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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: The Smashing Pumpkins are having a revival of sorts. They're

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Speaker 2: in the middle of their Rats in a Cage tour

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Speaker 2: commemorating 30 years since the release of their album Melancholy

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Speaker 2: and Infinite Sadness. With no less than four singles, Zero,

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Speaker 2: Bullet With Butterfly Wings, Tonight Tonight, and 1979, Melancholy was

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Speaker 2: an absolute phenomenon when it was released. 30 years later

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Speaker 2: and Corgan and the Pumpkins are enjoying a true resurgence

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Speaker 2: of interest from young fans and A rededication from longtime fans,

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Speaker 2: and if not a full critical reassessment of the band's legacy,

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Speaker 2: at least an acceptance from critics that the Pumpkins are

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Speaker 2: a band we'll always have to contend with when discussing

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Speaker 2: the alternative music surge of the 1990s. As for Corrigan,

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Speaker 2: he's never sat patiently waiting for a new peak. Instead,

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Speaker 2: he's spent the last few decades exploring seemingly any interest,

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Speaker 2: owning the National Wrestling Alliance, NWA, also TNA. an outspoken

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Speaker 2: advocate for free speech through appearances on InfoWars, Joe Rogan,

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Speaker 2: and Bill Maher's show. He also has his own podcast,

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Speaker 2: The Magnus and Others, that's a part of Bill Maher's

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Speaker 2: Club Random podcast network. Here's Leah Rose speaking with Billy

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Speaker 2: Corgan just over a year ago at the onset of

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Speaker 2: this current Corgan Pumpkins revival.

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Speaker 3: So I was thinking about this. This is actually a

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Speaker 3: really exciting time to talk to you because I'm super

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Speaker 3: interested about your approach to your podcast and your It's

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Speaker 3: especially interesting for me because this is actually something I

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Speaker 3: can relate to. And, you know, I feel like when

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Speaker 3: I talk to musicians, I find what they do absolutely

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Speaker 3: extraordinary because I cannot do any of it. But this

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Speaker 3: I can sort of like, you know, sort of understand

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Speaker 3: how you might be feeling around these things. So I'm

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Speaker 3: really curious about your approach to interviewing because you've been

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Speaker 3: interviewed for over 30 years now. So when you decided

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Speaker 3: to take on this project, how did you approach it?

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Speaker 1: Well, I think the simplest version is I just try

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Speaker 1: to have the same type of conversation I would have

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Speaker 1: with somebody behind the scenes. And of course, you're aware

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Speaker 1: there's a camera, and of course, you're aware of the

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Speaker 1: concept of time. But I've seen in some comments, I

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Speaker 1: don't really read comments, but people will send me things

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Speaker 1: and you get a sense of what's happening. The people

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Speaker 1: who do like the format that the show is in

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Speaker 1: appreciate that it has a deeper dive sort of feel,

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Speaker 1: which I would point to. That's the kind of conversation

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Speaker 1: I would have with a Diane Warren. If we were

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Speaker 1: sitting privately somewhere, I would be asking the same types

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Speaker 1: of questions with the same type of kind of back

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Speaker 1: and forth thing for people who don't understand it. They

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Speaker 1: seem to be confused. that I'm just after what would

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Speaker 1: be called a normal interview format, where someone as erudite

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Speaker 1: as you asks me a question, I just bloviate on

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Speaker 1: for four minutes. And some people take the back-and-forth patois

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Speaker 1: of the thing as disrespect. It's the complete opposite. I

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Speaker 1: really feel that there's so much that gets lost in

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Speaker 1: the translation of conversation, because I've been interviewed for 35

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Speaker 1: years now, that I'm really after something that's almost... indefinable.

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Speaker 1: And that's not to say I'm better at it than

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Speaker 1: anybody else. In fact, I'm not very skilled at it

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Speaker 1: at all. But I have an intuitive sense of the

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Speaker 1: way an artist's mind works. Yes. Even if it's not mine.

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Speaker 1: And that's borne out over now over, I think, 25 interviews.

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Speaker 1: There's a commonality in the sense of an inner and

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Speaker 1: an outer experience. Most interviews, and it's no disrespect to

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Speaker 1: you or anybody else, they focus on the outer experience

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Speaker 1: because that's the thing that's readily apparent. It's sort of

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Speaker 1: in evidence. The inner life of an artist is oft

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Speaker 1: less explored, but is the thing that I find utterly fascinating.

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Speaker 1: For example, on this interview that I just did with

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Speaker 1: Diane Warren, and for people who don't know, one of

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Speaker 1: the greatest songwriters ever, nine number one hit songs, 33

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Speaker 1: top 10 songs, and the list of people who've recorded

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Speaker 1: her songs, I mean, is a who's who of the

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Speaker 1: greatest vocalists of all time. It's really a stunning set

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Speaker 1: of accomplishments. And yet, if you look at the interview record,

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Speaker 1: there's not a lot about this woman's interior life.

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Speaker 3: Yes. And her interior life is what's fueling her songwriting.

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Speaker 1: It's everything. Because she would tell you, as a personality

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Speaker 1: in the world, that there's nothing particularly remarkable about her.

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Speaker 1: I think utterly remarkable. But she even sort of downplays

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Speaker 1: who she is. But yet the evidence, which is in

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Speaker 1: plain sight, 1,500 songs and counting, and by the way,

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Speaker 1: no sign of letting up. Oh, no. She is pedal

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Speaker 1: to the metal as an artist in residence.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, give me even just a kernel of what

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Speaker 1: goes on in there that allows this diamond-mind... of your

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Speaker 1: spirit to continually produce works that are not only at

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Speaker 1: the top of their particular, particular field, but speak universally. Yes.

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Speaker 1: In a way that I've rarely approached as an artist.

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Speaker 1: That's fascinating. I could do 19 hours on that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it would bore the hell out of the audience and

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Speaker 1: it would probably bore the hell out of Diane. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: For me, this is, this is everything.

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Speaker 3: Do you think as an interviewer, I've heard Terry Gross

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Speaker 3: talk about this, that in every interview she does, she's

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Speaker 3: motivated by learning something new about herself. Do you find

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Speaker 3: that through these conversations, you're trying to learn about yourself?

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Speaker 3: Or are you truly trying to learn about that specific person,

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Speaker 3: the person in front of you's inner life and their,

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Speaker 3: you know, their creative process?

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Speaker 1: One of my great weaknesses is I like to be right.

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Speaker 1: It's probably my greatest weakness. So much of the interview

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Speaker 1: is me trying to confirm of whether my internal assumptions

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Speaker 1: about a set of things is accurate. But the charm there,

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Speaker 1: because I'm okay with being wrong, because in this case,

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Speaker 1: I have the subject right in front of me to

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Speaker 1: tell me, no, you're wrong. You got that totally wrong.

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Speaker 1: It's like, okay, great, because I really do want to know.

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Speaker 1: That is the supreme effort, is knowledge. If anybody knows Enneagrams,

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Speaker 1: I'm a five, and fives are all about collecting information.

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Speaker 1: That's how we feel safe in the world. So the

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Speaker 1: more I can kind of confirm my worldview, and in

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Speaker 1: this case with people of world-class talent and ability or

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Speaker 1: a life story, in a weird kind of way, it

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Speaker 1: confirms that my read on the world is actually fairly accurate.

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Speaker 1: And as an artist type, I've been told my whole

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Speaker 1: life that my perspective on the world is either wrong,

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Speaker 1: overly dramatic, overwrought, you know, just calm down and just

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Speaker 1: kind of get in line type of stuff. But I

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Speaker 1: think as has been borne out over the last 20

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Speaker 1: or 30 years with social media, that people's interior lives

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Speaker 1: are actually a lot more complex than we would have

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Speaker 1: previously thought in prior societies. I mean, there was always

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Speaker 1: indication of it. And of course, what people would read,

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Speaker 1: whether it would be Hemingway or Dickens or, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: Jane Austen or something. You know, there's obviously rich interior lives,

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Speaker 1: but now it lives on continual display. And so maybe

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Speaker 1: we're entering an age now and, you know, maybe it's

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Speaker 1: the age of Aquarius or something, but we're entering an

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Speaker 1: age now where maybe there's going to be more introspection

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Speaker 1: on people's actual internal lives or interior lives and how

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Speaker 1: they actually play into their behavior.

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Speaker 3: That would be nice.

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Speaker 1: I would hope because I would.

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Speaker 3: I'm skeptical, but that would be nice.

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Speaker 1: Well, God bless, but I would like to make the

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Speaker 1: simple argument that the more people's interior lives are readily

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Speaker 1: available to them, the less violent a planet we would

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Speaker 1: live on. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Have you had the experience yet of someone who cannot

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Speaker 3: be drawn out? Someone who doesn't know how to explain

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Speaker 3: their inner life? Someone who, I know a lot of

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Speaker 3: artists express their inner lives through their art. Have you had,

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Speaker 3: and you're very eloquent, and you're very eloquent about your

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Speaker 3: creative process. Have you sat across from someone who just

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Speaker 3: does not know how to explain it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's totally fine because at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, their perspective trumps mine. I'm really in

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Speaker 1: service to tell their story. And that's where people misunderstand

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Speaker 1: what I'm after. I asked a friend of mine who

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Speaker 1: knows me pretty well, do you think I'm talking too

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Speaker 1: much or you think I'm talking too much about myself?

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Speaker 1: And they said, no, no. That's how you are in life.

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Speaker 1: And what you do is you create kind of commonality.

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Speaker 1: And what you're doing is you're sharing because you're trying

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Speaker 1: to say, I think I understand is what I'm sharing

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Speaker 1: relate to what you're saying. That made me feel better

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Speaker 1: about it because at times it does feel to me

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Speaker 1: like I'm talking too much, but I'm really after this

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Speaker 1: interior life. Like I said, I find it utterly fascinating.

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Speaker 1: And let's use Diane Warren as an example. Diane says

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Speaker 1: in the interview, like, I don't really think about a

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Speaker 1: lot of the stuff that you're asking me. But there

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Speaker 1: were about two or three instances in the interview, which

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Speaker 1: is about an hour long, where she initially kind of

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Speaker 1: gives me an answer, which is, I don't really think

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Speaker 1: about that, or that's not really, I say something, and

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Speaker 1: then she goes, oh, and then she'll give me something

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Speaker 1: that wasn't previously there. To me, that's the Agape moment

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Speaker 1: of like, okay, that's exactly what I'm after. I'm not

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Speaker 1: asking somebody who doesn't really know me. In the case

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Speaker 1: of Diane, we had met before, but I'm not asking

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Speaker 1: someone to walk into a, studio and throw open the

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Speaker 1: door to everything. I think that's really unfair. But if

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Speaker 1: they're willing to just crack that door open a little

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Speaker 1: bit here and there, I think, I know I gain

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Speaker 1: such immense respect for artists that I already admire. Yes.

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Speaker 1: The ability to look and see that beautiful engine. And

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Speaker 1: I know not everybody believes in God, but as somebody

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Speaker 1: who does believe in God, I'm oftentimes taken with the

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Speaker 1: magisterial aspect of the human soul and how different every

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Speaker 1: soul on this planet is. And I would include that

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Speaker 1: even into our pets, which even feels like an unfair word.

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Speaker 1: In our house, we have three cats and a dog

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Speaker 1: and two fish. And if you spend any time with

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Speaker 1: animals in your home, of course, you see that they

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Speaker 1: have very different personalities. And they're hardwired in really unique ways.

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Speaker 1: People come to our house and they'll say, all your

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Speaker 1: cats are like dogs. You know, it's like, so where

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Speaker 1: does that come from? Anyway, I think you understand the

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Speaker 1: point I'm making. Totally.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was curious. So since in your past with press,

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Speaker 3: you sort of like fucked with media. In the beginning

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Speaker 3: of The Pumpkins, I've heard you say that it was

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Speaker 3: sort of a performance art project. And a lot of

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Speaker 3: times the band would make things up in interviews. I'm

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Speaker 3: curious where you stand about sort of like digging and

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Speaker 3: creating viral moments to help your show blow up. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's like a very easy thing. It's a cheap thing

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Speaker 3: that you could probably do like that. What's your take

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Speaker 3: on that?

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Speaker 1: I can think of about two or three instances where

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Speaker 1: I went down a particular road with an interview subject

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Speaker 1: on my show. And it was like, I played baseball

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Speaker 1: as a kid. It was like they threw me a

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Speaker 1: spinning curveball And all I had to do was hit it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And it was instant clickbait.

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Speaker 3: Can you tell us who?

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Speaker 1: I can't remember, honestly. It's just an internal feeling of like, oops,

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Speaker 1: there it is. And all I got to do is

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Speaker 1: ask the follow-up question or hit this spinning ball in

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Speaker 1: front of my face and there's a viral moment. And

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Speaker 1: it's like, in all three instances, I was like, nope,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to be on that type of show. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I don't want to do that to my guests.

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Speaker 1: I'm a firm believer in... And of course, the numbers

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Speaker 1: are still out on this, but I'm a firm believer

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Speaker 1: that we are capable of creating a new type of

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Speaker 1: dialogue in American culture. I know it won't be for

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Speaker 1: everybody because we're dealing with a mass of people who

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Speaker 1: are dopamine addicted. But I do believe there's a different

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Speaker 1: type of conversation that can be had. Obviously, it's the

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Speaker 1: 21st century version of it. But I remember being entranced

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Speaker 1: by conversations when I was a kid on PBS. where

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Speaker 1: they would just go on for hours about really wonky stuff.

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Speaker 1: But if you allow yourself to be drawn in, it's

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Speaker 1: this fecund atmosphere of like, wow, not everything is yes

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Speaker 1: or no, black or white, win-lose. And I think we

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Speaker 1: live in such a bifurcated society right now where that

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Speaker 1: tends to be the common metric. So-and-so won, so-and-so lost.

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Speaker 1: A moment that really stands out starkly in my mind

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Speaker 1: in American life was I watched one of the presidential

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Speaker 1: debates in the last 20 years. And they went to

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Speaker 1: the roundtable. I don't remember what network, but they went

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Speaker 1: to the roundtable afterwards. And they were talking about one

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Speaker 1: of the candidates' debate performances. And in the course of

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Speaker 1: the analysis, the person said, I knew they were lying

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Speaker 1: to me, but they did such a good job of lying,

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Speaker 1: and I'd have to say they did a great job tonight.

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Speaker 1: And I thought, there's a lightning bolt. I was like,

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Speaker 1: that's it. We live in a society now where you're

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Speaker 1: no longer punished for openly lying. You're rewarded for the

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Speaker 1: artifice of your capability to lie. And in a post-truth world,

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Speaker 1: and we've got tremendous artists who've created these avatars that are,

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Speaker 1: that are world-class avatars. I don't need to name the names.

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Speaker 1: Mostly they tend to reside in pop stars, but they've

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Speaker 1: created these world-class avatars that sell perfume and shoes and

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Speaker 1: dresses and albums and, and, uh, you know, uh, stadiums

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Speaker 1: full of people. But I also talk to a lot

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Speaker 1: of young kids who are really kind of almost stung

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Speaker 1: by it all. It's not even that they dislike the artist,

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Speaker 1: but they're almost saying to me, like, to quote the

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Speaker 1: Peggy Lee, is that all there is? Like, is me

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Speaker 1: as I am disqualify me from the thing that I

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Speaker 1: might want to become? And I went through a very

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Speaker 1: similar thing, and that goes back to us messing with

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Speaker 1: the media. I felt very early on, circa 1989, 90,

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Speaker 1: that who I was was not going to work. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That personality was being rejected. So I created an avatar

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Speaker 1: of myself, not to become more attractive, actually to become

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Speaker 1: more repulsive. I turned that avatar into a weapon. And

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Speaker 1: what's really sort of interesting is that 57 years old,

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Speaker 1: people are still convinced I'm the avatar, not the person.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The person is, I'm not saying I'm not a prickly pear,

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Speaker 1: but I'm a well-rounded human being. Whether it's family or

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Speaker 1: charity work and a tea house and a wrestling company,

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Speaker 1: there's other sides to me besides this rock couture. No

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Speaker 1: pun intended. But people are really in love with the

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Speaker 1: Avatar because it sells stuff, even if it's negative clicks. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Does the Avatar have anything to do with wrestling? I

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Speaker 3: always saw that as... you sort of adopting that same

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Speaker 3: wrestling entertainment ethos where it's just totally over the top,

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Speaker 3: it's shock value. Does it come from that at all?

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Speaker 1: It came later from that. From between, from the late

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Speaker 1: 80s up until the late 90s, I didn't consciously know

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Speaker 1: that that's what I was doing.

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Speaker 3: Got it.

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Speaker 1: And I was at a wrestling show one night and

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Speaker 1: I talked to a young man before the show who

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Speaker 1: was getting an opportunity and he was very nervous. And

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Speaker 1: I watched him go out and sort of in a

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Speaker 1: moment of fealty, I wanted to watch and see how

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Speaker 1: he did. And the crowd was mercilessly mean to him.

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Speaker 1: Booed and yelled and threw stuff. And so when he

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Speaker 1: came back to the curtain, my Piscean empathy was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I felt bad for him. And he walked through the curtain.

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Speaker 1: I said, how do you feel? He said, I feel great.

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Speaker 1: And I said, I don't understand. He said, I did

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Speaker 1: my job. They hated me. And it was like this

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Speaker 1: light bulb went off in my head. I said, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's what I do. I'm actually engendering a response. Because

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Speaker 1: I used to say, the opposite of love is not hate,

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Speaker 1: it's apathy.

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Speaker 3: But as someone who feels a lot, doesn't the hate

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Speaker 3: denigrate you? I mean, that's got to hurt your soul.

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Speaker 1: Totally toxic. Yeah. Totally empiric approach. I do not recommend

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Speaker 1: it for the faint of heart. But I made my point.

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Speaker 1: The problem is, is I've raised my hand in different

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Speaker 1: decades and say, okay, I'm done making my point. I

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Speaker 1: just want to go back to being Bill from Glendale Heights.

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Speaker 1: And they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're

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Speaker 1: in it now. You are this. And so at some

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Speaker 1: point you, you become your avatar. Yes. Want to be

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Speaker 1: or not. And I, I, I always start every sentence

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Speaker 1: involving that with I created it. It's my responsibility. I

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Speaker 1: know why I created it. I can blame the media

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Speaker 1: or I can blame the teacher in fourth grade, but

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Speaker 1: I did it. So I'm okay with that part of it,

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Speaker 1: but it does get toxic when you literally see, and we,

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Speaker 1: of course we live in a hyper politicized society. You

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Speaker 1: literally see where people cannot get out of the, like

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Speaker 1: no fact will change their opinion. There's no, you become

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Speaker 1: kind of part of something that's, that's almost inexplicable. It's

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Speaker 1: like they need someone to boo.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And once you're kind of in the heel section of

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Speaker 1: the booing, they don't want you to come out of

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Speaker 1: it because you're a really good heel. They need somebody

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Speaker 1: to be angry at or heat on. Like I told

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Speaker 1: Joe Rogan in this interview that we just did, you know,

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Speaker 1: about how at some point I felt like I was

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Speaker 1: being made to pay for the sins of the generational

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Speaker 1: figures that had left the planet. And he was like,

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Speaker 1: I don't really understand that. And I was like, I'm

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Speaker 1: expected to carry a flag for people who aren't even

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Speaker 1: here for this amorphous concept of Gen X.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Which, by the way, I didn't even agree with all

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Speaker 1: those values either. Yeah. And I said it at the time. Irrelevant.

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Speaker 1: It's like a judge out of a Pink Floyd movie. Irrelevant.

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Speaker 1: You were there. You were there. You were on MTV.

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Speaker 1: You carry this flag whether you want to or not.

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Speaker 1: You're like, they didn't even accept me. Oh, no, no.

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Speaker 3: Now I'm the spokesperson.

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Speaker 1: No, I mean, the classic example I always give is

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Speaker 1: the Pumpkins albums got horrible reviews in the decade. Now

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Speaker 1: they're all considered classics. But at the time, Melancholy, I

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Speaker 1: got two and a half stars in Rolling Stone. Wow.

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Speaker 3: What was the reason?

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Speaker 1: What was the argument? I said it was a piece

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Speaker 1: of shit. An overambitious piece of shit.

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Speaker 3: Overambitious.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a bad thing to be back then.

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Speaker 3: Yes. So speaking of Gen X, I thought it was

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Speaker 3: so interesting. And I saw you sort of have an

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Speaker 3: aha moment during your Tom Morello interview where he was

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Speaker 3: explaining his theory, why there was sort of a rejection

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Speaker 3: of fame during the 90s. And I saw it sort

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Speaker 3: of click for you. And I thought it was really interesting.

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Speaker 3: And I wanted to hear more from you about it.

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Speaker 3: But basically, he was saying, A lot of the artists

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Speaker 3: who ended up getting big in the 90s sort of

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Speaker 3: like came up worshiping two different camps of music. A

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Speaker 3: lot of them were like super into hardcore punk rock.

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Speaker 3: They were into like Bad Brains, Fugazi, Minor Threat. But

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Speaker 3: they were also into Sabbath and Judas Priest. And there's

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Speaker 3: sort of like a conflict in values. Is that something

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Speaker 3: that you and so when some of those artists like Rage,

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Speaker 3: like Nirvana, like Pearl Jam started to get super big,

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Speaker 3: they felt really guilty and horrible about it.

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Speaker 1: Yes. And I think Tom's point was then they projected

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Speaker 1: that discomfort out into the world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In my case, I didn't I wasn't uncomfortable with it.

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Speaker 1: I was uncomfortable with the projection from the alternative community,

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Speaker 1: particularly from snobs like Kim Gordon, that I was supposed

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Speaker 1: to behave a certain way because in the rules of

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Speaker 1: alternative music, you had to have a punk rock ethos, therefore,

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Speaker 1: or you did not belong. I mean, there is a

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Speaker 1: quote in Kim Gordon's book where she literally says, I

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Speaker 1: wasn't punk rocks. Like, what the fuck does that mean?

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Speaker 1: And by the way, Kim Gordon's father was a professor

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Speaker 1: in a university. That is an upper middle class position.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Kids who come from actual

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Speaker 1: sewers don't care about ethos. They care about survival. So

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Speaker 1: I had no problem with being successful. I had a

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Speaker 1: problem with people like that projecting on me their ethos

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Speaker 1: of like, it's okay to be ambitious as long as

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Speaker 1: you wear the right t-shirt. Which is all just complete

383
00:21:39,176 --> 00:21:44,836
Speaker 1: bullshit malarkey to quote Biden. It's a malarkey, total bullshit. Again,

384
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Speaker 1: there's that concept of ambition. I was too ambitious. Ambitious

385
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Speaker 1: for what? My future was working at a record store

386
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Speaker 1: or being on MTV. You choose. Being on MTV looked

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Speaker 1: a lot more attractive to me because it meant I

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Speaker 1: could do what I want to do and I could

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Speaker 1: go where I want to go. I didn't have a

390
00:22:05,266 --> 00:22:08,086
Speaker 1: professor father. My father was in a house in Chicago

391
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Speaker 1: dealing drugs and guns. So for me, it was survival.

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Speaker 1: It was like the choices were stark and simple. So

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Speaker 1: I agreed with Tom that that was definitely at the

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Speaker 1: heart of a lot of those things. But again, I

395
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Speaker 1: think those were in many cases put upon ethics that

396
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Speaker 1: I did not care for.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So when did you start talking about your your

398
00:22:33,806 --> 00:22:36,866
Speaker 3: early childhood, when did that come into your story? When

399
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Speaker 3: did you start making that public? Because that does sort

400
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Speaker 3: of change the way that maybe people perceive you.

401
00:22:44,276 --> 00:22:47,296
Speaker 1: Well, 93, when the Siamese Dream album came out, because

402
00:22:47,316 --> 00:22:50,076
Speaker 1: people wanted to understand the subtextual language, and then there

403
00:22:50,116 --> 00:22:53,126
Speaker 1: was this kind of rise of Latsky kids who suddenly

404
00:22:53,166 --> 00:22:56,586
Speaker 1: were interested in what I was saying. And part of

405
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Speaker 1: that lyrical change had a lot to do with Courtney,

406
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Speaker 1: because Courtney chided me for my hippie LSD-inspired lyrics on

407
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Speaker 1: our first album. And she said something, and I'm paraphrasing,

408
00:23:07,106 --> 00:23:10,586
Speaker 1: which went like, why can't the person I talk to

409
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Speaker 1: on the phone write the lyrics for the next record

410
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Speaker 1: or something? So I was like, okay, I'll take that

411
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Speaker 1: on as a challenge. But when I opened the door,

412
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Speaker 1: I found a lot of pain and a lot of

413
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Speaker 1: denial and a lot of stuff in there. And the

414
00:23:25,016 --> 00:23:27,316
Speaker 1: book The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron really helped me

415
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Speaker 1: to claim... this, this voice in there that was sort

416
00:23:32,676 --> 00:23:35,136
Speaker 1: of screaming to get out. But I was terrified because

417
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Speaker 1: I knew I would be attacked and dot, dot, dot.

418
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Speaker 1: I was including people, uh, accusing me of making up

419
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Speaker 1: my childhood. I would routinely be asked in interviews to

420
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Speaker 1: qualify my abuse, which is insane. Like on a scale

421
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Speaker 1: of one 10, how much were you beaten? You know,

422
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Speaker 1: it's like, what is it? Yeah, oh no, I'm not

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Speaker 1: even close to dramatizing them. I was asked at least

424
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Speaker 1: 40 or 50 times in the 90s to qualify my abuse.

425
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Speaker 3: Wow.

426
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Speaker 1: And I found a line eventually which kind of worked,

427
00:24:10,936 --> 00:24:14,696
Speaker 1: which was like, am I in the abuse Olympics? Like,

428
00:24:14,716 --> 00:24:19,006
Speaker 1: do I have to qualify to have agency to talk

429
00:24:19,046 --> 00:24:23,826
Speaker 1: about being abused? Meanwhile, behind the scenes, I was being...

430
00:24:24,296 --> 00:24:27,846
Speaker 1: poked on by my family for talking about the family secrets.

431
00:24:28,526 --> 00:24:29,046
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.

432
00:24:29,626 --> 00:24:33,146
Speaker 1: So I was getting it from both ways. On one hand,

433
00:24:33,206 --> 00:24:36,746
Speaker 1: I wasn't authentic enough, and the other side, the family side,

434
00:24:36,786 --> 00:24:38,826
Speaker 1: they were mad for me talking about what had happened,

435
00:24:39,146 --> 00:24:41,906
Speaker 1: because you don't talk about that stuff in public. Yeah.

436
00:24:43,286 --> 00:24:48,156
Speaker 3: From an artist's perspective, the way that you started writing lyrics,

437
00:24:48,436 --> 00:24:52,236
Speaker 3: where I imagine when you start out, it's common to

438
00:24:52,276 --> 00:24:55,216
Speaker 3: take on a character, right? And then you hear someone

439
00:24:55,256 --> 00:24:57,856
Speaker 3: like Courtney say, look, I want you to write from

440
00:24:57,896 --> 00:25:01,236
Speaker 3: your heart. I want you to write from you. That

441
00:25:01,276 --> 00:25:05,576
Speaker 3: seems like a really, really big jump. How long did

442
00:25:05,596 --> 00:25:08,456
Speaker 3: that actually take? And how long was that process? How

443
00:25:08,476 --> 00:25:10,036
Speaker 3: many albums did that last?

444
00:25:11,146 --> 00:25:14,806
Speaker 1: Well, it strangely coincided with the need for us to

445
00:25:14,846 --> 00:25:19,566
Speaker 1: make a successful record. I'm the type of person where

446
00:25:19,806 --> 00:25:23,856
Speaker 1: I couldn't stand being successful if I wasn't authentic. which

447
00:25:23,876 --> 00:25:28,376
Speaker 1: sounds strange because we're talking about avatars, but most fans

448
00:25:28,436 --> 00:25:30,706
Speaker 1: of my work know that the voice in the music

449
00:25:30,756 --> 00:25:34,246
Speaker 1: is very authentic. All the character stuff all around is

450
00:25:34,266 --> 00:25:36,926
Speaker 1: a bunch of smoke, but the, but the voice singing

451
00:25:36,966 --> 00:25:41,146
Speaker 1: is pretty, pretty on point. So yeah, with like, okay,

452
00:25:41,306 --> 00:25:43,406
Speaker 1: you've got to make a really successful record. You've got

453
00:25:43,426 --> 00:25:45,526
Speaker 1: to live up to the success of these new grunge bands,

454
00:25:45,546 --> 00:25:48,666
Speaker 1: which have sort of exploded on the world scene. It's

455
00:25:48,686 --> 00:25:51,066
Speaker 1: your major label debut. Oh, by the way, you have

456
00:25:51,086 --> 00:25:53,606
Speaker 1: to write pop songs, which go on the radio. somehow

457
00:25:53,646 --> 00:25:55,786
Speaker 1: put all those pieces together and get back to me later.

458
00:25:56,706 --> 00:26:00,166
Speaker 1: The only thing I found that resonated deeply with me

459
00:26:00,206 --> 00:26:02,846
Speaker 1: that I was willing to kind of die for was,

460
00:26:03,006 --> 00:26:05,936
Speaker 1: was to speak with an authentic voice. And it went

461
00:26:06,096 --> 00:26:08,136
Speaker 1: on for about eight months where I just, you know,

462
00:26:08,156 --> 00:26:11,876
Speaker 1: would you, I'm painting an analogy, but you know, you

463
00:26:11,896 --> 00:26:13,876
Speaker 1: put pen to paper and you're just too afraid to

464
00:26:13,936 --> 00:26:16,496
Speaker 1: write what you want to say. That went on for

465
00:26:16,536 --> 00:26:20,386
Speaker 1: eight months, almost killed myself repeatedly, ended up living in

466
00:26:20,406 --> 00:26:23,746
Speaker 1: a parking garage. I mean, it was a very, haunting time.

467
00:26:24,726 --> 00:26:26,986
Speaker 1: It sounds kind of strangely dramatic in hindsight, but at

468
00:26:27,026 --> 00:26:31,386
Speaker 1: the time it was like, it was very harrowing and

469
00:26:31,406 --> 00:26:33,626
Speaker 1: I was sober. Most of it too. I was not,

470
00:26:34,366 --> 00:26:36,246
Speaker 1: I mean, I was, I was dealing with it full,

471
00:26:36,956 --> 00:26:37,876
Speaker 1: full frontal.

472
00:26:38,136 --> 00:26:38,496
Speaker 2: Yeah.

473
00:26:38,676 --> 00:26:42,756
Speaker 1: And, and, um, I reached a point where I'd made

474
00:26:42,796 --> 00:26:44,876
Speaker 1: up my mind that I couldn't deal with the pressure anymore.

475
00:26:44,896 --> 00:26:46,536
Speaker 1: I was going to kill myself. So I started giving

476
00:26:46,576 --> 00:26:49,426
Speaker 1: everything away. I started doing all the things you're not

477
00:26:49,446 --> 00:26:53,336
Speaker 1: supposed to do. Uh, I started planning my own suicide.

478
00:26:53,436 --> 00:26:55,996
Speaker 1: I started envisioning what people would look like standing around

479
00:26:56,036 --> 00:26:59,876
Speaker 1: my casket. I went through the whole mental ideation and

480
00:26:59,916 --> 00:27:01,816
Speaker 1: I got to the point where I made up my mind, okay,

481
00:27:01,856 --> 00:27:04,536
Speaker 1: I'm going to kill myself on Friday. And I set

482
00:27:04,556 --> 00:27:07,006
Speaker 1: the date and I counted the days down, four, three, two, one.

483
00:27:07,486 --> 00:27:10,486
Speaker 1: And I got up the day where I was going

484
00:27:10,506 --> 00:27:13,406
Speaker 1: to kill myself and I was like, I really don't

485
00:27:13,426 --> 00:27:15,046
Speaker 1: want to kill myself, but I kind of made up

486
00:27:15,066 --> 00:27:18,266
Speaker 1: my mind to do this. And something broke in me

487
00:27:18,286 --> 00:27:22,056
Speaker 1: and I I'm not making this part up. I literally

488
00:27:22,076 --> 00:27:25,016
Speaker 1: was like, well, if you're not going to kill yourself,

489
00:27:25,056 --> 00:27:28,036
Speaker 1: then you need to be honest. And within the next

490
00:27:28,036 --> 00:27:30,996
Speaker 1: 24 to 48 hours, I wrote two of the most

491
00:27:31,056 --> 00:27:34,026
Speaker 1: famous songs that we ever had, which was Today and Disarm.

492
00:27:34,826 --> 00:27:40,446
Speaker 1: And out came tumbling this unafraid voice. It was pretty shocking.

493
00:27:41,826 --> 00:27:44,906
Speaker 1: And I still can't even explain it to this day.

494
00:27:45,046 --> 00:27:47,866
Speaker 1: It was like the door finally broke and I was like, okay,

495
00:27:47,886 --> 00:27:48,846
Speaker 1: I'm just going to be me.

496
00:27:49,446 --> 00:27:50,746
Speaker 3: What do you attribute that to?

497
00:27:50,766 --> 00:27:55,186
Speaker 1: I think it's like if you face your greatest fear,

498
00:27:55,306 --> 00:27:56,886
Speaker 1: you become kind of unafraid.

499
00:27:57,926 --> 00:27:58,846
Speaker 3: Yeah.

500
00:28:00,636 --> 00:28:02,936
Speaker 1: I'm not being artful in how I'm explaining it, but

501
00:28:02,976 --> 00:28:06,516
Speaker 1: it's like you've kind of faced it down. Yeah. You've

502
00:28:06,536 --> 00:28:08,956
Speaker 1: faced the final boss at the level or something, you know?

503
00:28:09,936 --> 00:28:12,326
Speaker 1: And what I would say, and I'm not a person

504
00:28:12,346 --> 00:28:14,566
Speaker 1: to ask for public empathy, but I will say for

505
00:28:14,586 --> 00:28:17,106
Speaker 1: the point of illustration, if anybody knows anything about me,

506
00:28:17,746 --> 00:28:21,396
Speaker 1: That has been a calamitous decision. Being myself in public

507
00:28:21,416 --> 00:28:26,076
Speaker 1: has not been a joy ride. It's been a very complicated,

508
00:28:26,776 --> 00:28:31,696
Speaker 1: oftentimes confusing to me, way to go through business. But

509
00:28:33,196 --> 00:28:36,156
Speaker 1: as an artist, I'm fine to stand by it because

510
00:28:36,196 --> 00:28:38,736
Speaker 1: the work is there. What it's done to my life,

511
00:28:38,776 --> 00:28:41,086
Speaker 1: what it's done to my personal relationships, what it's done

512
00:28:41,106 --> 00:28:46,466
Speaker 1: to the band, that's all for books and wonderful podcasts

513
00:28:46,506 --> 00:28:49,906
Speaker 1: like yours. But But I stand by the artistic version

514
00:28:49,946 --> 00:28:52,226
Speaker 1: of it because I don't know any other way. That's

515
00:28:52,706 --> 00:28:56,796
Speaker 1: all I know. And that's without training. Again, not asking

516
00:28:56,856 --> 00:29:01,036
Speaker 1: for anything. Just illustrate the point. I didn't go to college.

517
00:29:01,176 --> 00:29:04,936
Speaker 1: I had no artistic training. I had no mentor. I

518
00:29:04,976 --> 00:29:07,296
Speaker 1: had nobody to sit me down and say, this is

519
00:29:07,316 --> 00:29:09,196
Speaker 1: how you write a song. This is how you play guitar.

520
00:29:09,236 --> 00:29:12,266
Speaker 1: I had none of that. Everything is completely self-taught. And

521
00:29:13,106 --> 00:29:16,406
Speaker 1: If I'm a suicidal personality in terms of how I

522
00:29:16,706 --> 00:29:19,686
Speaker 1: attack the public sphere, well, I think you can understand

523
00:29:19,746 --> 00:29:21,906
Speaker 1: where the root of that comes from because that's the

524
00:29:21,946 --> 00:29:23,786
Speaker 1: way I did it and that's the way I broke through.

525
00:29:24,126 --> 00:29:26,976
Speaker 1: So why wouldn't I keep doing it? Because I don't

526
00:29:27,066 --> 00:29:28,716
Speaker 1: know any other way. Yeah.

527
00:29:29,396 --> 00:29:31,456
Speaker 3: Have you had any other moments in your life that

528
00:29:31,496 --> 00:29:34,816
Speaker 3: were that rock bottom? Oh, yeah.

529
00:29:35,256 --> 00:29:38,756
Speaker 1: Yeah. Early 2000s, there were some periods that were really,

530
00:29:38,796 --> 00:29:39,336
Speaker 1: really rough.

531
00:29:40,116 --> 00:29:40,496
Speaker 3: Yeah.

532
00:29:41,536 --> 00:29:44,176
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I... That's why I've been willing to

533
00:29:44,236 --> 00:29:48,566
Speaker 1: talk publicly about, I guess you would call it suicide prevention. Yeah.

534
00:29:49,116 --> 00:29:52,196
Speaker 1: Many private conversations with people who are going through it,

535
00:29:52,896 --> 00:29:56,016
Speaker 1: because I understand that once you're in it, it's like, yeah,

536
00:29:57,056 --> 00:29:58,696
Speaker 1: it's like one of those Star Trek things where they

537
00:29:58,736 --> 00:30:00,816
Speaker 1: lock on the ship and the ship gets cold in

538
00:30:00,836 --> 00:30:03,466
Speaker 1: and there's nothing you can do. You know, that's how

539
00:30:03,516 --> 00:30:06,086
Speaker 1: it felt to me. Like I just couldn't escape the gravity,

540
00:30:06,306 --> 00:30:10,346
Speaker 1: but I did. And I did multiple times. And I

541
00:30:10,376 --> 00:30:13,136
Speaker 1: don't wear like a badge of pride. I'm almost kind

542
00:30:13,176 --> 00:30:15,076
Speaker 1: of ashamed that I had to get to that point.

543
00:30:15,376 --> 00:30:18,256
Speaker 1: But I can also talk proudly that I was able

544
00:30:18,276 --> 00:30:22,816
Speaker 1: to do something with it. Alchemically, like lead into gold stuff.

545
00:30:24,146 --> 00:30:26,946
Speaker 3: So around the year 2000, that would be the Machina album,

546
00:30:27,406 --> 00:30:31,906
Speaker 3: which just turned 25 in February. So about a month ago.

547
00:30:32,006 --> 00:30:34,686
Speaker 3: So is that a period? I know that was a

548
00:30:34,726 --> 00:30:37,926
Speaker 3: really hard period for the band. How do you think

549
00:30:38,026 --> 00:30:41,666
Speaker 3: about that period now that you have some distance?

550
00:30:43,906 --> 00:30:49,546
Speaker 1: Well, you know, when Jimmy Cameron left the Pumpkins in

551
00:30:49,546 --> 00:30:53,046
Speaker 1: 96 and my mother died, I made the decision to

552
00:30:53,086 --> 00:30:56,326
Speaker 1: record the Adore album, which was basically career suicide. And

553
00:30:56,636 --> 00:30:58,476
Speaker 1: I was told at the time it was career suicide,

554
00:30:58,536 --> 00:31:01,816
Speaker 1: and I persisted. And it basically was career suicide. Now

555
00:31:01,876 --> 00:31:06,286
Speaker 1: it's considered a really... really a warmly thought of record.

556
00:31:06,566 --> 00:31:09,886
Speaker 1: Machina was the response to the negativity around a door.

557
00:31:10,026 --> 00:31:12,606
Speaker 1: It was like, we have one more record on our

558
00:31:12,666 --> 00:31:16,456
Speaker 1: album contract. We signed it together. Let's reform as four

559
00:31:16,476 --> 00:31:20,176
Speaker 1: and let's just kind of do a record, give our

560
00:31:20,196 --> 00:31:22,416
Speaker 1: best college effort like the Beatles did, make one more

561
00:31:22,456 --> 00:31:25,936
Speaker 1: record and go out on a fiery ball of glory.

562
00:31:26,356 --> 00:31:28,356
Speaker 1: And it didn't work out that way. We didn't make

563
00:31:28,376 --> 00:31:32,486
Speaker 1: it through the entire period without our bassist Darcy leaving.

564
00:31:33,186 --> 00:31:36,646
Speaker 1: And then, you know, there were a multitude of problems

565
00:31:36,706 --> 00:31:39,146
Speaker 1: in making the record and in also promoting the record,

566
00:31:39,166 --> 00:31:43,566
Speaker 1: including the record company completely abandoning us. But the funny

567
00:31:43,606 --> 00:31:46,126
Speaker 1: part was, towards the end of it, I announced that

568
00:31:46,146 --> 00:31:47,716
Speaker 1: the band was going to break up, which was always

569
00:31:47,746 --> 00:31:51,356
Speaker 1: part of the plan. We threw on the internet in

570
00:31:51,376 --> 00:31:54,736
Speaker 1: a moment of, I guess, I was just kind of

571
00:31:54,796 --> 00:31:57,356
Speaker 1: pissed off at the record company. I threw out another record,

572
00:31:57,436 --> 00:32:00,396
Speaker 1: which is commonly known as Machina 2. Yeah, for free.

573
00:32:00,436 --> 00:32:03,936
Speaker 1: Friends of Netflix. Friends and enemies of modern music. And

574
00:32:03,976 --> 00:32:07,426
Speaker 1: the fans love that record. I went back to the

575
00:32:07,486 --> 00:32:09,566
Speaker 1: record company and I said, you know, I know this

576
00:32:09,586 --> 00:32:11,906
Speaker 1: sounds crazy and I know we're leaving, but fans really

577
00:32:11,946 --> 00:32:14,086
Speaker 1: like this record. Why don't we put the two records

578
00:32:14,146 --> 00:32:18,166
Speaker 1: together as an intact unit and put it back on

579
00:32:18,206 --> 00:32:19,916
Speaker 1: the market? And I think you'll get your money back

580
00:32:19,956 --> 00:32:21,296
Speaker 1: and we'll be in a good place. And they told

581
00:32:21,316 --> 00:32:25,956
Speaker 1: me to fuck off. But they asked for CD copies

582
00:32:26,016 --> 00:32:29,656
Speaker 1: that they could hand out. So they still help market

583
00:32:29,756 --> 00:32:33,196
Speaker 1: Machina 2 behind the scenes, but they wanted nothing to

584
00:32:33,236 --> 00:32:36,916
Speaker 1: do with it publicly or commercially. So when I made

585
00:32:36,976 --> 00:32:41,076
Speaker 1: the reissue deal with what was then EMI Records, now

586
00:32:41,656 --> 00:32:44,856
Speaker 1: our catalog is absorbed into Universal. But at the time

587
00:32:44,896 --> 00:32:47,206
Speaker 1: I made a deal, I said, because they wanted all

588
00:32:47,236 --> 00:32:50,106
Speaker 1: the albums reissued with box sets. I said, I only

589
00:32:50,146 --> 00:32:52,306
Speaker 1: make this deal if I'm allowed to put Machina 1

590
00:32:52,306 --> 00:32:55,886
Speaker 1: and Machina 2 together and into an intact unit. So

591
00:32:56,406 --> 00:32:57,386
Speaker 1: we're prepping that now.

592
00:32:57,956 --> 00:32:58,396
Speaker 2: Oh, nice.

593
00:32:59,136 --> 00:33:02,516
Speaker 1: And so Machina 1 and Machina 2 will be reunited

594
00:33:03,016 --> 00:33:08,396
Speaker 1: as they were written into one crazy... It's somewhere in

595
00:33:08,436 --> 00:33:12,696
Speaker 1: the neighborhood of 50 songs. Wow. It's like a Wagner...

596
00:33:13,236 --> 00:33:16,356
Speaker 1: Box set. No, it's like a Wagner song cycle or something.

597
00:33:16,396 --> 00:33:19,616
Speaker 1: It's like the ring cycle. It goes on forever, but

598
00:33:19,796 --> 00:33:23,096
Speaker 1: it really is the story of a band disintegrating. And

599
00:33:23,256 --> 00:33:28,886
Speaker 1: by extension, my personality disintegrating into some sort of spiritual... uh,

600
00:33:29,326 --> 00:33:33,446
Speaker 1: being trundles on post 2000. So it's hard to talk

601
00:33:33,466 --> 00:33:35,786
Speaker 1: about that period, but contextually, I think to your question,

602
00:33:36,326 --> 00:33:38,406
Speaker 1: I look back on it more fondly now than I

603
00:33:38,426 --> 00:33:39,126
Speaker 1: did at the time.

604
00:33:40,866 --> 00:33:42,726
Speaker 3: Have you thought about selling the catalog?

605
00:33:44,066 --> 00:33:46,256
Speaker 1: Uh, I've been approached many times and I've said no

606
00:33:46,316 --> 00:33:46,756
Speaker 1: every time.

607
00:33:47,996 --> 00:33:49,816
Speaker 3: Do you think it'll ever come to a point where

608
00:33:49,856 --> 00:33:50,276
Speaker 3: you will?

609
00:33:51,116 --> 00:33:54,476
Speaker 1: I don't know. Um, my lawyer, whose name I will

610
00:33:54,736 --> 00:33:56,656
Speaker 1: leave out of this for his, his own, his own

611
00:33:56,716 --> 00:33:59,286
Speaker 1: sense of sanity, but, um, He's one of the top

612
00:33:59,306 --> 00:34:02,606
Speaker 1: catalog guys in the world. Wow. So I'm lucky in

613
00:34:02,646 --> 00:34:06,586
Speaker 1: that my guy knows the business. So when we first

614
00:34:06,606 --> 00:34:09,776
Speaker 1: sat together with the idea that we were going to

615
00:34:09,796 --> 00:34:13,596
Speaker 1: work together, and he's a huge fan from way back.

616
00:34:14,036 --> 00:34:16,496
Speaker 1: He talks about buying Siamese Dream the day it came out.

617
00:34:17,036 --> 00:34:20,516
Speaker 1: So he's a convert. He believes in what I do.

618
00:34:21,656 --> 00:34:23,606
Speaker 1: So the first time that we really sat down to

619
00:34:23,646 --> 00:34:25,666
Speaker 1: have a conversation about, okay, we're going to work together.

620
00:34:25,706 --> 00:34:28,036
Speaker 1: What does this really mean? The first question out of

621
00:34:28,076 --> 00:34:30,796
Speaker 1: his mouth was, do you want to sell your catalog?

622
00:34:32,996 --> 00:34:35,436
Speaker 1: And he was asking more strategically than to encourage me

623
00:34:35,456 --> 00:34:38,676
Speaker 1: to do that. And I said, no. And he said, why?

624
00:34:38,716 --> 00:34:42,736
Speaker 1: And I said, because it's undervalued. He said, I completely agree.

625
00:34:43,856 --> 00:34:49,306
Speaker 1: So until the catalog is at its true value, it's

626
00:34:49,386 --> 00:34:53,546
Speaker 1: not even worth entertaining. It would be very, very, very

627
00:34:53,606 --> 00:34:58,236
Speaker 1: hard for me to sell my catalog. Yeah. I hear

628
00:34:58,256 --> 00:35:02,006
Speaker 1: all the arguments and there's fiscal arguments and there's, hey,

629
00:35:02,046 --> 00:35:05,646
Speaker 1: there's still your songs, you know, but for me, this

630
00:35:05,686 --> 00:35:08,826
Speaker 1: has been my ticket to sanity. So I have an

631
00:35:09,146 --> 00:35:14,006
Speaker 1: incredibly close emotional attachment. And as I like to say,

632
00:35:14,266 --> 00:35:16,786
Speaker 1: for the 30 that people like to listen to, and

633
00:35:16,826 --> 00:35:19,506
Speaker 1: I'm blessed to even have that many, there's still another

634
00:35:19,506 --> 00:35:22,416
Speaker 1: 370 sitting there that don't really get listened to much.

635
00:35:22,476 --> 00:35:26,196
Speaker 1: So I'm more on the Irving Berlin, Diane Warren tip,

636
00:35:26,256 --> 00:35:28,456
Speaker 1: which is you're going to hear all my songs eventually,

637
00:35:28,576 --> 00:35:30,176
Speaker 1: and I'm going to do what I got to do.

638
00:35:30,656 --> 00:35:33,436
Speaker 1: So handing them over to somebody and figuring that they're

639
00:35:33,456 --> 00:35:35,416
Speaker 1: going to take care of my other children in this

640
00:35:36,396 --> 00:35:38,586
Speaker 1: euphemistic case is hard for me to believe.

641
00:35:38,926 --> 00:35:41,966
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting how now it's totally acceptable. People don't

642
00:35:42,026 --> 00:35:46,186
Speaker 3: bat an eye when they hear, you know, so-and-so institutional

643
00:35:46,286 --> 00:35:49,506
Speaker 3: artist sold their catalog. It's just sort of, you know, okay.

644
00:35:50,776 --> 00:35:54,376
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't ascribe anything to those things because everybody

645
00:35:54,416 --> 00:35:56,496
Speaker 1: should make decisions based on what's best for them and

646
00:35:56,516 --> 00:35:59,236
Speaker 1: their family. But it's hard sometimes when you see people

647
00:35:59,296 --> 00:36:01,866
Speaker 1: you truly respect and have always been held up as

648
00:36:01,926 --> 00:36:04,646
Speaker 1: paragons of virtue or independence.

649
00:36:04,926 --> 00:36:05,166
Speaker 3: Yes.

650
00:36:05,826 --> 00:36:08,086
Speaker 1: Kind of quote unquote sell out to the man. And

651
00:36:08,206 --> 00:36:09,926
Speaker 1: there may come a day where I too will sell

652
00:36:09,966 --> 00:36:12,436
Speaker 1: out to the man. But let me add one other thing.

653
00:36:12,516 --> 00:36:14,976
Speaker 1: And I have thrown this out there and people always

654
00:36:15,016 --> 00:36:17,536
Speaker 1: look at me with this really puzzled look. And then

655
00:36:17,556 --> 00:36:21,526
Speaker 1: they realize that I'm serious. both my children have some

656
00:36:21,706 --> 00:36:24,466
Speaker 1: musical ability, but I would never push them into, into

657
00:36:24,526 --> 00:36:27,306
Speaker 1: music if they didn't want it. There's no, there's no, uh,

658
00:36:28,346 --> 00:36:31,586
Speaker 1: this isn't the Brady Bunch or something. Right. But, but

659
00:36:32,386 --> 00:36:36,356
Speaker 1: I do not rule out that, that the brand of

660
00:36:36,436 --> 00:36:41,496
Speaker 1: the Smashing Pumpkins will continue, not just past me, but

661
00:36:41,616 --> 00:36:43,756
Speaker 1: it will, it would continue because it's set up as

662
00:36:43,776 --> 00:36:47,086
Speaker 1: an artistic institution that, I see it as being completely

663
00:36:47,126 --> 00:36:49,686
Speaker 1: possible that my children would take over the Smashing Pumpkins

664
00:36:49,746 --> 00:36:52,326
Speaker 1: at one point, but play their own songs and not

665
00:36:52,386 --> 00:36:57,146
Speaker 1: even necessarily play mine. It's like being in the Flying

666
00:36:57,186 --> 00:36:58,206
Speaker 1: Walendas or something.

667
00:36:58,446 --> 00:36:58,666
Speaker 2: Yeah.

668
00:36:59,426 --> 00:37:02,306
Speaker 1: It's not a Hank Williams Jr. situation where he had

669
00:37:02,326 --> 00:37:04,816
Speaker 1: to play his father's songs. Right. I could see a

670
00:37:04,836 --> 00:37:06,876
Speaker 1: scenario where my children would take over the brand, but

671
00:37:06,936 --> 00:37:08,896
Speaker 1: not even feel the need to play my music.

672
00:37:10,336 --> 00:37:12,796
Speaker 3: Are you careful that you're not putting pressure on them?

673
00:37:12,816 --> 00:37:14,316
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, very much so.

674
00:37:14,556 --> 00:37:14,796
Speaker 3: Yeah.

675
00:37:16,066 --> 00:37:20,046
Speaker 1: My son, totally on his own, has asked for a guitar,

676
00:37:20,066 --> 00:37:24,796
Speaker 1: a ukulele, and a bass. And he plays the ukulele

677
00:37:24,836 --> 00:37:28,616
Speaker 1: pretty well for a kid who doesn't practice much. And

678
00:37:28,756 --> 00:37:32,836
Speaker 1: my daughter has found some program where you sing along

679
00:37:32,856 --> 00:37:34,996
Speaker 1: to songs and it analyzes your pitch.

680
00:37:35,236 --> 00:37:35,596
Speaker 3: Oh, wow.

681
00:37:36,096 --> 00:37:38,676
Speaker 1: She's only six years old. So the other day, my

682
00:37:38,716 --> 00:37:40,276
Speaker 1: wife sent me a clip of my daughter in bed

683
00:37:40,316 --> 00:37:45,736
Speaker 1: singing Sweet Dreams by The Eurythmics. Aww. So... Both of

684
00:37:45,756 --> 00:37:46,516
Speaker 1: them show interest.

685
00:37:46,536 --> 00:37:47,356
Speaker 3: Little Annie Lennox.

686
00:37:48,116 --> 00:37:51,156
Speaker 1: Sure, but I would never push them into it because

687
00:37:51,796 --> 00:37:54,316
Speaker 1: the one thing my father said that did resonate over

688
00:37:54,356 --> 00:37:56,046
Speaker 1: time was he didn't want me to go in the

689
00:37:56,086 --> 00:37:58,786
Speaker 1: music business because in his estimation, it was a shit business.

690
00:37:59,926 --> 00:38:03,386
Speaker 1: So I understand what he means. Was he wrong? No,

691
00:38:03,426 --> 00:38:04,126
Speaker 1: it's a shit business.

692
00:38:04,206 --> 00:38:04,466
Speaker 3: Yeah.

693
00:38:06,906 --> 00:38:09,976
Speaker 1: No, but I've said publicly, and I'll say it to you,

694
00:38:10,506 --> 00:38:15,866
Speaker 1: it's a rapacious business. It still is anti-artist. which is

695
00:38:15,906 --> 00:38:22,156
Speaker 1: believable after 100 years of business. It's still wholly anti-artist.

696
00:38:24,876 --> 00:38:27,836
Speaker 1: Which is why you still see those contentious types of

697
00:38:27,876 --> 00:38:32,076
Speaker 1: relationships between artists and labels or artists and their handlers.

698
00:38:33,796 --> 00:38:35,836
Speaker 1: If you really get behind the scenes and you talk

699
00:38:35,856 --> 00:38:38,356
Speaker 1: to people who truly run the music business, they'll tell

700
00:38:38,416 --> 00:38:40,586
Speaker 1: you that they're, and I think it's a bit of

701
00:38:41,806 --> 00:38:44,446
Speaker 1: a rationalization, but they'll tell you that part of their

702
00:38:44,506 --> 00:38:48,966
Speaker 1: logic is, artists don't last. Most artists are lucky to

703
00:38:48,986 --> 00:38:52,816
Speaker 1: have three or four years. So they're oriented around a concept,

704
00:38:53,416 --> 00:38:56,016
Speaker 1: which is, I don't really have to worry about your

705
00:38:56,056 --> 00:38:57,496
Speaker 1: future because it's not my future.

706
00:38:57,876 --> 00:38:58,056
Speaker 2: Right.

707
00:38:59,356 --> 00:39:03,496
Speaker 1: I find that completely shocking. Because if you have a

708
00:39:03,516 --> 00:39:09,506
Speaker 1: Billie Eilish or, you know, a Bob Marley, I don't

709
00:39:09,566 --> 00:39:12,466
Speaker 1: know how you don't go, my goodness, this is such

710
00:39:12,526 --> 00:39:16,426
Speaker 1: a rare flower. Yeah. We really got to do everything

711
00:39:16,546 --> 00:39:21,066
Speaker 1: in our power to nurture and let this artist fly

712
00:39:21,146 --> 00:39:24,006
Speaker 1: with the biggest wings possible. Because, by the way, make

713
00:39:24,046 --> 00:39:27,736
Speaker 1: more money. They go into this other mode, which is like, oh,

714
00:39:28,206 --> 00:39:29,986
Speaker 1: we better be careful. We're going to lose control.

715
00:39:30,686 --> 00:39:33,996
Speaker 3: Yeah. I thought it was really interesting, your conversation with

716
00:39:34,006 --> 00:39:38,376
Speaker 3: Sharon Osbourne on your podcast, because she has been in

717
00:39:38,416 --> 00:39:43,036
Speaker 3: the music industry. industry since she started working with her dad,

718
00:39:43,296 --> 00:39:46,496
Speaker 3: officially working with her dad when she was 15. And

719
00:39:46,596 --> 00:39:50,896
Speaker 3: back then, the music industry was so much more upfront

720
00:39:51,136 --> 00:39:57,036
Speaker 3: about just being ruthless and There were no protections in

721
00:39:57,076 --> 00:39:59,696
Speaker 3: place for artists. So that was just interesting to hear

722
00:39:59,776 --> 00:40:03,696
Speaker 3: that whole lineage. And I was curious, in your interview

723
00:40:03,736 --> 00:40:06,336
Speaker 3: with Sharon, you seemed like you were giving her a

724
00:40:06,436 --> 00:40:10,936
Speaker 3: lot more room to talk. Whereas the Tom Morello, you

725
00:40:10,976 --> 00:40:13,606
Speaker 3: were so excited. You were like, you know, jumping in

726
00:40:13,686 --> 00:40:16,806
Speaker 3: and I'm sorry for interrupting you, but you were like so,

727
00:40:16,826 --> 00:40:20,926
Speaker 3: you know, like excited about it because there's just a

728
00:40:20,946 --> 00:40:25,086
Speaker 3: lot of commonality, I think. But With the interview with Sharon,

729
00:40:26,326 --> 00:40:29,786
Speaker 3: is there a reason you had a different approach? Did

730
00:40:29,806 --> 00:40:32,446
Speaker 3: it have anything to do with your past with Sharon?

731
00:40:32,886 --> 00:40:36,916
Speaker 1: A little bit. A little bit. Sharon and I made

732
00:40:37,016 --> 00:40:40,976
Speaker 1: up behind the scenes, I mean, easily over 15 years ago.

733
00:40:41,196 --> 00:40:41,396
Speaker 3: Yeah.

734
00:40:42,176 --> 00:40:45,596
Speaker 1: But I think there's a sweetness and an affection there

735
00:40:45,636 --> 00:40:49,816
Speaker 1: that we have naturally. And I wanted to be careful

736
00:40:50,496 --> 00:40:52,876
Speaker 1: in getting there. her to talk about stuff that maybe

737
00:40:52,936 --> 00:40:55,676
Speaker 1: she wouldn't normally talk about in a way that would

738
00:40:55,696 --> 00:40:58,036
Speaker 1: make her feel safe. And I think part of that

739
00:40:58,076 --> 00:41:02,616
Speaker 1: was also an understanding that if I wasn't careful, it

740
00:41:02,636 --> 00:41:04,336
Speaker 1: might come off that I still had a bone to

741
00:41:04,396 --> 00:41:12,166
Speaker 1: pick given our very public falling out circa around Machina, actually. So,

742
00:41:12,866 --> 00:41:15,486
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that Sharon and I are cool

743
00:41:15,546 --> 00:41:17,926
Speaker 1: and she knows that I'm with her. But at the

744
00:41:17,946 --> 00:41:20,126
Speaker 1: same time, I could see where maybe people would be

745
00:41:20,646 --> 00:41:25,966
Speaker 1: misinterpreting my approach. So if you see any nervousness there,

746
00:41:26,006 --> 00:41:28,586
Speaker 1: it's not between Sharon and I. It's because I want

747
00:41:28,606 --> 00:41:32,976
Speaker 1: to make sure that nobody misreads what's going on. Because

748
00:41:32,996 --> 00:41:35,916
Speaker 1: like I said, this is a long ago healed thing

749
00:41:35,956 --> 00:41:36,476
Speaker 1: between us.

750
00:41:36,856 --> 00:41:40,936
Speaker 3: Yeah. How did you end up? Well, how did the

751
00:41:41,076 --> 00:41:45,016
Speaker 3: Avatar eventually break down? And was that in the Machina era?

752
00:41:47,516 --> 00:41:51,016
Speaker 1: Uh, I think I rationalized that once I was out

753
00:41:51,076 --> 00:41:53,276
Speaker 1: of it with the pumpkins, it was like, okay, that

754
00:41:53,316 --> 00:41:56,096
Speaker 1: was a contrivance of that. I'm 33 years old. I'm

755
00:41:56,116 --> 00:41:57,736
Speaker 1: going to be on my own now and I'm going

756
00:41:57,756 --> 00:41:59,416
Speaker 1: to get a new record deal. I'm going to soldier

757
00:41:59,516 --> 00:42:04,386
Speaker 1: on as quote unquote, Billy Corgan, whoever that is. And I,

758
00:42:04,666 --> 00:42:07,346
Speaker 1: I genuinely tried in the band that followed the pumpkins,

759
00:42:07,406 --> 00:42:09,546
Speaker 1: which was one to just be a member of the band.

760
00:42:09,966 --> 00:42:10,326
Speaker 3: Yeah.

761
00:42:11,266 --> 00:42:15,026
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you a funny thing that happened. Juan

762
00:42:15,046 --> 00:42:16,726
Speaker 1: was very much put together as a kind of an

763
00:42:16,806 --> 00:42:20,106
Speaker 1: equal ensemble. All front members of the band could sing.

764
00:42:20,966 --> 00:42:23,106
Speaker 1: And two of the male members had sung for their

765
00:42:23,186 --> 00:42:28,716
Speaker 1: own bands or in their own situations. And Paz, the

766
00:42:28,736 --> 00:42:31,876
Speaker 1: bass player, could sing well, too. So I was trying

767
00:42:31,896 --> 00:42:33,936
Speaker 1: to find something that had a little bit more balance

768
00:42:33,956 --> 00:42:36,336
Speaker 1: to it than, say, the Pumpkins, at least on paper.

769
00:42:37,776 --> 00:42:40,266
Speaker 1: And I kind of got comfortable with not being the

770
00:42:40,326 --> 00:42:42,086
Speaker 1: front guy, even though I was the front guy.

771
00:42:42,546 --> 00:42:42,726
Speaker 3: Yeah.

772
00:42:44,096 --> 00:42:47,616
Speaker 1: And I read a review of us back when I

773
00:42:47,676 --> 00:42:54,236
Speaker 1: read reviews that chastised the show as being boring and

774
00:42:54,296 --> 00:42:58,316
Speaker 1: chastised me for sort of laying back or something. So

775
00:42:58,476 --> 00:43:01,276
Speaker 1: in a moment of peak, if that's the way you

776
00:43:01,296 --> 00:43:04,886
Speaker 1: pronounce that word, I decided the next night that I

777
00:43:04,906 --> 00:43:06,566
Speaker 1: was going to go out there and put on an

778
00:43:06,646 --> 00:43:08,366
Speaker 1: old-fashioned show in the way that I knew how to

779
00:43:08,406 --> 00:43:10,886
Speaker 1: do in The Pumpkins. And so I was jumping all

780
00:43:11,006 --> 00:43:12,746
Speaker 1: over and I had a great time and the show

781
00:43:12,766 --> 00:43:14,446
Speaker 1: was great and it was really well received. I had

782
00:43:14,526 --> 00:43:17,766
Speaker 1: no idea, none, that that night there was a critic

783
00:43:17,806 --> 00:43:22,026
Speaker 1: for Rolling Stone in the audience. I was the only

784
00:43:22,066 --> 00:43:23,796
Speaker 1: thing that would have it. I had no idea there

785
00:43:23,836 --> 00:43:26,216
Speaker 1: was a reviewer there. Usually somebody will come back and

786
00:43:26,236 --> 00:43:28,196
Speaker 1: tell you so-and-so is in the house or something. They're

787
00:43:28,216 --> 00:43:31,476
Speaker 1: on the guest. So imagine that I've done this whole

788
00:43:31,536 --> 00:43:35,416
Speaker 1: tour where I've really kind of laid back. And then

789
00:43:35,496 --> 00:43:38,296
Speaker 1: on this one night I decide to be my machina

790
00:43:38,316 --> 00:43:41,406
Speaker 1: self or something. And then this review comes out and

791
00:43:41,426 --> 00:43:44,026
Speaker 1: the reviewer chastises me for making the show about me.

792
00:43:48,286 --> 00:43:52,086
Speaker 1: I thought, well, you know, damned if you do, damned

793
00:43:52,126 --> 00:43:56,646
Speaker 1: if you don't. So in my brain, that equals, well,

794
00:43:56,686 --> 00:43:58,826
Speaker 1: if I'm damned, if I do, I'm going to do it.

795
00:43:59,856 --> 00:44:03,116
Speaker 1: I'm going to make it worse. So that set into

796
00:44:03,156 --> 00:44:07,796
Speaker 1: motion a whole nother round of various versions of whatever

797
00:44:07,816 --> 00:44:15,536
Speaker 1: this is. Yeah. It gets awfully disassociative at times. Yeah.

798
00:44:16,636 --> 00:44:19,976
Speaker 1: But I'm interested, I guess, so that's my excuse.

799
00:44:20,636 --> 00:44:20,936
Speaker 3: Yeah.

800
00:44:20,996 --> 00:44:21,976
Speaker 1: It's not healthy.

801
00:44:23,516 --> 00:44:24,196
Speaker 3: It works, though.

802
00:44:25,136 --> 00:44:26,116
Speaker 1: It does and it doesn't.

803
00:44:26,836 --> 00:44:31,756
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know how it... I'm sure, personally, emotionally,

804
00:44:31,916 --> 00:44:36,366
Speaker 3: it's extremely hard. Publicly, entertainment-wise, it works.

805
00:44:36,726 --> 00:44:37,316
Speaker 1: Let me take a.

806
00:44:39,796 --> 00:44:45,556
Speaker 1: A philosophical leap. A child that's abused or a child

807
00:44:45,576 --> 00:44:50,876
Speaker 1: that feels neglected, that changes its personality to gain attention

808
00:44:51,496 --> 00:44:55,446
Speaker 1: or love, ultimately knows, and Alice Miller talks about this

809
00:44:55,486 --> 00:44:57,426
Speaker 1: in the great book, The Drama of the Gifted Child,

810
00:44:58,406 --> 00:45:03,486
Speaker 1: that the child is aware that it's inauthentic. So there's

811
00:45:03,546 --> 00:45:07,926
Speaker 1: a sorrow attached to the personality Because the personality is

812
00:45:07,986 --> 00:45:10,796
Speaker 1: the device by which they're removed from their own, the

813
00:45:10,836 --> 00:45:14,316
Speaker 1: love that they really want, which is self-acceptance or the

814
00:45:14,336 --> 00:45:19,196
Speaker 1: acceptance of the parent or whatever. So to persist at

815
00:45:19,196 --> 00:45:22,956
Speaker 1: 57 with this disassociative set of characters, it means on

816
00:45:23,076 --> 00:45:25,796
Speaker 1: some level, I'm still not getting the love that I

817
00:45:25,856 --> 00:45:29,796
Speaker 1: would like to get. There's a sadness to that, you know?

818
00:45:29,836 --> 00:45:34,006
Speaker 1: And to illustrate this example, again, not asking for any

819
00:45:34,126 --> 00:45:37,416
Speaker 1: empathy or sympathies. I will be walking through an airport

820
00:45:37,556 --> 00:45:39,476
Speaker 1: and that's usually where people can get to me because it's,

821
00:45:39,536 --> 00:45:41,796
Speaker 1: I'm in, I'm in the world and I catch a plane.

822
00:45:43,046 --> 00:45:46,426
Speaker 1: And I can't tell you how many times people have

823
00:45:46,466 --> 00:45:49,346
Speaker 1: come up and talked to me as if I'm the

824
00:45:49,506 --> 00:45:53,666
Speaker 1: agent for the person that wrote all the songs. What

825
00:45:53,686 --> 00:45:56,206
Speaker 1: do you mean? They talk to me like I'm not

826
00:45:56,266 --> 00:45:58,446
Speaker 1: Billy Corgan, the artist. They talk to me like I'm

827
00:45:58,466 --> 00:46:01,226
Speaker 1: Billy Corgan, the human being who can, can Billy Corgan,

828
00:46:01,246 --> 00:46:03,456
Speaker 1: the human being talk to the person they're really interested in.

829
00:46:06,546 --> 00:46:08,516
Speaker 1: I know it sounds strange, but I'm telling you, this

830
00:46:08,576 --> 00:46:09,816
Speaker 1: is a common experience.

831
00:46:09,916 --> 00:46:12,896
Speaker 3: Like, can you have a meeting with that guy because

832
00:46:12,936 --> 00:46:16,016
Speaker 3: something's going on with him that obviously isn't right?

833
00:46:16,756 --> 00:46:19,516
Speaker 1: Yes. Like, do you talk to your twin?

834
00:46:21,026 --> 00:46:22,766
Speaker 3: Because they see you in the world and they see, oh,

835
00:46:22,806 --> 00:46:23,426
Speaker 3: he's a guy.

836
00:46:24,846 --> 00:46:27,746
Speaker 1: But they don't want that guy. They're not interested in

837
00:46:27,766 --> 00:46:30,546
Speaker 1: that guy. So it's weird because you're constantly in this

838
00:46:31,086 --> 00:46:34,386
Speaker 1: position of almost being put down, but they're putting you

839
00:46:34,406 --> 00:46:36,896
Speaker 1: down with you. I know it sounds very strange and

840
00:46:36,916 --> 00:46:39,356
Speaker 1: it's hard to translate, but I've had this experience many,

841
00:46:39,396 --> 00:46:44,666
Speaker 1: many times. It's like, in my world, we call them

842
00:46:44,686 --> 00:46:48,146
Speaker 1: Siamese zombies. They're people who are in love with Siamese

843
00:46:48,166 --> 00:46:50,446
Speaker 1: dream and there's no other record for them in the

844
00:46:50,486 --> 00:46:52,966
Speaker 1: pumpkin's cannon. And that's all they want to talk about.

845
00:46:53,066 --> 00:46:54,806
Speaker 1: And they'll talk about it for hours. And if you

846
00:46:54,826 --> 00:46:57,546
Speaker 1: even remotely go off the subject, their eyes glaze over

847
00:46:57,566 --> 00:47:00,336
Speaker 1: and they get bored. I call them Siamese zombies, right?

848
00:47:00,356 --> 00:47:03,436
Speaker 1: Because it's literally talking to a zombie. Yeah. Okay.

849
00:47:03,476 --> 00:47:03,596
Speaker 2: Yeah.

850
00:47:04,286 --> 00:47:06,706
Speaker 1: They will talk to me and say, you know, it

851
00:47:06,756 --> 00:47:08,576
Speaker 1: would be really nice if you could talk to the

852
00:47:08,616 --> 00:47:11,316
Speaker 1: guy who wrote those songs because I would like more

853
00:47:11,356 --> 00:47:14,196
Speaker 1: of those songs. Yes. You know, I'm the guy who

854
00:47:14,216 --> 00:47:16,936
Speaker 1: wrote those songs. And they're like, yeah, but if you

855
00:47:16,956 --> 00:47:18,776
Speaker 1: were really the guy who wrote those songs, you would

856
00:47:18,796 --> 00:47:22,296
Speaker 1: write more of them. And I'm like, no, I'm the

857
00:47:22,336 --> 00:47:24,026
Speaker 1: guy who wrote those songs and I choose not to

858
00:47:24,046 --> 00:47:26,426
Speaker 1: write more songs like that. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no.

859
00:47:27,186 --> 00:47:29,806
Speaker 1: There's something wrong in this exchange. It's like I'm not

860
00:47:29,866 --> 00:47:34,276
Speaker 1: even there. I know it's super bugged out. This is real.

861
00:47:34,596 --> 00:47:37,436
Speaker 1: But again, I think it speaks to the disassociative nature

862
00:47:37,516 --> 00:47:41,836
Speaker 1: of our culture. Oh, yeah. Digital avatars, real avatars, real

863
00:47:41,896 --> 00:47:45,376
Speaker 1: human beings, real human beings in a digital currency culture

864
00:47:45,796 --> 00:47:50,106
Speaker 1: are inconvenient because they cry, they bleed, they sigh, they yawn,

865
00:47:50,146 --> 00:47:55,506
Speaker 1: they look away. It's inconvenient to this digital agape that

866
00:47:55,546 --> 00:47:58,956
Speaker 1: needs to go on. And the pop stars have become

867
00:47:58,996 --> 00:48:02,456
Speaker 1: very skilled at nurturing this digital agape to their best.

868
00:48:03,076 --> 00:48:05,606
Speaker 1: So everybody else seems like they're moving slow.

869
00:48:08,806 --> 00:48:11,506
Speaker 3: That also seems like it's a product of the nature

870
00:48:11,546 --> 00:48:15,146
Speaker 3: of your job, which is pouring all of your emotional

871
00:48:15,186 --> 00:48:19,706
Speaker 3: life into something that becomes a product that people consume.

872
00:48:20,866 --> 00:48:23,276
Speaker 1: I'm okay with that. And that's crazy. It sounds, I'm

873
00:48:23,316 --> 00:48:26,776
Speaker 1: okay with that. What I'm not okay with is, is, um,

874
00:48:27,856 --> 00:48:30,936
Speaker 1: That's the wrong set of pouring emotions. Can you pour

875
00:48:30,956 --> 00:48:34,856
Speaker 1: a different set of emotions? Yeah. As if there's a choice.

876
00:48:36,456 --> 00:48:39,236
Speaker 1: That's a weird, weird, like it's like saying to your partner,

877
00:48:39,556 --> 00:48:42,296
Speaker 1: you're loving me wrong. Yeah. Can you love me this

878
00:48:42,416 --> 00:48:45,136
Speaker 1: other way? And they're like, no, I'm loving you the

879
00:48:45,176 --> 00:48:47,146
Speaker 1: way I love. This is all I know. I'm giving

880
00:48:47,166 --> 00:48:50,926
Speaker 1: you everything I got. No, no, no. I saw this

881
00:48:50,966 --> 00:48:54,466
Speaker 1: TV show. Can you love me like that? Yeah. It

882
00:48:54,606 --> 00:48:59,186
Speaker 1: really is this embrace of an inauthentic world. And what's

883
00:48:59,266 --> 00:49:03,496
Speaker 1: even more frightening is that nobody seems to care. And

884
00:49:03,506 --> 00:49:05,676
Speaker 1: when I say nobody, I'm being hyperbolic. But I mean,

885
00:49:06,196 --> 00:49:08,756
Speaker 1: you don't hear this big hue and cry in the culture.

886
00:49:09,296 --> 00:49:12,416
Speaker 1: What happened to our authentic culture? I think because people

887
00:49:12,456 --> 00:49:15,336
Speaker 1: are entertained, bread and circus. So as long as they're

888
00:49:15,356 --> 00:49:20,156
Speaker 1: entertained with the inauthenticity. And I think the rising suicide

889
00:49:20,256 --> 00:49:24,136
Speaker 1: rates with young people are some small indication. And they're

890
00:49:24,156 --> 00:49:27,996
Speaker 1: through the roof that something is amiss. But nobody's going

891
00:49:28,016 --> 00:49:30,516
Speaker 1: to hit the pause button and even do any kind

892
00:49:30,556 --> 00:49:34,596
Speaker 1: of deep dive study on how this associative culture is

893
00:49:34,636 --> 00:49:37,106
Speaker 1: influencing young people. And again, I go back to the

894
00:49:37,126 --> 00:49:39,406
Speaker 1: analogy I made. I think they look down the pipe

895
00:49:39,446 --> 00:49:41,846
Speaker 1: and they say, there's no room for me to be me.

896
00:49:45,316 --> 00:49:47,736
Speaker 3: Do you really think with everything that's going on and

897
00:49:47,796 --> 00:49:51,846
Speaker 3: how fast things escalate in media that people will get

898
00:49:51,886 --> 00:49:56,246
Speaker 3: to a point where authenticity will make a comeback? Do

899
00:49:56,266 --> 00:49:57,606
Speaker 3: you really think that's possible?

900
00:49:58,106 --> 00:50:00,126
Speaker 1: I do, but I'm going to paint it in a bleak,

901
00:50:00,766 --> 00:50:01,346
Speaker 1: cynical way.

902
00:50:01,566 --> 00:50:01,866
Speaker 3: Yeah.

903
00:50:02,726 --> 00:50:04,386
Speaker 1: I think you will end up with a culture which

904
00:50:04,466 --> 00:50:08,376
Speaker 1: is 80 to 90 percent inauthentic and a bifurcated culture

905
00:50:08,456 --> 00:50:11,296
Speaker 1: which celebrates the 10 or 15 to 20 percent remaining.

906
00:50:12,416 --> 00:50:14,956
Speaker 1: And they will set up their own economy and And

907
00:50:15,026 --> 00:50:20,286
Speaker 1: celebrate their, for lack of a better word, authenticity. You're

908
00:50:20,306 --> 00:50:21,486
Speaker 1: going to get to the point where you're going to

909
00:50:21,506 --> 00:50:24,026
Speaker 1: have artists say, they will say on their records, there's

910
00:50:24,066 --> 00:50:28,866
Speaker 1: no auto-tune on this record. You know, like the performance

911
00:50:28,886 --> 00:50:30,506
Speaker 1: you hear, we actually recorded.

912
00:50:31,066 --> 00:50:31,496
Speaker 3: Yeah.

913
00:50:32,106 --> 00:50:36,696
Speaker 1: You know, this photo is not airbrushed. And you see

914
00:50:36,736 --> 00:50:40,516
Speaker 1: little glimmers of that, like when famous actresses will post

915
00:50:40,556 --> 00:50:43,316
Speaker 1: pictures with no makeup. Yes. There's some.

916
00:50:43,996 --> 00:50:45,956
Speaker 3: Pam Anderson, no makeup tour.

917
00:50:46,556 --> 00:50:50,456
Speaker 1: Sure. There's some acknowledgement of it all. But I do

918
00:50:50,516 --> 00:50:52,996
Speaker 1: think it's going to end up in a bifurcated type

919
00:50:53,056 --> 00:50:53,356
Speaker 1: of thing.

920
00:50:54,016 --> 00:50:54,296
Speaker 3: Yeah.

921
00:50:54,856 --> 00:50:58,366
Speaker 1: Crassly, it'll become a business model. It's the thing that

922
00:50:58,386 --> 00:51:00,426
Speaker 1: the real people will point at the non-real people and

923
00:51:00,466 --> 00:51:01,166
Speaker 1: say they're not real.

924
00:51:01,466 --> 00:51:01,726
Speaker 3: Yeah.

925
00:51:02,026 --> 00:51:03,906
Speaker 1: And the non-real people will say, we're having a lot

926
00:51:03,926 --> 00:51:07,146
Speaker 1: more fun over here. Enjoy your no makeup and enjoy

927
00:51:07,186 --> 00:51:10,086
Speaker 1: your no autotune. We're over here having a great party.

928
00:51:10,106 --> 00:51:11,906
Speaker 1: And oh, by the way, we're on all the major

929
00:51:11,946 --> 00:51:14,986
Speaker 1: media platforms because it's all about clicks. So as long

930
00:51:15,006 --> 00:51:16,586
Speaker 1: as we get clicks, we don't care what you think,

931
00:51:16,626 --> 00:51:18,846
Speaker 1: because clicks are the new cast.

932
00:51:19,526 --> 00:51:19,726
Speaker 3: Yeah.

933
00:51:20,326 --> 00:51:24,396
Speaker 1: So that's the cynic in me. But I do feel

934
00:51:24,896 --> 00:51:29,136
Speaker 1: and I'll make one last grand prognostication, which is I

935
00:51:29,176 --> 00:51:31,636
Speaker 1: do think you're going to see the old media system.

936
00:51:32,476 --> 00:51:39,646
Speaker 1: These would be how it interlaces with entertainment. Pick your poison. Grammys, Oscars, Emmys,

937
00:51:40,666 --> 00:51:44,086
Speaker 1: MTV Awards. I'm not just talking about ratings. I think

938
00:51:44,106 --> 00:51:48,166
Speaker 1: that whole system of elites basically picking and choosing winners

939
00:51:48,246 --> 00:51:49,626
Speaker 1: or losers is about to explode.

940
00:51:50,066 --> 00:51:50,356
Speaker 2: Yeah.

941
00:51:50,936 --> 00:51:52,756
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's going to vanish, but I think

942
00:51:52,796 --> 00:51:55,956
Speaker 1: it's about to explode. I think we've reached the tolerance

943
00:51:56,016 --> 00:51:58,696
Speaker 1: point for the deception of it all. And I'm not

944
00:51:58,756 --> 00:52:01,436
Speaker 1: saying that people don't win awards. I've won awards. I'm

945
00:52:01,456 --> 00:52:03,696
Speaker 1: proud to say I've won a couple Grammys. Yeah. But

946
00:52:04,116 --> 00:52:08,706
Speaker 1: That system has become so burdened by the weight of

947
00:52:08,846 --> 00:52:11,546
Speaker 1: artifice that it can't longer sustain itself.

948
00:52:12,886 --> 00:52:15,386
Speaker 3: What markers will we use, though, as if you put

949
00:52:15,426 --> 00:52:18,936
Speaker 3: yourself in a journalist's seat, a lot of the times

950
00:52:18,956 --> 00:52:21,596
Speaker 3: when we write the intros for this show, we'll say,

951
00:52:21,996 --> 00:52:27,076
Speaker 3: you know, so-and-so artist, three-time Grammy Award winner. Like when

952
00:52:27,116 --> 00:52:30,226
Speaker 3: you were talking about Diane Warren, you listed off her

953
00:52:30,266 --> 00:52:35,466
Speaker 3: many awards. If those shows, those old institutions blow up

954
00:52:35,526 --> 00:52:40,126
Speaker 3: and disappear and they're already, you know, irrelevant, very close

955
00:52:40,206 --> 00:52:45,186
Speaker 3: to it. And there's no more platinum albums like, you know,

956
00:52:45,476 --> 00:52:51,016
Speaker 3: Eminem comes out in 2003 and goes like triple platinum

957
00:52:51,056 --> 00:52:51,856
Speaker 3: on the first day.

958
00:52:52,456 --> 00:52:53,076
Speaker 1: That's gone.

959
00:52:54,036 --> 00:52:56,276
Speaker 3: So what what will be the markers of success?

960
00:52:57,716 --> 00:52:59,456
Speaker 1: I know it's a hard thing because I think you're

961
00:52:59,496 --> 00:53:01,896
Speaker 1: asking a great question, but I think you'll ultimately, you,

962
00:53:02,076 --> 00:53:04,696
Speaker 1: I guess I'm personalizing it. I think you would, you

963
00:53:04,716 --> 00:53:06,696
Speaker 1: would look, you would survey the landscape and you will

964
00:53:06,716 --> 00:53:11,686
Speaker 1: see who has influence. Yeah. Using myself as an example, right?

965
00:53:13,356 --> 00:53:17,586
Speaker 1: Under the old system, I was told repeatedly for 15

966
00:53:17,586 --> 00:53:19,986
Speaker 1: to 20 years of my life, my influence was gone.

967
00:53:20,746 --> 00:53:23,786
Speaker 1: My value was severely diminished. What value I had was

968
00:53:23,866 --> 00:53:26,726
Speaker 1: in the past and And so my only value in

969
00:53:26,736 --> 00:53:29,586
Speaker 1: the present was to reap the past. I was told

970
00:53:29,626 --> 00:53:33,046
Speaker 1: this repeatedly by some of the most famous and influential

971
00:53:33,086 --> 00:53:37,006
Speaker 1: people in the music business. No joke. In boardrooms where

972
00:53:37,026 --> 00:53:39,726
Speaker 1: they just looked at me and said, here's where you are.

973
00:53:39,846 --> 00:53:44,046
Speaker 1: Take it or leave it. I refuse. I fought. I

974
00:53:44,126 --> 00:53:47,326
Speaker 1: stuck my crazy foot in the ground. And I think

975
00:53:47,406 --> 00:53:49,726
Speaker 1: now you see that I do have more influence than

976
00:53:49,746 --> 00:53:52,986
Speaker 1: they would have given me credit for. It's hard to

977
00:53:53,086 --> 00:53:57,816
Speaker 1: quantify what that influence is. gap in the old guard

978
00:53:57,856 --> 00:54:00,156
Speaker 1: it would have been well so-and-so mentioned you in an

979
00:54:00,196 --> 00:54:05,216
Speaker 1: interview or your album the number number four most influential

980
00:54:05,596 --> 00:54:09,476
Speaker 1: alternative record of 1993 no one gives a shit about

981
00:54:10,106 --> 00:54:13,626
Speaker 1: any of that anymore so if you almost have to

982
00:54:13,666 --> 00:54:16,086
Speaker 1: do a daily read of who actually can put their

983
00:54:16,146 --> 00:54:20,146
Speaker 1: thumb on the scale and move something and i'll bring

984
00:54:20,186 --> 00:54:25,056
Speaker 1: it back selfishly to the podcast My voice in the

985
00:54:25,096 --> 00:54:28,956
Speaker 1: podcast is important, not because it's me, but because I

986
00:54:29,016 --> 00:54:32,526
Speaker 1: have the authority to stand there and have these conversations.

987
00:54:33,166 --> 00:54:36,266
Speaker 1: You don't even have to like my music, buy my music,

988
00:54:36,506 --> 00:54:38,566
Speaker 1: care about me as an artist, care that I'm a

989
00:54:38,666 --> 00:54:43,466
Speaker 1: father and an entrepreneur. But you cannot deny that I've

990
00:54:43,486 --> 00:54:45,326
Speaker 1: spent 35 years in the game.

991
00:54:45,766 --> 00:54:46,046
Speaker 3: Yeah.

992
00:54:47,026 --> 00:54:49,956
Speaker 1: Okay. I know the game really well. And by the way,

993
00:54:50,036 --> 00:54:52,456
Speaker 1: I'm on the record speaking about the game for 35 years. Yeah.

994
00:54:54,176 --> 00:54:56,776
Speaker 1: So just the ability to stand in that forest and say,

995
00:54:57,336 --> 00:55:00,176
Speaker 1: I know what I'm talking about. You can disagree with me.

996
00:55:00,496 --> 00:55:03,226
Speaker 1: In fact, go ahead. But at least I have a

997
00:55:03,236 --> 00:55:05,826
Speaker 1: right to stand here. That's a different type of authority.

998
00:55:06,066 --> 00:55:08,106
Speaker 1: Has nothing to do with record sales. It has nothing

999
00:55:08,126 --> 00:55:10,046
Speaker 1: to do with whether my song is on the chart.

1000
00:55:11,166 --> 00:55:15,106
Speaker 1: That is the... Yes. What I'm after is, this is

1001
00:55:15,146 --> 00:55:20,046
Speaker 1: where the legacy media is so flat-footed. because they're so

1002
00:55:20,146 --> 00:55:22,966
Speaker 1: reliant on the New York Times system on down that

1003
00:55:23,006 --> 00:55:26,646
Speaker 1: has existed in our entire lifetimes. The New York Times

1004
00:55:26,686 --> 00:55:29,606
Speaker 1: was like the Pope, and then everything flowed down from

1005
00:55:29,646 --> 00:55:34,346
Speaker 1: the Pope. That shit is gone. And it doesn't matter

1006
00:55:34,366 --> 00:55:37,446
Speaker 1: your political stripe or social stripe. You can easily jump

1007
00:55:37,546 --> 00:55:41,266
Speaker 1: on YouTube or Twitter. I still call it Twitter.

1008
00:55:41,386 --> 00:55:41,746
Speaker 3: Me too.

1009
00:55:42,266 --> 00:55:46,536
Speaker 1: Okay, God bless. You can pretty much figure out Who

1010
00:55:46,556 --> 00:55:49,436
Speaker 1: can put their thumb on a scale and actually move stuff?

1011
00:55:49,836 --> 00:55:54,256
Speaker 1: This is a new economy that's very unprecedented. And you

1012
00:55:54,276 --> 00:55:57,156
Speaker 1: can see the legacy media is completely looking around saying,

1013
00:55:57,296 --> 00:56:01,476
Speaker 1: what happened? They burned out all the ist words. They

1014
00:56:01,496 --> 00:56:05,026
Speaker 1: burned out all the cancel culture. They lost that game.

1015
00:56:05,186 --> 00:56:07,846
Speaker 1: And now there's this whole new rise of people. And

1016
00:56:07,886 --> 00:56:10,086
Speaker 1: everyone's going, who the hell are these people? And why

1017
00:56:10,106 --> 00:56:12,046
Speaker 1: are they eating 300,000 views, 60,000 views, 300,000 views? Who

1018
00:56:12,146 --> 00:56:19,086
Speaker 1: are these people? In that economy, I'm actually quite valuable.

1019
00:56:20,646 --> 00:56:24,166
Speaker 1: So that's weird because, again, I'm speaking again personally, I

1020
00:56:24,246 --> 00:56:27,606
Speaker 1: was told for 20 years, you have no value unless

1021
00:56:27,646 --> 00:56:33,296
Speaker 1: you ring the bell of 1979 into eternity. And to

1022
00:56:33,336 --> 00:56:36,456
Speaker 1: be fair, even people in my personal life that know me,

1023
00:56:36,476 --> 00:56:39,216
Speaker 1: that have known me for 20, 30 years, they don't

1024
00:56:39,296 --> 00:56:44,376
Speaker 1: understand it because they're told by their family or their

1025
00:56:44,476 --> 00:56:49,146
Speaker 1: friends or their workmates, Their assessment of my value. These

1026
00:56:49,186 --> 00:56:52,506
Speaker 1: are people in my... They don't even get it. Yeah.

1027
00:56:52,926 --> 00:56:55,826
Speaker 1: They think I'm crazy because I'm like, no, you don't understand.

1028
00:56:58,836 --> 00:57:00,736
Speaker 1: It's like, who can walk in a room and actually

1029
00:57:00,796 --> 00:57:02,936
Speaker 1: say something that has any meaning in a world that

1030
00:57:02,976 --> 00:57:06,396
Speaker 1: has very little meaning anymore? Because it's all been so game. Yeah.

1031
00:57:06,796 --> 00:57:09,756
Speaker 1: It's like the whole world's Disneyland now, right? It's not

1032
00:57:09,916 --> 00:57:11,746
Speaker 1: funny at some point. It gets a little... It's like...

1033
00:57:12,976 --> 00:57:14,656
Speaker 1: I used to have a drummer. He went to Disneyland

1034
00:57:14,716 --> 00:57:16,356
Speaker 1: one time four days in a row. And I thought, oh,

1035
00:57:16,376 --> 00:57:18,436
Speaker 1: my God, I love Disneyland. But four days in a row,

1036
00:57:18,456 --> 00:57:22,346
Speaker 1: I start to lose my mind with it's a small world. OK,

1037
00:57:22,356 --> 00:57:24,416
Speaker 1: that's what to me. It's like we're all in Disneyland

1038
00:57:24,476 --> 00:57:28,096
Speaker 1: day after day after day. Like and we can't get

1039
00:57:28,276 --> 00:57:33,416
Speaker 1: out of it. The screaming headlines, the hyper politicization of

1040
00:57:33,796 --> 00:57:35,496
Speaker 1: every facet of our society.

1041
00:57:35,976 --> 00:57:36,196
Speaker 3: Yes.

1042
00:57:36,296 --> 00:57:39,576
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter your politics. We're just all sort of hired.

1043
00:57:41,496 --> 00:57:43,676
Speaker 1: So at some point you look around and go, I

1044
00:57:43,716 --> 00:57:46,516
Speaker 1: just want a quiet song and a quiet hymn or

1045
00:57:46,556 --> 00:57:50,736
Speaker 1: a tree to sit under. Yes. So, of course, in

1046
00:57:50,776 --> 00:57:53,546
Speaker 1: the digital landscape, we're going to find those voices and

1047
00:57:53,586 --> 00:57:57,326
Speaker 1: those people, which is why anachronistically doing a podcast, which

1048
00:57:57,386 --> 00:58:00,326
Speaker 1: feels more like a PBS special from 1972 than 2025

1049
00:58:00,326 --> 00:58:05,916
Speaker 1: is gaining. Really good traction because it feels like just

1050
00:58:05,996 --> 00:58:08,576
Speaker 1: a nice, quiet poem where two people can have a

1051
00:58:08,616 --> 00:58:11,756
Speaker 1: conversation about stuff that is important. And you know how

1052
00:58:11,776 --> 00:58:15,466
Speaker 1: I know it's important? Because I know it's important. It's life.

1053
00:58:15,526 --> 00:58:18,726
Speaker 1: It's like, read Sanskrit. It's like it's there all the

1054
00:58:18,766 --> 00:58:24,736
Speaker 1: way back 4,000 years. Life, love, ambition, you know, flew

1055
00:58:24,776 --> 00:58:26,876
Speaker 1: too close to the sun. This shit's never going to

1056
00:58:26,896 --> 00:58:27,336
Speaker 1: get old.

1057
00:58:27,896 --> 00:58:30,756
Speaker 3: No, you're so right. For me, it seemed like a

1058
00:58:30,776 --> 00:58:35,166
Speaker 3: big turning point was your 2017 appearance on Rogan. I

1059
00:58:35,966 --> 00:58:39,866
Speaker 3: feel like that really showed all of us this like

1060
00:58:40,046 --> 00:58:45,246
Speaker 3: really thoughtful, eloquent, the elder statesman within the business. It

1061
00:58:45,326 --> 00:58:48,526
Speaker 3: showed us a new side of Billy Corgan. That was

1062
00:58:48,646 --> 00:58:51,376
Speaker 3: my experience. I don't know if everyone had that experience,

1063
00:58:51,436 --> 00:58:53,396
Speaker 3: but like I was watching it with my husband the

1064
00:58:53,416 --> 00:58:56,896
Speaker 3: other night and he's like, damn, this guy's like smart.

1065
00:58:57,546 --> 00:59:00,236
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I know it's crazy. And he's got

1066
00:59:00,276 --> 00:59:04,196
Speaker 3: like these crazy stories. So what was the turning point

1067
00:59:04,256 --> 00:59:06,276
Speaker 3: for you where you were like, I want to do this?

1068
00:59:06,356 --> 00:59:08,216
Speaker 3: I want to get into the whole podcasting thing.

1069
00:59:08,296 --> 00:59:11,106
Speaker 1: I did. I didn't. Honestly, I didn't particularly have any

1070
00:59:11,276 --> 00:59:12,666
Speaker 1: yen for it. Right.

1071
00:59:12,886 --> 00:59:13,066
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1072
00:59:13,066 --> 00:59:19,916
Speaker 1: Yen, that's a good word. I did a podcast a

1073
00:59:19,936 --> 00:59:24,116
Speaker 1: few years back built around our album Autumn at 33 Songs.

1074
00:59:24,636 --> 00:59:27,996
Speaker 1: I did the podcast. Nobody cared. Nobody was ringing me

1075
00:59:28,056 --> 00:59:30,716
Speaker 1: up to do a podcast deal. So I thought, okay,

1076
00:59:30,736 --> 00:59:33,616
Speaker 1: that's just not for me, although I enjoyed it. I

1077
00:59:33,656 --> 00:59:35,986
Speaker 1: was very intrigued with what Rick Beato does.

1078
00:59:36,166 --> 00:59:36,676
Speaker 3: Yes, yes.

1079
00:59:37,456 --> 00:59:39,216
Speaker 1: And he's pivoted a couple of times and he's even

1080
00:59:39,236 --> 00:59:43,316
Speaker 1: pivoting again. Very smart guy. Yeah. Very capable musician and

1081
00:59:43,476 --> 00:59:46,976
Speaker 1: musical mind as well. And both Jimmy and I from

1082
00:59:46,996 --> 00:59:50,256
Speaker 1: the pumpkins have had the honor of being interviewed by Rick.

1083
00:59:50,376 --> 00:59:50,676
Speaker 3: Yep.

1084
00:59:51,656 --> 00:59:54,696
Speaker 1: But I think what Rick showed is there are a

1085
00:59:54,716 --> 00:59:56,296
Speaker 1: lot of musicians out there who just want to hear

1086
00:59:56,316 --> 01:00:00,336
Speaker 1: about music, not through the prism of the drama and the,

1087
01:00:00,476 --> 01:00:02,686
Speaker 1: and tell us a good tour story Motley crew one

1088
01:00:02,726 --> 01:00:05,256
Speaker 1: more time. Yeah. Like, tell us how you actually recorded

1089
01:00:05,276 --> 01:00:07,236
Speaker 1: that bass sound, because people are still talking about that

1090
01:00:07,276 --> 01:00:09,776
Speaker 1: bass sound 40 years later. And I thought, OK, if

1091
01:00:09,796 --> 01:00:12,546
Speaker 1: there's a market there for what Rick's after on the

1092
01:00:12,586 --> 01:00:14,406
Speaker 1: deep dive, kind of let's call it the nerd side

1093
01:00:14,426 --> 01:00:17,606
Speaker 1: of the equation, which I love. There's no dissing saying nerd.

1094
01:00:18,866 --> 01:00:21,126
Speaker 1: Then I know there's this other side of the conversation,

1095
01:00:21,146 --> 01:00:23,776
Speaker 1: which more gets into the interior life of a writer.

1096
01:00:24,236 --> 01:00:24,476
Speaker 2: Right.

1097
01:00:24,756 --> 01:00:27,776
Speaker 1: And by extension, the interior life of an actor or

1098
01:00:27,796 --> 01:00:31,656
Speaker 1: a scientist, right? And so that's my ultimate ambition is

1099
01:00:31,676 --> 01:00:35,436
Speaker 1: to broaden the scope past, even past the arts, where

1100
01:00:35,456 --> 01:00:38,296
Speaker 1: you can talk to anybody, whether they're a successful podcaster,

1101
01:00:38,756 --> 01:00:42,086
Speaker 1: a successful race car driver, because I think that interior

1102
01:00:42,106 --> 01:00:45,506
Speaker 1: life discussion is something that's really fresh. If you can

1103
01:00:45,546 --> 01:00:49,566
Speaker 1: do it in a non-clickbaity way, then I think we

1104
01:00:49,586 --> 01:00:52,786
Speaker 1: all benefit from that. So that's kind of the whole setup.

1105
01:00:52,846 --> 01:00:54,706
Speaker 1: And then the other part of the story is I

1106
01:00:54,726 --> 01:00:56,406
Speaker 1: had no plans in doing it. And then I was

1107
01:00:56,486 --> 01:01:00,366
Speaker 1: on Bill Maher's show, Club Random. Yeah. I did the parents,

1108
01:01:00,486 --> 01:01:02,486
Speaker 1: they pulled me aside and said, we'd like you to

1109
01:01:02,506 --> 01:01:05,286
Speaker 1: be a host on his new podcast network he's doing.

1110
01:01:05,346 --> 01:01:06,166
Speaker 3: Wow, that's cool.

1111
01:01:06,186 --> 01:01:10,136
Speaker 1: Yeah. And one thing that struck me right away, and

1112
01:01:10,176 --> 01:01:14,536
Speaker 1: I've known Bill for over 25 years, is Bill, you know,

1113
01:01:14,716 --> 01:01:17,356
Speaker 1: is very much a free speech guy. Yes. And I'm

1114
01:01:17,396 --> 01:01:19,596
Speaker 1: a free speech, I'm not a free speech absolutist, but

1115
01:01:19,616 --> 01:01:21,436
Speaker 1: I'm very much a free speech person. I think our

1116
01:01:21,476 --> 01:01:26,446
Speaker 1: society ultimately benefits from open dialogue, however uncomfortable it That

1117
01:01:26,466 --> 01:01:28,226
Speaker 1: we always come out on the better if we just

1118
01:01:28,286 --> 01:01:31,066
Speaker 1: are willing to have the dialogue. Like, I hear you

1119
01:01:31,166 --> 01:01:34,206
Speaker 1: and I agree, or I disagree, but we work forward. Anyway, sorry,

1120
01:01:34,226 --> 01:01:40,176
Speaker 1: I'm over-explaining. And even just as a side-long illustration of that,

1121
01:01:40,196 --> 01:01:43,316
Speaker 1: you know, I just did the appearance on Rogan and

1122
01:01:43,556 --> 01:01:47,286
Speaker 1: a new one. And it's done very, very well, you know,

1123
01:01:47,766 --> 01:01:50,106
Speaker 1: in the economy of podcasting. You know, lots of people

1124
01:01:50,166 --> 01:01:54,906
Speaker 1: have watched it. But within... 12 hours of my appearance

1125
01:01:55,006 --> 01:01:57,426
Speaker 1: on there. Here come the fans who are mad at

1126
01:01:57,446 --> 01:01:59,026
Speaker 1: me for being on Rogan's podcast.

1127
01:01:59,346 --> 01:01:59,566
Speaker 3: Yes.

1128
01:02:00,746 --> 01:02:04,306
Speaker 1: We didn't talk politics at all in two hours and

1129
01:02:04,306 --> 01:02:06,866
Speaker 1: 45 minutes. And going back to be, you know, why

1130
01:02:07,046 --> 01:02:09,056
Speaker 1: I wanted to work with Bill and Bill's stance on

1131
01:02:09,116 --> 01:02:12,816
Speaker 1: free speech. There's no politics in my podcast. There's no

1132
01:02:12,856 --> 01:02:14,836
Speaker 1: politics at all. I mean, we talk a little bit

1133
01:02:14,876 --> 01:02:18,676
Speaker 1: about it with Tom Morello, but even then it's more

1134
01:02:18,716 --> 01:02:23,076
Speaker 1: philosophical than pontificating on current events. I don't want the

1135
01:02:23,116 --> 01:02:26,016
Speaker 1: artistic sphere, and I'm going to extend that to scientists

1136
01:02:26,056 --> 01:02:27,996
Speaker 1: as well. I don't want the artistic sphere that I'm

1137
01:02:28,116 --> 01:02:31,776
Speaker 1: after to be poisoned by people's polemic need to pick

1138
01:02:31,836 --> 01:02:34,136
Speaker 1: winners and losers. I want us all to win. That's

1139
01:02:34,176 --> 01:02:36,546
Speaker 1: why I want, that's why I called it what it is.

1140
01:02:36,626 --> 01:02:38,986
Speaker 1: I really think these are magnificent people that I want

1141
01:02:39,006 --> 01:02:42,046
Speaker 1: to share with the audience from my perspective. Okay. But

1142
01:02:42,086 --> 01:02:44,646
Speaker 1: when you see people trying to go after you because

1143
01:02:44,746 --> 01:02:48,686
Speaker 1: quote unquote, you know, I love these buzzwords, disinformation and

1144
01:02:48,886 --> 01:02:52,356
Speaker 1: all this stuff. I mean, it's unbelievable to me. First off,

1145
01:02:52,376 --> 01:02:56,556
Speaker 1: Joe's the number one podcast host in the world.

1146
01:02:56,876 --> 01:02:57,316
Speaker 3: For years.

1147
01:02:58,596 --> 01:02:59,376
Speaker 1: For many years.

1148
01:02:59,576 --> 01:03:00,256
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1149
01:03:00,296 --> 01:03:04,226
Speaker 1: Second of all, Joe's been a public person for 30,

1150
01:03:04,226 --> 01:03:09,626
Speaker 1: going on 35 years. So I'm not supposed to go

1151
01:03:09,726 --> 01:03:13,346
Speaker 1: on somebody's podcast because a percentage, it could be 50%,

1152
01:03:13,346 --> 01:03:15,886
Speaker 1: it could be 100, I don't care. A percentage of

1153
01:03:15,906 --> 01:03:20,026
Speaker 1: the U.S. population has an issue with the man's politics.

1154
01:03:21,586 --> 01:03:24,666
Speaker 1: And somehow by being on his podcast and talking about

1155
01:03:24,806 --> 01:03:31,426
Speaker 1: nothing about politics, I'm somehow endorsing his position. Joe doesn't

1156
01:03:31,466 --> 01:03:33,546
Speaker 1: even know what my political position is. He didn't even

1157
01:03:33,686 --> 01:03:36,826
Speaker 1: ask me. There was no qualification of, do you agree

1158
01:03:36,866 --> 01:03:39,726
Speaker 1: with me or you disagree with me? Let's just come

1159
01:03:39,766 --> 01:03:41,466
Speaker 1: on and talk about whatever we're going to talk about.

1160
01:03:41,766 --> 01:03:43,606
Speaker 1: That to me is not a society I want to

1161
01:03:43,626 --> 01:03:46,896
Speaker 1: be part of. And I would say we've had about

1162
01:03:47,006 --> 01:03:49,436
Speaker 1: seven to 10 years of a society and it's not working.

1163
01:03:50,956 --> 01:03:54,456
Speaker 1: It's not working. So why people persist is beyond me,

1164
01:03:54,536 --> 01:03:58,536
Speaker 1: but they're going to persist. I acknowledge that. Let them persist.

1165
01:03:58,656 --> 01:04:00,856
Speaker 1: But I think they're going to find it's a losing strategy.

1166
01:04:02,676 --> 01:04:07,396
Speaker 3: You seem very aware, which I appreciate, of how each outlet,

1167
01:04:07,916 --> 01:04:11,276
Speaker 3: each podcast is different and the host approaches it differently.

1168
01:04:11,656 --> 01:04:13,816
Speaker 3: So for Rick Beato, you sit down and you know

1169
01:04:13,856 --> 01:04:17,166
Speaker 3: you're going to get like a really intense technical conversation

1170
01:04:17,206 --> 01:04:20,956
Speaker 3: about choices you've made artistically. And you seem prepared for

1171
01:04:20,996 --> 01:04:25,396
Speaker 3: that and up for it too, which is great. With

1172
01:04:25,516 --> 01:04:29,336
Speaker 3: Bill Maher, what's it like being in his little club random?

1173
01:04:29,376 --> 01:04:34,396
Speaker 3: Like he's like smoking blunts, which is so crazy. And

1174
01:04:34,436 --> 01:04:37,206
Speaker 3: like doing shots, like what's it like being right there?

1175
01:04:38,026 --> 01:04:42,086
Speaker 1: Well, you know, my father was a weed smoker and

1176
01:04:42,186 --> 01:04:45,026
Speaker 1: smoked continuously. So it'd been a while since I had

1177
01:04:45,046 --> 01:04:48,466
Speaker 1: a good contact high. So as Bill's smoking away, I

1178
01:04:48,486 --> 01:04:49,766
Speaker 1: start to get a little bit buzzed.

1179
01:04:49,986 --> 01:04:50,226
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1180
01:04:51,006 --> 01:04:54,266
Speaker 1: And then you're thinking like, you know, I'm pretty much

1181
01:04:54,286 --> 01:04:56,826
Speaker 1: a sober person in life. So I'm sitting here thinking,

1182
01:04:56,886 --> 01:04:59,706
Speaker 1: am I about to do something stoned, which I'm not

1183
01:04:59,806 --> 01:05:02,186
Speaker 1: used to being stoned. Am I about to do something

1184
01:05:02,206 --> 01:05:04,266
Speaker 1: that's going to get me, you know, blown up here

1185
01:05:04,446 --> 01:05:06,646
Speaker 1: in public? So there were times where I was kind

1186
01:05:06,686 --> 01:05:09,516
Speaker 1: of like, as long as I was afraid to say something,

1187
01:05:09,536 --> 01:05:10,756
Speaker 1: I was afraid to say it wrong.

1188
01:05:11,196 --> 01:05:11,396
Speaker 3: Yes.

1189
01:05:12,866 --> 01:05:14,446
Speaker 1: But like I said, I've known Bill for a long

1190
01:05:14,486 --> 01:05:18,486
Speaker 1: time and Bill's a very interesting mind in that, like

1191
01:05:18,586 --> 01:05:21,146
Speaker 1: all great professional comedians, you're never quite sure where they're

1192
01:05:21,166 --> 01:05:24,276
Speaker 1: going to go. It's not that they're always after the joke,

1193
01:05:24,336 --> 01:05:25,536
Speaker 1: but they're kind of after the bit.

1194
01:05:25,936 --> 01:05:26,176
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1195
01:05:26,576 --> 01:05:29,556
Speaker 1: Take me to the bit. So we are talking about

1196
01:05:29,596 --> 01:05:36,176
Speaker 1: Gilligan and masturbation and it was interesting. Yeah, it got

1197
01:05:36,396 --> 01:05:39,986
Speaker 1: it got pretty interesting. But. It reminded me of about

1198
01:05:39,986 --> 01:05:41,726
Speaker 1: 8,000 other stoner conversations I've had.

1199
01:05:41,746 --> 01:05:45,066
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is kind of perfect for a podcast.

1200
01:05:45,496 --> 01:05:48,536
Speaker 1: Sure. I think that that's fun. I think it's pretty

1201
01:05:48,556 --> 01:05:51,096
Speaker 1: brilliant that Bill's got this super serious side on his

1202
01:05:51,276 --> 01:05:53,636
Speaker 1: HBO show. And then there's the other side that wants

1203
01:05:53,676 --> 01:05:56,736
Speaker 1: to have a laugh and be amused and or irritated,

1204
01:05:56,776 --> 01:05:59,036
Speaker 1: which he's really good at being irritated. Totally.

1205
01:05:59,476 --> 01:06:01,796
Speaker 3: And then going on Howard, what's that been like for you?

1206
01:06:01,956 --> 01:06:05,436
Speaker 3: Are you nervous before these appearances or you seem very

1207
01:06:05,476 --> 01:06:08,476
Speaker 3: much at ease, but. Are you in your head about

1208
01:06:08,536 --> 01:06:10,716
Speaker 3: it to where you're thinking about the audience and you're

1209
01:06:10,736 --> 01:06:12,336
Speaker 3: thinking about the number of people watching?

1210
01:06:12,616 --> 01:06:16,016
Speaker 1: No, not at all. No, if I could give any insight,

1211
01:06:16,936 --> 01:06:20,976
Speaker 1: when you're with a highly skilled interviewer, you learn to

1212
01:06:21,066 --> 01:06:23,846
Speaker 1: just let them lead you where they want to go.

1213
01:06:25,186 --> 01:06:28,426
Speaker 1: Most interviewers are not that skilled. And so you learn

1214
01:06:29,126 --> 01:06:31,206
Speaker 1: in your media years to kind of push it where

1215
01:06:31,246 --> 01:06:32,046
Speaker 1: you want it to go.

1216
01:06:32,566 --> 01:06:32,786
Speaker 3: Yes.

1217
01:06:33,446 --> 01:06:35,746
Speaker 1: Great interviewers have a way of leading you and you

1218
01:06:35,766 --> 01:06:36,766
Speaker 1: just let them lead you.

1219
01:06:37,206 --> 01:06:37,506
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1220
01:06:37,936 --> 01:06:39,616
Speaker 1: You have to trust that they're not going to try

1221
01:06:39,636 --> 01:06:44,216
Speaker 1: to pull a gotcha. So with somebody like Howard, I

1222
01:06:44,256 --> 01:06:48,476
Speaker 1: trust Howard, and I'll tell things to Howard I wouldn't

1223
01:06:48,496 --> 01:06:50,056
Speaker 1: say to anybody. Why?

1224
01:06:50,456 --> 01:06:52,296
Speaker 3: To me, that thinks, okay, he knows how many people

1225
01:06:52,336 --> 01:06:53,876
Speaker 3: are listening, and he knows this is going to get

1226
01:06:53,896 --> 01:06:54,816
Speaker 3: a lot of airplay.

1227
01:06:55,336 --> 01:06:56,836
Speaker 1: No, no. I know he's not going to ask me

1228
01:06:56,856 --> 01:06:58,236
Speaker 1: the fucked-up follow-up question.

1229
01:06:59,536 --> 01:07:00,056
Speaker 3: Oh, what do you mean?

1230
01:07:00,616 --> 01:07:02,456
Speaker 1: He's not going to ask me the clickbait question that

1231
01:07:02,496 --> 01:07:07,876
Speaker 1: would follow the revelation. Huh. It's just call it a

1232
01:07:07,916 --> 01:07:12,126
Speaker 1: certain type of trust. Yeah. I do remember, like, when

1233
01:07:12,146 --> 01:07:16,046
Speaker 1: I was on Joe's show last time, seven years ago,

1234
01:07:16,146 --> 01:07:18,366
Speaker 1: I told him a story about finding a sawed-off shotgun

1235
01:07:18,386 --> 01:07:22,226
Speaker 1: under my father's bed, which my father heard and had

1236
01:07:22,246 --> 01:07:25,706
Speaker 1: a funny response to, but that's not a story I

1237
01:07:25,706 --> 01:07:27,426
Speaker 1: would have ever told, but I also felt I could

1238
01:07:27,466 --> 01:07:28,086
Speaker 1: tell it's Joe.

1239
01:07:28,646 --> 01:07:29,756
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he laughed.

1240
01:07:30,296 --> 01:07:32,516
Speaker 1: Oh, calculus in my mind, like, oh, this will be good.

1241
01:07:32,536 --> 01:07:32,796
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1242
01:07:33,936 --> 01:07:34,176
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1243
01:07:34,486 --> 01:07:35,826
Speaker 1: Let me put it to you this way. If I

1244
01:07:35,906 --> 01:07:40,146
Speaker 1: really wanted attention, just imagine the things that I know

1245
01:07:40,186 --> 01:07:41,186
Speaker 1: that I have never said.

1246
01:07:41,946 --> 01:07:43,296
Speaker 3: Right, which you're saving for the book.

1247
01:07:43,646 --> 01:07:46,056
Speaker 1: I'm talking about things I know about famous people that

1248
01:07:46,096 --> 01:07:46,756
Speaker 1: I've never said.

1249
01:07:47,356 --> 01:07:48,536
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I want to know.

1250
01:07:49,496 --> 01:07:52,476
Speaker 1: Well, I want to know all that shit.

1251
01:07:54,696 --> 01:07:56,756
Speaker 3: So are you actually writing a book? Is that something

1252
01:07:56,776 --> 01:07:57,836
Speaker 3: you're actively working on?

1253
01:07:57,856 --> 01:07:59,856
Speaker 1: In fact, just before I came on with you, I

1254
01:07:59,896 --> 01:08:02,576
Speaker 1: was working on my book. I was I was fixing

1255
01:08:02,636 --> 01:08:05,156
Speaker 1: a whole batch of really poor writing. But yeah, I've

1256
01:08:05,176 --> 01:08:07,256
Speaker 1: been working on my book. My hope is to finish

1257
01:08:07,296 --> 01:08:09,896
Speaker 1: this year a book basically between the ages of zero

1258
01:08:09,936 --> 01:08:13,286
Speaker 1: and 19. Wow. Before I would take some time off

1259
01:08:13,326 --> 01:08:15,846
Speaker 1: and then start, you know, 19 onto whatever.

1260
01:08:16,406 --> 01:08:20,286
Speaker 3: How are you remembering things? And do you trust your memory?

1261
01:08:21,306 --> 01:08:25,896
Speaker 1: I have an insane memory. I do. I don't know

1262
01:08:25,916 --> 01:08:30,146
Speaker 1: if that's inborn, but I just do. I think part

1263
01:08:30,166 --> 01:08:32,666
Speaker 1: of it was wanting to remember all of these things

1264
01:08:32,686 --> 01:08:34,666
Speaker 1: that had been done to me in some sort of

1265
01:08:35,406 --> 01:08:39,186
Speaker 1: need to catalog. I don't know, like the man in

1266
01:08:39,206 --> 01:08:41,046
Speaker 1: the iron mask or something. I felt like I needed

1267
01:08:41,066 --> 01:08:41,966
Speaker 1: to write it all down.

1268
01:08:42,486 --> 01:08:42,786
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1269
01:08:43,466 --> 01:08:45,216
Speaker 1: So I did in my brain and I kept it.

1270
01:08:45,926 --> 01:08:48,886
Speaker 1: Even my wife recently said, it'll be good if you

1271
01:08:48,916 --> 01:08:51,356
Speaker 1: finish this so you can finally let these things go.

1272
01:08:51,376 --> 01:08:53,516
Speaker 3: Do you think that'll happen?

1273
01:08:53,536 --> 01:08:56,476
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. Because I think it's

1274
01:08:56,516 --> 01:08:58,696
Speaker 1: the act of putting something out in public that creates

1275
01:08:58,716 --> 01:09:02,226
Speaker 1: the alchemy for that. As long as it's private, it

1276
01:09:02,266 --> 01:09:05,666
Speaker 1: sort of remains kind of a secret. And having done

1277
01:09:05,686 --> 01:09:08,346
Speaker 1: it before publicly, like we were talking about with the

1278
01:09:08,406 --> 01:09:10,856
Speaker 1: album Siamese Dreams. I do know that there's something that happens.

1279
01:09:10,956 --> 01:09:15,456
Speaker 1: It puts an electrical charge in the air. And if

1280
01:09:15,516 --> 01:09:18,476
Speaker 1: it's true, it puts a really interesting electrical charge in

1281
01:09:18,496 --> 01:09:24,416
Speaker 1: the air. Because again, it's authentic. I know, well, I

1282
01:09:24,456 --> 01:09:27,136
Speaker 1: don't know, but I assume, or I feel, that when

1283
01:09:27,176 --> 01:09:30,116
Speaker 1: people do read my book, or books, they're going to

1284
01:09:30,136 --> 01:09:32,656
Speaker 1: have a hard time believing a lot of what they'll read.

1285
01:09:33,136 --> 01:09:35,316
Speaker 1: But I know that this stuff happened. So that's all

1286
01:09:35,336 --> 01:09:36,916
Speaker 1: I know. But there are times when I'm writing it

1287
01:09:36,976 --> 01:09:39,086
Speaker 1: and I'll read it back. I'm like, wow, it's hard

1288
01:09:39,096 --> 01:09:42,286
Speaker 1: to believe that this stuff actually happened. Because sometimes I'll

1289
01:09:42,306 --> 01:09:47,206
Speaker 1: read my wife passages and I'll kind of get her reaction.

1290
01:09:47,226 --> 01:09:49,466
Speaker 1: And I'm like, it's crazy that this actually happened. She's like,

1291
01:09:49,506 --> 01:09:52,066
Speaker 1: I know you've had a crazy life, but there it is.

1292
01:09:52,086 --> 01:09:52,526
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1293
01:09:53,226 --> 01:09:53,526
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1294
01:09:54,926 --> 01:09:56,566
Speaker 3: Is there anything else you want to talk about as

1295
01:09:56,606 --> 01:09:59,096
Speaker 3: far as the show, about your process?

1296
01:09:59,616 --> 01:10:02,556
Speaker 1: I really appreciate the depth of this discussion. It's a

1297
01:10:02,576 --> 01:10:05,716
Speaker 1: lot of fun. And yeah, I hope people enjoy the

1298
01:10:05,736 --> 01:10:08,196
Speaker 1: show if they see it. It's a unique entity. And

1299
01:10:08,356 --> 01:10:11,196
Speaker 1: I think it's very much like my music. It'll win

1300
01:10:11,236 --> 01:10:13,676
Speaker 1: if it's unique and it'll lose because it's too unique

1301
01:10:13,736 --> 01:10:16,616
Speaker 1: or something, you know? And I'm okay with that because

1302
01:10:17,176 --> 01:10:18,556
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to do it any other way, I

1303
01:10:18,576 --> 01:10:20,716
Speaker 1: think is what I'm after. Yeah, it's fun.

1304
01:10:21,076 --> 01:10:22,636
Speaker 3: Seems like you're having a lot of fun and seems

1305
01:10:22,656 --> 01:10:25,146
Speaker 3: like you're comfortable. I like your cue cards.

1306
01:10:27,026 --> 01:10:31,356
Speaker 1: I'd like to ditch the cue cards if possible. But also,

1307
01:10:31,376 --> 01:10:33,856
Speaker 1: I don't want to take my eyes off the guests.

1308
01:10:35,476 --> 01:10:39,676
Speaker 1: You know, they're rude about looking away. So I don't know.

1309
01:10:39,716 --> 01:10:42,156
Speaker 1: I haven't figured out how to sort that out.

1310
01:10:42,676 --> 01:10:44,666
Speaker 3: It's a lot. It's like, you know, you're balancing a

1311
01:10:44,706 --> 01:10:48,046
Speaker 3: lot because you're trying to. Like you said, expert interviewers

1312
01:10:48,546 --> 01:10:51,586
Speaker 3: can lead the guest in a way that they feel

1313
01:10:51,746 --> 01:10:52,866
Speaker 3: held and comfortable.

1314
01:10:53,246 --> 01:10:53,506
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1315
01:10:54,076 --> 01:10:54,276
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1316
01:10:54,396 --> 01:10:56,936
Speaker 1: And I go back to my own experiences where I

1317
01:10:56,956 --> 01:10:58,836
Speaker 1: would walk out of everything. Well, that was intense, but

1318
01:10:58,856 --> 01:11:00,856
Speaker 1: I enjoyed it. You know, kind of like this interview.

1319
01:11:00,896 --> 01:11:03,456
Speaker 1: It's like, it's all good. I don't mind. I don't

1320
01:11:03,496 --> 01:11:05,456
Speaker 1: mind walking up to certain lines. If I feel like

1321
01:11:05,496 --> 01:11:09,896
Speaker 1: the intention is to get to something fresh, you know, I,

1322
01:11:10,646 --> 01:11:12,746
Speaker 1: the other, the other experience of being held up as

1323
01:11:12,826 --> 01:11:16,526
Speaker 1: clickbait is a weird, weird thing. And I'll, I'll give

1324
01:11:16,566 --> 01:11:21,266
Speaker 1: you one little inside hint on that. I've learned to

1325
01:11:21,306 --> 01:11:25,096
Speaker 1: stop saying people's names. Yeah. I just don't say people's

1326
01:11:25,136 --> 01:11:28,416
Speaker 1: names because if I say their name, it's going to

1327
01:11:28,436 --> 01:11:29,076
Speaker 1: get click baited.

1328
01:11:29,556 --> 01:11:30,016
Speaker 3: Totally.

1329
01:11:30,256 --> 01:11:32,136
Speaker 1: Because they need the name for the click bait. So

1330
01:11:32,176 --> 01:11:35,196
Speaker 1: I just don't say the name anymore. Yeah. They just

1331
01:11:35,216 --> 01:11:36,956
Speaker 1: made me a better, I don't want to say liar,

1332
01:11:36,996 --> 01:11:40,036
Speaker 1: but they just made me a better evader. You know,

1333
01:11:40,056 --> 01:11:41,296
Speaker 1: I've just become more evasive.

1334
01:11:41,736 --> 01:11:45,096
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I get that. But it's smart. I would

1335
01:11:45,136 --> 01:11:45,736
Speaker 3: do the same thing.

1336
01:11:45,856 --> 01:11:46,176
Speaker 1: I wouldn't.

1337
01:11:46,636 --> 01:11:47,536
Speaker 3: Tell anyone anything.

1338
01:11:49,116 --> 01:11:51,376
Speaker 1: I would be private. I kind of like the public

1339
01:11:51,436 --> 01:11:53,986
Speaker 1: running into the wall part of it. That part doesn't

1340
01:11:54,006 --> 01:11:57,306
Speaker 1: bother me. It's when it gets interpreted into something that

1341
01:11:57,326 --> 01:11:58,466
Speaker 1: it isn't. Right.

1342
01:11:59,266 --> 01:12:01,226
Speaker 3: Would you ever have anybody on the show and just

1343
01:12:01,266 --> 01:12:03,546
Speaker 3: like maybe somebody who you had beef with in the

1344
01:12:03,586 --> 01:12:05,706
Speaker 3: past or maybe still have some sort of issue with,

1345
01:12:06,126 --> 01:12:08,186
Speaker 3: would you ever have them on and just like argue

1346
01:12:08,226 --> 01:12:08,606
Speaker 3: with them?

1347
01:12:10,466 --> 01:12:13,556
Speaker 1: It would depend on the subject. For example, it would

1348
01:12:13,576 --> 01:12:16,596
Speaker 1: be really interesting to have a discussion with Tom Morello

1349
01:12:16,636 --> 01:12:20,636
Speaker 1: about politics, but only if we lived in a society

1350
01:12:20,676 --> 01:12:23,276
Speaker 1: that would welcome the discussion and not penalize either one

1351
01:12:23,296 --> 01:12:25,296
Speaker 1: of us for having the discussion.

1352
01:12:25,576 --> 01:12:25,796
Speaker 3: Yes.

1353
01:12:26,116 --> 01:12:28,736
Speaker 1: I believe in that society. So Tom and I can

1354
01:12:28,776 --> 01:12:32,356
Speaker 1: only have that discussion in private. And I think for

1355
01:12:32,376 --> 01:12:33,876
Speaker 1: somebody who would roll their eyes and say, why do

1356
01:12:33,956 --> 01:12:37,056
Speaker 1: I want to listen to musicians talk about politics? I

1357
01:12:37,076 --> 01:12:39,936
Speaker 1: think that's a fair point. But musicians understand what it's

1358
01:12:39,956 --> 01:12:43,036
Speaker 1: like to stand behind the wizard's curtains. Musicians have access

1359
01:12:43,076 --> 01:12:44,896
Speaker 1: to a lot of information that most people would not

1360
01:12:44,996 --> 01:12:48,386
Speaker 1: know that musicians have access to. Tom even talks in

1361
01:12:48,426 --> 01:12:50,826
Speaker 1: his interview about how he worked for a sitting U.S. senator.

1362
01:12:50,846 --> 01:12:52,426
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1363
01:12:52,506 --> 01:12:53,866
Speaker 1: That's an uncommon experience.

1364
01:12:53,906 --> 01:12:55,206
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was really interesting.

1365
01:12:55,386 --> 01:12:58,506
Speaker 1: I know some really highly placed people in the political sphere,

1366
01:12:58,526 --> 01:13:00,146
Speaker 1: and I know a lot of stuff that I wouldn't

1367
01:13:00,186 --> 01:13:03,356
Speaker 1: talk about because it's private information, but it certainly gives

1368
01:13:03,376 --> 01:13:06,816
Speaker 1: me a perspective on maybe the political world that most

1369
01:13:06,856 --> 01:13:09,686
Speaker 1: people wouldn't have. But would I ever discuss that in public?

1370
01:13:09,886 --> 01:13:12,786
Speaker 1: No fucking way. Because we don't live in a society

1371
01:13:12,826 --> 01:13:15,066
Speaker 1: that can maturely sit by and listen to two people

1372
01:13:15,126 --> 01:13:18,786
Speaker 1: talk about political perspectives in an open way that you go, okay,

1373
01:13:19,046 --> 01:13:20,246
Speaker 1: I hear you. Okay. That's good.

1374
01:13:20,326 --> 01:13:20,506
Speaker 2: Good.

1375
01:13:20,786 --> 01:13:23,246
Speaker 1: I learned something. No, it's like, oh, you're good. You're bad.

1376
01:13:23,886 --> 01:13:24,106
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1377
01:13:24,546 --> 01:13:27,126
Speaker 1: And again, back to the Joe Rogan thing. It's like,

1378
01:13:28,066 --> 01:13:29,646
Speaker 1: I mean, when I see, when I see my own

1379
01:13:29,726 --> 01:13:33,536
Speaker 1: fans writing words like misinformation, I mean, that's straight out

1380
01:13:33,576 --> 01:13:35,556
Speaker 1: of the CIA, buddy. You know what I mean? It's like,

1381
01:13:36,336 --> 01:13:38,826
Speaker 1: I do buzzwords for a living. You know, rat in

1382
01:13:38,846 --> 01:13:41,406
Speaker 1: a cage. You know what I mean? It's like, you

1383
01:13:41,426 --> 01:13:44,346
Speaker 1: can't play meme word games with somebody like me. That's

1384
01:13:44,386 --> 01:13:47,906
Speaker 1: what I do for a living. This idea that you're

1385
01:13:47,926 --> 01:13:51,486
Speaker 1: going to use words against me. Like, the vague word

1386
01:13:51,506 --> 01:13:55,816
Speaker 1: of misinformation. It's like, what does that mean? It's the

1387
01:13:55,856 --> 01:13:58,856
Speaker 1: perfect word. Because nobody knows what it means, but everybody

1388
01:13:58,896 --> 01:14:06,336
Speaker 1: knows what it means. Yeah. So, I would love it.

1389
01:14:07,046 --> 01:14:09,086
Speaker 1: So I would have to be, in the spirit of

1390
01:14:09,106 --> 01:14:11,566
Speaker 1: your question, it would have to be something that has

1391
01:14:11,586 --> 01:14:16,066
Speaker 1: of no consequence. Like arguing over what's the better Judas

1392
01:14:16,126 --> 01:14:17,206
Speaker 1: Priest album or something.

1393
01:14:17,866 --> 01:14:18,366
Speaker 3: That'd be fun.

1394
01:14:18,926 --> 01:14:22,206
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure. Is that a business model? I don't know. Yeah.

1395
01:14:23,726 --> 01:14:25,576
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much, Billy, for coming on. I

1396
01:14:25,756 --> 01:14:26,636
Speaker 3: love talking to you.

1397
01:14:27,056 --> 01:14:28,256
Speaker 1: Thank you. God bless.

1398
01:14:28,476 --> 01:14:31,616
Speaker 3: And I can't wait for more of your episodes. Can't

1399
01:14:31,636 --> 01:14:33,096
Speaker 3: wait to see where you go as an interviewer.

1400
01:14:33,816 --> 01:14:35,416
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. God bless you. Thank you.

1401
01:14:38,836 --> 01:14:41,036
Speaker 2: Thanks for checking out Broken Record on YouTube. If you

1402
01:14:41,076 --> 01:14:42,416
Speaker 2: want to listen to us on the go, be sure

1403
01:14:42,436 --> 01:14:45,456
Speaker 2: to subscribe to Broken Record wherever you listen to podcasts.