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Speaker 1: I feel like there was such a push to everything

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Speaker 1: digital in COVID, and now that things are kind of

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Speaker 1: opening up. Even though the numbers continue to go up,

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Speaker 1: it seems like we're getting more and more and more digital.

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Speaker 1: I thought things would go back. People are saying, no

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Speaker 1: more menus, that's over QR codes only.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, you got a QR code on your table. And

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Speaker 2: you know what's funny, Jimmy he doesn't have a smart phone,

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Speaker 2: so when he goes to restaurants, he's out of luck

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Speaker 2: because if they don't have menus to pass out, he

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Speaker 2: has to hope somebody with him will let him use

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Speaker 2: their phone to be able to look at the menu.

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Speaker 1: It also reminds me of when people were saying we

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Speaker 1: don't take cash because of COVID. But I'm like, all right,

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Speaker 1: y'all are in here allowing people to die maskless, but

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Speaker 1: still saying you don't take cash. If you're trying to

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Speaker 1: go all digital and you're trying to get rid of

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Speaker 1: the cash and coins, just say that right, no have zis.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But all of those things I think are just indicators

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Speaker 1: of this widening digital divide. Absolutely, and I think maybe

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Speaker 1: in more places than we really lives and we really

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Speaker 1: ought to talk about it. I'm TT and I'm Zachiah

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Speaker 1: and from Spotify. This is Dope Labs. Welcome to Dope Labs.

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Speaker 2: A weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science, pop culture, and

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Speaker 2: a healthy doser friendship.

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Speaker 1: This week, we're talking all about the state of internet

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Speaker 1: access in the United States and how a lack of

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Speaker 1: internet access affects different areas of our lives.

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Speaker 2: So let's get into the recitation, all right, So what

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Speaker 2: do we know?

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Speaker 1: Well, I think we know many of us are using

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Speaker 1: the internet every day in our work lives, but definitely

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Speaker 1: also in our personal lives.

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Speaker 2: Right, And I feel like everyone is online, like everyone

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Speaker 2: has to be online because of the way that our

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Speaker 2: culture is set up.

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Speaker 1: And what we know from my episode with Christina Morillo

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Speaker 1: is that there is a lot of data about us online.

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Speaker 2: So true, So what do we want to know?

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Speaker 1: I think we want to know who has Internet access

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Speaker 1: and who doesn't. Even though it feels like everybody's online

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Speaker 1: and that you have to be online, I'm sure there

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Speaker 1: is not one hundred percent online participation across the United States.

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Speaker 2: Right, And I want to know about the pitfalls with

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Speaker 2: the internet. Everything's moving to be online. Every application. You know,

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Speaker 2: you're applying for a loan, you're applying for a house, anything,

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Speaker 2: you have to do it online. And so I'm wondering,

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Speaker 2: because all of these things are man made, are there

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Speaker 2: any biases that they have found with algorithms and just

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Speaker 2: the Internet in general and how it plays a role

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Speaker 2: in our day to day lives.

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Speaker 1: I think we're ready. Let's jump into the dissection.

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Speaker 2: Our guest for today's lab is doctor Nicole Turner Lee.

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Speaker 3: I'm a senior fellow in Governance Studies at the Brookings

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Speaker 3: Institution and I'm also the director of the Center for

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Speaker 3: Technology Innovation, and I have a forthcoming buck which is

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Speaker 3: on the US Digital Divide entitled Digitally Invisible. How the

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Speaker 3: Internet is creating the new Underclass.

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Speaker 1: It feels like so much of life is happening online,

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Speaker 1: between social media, working from home, telehealth, which was booming

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Speaker 1: after the pandemic. I think it's easy for a lot

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Speaker 1: of us to take Internet access for granted. I don't

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Speaker 1: care where you are now, they're not making menus anymore.

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Speaker 1: It's a QR code for everything code.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The thing we have to remember is not everyone has

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Speaker 1: access to the Internet, and even if they do, not

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Speaker 1: all internet access is the same. Doctor Turner calls this

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Speaker 1: gap and access the digital divide.

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Speaker 3: We have had this divide way before the pandemic, right,

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Speaker 3: there were always people who on the wrong side of

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Speaker 3: digital opportunity. There was no Facebook when I was growing up,

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Speaker 3: no Instagram, five to FI. So when I started in

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Speaker 3: this space, I was a digital activist working in City Chicago,

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Speaker 3: really training people on how to set up email accounts.

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Speaker 3: And what we found during the process is that more

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Speaker 3: jobs were going online. As a results of that, more

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Speaker 3: people had to figure out ways to create a resume

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Speaker 3: and Microsoft Office uploaded to an email account. We see

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Speaker 3: now that it's gone further where you have to use

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Speaker 3: certain software applications to apply for jobs.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Turner Lee says that while innovation around some of

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Speaker 2: these technologies and digital systems has been fast, not everyone

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Speaker 2: is using or has access to the technology, and all

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Speaker 2: of this was exacerbated by COVID.

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Speaker 3: The pandemic revealed that if you were not connected, you

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Speaker 3: could not make an appointment for vaccinations, you could not work,

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Speaker 3: you could not learn, you couldn't even memorialize your friends

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Speaker 3: and family members who were lost as a result of

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Speaker 3: this pandemic.

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Speaker 1: This is so important, right, and I think we saw

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Speaker 1: this with a lot of older folks. You know, I

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Speaker 1: can remember this, and this disparity, even though it's digital, is.

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Speaker 2: Having very real effects on right day to day lives.

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Speaker 2: I remember when the pandemic hit and there were a

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Speaker 2: lot of kids that were, you know, trying to do

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Speaker 2: virtual school and they didn't have internet at home, and

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Speaker 2: so their parents would have to find a place where

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Speaker 2: they could get internet so that they could log in

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Speaker 2: and have virtual school. So there were some kids that

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Speaker 2: were having virtual school in their parents' car, in a library,

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Speaker 2: anywhere where they could find internet. Not just let you

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Speaker 2: know that it's not just as easy as turning on

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Speaker 2: your device.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Doctor Turnerlee shared even more info about how the

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Speaker 1: digital divide played out in education.

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Speaker 3: So at March when we had the beginnings of the pandemic,

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Speaker 3: and if you all remember, around March through April, we

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Speaker 3: were at peak numbers. We had to send fifty million

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Speaker 3: school aged kids home from one hundred and ninety five

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Speaker 3: thousand school districts across the US. And we thought it

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Speaker 3: was going to be easy. We figured, hey, these are

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Speaker 3: young people, they're resilient. We'll put them online and we'll

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Speaker 3: make sure we give them laptops and figure that out.

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Speaker 3: Two things happen as we were scurrying to get Internet

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Speaker 3: enabled devices.

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Speaker 4: We realized that K.

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Speaker 3: Through twelve students who were in public schools did not

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Speaker 3: have access to Internet enabled devices as.

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Speaker 4: Part of their school ecosystem.

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Speaker 3: Generally, there was no budget right before the pandemic.

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Speaker 4: Not only could we not give kids.

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Speaker 3: Tablets, we also found that we did not have broadband

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Speaker 3: service in the home.

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Speaker 4: So let's talk about that.

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Speaker 3: Fifty million schools ledged kids sent home fifteen to sixteen

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Speaker 3: million of them without internet access in the home, nine

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Speaker 3: million without internet access or a device.

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Speaker 1: That's so important because just because you have a device

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean you have access. And I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you remember the days of trying to do dial up

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Speaker 1: and somebody is using the phone. Similarly, if you don't

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Speaker 1: have really high speed internet access, multiple people are multiple

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Speaker 1: devices trying to log on at the same time is

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Speaker 1: no good.

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Speaker 2: And then when you think about the impact that that

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Speaker 2: has on a student, these kids were being set back,

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Speaker 2: you know, in their education. So then what does that

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Speaker 2: mean At the end of the school year, are they

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Speaker 2: promoted to the next grade? And if so, are they

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Speaker 2: behind their friends that have had access to high speed

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Speaker 2: internet with no problems.

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Speaker 3: And now the impact is we lost so many kids.

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Speaker 3: I share the story about this fifteen year old girl

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Speaker 3: in Detroit, Michigan who did not log in.

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Speaker 4: Her case manager came and they put her.

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Speaker 3: In juvenile detention because she failed to lock into school.

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Speaker 4: It's a true story.

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Speaker 1: That is terrible.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's pretty it's sick. Yes, in the middle

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Speaker 2: of a pandemic.

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Speaker 1: And when we look at this type of stuff at

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Speaker 1: a bigger scale, not just you know, one off cases,

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Speaker 1: we find that the disparities in the Internet access are

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Speaker 1: having disproportionate effects in minoritized communities.

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Speaker 3: What we're seeing now with K through twelve students in

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Speaker 3: public schools, particularly black and Latino students and tribal students,

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Speaker 3: is that we're seeing that they're going to be two

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Speaker 3: to three years behind when it comes to learning proficiencies.

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Speaker 3: Some of those kids that couldn't get online, it was

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Speaker 3: because thirty five percent of those households were sharing one

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Speaker 3: device among multiple siblings. Some of those kids didn't get

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Speaker 3: online because their parents were serving us Wendy's and Burger

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Speaker 3: King and delivering our groceries to our doors. There was

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Speaker 3: no adult to make sure kids learning and so that

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Speaker 3: to me is like the most poignant moment of where

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Speaker 3: we failed a particular delivery of service that is imperative

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Speaker 3: to the future of this country. I don't think we're

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Speaker 3: actually going to see this generation's impact until like the

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Speaker 3: next two to three years, right when we're trying to

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Speaker 3: fill folks in positions where the math scores are lower.

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Speaker 3: So we can't break the stem divide. This is not

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Speaker 3: a digital divide of shiny objects and things. This is

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Speaker 3: a divide that is actually around the social mobility of

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Speaker 3: certain populations.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's bigger than who has the new iPad exactly

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Speaker 1: camera resolution? Right, I think people are not thinking about

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Speaker 1: what can you do with this device? What does this

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Speaker 1: mean for your portal to education access opportunity.

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Speaker 2: I mean you can do a little experiment, turn your

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Speaker 2: phone off for twenty four hours and see how hard

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Speaker 2: things get. You know, when you want to communicate with somebody,

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Speaker 2: If you needed to call a taxi, how are you

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Speaker 2: doing that? If you wanted to just get information, Everything

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Speaker 2: that you do is connected to the Internet, and so

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Speaker 2: when it's inequitable, you can see how it can have

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Speaker 2: a major impact on somebody's day to day life. We're

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Speaker 2: not talking about, oh I can't get on Instagram. We're

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Speaker 2: talking about can I get food? Will I know what's

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Speaker 2: going on around me? Anytime something major happens. We get

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Speaker 2: these alerts on our phones from you know whatever news

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Speaker 2: outlets that were subscribed to. You basically won't know anything

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Speaker 2: that's happening, even just down the street.

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Speaker 1: And this is something that's changed over time because when

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Speaker 1: we were in elementary school and middle school, internet access

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Speaker 1: wasn't a huge part of school. Like there were the computers.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to play May this Beacon, teach us typing.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to play Oregon Trail, but that was just supplemental,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Now, having a computer setup,

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Speaker 1: whether it's a laptop or a tablet, it's crucial. And

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Speaker 1: so even if you have a device, there's still so

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Speaker 1: much that goes into having that device connected, having internet access.

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Speaker 2: During the pandemic, communities came together to increase access for

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Speaker 2: those in need. Libraries, churches, small businesses, and emergency funding

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Speaker 2: allowed some schools to access hotspots. But even with hotspots,

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Speaker 2: there are still challenges, especially in rural communities.

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Speaker 3: The hotspots have to have internet access or some type

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Speaker 3: of robust network to work. And there are still pockets

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Speaker 3: digital deserts with that exist within rural communities where we're

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Speaker 3: not able to bring the type of hot speed connectivity

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Speaker 3: or broadband as we commonly define it. Listen, telecom company

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Speaker 3: is not common for you with high speed internet if

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Speaker 3: they've only served five hundred to three thousand residents, because

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Speaker 3: at the end of the day, the Internet was built

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Speaker 3: off of the very capitalist model. But with that being said,

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Speaker 3: I'm really proud that there were rural communities to try

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Speaker 3: to figure some of this stuff out. I remember talking

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Speaker 3: to a community in Texas where they actually deployed satellite

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Speaker 3: interfaces so that the kids could get online their school.

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Speaker 3: There were communities like in Roanoke, Virginia, which is very rural,

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Speaker 3: where they put the Wi Fi transmitters on top of

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Speaker 3: the construction signs.

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Speaker 4: But once you see on.

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Speaker 3: The highway that say Merge left, they actually pulled a

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Speaker 3: few of those construction signs and they were able to

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Speaker 3: put technology access up.

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Speaker 1: It's great that some communities were able to come up

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Speaker 1: with makeshift solutions to improve internet access. But doctor Turner

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Speaker 1: Lee shared that black and brown communities were often left

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Speaker 1: out of these local efforts. Doctor Turner Lee is now

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Speaker 1: working on a project to interview about twenty five hundred

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Speaker 1: residents of the Deep South about their internet access generally

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Speaker 1: and specifically during the pandemic.

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Speaker 3: Some of the early findings that we're getting is that

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Speaker 3: people in the rural South, the Black, Latino Indigenous South,

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Speaker 3: they went to hotels to get their access. And for me,

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Speaker 3: that's a problem because what it suggests is that we

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Speaker 3: have more work to do when it comes to deployment,

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Speaker 3: but we also have more work in urban areas.

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Speaker 4: We have over one million units of public.

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Speaker 3: Housing here in the United States where K through twelve

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Speaker 3: students lived, but yet we didn't have open Wi Fi

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Speaker 3: access in much of our federally assisted housing here in

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Speaker 3: the United States. So we had many missed opportunities to

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Speaker 3: do the type of work to accelerate broadband adoption.

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Speaker 4: And I think now we're still struggling through.

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Speaker 3: That, even though we've had a two year lesson on

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Speaker 3: the fact that we have disparate access among students and locations,

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Speaker 3: particularly among the most vulnerable.

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Speaker 2: Hearing about how the digital divide is having the most

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Speaker 2: impact on black and brown communities, Native communities and rural

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Speaker 2: places and public housing. It's really sad, but it's also

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Speaker 2: not surprising to see the intersection of systemic inequality and technology.

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Speaker 2: The people who need Internet access the most are the

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Speaker 2: ones facing the biggest barriers to access and are paying

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Speaker 2: the price exactly.

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Speaker 1: And people that are growing up in the age of

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Speaker 1: fiber don't understand that not all Internet is created equal. Baby.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember dial up? When you had the phone line.

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Speaker 2: To use the Internet, and when somebody would call, it

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Speaker 2: would knock you off the internet, or.

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Speaker 1: You could hear them talking the neighbors, sound and robotic

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Speaker 1: coming through the computer. Absolutely, and that Internet was so slow.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, everybody spoiled. Nowadays, you type something in

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Speaker 2: the Internet, you know, point zero zero, one second Google

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Speaker 2: tells you they got the results for you. Back then,

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Speaker 2: you had to sit back, have a snack, go to

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Speaker 2: the bathroom, and by the time you got back, maybe

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Speaker 2: half the page had loaded, you know.

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Speaker 1: But we were also using way too much HTML back then.

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Speaker 1: Slay movies behind your myspaceet.

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Speaker 2: Our black planet was it was lit. I had these

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Speaker 2: green flames. It was it was very good. I could

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Speaker 2: it all that myself. We were all little coders.

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Speaker 1: Man we shouldn't have given that up. But you know,

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Speaker 1: if you think that that kind of Internet is no

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Speaker 1: match for what we're doing these days, Like most people

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Speaker 1: don't even have landlines. Now, imagine if you had to

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Speaker 1: have a landline to get on the internet. I'm out,

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Speaker 1: I think too fuck.

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Speaker 2: And when doctor Nicole Turner Lee mentions broadbands, she's talking

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Speaker 2: about high speed internet that is always on. Not with

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Speaker 2: me as a kid. We're talking about from back in

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Speaker 2: the day. And the term broadband is an abbreviation for

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Speaker 2: broad bandwidth. And this type of connection uses multiple data

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Speaker 2: channels to transmit large amounts of information. And there are

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Speaker 2: a bunch of different types of broadband setups like cable, fiber, wireless, satellite.

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Speaker 1: All of those things. That's the kind of Internet we

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Speaker 1: need if we want everybody to be able to get

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Speaker 1: on and do all of the activities.

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Speaker 3: When you're not connected to the internet, you don't know

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Speaker 3: what's happening online. And as a result, and this has

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Speaker 3: been reserved ed, Uber may not come to your neighborhood

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Speaker 3: because the algorithm knows nothing about your community, and if

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Speaker 3: it does, there's not enough of you that actually use

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Speaker 3: this type of technology. For the algorithm to direct itself

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Speaker 3: to your neighborhood. It's a search arge for being disconnected.

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Speaker 3: You can't get no discounts, you can't get no home

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Speaker 3: shopping networks and delivery services.

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Speaker 4: You are off the.

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Speaker 1: Grid, and this provides a different context, you know, for

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Speaker 1: being off the grid. A lot of times people say, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be off the grid. That's my choice.

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Speaker 1: I want to keep things private, but not off the

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Speaker 1: grid to the extent that you don't have access to

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Speaker 1: the same services that could be convenient or helpful to

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Speaker 1: your life.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmmmm hm. Some people they'll be like, oh, I

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Speaker 2: don't have a smartphone because I like to be plugged

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Speaker 2: into what's going on around me. And I'm like, yes,

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Speaker 2: that is a privilege that you have to be able

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Speaker 2: to do that. That is a privilege because what you

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Speaker 2: all are also saying is that I can pick and

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Speaker 2: choose when I will plug myself back in. So when

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Speaker 2: you need to send an email, when you need to

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Speaker 2: book a flight, when you need to do very basic things,

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Speaker 2: you have that opportunity.

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Speaker 1: It's not that you have no choice, right. Doctor turner

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Speaker 1: Lie says technology is like a two sided coin. On

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Speaker 1: the one side, it helps us stay connected, and it's

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Speaker 1: been leveraged for activism, climate change, and artificial intelligence helped

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Speaker 1: with our COVID vaccine development. But she says there's also

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Speaker 1: another more sinister side.

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Speaker 3: Then there are those of us that go online. We

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Speaker 3: watch our movies, we buy our dresses, we look for really.

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Speaker 4: Cool hair for our braids. Hello, we do all that.

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Speaker 3: We get our packages at our door, our groceries delivered.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes we even find love online.

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Speaker 4: Well, guess what.

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Speaker 3: All that stuff that you're doing is connected to your

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Speaker 3: digital profile.

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Speaker 2: And we talked about this kind of data in Lavity

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Speaker 2: five Don't Get Hacked with Christina Morillo. The more a

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Speaker 2: company learns about your online behavior, the more there algorithm

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Speaker 2: can predict future behavior. And Taylor, they're marketing to fit

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Speaker 2: your profile for real. It seems like they know exactly

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Speaker 2: what you want when you want it, yes, and this

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Speaker 2: can lead to algorithm bias.

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Speaker 3: And this type of market stall balance has lent itself

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Speaker 3: to digital surveillance. And why that's important for people to

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Speaker 3: know is that we know that computers do not discriminate.

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Speaker 3: They just don't wake up as hardware and say hey,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to be racist today. The people who are

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Speaker 3: behind the programming and execution and evaluation of these technologies.

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Speaker 3: First and foremost lack the rich diversity of folks that

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Speaker 3: are part of the broader population of these United States

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Speaker 3: and our global world. We're not getting those models made

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Speaker 3: by us to reflect our lived experiences. But most importantly,

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Speaker 3: and my friend doctor Renee Cummings at the University of

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Speaker 3: Virginia says this, the data that these models are relying

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Speaker 3: on are traumatized because they come with a series of

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Speaker 3: baked in historical and systemic injustices. Things like the over

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Speaker 3: incarceration and the rest of black people get baked into

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Speaker 3: models that then make decisions on whether or not you

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Speaker 3: should be released or detained, or the use of mugshot

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Speaker 3: data for facial recognition technology, which denies our ability to

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Speaker 3: be seen not as criminals.

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Speaker 1: It's really a vicious cycle of the same old discrimination

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Speaker 1: being reproduced and reinforced in new technology. Now, the thing

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Speaker 1: we have heard about and probably experience is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: for people with darker skin, you're going to put your

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Speaker 1: hand under the sink to get the automatic water. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: it doesn't work. You got to show this side of

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Speaker 1: your hand, you know, But it doesn't stop. There multiple

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Speaker 1: studies have shown that there is a demographic gap Asian

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Speaker 1: African American Native American people are misidentified and given false

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Speaker 1: positive rates in these kind of monitoring studies all the time.

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Speaker 1: There was also a federal report that confirmed the same thing.

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Speaker 1: I feel like one hundred times more likely that's not

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Speaker 1: a Rounding era dog like that's.

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Speaker 2: You might as well just say it ain't happening, right.

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Speaker 1: It feels intentionally helpful.

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Speaker 2: It feels not good, not useful, right.

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Speaker 3: And that's what we have to be really careful in

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Speaker 3: terms of the evolution of these technologies and also what

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Speaker 3: we believe about what people say on these platforms. You know,

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Speaker 3: twenty sixteen, foreign operatives use technology to convince us not

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Speaker 3: to vote, the greatest form of voter suppression ever experienced.

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Speaker 3: But the problem we had nobody to tell and no

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Speaker 3: recourse because his technologies are pretty much unregulated.

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Speaker 2: This is such a good point that I feel like

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Speaker 2: it's so important to remember. It's like you're either digitally

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Speaker 2: invisible and paying attacks on one end, or you're hyper

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Speaker 2: visible and surveilled in paying attacks on the other.

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Speaker 4: You got it. Look, I ain't gonna lie.

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Speaker 3: I like it when I get marketed my black high

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Speaker 3: heel shoes, or when I get my little recommendation to

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Speaker 3: go check out my local consignment shop, but I don't

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Speaker 3: like it, as Latanya Sweeney at Harvard suggests, when they

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Speaker 3: can identify by my name La Kwan Lakeisha Jose that

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Speaker 3: I'm a person of color, and therefore I get higher

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Speaker 3: interest credit card offerings or more predatory services. That's the

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Speaker 3: type of trauma that these systems rely on, and that's

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Speaker 3: where it's so inescapable, you know. And what we find

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Speaker 3: is that this algorithmic amplification, half of us don't even

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Speaker 3: realize that this is happening to you because it's so

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Speaker 3: opaque as well.

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Speaker 1: Okay, very very true, very very real.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a break, and when we come back, we'll

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Speaker 2: talk more about what people are doing to make the

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Speaker 2: Internet a more accessible and equitable place.

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Speaker 1: We're back, and before we get into the episode, let's

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Speaker 1: talk about what's coming up next week. Next week we're

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Speaker 1: celebrating National Oyster Day and talking about oysters in aquaculture

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Speaker 1: with Bill Walton. You won't want to miss this one.

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Speaker 2: Let's get back to the lab. We've been talking to

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Speaker 2: doctor Nicole Turner Lee about the digital divide and algorithm

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Speaker 2: bias and how it can further disenfranchise marginalized communities.

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Speaker 1: So we've talked about algorithm bias in previous labs, but

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Speaker 1: the algorithm bias we were talking about then was the

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Speaker 1: ability to return objective information, like based on things you've

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Speaker 1: searched before, what Google or Duck Duck Go or whoever

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Speaker 1: sends back to you. But we're thinking about algorithm bias

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Speaker 1: and digital bias through a different lens today. We're considering

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Speaker 1: how the way you move on the internet, what people

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Speaker 1: know about your company's websites, how that affects your ability

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Speaker 1: to access different tools, how that affects your ability to

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Speaker 1: move through in the physical world based on digital accessibility. So,

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Speaker 1: now that we've identified some of these issues, gaps, disparities,

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Speaker 1: how do we address them? What's next? What's the policy

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Speaker 1: approach and what needs to happen.

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Speaker 4: I always tell people I think it's two tracks. One

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Speaker 4: is the technical track.

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Speaker 3: So we definitely need people who look like the lived

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Speaker 3: experiences of the subject, mirror those experiences, understand them, have

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Speaker 3: empathy for them, who know what it's like to be

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Speaker 3: a black woman who changes your hair, and then can

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Speaker 3: put that technical cadence into the creation of facial recognition

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Speaker 3: technology that we use to open our phones, because if

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Speaker 3: you're not in the right light, or you changed from

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Speaker 3: straight to brains or something like that. You know, we

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Speaker 3: need people who can come with those real, authentic understandings

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Speaker 3: of how we developed technology that's more inclusive, representative, and equitable.

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Speaker 1: Remember when your phone didn't want to unlock the other

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Speaker 1: day when you looked at.

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Speaker 2: It, Yep, it's because I changed my glasses. You know,

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Speaker 2: I've got like thirteen pairs of glasses. Changed my glasses,

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Speaker 2: said you're a stranger. Stranger danger, wouldn't open my phone,

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Speaker 2: and it happened again. There was one time where I think,

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Speaker 2: when I set up my facial recognition, I have my

442
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 2: natural hair out, and so I think it recognizes that.

443
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 2: So when I have braids or if I have any

444
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 2: type of anything different, it won't recognize me.

445
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: That's wild.

446
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 2: The second track is giving those who developed the technology

447
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 2: compliance frameworks.

448
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 3: What I mean by that, it's a wild West because

449
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 3: people feel that they can break previously litigated and.

450
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 4: Settled civil rights laws.

451
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 3: When Facebook decided that it was okay in the case

452
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 3: where they actually committed housing discrimination to check off the

453
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 3: boxes of people that they wanted to market to. That

454
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,159
Speaker 3: was a violation of the Fair Housing Act. You cannot

455
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,959
Speaker 3: check people off. You check people in, but you cannot

456
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 3: check them off. What we see when it comes to

457
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 3: algorithmic hiring where now we see companies using algorithms to

458
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 3: do pre screenings, and we're learning as researchers that that

459
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 3: forecloses on the ability of black and Latino applicants to

460
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 3: get past the pre screen stage because guess what, Well,

461
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 3: a computer who haven't developed it said, you have to

462
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 3: look them in the eye, and you're going to look

463
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 3: them in the eye enough times, you gotta smile a

464
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 3: little bit. You got to do these things that are

465
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 3: very European to actually get into the door. Well, guess what,

466
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 3: that's a violation when there's not transparency about that.

467
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: In May of this year, the EOC that's the United

468
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: States Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, released guidance on employer use

469
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: of algorithms and artificial intelligence and hiring processes.

470
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 3: The same thing with voice assistant technology. We're seeing legislation

471
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 3: when it comes to eighty eight compliance or being able

472
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:07,120
Speaker 3: to have the appropriate understanding of people's accents that actually

473
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 3: go into those technologies. So on the technical side and

474
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 3: the policy side. They really have to work hand in hand.

475
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: And this just takes us back to our lab on

476
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 2: linguistics with doctor Bah when we talked about linguistic profiling

477
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 2: and discrimination based on the way someone speaks.

478
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: And I get to hear this kind of discrimination in

479
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 1: technology about whose accent or whose way of speaking is

480
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,239
Speaker 1: recognized and is able to be translated because when you

481
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: all call us, we have a service that translates your

482
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,719
Speaker 1: voicemail into text so we can read it. And Baby,

483
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: my Southern folks, I can't tell what y'all are saying. Okay,

484
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: Google doesn't know. Now when I listen, I know exactly

485
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: what you're saying because you're speaking my language, but Google

486
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 1: translating is saying, no, ma'am, no sir, We have no clue.

487
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: Same thing for my voicemail.

488
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 2: Same thing, because you know, we do transcripts for each

489
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 2: episode so that the folks of the Death or Heart

490
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 2: Offare community can still be a part of the Dope

491
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 2: Labs community. When it's trying to transcribe the key and

492
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 2: I's voices, it doesn't know who's who, which I find

493
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: appalling because I am not from that level of South Okay.

494
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 1: You're welcome.

495
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 2: They're complimenting, and it doesn't know what we're saying. And

496
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 2: this is supposed to be really advanced technology. You're supposed

497
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 2: to just plug it in and it's supposed to just

498
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 2: trans exactly.

499
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 3: There's a place for policy and legislation to come in

500
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 3: and sort of prescribe different norms.

501
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 4: As you said, it's a wild West. But here's the problem.

502
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 3: We as a community have so many issues that what's

503
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 3: happened is these technologies intersect with voting rights, they intersect

504
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 3: with policing, they intersect with healthcare, they intersect with education,

505
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 3: and they intersect even with government benefits.

506
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 4: In the state of Florida, they.

507
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 3: Use facial recognition technology for the verification of unemployment benefits.

508
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 3: I just said, it don't work well on some folks.

509
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 3: So there are thousands of people waiting for the unemployment

510
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 3: while they're being evicted simply because they cannot be verified

511
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 3: by the public sector use of that technology. So we're

512
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 3: not just talking about technologies that are standalone. We're talking

513
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 3: about embedded systems of oppression that come with costs that

514
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 3: we really just have to pay attention to. Look, people

515
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,719
Speaker 3: can't be on Facebook lightly look at Bab, look at man,

516
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 3: look at Mab.

517
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 4: There's more to it.

518
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 3: Your photo is being great for something else, and something

519
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 3: else and something else. And by the time you get

520
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 3: to these economic and social opportunities, people know more about.

521
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 4: You and your distinct variables than ever before.

522
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 2: All these aspects of life that we're talking about are

523
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 2: so important to feeling like you can thrive in this world.

524
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 2: We ask doctor turnerly if she had any advice for

525
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 2: folks about how interact with the Internet in order to

526
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 2: protect themselves in their online presence, and how we can

527
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: overcome some of these biases that are completely out of

528
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: our control.

529
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 3: First and foremost, this is not the European Union or

530
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 3: other places where they have strict privacy legislation that provides

531
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 3: some federally uniformed values when it comes to what companies

532
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 3: can collect and not collect about you. You know, my

533
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 3: grandmother told me they ain't nothing in this world that's free.

534
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 4: Baby.

535
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 3: There's a trade off when we get these services to

536
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 3: a certain extent for free to get into the garden.

537
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 3: You know, it comes with our reciprocity of information. Your

538
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 3: ability to post a few photos on a social media

539
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 3: network or set a text message more and more we're

540
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 3: seeing just aggressive surveillance, both from the you know, policing

541
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 3: perspective as well as the community perspective and now the

542
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 3: private sector perspective. When it comes to that information.

543
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: My friend says this all the time. Say Zee, if

544
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 2: something is free.

545
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: You're the product.

546
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 2: Exactly you on the show You're money old?

547
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: Yes? Are you on discuntrapped to a styrofoam traye? Okay,

548
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: we're paying with our data.

549
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 3: The bottom line is people have to understand that these

550
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 3: inequalities exist and that you're not giving away your data

551
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 3: for free.

552
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest.

553
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 4: I have a fifteen year old.

554
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 3: I don't know half of the stuff that she's on

555
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 3: because I'm not up on discord and all these other

556
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 3: things that she'd be doing. I'm like, what are you doing?

557
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,719
Speaker 3: I don't know, But guess what, I need to educate

558
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,479
Speaker 3: myself on those things because when she shows up mything

559
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 3: or she's involved in an inappropriate conversation, I got to

560
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 3: know what that conversation is. So parents, we got to

561
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 3: step up our game. Okay, we have to get on

562
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 3: the ball about how these technologies work.

563
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 2: There's a lot of new technologies and internet services popping

564
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 2: up all the time. Remember a few years ago before

565
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 2: TikTok blew up.

566
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: I barely remember before TikTok. It feels like it's always around.

567
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: BT is gonna be the new thing.

568
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 2: Before TikTok and after TikTok things move fast. But it's

569
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 2: still important to stay educated on how these companies are

570
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 2: mining and using your data. Don't just accept all the

571
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 2: cookies when you get to a new website, because your

572
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 2: digital profile stays with you.

573
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: And that's wild to think we're just accumulating all these

574
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: I imagine. I know they're not chocolate chip cookies, but

575
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: just imagine a long sail of every cookie you've ever accepted,

576
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: just following you around as you browse on the internet.

577
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: You know, the way I'm burning through sites, Okay, the

578
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: way I'm typing in www dot into my browser. What

579
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: does that mean for the future?

580
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 3: You know?

581
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: How will I be able to maintain any shred of privacy?

582
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: We asked doctor Turnerley what her vision for the digital

583
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: future looks like and what she's excited about.

584
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 4: We need to.

585
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 3: Move people from just being consumers of the technology. The

586
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 3: greatest breakthrough of innovation has been the ability of people

587
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 3: with a great ideas and not necessarily degrees to create

588
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 3: new ideas that can run off of internet networks. There

589
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 3: is a stage of technology that has lowered the barrier

590
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 3: so that you don't have to just be in Silicon Valley.

591
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 3: You can be in Silicon Alley getting stuff done. You

592
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 3: could be in Silicon Harlem. These are the creators of

593
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 3: the twenty first century, and a lot of those people

594
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 3: look like us. And so I would just say to

595
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 3: people who are listening, don't be afraid of the technology.

596
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 4: The train has left the station.

597
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 3: Embrace it, but don't be just consumers of it. Be

598
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 3: folks that can look at that technology and take that

599
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,239
Speaker 3: idea you sat on for twenty thirty forty years and

600
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 3: make it happen because you could do it with an

601
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 3: Internet connection, some broadband web at home, and a hotel

602
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 3: at your school stoop. And that's what I think is

603
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 3: so wonderful, because I know if we write the right

604
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 3: script around this, we'll get more people on the production

605
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 3: side than on the consumption side.

606
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: That's such an important point as we think about access

607
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: to technology and the type of financial mobility and social

608
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: mobility that leveraging these networks provides. If you don't have

609
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: access to the network. You don't even know how to

610
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: move around on it. It's going to be very hard

611
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: to think of ways to create new systems and the

612
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: next wave of technology. And so not only are they

613
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: missing out on being consumers, it increases the barrier to

614
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: being a producer in the future.

615
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 3: We have to understand that the technology has come and

616
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 3: it's here to stay. We want everybody in this country

617
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 3: to have first class digital citizenship. That means we have

618
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 3: to demand digital justice. Means that we have to have

619
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 3: equitable deployment. It means that we have to have the devices.

620
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 3: This is a civil right, all right, y'all.

621
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 2: It's tign for one thing.

622
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: What's our one thing this week? Tt our one.

623
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 2: Thing this week? We have a joint one thing. It

624
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: is doctoring a cold turner Lee's book. It's called Digitally Invisible.

625
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 2: So head over to her website. The link is in

626
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 2: the show notes to find out where you can get it.

627
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,399
Speaker 1: Okay, that's it for Lab seventy two. What is your think?

628
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: Did this lab help you realize that it's deeper than

629
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: just access to social media? Call us at two zero

630
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: two five, six seven seven zero two eight and tell

631
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 1: us what you thought or give us an idea for

632
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: a lab you think we should do this semester. That's

633
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: two zero two five six seven seven zero.

634
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 2: Two eight, And don't forget that there is so much

635
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 2: more to dig into on our website. There'll be a

636
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 2: cheap keep for today's lab, additional links and resources in

637
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: the show notes. Plus you can sign up for our newsletter.

638
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 2: Check it out at Dope Labs Podcast special thanks to

639
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 2: today's guest expert, doctor Nicole Turner Lee.

640
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: You can find her on Twitter at Dr Turner Lee

641
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: and learn more about her work at www dot d

642
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,959
Speaker 1: r n I c O. L Speaks dot com. That's

643
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: doctor Nicole Speaks dot com.

644
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 2: And you can find us on Twitter and Instagram at

645
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 2: Dope Blab Podcast.

646
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 1: TT's on Twitter and Instagram at dr Underscore T s.

647
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 2: H O and you can find Zakiya at z said So.

648
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 2: Dope Labs is a Spotify original production from Mega Ownmedia Group.

649
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: Our producers are Jenny Radlimask and Lydia Smith of Wave

650
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: Runner Studios.

651
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 2: Editing and sound design by Rob Smerciak.

652
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: Mixing by Hannes Brown.

653
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,240
Speaker 2: Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex

654
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: Sugier from Spotify. Creative producers Miguel Contreras and Grace Delia.

655
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Shirley Ramos, Jess Borison, yasmine A Fifi, Kamu, Elolia,

656
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 2: Till krat Key and Brian Marquis, Executive producers from Mega

657
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 2: Own Media Group, all Right T T Show, Dia and

658
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 2: Zekiah Wattley