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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too. We're pretty sure and.

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Speaker 3: This is stuff you should know. That's right. Eighties History,

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Speaker 3: the New York City History edition.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, it's definitely. I mean, not just like New

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Speaker 2: York City history. This is one of the pivotal moments

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Speaker 2: in the history of New York.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, because everyone we are talking about somebody who,

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Speaker 1: as far as pop culture goes, was on the cover

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Speaker 1: of Time magazine. Somebody who has been in pop songs

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Speaker 1: by Billy Joel, of course, lou Reid, none other than

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Speaker 1: the Beastie Boys, has been a trivial pursuit answer, has

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Speaker 1: been a question on Jeopardy, has been mentioned in an

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Speaker 1: episode of Seinfeld even and of course here are we

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Speaker 1: talking at Josh.

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Speaker 2: Wow, Well, hold on, I can top your Time magazine.

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Speaker 2: He was also in Mad magazine.

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Speaker 3: Okay, also in Mad magazine.

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Speaker 1: So this must have been some entertainer or some revered

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Speaker 1: cultural icon.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Sure, in a roundabout way, but not really. I think

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Speaker 2: you're being coy or fay.

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Speaker 1: That's right, we're talking about Bernard Getz, the subway vigilante

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Speaker 1: who shot four teenagers on a subway train in New

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Speaker 1: York City and nineteen eighty four, when I was thirteen

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Speaker 1: years old.

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Speaker 3: I remember this very vividly. It was a very big deal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we should probably come out and say these

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Speaker 2: were unarmed teenagers too. And then I saw so there's

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Speaker 2: a book called Five Bullets by a legal correspondent named.

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Speaker 3: Elliott ness Smith.

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Speaker 2: Actually it's Elliott Smith, hyphen Nessess, good Guess Easton, that's

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Speaker 2: Sheena Easton. You're thinking of, thank you for helping me

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Speaker 2: tap dance.

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Speaker 3: Here Elliott Easton of the cars.

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Speaker 2: Well, anyway, i'll find his last name, but his first

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Speaker 2: name's Elliott. He wrote a book called five Bullets, and

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Speaker 2: it's about this, and he was I saw him being

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Speaker 2: interviewed and he was like, you know, were these kids

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Speaker 2: and he's like, yeah, that's I think. He said, that's

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Speaker 2: a fair question. He said they were teens, they were

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Speaker 2: eighteen or nineteen, but they.

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Speaker 3: Were also like grown adults by then.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, they were young men for sure. Ye. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: you call them kids, which a lot of people did,

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Speaker 2: was incorrect. But to also say that they were armed,

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Speaker 2: which a lot of people said was incorrect as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, unless you count to screwdriver.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but was that even them being armed?

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Speaker 1: I know, yeah, we'll get to all that, so I

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Speaker 1: guess we should sort of just say quickly.

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Speaker 3: The story maybe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And by the way, I really I liked your intro.

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Speaker 3: Oh thanks.

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Speaker 1: We'll get into the details of it, but the overall

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Speaker 1: story is that on the New York City train, on

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Speaker 1: the two train in December of nineteen eighty four, a

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Speaker 1: guy named Bernard gets thirty seven years old. He's an

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Speaker 1: electrical engineer. Still is still lives in the very same apartment,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of crazy. Really in the West Village, right,

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Speaker 1: I'm not even sure where it is.

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure it is.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I mean I might have bumped into him

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Speaker 1: one day, you never know. But yeah, he still lives

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Speaker 1: in the same place, which is a little crazy because

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Speaker 1: I've never heard him say one thing about New York

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Speaker 1: City that he likes. All I've ever heard him, and

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Speaker 1: I've listened to a lot of interviews, all I've ever

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Speaker 1: heard him do is complain about everything about New York.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's apparently still complaining about how New York was

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Speaker 2: in the eighties.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe so. But anyway, he was thirty seven at

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Speaker 1: the time. Took a seat on the New York City

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Speaker 1: subway I think of what was it, the two train,

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Speaker 1: and four eighteen and nineteen year olds got on. Barry Allen,

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Speaker 1: Troy Canty, Darryl Caby, and James Ramsure got on, and

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Speaker 1: we're being like, you know, I've been on trains sort

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Speaker 1: of back in the day. It doesn't happen a whole

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Speaker 1: lot anymore where teenagers or even older teenagers get on

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Speaker 1: and they start screwing around with people. They start being disruptive,

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Speaker 1: maybe even veiled, veiledly failedly failedly validly threatening, And that's

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Speaker 1: what was going on. And one of them, I believe

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Speaker 1: it was Canti, approached Bernard Gets and either said give

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Speaker 1: me five bucks or can I have five bucks? And

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Speaker 1: Bernard Gets pulled a gun out of his windbreaker and

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Speaker 1: shot each of them one by one, hitting two of

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Speaker 1: them in the back, and then fired a second bullet

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Speaker 1: at Darryl Kabe, who was you know, this is where

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Speaker 1: it gets a little confusing as to how exactly it

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Speaker 1: played out, and we'll get to all those details, but

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Speaker 1: he's the one that was. Nobody was killed. He was

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Speaker 1: the one that was injured the most. He ended up

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Speaker 1: paralyzed and brained image because the bullet entered his spine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's worth saying that when he shot Darryl

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Speaker 2: KB that second time, Darryl KB was cowering on a

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Speaker 2: subway bench in fear of his life and again was

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Speaker 2: not armed. So this is this is such a like

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Speaker 2: a difficult case to talk about because in some ways

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Speaker 2: you kind of have to provide context for Bernard Getz's mindset.

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Speaker 2: He he was not some insane person necessarily, but when

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Speaker 2: you find out more about him too, he becomes less

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Speaker 2: and less sympathetic of a of a person. And yet

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Speaker 2: at the same time, the victims of this were not

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Speaker 2: just like, you know, angels, even if in this one

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Speaker 2: particular incident they weren't necessarily doing anything and they certainly

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Speaker 2: weren't doing anything worth being shot and paralyzed for life over.

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Speaker 2: So the whole thing, it's it's just not cut and

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Speaker 2: dried or black and white, which makes the whole thing,

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Speaker 2: I guess real life essentially.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, none other than Al Sharpton back in

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Speaker 1: the day even said like, hey, these guys are no angels. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So like no one was ever and you know, Al

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Speaker 1: Sharpton's on the scene and he's saying that kind of

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Speaker 1: thing like contemporaneously. Then you know, like nobody who was

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Speaker 1: trying to paint these guys is like, you know, these

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Speaker 1: nice kids who are just on their way home from

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Speaker 1: the library or whatever. Right, So, yeah, we got to

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Speaker 1: frame this a little bit. And one of the ways

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Speaker 1: we should start is probably by talking a little bit

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Speaker 1: about New York City in nineteen eighty four. In the

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, which you know, pretty infamously was down on

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Speaker 1: its luck as a town and fairly riddled with crime.

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Speaker 2: It's fair to say, for sure, it had almost gone

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Speaker 2: bankrupt as a city in the seventies. I think it

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Speaker 2: was bailed out by like City Bank and some of

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Speaker 2: the other big banks and ODEM big time. And one

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Speaker 2: other thing too about New York was that crime, including

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Speaker 2: violent crime, was on the rise across the US, but

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Speaker 2: in New York it was increasing at a rate sixty

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Speaker 2: percent faster than any other big city. It was a

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Speaker 2: it was a totally different town than it is today. Yeah, Like,

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Speaker 2: for sure, all you have to do is look at

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Speaker 2: a picture of the interior of a subway from nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty four. Yeah, and compare it to the interior of

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Speaker 2: a subway today, and it will give you a really

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Speaker 2: good idea of kind of the general lawlessness that was

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Speaker 2: going on in New York at the time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think there were thirty eight crimes a day just

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Speaker 1: on the subway in New York City. And you know

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Speaker 1: I mentioned that last episode. I'm reading that Abel Ferrara book.

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Speaker 1: He's a New York guy, and so some of these

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Speaker 1: early stories from back then. He lived near Union Square,

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Speaker 1: like you know Union Square, New York.

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Speaker 2: Sure, I do have walked around in a circle, even

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Speaker 2: it's quite lovely.

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Speaker 1: Not when he lived there, which was in the eighties,

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Speaker 1: he said that he literally would not go into Union

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Speaker 1: Square at night, and he was he was a pretty

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Speaker 1: tough guy. Yeah, and that at one point, like the phone,

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Speaker 1: like New York City was in such bad shape, like

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Speaker 1: ma Bell went down for I feel like months, like

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Speaker 1: he said, nobody could call in or out from from

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Speaker 1: my neighborhood near Union Square.

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Speaker 2: That's like escape from New York type stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, Like he said, he used to pick

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Speaker 1: up the phone every day just to see if there

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Speaker 1: was a dial tone. And then finally one day there

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Speaker 1: was and he was like, oh my god, I can

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Speaker 1: I can call somebody.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was so bad New York was back in

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Speaker 2: this day that in Times Square people wouldn't go to

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Speaker 2: the Planet Hollywood or TGI Fridays, and both of them

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Speaker 2: almost went under.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Bubba Gump Shrimp was really suffering.

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Speaker 2: Yes, big time. So yeah, New York was a different place.

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Speaker 2: And this is actually this will help explain the reaction

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Speaker 2: that Bernard Getz got when he, I guess turned himself

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Speaker 2: in and became known as the subway vigilante. But before

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Speaker 2: that he was an unknown person. This was an unknown

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Speaker 2: perpetrator because after he shot Canty Alan kb Ramser, he

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Speaker 2: took off. He jumped out of the stopped subway car,

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Speaker 2: ran down the tracks, and then I guess hit a

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Speaker 2: platform and ran back up above ground and was on

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Speaker 2: the lamp for like seven or nine days, I think.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The subway conductor actually confronted him and was like, are

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Speaker 1: you a cop? And he said no, and he tried

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Speaker 1: to get the gun from Bernie Getz, which was a

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Speaker 1: Smith and Wesson thirty eight thirty eight caliber, and that's

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Speaker 1: that's when he took off and ran down the Chamber Street.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, he packed a bag, rented a car and

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Speaker 1: drove to New Hampshire.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think he passed through Vermont because I

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Speaker 2: heard that he buried the gun there and he was

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Speaker 2: really scared, like he was, I mean, as you would

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Speaker 2: be after something like that. He said that in the

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Speaker 2: moment he was totally out of control, but very quickly

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Speaker 2: after that he got really scared. So he was running

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Speaker 2: on the lamb because he was under the impression that

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Speaker 2: when New York got their hands on him. I think

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Speaker 2: he's he told a detective in New Hampshire, they're going

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Speaker 2: to wipe the floor with me. And it turned out

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Speaker 2: that the essentially the exact opposite happened to Bernard Gets

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Speaker 2: when he turned himself in nine days after the shooting

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Speaker 2: in New Hampshire.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the reaction generally from New York, I

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Speaker 1: mean it was divided in a way. It's not like

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Speaker 1: everyone felt this way, but there were enough people that

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Speaker 1: were like, yeah, good for him. This city is a

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Speaker 1: cesspool and somebody finally took up for themselves. That was

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Speaker 1: a sentiment like across racial lines, and race would play

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Speaker 1: a big part as we'll see, Like that's sort of

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Speaker 1: one of the uncomfortable things we have to talk about,

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Speaker 1: because Bernard gets very unapologetically in interviews, countless interviews over

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Speaker 1: the years, talked about you know, black men specifically is

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Speaker 1: what he would say over and over again, and the

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Speaker 1: violence and ruining the city. And I think you found

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Speaker 1: statistics right that like a lot of the like, hey,

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Speaker 1: we are on this guy side kind of crossed over

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Speaker 1: racial lines too, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't. It was not the way that you

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Speaker 2: would think of it. I think half of the Hispanic

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Speaker 2: population of New York said they support him in a

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Speaker 2: survey quickly afterward, and forty five percent of Black New

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Speaker 2: Yorkers said that they supported him too. And again it's because,

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Speaker 2: like you said, like a lot of these people had

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Speaker 2: their own experience with like being mugged or maybe intimidated

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Speaker 2: or something on the subway. So the idea of somebody

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Speaker 2: stepping forward and doing something really kind of resonated with

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Speaker 2: the people living in New York at the time, because

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Speaker 2: I read they might not all have been living in

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Speaker 2: constant fear like we'll see Bernard Getz was, but they

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Speaker 2: were constantly on alert. You had to like really know

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Speaker 2: what you were doing to live in New York or else.

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Speaker 2: You were putting yourself in jeopardy if you were naive

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Speaker 2: about that kind of thing. So the people were like, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's great. I'm glad somebody finally stood up to him.

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Speaker 2: The cops aren't doing anything, which was definitely a big

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Speaker 2: criticism of the NYPD and the New York judicial system

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Speaker 2: at the time, like a lot of crime was just

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Speaker 2: being overlooked because the major crimes were so overwhelming to

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Speaker 2: the cops in the courts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you said it best about just being alert,

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Speaker 1: because like I think sometimes this period of New York

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Speaker 1: gets painted as like, if you walk outside of your apartment,

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Speaker 1: there's a fifty to fifty chance you're going to get

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Speaker 1: mugged or murdered, right, And when you look at the stats,

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Speaker 1: it's shocking today to hear about like thirty eight literal

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Speaker 1: crimes on the subway every single day, because it's just

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Speaker 1: not like that now. But when you talk about how many,

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Speaker 1: you know, tens of thousands of people ride the subway,

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Speaker 1: it's still a low number, but it was high enough,

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Speaker 1: and everyone knew someone who knew someone who had had

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Speaker 1: this happen. If it hadn't happened to them that like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was a different time, but we just don't want

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Speaker 1: to paint it as like, you know, the wild West,

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Speaker 1: because it wasn't like that exactly.

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Speaker 2: No, But when the news of the subway vigilanti came out,

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Speaker 2: one of the things that really shaped the public opinion too,

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Speaker 2: and made it easier for people to be like, heck, yeah,

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Speaker 2: good for that guy. I love him. I think Joan

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Speaker 2: Rivers sent him a telegram that said loving kisses and

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Speaker 2: offered to help him with his bail money. People had

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Speaker 2: t shirts. Did you see that T shirt I sent

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Speaker 2: you that's available on eBay?

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Speaker 3: Oh, I thought you sent it in the mail. You

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Speaker 3: didn't buy me that.

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Speaker 2: It said thug busters and it said it quit Bernard

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Speaker 2: Getz has like I think a gun or something. No,

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Speaker 2: it had a bad guy with a circle in a

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Speaker 2: slash through like Ghostbusters.

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Speaker 3: I guess yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean that was you know, that was the public sentiment.

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Speaker 1: And it also had to do with the way initially

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Speaker 1: the press was being fed to them about this because

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Speaker 1: right all the information coming out was you know, hey,

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Speaker 1: these guys had screwdrivers in their pockets, they were trying

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Speaker 1: to mug him. They didn't focus on sort of the

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Speaker 1: shooting aspect, like that he had hollow point bullets, which

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Speaker 1: are of course even deadlier.

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Speaker 3: M I guess non hollow bullets. What are those called.

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Speaker 2: Regular bullet?

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Speaker 3: Regular bullets?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, talking to two newvies here with that stuff,

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Speaker 1: didn't talk about shooting them in the back. Initially in

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Speaker 1: the press, they talked, you know, they talked to Kanti's

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Speaker 1: brother and he was like, yeah, my brother free basis

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Speaker 1: cocaine and he was high that day on the subway.

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Speaker 1: So like all the stuff coming out in the news,

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Speaker 1: you know, supported like a more benevolent view of Bernard

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Speaker 1: Getz at first, at least.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. So there were some people that spoke

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Speaker 2: out against this. I think the columnist Jimmy Breslin was

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Speaker 2: publicly repulsed that people were celebrating an incident that left

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Speaker 2: a teenager in a wheelchair for life, and you know,

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Speaker 2: he had something to say about that. Mary ed Koch

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Speaker 2: was apparently the only public official who unconditionally condemned it.

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Speaker 2: He was basically saying, we will not tolerate vigilanteism. That's

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Speaker 2: the difference between the wild West and a civilized society.

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Speaker 2: And he had a really good point, but for the

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Speaker 2: most part, basically everybody. The loudest people were definitely the

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Speaker 2: ones who were supporting him. That the few people who

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Speaker 2: were like that was a hate crime, long before there

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Speaker 2: were any federal laws against hate crimes, were speaking out,

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Speaker 2: but they were in a minority. It seemed like. I

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Speaker 2: found a quote from a guy named James Q. Wilson,

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Speaker 2: who is a he's a I guess a public policy expert.

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Speaker 2: I think he was a conservative. He said that it

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Speaker 2: may be that there are no more liberals on the

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Speaker 2: crime and law and order issue in New York because

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Speaker 2: they've all been mugged, which I think kind of gets

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Speaker 2: across the idea that like, there weren't a lot of

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Speaker 2: people speaking out about this and against Bernard gets especially

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Speaker 2: at first.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, all right, I think we'd set the

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Speaker 3: table pretty nicely.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 3: You eat from the outside in.

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Speaker 2: Oh I've been doing it at the opposite my home.

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Speaker 2: I've been eating from bottom.

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Speaker 1: To toph No, no, no, that's not the way you

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Speaker 1: do it. You got to set the table the right way,

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Speaker 1: and we have done that. So we'll be right back

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Speaker 1: with more on the subway vigilante Bernard Getz. All right, So,

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Speaker 1: like we mentioned Bernard Getz hit the trail and a

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Speaker 1: rental a rental car went to New Hampshire. A man

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Speaker 1: hunt ensued, obviously. Uh, they put out a sketch of him,

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Speaker 1: and I guess someone had called in like, hey, I

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Speaker 1: think I might have seen this guy in New Hampshire.

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Speaker 1: And I guess he felt like the walls were closing

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Speaker 1: in because he turned himself in and to the Concord

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Speaker 1: Police Department and was really just singing like a songbird

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Speaker 1: like to the Concord police, and then when the NYPD

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Speaker 1: got there, he was speaking voluntarily with him.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 1: He hated the NYPD. He hates the New York Times,

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Speaker 1: Like I said, he has a lot of disdain for

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Speaker 1: a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of the things about New York.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, he was just you know, if you

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Speaker 1: see these interviews, these are on videotape and you can

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Speaker 1: watch them, he's just very unapologetic about the whole thing.

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Speaker 3: And he still is.

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Speaker 1: You know, we'll read some like more modern quotes, but

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Speaker 1: he was always just like, yeah, this is how it happened.

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Speaker 1: I shot these guys. I wish I had more bullets.

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Speaker 1: And we'll read some quotes, you know, for sure.

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Speaker 2: He said some really chilling things, but also some really

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Speaker 2: contradictory stuff too. During that initial interview with the cops

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Speaker 2: in New Hampshire, he said things like, you know, I

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Speaker 2: wish it were a dream, you know, like he said,

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Speaker 2: I'm I think like I'm disgusted with myself where I'm disgusted.

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Speaker 2: It happened like he was of two minds, and then

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Speaker 2: he'd switch to like, if I had had more bullets,

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Speaker 2: I would have kept shooting, Like the problem was I

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Speaker 2: ran out of bullets, like he said, all sorts of

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Speaker 2: just different back and forth swinging stuff. But he was

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Speaker 2: also very lucid too. He wasn't like, yeah, he wasn't

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Speaker 2: knowing I think ever accused him or suggested he was

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Speaker 2: mentally ill, except for a judge, as we'll see.

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Speaker 3: But no, no temporary insanity talk or anything.

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Speaker 2: Nothing like that. Now. But he's almost universally characterized when

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Speaker 2: somebody writes a brief sketch of him as a loner. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: he didn't have very many friends. He didn't have much family,

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Speaker 2: if any, at that time. He was an electrical engineer

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Speaker 2: by education and trade. He went to NYU and he

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Speaker 2: had a business where he calibrated high end electrical equipment,

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Speaker 2: and that actually led to that business, led to his

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Speaker 2: first personal brush with violence in New York. And this

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Speaker 2: definitely set the foundation for the mindset that he had

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Speaker 2: when he got on that subway in December nineteen eighty four,

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Speaker 2: for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and set the groundwork for his eventual defense in court,

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Speaker 1: because in nineteen eighty one, he was mugged. He was

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Speaker 1: violently mugged in a subway station by three men.

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Speaker 3: This is in nineteen eighty one.

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Speaker 1: Like I said, this is why he decided he needed

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Speaker 1: a gun.

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Speaker 3: He was beat up pretty bad.

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Speaker 1: They threw him into a plate glass window because he

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Speaker 1: had like electronic equipment and they wanted that stuff. So

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Speaker 1: apparently he suffered a permanent knee injury. Two of the

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Speaker 1: guys were never caught, And this is what really really

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Speaker 1: got him was the third guy was out of the

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Speaker 1: police station in a couple of hours, and gets was

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Speaker 1: there for like six hours. He was held, not held held,

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Speaker 1: but you know, he was there telling his side of

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Speaker 1: the story, and it took four hours longer for him

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Speaker 1: to get out of the police station. And that really

383
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Speaker 1: really stuck in his crawl.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think ultimately that one guy that they

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Speaker 2: did catch was only ever charged with criminal mischief, and

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Speaker 2: I think under normal circumstances we wouldn't point this out,

387
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Speaker 2: but I think because of how the effect that it

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Speaker 2: had on Bernard Getz and how it helped transform him,

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Speaker 2: it's worth pointing our specifying that the three men who

390
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Speaker 2: mugged him in nineteen eighty one were all black.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's where he got his at least,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure he had feelings like that before,

393
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Speaker 1: but that's definitely what drilled it into him and got

394
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Speaker 1: him sort of on that path of thinking that way.

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Speaker 1: I guess about you know, all young black men in

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Speaker 1: New York at the time. It's definitely what led him

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Speaker 1: to get that gun. So had this not happened, I

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Speaker 1: didn't see anything that led me to believe that he

399
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Speaker 1: would have ever been the kind of guy to carry

400
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Speaker 1: a gun around. So that put the gun in his hand.

401
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,840
Speaker 1: Was that mugging? He He applied for one legally in

402
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 1: New York, saying like, hey, I was mugged before for

403
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Speaker 1: this electronic equipment, and you know, sometimes I'm caring cash

404
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,200
Speaker 1: for my business. And they rejected that, saying he didn't

405
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Speaker 1: demonstrate sufficient need. He appealed that that got rejected, so

406
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Speaker 1: he bought a gun I think legally in Florida. Sorry

407
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,360
Speaker 1: about the thirty eight where his parents lived at the time.

408
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Speaker 2: Right, So yeah, I just want to like specify he

409
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Speaker 2: was turned down twice for a gun permit, and he

410
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Speaker 2: was like, I carry expensive equipment. I'm at risk of

411
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Speaker 2: being a tech It's already happened once. Yeah, And I

412
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Speaker 2: think that, in addition to the mugger being let go

413
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Speaker 2: hours before he was able to get out of the

414
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Speaker 2: police station after being mugged, those two things together, like

415
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,359
Speaker 2: not only did he now hate the NYPD, he now

416
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,399
Speaker 2: hated the New York City bureaucracy and he had no

417
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 2: faith in any of them. And in fact, during that

418
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,720
Speaker 2: interview when he turned himself in in nineteen eighty four

419
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 2: now or no, I guess it was New Year's even

420
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four, he was basically saying, like, if you

421
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,560
Speaker 2: stop protecting people, then you're in no position to pass

422
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,639
Speaker 2: moral judgment when they defend themselves in this, you know,

423
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 2: in the face of crime or whatever. And I think

424
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 2: that is essentially especially in that initial reporting where he

425
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 2: was held up. The four guys had sharpened screwdrivers. He

426
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,879
Speaker 2: had just shot at him, like, you know, that was

427
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 2: it that That is one of the reasons why so

428
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 2: many people were like yes to that guy, you know, yeah,

429
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 2: because they felt the same way. They felt like they've

430
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 2: been abandoned by the by the police and the courts,

431
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 2: and this was this guy who stood up for the

432
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 2: rest of us, like this every man who stood up

433
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Speaker 2: and said enough. And that's that was the support for him.

434
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Speaker 3: Yeah.

435
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:23,679
Speaker 1: I mean this is also on the heels of the

436
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 1: Death Wish movies. Yeah, so that kind of vigilantism was

437
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,640
Speaker 1: you know, celebrated in movie theaters with Chryls Bunsen. Here's

438
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 1: a quote from Getz in that interview. He said, I

439
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 1: wanted to kill those guys. I wanted to maim those guys.

440
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,440
Speaker 1: Wanted to make them suffer in every way I could.

441
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,919
Speaker 1: And you can't understand this because it's a realm of

442
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,639
Speaker 1: reality you're not familiar with. If I had more bullets,

443
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,919
Speaker 1: I would have shot them all again and again. My

444
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 1: problem was I ran out of bullets. It should be

445
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 1: noted he only had five bullets in a six bullet

446
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 1: capable revolver.

447
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 3: That's what they're probably just say revolver. Most people know

448
00:22:58,040 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 3: what that is.

449
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,400
Speaker 2: How how many bullets came as that was a revolver

450
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:01,880
Speaker 2: there died.

451
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 1: Well, there are some revolvers have eight bullets, but the

452
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: standard is six. So eventually he was indicted. It kind

453
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: of took a meandering road to finally arrive there, but

454
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 1: he was eventually charged with attempted murder, assault, reckless endangerment,

455
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 1: and a slew of firearms charges. But at the end

456
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,119
Speaker 1: of January eighty five was the first go round with

457
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,439
Speaker 1: a grand jury. They did not indict him except for

458
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 1: illegal weapons possession. Apparently there was a DA at the

459
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: time that was up for reelection, didn't you know. Bernard

460
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 1: Getz was very popular, so he didn't want to like

461
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 1: try too hard to bring serious charges, so he didn't

462
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 1: call victims to testify or anything like that. As the

463
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: details start leaking out, you know, and these quotes start

464
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 1: coming out, the DA is kind of cornered to like, like,

465
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 1: I have to really do this so they can mean.

466
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 1: A new grand jury in March of that year and

467
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: made the case for murder, assault, recored you know, all

468
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 1: the charges he was eventually charged with and brought in

469
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: at least Kanty and Rams sure to testify along with eyewitnesses.

470
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 2: This time Yeah, So the grand jury indicted him, I think,

471
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 2: on thirteen counts total, and very shortly after that all

472
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 2: all thirteen counts got thrown out. The whole case got

473
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 2: thrown out because the defense made a successful case that

474
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 2: the I think the prosecutor had the DA had given

475
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: poor instructions to the grand jury, and that Ramser and

476
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 2: Canty had perjured themselves. Right, And so it looked like

477
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: he was going to get off again. And then I

478
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 2: think a few months later an appeals court said, no,

479
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 2: get back in there, let's actually do this thing. So

480
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 2: by the summer of nineteen eighty six, it looked like

481
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 2: he was going to definitely be tried in a serious

482
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,360
Speaker 2: manner for some very serious charges.

483
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. He obviously pleaded not guilty. He claimed

484
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,400
Speaker 1: self defense and and I guess we should go into

485
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 1: a little more detail about what happened on the train.

486
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: You know, I mentioned these guys all four got on.

487
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: They were being rude, they were being inconsiderate. You know, again,

488
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 1: you've if you've been to New York City and ridden

489
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: the subway, you've probably seen behavior kind of like this

490
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 1: at some point.

491
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 3: It makes everyone very uncomfortable.

492
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 1: But you never know if it's like these days, you're

493
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: probably like, it's not a real threat, let's just kind

494
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: of ignore it.

495
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 3: Back then, it probably seemed much more like a real threat.

496
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 1: Apparently, Troy Canty went up to gets directly and said

497
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: and his best as Joey Tribiani, how you doing, asked

498
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: them a couple more questions, just like, you know, just

499
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: kind of messing with them, small talk stuff, gets kind

500
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: of answered briefly, and gets his you know, obviously getting

501
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: kind of worked up at this point.

502
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 3: This is a guy who had had enough.

503
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: Barry Allen and Troy Canty approached him, and that is

504
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 1: when the sort of controversial line of gimme five bucks

505
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: or can I get five bucks happened. Either way, gimme

506
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: five bucks doesn't sound like a mugging, like give me

507
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: all your money, sucker.

508
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 3: That sounds like a mugging to me.

509
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 2: Or give me all your love and all your hugs

510
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: and kisses too.

511
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 3: That's right.

512
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: But there's something about the specificity of the five bucks

513
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 1: to me take some threat out of it. But this

514
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: is just my dumb opinion all these years later.

515
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 2: Well that's funny because I've read some I've read a

516
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: few people who have said like five bucks is way

517
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 2: different back then than it is today. Like, if you

518
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 2: were panhandling, you asked for a quarter, which is essentially

519
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 2: the same as asking somebody for a dollar today. Ask

520
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 2: you for five bucks was like asking for fifteen bucks today.

521
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 2: And I said, somebody say, like asking for a quarter's

522
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 2: panhandling back then, asking for five dollars was robbery essentially,

523
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 2: so that amount actually did make a have an impact

524
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 2: on the criminal case.

525
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm talking about my opinion on the specificity,

526
00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: not the amount of money.

527
00:26:58,920 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: Oh I got you.

528
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: Sure, Like asking for a specific amount of money just

529
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: to me feels less threatening than like, hey, give me

530
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 1: everything in your wallet right now.

531
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 2: Oh gotcha? Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. That's a really

532
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 2: good point. I see it to me.

533
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's just me. But that's when he again

534
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,479
Speaker 1: unzipped his windbreaker, pulled out the gun. This whole thing

535
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: was over in twenty seconds. Happened very quickly. Wow, he

536
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 1: fired five shots in the subway car with I think

537
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 1: there were like fifteen to twenty other people on the car.

538
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: We should mention, which you know makes it obviously super

539
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: dangerous thing to do.

540
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's that reckless endangerment thing.

541
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So he started with Canty hit him in

542
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 1: the chest. All these guys are running for cover. Obviously

543
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 1: Alan was hitting the back. Ram sure was hit in

544
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: the arm, arms and chests. So I guess the single

545
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: shot kind of, you know, did that magic bullet thing.

546
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 1: And then this is where I got a little confused,

547
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 1: because it was a little confusing as to whether the

548
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 1: fourth or fifth bullet hit KB. Everything I've seen, I

549
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: guess says that the fourth bullet miss them. And that's

550
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: when Gets walked up to him when he was cowering

551
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 1: the corner and either did or did not say something

552
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 1: to him that was never completely established, but Get said

553
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: himself that he told him you don't look too bad.

554
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: Here's another and fired the fifth shot into his spine.

555
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: But there was some contention because apparently no one else

556
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: heard that, and Gets may have just been like kind

557
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 1: of fantasizing that.

558
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not clear. But everything up to that point

559
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,360
Speaker 2: where he allegedly walked over to KB and said that

560
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 2: and shot him again, everybody basically like, yeah, that's what happened, right.

561
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 2: There were some other points of contention though, too. In

562
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: addition to walking over and shooting KB in the back

563
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: at point blank range. One of them is were they

564
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 2: trying to rob Bernard Gets?

565
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah.

566
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 2: And the reason why that's so important in the difference

567
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: between give me five bucks or can I have five bucks?

568
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 2: The whole crime case hinged on that. Yeah, because in

569
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 2: New York law at the time, I believe they probably

570
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 2: changed it since the Bernard Gets case, it was okay

571
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 2: for you to use deadly force if you reasonably believed

572
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 2: that you were about to be robbed, even if the

573
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: other people weren't threatening like bodily harm or deadly force.

574
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: Somebody came up to you and said give me your wallet,

575
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 2: you could just plug them full of holes and walk

576
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 2: away with the self defense like defense, right, the Charles

577
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 2: Bronson rule pretty much. Yeah, So all that the all

578
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: the defense had to prove was that a reasonable person

579
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 2: in Bernard Gets the situation would have believed that they

580
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 2: were being robbed. That was the low bar that they

581
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 2: had to overcome. And on the other side, the prosecution

582
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 2: was like, no, man, we have to prove that he

583
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 2: wanted to kill those kids, that his intent was murder,

584
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 2: that it was reckless endangerment, all the other charges that

585
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: were against All the defense had to do to get

586
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 2: him acquitted. Was just proved that one part, because that

587
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 2: use of deadly force then would have been authorized across

588
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 2: the whole thing.

589
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Other points of contention is they did

590
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,719
Speaker 1: have two screwdrivers. They said that they were going to

591
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: break into arcade games and steal the money. They never

592
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: like pulled out the screwdrivers and held them at his

593
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: throat or anything like that. Get said that he could

594
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: see the outline of the screwdrivers in their pockets. That's

595
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: what he claimed to court at least. And one of

596
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: the NYPD cops claimed that Canty had said to him,

597
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: you know, when they were on the scene kind of

598
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: talking about what was going on, said we were trying

599
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: to rob the guy. Canty said, no, I never said that,

600
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: And no one on the train, because they had eyewitnesses,

601
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: could corroborate the officer's story. And then Jimmy Breslin you

602
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, the very famous New York City Beat reporter.

603
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: He interviewed Kab in the hospital about a year afterward,

604
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: and he claimed that Kaby acknowledged that they were going

605
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: to rob him because he looked like quote, easy bait.

606
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: But KB says, no, I never told him that and

607
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: people are like, well, this guy had suffered brain damage

608
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: at this point, so you know, who knows if that's

609
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: reliable testimony or not testimony, but whatever.

610
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 3: Jimmy Breslin wrote about.

611
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,959
Speaker 2: Right, and that robbing our Kide Games alibi actually definitely

612
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 2: checked out, Like everybody believes that that's what they were

613
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 2: going to do because they had a history of that

614
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 2: and I think Troy Knty had been convicted for stealing

615
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 2: fourteen dollars in quarters out of our Kade Games, So

616
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 2: that's almost certainly what they were going to do, which

617
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 2: really undermines the idea that they were robbing Bernard Gets right, then.

618
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. Then there was a contention of how that

619
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 1: last shot went down. What was he doing right before

620
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: he got shot in the back? Bernard Gets His attorney

621
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: claimed that he was that Kaby was standing up when

622
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: he was shot, but everybody there, like every single eyewitness

623
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: and Gets said, no, he was seated, And people are like,

624
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,239
Speaker 1: he was sort of cowering in the corner of the

625
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,479
Speaker 1: subways in a seat, like yeah, kind of cornered, couldn't

626
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: go anywhere, and you know, frightened out of his life,

627
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,959
Speaker 1: and so that's when he shot him.

628
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 3: In the back.

629
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 2: Even Gets in the interview in New Hampshire when he

630
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 2: turned himself in, said that when he walked over to

631
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 2: Darryl Kby, he saw like genuine fear in his eyes,

632
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 2: and that's when things started to slow down. Like the

633
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 2: adrenaline rush or whatever that was like he was operating

634
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: on started to slow. In addition to his demonstrated bigotry,

635
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 2: which we haven't really talked much about. That you did

636
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 2: a little bit, but he had a history of publicly

637
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 2: using racial slurs. His bigotry was just on full display

638
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 2: pretty frequently, from what witnesses and other residents in his

639
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 2: building would later say. In addition to that, like he

640
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: went over and shot an unarmed kid cowering for his life,

641
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,959
Speaker 2: point blank, ring in the spine, and paralyzed him for life. So,

642
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 2: no matter what you think about the rest of it,

643
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 2: like that, those two things make it really really hard

644
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 2: to sympathize with Bernard Getz. Even though I can still

645
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 2: sympathize with anybody who is living in fear on a

646
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 2: daily basis, I don't want that for anybody.

647
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: All right, I think it's a good time for a break. Yeah, sure,

648
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,239
Speaker 1: all right, we'll be back, right after this with more

649
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: than Bernard Getz.

650
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: So the actual, real legitimate criminal trial got underway in

651
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 2: December nineteen eighty six, ran all the way to June

652
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven, and it took them four months just

653
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 2: to seat a jury. Yeah, because Bernard guests was. I mean,

654
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:04,719
Speaker 2: all you have to say is that he was in

655
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 2: Mad magazine to get across like what a pop culture

656
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 2: icon and this guy was I saw a folk hero

657
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 2: used many times to describe him. Yeah, and just to

658
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 2: find anybody who had not really heard of him or

659
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 2: had claimed did not really form any opinion on the

660
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 2: whole thing was very difficult in New York at the time.

661
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's still difficult probably.

662
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 2: Sure.

663
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: So they got you know, obviously they had all of

664
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: those recordings when he was singing like a canary about himself,

665
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: so they had that in court to play. They had

666
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: victim testimony, like Troy Canty. Not all of them talked,

667
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: but Troy Canty was granted immunity in exchange for his testimony.

668
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: That's when he told them about you know, robbing the

669
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 1: video games. That's when he claimed, you know, mister Kenna

670
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 1: have five dollars and that he said, get said you

671
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 1: can all have it like Charles Bronson and pulled out

672
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 1: the gun. He said that he heard Kby's crying out,

673
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: why did he shoot me? Why did he shoot me?

674
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: Barry Allen pled the fifth. He was not granted immunity,

675
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: so he did not. He pled the fifth for every question. Basically,

676
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: James Ramser's involvement in the testimony was a little weird.

677
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 1: We couldn't find it. I saw that he was granted immunity.

678
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: Josh saw that he wasn't. So it's kind of hard

679
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: to parse it out. But either way, he refused to

680
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: take the stand. Judge found him in contempt and removed

681
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 1: him from court initially, and we'll get to it, but

682
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: he would later come back right.

683
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 2: And then don't forget the eyewitnesses who were recklessly endangered

684
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: by the shooting too. On the subway car. One was

685
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 2: Amanda Gilbert who was trying to render aid to one

686
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: of the I don't know who it was, but one

687
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 2: of them said, miss I've been shot through the heart

688
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 2: and I'm dying. And then Darryl Kaby said, I didn't

689
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 2: do anything. He shot me for nothing, and that had

690
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 2: I'm sure an effect on the jury. But the judge

691
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 2: was like, that's here, so throw out that testimony.

692
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 3: That's right.

693
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: Victor Flores was another eyewitness. He said the shots all

694
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: came in quick succession, which I think most people agree on.

695
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: He said the kids were frightened, backing off, trying to

696
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: get away. There was no reason to shoot them. And

697
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: he's one of the ones that said Getz did not

698
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 1: speak to KB before he shot him. But then there

699
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 1: was Christopher either Boucher or Bouchet, I'm not sure how

700
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 1: he pronounced it bo bo u c h R. He

701
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,439
Speaker 1: was near kV when that fish shot happened. And here

702
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: was the back and forth on the stand. What did

703
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: the person who was sitting down do at the moment

704
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: the shot was fired. Well, he was sitting grasping the

705
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: bench and he was just frightened. Did you ever see

706
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: that person try to get out of the seat. No,

707
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: did you ever see him threatening mister Getz?

708
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 3: No? Did he have anything in his hand that you saw? No?

709
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 3: Any doubt you saw a person sitting in that seat

710
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 3: when he was shot and fired, No, no doubt. How

711
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 3: is your eyesight? It's perfect?

712
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so not really good as far as the defense goes.

713
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 2: After that, the prosecution was like, we need to get

714
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 2: James Ramser up there. He was one of the victims.

715
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 2: He obviously is a witness, so we need to find

716
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 2: out what he has to say. And that was a

717
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 2: really bad move for the prosecution because we had mentioned

718
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 2: before that, you know, even Al Sharpton was like, these

719
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 2: guys are no angels. It wasn't because they robbed video games.

720
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 2: That would be a stupid thing to say. The reason

721
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,760
Speaker 2: people say that kind of thing is because five months

722
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 2: after the shooting, James Ramser was indicted for participating in

723
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: a brutal, violent rape and robbery and I think in

724
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 2: his own building. So I mean they had much deeper

725
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 2: criminal records than stealing from from video games. That's why

726
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 2: we said that at the outset, and James rams Are

727
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 2: in particular, he was, I guess cited for contempt. You

728
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 2: said the second time he basically did the same thing.

729
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 2: He was like, he wouldn't answer questions. He was the

730
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: definition of a hostile witness. And that alone, even though

731
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 2: all of that was thrown out by the judge, the

732
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 2: jury saw that too. Yeah, and that definitely his behavior

733
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 2: in court reflected on the other four two And I'm

734
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 2: sure a lot of the members of the jury were

735
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 2: just looking for a reason to not sympathize with the

736
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 2: four victims, you know what I mean, Yeah, for sure,

737
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 2: to try to figure out a way for Bernard Gets

738
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,240
Speaker 2: to get off. And James Ramser definitely made it easier

739
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 2: on them with his testimony.

740
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, they did some They brought in

741
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 1: some expert expert testimony. Basically one guy who was a

742
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: neuropsychiatrist named Bernard Yudwitz, and he basically threw out a

743
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: fight or flight response and a journal adrenaline response that

744
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: like once that kicks in, he said he was on

745
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: autopilot and that all of those shots, like he it

746
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,399
Speaker 1: was a single act like that adrenaline doesn't come down

747
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 1: until afterward and he can then consider what's happening, and

748
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 1: they happened so quickly.

749
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 3: He was like, it was basically like one thing happened.

750
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: And then he had a bullet expert, a ballistics guy

751
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: named Joseph Quirk who testified that KB was shot actually

752
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: by the fourth bullet when he was standing up, not

753
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: by the fifth while he was seated, and that entered

754
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: his spine and threw him backward into the seat. I

755
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: think kind of instantly paralyzing him. And then you know,

756
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,760
Speaker 1: they did a re enactment with the Guardian Angels playing.

757
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,280
Speaker 1: You know, they got the biggest, baddest, roughest looking Guardian

758
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 1: Angels they could to play these guys. They took a

759
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: field trip to a subway car and you know, took

760
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:48,800
Speaker 1: the jury out there and was like, you know, imagine

761
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 1: what it was like and sitting in this car and

762
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 1: you know, they were kind of pulling out all the stops.

763
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and supposedly the subway car tour really kind of

764
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 2: solidified things for the jury because they said later that

765
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 2: they could see how Guts would have felt trapped. So,

766
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 2: out of the thirteen counts that he was indicted and

767
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 2: tried for, he was only found guilty on one. Everything

768
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 2: the murder attempts, the assault, the reckless endangerment, all of

769
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 2: it he was found not guilty on. The only guilty

770
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 2: charge was the illegal firearm charge.

771
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

772
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: Apparently, like you know, they're reading each account how they

773
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: do individually, And when the count against Darryl KB, like

774
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 1: who was sitting in there in a wheelchair, came out, Yeah, apparently,

775
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: like there were audible gasps in the courtroom and they said, yeah,

776
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 1: it was self defense. He was not trying to kill

777
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: these guys, is what they said. And they found that

778
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: reasonable doubt. You know that the I think the adrenaline

779
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: response weighed in the self defense of you know, like

780
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: the New York law at the time, like you were

781
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: talking about, like there was enough reasonable doubt at least

782
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: as far as the jury.

783
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 3: Was concerned to not convict him.

784
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, So he got off with I think two hundred

785
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 2: and fifty days in prison. I don't think he had

786
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 2: any community service, even he was initially going to have

787
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 2: five years probation and they revoked that. So that was

788
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,320
Speaker 2: it for Bernard Getz. He just went back to life

789
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 2: for a while. And then ten years later Darryl Cabe

790
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 2: filed a civil case against him, And this one was

791
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,879
Speaker 2: by nineteen ninety six, New York was a different place, yeah,

792
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 2: than it was in nineteen eighty six, like dramatically different,

793
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 2: and so a jury would not have had the same

794
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 2: experience that the jury in nineteen eighty six would have

795
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 2: had from living in New York for sure, And that

796
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,800
Speaker 2: was definitely reflected in the outcome, which found in Daryl

797
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 2: Caby's favor.

798
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, gets didn't really offer much defense at all in

799
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 1: the civil trial. I think probably because he was a

800
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: private guy. He wanted to put all this behind him,

801
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: and he knew he would never pay anything anyway, So

802
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: the jury never heard about him being mugged that first time.

803
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: I think they the defense did call some people. They

804
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: called Jimmy Breslin to testify about KB, the officer that

805
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: testified that Canty told him they were trying to rob him.

806
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 3: They called him in.

807
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: That was it, basically, except the one big change this

808
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: time was that Gets took the stand to testify and

809
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: said things like, you know, I thought about gouging out

810
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:26,800
Speaker 1: their eyes with keys after I shot them. Darryl CABE's

811
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: mom would have been better off if she would have

812
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: not gone through with that pregnancy. I was trying to

813
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 1: get as many of them as I could, so he

814
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 1: was he didn't care at this point, I think.

815
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 2: No, And like you said, he's still saying stuff like

816
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 2: that too. Right, there's no remorse or I saw no

817
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 2: self reflection, like he feels the exact same way now

818
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 2: that he did back then, which was awful.

819
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:50,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

820
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: I got a quote from I mean, I read a

821
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 1: New York Times article from January this year. Yeah, because

822
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: I think there's a couple of books that came out

823
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 1: this year. Yeah, and he said, you know, the important

824
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: thing is is that I shot the right guys and

825
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: no innocent bystanders were heard.

826
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. That one of those books was Five Bullets and

827
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 2: the author's name is Elliott Williams.

828
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 3: That's right.

829
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think the jury found in favor of

830
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 2: Darryl Kaby and said that gets owed him forty three

831
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 2: million dollars and gets like you said, I guess he

832
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 2: knew that he was never going to pay it, immediately

833
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 2: file bankruptcy and still to this day, Daryl Caby's never

834
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:29,720
Speaker 2: seen a penny of that money.

835
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. Gets you know again, it's in that same apartment.

836
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 3: Still.

837
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: I guess he's got a pretty sweet rent control situation,

838
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: would be my guest. Sounds like Kent, but he ran

839
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 1: for mayor in New York in two thousand and one

840
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: pushing he's a vegetarian, pushing vegetarian minus.

841
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 3: Apparently he works in squirrel rescue and rehabilitation.

842
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:54,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, and also still runs his electronics business

843
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 1: out of his apartment. And he then ran in two

844
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: thousand and five for public Advocate on the platform against

845
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 1: circumcision and in favor of power naps for New York

846
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:07,919
Speaker 1: City workers.

847
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:10,479
Speaker 2: I saw that in two thousand and one, not only

848
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 2: Bernard gets ran for Mary, but so did the real

849
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:14,760
Speaker 2: Kramer Kenny Kramer.

850
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: Gets Is also arrested himself later for dealing drugs in

851
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, or at least trying to sell drugs to

852
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 1: an undercover officer.

853
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, he became a huge pro pot advocate apparently too,

854
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 2: which is a pretty surprising outcome. So as for the

855
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 2: four victims, Darryl Kby again he was paralyzed for life

856
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 2: from the abdomen down and it suffered brain damage. Alan

857
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 2: Barry Allen and Troy Canty were both in prison back

858
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety six during the civil trial, and James

859
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,359
Speaker 2: Ramser had been in and out of prison, including one

860
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 2: charge of trying faking his own kidnapping, and then he

861
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 2: died in twenty eleven, I think, twenty seven years to

862
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 2: the day of the subway shooting in nineteen eighty four,

863
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 2: of an overdose that is widely suspected to have been purposeful.

864
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had He's sort of twenty five years in

865
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: prison total after that shooting, so he had a rough

866
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: go of it and that is. I've been wanting to

867
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:24,439
Speaker 1: do this in for a while. This one's been sitting

868
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: in the inbox for a long time.

869
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's a big thanks to Julia for putting

870
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:28,240
Speaker 3: this together.

871
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks Julia. If you want to know more about

872
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 2: Bernard Gets, you could start with those two books that

873
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 2: came out recently that Chuck just mentioned, Five Bullets by

874
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 2: Elliott Williams and Fear and Fury colon the Reagan Eighties,

875
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 2: The Bernard Gets Shootings and The Rebirth of White Rage

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00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 2: by Heather Ann Thompson.

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00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 3: My inclination is goes by bullets because of no colon.

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00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 2: Okay, well, since Chuck cited a preference for no colon's,

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00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 2: it's time for listener now.

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00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 3: That's right. I don't even know why I picked this

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00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 3: one to read. I just thought it was kind of funny.

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00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: Hey, guys, just listening to the Camp David episode and

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00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: was shocked to learn that Camp David is in Maryland.

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00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: I thought it was in Texas for some reason, and

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00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,439
Speaker 1: I sheepishly went to my fiance to talk to him

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00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: about it. Before I confess my embarrassing mistake, I said, Hey,

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00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: by the way, you know Camp David, where do you

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00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 1: think it is, and he said Texas. So it made

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00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: me wonder why we both thought thought Camp David was

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00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: in Texas. Perhaps it's a millennial thing. I'm very curious

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00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 1: if any of your listeners thought the same. Anyway, I

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00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 1: thought you might find this amusing.

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00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 3: I did. Rachel, thank you.

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00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 1: For a great work and for being my weekly companions

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00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 1: for more than a decade. And that is Rachel and Raleigh,

896
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 1: North Carolina and Rachel. We did not hear from anyone

897
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 1: else about Texas. But hey, if you and your fiance

898
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: both went to Texas or you know with your first answer,

899
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 1: then there's got to be something to it.

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00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 2: Sure they're from a different timeline.

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00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say look within yourself, all.

902
00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 2: Right and find Texas.

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00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:00,879
Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: If you want to be like Rachel, was it, that's right?

905
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,439
Speaker 2: And send us a great email where you confess some

906
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 2: strange belief that only you and your fiance have. We

907
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:13,439
Speaker 2: would love to hear it. You can send it off

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00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 2: to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

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00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

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00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,879
Speaker 3: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:29,840
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,