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Speaker 1: Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may

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Speaker 1: not be suitable for all listeners. This episode also discusses suicide.

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Speaker 1: You can reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at

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Speaker 1: nine to eighty eight from iHeartRadio and Neon thirty three.

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Speaker 1: I'm John Walzac and this is Missing in Arizona, the

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Speaker 1: story of a man who disappeared after allegedly killing his

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Speaker 1: wife and kids, blowing up their suburban home, and escaping

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Speaker 1: into the wilderness. Twenty three years later, I'm hunting Robert

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Speaker 1: Fisher and I need your help, Part two without further

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Speaker 1: ado Option number one escaped and is alive. This is

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Speaker 1: what I believe. It's also what many lead investigators believe.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and six, less than three months before

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Speaker 1: he dies, the first case detective John Kirkham tells the

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Speaker 1: Arizona Republic, quote, no one believes Fisher's dead in a cave.

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Speaker 1: We would have found some traits of his body by now.

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Speaker 1: In twenty eleven, FBI agent Bob Caldwell says, quote, all

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Speaker 1: our evidence has been that he's the kind of guy

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Speaker 1: who wouldn't go kill himself. He's out there hunting, fishing, chewing,

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Speaker 1: tobacco with a sore back. In twenty fourteen, then Detective

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Speaker 1: Hugh Lockerbie says that Fisher is likely alive somewhere in

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Speaker 1: the West where he can hunt fish and keep a

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Speaker 1: low profile. The FBI keeps Fisher on its ten most

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Speaker 1: Wanted lists until twenty twenty one, which makes sense only

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Speaker 1: if you think he's alive. Many of the people who

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Speaker 1: know fisherre best also think he's alive. Of the top

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Speaker 1: thirty I interview, including friends, coworkers, and investigators, twenty believe

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Speaker 1: Fisher is alive, seven think he's dead. Three are fifty

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Speaker 1: to fifty. Not only do I believe Fisher is alive,

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Speaker 1: but I think he premeditated the murders, planning them in detail.

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Speaker 1: In advance, I interview three familicide experts. Fifty nine out

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Speaker 1: of fifty nine cases David Wilson studied were premeditated. Neil

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Speaker 1: Wautale tells me that premeditation is a strong element in

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Speaker 1: the majority of cases. Taylor Oathouse says, quote, the overwhelming

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Speaker 1: majority of familicides are premeditated. In the final months before

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Speaker 1: the murders, Robert Fisher, a control freak, is rapidly losing

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Speaker 1: control he's in pain popping pills. He needs surgery, but

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Speaker 1: is terrified it'll paralyze him. He catches an STI likely

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Speaker 1: gonnorrhea or chlamydia while cheating on Mary again. He grows paranoid,

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Speaker 1: Scared Mary will find out. He starts to withdraw from church, friends,

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Speaker 1: the gym, and then Mary finds out she got syphilis

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Speaker 1: from him. The spark On April eighth, two thousand and one,

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Speaker 1: only thirty six hours before the murders, Mary speaks to

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Speaker 1: her friend Beth Anderson at church.

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Speaker 2: We were standing out on one of the balconies in

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Speaker 2: one of the buildings and I just said, hey, how

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Speaker 2: was your week? And she just looked at me and

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Speaker 2: she said not very good. And I said, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 2: are you okay? Like, are you sick or what? She's like,

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Speaker 2: I just can't do this anymore. I can't do this

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Speaker 2: anymore with Robert. I'm going to end it. I don't

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Speaker 2: care what I have to do to get out, but

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Speaker 2: I am done. I am done. I was like, okay.

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Speaker 2: It really kind of took me by surprise. I knew

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Speaker 2: she wasn't happy for a long time, but I just said,

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Speaker 2: I'll say a prayer for you. I didn't know what

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Speaker 2: else to do.

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Speaker 1: Beth sees Mary again the following night, around nine thirty

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Speaker 1: pm at church, right before the murders.

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Speaker 2: I asked her how she was doing, based on our

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Speaker 2: conversation the day before, and she said, you know, I'm

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Speaker 2: hanging in there. But she kind of like made a

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Speaker 2: motion with her hands, like we can't talk about this

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Speaker 2: right now. I mean, Bobby was nearby, not right there,

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Speaker 2: but nearby, and I knew. I think it was just

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Speaker 2: weighing so heavy on her. I don't know if she

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Speaker 2: was afraid she would start crying or what. So I said,

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Speaker 2: I get it, I get it. I said, I just

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Speaker 2: want you to know I'm praying for you, and she said,

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Speaker 2: thank you.

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Speaker 3: I need it.

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Speaker 1: Remember a few weeks earlier, Mary's friend Kim Davidson stopped

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Speaker 1: by the Fisher House. Mary's hand was injured. She acted weird.

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Speaker 1: Six days before the murders, Robert showed up at church

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Speaker 1: looking for Mary and the kids. Mary seemed afraid of him.

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Speaker 1: Beyond confiding in friends. Did Mary take any steps to

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Speaker 1: leave Robert? Maybe police find a pamphlet for budget Mini

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Speaker 1: storage in her abandoned forerunner. Was she thinking about moving out.

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Speaker 1: Was she afraid Robert would hurt or even kill her?

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Speaker 1: The night of the murders? There's a hammer in the

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Speaker 1: master bedroom. Robert is OCD, a minimalist, obsessed with cleanliness

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Speaker 1: and order. He doesn't normally leave anything lying around, let

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Speaker 1: alone a hammer. Did Mary hide it as a defensive weapon?

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Speaker 1: Did she buy a twenty five caliber pistol for protection?

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Speaker 1: The caliber bullet according to one police report with which

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Speaker 1: she was shot a gun Robert wasn't known to own.

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Speaker 1: There's much I can't answer, However, here's what I think happened.

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Speaker 1: My theory. To be clear, this is the line between

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Speaker 1: facts and theory. What follows this theory informed by fact?

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Speaker 1: Robert knows it's over. Mary's going to divorce him, but

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Speaker 1: he thought he could salvage things. And Mary finds out

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Speaker 1: he gave her syphilis. She knows he cheated again. This

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Speaker 1: is the spark. She confronts Robert, and now he really knows.

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Speaker 1: Game over, a final loss of control. Sixty six percent

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Speaker 1: of familicides are triggered by family breakdown. Robert is about

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Speaker 1: to lose his family. Soon, he'll be alone, in pain,

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Speaker 1: facing surgery, possible disability, public humiliation, A failed husband, a

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Speaker 1: failed father. As soon as he knows Mary's going to

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Speaker 1: leave him, he starts debating what to do. In the

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Speaker 1: weeks leading up to the murders, he makes a choice,

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Speaker 1: burn it all down literally. He decides to kill Mary,

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Speaker 1: wreak his house to explode, and critically escape, start a

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Speaker 1: new life, purge the old, rise from the ashes. He

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Speaker 1: chooses to kill his kids too. To him, death is mercy.

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Speaker 1: They'll suffer more if they live motherless orphans of murder.

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Speaker 1: The murders likely take place early on April tenth, two

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Speaker 1: thousand and one, only three days before Robber's fortieth birthday,

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Speaker 1: which I don't think is a coincidence. Robert plans everything

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Speaker 1: meticulously he can cox a cover story and starts to

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Speaker 1: act it out once he escapes. He wants people to

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Speaker 1: think he died in the wild. That way, at some

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Speaker 1: point they'll stop looking for him, or at least some

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Speaker 1: people will. According to former FBI agent Bob Caldwell, a

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Speaker 1: week or two before the murders, Robert tells his mom

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Speaker 1: that he's lugging seven hundred pounds of supplies into the wilderness.

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Speaker 4: Okay, seven hundred pounds of supplies. What did he take

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Speaker 4: where would he have deposited it at, And being as

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Speaker 4: Robert has a bad back, it's not like he was

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Speaker 4: hiking over a mountain pulling all this stuff up, and

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Speaker 4: it had to be somewhere he could easily get to

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Speaker 4: it and deposit wherever he was going to put it,

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Speaker 4: whether he could drive up to it or is a

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Speaker 4: very short walk.

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Speaker 1: Or he lied. He never actually transported seven hundred pounds

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Speaker 1: of supplies into the woods right before the murders. No

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Speaker 1: one ever found any of his belongings, let alone an

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Speaker 1: easily accessible secret seven hundred pounds stash. It makes more

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Speaker 1: sense to me that this is a red herring. Mom,

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Speaker 1: I just drag seven hundred pounds of supplies into the wilderness, which,

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Speaker 1: of course, after the murders, his mom tells police. On

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Speaker 1: April ninth, at popular outdoor outfitters, Robert makes a big

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Speaker 1: show of asking Ian, the eighteen year old store clerk,

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Speaker 1: the last person to see him alive, how to purify water.

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Speaker 1: This is only a few hours before the murders, so

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Speaker 1: either Robert hasn't planned them yet unlikely, or again it's

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Speaker 1: a red herring. Mister cashier, how do you purify water?

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Speaker 1: Ian gets the impression that Robert is planning on camping

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Speaker 1: for quite a long time. Robert tells him he's going

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Speaker 1: to draw water from a cattle hole. He's worried about viruses.

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Speaker 1: At seven point fifty five, he swipes his credit card.

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Speaker 1: He and Brittany head home. Mary and Bobby get back

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Speaker 1: around nine point forty. A neighbor hears Robert and Mary

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Speaker 1: fighting around ten. At ten forty two, Robert's caught on

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Speaker 1: camera at a nearby ATM. To me, this seems like

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Speaker 1: part of the show. He knows he'll be filmed at

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Speaker 1: the ATM. I'll circle back to this in a bit.

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Speaker 1: After the ATM, no one knows if Robert goes home

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Speaker 1: or flees. That's the old story, But I found two

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Speaker 1: new witnesses who see Mary's for runner at the Fisher

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Speaker 1: House early on April tenth, a neighbor at three thirty am,

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Speaker 1: and a newspaper delivery man, Bud Wolf, at five thirty.

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Speaker 1: So after the ATM, Robert returns home, though it's unclear

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Speaker 1: whether or not he stops anywhere else before doing so.

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Speaker 1: By the time he gets back, Mary and the kids

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Speaker 1: are likely asleep. The kids usually go to bed by nine,

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Speaker 1: Mary by ten. If Robert heads home directly, he's there

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Speaker 1: by ten fifty pm on April ninth. At one thirty

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Speaker 1: am on April tenth, his cell phone powers down. It

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Speaker 1: never turns back on. My best guess is that Robert

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Speaker 1: commits the murder shortly before shutting off his phone, so

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Speaker 1: sometime around one am on April tenth, and then he

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Speaker 1: remains at the house for at least four and a

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Speaker 1: half hours. He's still there at five thirty, but gone

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Speaker 1: by seven thirty. He likely flees sometime between five thirty

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Speaker 1: when Bud Wolf sees Forerunner and six zh three when

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Speaker 1: the sun rises. The murders are brutal, but Robert is

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Speaker 1: used to gore. He has military training. As a firefighter

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Speaker 1: and EMT he responded to bloody accidents and suicides, including

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Speaker 1: one in which someone killed himself in a car and

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Speaker 1: it burst into flames. He then worked for thirteen years

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Speaker 1: in stressful hospital settings. His former coworker, John Hatfield tells

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Speaker 1: me that people like Robert they have.

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Speaker 5: A low anxiety level. When things need to get done.

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Speaker 5: You just kind of know what you're going to do

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Speaker 5: because you're trained, you're educated, you know what the process is,

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Speaker 5: so it's almost reflexive. You don't have to think about it,

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Speaker 5: you just can do it. It's almost like you're stepping

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Speaker 5: back and even if though people may be on a

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Speaker 5: verge of death, you know that you're doing what you

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Speaker 5: need to do to prevent it. Through training, the anxiety

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Speaker 5: level is just not there.

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Speaker 1: A Fisher family friend who doesn't want to be named,

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Speaker 1: tells me a story that illustrates, in a bizarre way,

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Speaker 1: how calm Robert can remain under pressure. Sometime in the

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Speaker 1: eighties or nineties, when hair was big and full of spray, Robert,

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Speaker 1: Mary and some friends were sitting around the campfire making

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Speaker 1: s'mores when Mary's hair caught on fire. Quote it wasn't

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Speaker 1: like flaming, but it was on fire, and Robert stood

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Speaker 1: next to her and was just looking at her. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: he's a fricking fireman, what's going on with that? Like

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Speaker 1: put out her hair fire, but someone else did it

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Speaker 1: with their jacket, so he froze. He was just looking

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Speaker 1: with interest, very cool and collected. That's it. It was

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Speaker 1: really weird. It's ironic that this man so desperate to

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Speaker 1: be a hero, does nothing when his wife's head literally

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Speaker 1: catches on fire. All this to say, even though I

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Speaker 1: doubt anyone but the most callous sociopath can murder their

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Speaker 1: family and not feel anxiety. Robert is as prepared as

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Speaker 1: anyone to handle stress and gore, both via his training

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Speaker 1: military firefighter, EMT hospital hunter and his personality. He doesn't

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Speaker 1: buckle under pressure. He remains calm under fire, observing fire,

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Speaker 1: lighting fire. He can execute his plan. His family just

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Speaker 1: do what has to be done. After the murders, Robert

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Speaker 1: riggs the house to explode. Why please say he wants

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Speaker 1: to destroy evidence. I don't buy it again, Military firefighter,

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Speaker 1: EMT hospitals, Robert must know a police will immediately suspect

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Speaker 1: me and be the fire won't destroy everything. If he's

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Speaker 1: rational enough to successfully pull off a triple murder, blow

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Speaker 1: up his house, and escape for twenty three years, he's

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Speaker 1: rational enough to think these simple logical thoughts. I think

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Speaker 1: he blows up the house for two reasons. First, as

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Speaker 1: a violent, forceful purge, detonating the past to start over fresh,

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Speaker 1: incinerating who he was so he can rise anew. According

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Speaker 1: to familicide expert David Wilson, annihilators like Robert want to

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Speaker 1: demonstrate power first over their family and later over the

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Speaker 1: family's demise.

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Speaker 6: It will be dramatic. There's an element of staging. Usually

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Speaker 6: staging behavior is very important. Has rarely discussed how they

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Speaker 6: want the bodies to be found in a particular way.

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Speaker 6: They want to tell a story.

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Speaker 1: In this case, I'm still in control. My family didn't

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Speaker 1: break up. I destroyed it, but I showed mercy. Everyone

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Speaker 1: was asleep when I killed them, as quickly as possible

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Speaker 1: so they wouldn't suffer. And now I'm blowing up my house,

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Speaker 1: burning it down, getting rid of the past, starting over,

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Speaker 1: and this a fresh start. Is the second reason why

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Speaker 1: I think Fisher blows up his house to destroy photos

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Speaker 1: and videos that can help police find him. John List

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Speaker 1: did something similar minus the fire, after killing his family

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy one. He cut his face out of

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Speaker 1: every photo he could find. It's one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: he successfully escaped and lived on the lamb for eighteen years.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and one, when Robert kills his family.

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Speaker 1: There are no smartphones. You take pictures, you develop them.

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Speaker 1: It's pricey. Choose your shots wisely. Fisher is smart. After

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Speaker 1: two years of research, I've only been able to find

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Speaker 1: twenty eight photos of him as an adult, and some

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Speaker 1: grainy video. I'm unaware of any surviving photos or video

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Speaker 1: of Fisher taken after nineteen ninety nine. Now, if my

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Speaker 1: theory's correct, Fisher makes one big mistake. He leaves his

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Speaker 1: fire safe locked. The safe works, it protects some photos

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Speaker 1: and videos, a diabolical advertisement for the efficacy of the safe.

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Speaker 1: I suppose I'll return to this in a later episode.

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Speaker 1: After rigging the house to explode, Robert flees. Where does

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Speaker 1: he go? I don't know, but few people think he

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Speaker 1: drives immediately to the forerunner spot. When police later find it,

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Speaker 1: they also find his dog Blue. Patty Blackmore, the vet

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Speaker 1: who rescues Blue, and her friend Samantha Wright, who's there

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Speaker 1: that day too. Think Blues alone in the woods for

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Speaker 1: only a short amount of time.

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Speaker 7: If he had gone without food and water for ten days,

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Speaker 7: he would have been a lot sicker than he was.

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Speaker 7: He was hungry, but he wasn't amazing. He'd probably been

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Speaker 7: there there too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So you don't think he had been there full

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Speaker 1: ten days?

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Speaker 8: I don't think so, No, because he was still pretty

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Speaker 8: I mean, yeah, he wasn't amazing.

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Speaker 7: He looked very, very healthy. Yes, he was hungry, but

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Speaker 7: not ten days, starting without the water, because he by

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Speaker 7: that point he would have been dragging or dead, you know,

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Speaker 7: especially without the water.

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Speaker 1: If Blue is alone for only a day or two,

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Speaker 1: where was he before? Does Robert hide somewhere else after

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Speaker 1: the murders and then abandoned the suv and Blue? Finally,

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Speaker 1: why does Robert choose this particular spot? Let me start

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Speaker 1: with that. I think Robert carefully selects the Forerunner spot

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Speaker 1: as part of his plan to trick law enforcement, the public,

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Speaker 1: and the media into believing he walked into the the

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Speaker 1: wild and died. He's supposed to go camping at this

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Speaker 1: exact spot only a few days after the murders with

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Speaker 1: family and friends, including John and Mary Beth Rodin.

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Speaker 8: I think that was a big clue that he gave us,

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Speaker 8: and no one would listen.

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Speaker 9: What do you mean he had a specific spot that

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Speaker 9: he wanted to go. Normally, it didn't matter too much. Okay,

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Speaker 9: you picked the spot, and being John picked the spot,

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Speaker 9: we go places. I knew at this particular time that

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Speaker 9: this was the spot, and it's really wanted to camp

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Speaker 9: with this one spot.

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Speaker 8: And because I knew that was weird, I went to

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Speaker 8: the police and said, hey, because of this, I know

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Speaker 8: we need to look. I said it will go with

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Speaker 8: you and they said, no, we can't. We're not going

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Speaker 8: to do that, and that's where they found the car.

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Speaker 1: Jim road In. John's brother supports this claim.

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Speaker 4: Mary Beth said go look for him there.

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Speaker 10: They didn't do that for ten days.

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Speaker 1: Robert's friend and former co worker, Ashley's Arsty also points

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Speaker 1: police in the right direction.

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Speaker 2: If he's alive, and if he's in Arizona, you'll find

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Speaker 2: him in northern Arizona told him a goot.

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Speaker 1: Young friend and boss Lori Greenbeck says the same thing.

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Speaker 1: When you knew that he was missing, did you try

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Speaker 1: to tell the authorities to look in that area?

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Speaker 8: We did tell them.

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Speaker 1: One of Robert's friends and co workers, who doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to be named, also tells police early on to look

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Speaker 1: for Robert at the spot where they later find the Forerunner.

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Speaker 10: Because he used it as a staging area.

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Speaker 5: But in my mind it was how close it was

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Speaker 5: to the reservation.

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Speaker 1: I'll get back to that in a minute, but first

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Speaker 1: ask yourself, why does Robert abandon the suv at a

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00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,960
Speaker 1: spot where he's supposed to go camping in a few days,

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Speaker 1: A spot immediately pinpointed to police by multiple people. Now,

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Speaker 1: initially police don't actually search it. Instead, it's located nine

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Speaker 1: days later by Greg the itinerant camper. It would be

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Speaker 1: easy for me to criticize the cops here, but in

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Speaker 1: this case, I don't think that's fair. Arizona is huge.

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Speaker 1: They have limited manpower. They can't instantly examine every single lead. Instead,

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Speaker 1: focus on why Robert chooses this spot. I think he

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Speaker 1: thinks police will check it quickly based on tips from

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Speaker 1: people like the Rodents, the anonymous co worker, Ashley's Zarsky,

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Speaker 1: and Lori Greenbeck. They'll find the forerunner and then they'll

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00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,520
Speaker 1: divert limited resources to this spot, thereby concentrating law enforcement

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Speaker 1: in the wrong area, giving Robert more time to escape.

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Speaker 1: He also chooses it because it's frustrating and time consuming

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Speaker 1: to search. It's only eight hundred and ninety feet from

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Speaker 1: the Ford Apache Indian Reservation stayed in local law enforcement

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00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,720
Speaker 1: aren't permitted to cross onto tribal land without permission. They

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Speaker 1: get it, but it takes time. Furthermore, this spot is

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Speaker 1: only one hundred and fifty feet from Apex Cave. Police

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00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,919
Speaker 1: immediately think Fisher's in the cave. Swat teams circle it.

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Speaker 1: They call on a plumber who snakes in a drain camera.

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Speaker 1: He's not here. They move on to other caves. He's

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Speaker 1: not in any of them. All of this takes time.

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Speaker 1: If you're on the run, if you want to complicate things,

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Speaker 1: if you want to buy time to escape, if you

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Speaker 1: want people to think you died in the wilderness. This

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Speaker 1: is the perfect spot, a spot where you're supposed to

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Speaker 1: go camping in a few days, a spot police will

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Speaker 1: likely search quickly. They'll find the forerunner next to an

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Speaker 1: Indian reservation and a cave in the middle of a

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Speaker 1: two point nine million acre national forest. It's brilliant, really.

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Speaker 1: Some people dispute that the forerunner's proximity to tribal land

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Speaker 1: complicates the search. They're wrong. Heala County Detective Brian Havy

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00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,400
Speaker 1: tells me that it was, in fact an issue. Consider

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Speaker 1: a different incident from twenty eighteen. Two men parachute out

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Speaker 1: of a vintage World War Two plane above the reservation.

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00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,520
Speaker 1: Their plane crashes into the forest below. They survive, but

341
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,399
Speaker 1: can't find it. They put up a reward and end

342
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,919
Speaker 1: up in a battle with the tribe, which, according to

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Speaker 1: the Arizona Republic says they're encouraging people to violate tribal

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Speaker 1: and federal law. The tribe is understandably very protective of

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Speaker 1: its land and sovereignty. I reach out to several officials

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Speaker 1: for comment. No one responds. I file a record's request

347
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Speaker 1: with tribal police. They deny it. Some people might say

348
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Speaker 1: that Robert chooses the fore Runner spot not as part

349
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,840
Speaker 1: of an elaborate escape plan, but because he knows it,

350
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Speaker 1: he likes it. It's peaceful, remote, beautiful. This is where

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00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,199
Speaker 1: he chooses to die by suicide. If he wants to escape,

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Speaker 1: he could keep driving to another state, even Mexico. The

353
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,240
Speaker 1: border is only three hours away. So why does he

354
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Speaker 1: stop here? The simple answer Occam's razor to die. But

355
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Speaker 1: what about Blue? If Robert walks into the woods to die,

356
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Speaker 1: why does Blue stay with the fore erunner not Robert? Here? Again,

357
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Speaker 1: are Patty Blackmore at the vet and her friend Samantha Wright.

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Speaker 7: If Blue is outside and Robert Fisher wandered off, I

359
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:43,200
Speaker 7: think Blue would have followed him.

360
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Speaker 1: Do you see any scenario in which Robert Fisher goes

361
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Speaker 1: into the wilderness and says stay and Blue does not

362
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Speaker 1: follow him.

363
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,880
Speaker 7: No, it would have to be a really good dog

364
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Speaker 7: for that.

365
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Speaker 1: So now Robert the control freak is unsurprisingly strict with

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Speaker 1: his dogs. He trains them well. You see it in

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Speaker 1: home videos with his black lab Ruger.

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Speaker 11: Ruger Good, get right, Boke, Okay, stay, Rugers good dash,

369
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Speaker 11: good dog.

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Speaker 1: One of Robert's friends, who doesn't want to be named,

371
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Speaker 1: tells me a story. In the late eighties, Robert would

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Speaker 1: claim pots and pants in front of Ruger, training him

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Speaker 1: not to be jumpy around loud noises, not to be

374
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Speaker 1: gun shy. That way he could bring him hunting. The

375
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,200
Speaker 1: friend had stunt blanks from a movie set. He gave

376
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Speaker 1: them to Robert one Friday night in his backyard. Robert

377
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,560
Speaker 1: told Ruger to sit, and then he started shooting blanks.

378
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,480
Speaker 1: At the time, there was a football game taking place

379
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Speaker 1: at a nearby high school. Police surrounded the house, the

380
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,240
Speaker 1: friend said, and Robert came close to getting shot. This

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00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,600
Speaker 1: incident has never been reported. In the nineties, after Ruger dies,

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00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,480
Speaker 1: Robert gets Blue, an Australian cattle dog. By all accounts,

383
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Speaker 1: he also trains Blue well, but no dog can be

384
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Speaker 1: trained to remain indefinitely within suv as their owner wanders

385
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,639
Speaker 1: into the woods to commit suicide. Here's a limit for

386
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Speaker 1: an expert opinion.

387
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 3: I consult doctor Amy Learn.

388
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Speaker 1: A board certified veterinary behaviorist and the owner of Animal

389
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Speaker 1: Behavior Wellness Center in Richmond, Virginia.

390
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,160
Speaker 3: I completed an internship and a residency, had to write

391
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:25,280
Speaker 3: a peer reviewed article and have that published, and log

392
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,800
Speaker 3: tons and tons of hours in animal behavior study, different

393
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:33,880
Speaker 3: topics like learning theory, psychiatry, medical neuroscience, different psychiatric medications,

394
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 3: learn about lots and lots of different species of animals.

395
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Speaker 3: And then here I am today.

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Speaker 12: And you see a world in which Robert Fisher walks

397
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Speaker 12: off to commit suicide and Blue just sits there by

398
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Speaker 12: the truck and doesn't follow home.

399
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Speaker 3: No, I can't, honestly, let's just say that this is

400
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:59,239
Speaker 3: the best trained dog in the universe ever. And he

401
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,640
Speaker 3: asked him to say, and he can stay for hours,

402
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 3: and he walks off and commits suicide. At some point,

403
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 3: that dog has to get up, he has to got

404
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 3: to go to the bathroom, he's got to eat. He

405
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 3: gets up, and it's been a long enough time that

406
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,400
Speaker 3: the owner's not there, and he's like, I think maybe

407
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 3: I can get up, you know, looking around, like am

408
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:16,679
Speaker 3: I gonna get in trouble. No, I can get up.

409
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:18,679
Speaker 3: I don't see anybody. I'm gonna get up now. So

410
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,159
Speaker 3: he gets up, and then once he gets up, he

411
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 3: doesn't remember that he should go back to his spot

412
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,959
Speaker 3: and sit down again. He's like, what do I do now? Okay,

413
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 3: I ate something, I drank something. Where's my guy? Like,

414
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 3: let's go play, let's go on a hike, let's do

415
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 3: something else. And so he's gonna start sniffing around. And again,

416
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 3: this isn't a search and rescue dog, but he still

417
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,640
Speaker 3: has a dog sense of smell, and so he can

418
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,679
Speaker 3: track and find out where Robert went to some degree

419
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 3: and go there. Now again, that depends on the terrain

420
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 3: and if he has to climb up and over or through.

421
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,359
Speaker 3: We all watch those old jailbreak movies where somebody just

422
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 3: crosses the river and then the dogs never find them

423
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:57,879
Speaker 3: because they're on the other side of the river. But

424
00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 3: you know, I don't know if any of those kinds

425
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,159
Speaker 3: of things would have gotten in a way, but I

426
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 3: believe that Blue could have tracked him if he was there,

427
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 3: you know, within a mile two miles of the car,

428
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 3: and then gone to find him and stayed with the body.

429
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 12: Do you think that is likely that he would have

430
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 12: tracked him if he could.

431
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 3: I think if they have the bond that you're thinking

432
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 3: they do and that you're describing, that he would have

433
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 3: tracked him, because again, that's the only person being that

434
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 3: he knows, that's his way out, that's his food provider,

435
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 3: and he's going to be like, when are we going home?

436
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 5: Right?

437
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 3: Most of the time, if you think about going with

438
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 3: your dog to a park or the woods or hiking,

439
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 3: they're with you. They'll go run off and chase something,

440
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 3: and they'll come back and check in with you. And

441
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 3: most of the time that's what a hike looks like,

442
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 3: even if you're off in the wilderness. And so for

443
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 3: Blue to stay somewhere well his person left, or for

444
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 3: Blue to really go off, if he wasn't chasing a

445
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 3: rabbit or some kind of prey item, then he would

446
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 3: have stayed or continued to check in with his person.

447
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 12: And if his person had been nearby, or he had

448
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 12: been able to track his person, which was Robert, even

449
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 12: if Robert had died, it would make sense that Blue

450
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 12: would use Robert as his base instead of the vehicle.

451
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 3: So the vehicle, I think, so if Robert really was

452
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 3: going to commit suicide. I think that Blue would have

453
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,479
Speaker 3: followed him as much as he could have, no depending

454
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 3: on where he meandered and if Blue could go with him.

455
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,199
Speaker 3: And then you would see a dog sitting by the

456
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 3: owner's body. Here, I am, here's my owner. I'm not

457
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 3: going to leave him. I'm going to stay here.

458
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,640
Speaker 1: There are many examples of this. In fact, we included

459
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 1: one earlier in this episode, the dog who stayed with

460
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 1: its owner's bodies from fall to spring after a murder

461
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 1: suicide in the Arizona Wilderness. Here's another. In twenty twenty three,

462
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: a Jack Russell terrier remained with his owner's body for

463
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: two months in an isolated, rugged part of Colorado until

464
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: searchers found them. Experts aside, examples aside, Let's just use

465
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: common sense. Does it make more sense that Blue remains

466
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: near the Forerunner as Robert walks into the wild to die,

467
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: or that he stays near the Forerunner because someone picks

468
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 1: up Robert and drives him away. If you like this show,

469
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,959
Speaker 1: please download our first two seasons, Missing in Alaska and

470
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: Missing on nine to eleven. For updates, visit meon thirty

471
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: three dot com or follow me on Twitter at John

472
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:25,479
Speaker 1: waalzac j O, n Wa l Czak. Thanks for listening.

473
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 3: Now.

474
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 1: One of the most confounding questions of this case, why

475
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: does Robert leave Blue alive? Is this an act of

476
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: love from a man who just killed his family? I

477
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: don't think so. First, Blue would have served as an

478
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 1: early warning system, alerting Robert if people or vehicles approached. Second,

479
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 1: I think Blue is part one of a three part signature,

480
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,919
Speaker 1: Robert telling the world. I was here One Mary's fore Runner,

481
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: two Blue, three Robert's black ball cap, the one he

482
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: wears the night of April ninth at the ATM. Hello, police, Here,

483
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: I am on camera at an ATM, wearing this hat.

484
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: It's me Robert. If you're thinking, who cares, it's just

485
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 1: a hat, consider this. When police find the fore Runner,

486
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 1: none of Robert's belongings are in it except the hat.

487
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 1: No camping equipment, no guns, no clothes, nothing, just the hat.

488
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: What's even more interesting is where they find it. Keela

489
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: County Detective Brian Havy is the first cop to reach

490
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: the Forerunner.

491
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 10: It was an unlocked, unsecured vehicle, bare bones, nothing in it,

492
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 10: and the only thing that I recall being in there

493
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 10: was a ball cap on the seat, and I think

494
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 10: it was on the back of the saint, just threshting there,

495
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 10: you know, Pat, or in the in between the two,

496
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 10: just reshting there like the arms. No up on the

497
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 10: where your shoulder would be. He was sitting right there

498
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 10: likego his place there.

499
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 1: Like it was placed there, And it must have been,

500
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: because it didn't just fall off his head neatly onto

501
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: the corner of a car seat. So Robert dumps the

502
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 1: foreerunner and Blue and the ball cap, three signatures I

503
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 1: was here, and nothing else, none of his stuff. Question,

504
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: if Robert chooses to die by suicide in the wild,

505
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: does it make sense that he drags all of his

506
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 1: stuff with him, except, of course, the black ball cap

507
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: he wore at the atm. Does it make sense that,

508
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: instead of just walking to a nearby hill or tree,

509
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: he takes every single item with him except the hat,

510
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 1: and no one ever find anything, and Blue stays with

511
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: the forerunner. Does that make sense? Not to me? Furthermore,

512
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 1: it makes even less sense when you consider his health.

513
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: He's in pain, he needs surgery, he's popping pills. Jim Roden,

514
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 1: his friend, tells me about a hunting trip they took

515
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety seven, four years before the murders.

516
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 10: Because of his back, I carried his pack, his gear

517
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 10: for the night back into the back country.

518
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: Robert is in so much pain on this trip, Jim

519
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 1: has to carry his pack for him. Take a guess

520
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: at how much the pack weighs. Twenty five pounds. Twenty

521
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: five pounds. That's nothing. So the idea that a suicidal

522
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: Robert Fisher carts everything with him into the wilderness, except,

523
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: of course, the black ball cap, and none of his

524
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 1: stuff has ever found is ridiculous. So too is the

525
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 1: idea that he morphs into a speedy little gollum, dragging

526
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: everything deep into a cave. Not to mention, he seems

527
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: to be addicted to opioids, which at some point will

528
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: run out. Now let me circle back to the Forerunner

529
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: when police find it. It's very clean. Some dirt, some

530
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: pine needles, but no mud caked inside or out, even

531
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: though the windows are rolled down and the weather has

532
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: at points been bad sleep snow, wind, rain, no muddy footprints,

533
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: no dog prints. I've been to that spot several times.

534
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: Each time it was dry, my car got absolutely caked

535
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: in dirt. If it was wet, it would have been

536
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: caked in mud. There's no way to make it there

537
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: without getting dirty, except I suppose maybe driving very slow

538
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: or cleaning it once you get there, like say, if

539
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: you want to remove evidence. One more question, why does

540
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: Robert take the Forerunner instead of his truck. Well, the

541
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: Forerunner has more cab space in which the store stuff

542
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: or sleep. The fore Runner is more inconspicuous, less flashy, quieter,

543
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: it gets better gas mileage. Neither vehicle is four wheel drive,

544
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: so that's irrelevant. More space, less flashy, better gas mileage.

545
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: Robert Fisher is spiraling out of control. His back hurts,

546
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: his knee hurts. He needs surgery. He's scared it'll paralyze him.

547
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: He's popping pills. He cheats on Mary, gets gonorrhea or

548
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: chlamydia and syphilis, gives it to Mary. She finds out

549
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: and confronts him. It's over control gone. He's about to

550
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: be a divorced, middle aged cyphilid man. Pitied by the community,

551
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: he decides to kill Mary and the kids to blow

552
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: up his house to escape. He starts to play out

553
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: a cover story. Tells his mom he lugged seven hundred

554
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: pounds of supplies into the wilderness, tells the rodents that

555
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: they have to go camping at this exact spot near

556
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: young He tries to act normal, goes to the movies

557
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: with Mary to Brittany's Honor Society event. Stops at popular

558
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: outdoor outfitters where he asks an eighteen year old cashier

559
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: how to purify water. He heads home, fights with Mary,

560
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: drives to the atm and Mary's suv, which is caught

561
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: on camera. Wears his black ball cap, also caught on camera.

562
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: Goes home again. Everyone's asleep. He kills them, slits their throats,

563
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: first Mary, then the kids. He shoots Mary in the

564
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: head the fuck you shot, turns off his phone, cleans up,

565
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: packs his stuff into Mary's Forerunner, breaks the house to explode,

566
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: drives off, goes somewhere, drops off the Forerunner in the woods,

567
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: cleans it up, places the black ball cap on a

568
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: seat corner, dumps blue only eight hundred and ninety feet

569
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: from a reservation, one hundred and fifty feet from a

570
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: cave in the middle of a two point nine million

571
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: acre national forest. Good luck to the cops. Someone picks

572
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: him up and helps him escape. He lives. He's still

573
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: alive today. This is my theory which I test on

574
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: Scott Still. Lieutenant Hugh Lockerby, You've looked at this for

575
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: the better part of my life, so you know more

576
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: than me. If there's something wrong with my logic, I

577
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: want to hear you tell me.

578
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 13: I like your theory and trust me. We've discussed that

579
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 13: same theory and there's nothing to really refute it. There's

580
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 13: nothing to say that that isn't what happened. I just

581
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 13: don't know. I can see why you would think that,

582
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 13: and I think you are looking at through a lens

583
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 13: that is pretty accurate because you're looking at things from

584
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 13: a factual standpoint, and it definitely definitely could have been why.

585
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 13: I don't know if it's I can't say it's for

586
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 13: one hundred percent accuracy though. You just don't know right now,

587
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 13: but it's definitely something that he could have done, and

588
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 13: that's why he did what he did.

589
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: One thing I always ask our team before these shows

590
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 1: air is if I say something or right something written

591
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: me to shreds because everybody else will a minute will

592
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: come out. Do you see generally any flaws with my

593
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: logic or anything. Did anything I say pop out that

594
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: just doesn't make sense to you?

595
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 13: Or yeah, I mean I'm trying to think he said

596
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 13: a lot, So I'm trying to go back and rip

597
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 13: it to shreds. I'm trying to figure out what I

598
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 13: could rip you on.

599
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: Nothing. He doesn't rip me to shreds now. That doesn't

600
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: mean he endorses my entire theory, just that he gets

601
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: my logic. In previous seasons, I resisted stating my theories.

602
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: Not this time. I think Robert Fisher escaped. I think

603
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: he's alive. I want to find him and I need

604
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: your help. Let me leave you with this clip from

605
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: my interview with Miss Honey, Britney Fisher's teacher, the second

606
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: to last person to see and speak with Robert Fisher

607
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: that we know of, because I think someone helped him.

608
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: I'll get to that in a later episode. Here's Miss Honey.

609
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 12: He had a.

610
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 14: Plan, and I know he did. I feel it, and

611
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 14: I feel like often wonder what family he has now

612
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 14: and who his kids are now, and my senses he

613
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 14: started over and people like that can be very manipulative,

614
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 14: and hopefully no one else will be his next victim.

615
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 12: End of Part two.

616
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: Next time, I'm missing in Arizona.

617
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 12: Why are you trying so hard to find me? Because

618
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 12: this is a fascinating case.

619
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: I want to solve it, and because you hurt so

620
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: many people, I want to help them.

621
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 11: All Right, come on, then ask me some real questions.

622
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: You can reach us by phone at one eight three

623
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: three new tips that's one eight three three six three

624
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: nine eight four seven seven, by email at tips at

625
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: iHeartMedia dot com, tips at iHeartMedia dot com, online at

626
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: meon thirty three dot com, or on Twitter at John Waalzac,

627
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: Jo n Wa l Czak. Paul Decan is our executive producer.

628
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: Chris Brown is our supervising producer, Hannah Rose Snyder is

629
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: our producer. Paul Gemperlin is our researcher. Ben Bolan is

630
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: a consulting producer. And I'm your host and executive producer

631
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: John Walzac Special thanks to Jim John and Mary Beth Rodin.

632
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: Cover art by Pam Peacock Neon thirty three. Logo designed

633
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,720
Speaker 1: by Derek Rudy. Our intro song is Utopia by Ruby Cube.

634
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: Please download the first two seasons of our show, Missing

635
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: in Alaska and Missing on nine to eleven, and if

636
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: you're so inclined, give us a five star rating. Missing

637
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: in Arizona is a co production of iHeartRadio and Neon

638
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: thirty three