25:37.520 --> 0:25:39.480 our church meets in a stadium that can see twelve 0:25:39.480 --> 0:25:41.439 thousand people, so you're say, if we have one service, 0:25:41.480 --> 0:25:43.880 that would be good. No, that's why we also said 0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:48.359 one service doesn't mean automatically better situation, and I know 0:25:48.359 --> 0:25:50.040 of a church that does that. So that's the reason why. 0:25:51.880 --> 0:25:55.200 Example, so a quick word here from our sponsor at shopify. 0:25:55.320 --> 0:25:56.880 You know, when you look at a business that's doing 0:25:56.920 --> 0:25:59.520 really well, they're selling a lot, they're doing well at 0:25:59.520 --> 0:26:03.080 e commerce, we could put ee in this category because 0:26:03.119 --> 0:26:06.439 just because I'm biased and I love ee Apparel, and 0:26:06.480 --> 0:26:08.600 so we have ee dot com. 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Okay, so a 0:27:18.920 --> 0:27:22.080 big issue we had, I think was the people saying 0:27:22.840 --> 0:27:26.560 that their jobs didn't align with the time. What are 0:27:26.600 --> 0:27:29.000 your thoughts on this? Got Yes, I did. I did 0:27:29.000 --> 0:27:30.520 bring it up in the last podcast. What are your 0:27:30.520 --> 0:27:31.120 thoughts on this? 0:27:31.760 --> 0:27:38.080 Yeah? So when I'll say this, at our church, we 0:27:38.160 --> 0:27:42.720 have one service, we push for one service. We have firemen, 0:27:43.520 --> 0:27:50.800 police officers, nurses, and then a couple other jobs that 0:27:50.840 --> 0:27:54.720 require people to be away on some Sundays. So it's 0:27:54.720 --> 0:27:56.560 not like our church is only filled with people who 0:27:56.560 --> 0:27:58.840 have nothing to do on Sunday morning except come to church. 0:28:00.280 --> 0:28:02.080 But again to what we were saying earlier of what is 0:28:02.119 --> 0:28:05.919 the church supposed to do and be for those in 0:28:05.960 --> 0:28:14.120 those situations, our interactions with them are different. So one, 0:28:14.160 --> 0:28:16.439 we've encouraged them and they've all been able to do 0:28:16.480 --> 0:28:19.399 this to my knowledge, Yeah, all of them have been 0:28:19.400 --> 0:28:21.919 able to do this. None of them miss every Sunday 0:28:21.960 --> 0:28:24.280 every month. They've been able to work it out with 0:28:24.320 --> 0:28:25.800 their job where they can at least hit one or 0:28:25.800 --> 0:28:29.440 two Sundays a month. So for some people who say, 0:28:29.760 --> 0:28:32.480 my job will never let me take a Sunday off. 0:28:33.200 --> 0:28:35.359 I really want to push against that. I don't know 0:28:35.400 --> 0:28:38.200 if that's true in most jobs, and if it is, 0:28:38.840 --> 0:28:41.080 then that's when I would encourage somebody to maybe consider 0:28:41.120 --> 0:28:44.400 a different job, not a different career, but maybe just 0:28:44.440 --> 0:28:47.240 a different job. And that doesn't mean quit today, and 0:28:47.280 --> 0:28:50.560 hopefully you'll find something that just means start thinking through it. 0:28:53.280 --> 0:28:56.360 Because when we had a guy joined who was working 0:28:56.480 --> 0:29:00.240 every Sunday, could not be there every Sunday, and we 0:29:00.400 --> 0:29:03.280 pushed on him gently and encouraged him, showed him the 0:29:03.280 --> 0:29:06.680 importance of being there on Sunday mornings. And after a 0:29:06.720 --> 0:29:08.960 couple of months of talking to his boss and kind 0:29:08.960 --> 0:29:11.440 of working things out. Now it required him to get 0:29:11.480 --> 0:29:14.720 creative and stuff like that, he came to us said, hey, 0:29:14.760 --> 0:29:16.280 I can make two Sundays a month, and we're like, 0:29:16.320 --> 0:29:22.000 praise the Lord, that's amazing, Like that's great. Occasionally there's 0:29:22.000 --> 0:29:24.240 a random month where he has to work three Sundays, 0:29:24.720 --> 0:29:26.680 but he did everything he could to make it to 0:29:26.720 --> 0:29:30.520 where he could attend sometimes. But in those situations, we 0:29:30.600 --> 0:29:32.480 know all the people who are in those situations, and 0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:34.840 so the pastors are regularly reaching out to them. How 0:29:34.880 --> 0:29:39.840 are you personally doing they'll tell us, hey, this month, 0:29:40.000 --> 0:29:41.760 you know, I can't come to the first two Sundays, 0:29:41.800 --> 0:29:43.120 but I'll be there on the second too, So just 0:29:43.160 --> 0:29:44.680 so you know, you'll see my family, you won't see me. 0:29:44.960 --> 0:29:46.480 So they're letting us know so we know how to 0:29:46.520 --> 0:29:48.280 be praying for them, how to care for their families 0:29:48.360 --> 0:29:54.520 during those times. Just this past Sunday, saw the wife 0:29:54.560 --> 0:29:57.400 and kids of one of our members who works on 0:29:57.440 --> 0:30:01.640 some Sundays and just said, hey, how's he doing? You know, 0:30:01.720 --> 0:30:05.400 how's work going. Was able to encourage them while they 0:30:05.440 --> 0:30:08.480 were here with us. So one if somebody were to 0:30:08.520 --> 0:30:10.680 say there's never a Sunday where I'm available, I would 0:30:10.680 --> 0:30:13.920 either say one, then start thinking through what it could 0:30:14.000 --> 0:30:18.000 look like months from now, after making some decisions about 0:30:18.280 --> 0:30:21.040 maybe a different job and not necessarily different career, but 0:30:21.040 --> 0:30:24.960 maybe a different job. But have you really exhausted all 0:30:24.960 --> 0:30:27.680 the opportunities to ask for at least a couple Sundays 0:30:27.680 --> 0:30:31.520 off to make it work some But that being said, 0:30:31.600 --> 0:30:33.720 all of our members who do have that situation where 0:30:33.720 --> 0:30:36.880 they work on Sunday mornings and they're limited on how 0:30:36.920 --> 0:30:39.920 often they can be on Sunday mornings, they really prioritize 0:30:39.960 --> 0:30:42.240 the other things. We encourage it. They come to our members' meetings, 0:30:42.320 --> 0:30:45.080 they're coming to Wednesday night Bible study, they're having people 0:30:45.080 --> 0:30:47.200 in their homes for meals. They're trying to go into 0:30:47.200 --> 0:30:49.840 other people's homes for meals. The guy was just talking 0:30:49.920 --> 0:30:52.400 about he goes to lunch regularly with guys during the 0:30:52.400 --> 0:30:56.080 week because his week schedule is a little more flexible 0:30:56.080 --> 0:30:57.880 than other guys, so he works around their schedule. So 0:30:57.920 --> 0:30:59.960 he's meeting with them so that the church knows how 0:31:00.240 --> 0:31:02.880 and he knows the church. So yes, he misses a 0:31:02.880 --> 0:31:06.440 couple Sundays every month, but he's still actively involved in 0:31:06.480 --> 0:31:09.240 the church. If we had to bring him up at 0:31:09.240 --> 0:31:11.880 a members meeting to say, hey, he's he's got a 0:31:11.880 --> 0:31:14.520 health situation, so please be praying for him, we wouldn't 0:31:14.520 --> 0:31:16.960 say his name, and most people go who's that. They 0:31:17.000 --> 0:31:19.520 would all go, oh, yeah, I know, his work schedule 0:31:19.600 --> 0:31:21.760 is really difficult for him to be on Sundays. But man, 0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:26.280 that guy's always involved doing stuff. He's had a lot 0:31:26.280 --> 0:31:28.040 of people over, He's got to know a lot of guys, 0:31:28.960 --> 0:31:31.120 and so there's a sense of he still feels like 0:31:31.200 --> 0:31:33.000 part of the church even though he's not there on 0:31:33.040 --> 0:31:36.800 Sunday mornings because of his intentionality with getting to know 0:31:36.880 --> 0:31:42.120 members and letting members get to know him. But then 0:31:42.160 --> 0:31:44.640 he does whatever he can to be there on Sunday mornings. 0:31:44.800 --> 0:31:46.680 So he never has a Sunday morning off of work 0:31:46.720 --> 0:31:48.720 and goes, man, today is just gonna be a nice day. 0:31:49.040 --> 0:31:51.400 He will get up and he will come to work 0:31:51.480 --> 0:31:54.480 and say this is important for me. 0:31:56.200 --> 0:31:59.720 And so what you've done, though, is you've described in 0:32:00.040 --> 0:32:04.240 environment where pastors are in the lives of the members, 0:32:05.040 --> 0:32:08.600 the members are in the lives of the members. There 0:32:08.640 --> 0:32:11.840 is direct communication with all of this, and there is 0:32:12.600 --> 0:32:17.920 there's thoughtful intention behind the person who has the job 0:32:17.960 --> 0:32:19.680 that's keeping them away a little bit. 0:32:20.200 --> 0:32:23.360 And I'm thankful for those individuals who are in specifically 0:32:23.440 --> 0:32:28.120 the medical field or law enforcement who we need them 0:32:28.120 --> 0:32:29.280 working on Sunday mornings. 0:32:29.480 --> 0:32:29.760 Yeah. 0:32:29.840 --> 0:32:33.760 Right, Like my third our third child, our son Ezekiel 0:32:34.480 --> 0:32:41.840 here no Soaiah, he was born around ten thirty in 0:32:41.880 --> 0:32:44.080 the morning on a Sunday morning. We weren't in the 0:32:44.160 --> 0:32:45.920 labor and delivery room, going what are you guys doing here? 0:32:45.920 --> 0:32:47.840 You're supposed to be at church, Like we were thankful 0:32:47.880 --> 0:32:54.160 they were there and we were there, but you know, 0:32:54.560 --> 0:32:56.800 if if that had been one of our members, you know, 0:32:56.880 --> 0:33:00.680 working in labor and delivery delivery, we would want them 0:33:00.720 --> 0:33:02.520 to be there to care for people. But at the 0:33:02.520 --> 0:33:04.920 same time as their pastors, we would be saying, have 0:33:05.000 --> 0:33:07.520 you talked to your supervisors about seeing if there's some 0:33:07.560 --> 0:33:10.000 Sundays you can get off? We recognize you can't do 0:33:10.040 --> 0:33:12.720 every Sunday and we need people in the medical field working, 0:33:13.520 --> 0:33:15.640 but can you get one Sunday off a month? And 0:33:15.680 --> 0:33:17.720 then what are you doing outside of Sunday mornings with 0:33:17.840 --> 0:33:20.320 the church to ensure that you're still connected to the church. 0:33:20.840 --> 0:33:23.040 And so what's really cool is we for the members 0:33:23.080 --> 0:33:24.880 that we do have, who are you know, we have 0:33:24.920 --> 0:33:28.400 probably like three or four cops in the church, maybe more, no, 0:33:28.480 --> 0:33:32.800 three or four, a few nurses, and then against some 0:33:32.800 --> 0:33:37.000 of those two firemen and some other people in jobs 0:33:37.000 --> 0:33:39.200 that require them to be away on some Sundays. But 0:33:39.440 --> 0:33:41.800 when those people are missing on Sundays, there's other members 0:33:41.880 --> 0:33:45.600 calling them. Hey, you know, we record our sermons, so 0:33:45.600 --> 0:33:48.120 they'll listen. All those people will listen to the sermons 0:33:48.200 --> 0:33:52.560 as soon as they can, but we'll have people reach out, hey, 0:33:52.960 --> 0:33:55.160 you know, how do the sermon encourage you? What do 0:33:55.240 --> 0:33:58.040 you think about the third point that was brought up 0:33:58.080 --> 0:33:59.840 in the sermon? It made me think about that situation 0:34:00.160 --> 0:34:01.960 talked about a couple of weeks ago. How do you 0:34:02.000 --> 0:34:04.480 think that connects to your situation? And so they're actually 0:34:04.560 --> 0:34:08.399 talking about the sermon with other members, so they're they're 0:34:08.440 --> 0:34:11.040 living life together as I think scripture would call them to, 0:34:12.680 --> 0:34:15.400 even though they can't be there every single Sunday morning. 0:34:16.960 --> 0:34:18.879 And then there's some people who would claim that their 0:34:18.920 --> 0:34:20.759 job requires them work every Sunday morning, but if you 0:34:20.800 --> 0:34:24.040 really do some digging, it doesn't. So we had we 0:34:24.080 --> 0:34:26.080 had a guy visit the church and he came in 0:34:26.160 --> 0:34:28.640 he said, Hey, I love this church, but this is 0:34:28.640 --> 0:34:30.239 like the only Sunday I'm off this year. But I 0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:33.000 really want a place for my family. And we said, oh, man, 0:34:33.040 --> 0:34:37.239 you should really be in church, Like what what's preventing you? 0:34:37.280 --> 0:34:40.439 And the way he described his job, we thought, there's 0:34:40.480 --> 0:34:43.040 no way that that job requires you to be there 0:34:43.040 --> 0:34:45.760 every Sunday. And so after meeting with them a few times, 0:34:45.760 --> 0:34:48.120 he finally said, well, they don't require me to be there, 0:34:48.120 --> 0:34:49.480 but I just get a lot of work done on 0:34:49.520 --> 0:34:51.560 Sundays because nobody else is there, so I'm able to 0:34:51.600 --> 0:34:53.440 focus really intently. I just get a lot done. And 0:34:53.440 --> 0:34:56.919 we said, well, that's that's not that's very different than 0:34:57.000 --> 0:34:58.560 than the than the cop who has to work on 0:34:58.600 --> 0:35:00.640 Sunday mornings, or the labor and deliver nurse who has 0:35:00.640 --> 0:35:03.960 to work on Sunday mornings. And so sometimes it's really 0:35:03.960 --> 0:35:07.960 digging in is does this job actually require me to 0:35:08.080 --> 0:35:10.759 be here on Sunday mornings? And then that's when you 0:35:10.760 --> 0:35:13.359 start asking questions of if that's true, does that mean 0:35:13.520 --> 0:35:15.719 every Sunday morning or is there a way I can 0:35:15.760 --> 0:35:19.360 work around it. So another example, this was from the 0:35:19.440 --> 0:35:22.000 last church I was at. The last church I was in, 0:35:22.800 --> 0:35:26.000 there was somebody who did need to work on Sunday mornings. 0:35:27.480 --> 0:35:30.840 She was a nurse, but the reason she had to 0:35:30.880 --> 0:35:33.879 work every single Sunday morning was because she was requesting 0:35:34.320 --> 0:35:37.759 Friday nights and Saturday Saturday nights off. And if she'd 0:35:37.760 --> 0:35:39.440 only taken two of those a month, she could have 0:35:39.760 --> 0:35:42.880 replaced them, replaced those Sunday mornings with those two. And 0:35:42.920 --> 0:35:45.640 so there is showing the priority. I'd rather have my 0:35:45.680 --> 0:35:49.360 Friday nights and my Saturday nights, then two Sunday mornings. 0:35:50.880 --> 0:35:52.880 Last week was the priority? Yeah? 0:35:53.040 --> 0:35:56.760 Yeah, And so I think it's extremely rare for somebody 0:35:56.800 --> 0:35:59.319 to be in a position where their job requires them 0:35:59.360 --> 0:36:02.840 and there is appbsolutely no way they can work it 0:36:02.880 --> 0:36:04.560 out to where they could make one or two service 0:36:04.640 --> 0:36:10.880 Sunday services a month. And you know, I thought I 0:36:10.880 --> 0:36:12.840 saw a lot of comments, you know with third shifts, 0:36:13.080 --> 0:36:15.879 you know, all that kind of stuff. We have two 0:36:15.920 --> 0:36:18.080 guys in our church who do that, and they come 0:36:18.120 --> 0:36:21.239 into church exhausted on Sunday mornings, but they and then 0:36:21.280 --> 0:36:24.239 they go home and they go straight to sleep. But 0:36:24.360 --> 0:36:26.400 both of them talk about how important it is for 0:36:26.440 --> 0:36:29.680 them to be there, like but I gotta be and really, 0:36:29.719 --> 0:36:31.040 over time they said, like this is kind of a 0:36:31.120 --> 0:36:33.520 nice way to end my shift, like showing up here, yeah, 0:36:33.640 --> 0:36:36.960 and finishing with people of God and worshiping and so 0:36:39.320 --> 0:36:41.799 and again. If they said, but you're our service at 0:36:41.840 --> 0:36:44.160 ten am, they said, your service at ten am, I 0:36:44.160 --> 0:36:45.960 don't get off till nine thirty. There's no way how 0:36:46.000 --> 0:36:47.600 to make it in time. But if y'all at ten thirty, 0:36:47.640 --> 0:36:49.640 I might be able to make it. We would say, well, 0:36:50.160 --> 0:36:53.279 you being with the gathered church is so important, you 0:36:53.320 --> 0:36:55.040 don't need to come to our church like we have 0:36:55.520 --> 0:36:57.919 five other churches in town that we would happily send 0:36:57.960 --> 0:37:00.400 you to. I know these three meet at ten thirty. 0:37:02.040 --> 0:37:04.440 We would encourage you to go there. And so this 0:37:04.480 --> 0:37:07.239 goes to the question about growth earlier too, is we 0:37:07.280 --> 0:37:09.520 have no problem encouraging people to go to churches closer 0:37:09.520 --> 0:37:13.000 to where they live. So every Sunday we'll meet somebody 0:37:13.040 --> 0:37:14.640 because I stand at the doors, try to greet as 0:37:14.640 --> 0:37:18.240 many people as I can as they're leaving or before service, 0:37:18.239 --> 0:37:22.200 as they come in. And every time it's a first 0:37:22.239 --> 0:37:24.120 time visitor, I'll say, I'll ask how do you hear 0:37:24.160 --> 0:37:26.759 about us? And then two I'll ask, well, where do 0:37:26.840 --> 0:37:30.279 you live? And if somebody says, oh, I live in 0:37:30.320 --> 0:37:34.520 Cedar Park, I'll say, oh, have you tried out this church? 0:37:34.560 --> 0:37:36.680 And this church and this church all use three churches 0:37:36.719 --> 0:37:39.200 that I know are either in Cedar Park or between 0:37:39.239 --> 0:37:44.400 them and us that are much closer, faithfully preaching the gospel, 0:37:44.480 --> 0:37:47.319 like minded. And if they say no, I'll say, look, 0:37:47.320 --> 0:37:49.719 we're not saying you can't come here, but it would 0:37:49.719 --> 0:37:52.239 be really beneficial for you if you go to this church, 0:37:52.280 --> 0:37:54.440 because it sounds like this church is five minutes from 0:37:54.440 --> 0:37:56.919 where you live, and we're thirty five minutes from where 0:37:56.920 --> 0:37:59.239 you live. So if you decide to come here, we're 0:37:59.239 --> 0:38:00.560 not going to tell you no, but I think you 0:38:00.560 --> 0:38:02.759 should at least go check out a service over here. 0:38:04.440 --> 0:38:06.160 So that's not me saying, hey, I don't want this 0:38:06.239 --> 0:38:08.279 church to grow. That's me saying, what's going to be 0:38:08.320 --> 0:38:11.600 most beneficial for your soul to be at a church 0:38:11.640 --> 0:38:14.560 that's close to you. Now, if they're coming from somewhere 0:38:14.560 --> 0:38:17.319 where I can't think of any solid church between them 0:38:17.360 --> 0:38:19.279 and us, I'll be like, look, come here and maybe 0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:20.960 one day we can plan a church closer to you. 0:38:22.600 --> 0:38:25.360 That Brandon said, a church that's alive is worse to drive. 0:38:25.480 --> 0:38:28.799 That's right, That's exactly right. It's a Britain thing to say. 0:38:29.160 --> 0:38:32.600 So you're not advocating for people to go, well, hey, 0:38:32.880 --> 0:38:36.080 that church has a five o'clock message, so I'm just 0:38:36.080 --> 0:38:39.760 going to go to that. But you're saying healthy churches. 0:38:40.400 --> 0:38:42.640 Of the healthy churches, let's choose one that's closer to 0:38:42.680 --> 0:38:45.960 your house and has a better time, because I think 0:38:45.960 --> 0:38:48.600 that's the people's biggest argument was, man, I would rather 0:38:48.640 --> 0:38:51.399 go to this church, the mega church down the road, 0:38:51.440 --> 0:38:54.560 because they have four services, and of the four, I 0:38:54.560 --> 0:38:58.040 could always find one that fits my schedule. Yeah, I 0:38:58.080 --> 0:39:02.480 was smiling earlier because thinking about the Jewish religion, when 0:39:02.520 --> 0:39:05.960 they have their Sabbath, they give everything up, they stop everything, 0:39:06.680 --> 0:39:10.360 but they still expect to be served on by the 0:39:10.360 --> 0:39:14.560 people that aren't in their faith. And so it's interesting 0:39:14.600 --> 0:39:19.360 the contrast between you at the hospital with Hoseiah and 0:39:21.440 --> 0:39:23.880 if that was a Jewish baby, it would be born, 0:39:24.120 --> 0:39:27.120 and they would they wouldn't think twice about the people 0:39:27.239 --> 0:39:30.839 working the third shift or the medical field. But in 0:39:30.880 --> 0:39:34.239 our faith, it's it's always about the heart. Jesus was 0:39:34.280 --> 0:39:37.000 always about the heart of the people. Where is your heart, 0:39:37.120 --> 0:39:41.800 What's what's the process, the transformational process, not the outcome. 0:39:42.320 --> 0:39:46.560 And the Jewish religion is always about the outcome. It's 0:39:46.680 --> 0:39:48.960 you have to you have to block off the Sabbath, 0:39:49.480 --> 0:39:51.440 and then we're still hope that our power grid stays on, 0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:54.319 that non Jewish people are working, and we hope that, 0:39:54.680 --> 0:39:57.600 you know, the the food is still being cooked by 0:39:57.640 --> 0:39:59.400 non Jewish people, and we hope that the hospitals are 0:39:59.440 --> 0:40:04.000 opened by non Jewish people. It's very interesting. I remember 0:40:04.840 --> 0:40:07.239 one time, that's not just Jewish people too, No, it's not, 0:40:07.600 --> 0:40:10.600 it's not. That was just fresh on my mind. 0:40:10.680 --> 0:40:11.640 Yeahs, I've seen that. 0:40:12.239 --> 0:40:15.480 But I remember one time I was in a city 0:40:16.200 --> 0:40:18.719 early on a Sunday downstairs in the hotel. I was 0:40:18.760 --> 0:40:20.680 going to preach that morning, and I was doing the 0:40:20.719 --> 0:40:25.359 final prep looking at my manuscript. It was like six 0:40:25.400 --> 0:40:27.440 o'clock in the morning at the lobby of a hotel 0:40:27.480 --> 0:40:30.440 and no one was down there, And I remember that 0:40:31.239 --> 0:40:33.640 I heard a ding and the elevator opened and all 0:40:33.719 --> 0:40:37.600 these kids come out with their softball or baseball uniforms, 0:40:38.040 --> 0:40:40.840 and all the parents like, Hey, grab a sausage biscuit 0:40:40.920 --> 0:40:42.920 and orne juice, and let's get out there. We got 0:40:43.040 --> 0:40:45.840 to hurry. And I do have a problem with that. 0:40:46.880 --> 0:40:47.279 I do. 0:40:47.640 --> 0:40:49.920 Uh. You know, when we talk about people who work 0:40:49.920 --> 0:40:51.840 in the third shift and having jobs and needing to 0:40:51.920 --> 0:40:54.319 talk with their boss, there's so much nuance to that, 0:40:54.360 --> 0:40:58.120 and it's about the heart. But but just I have 0:40:58.239 --> 0:41:02.239 so much If you're going to actually miss church completely 0:41:02.880 --> 0:41:05.279 because it's a baseball game for a ten year old, 0:41:05.800 --> 0:41:07.360 I'm sorry. I just have a problem with that. 0:41:07.640 --> 0:41:10.120 Yeah, I do too. 0:41:10.640 --> 0:41:12.440 Is there a question? We haven't even got to sing 0:41:12.719 --> 0:41:17.880 a single one yet, But you know, the first one 0:41:17.880 --> 0:41:21.120 I'm looking at is I respectfully disagree with y'all on 0:41:21.160 --> 0:41:25.480 the multiple service thing. We don't know. We don't have 0:41:25.560 --> 0:41:29.000 to to know all two thousand people that attend the 0:41:29.040 --> 0:41:32.319 same church, is the argument. This is from Kimbers at 0:41:32.400 --> 0:41:37.120 Kimber's twelve thirty eight. To me, it's important to have 0:41:37.239 --> 0:41:40.680 small groups where you get to know each other, build 0:41:40.719 --> 0:41:44.040 each other up, and call out sin where needed. I 0:41:44.080 --> 0:41:48.359 find your point nitpicking when we are looking for a church. 0:41:48.480 --> 0:41:52.239 This is a minor issue. This is this is this 0:41:52.320 --> 0:41:55.560 is a great comment because it's so common. That is 0:41:55.600 --> 0:41:57.759 a very common. In fact, a lot of people listening 0:41:57.840 --> 0:42:01.000 right now probably go, yeah, that's what I was saying. These 0:42:01.040 --> 0:42:03.560 guys are just nitpicking. These guys are overthinking it. I 0:42:03.600 --> 0:42:05.560 get called out for that all the time. You're just 0:42:05.640 --> 0:42:09.040 overthinking things, man. So what do you say to that? 0:42:09.120 --> 0:42:13.520 What do you say to we don't have to know 0:42:13.680 --> 0:42:16.600 all two thousand people that attend the same church. That's 0:42:16.640 --> 0:42:18.919 why it's important to have small groups to know each other, 0:42:19.040 --> 0:42:20.759 build each other, build each other up, and call each 0:42:20.760 --> 0:42:25.799 other out. We're needed. And there's three comments that agree 0:42:25.840 --> 0:42:26.120 with them. 0:42:27.320 --> 0:42:35.319 Yeah, So to that, I would say, you don't need 0:42:35.400 --> 0:42:38.680 to know all two thousand members equally. But you do 0:42:38.719 --> 0:42:41.200 need to know all two thousand members. If you're going 0:42:41.239 --> 0:42:44.040 to have two thousand, you need to know because again, 0:42:44.080 --> 0:42:46.480 so this is where you know, our church has two thousands. 0:42:46.480 --> 0:42:47.799 So we lean on small groups to get to know 0:42:47.840 --> 0:42:52.279 each other. Okay, I'm not anti small groups. I mean 0:42:52.320 --> 0:42:56.279 we don't have them in our churches, but you know, 0:42:56.280 --> 0:42:59.600 I'm not anti them. I think churches are fine to 0:42:59.640 --> 0:43:03.080 have them, but usually they're put in place to kind 0:43:03.080 --> 0:43:07.920 of force community. And the concern that I have with 0:43:07.960 --> 0:43:10.960 small groups when it's to force community. So this is 0:43:11.000 --> 0:43:12.920 how you can know that you're connected to the church 0:43:13.280 --> 0:43:15.920 because you know these people that are in your small group. 0:43:18.840 --> 0:43:24.920 That's a that's a program of the church that is 0:43:24.960 --> 0:43:29.760 meant to build community. And to me, that's ironic because 0:43:29.880 --> 0:43:32.400 the Bible has already given you something to have community, 0:43:32.440 --> 0:43:36.600 and that's the church. So that's saying the picture that 0:43:36.600 --> 0:43:39.560 the Scripture's given us of the church wasn't enough. So 0:43:39.560 --> 0:43:41.960 now I need this one ministry to make me feel connected. 0:43:44.280 --> 0:43:48.600 And that's so that might sound nitpicky because some people 0:43:48.640 --> 0:43:51.520 will say, well, now you're saying I can't you know, 0:43:51.640 --> 0:43:54.200 be friends with a smaller group of people in my church. 0:43:54.280 --> 0:43:56.480 That's not true. I'm closer to some members than I 0:43:56.480 --> 0:43:58.680 am to others. But I know all of our members. 0:43:59.719 --> 0:44:02.399 I know where all of our and this is as 0:44:02.400 --> 0:44:05.560 a pastor, I know we're all If our members are 0:44:05.560 --> 0:44:09.520 open with us and and being honest with us, then 0:44:09.560 --> 0:44:12.759 I know where all of our members struggle and how 0:44:12.760 --> 0:44:16.960 I can help pastor and shepherd them well. And we 0:44:17.000 --> 0:44:19.040 have we have four pastors right now for you know, 0:44:19.120 --> 0:44:22.520 I'm a staff pastor. We have three non staff pastors, 0:44:24.800 --> 0:44:28.840 but they each know member all the members as well. 0:44:29.000 --> 0:44:32.680 But that means Steven will know some members better than 0:44:32.680 --> 0:44:36.080 I do. So this is where multiple pastors is helpful. Right, 0:44:36.120 --> 0:44:38.719 I'll know them, I might know some things are going through, 0:44:38.760 --> 0:44:40.520 I'll know their life situation. I'll know how to pray 0:44:40.560 --> 0:44:42.680 for them and care for them as one of their pastors. 0:44:43.000 --> 0:44:45.160 But Steven might have a better relationship with them, and 0:44:45.200 --> 0:44:47.520 he might be able to say, so, here's some updates 0:44:47.520 --> 0:44:49.880 on what's going on, here's this, and so that that 0:44:49.920 --> 0:44:53.680 allows us to care for them well. And so when 0:44:53.719 --> 0:44:58.160 you when somebody says, well, you know, there's no way 0:44:58.200 --> 0:45:00.799 to really know two thousands, so and we there's no 0:45:00.840 --> 0:45:03.560 way to know two thousands. So therefore we don't have 0:45:03.600 --> 0:45:07.520 to know two thousand. I just don't see that in scripture. 0:45:07.920 --> 0:45:10.000 Like I see when Paul and First Corinthians is talking 0:45:10.040 --> 0:45:13.359 about disciplining somebody out of the church. He doesn't say, Hey, 0:45:13.360 --> 0:45:15.160 those of you in the church who know this guy, 0:45:15.640 --> 0:45:17.440 can you let the other people know why he shouldn't 0:45:17.440 --> 0:45:19.480 be a part of the church. He talks to the 0:45:19.480 --> 0:45:23.600 whole church and says, this isn't like y'all are all 0:45:23.640 --> 0:45:25.879 putting up with this and you shouldn't be. You need 0:45:25.920 --> 0:45:30.080 to remove him from your mist because he's not acting 0:45:30.200 --> 0:45:33.120 like a Christian. He's doing things even non Christians would 0:45:33.160 --> 0:45:38.440 be ashamed of and look down on, and you're just 0:45:38.520 --> 0:45:40.640 letting him be here. So there's a sense of this 0:45:40.760 --> 0:45:45.600 church knew who this guy was. And then you know, 0:45:45.800 --> 0:45:48.600 and picking elders, the church knows who its leadership is. 0:45:50.120 --> 0:45:53.440 And so with that, you said, you have four elders, 0:45:53.600 --> 0:45:54.480 four pastors. 0:45:55.040 --> 0:45:58.200 What is the primary function of the pastor? 0:45:58.800 --> 0:46:00.680 Yeah, So in our MEMBERSIP class, we talk about the 0:46:00.719 --> 0:46:04.720 pastor has the three main rules are ministry of the word, prayer, 0:46:04.760 --> 0:46:08.840 and soul care. So pastors, oversee, the teaching doesn't mean 0:46:08.880 --> 0:46:10.880 the pastors are the only ones doing the teaching. So 0:46:10.920 --> 0:46:13.919 we have guys, I mean, you've preached before, you've taught 0:46:13.920 --> 0:46:16.120 a devotional for us. We have other guys in the 0:46:16.200 --> 0:46:18.520 church who have taught devotionals and preached for us. So 0:46:18.560 --> 0:46:20.960 we're not the only ones doing the teaching. But we 0:46:21.000 --> 0:46:24.600 oversee it, so we know who's going to be teaching. 0:46:24.640 --> 0:46:28.120 When we've approved them as a teacher, we know what 0:46:28.160 --> 0:46:31.040 they're going to be teaching because we feel like we're 0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:33.600 held responsible for what's going to get taught. Now, ultimately, 0:46:33.640 --> 0:46:36.719 the church itself is responsible. Paul mentions this in Galatians 0:46:36.719 --> 0:46:39.000 one when he rebukes false teaching coming to the church, 0:46:39.120 --> 0:46:41.239 which again I think argues the whole church needs to 0:46:41.280 --> 0:46:45.000 be involved in this. Paul rebukes the entire church for 0:46:45.080 --> 0:46:49.240 letting false teaching come in and persist. Now, the elders, 0:46:49.320 --> 0:46:53.480 the pastors are the front lines of it. But elders 0:46:53.520 --> 0:46:57.000 pastors are fallible men who make mistakes and can be 0:46:57.080 --> 0:46:59.919 deceived themselves, and so false teaching could get past them. 0:47:00.280 --> 0:47:02.080 And that's why Paul says to the church, this is 0:47:02.120 --> 0:47:07.160 on you. And then even the letters that John that 0:47:07.719 --> 0:47:10.040 are given to the seven churches in the book Revelation, 0:47:10.440 --> 0:47:13.160 they're addressed to the church, so all the people in 0:47:13.200 --> 0:47:15.800 the church, and so they're all being held accountable for 0:47:15.840 --> 0:47:21.120 what's happening in the church. And so so ministry the 0:47:21.160 --> 0:47:23.239 word so overseeing, and that means they're doing the bulk 0:47:23.280 --> 0:47:29.480 of the preaching a prayer, So elders should be praying immensely. 0:47:30.840 --> 0:47:35.720 If if a pastor never prays, that is a huge 0:47:35.880 --> 0:47:40.640 red flag for a church. And then third soul care, 0:47:41.000 --> 0:47:47.160 so specifically pulling from Hebrews thirteen, you know where pastors 0:47:47.200 --> 0:47:49.080 will have to give an account to the Lord for 0:47:49.160 --> 0:47:53.759 the souls of which they're shepherding. Acts twenty. I think 0:47:53.760 --> 0:47:57.080 I mentioned both these passages last time on the podcast. 0:47:57.120 --> 0:48:00.640 But Acts twenty shepherd the flock among you, So there's 0:48:00.640 --> 0:48:02.839 a sense of their they're watching over their souls and 0:48:02.840 --> 0:48:06.480 caring for them spiritually. And so there's a sense whereas 0:48:06.520 --> 0:48:08.400 the elders, we need to know all the members. 0:48:08.719 --> 0:48:10.120 You think that's a biblical command? 0:48:10.280 --> 0:48:14.279 Yes, yeah, I do. I do. So I would say 0:48:13.920 --> 0:48:17.360 if a guy shows up to a church. I was 0:48:17.400 --> 0:48:19.480 just talking to this with another guy the other day. 0:48:19.760 --> 0:48:22.360 If a guy shows up to a church, preaches on 0:48:22.400 --> 0:48:26.719 Sunday mornings and then leaves and doesn't have relationships in 0:48:26.760 --> 0:48:30.480 the church. People speak in his life. Members can never 0:48:30.520 --> 0:48:34.399 get a hold of him. If you or I were 0:48:34.400 --> 0:48:36.160 to walk up to him and say, hey, how's your 0:48:36.160 --> 0:48:39.239 membership doing, and he only speaks about how big the 0:48:39.320 --> 0:48:43.719 church is, or how giving's going, or hey there's no 0:48:43.760 --> 0:48:46.120 big fights going on, things must be going well. I 0:48:46.160 --> 0:48:48.440 got a big problem with that. I got a real 0:48:48.440 --> 0:48:52.080 big problem with that because there's some guys who love 0:48:52.200 --> 0:48:56.799 to preach but hate to pastor, and that is not 0:48:57.719 --> 0:49:00.799 a thing in scripture. Somebody who can just preach and 0:49:00.840 --> 0:49:03.920 not love the people. So, because the best preaching is 0:49:03.960 --> 0:49:07.480 the preaching that flows from the pastoral care that's been 0:49:07.480 --> 0:49:12.040 done throughout the week. So when I'm prepping a sermon, 0:49:12.360 --> 0:49:15.040 I'm not just like, what does this passage say? That's 0:49:15.040 --> 0:49:18.640 where I start. But then I think, what is this 0:49:18.760 --> 0:49:22.440 passage saying, and how's what it's saying going to benefit 0:49:22.640 --> 0:49:25.480 the people I'm supposed to be shepherding. So we record 0:49:25.520 --> 0:49:28.440 our sermons. I don't preach a sermon assuming people are 0:49:28.440 --> 0:49:30.759 going to listen to it later. So there might be 0:49:30.760 --> 0:49:32.880 things I say in the sermon that are specifically for 0:49:32.960 --> 0:49:37.000 our congregation. I have to know our congregation in order 0:49:37.040 --> 0:49:40.120 to be able to say those things. And there's certain 0:49:40.160 --> 0:49:43.280 things I won't say because our congregation is not struggling 0:49:43.280 --> 0:49:45.239 with that. They're not going through that. 0:49:46.440 --> 0:49:50.400 Well, let me say this. So four pastors, and you 0:49:50.480 --> 0:49:53.120 name the three roles of them, But you didn't say 0:49:53.960 --> 0:49:58.840 that you have a communications pastor, a media pastor, youth pastor, 0:49:59.560 --> 0:50:05.920 women's pastor, music pastor. You don't even have associate pastors. 0:50:05.920 --> 0:50:08.799 Not that that not not that I want you to 0:50:08.840 --> 0:50:13.759 help me or help us with. When someone says, well, 0:50:14.040 --> 0:50:19.279 we have twelve pastors at our church. Sometimes a lot 0:50:19.320 --> 0:50:25.759 of times there's there's a there's a misdefinition of what 0:50:25.960 --> 0:50:31.520 pastor means, what the Bible says that a pastor is. Instead, 0:50:31.560 --> 0:50:34.680 it becomes a title that's put on any kind of 0:50:34.760 --> 0:50:42.480 leadership in the church. Multimedia pastor, uh, sports pastor, I 0:50:42.600 --> 0:50:43.320 saw that before. 0:50:44.360 --> 0:50:45.320 What is sports pastor? 0:50:45.400 --> 0:50:47.319 Well, we have a lot of athletes in our congregation. 0:50:48.840 --> 0:50:52.680 It's like the singles pastor seen that you kind of 0:50:52.680 --> 0:50:58.760 divide up groups or technologies or systems within the church itself, 0:50:59.160 --> 0:51:01.640 and you you put a leader in charge of the 0:51:01.719 --> 0:51:04.520 system or the group and then you call them a pastor. 0:51:05.440 --> 0:51:09.000 No, you don't have that, No, because that's not what 0:51:09.040 --> 0:51:13.440 a pastor does. Now we could again again, based on 0:51:13.480 --> 0:51:17.320 guys personalities or skill sets, it might be more prudent 0:51:17.360 --> 0:51:19.399 to let them take the lead on a specific thing. 0:51:22.400 --> 0:51:25.040 But that doesn't mean that's all his responses, that's that's 0:51:25.080 --> 0:51:28.120 only his responsibility, or that's his only responsibility. 0:51:28.360 --> 0:51:31.120 You don't need to have missions pastor. Right, it's another system, 0:51:31.200 --> 0:51:33.560 right church, put a pastor in charge. 0:51:33.600 --> 0:51:36.080 Yeah, so I think all pastors should be doing counseling 0:51:36.239 --> 0:51:39.200 when members have issues they need to work through. It 0:51:39.239 --> 0:51:41.080 should not be a shock to have a pastor sit 0:51:41.160 --> 0:51:44.839 down with you and help you think what descriptures say 0:51:44.840 --> 0:51:47.000 about the situation I'm going through. That doesn't mean they have 0:51:47.000 --> 0:51:49.719 to have a counseling degree or that hey, you only 0:51:49.719 --> 0:51:52.000 counsel with me and nobody else. But there should be 0:51:52.000 --> 0:51:53.680 the sense where a member can go to a pastor 0:51:53.760 --> 0:51:55.839 and say, here's what I'm wrestling with, here's what I'm 0:51:55.840 --> 0:51:58.200 struggling with. I don't know what the Bible says about it, 0:51:58.239 --> 0:52:00.799 and a pastor. Pastor could at least give a foundational 0:52:00.880 --> 0:52:04.000 understanding of how scripture might speak to the situation they're 0:52:04.040 --> 0:52:06.640 going through. And then because of the trust built between 0:52:06.640 --> 0:52:08.920 the member and the pastor. And I'm saying pastor, I'm 0:52:08.920 --> 0:52:11.319 not necessarily saying the one lead guy. So when I'm 0:52:11.320 --> 0:52:12.799 saying pastor, I'm saying it could be any four of 0:52:12.800 --> 0:52:13.200 our guys. 0:52:13.200 --> 0:52:14.399 We people think of it that way. 0:52:14.520 --> 0:52:16.160 Yeah, and so as I want to push it a 0:52:16.200 --> 0:52:20.640 little bit against that, but because of the trust built 0:52:20.719 --> 0:52:24.120 up there, it could also be. Hey, I think what 0:52:24.239 --> 0:52:26.399 you're going here's what I think the Bible is saying 0:52:26.440 --> 0:52:29.520 about your situational least at a foundational level. But also, 0:52:29.760 --> 0:52:31.319 I know we have this other member who's gone through 0:52:31.320 --> 0:52:32.759 the exact same thing. I think you should meet with 0:52:32.800 --> 0:52:35.160 them for a few weeks and y'all can talk through 0:52:35.160 --> 0:52:37.480 this issue. I'm happy to I'm happy to reach out 0:52:37.480 --> 0:52:39.520 to them and give you give them a heads up 0:52:39.520 --> 0:52:43.600 about why you're reaching out, or Hey, what you're going 0:52:43.640 --> 0:52:47.000 through is like, I can give you a foundational understanding 0:52:47.000 --> 0:52:49.360 what Scripture says, but this is a really big issue. 0:52:50.480 --> 0:52:52.520 I know somebody outside of the church who will give 0:52:52.520 --> 0:52:54.680 you a biblical perspective on this, who's dealt with this 0:52:54.719 --> 0:52:57.040 a lot more than I have. I'm not passing you 0:52:57.120 --> 0:52:59.280 off to them, so that I cleared up my calendar. 0:52:59.520 --> 0:53:01.799 I'd actually like to walk alongside you as you talk 0:53:01.880 --> 0:53:03.200 with them through this, just because they have a little 0:53:03.200 --> 0:53:06.279 more experience in this specific issue than I do. But 0:53:06.360 --> 0:53:08.759 I can at least tell you what scripture says at 0:53:08.800 --> 0:53:10.799 a foundational level about what you're going through, and I 0:53:10.800 --> 0:53:16.520 can point you to Jesus in it. If that's not 0:53:16.600 --> 0:53:19.680 happening in churches, that's a problem. And again, that doesn't 0:53:19.719 --> 0:53:24.160 have to be me as the lead guy, if you know, Brad, 0:53:24.239 --> 0:53:26.880 one of our elders said, yeah, somebody one of our 0:53:26.920 --> 0:53:29.319 members reached out to us asked about this. I was 0:53:29.320 --> 0:53:31.520 giving them some counsel, and I'm thinking about connecting them 0:53:31.520 --> 0:53:34.439 with them. Amen, I would not be like, why didn't 0:53:34.440 --> 0:53:37.080 they come talk to me? Or oh, I'm so glad 0:53:37.080 --> 0:53:38.520 they went to you. I didn't have time for that 0:53:38.560 --> 0:53:40.640 this week. We tell our members all the time we 0:53:40.680 --> 0:53:43.440 will make time for our members because you are our 0:53:43.440 --> 0:53:47.960 primary responsibility, and so you need to know that you 0:53:48.000 --> 0:53:48.799 can reach out to us. 0:53:48.800 --> 0:53:50.000 It seems so logical. 0:53:50.680 --> 0:53:52.440 Yeah, I mean, well, again, it's what does the Bible 0:53:52.440 --> 0:53:54.040 say a pastor is, and what does the Bible say 0:53:54.080 --> 0:53:58.040 pastor does? Well does these things? And again, those like 0:54:00.120 --> 0:54:03.960 you know a communications pastor multimedia pastor, or sports pastor 0:54:03.960 --> 0:54:06.440 whatever it is. Again, those tend to be birthed out 0:54:06.440 --> 0:54:08.680 of circumstances. Well, we have a lot of people, so 0:54:08.719 --> 0:54:10.200 how do we make sure that they're cared for? 0:54:10.640 --> 0:54:11.359 Right? Right? 0:54:11.520 --> 0:54:13.600 So this is so some of the comments we're asking 0:54:13.600 --> 0:54:16.560 about church planting, and one of the comments even said, well, 0:54:16.560 --> 0:54:19.160 how's that different than just starting another service? Is very 0:54:19.200 --> 0:54:23.560 different than to starting another service, because planting a church 0:54:23.640 --> 0:54:27.279 is saying you all are responsible for y'all, not us. 0:54:28.200 --> 0:54:32.040 It's a misunderstanding of planning a camp another campus. 0:54:31.840 --> 0:54:34.400 Right, yeah, so I'm not talking about planning another campus too, 0:54:34.400 --> 0:54:37.600 different talking about planting an autonomous church with its own 0:54:37.680 --> 0:54:42.239 pastors who shepherd those people, and those people are responsible 0:54:42.280 --> 0:54:44.920 for them and they're now sharing the gospel and a community. 0:54:44.960 --> 0:54:47.719 Another misconception with church planting is that it assumes it 0:54:47.760 --> 0:54:51.080 has to be further away, so like, we can only 0:54:51.120 --> 0:54:54.319 plan a church if it's thirty plus minutes away from us. 0:54:55.040 --> 0:54:58.160 I think churches, many churches, should be more open to 0:54:58.160 --> 0:55:01.680 planning a church ten minutes from them if they're getting 0:55:01.680 --> 0:55:05.359 too big and they can't care for the members. Because again, 0:55:05.400 --> 0:55:08.640 if it's about building the Kingdom of God or highlighting 0:55:08.680 --> 0:55:11.279 the Kingdom of God. Then it doesn't matter if we 0:55:11.320 --> 0:55:14.480 have a thousand. Yeah, you know, it's just are we 0:55:14.520 --> 0:55:16.920 being faithful with the with those who have who've been 0:55:17.040 --> 0:55:20.200 entrusted to us by the Lord. And so we have 0:55:20.280 --> 0:55:23.120 to constantly ask ourselves as pastors, are we being faithful 0:55:23.160 --> 0:55:25.279 to the souls that the Lord has put under our care? 0:55:26.200 --> 0:55:29.279 Or are we sacrificing that for something else, whether it's 0:55:29.280 --> 0:55:32.200 building our name bigger, whether it's we want to be 0:55:32.239 --> 0:55:34.080 the biggest church in town. 0:55:34.719 --> 0:55:37.680 Well, I want to say, Kimbers one, two, three, eight, 0:55:37.719 --> 0:55:41.120 I love you. I'm so glad you you reached out 0:55:42.800 --> 0:55:44.239 and we only got to one. 0:55:45.200 --> 0:55:46.840 I mean some of them I think were answered in 0:55:46.840 --> 0:55:47.400 some of Okay. 0:55:47.560 --> 0:55:49.560 So if there needs to be a part three comment 0:55:49.640 --> 0:55:52.879 on this video with a new question or pushback, whatever 0:55:52.920 --> 0:55:56.960 you need to do, let me know. And all of 0:55:56.960 --> 0:55:59.520 this has done out of love and us just genuinely 0:55:59.560 --> 0:56:04.319 thinking through these things. These are ideas we should think through, 0:56:04.400 --> 0:56:06.319 and we should use the Bible as the foundation of 0:56:06.320 --> 0:56:10.040 how we think we could be deceived by our own 0:56:10.160 --> 0:56:15.480 emotions or experiences or thoughts. The way we interact with 0:56:15.520 --> 0:56:18.320 culture could all deceive us, so let's use the Bible 0:56:18.480 --> 0:56:21.400 as the foundation of our thinking. I've run out of 0:56:21.440 --> 0:56:26.720 time and so appreciate you. Appreciate you. Man. I'm laughing 0:56:26.760 --> 0:56:28.520 because we didn't have anything to talk about and we 0:56:28.600 --> 0:56:32.640 ended up talking for an hour. So if there needs 0:56:32.680 --> 0:56:34.319 to be a part three, let me know. But we'll 0:56:34.360 --> 0:56:38.719 continue regardless. We'll continue the discussion about what it looks 0:56:38.760 --> 0:56:42.359 like to have a good church. And that sounds bad. 0:56:42.400 --> 0:56:44.720 That sounds like we're claiming Amaas is the good church. 0:56:45.080 --> 0:56:46.160 We got a problems, we. 0:56:46.120 --> 0:56:49.920 Have our problems. We're just thinking through this with you 0:56:50.239 --> 0:56:52.960 out loud and using the Bible as the foundation. See 0:56:52.960 --> 0:56:55.759 you guys next Monday. Meg, thanks for joining me on 0:56:55.800 --> 0:56:59.080 the Grangersmith podcast. I appreciate all of you guys. You 0:56:59.080 --> 0:57:02.359 could help me out rating this podcast on iTunes. If 0:57:02.400 --> 0:57:05.680 you're on YouTube, subscribe to this channel, hit that little 0:57:05.840 --> 0:57:09.120 like button and notification spell so that you never miss 0:57:09.239 --> 0:57:12.200 anytime I upload a video. Yi