WEBVTT - 11. Jon's Theory (Part 2) 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.240 Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:07.320 not be suitable for all listeners. This episode also discusses suicide. 0:00:07.600 --> 0:00:10.600 You can reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:18.360 nine to eighty eight from iHeartRadio and Neon thirty three. 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:22.319 I'm John Walzac and this is Missing in Arizona, the 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.400 story of a man who disappeared after allegedly killing his 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:28.680 wife and kids, blowing up their suburban home, and escaping 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:32.400 into the wilderness. Twenty three years later, I'm hunting Robert 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:42.240 Fisher and I need your help, Part two without further 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:46.800 ado Option number one escaped and is alive. This is 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:50.680 what I believe. It's also what many lead investigators believe. 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:53.880 In two thousand and six, less than three months before 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:57.240 he dies, the first case detective John Kirkham tells the 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:01.040 Arizona Republic, quote, no one believes Fisher's dead in a cave. 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:03.720 We would have found some traits of his body by now. 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:08.280 In twenty eleven, FBI agent Bob Caldwell says, quote, all 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:10.240 our evidence has been that he's the kind of guy 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:14.160 who wouldn't go kill himself. He's out there hunting, fishing, chewing, 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:17.959 tobacco with a sore back. In twenty fourteen, then Detective 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:21.200 Hugh Lockerbie says that Fisher is likely alive somewhere in 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:23.560 the West where he can hunt fish and keep a 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.920 low profile. The FBI keeps Fisher on its ten most 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:30.440 Wanted lists until twenty twenty one, which makes sense only 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:33.600 if you think he's alive. Many of the people who 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:36.840 know fisherre best also think he's alive. Of the top 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:41.400 thirty I interview, including friends, coworkers, and investigators, twenty believe 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:44.800 Fisher is alive, seven think he's dead. Three are fifty 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:47.720 to fifty. Not only do I believe Fisher is alive, 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:51.320 but I think he premeditated the murders, planning them in detail. 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:56.000 In advance, I interview three familicide experts. Fifty nine out 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:59.840 of fifty nine cases David Wilson studied were premeditated. Neil 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:03.520 Wautale tells me that premeditation is a strong element in 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:07.800 the majority of cases. Taylor Oathouse says, quote, the overwhelming 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:12.520 majority of familicides are premeditated. In the final months before 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:16.120 the murders, Robert Fisher, a control freak, is rapidly losing 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:20.240 control he's in pain popping pills. He needs surgery, but 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:24.160 is terrified it'll paralyze him. He catches an STI likely 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:28.080 gonnorrhea or chlamydia while cheating on Mary again. He grows paranoid, 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:32.720 Scared Mary will find out. He starts to withdraw from church, friends, 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:36.239 the gym, and then Mary finds out she got syphilis 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:41.119 from him. The spark On April eighth, two thousand and one, 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:44.440 only thirty six hours before the murders, Mary speaks to 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:46.360 her friend Beth Anderson at church. 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:49.200 We were standing out on one of the balconies in 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:51.639 one of the buildings and I just said, hey, how 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:54.160 was your week? And she just looked at me and 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:57.200 she said not very good. And I said, oh my gosh, 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:59.440 are you okay? Like, are you sick or what? She's like, 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.520 I just can't do this anymore. I can't do this 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:05.079 anymore with Robert. I'm going to end it. I don't 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:07.000 care what I have to do to get out, but 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:10.560 I am done. I am done. I was like, okay. 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:13.160 It really kind of took me by surprise. I knew 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:16.680 she wasn't happy for a long time, but I just said, 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:19.040 I'll say a prayer for you. I didn't know what 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:19.680 else to do. 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:23.280 Beth sees Mary again the following night, around nine thirty 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:25.840 pm at church, right before the murders. 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:27.800 I asked her how she was doing, based on our 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.639 conversation the day before, and she said, you know, I'm 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:32.800 hanging in there. But she kind of like made a 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:34.920 motion with her hands, like we can't talk about this 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:38.160 right now. I mean, Bobby was nearby, not right there, 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:40.240 but nearby, and I knew. I think it was just 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:42.560 weighing so heavy on her. I don't know if she 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:45.360 was afraid she would start crying or what. So I said, 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:46.920 I get it, I get it. I said, I just 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:49.440 want you to know I'm praying for you, and she said, 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:49.840 thank you. 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:50.680 I need it. 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:54.760 Remember a few weeks earlier, Mary's friend Kim Davidson stopped 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:58.080 by the Fisher House. Mary's hand was injured. She acted weird. 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:01.240 Six days before the murders, Robert showed up at church 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:04.920 looking for Mary and the kids. Mary seemed afraid of him. 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.560 Beyond confiding in friends. Did Mary take any steps to 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:12.640 leave Robert? Maybe police find a pamphlet for budget Mini 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:16.360 storage in her abandoned forerunner. Was she thinking about moving out. 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:19.279 Was she afraid Robert would hurt or even kill her? 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:21.800 The night of the murders? There's a hammer in the 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:26.520 master bedroom. Robert is OCD, a minimalist, obsessed with cleanliness 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:30.000 and order. He doesn't normally leave anything lying around, let 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.360 alone a hammer. Did Mary hide it as a defensive weapon? 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:36.480 Did she buy a twenty five caliber pistol for protection? 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.640 The caliber bullet according to one police report with which 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:42.480 she was shot a gun Robert wasn't known to own. 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:46.719 There's much I can't answer, However, here's what I think happened. 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:49.880 My theory. To be clear, this is the line between 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.920 facts and theory. What follows this theory informed by fact? 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:57.800 Robert knows it's over. Mary's going to divorce him, but 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:00.960 he thought he could salvage things. And Mary finds out 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:04.560 he gave her syphilis. She knows he cheated again. This 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:08.679 is the spark. She confronts Robert, and now he really knows. 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:13.159 Game over, a final loss of control. Sixty six percent 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:16.719 of familicides are triggered by family breakdown. Robert is about 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:20.200 to lose his family. Soon, he'll be alone, in pain, 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:25.760 facing surgery, possible disability, public humiliation, A failed husband, a 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:28.680 failed father. As soon as he knows Mary's going to 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.400 leave him, he starts debating what to do. In the 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:33.840 weeks leading up to the murders, he makes a choice, 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.719 burn it all down literally. He decides to kill Mary, 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:42.080 wreak his house to explode, and critically escape, start a 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:45.719 new life, purge the old, rise from the ashes. He 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:49.479 chooses to kill his kids too. To him, death is mercy. 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:53.400 They'll suffer more if they live motherless orphans of murder. 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:56.839 The murders likely take place early on April tenth, two 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:00.000 thousand and one, only three days before Robber's fortieth birthday, 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:03.840 which I don't think is a coincidence. Robert plans everything 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:07.320 meticulously he can cox a cover story and starts to 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:10.200 act it out once he escapes. He wants people to 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:12.800 think he died in the wild. That way, at some 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:16.000 point they'll stop looking for him, or at least some 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:20.039 people will. According to former FBI agent Bob Caldwell, a 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:22.640 week or two before the murders, Robert tells his mom 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:26.200 that he's lugging seven hundred pounds of supplies into the wilderness. 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:29.040 Okay, seven hundred pounds of supplies. What did he take 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:32.080 where would he have deposited it at, And being as 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:35.000 Robert has a bad back, it's not like he was 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:38.279 hiking over a mountain pulling all this stuff up, and 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:40.680 it had to be somewhere he could easily get to 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:42.680 it and deposit wherever he was going to put it, 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:44.800 whether he could drive up to it or is a 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:46.160 very short walk. 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:49.800 Or he lied. He never actually transported seven hundred pounds 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:52.840 of supplies into the woods right before the murders. No 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.599 one ever found any of his belongings, let alone an 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:59.600 easily accessible secret seven hundred pounds stash. It makes more 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:02.200 sense to me that this is a red herring. Mom, 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.560 I just drag seven hundred pounds of supplies into the wilderness, which, 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:10.080 of course, after the murders, his mom tells police. On 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:13.680 April ninth, at popular outdoor outfitters, Robert makes a big 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:16.560 show of asking Ian, the eighteen year old store clerk, 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:19.720 the last person to see him alive, how to purify water. 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:22.840 This is only a few hours before the murders, so 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.680 either Robert hasn't planned them yet unlikely, or again it's 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:30.320 a red herring. Mister cashier, how do you purify water? 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:33.680 Ian gets the impression that Robert is planning on camping 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:36.240 for quite a long time. Robert tells him he's going 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.560 to draw water from a cattle hole. He's worried about viruses. 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.640 At seven point fifty five, he swipes his credit card. 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:45.720 He and Brittany head home. Mary and Bobby get back 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:48.520 around nine point forty. A neighbor hears Robert and Mary 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.840 fighting around ten. At ten forty two, Robert's caught on 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:55.200 camera at a nearby ATM. To me, this seems like 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.000 part of the show. He knows he'll be filmed at 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:00.600 the ATM. I'll circle back to this in a bit. 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:04.160 After the ATM, no one knows if Robert goes home 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.600 or flees. That's the old story, But I found two 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:10.800 new witnesses who see Mary's for runner at the Fisher 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.640 House early on April tenth, a neighbor at three thirty am, 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:18.040 and a newspaper delivery man, Bud Wolf, at five thirty. 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:22.360 So after the ATM, Robert returns home, though it's unclear 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:24.880 whether or not he stops anywhere else before doing so. 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:27.560 By the time he gets back, Mary and the kids 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:30.520 are likely asleep. The kids usually go to bed by nine, 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:33.960 Mary by ten. If Robert heads home directly, he's there 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:36.959 by ten fifty pm on April ninth. At one thirty 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:40.160 am on April tenth, his cell phone powers down. It 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:43.440 never turns back on. My best guess is that Robert 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:46.600 commits the murder shortly before shutting off his phone, so 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.880 sometime around one am on April tenth, and then he 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:51.679 remains at the house for at least four and a 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:55.120 half hours. He's still there at five thirty, but gone 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:58.840 by seven thirty. He likely flees sometime between five thirty 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:02.120 when Bud Wolf sees Forerunner and six zh three when 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:05.920 the sun rises. The murders are brutal, but Robert is 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.679 used to gore. He has military training. As a firefighter 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:13.840 and EMT he responded to bloody accidents and suicides, including 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:16.080 one in which someone killed himself in a car and 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:19.439 it burst into flames. He then worked for thirteen years 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:23.840 in stressful hospital settings. His former coworker, John Hatfield tells 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:25.400 me that people like Robert they have. 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:28.040 A low anxiety level. When things need to get done. 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:30.000 You just kind of know what you're going to do 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:33.360 because you're trained, you're educated, you know what the process is, 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:36.880 so it's almost reflexive. You don't have to think about it, 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:38.880 you just can do it. It's almost like you're stepping 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:40.840 back and even if though people may be on a 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:43.200 verge of death, you know that you're doing what you 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:46.480 need to do to prevent it. Through training, the anxiety 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:47.640 level is just not there. 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:50.520 A Fisher family friend who doesn't want to be named, 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:53.320 tells me a story that illustrates, in a bizarre way, 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:56.600 how calm Robert can remain under pressure. Sometime in the 0:09:56.640 --> 0:10:00.240 eighties or nineties, when hair was big and full of spray, Robert, 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:03.079 Mary and some friends were sitting around the campfire making 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:06.800 s'mores when Mary's hair caught on fire. Quote it wasn't 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:09.840 like flaming, but it was on fire, and Robert stood 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:12.120 next to her and was just looking at her. I'm like, 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:14.920 he's a fricking fireman, what's going on with that? Like 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:17.600 put out her hair fire, but someone else did it 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.640 with their jacket, so he froze. He was just looking 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:24.120 with interest, very cool and collected. That's it. It was 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:28.080 really weird. It's ironic that this man so desperate to 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:31.480 be a hero, does nothing when his wife's head literally 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.560 catches on fire. All this to say, even though I 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.959 doubt anyone but the most callous sociopath can murder their 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:41.280 family and not feel anxiety. Robert is as prepared as 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:44.559 anyone to handle stress and gore, both via his training 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:50.440 military firefighter, EMT hospital hunter and his personality. He doesn't 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:54.840 buckle under pressure. He remains calm under fire, observing fire, 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:59.280 lighting fire. He can execute his plan. His family just 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:30.199 do what has to be done. After the murders, Robert 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.720 riggs the house to explode. Why please say he wants 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:38.079 to destroy evidence. I don't buy it again, Military firefighter, 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:43.160 EMT hospitals, Robert must know a police will immediately suspect 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:47.200 me and be the fire won't destroy everything. If he's 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.400 rational enough to successfully pull off a triple murder, blow 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.160 up his house, and escape for twenty three years, he's 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:56.679 rational enough to think these simple logical thoughts. I think 0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:59.520 he blows up the house for two reasons. First, as 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:04.199 a violent, forceful purge, detonating the past to start over fresh, 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:07.800 incinerating who he was so he can rise anew. According 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:11.400 to familicide expert David Wilson, annihilators like Robert want to 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:14.960 demonstrate power first over their family and later over the 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:15.840 family's demise. 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:19.840 It will be dramatic. There's an element of staging. Usually 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:24.520 staging behavior is very important. Has rarely discussed how they 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.040 want the bodies to be found in a particular way. 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:30.080 They want to tell a story. 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:34.040 In this case, I'm still in control. My family didn't 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.880 break up. I destroyed it, but I showed mercy. Everyone 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:40.800 was asleep when I killed them, as quickly as possible 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:44.000 so they wouldn't suffer. And now I'm blowing up my house, 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:47.400 burning it down, getting rid of the past, starting over, 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.480 and this a fresh start. Is the second reason why 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.600 I think Fisher blows up his house to destroy photos 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.840 and videos that can help police find him. John List 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:01.520 did something similar minus the fire, after killing his family 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.000 in nineteen seventy one. He cut his face out of 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:06.720 every photo he could find. It's one of the reasons 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:09.920 he successfully escaped and lived on the lamb for eighteen years. 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:12.920 In two thousand and one, when Robert kills his family. 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.480 There are no smartphones. You take pictures, you develop them. 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:21.480 It's pricey. Choose your shots wisely. Fisher is smart. After 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.160 two years of research, I've only been able to find 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:26.960 twenty eight photos of him as an adult, and some 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:30.600 grainy video. I'm unaware of any surviving photos or video 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.920 of Fisher taken after nineteen ninety nine. Now, if my 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:37.760 theory's correct, Fisher makes one big mistake. He leaves his 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.720 fire safe locked. The safe works, it protects some photos 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:45.920 and videos, a diabolical advertisement for the efficacy of the safe. 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.600 I suppose I'll return to this in a later episode. 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:53.120 After rigging the house to explode, Robert flees. Where does 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:56.120 he go? I don't know, but few people think he 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:59.760 drives immediately to the forerunner spot. When police later find it, 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:03.439 they also find his dog Blue. Patty Blackmore, the vet 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.400 who rescues Blue, and her friend Samantha Wright, who's there 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:08.920 that day too. Think Blues alone in the woods for 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:10.400 only a short amount of time. 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:12.720 If he had gone without food and water for ten days, 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:14.480 he would have been a lot sicker than he was. 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:18.440 He was hungry, but he wasn't amazing. He'd probably been 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:19.600 there there too. 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:22.000 Yeah, So you don't think he had been there full 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:22.600 ten days? 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:25.960 I don't think so, No, because he was still pretty 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:28.280 I mean, yeah, he wasn't amazing. 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:31.000 He looked very, very healthy. Yes, he was hungry, but 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:33.800 not ten days, starting without the water, because he by 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.480 that point he would have been dragging or dead, you know, 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:37.640 especially without the water. 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:40.040 If Blue is alone for only a day or two, 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:43.440 where was he before? Does Robert hide somewhere else after 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:47.480 the murders and then abandoned the suv and Blue? Finally, 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:51.600 why does Robert choose this particular spot? Let me start 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:55.080 with that. I think Robert carefully selects the Forerunner spot 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:57.800 as part of his plan to trick law enforcement, the public, 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:00.160 and the media into believing he walked into the the 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:03.080 wild and died. He's supposed to go camping at this 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:05.960 exact spot only a few days after the murders with 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.120 family and friends, including John and Mary Beth Rodin. 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.080 I think that was a big clue that he gave us, 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:12.000 and no one would listen. 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:14.840 What do you mean he had a specific spot that 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:17.800 he wanted to go. Normally, it didn't matter too much. Okay, 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:20.880 you picked the spot, and being John picked the spot, 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:24.720 we go places. I knew at this particular time that 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.560 this was the spot, and it's really wanted to camp 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:28.920 with this one spot. 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:31.360 And because I knew that was weird, I went to 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:34.760 the police and said, hey, because of this, I know 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:36.800 we need to look. I said it will go with 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:38.760 you and they said, no, we can't. We're not going 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:40.760 to do that, and that's where they found the car. 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:44.120 Jim road In. John's brother supports this claim. 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:46.120 Mary Beth said go look for him there. 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:47.600 They didn't do that for ten days. 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:51.720 Robert's friend and former co worker, Ashley's Arsty also points 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:53.240 police in the right direction. 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.400 If he's alive, and if he's in Arizona, you'll find 0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:59.000 him in northern Arizona told him a goot. 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:02.960 Young friend and boss Lori Greenbeck says the same thing. 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:05.440 When you knew that he was missing, did you try 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:07.600 to tell the authorities to look in that area? 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:09.480 We did tell them. 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:12.600 One of Robert's friends and co workers, who doesn't want 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:15.840 to be named, also tells police early on to look 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:19.360 for Robert at the spot where they later find the Forerunner. 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.160 Because he used it as a staging area. 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:23.160 But in my mind it was how close it was 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:24.080 to the reservation. 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:26.880 I'll get back to that in a minute, but first 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:30.320 ask yourself, why does Robert abandon the suv at a 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:32.960 spot where he's supposed to go camping in a few days, 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:37.560 A spot immediately pinpointed to police by multiple people. Now, 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:41.800 initially police don't actually search it. Instead, it's located nine 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.040 days later by Greg the itinerant camper. It would be 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:47.680 easy for me to criticize the cops here, but in 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:51.200 this case, I don't think that's fair. Arizona is huge. 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:56.800 They have limited manpower. They can't instantly examine every single lead. Instead, 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:00.200 focus on why Robert chooses this spot. I think he 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:03.240 thinks police will check it quickly based on tips from 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.600 people like the Rodents, the anonymous co worker, Ashley's Zarsky, 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:10.280 and Lori Greenbeck. They'll find the forerunner and then they'll 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:14.520 divert limited resources to this spot, thereby concentrating law enforcement 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:18.600 in the wrong area, giving Robert more time to escape. 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:21.920 He also chooses it because it's frustrating and time consuming 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:24.800 to search. It's only eight hundred and ninety feet from 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:28.280 the Ford Apache Indian Reservation stayed in local law enforcement 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:31.720 aren't permitted to cross onto tribal land without permission. They 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:35.199 get it, but it takes time. Furthermore, this spot is 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:38.480 only one hundred and fifty feet from Apex Cave. Police 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.919 immediately think Fisher's in the cave. Swat teams circle it. 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:44.600 They call on a plumber who snakes in a drain camera. 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:48.400 He's not here. They move on to other caves. He's 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:50.960 not in any of them. All of this takes time. 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.439 If you're on the run, if you want to complicate things, 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:56.760 if you want to buy time to escape, if you 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.320 want people to think you died in the wilderness. This 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:02.080 is the perfect spot, a spot where you're supposed to 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:04.640 go camping in a few days, a spot police will 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:08.199 likely search quickly. They'll find the forerunner next to an 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:11.159 Indian reservation and a cave in the middle of a 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:15.359 two point nine million acre national forest. It's brilliant, really. 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.160 Some people dispute that the forerunner's proximity to tribal land 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:23.320 complicates the search. They're wrong. Heala County Detective Brian Havy 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:26.400 tells me that it was, in fact an issue. Consider 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:30.080 a different incident from twenty eighteen. Two men parachute out 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:32.760 of a vintage World War Two plane above the reservation. 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.520 Their plane crashes into the forest below. They survive, but 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:39.399 can't find it. They put up a reward and end 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:41.919 up in a battle with the tribe, which, according to 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:45.640 the Arizona Republic says they're encouraging people to violate tribal 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:49.960 and federal law. The tribe is understandably very protective of 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:53.440 its land and sovereignty. I reach out to several officials 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:57.080 for comment. No one responds. I file a record's request 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:01.440 with tribal police. They deny it. Some people might say 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:04.120 that Robert chooses the fore Runner spot not as part 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:06.840 of an elaborate escape plan, but because he knows it, 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:11.720 he likes it. It's peaceful, remote, beautiful. This is where 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:15.199 he chooses to die by suicide. If he wants to escape, 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:18.840 he could keep driving to another state, even Mexico. The 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:22.240 border is only three hours away. So why does he 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:28.320 stop here? The simple answer Occam's razor to die. But 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:31.880 what about Blue? If Robert walks into the woods to die, 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:36.200 why does Blue stay with the fore erunner not Robert? Here? Again, 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:39.200 are Patty Blackmore at the vet and her friend Samantha Wright. 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:41.760 If Blue is outside and Robert Fisher wandered off, I 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:43.200 think Blue would have followed him. 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:46.600 Do you see any scenario in which Robert Fisher goes 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:49.000 into the wilderness and says stay and Blue does not 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:49.960 follow him. 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:53.880 No, it would have to be a really good dog 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:54.240 for that. 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:58.760 So now Robert the control freak is unsurprisingly strict with 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:01.760 his dogs. He trains them well. You see it in 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.159 home videos with his black lab Ruger. 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:15.480 Ruger Good, get right, Boke, Okay, stay, Rugers good dash, 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:16.160 good dog. 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:19.240 One of Robert's friends, who doesn't want to be named, 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:22.440 tells me a story. In the late eighties, Robert would 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:25.280 claim pots and pants in front of Ruger, training him 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:27.760 not to be jumpy around loud noises, not to be 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:30.639 gun shy. That way he could bring him hunting. The 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.200 friend had stunt blanks from a movie set. He gave 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:36.520 them to Robert one Friday night in his backyard. Robert 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:39.560 told Ruger to sit, and then he started shooting blanks. 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:42.480 At the time, there was a football game taking place 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.480 at a nearby high school. Police surrounded the house, the 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:49.240 friend said, and Robert came close to getting shot. This 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:53.600 incident has never been reported. In the nineties, after Ruger dies, 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:57.480 Robert gets Blue, an Australian cattle dog. By all accounts, 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:00.439 he also trains Blue well, but no dog can be 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:04.440 trained to remain indefinitely within suv as their owner wanders 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:07.639 into the woods to commit suicide. Here's a limit for 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:08.680 an expert opinion. 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:11.000 I consult doctor Amy Learn. 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:14.560 A board certified veterinary behaviorist and the owner of Animal 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:16.760 Behavior Wellness Center in Richmond, Virginia. 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:21.160 I completed an internship and a residency, had to write 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:25.280 a peer reviewed article and have that published, and log 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:28.800 tons and tons of hours in animal behavior study, different 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:33.880 topics like learning theory, psychiatry, medical neuroscience, different psychiatric medications, 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:37.080 learn about lots and lots of different species of animals. 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:38.760 And then here I am today. 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:45.280 And you see a world in which Robert Fisher walks 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:49.480 off to commit suicide and Blue just sits there by 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:51.240 the truck and doesn't follow home. 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:54.720 No, I can't, honestly, let's just say that this is 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:59.239 the best trained dog in the universe ever. And he 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:02.640