WEBVTT - The NY Subway Vigilante 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:07.720 Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:13.600 Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.560 Chuck and Jerry's here too. We're pretty sure and. 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:22.640 This is stuff you should know. That's right. Eighties History, 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:24.319 the New York City History edition. 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.840 Yeah, oh, it's definitely. I mean, not just like New 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:31.120 York City history. This is one of the pivotal moments 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:32.560 in the history of New York. 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:37.200 Yeah, that's right, because everyone we are talking about somebody who, 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:40.000 as far as pop culture goes, was on the cover 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:44.120 of Time magazine. Somebody who has been in pop songs 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:48.440 by Billy Joel, of course, lou Reid, none other than 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:52.639 the Beastie Boys, has been a trivial pursuit answer, has 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.400 been a question on Jeopardy, has been mentioned in an 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:59.640 episode of Seinfeld even and of course here are we 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:00.720 talking at Josh. 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:04.800 Wow, Well, hold on, I can top your Time magazine. 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:06.440 He was also in Mad magazine. 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:08.560 Okay, also in Mad magazine. 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:11.840 So this must have been some entertainer or some revered 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:13.839 cultural icon. 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:14.960 Yeah. 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:18.160 Sure, in a roundabout way, but not really. I think 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:19.479 you're being coy or fay. 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:24.400 That's right, we're talking about Bernard Getz, the subway vigilante 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:29.640 who shot four teenagers on a subway train in New 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:32.479 York City and nineteen eighty four, when I was thirteen 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:32.920 years old. 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:35.440 I remember this very vividly. It was a very big deal. 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:37.560 Yeah, and we should probably come out and say these 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:41.680 were unarmed teenagers too. And then I saw so there's 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:48.480 a book called Five Bullets by a legal correspondent named. 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:52.680 Elliott ness Smith. 0:01:54.760 --> 0:02:01.040 Actually it's Elliott Smith, hyphen Nessess, good Guess Easton, that's 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:03.600 Sheena Easton. You're thinking of, thank you for helping me 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:04.560 tap dance. 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:06.200 Here Elliott Easton of the cars. 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.720 Well, anyway, i'll find his last name, but his first 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:12.040 name's Elliott. He wrote a book called five Bullets, and 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.320 it's about this, and he was I saw him being 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:17.400 interviewed and he was like, you know, were these kids 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:19.640 and he's like, yeah, that's I think. He said, that's 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:22.160 a fair question. He said they were teens, they were 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:24.200 eighteen or nineteen, but they. 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:25.920 Were also like grown adults by then. 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:29.000 Exactly, they were young men for sure. Ye. So yeah, 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:30.799 you call them kids, which a lot of people did, 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:33.360 was incorrect. But to also say that they were armed, 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:36.280 which a lot of people said was incorrect as well. 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:38.519 Yeah, unless you count to screwdriver. 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:42.400 Yes, but was that even them being armed? 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:46.240 I know, yeah, we'll get to all that, so I 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:48.440 guess we should sort of just say quickly. 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:51.680 The story maybe. 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:54.320 Yeah, And by the way, I really I liked your intro. 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:55.280 Oh thanks. 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:57.800 We'll get into the details of it, but the overall 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:00.600 story is that on the New York City train, on 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.680 the two train in December of nineteen eighty four, a 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:06.480 guy named Bernard gets thirty seven years old. He's an 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:10.440 electrical engineer. Still is still lives in the very same apartment, 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:12.959 which is kind of crazy. Really in the West Village, right, 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:15.040 I'm not even sure where it is. 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:16.200 I'm pretty sure it is. 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:18.880 Okay, Well, I mean I might have bumped into him 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:20.440 one day, you never know. But yeah, he still lives 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:22.760 in the same place, which is a little crazy because 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:25.000 I've never heard him say one thing about New York 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:27.000 City that he likes. All I've ever heard him, and 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:29.280 I've listened to a lot of interviews, all I've ever 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:31.680 heard him do is complain about everything about New York. 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:35.120 Yeah, he's apparently still complaining about how New York was 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:35.760 in the eighties. 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:39.560 Yeah, maybe so. But anyway, he was thirty seven at 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:42.720 the time. Took a seat on the New York City 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:44.400 subway I think of what was it, the two train, 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:49.000 and four eighteen and nineteen year olds got on. Barry Allen, 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:56.360 Troy Canty, Darryl Caby, and James Ramsure got on, and 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.840 we're being like, you know, I've been on trains sort 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:01.280 of back in the day. It doesn't happen a whole 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:05.760 lot anymore where teenagers or even older teenagers get on 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.960 and they start screwing around with people. They start being disruptive, 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:20.839 maybe even veiled, veiledly failedly failedly validly threatening, And that's 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:25.159 what was going on. And one of them, I believe 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:31.240 it was Canti, approached Bernard Gets and either said give 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:34.720 me five bucks or can I have five bucks? And 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:38.160 Bernard Gets pulled a gun out of his windbreaker and 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:42.520 shot each of them one by one, hitting two of 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:45.240 them in the back, and then fired a second bullet 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.400 at Darryl Kabe, who was you know, this is where 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:50.479 it gets a little confusing as to how exactly it 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:52.200 played out, and we'll get to all those details, but 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:54.400 he's the one that was. Nobody was killed. He was 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:56.240 the one that was injured the most. He ended up 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:59.880 paralyzed and brained image because the bullet entered his spine. 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.479 Yeah, and it's worth saying that when he shot Darryl 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:07.960 KB that second time, Darryl KB was cowering on a 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.039 subway bench in fear of his life and again was 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:14.520 not armed. So this is this is such a like 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:19.799 a difficult case to talk about because in some ways 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:26.200 you kind of have to provide context for Bernard Getz's mindset. 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:31.080 He he was not some insane person necessarily, but when 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:33.719 you find out more about him too, he becomes less 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:37.200 and less sympathetic of a of a person. And yet 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:40.520 at the same time, the victims of this were not 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:44.160 just like, you know, angels, even if in this one 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:47.719 particular incident they weren't necessarily doing anything and they certainly 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:51.240 weren't doing anything worth being shot and paralyzed for life over. 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:54.120 So the whole thing, it's it's just not cut and 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:56.839 dried or black and white, which makes the whole thing, 0:05:57.320 --> 0:05:58.960 I guess real life essentially. 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.640 Yeah, I mean, none other than Al Sharpton back in 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:07.040 the day even said like, hey, these guys are no angels. Yeah, 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:09.880 So like no one was ever and you know, Al 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:12.240 Sharpton's on the scene and he's saying that kind of 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:16.200 thing like contemporaneously. Then you know, like nobody who was 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:18.160 trying to paint these guys is like, you know, these 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:20.040 nice kids who are just on their way home from 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:23.560 the library or whatever. Right, So, yeah, we got to 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:26.320 frame this a little bit. And one of the ways 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:28.840 we should start is probably by talking a little bit 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.760 about New York City in nineteen eighty four. In the 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:37.320 nineteen eighties, which you know, pretty infamously was down on 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:41.960 its luck as a town and fairly riddled with crime. 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:44.720 It's fair to say, for sure, it had almost gone 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.479 bankrupt as a city in the seventies. I think it 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:49.160 was bailed out by like City Bank and some of 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:53.800 the other big banks and ODEM big time. And one 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:57.320 other thing too about New York was that crime, including 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:00.400 violent crime, was on the rise across the US, but 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:03.200 in New York it was increasing at a rate sixty 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:07.400 percent faster than any other big city. It was a 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:11.120 it was a totally different town than it is today. Yeah, Like, 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:12.760 for sure, all you have to do is look at 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:15.440 a picture of the interior of a subway from nineteen 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:17.800 eighty four. Yeah, and compare it to the interior of 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:19.600 a subway today, and it will give you a really 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:23.360 good idea of kind of the general lawlessness that was 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:24.920 going on in New York at the time. 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:25.640 Yeah. 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:28.880 I think there were thirty eight crimes a day just 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:31.800 on the subway in New York City. And you know 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:34.559 I mentioned that last episode. I'm reading that Abel Ferrara book. 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:37.160 He's a New York guy, and so some of these 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:40.200 early stories from back then. He lived near Union Square, 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:41.640 like you know Union Square, New York. 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:44.080 Sure, I do have walked around in a circle, even 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:45.360 it's quite lovely. 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:48.280 Not when he lived there, which was in the eighties, 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:50.400 he said that he literally would not go into Union 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:52.119 Square at night, and he was he was a pretty 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:55.880 tough guy. Yeah, and that at one point, like the phone, 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:58.480 like New York City was in such bad shape, like 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:03.160 ma Bell went down for I feel like months, like 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:05.920 he said, nobody could call in or out from from 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:08.240 my neighborhood near Union Square. 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:10.520 That's like escape from New York type stuff. 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:12.720 Yeah, for sure, Like he said, he used to pick 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:14.680 up the phone every day just to see if there 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:16.840 was a dial tone. And then finally one day there 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:18.240 was and he was like, oh my god, I can 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:19.320 I can call somebody. 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.000 Yeah, it was so bad New York was back in 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:26.520 this day that in Times Square people wouldn't go to 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:29.560 the Planet Hollywood or TGI Fridays, and both of them 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:30.560 almost went under. 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:34.040 Yeah, Bubba Gump Shrimp was really suffering. 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:39.120 Yes, big time. So yeah, New York was a different place. 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:42.560 And this is actually this will help explain the reaction 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:48.280 that Bernard Getz got when he, I guess turned himself 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:52.360 in and became known as the subway vigilante. But before 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:56.200 that he was an unknown person. This was an unknown 0:08:56.200 --> 0:09:01.600 perpetrator because after he shot Canty Alan kb Ramser, he 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.720 took off. He jumped out of the stopped subway car, 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:07.480 ran down the tracks, and then I guess hit a 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:11.000 platform and ran back up above ground and was on 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:13.720 the lamp for like seven or nine days, I think. 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:14.480 Yeah. 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:18.640 The subway conductor actually confronted him and was like, are 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:21.920 you a cop? And he said no, and he tried 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:24.560 to get the gun from Bernie Getz, which was a 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:28.240 Smith and Wesson thirty eight thirty eight caliber, and that's 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:30.120 that's when he took off and ran down the Chamber Street. 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:32.240 But yeah, he packed a bag, rented a car and 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:33.559 drove to New Hampshire. 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:36.680 Yeah, and I think he passed through Vermont because I 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.600 heard that he buried the gun there and he was 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.320 really scared, like he was, I mean, as you would 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:44.800 be after something like that. He said that in the 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:47.080 moment he was totally out of control, but very quickly 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:50.160 after that he got really scared. So he was running 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:53.240 on the lamb because he was under the impression that 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:56.440 when New York got their hands on him. I think 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.840 he's he told a detective in New Hampshire, they're going 0:09:59.920 --> 0:10:03.160 to wipe the floor with me. And it turned out 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:07.760 that the essentially the exact opposite happened to Bernard Gets 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:10.600 when he turned himself in nine days after the shooting 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:11.559 in New Hampshire. 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:16.280 Yeah, I mean the reaction generally from New York, I 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:18.560 mean it was divided in a way. It's not like 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.280 everyone felt this way, but there were enough people that 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.040 were like, yeah, good for him. This city is a 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:27.960 cesspool and somebody finally took up for themselves. That was 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:31.839 a sentiment like across racial lines, and race would play 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:33.560 a big part as we'll see, Like that's sort of 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:35.839 one of the uncomfortable things we have to talk about, 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:40.080 because Bernard gets very unapologetically in interviews, countless interviews over 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:43.800 the years, talked about you know, black men specifically is 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:46.320 what he would say over and over again, and the 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:49.920 violence and ruining the city. And I think you found 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:53.440 statistics right that like a lot of the like, hey, 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:56.640 we are on this guy side kind of crossed over 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:57.800 racial lines too, right. 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:00.360 Yeah, it wasn't. It was not the way that you 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:03.320 would think of it. I think half of the Hispanic 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:06.760 population of New York said they support him in a 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.880 survey quickly afterward, and forty five percent of Black New 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:14.360 Yorkers said that they supported him too. And again it's because, 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:16.199 like you said, like a lot of these people had 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:20.600 their own experience with like being mugged or maybe intimidated 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:23.280 or something on the subway. So the idea of somebody 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:27.640 stepping forward and doing something really kind of resonated with 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:29.640 the people living in New York at the time, because 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:32.880 I read they might not all have been living in 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:36.600 constant fear like we'll see Bernard Getz was, but they 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:40.520 were constantly on alert. You had to like really know 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:42.800 what you were doing to live in New York or else. 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:46.000 You were putting yourself in jeopardy if you were naive 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:48.839 about that kind of thing. So the people were like, Yeah, 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:51.120 that's great. I'm glad somebody finally stood up to him. 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:53.600 The cops aren't doing anything, which was definitely a big 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:56.680 criticism of the NYPD and the New York judicial system 0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:59.280 at the time, like a lot of crime was just 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:03.440 being overlooked because the major crimes were so overwhelming to 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:04.760 the cops in the courts. 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:08.440 Yeah, I think you said it best about just being alert, 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:10.880 because like I think sometimes this period of New York 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:14.600 gets painted as like, if you walk outside of your apartment, 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:16.280 there's a fifty to fifty chance you're going to get 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.240 mugged or murdered, right, And when you look at the stats, 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.360 it's shocking today to hear about like thirty eight literal 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:25.880 crimes on the subway every single day, because it's just 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:27.960 not like that now. But when you talk about how many, 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:30.400 you know, tens of thousands of people ride the subway, 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:33.440 it's still a low number, but it was high enough, 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:36.520 and everyone knew someone who knew someone who had had 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:39.560 this happen. If it hadn't happened to them that like, yeah, 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:41.679 it was a different time, but we just don't want 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:45.000 to paint it as like, you know, the wild West, 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:46.880 because it wasn't like that exactly. 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:52.040 No, But when the news of the subway vigilanti came out, 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:55.679 one of the things that really shaped the public opinion too, 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.960 and made it easier for people to be like, heck, yeah, 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.000 good for that guy. I love him. I think Joan 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:04.040 Rivers sent him a telegram that said loving kisses and 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.160 offered to help him with his bail money. People had 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:08.920 t shirts. Did you see that T shirt I sent 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:10.280 you that's available on eBay? 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:12.319 Oh, I thought you sent it in the mail. You 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:13.000 didn't buy me that. 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:16.800 It said thug busters and it said it quit Bernard 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:19.480 Getz has like I think a gun or something. No, 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:21.360 it had a bad guy with a circle in a 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:22.800 slash through like Ghostbusters. 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:23.520 I guess yeah. 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:27.319 I mean that was you know, that was the public sentiment. 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:29.720 And it also had to do with the way initially 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.120 the press was being fed to them about this because 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:36.320 right all the information coming out was you know, hey, 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:39.360 these guys had screwdrivers in their pockets, they were trying 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:42.680 to mug him. They didn't focus on sort of the 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:45.480 shooting aspect, like that he had hollow point bullets, which 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:47.080 are of course even deadlier. 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:51.720 M I guess non hollow bullets. What are those called. 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:54.439 Regular bullet? 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:55.160 Regular bullets? 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:58.040 Yeah, sure, talking to two newvies here with that stuff, 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.200 didn't talk about shooting them in the back. Initially in 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:06.800 the press, they talked, you know, they talked to Kanti's 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:08.920 brother and he was like, yeah, my brother free basis 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:10.960 cocaine and he was high that day on the subway. 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:13.439 So like all the stuff coming out in the news, 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:19.280 you know, supported like a more benevolent view of Bernard 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:20.520 Getz at first, at least. 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:26.880 Yeah, for sure. So there were some people that spoke 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:29.680 out against this. I think the columnist Jimmy Breslin was 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:35.960 publicly repulsed that people were celebrating an incident that left 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:39.600 a teenager in a wheelchair for life, and you know, 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:42.320 he had something to say about that. Mary ed Koch 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:46.920 was apparently the only public official who unconditionally condemned it. 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:50.800 He was basically saying, we will not tolerate vigilanteism. That's 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:54.080 the difference between the wild West and a civilized society. 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:57.560 And he had a really good point, but for the 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:02.840 most part, basically everybody. The loudest people were definitely the 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.480 ones who were supporting him. That the few people who 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:08.400 were like that was a hate crime, long before there 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:12.800 were any federal laws against hate crimes, were speaking out, 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:15.560 but they were in a minority. It seemed like. I 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:17.840 found a quote from a guy named James Q. Wilson, 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:22.560 who is a he's a I guess a public policy expert. 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:26.240 I think he was a conservative. He said that it 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.560 may be that there are no more liberals on the 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.240 crime and law and order issue in New York because 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.760 they've all been mugged, which I think kind of gets 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.040 across the idea that like, there weren't a lot of 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:39.200 people speaking out about this and against Bernard gets especially 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:39.600 at first. 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:41.960 Yeah, for sure, all right, I think we'd set the 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:42.880 table pretty nicely. 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:43.680 Mm hmm. 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:45.080 You eat from the outside in. 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:49.040 Oh I've been doing it at the opposite my home. 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:52.040 I've been eating from bottom. 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:53.440 To toph No, no, no, that's not the way you 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:54.760 do it. You got to set the table the right way, 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:56.760 and we have done that. So we'll be right back 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:19.480 with more on the subway vigilante Bernard Getz. All right, So, 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:22.200 like we mentioned Bernard Getz hit the trail and a 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:24.120 rental a rental car went to New Hampshire. A man 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:27.480 hunt ensued, obviously. Uh, they put out a sketch of him, 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.840 and I guess someone had called in like, hey, I 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:32.440 think I might have seen this guy in New Hampshire. 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.000 And I guess he felt like the walls were closing 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:37.560 in because he turned himself in and to the Concord 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:43.640 Police Department and was really just singing like a songbird 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.480 like to the Concord police, and then when the NYPD 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:50.560 got there, he was speaking voluntarily with him. 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:51.360 Uh. 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.520 He hated the NYPD. He hates the New York Times, 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:56.760 Like I said, he has a lot of disdain for 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:57.280 a lot. 0:16:57.200 --> 0:16:58.400 Of the things about New York. 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.720 Yeah, but yeah, he was just you know, if you 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:04.440 see these interviews, these are on videotape and you can 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:07.640 watch them, he's just very unapologetic about the whole thing. 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:08.920 And he still is. 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:11.000 You know, we'll read some like more modern quotes, but 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:13.720 he was always just like, yeah, this is how it happened. 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:15.960 I shot these guys. I wish I had more bullets. 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:18.200 And we'll read some quotes, you know, for sure. 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:20.560 He said some really chilling things, but also some really 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:23.919 contradictory stuff too. During that initial interview with the cops 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:27.280 in New Hampshire, he said things like, you know, I 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.280 wish it were a dream, you know, like he said, 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:33.920 I'm I think like I'm disgusted with myself where I'm disgusted. 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:36.520 It happened like he was of two minds, and then 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:39.080 he'd switch to like, if I had had more bullets, 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.520 I would have kept shooting, Like the problem was I 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:43.320 ran out of bullets, like he said, all sorts of 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:47.760 just different back and forth swinging stuff. But he was 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:52.560 also very lucid too. He wasn't like, yeah, he wasn't 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.760 knowing I think ever accused him or suggested he was 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:58.399 mentally ill, except for a judge, as we'll see. 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.119 But no, no temporary insanity talk or anything. 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:07.160 Nothing like that. Now. But he's almost universally characterized when 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.399 somebody writes a brief sketch of him as a loner. Yeah, 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.240 he didn't have very many friends. He didn't have much family, 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:16.720 if any, at that time. He was an electrical engineer 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:20.800 by education and trade. He went to NYU and he 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.680 had a business where he calibrated high end electrical equipment, 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:28.160 and that actually led to that business, led to his 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:33.879 first personal brush with violence in New York. And this 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:40.120 definitely set the foundation for the mindset that he had 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:42.960 when he got on that subway in December nineteen eighty four, 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:43.720 for sure. 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:48.359 Yeah, and set the groundwork for his eventual defense in court, 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:52.399 because in nineteen eighty one, he was mugged. He was 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:56.880 violently mugged in a subway station by three men. 0:18:57.200 --> 0:18:58.679 This is in nineteen eighty one. 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:02.119 Like I said, this is why he decided he needed 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:02.720 a gun. 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:04.560 He was beat up pretty bad. 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.399 They threw him into a plate glass window because he 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:11.359 had like electronic equipment and they wanted that stuff. So 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:14.840 apparently he suffered a permanent knee injury. Two of the 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:17.480 guys were never caught, And this is what really really 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:21.919 got him was the third guy was out of the 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:25.800 police station in a couple of hours, and gets was 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:30.359 there for like six hours. He was held, not held held, 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:32.800 but you know, he was there telling his side of 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:35.600 the story, and it took four hours longer for him 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:37.600 to get out of the police station. And that really 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:38.879 really stuck in his crawl. 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.400 Yeah, and I think ultimately that one guy that they 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:45.320 did catch was only ever charged with criminal mischief, and 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:48.360 I think under normal circumstances we wouldn't point this out, 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:50.879 but I think because of how the effect that it 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:54.200 had on Bernard Getz and how it helped transform him, 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:57.480 it's worth pointing our specifying that the three men who 0:19:57.560 --> 0:19:59.520 mugged him in nineteen eighty one were all black. 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:03.720 Yeah, I mean, that's where he got his at least, 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:07.280 you know, I'm sure he had feelings like that before, 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:11.240 but that's definitely what drilled it into him and got 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:14.120 him sort of on that path of thinking that way. 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:16.440 I guess about you know, all young black men in 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:18.760 New York at the time. It's definitely what led him 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:22.000 to get that gun. So had this not happened, I 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:24.600 didn't see anything that led me to believe that he 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:26.399 would have ever been the kind of guy to carry 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:29.720 a gun around. So that put the gun in his hand. 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.840