1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to here's the 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:12,120 Speaker 1: thing from my heart radio. Global warming, Donald Trump's presidency 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: and the COVID pandemic. Add to that list of things 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: that were unlikely and that we were unprepared for the 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: overturning of Roe v. Wade. Turn on the television or 6 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 1: check social media today and you'll hear an abundance of 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: outrage over the perceived betrayal of our current Supreme Court 8 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: Justices Alito, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett all professed to respect 9 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: the president of Roe v. Wade during their confirmation hearings, 10 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: and yet we are on the cusp of the Supreme 11 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: Court overturning the nineteen seventy three landmark case that found 12 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: abortion to be a constitutional rights. My guests today are 13 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: in the trenches on this issue. Annarupani is the executive 14 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: direct of Fund Texas Choice. Her organization helps Texans access 15 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: abortions out of state following the passage of SP eight, 16 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: which banned abortion after the detection of a fetal heartbeat 17 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: at around six weeks. But first, I'm talking to one 18 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: of the world's leading authorities on the legal history of 19 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: the abortion debate. Mary Ziegler is a professor at Florida 20 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: State University College of Law, a visiting professor at Harvard 21 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: Law School, and as a frequent guest on CNN, ABC News, 22 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: and NPR. She's also written opinion pieces for The New 23 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: York Times The Atlantic, as well as four books on 24 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: abortion law in America. Considering her extensive background and exhaustive 25 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: research on the subject, I wanted to know if Mary 26 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: Ziegler was surprised to learn the likely fate of Roe v. Wade. 27 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: I think when Trump was elected, I thought this was 28 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: going to happen. But I still find myself being some 29 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: rise by I guess how it's happening by there's a 30 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: sort of um. I don't know that the if cruelty 31 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: is the right word, or indifference, but just the people 32 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: on the court don't seem to think this is even 33 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: a big deal. And I think that's surprising me. I mean, 34 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 1: the fact that it's happening doesn't surprise me as someone 35 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: who studied this, because I think for the past fifty 36 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: years there's been a really concerted movement to do it. 37 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 1: The movement required lots of luck. Right, So if Hillary 38 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 1: Clinton is elected in twenty six or Ruth pader Ginsburg 39 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: dies a year later or retires several years earlier. We're 40 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 1: not where we are now, But there have been plans, 41 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: you know, very sophisticated plans of foot for a long 42 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: time that make this less than surprising. But I guess 43 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: I still find myself feeling surprised emotionally, even if kind 44 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: of rationally I knew this was coming. I'm assuming with 45 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 1: the work you do, you watch these confirmation hearings carefully 46 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: correct they did. Yeah, And did you feel that they 47 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: were lying at the time that they were testifying. Did 48 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: you feel that it was like a trojan horse thing 49 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: where they were going to say whatever it took to 50 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: get on the court. It's like a game they were playing. 51 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: They were going to it better than everybody else. I mean, 52 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: I think unfortunately Supreme Court confirmations like no one answers questions, 53 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: So I mean, there was nothing particularly revolutionary about the 54 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: fact that they weren't answering questions. No one does. I 55 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 1: was more surprised by politicians like Susan Collins who seemed 56 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: to believe that that was not what was going on. 57 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: I mean, everybody knows the game and the rules of 58 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: the game, which is that people don't answer questions. Antonin 59 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: Scalia said a bunch of similar things about Row and 60 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: then voted to overturn Row in the first case he 61 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:28,959 Speaker 1: heard on the court, which is what amy Cony Barrett 62 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: is going to do. So it's not as if we 63 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: haven't seen this movie before. I don't know if it 64 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: was wishful thinking or just naive tay or dishonesty on 65 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: the part of those politicians, but the nominees, for better worse, 66 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: I think it's like a process defect. In other words, 67 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: it's not just that these are people who are liars. 68 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: The process is that you go and say a bunch 69 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: of vague things that could be reassuring to people who 70 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: want to hear them, and you don't really answer any questions, 71 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: and then you get confirmed, and everyone knows what you're 72 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: going to do when you get confirmed because of who 73 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: you are and the reasons that you were nominated, and 74 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: that that's been how it is, unfortunately since probably at 75 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: least two thousand eight. One of the things about this issue, 76 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: which is always of concern to me, is that if 77 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: you focus on the viability issue, when we say that 78 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: it's not a life until a certain point what the 79 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: role has been or may have been of the American 80 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: Medical Association and helping to define this debate, which is, 81 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 1: if if the pro life people are correct, then the 82 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: American Medical Association as a body is standing by watching 83 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: while all these people are killed that are life conception 84 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,119 Speaker 1: m Well, the American Medical Association in the early years 85 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 1: was absolutely crucial. So if you're trying to sort of 86 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: imagine where did the idea of criminalizing abortionately came from, 87 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,799 Speaker 1: it came from the American Medical Associations, and that came 88 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: from a variety of desires. There were people in the 89 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: early anti abortion movement in the American Medical Association who 90 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: believed that life began at conception. There were people who 91 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: wanted a competitive edge over midwives and other alternate at 92 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: medical practitioners. And there were people who were doing this 93 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: for sort of nativist eugenic reasons right, who believed that 94 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: women from and other people who could get pregnant from 95 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: places like Ireland and Germany immigrants were having too many babies, 96 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: and people from Anglo Saxon countries were not having enough babies, 97 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: and that abortion was the reason right, that wealthy people 98 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: were having abortions, and so if you had no more abortions, 99 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: the quote unquote genetic stock of the United States would 100 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 1: be better. Um, And so all of that sort of 101 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 1: went into this mix. But the A m A for 102 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: a long time was the sort of authority for the 103 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: idea that abortion should be illegal. If you fast forward 104 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies, even the nineteen sixties, doctors and 105 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 1: the American Medical Association were baby movers in the campaign 106 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: to legalize abortion. And then for a long time, I 107 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: think in the years in between, the American Medical Association 108 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: was largely on the sidelines right, sort of didn't really 109 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: take a position one way or another about abortion. And 110 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: now we've come full circle where you see the American 111 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: Medical Association again beginning to take a position. But I 112 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: mean that that sort of feels as if it's I mean, 113 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: not too little, too late, exactly, but but it's waited 114 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: a good long time until we ought to a point 115 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: where things are changing pretty rapidly. Before the organization renewed 116 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 1: its involvement in this issue. And what's their recent renewed involvement. Um, 117 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: they've been getting involved in particular with laws that are 118 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: just scientifically wrong. So, for example, some states have had 119 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: laws saying you need to hear information that medication and 120 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: worships can be reversed, and there's no reason to think 121 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: that that's true or that it's safe for people to 122 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: try to take the drug regime that conservatives in these 123 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: states have recommended, and the a m A Has been 124 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: involved in lawsuits essentially saying we as doctors, think this 125 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 1: violate it's our First Amendment rights to be forced to 126 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: say things that are not true that are going to 127 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: endanger our patients. I believe that this law now will 128 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: because of the narrowing of the time allowed, it is 129 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: going to push for more abortions. I think people when 130 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: you give them a shorter time to think about it. 131 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: If you discover if the average woman discovers she's pregnant 132 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: so many weeks into the term, and it's three or 133 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: four weeks before you even find that, what if you 134 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: miss a period, all those things that in terms of 135 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: women's bodies, and let's say you find out you're pregnant 136 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: and you've only got two weeks left to decide. I 137 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: think an increasing number people are gonna go, I'm gonna 138 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: have an abortion. They're not going to have time to 139 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: really consider it. As much as they want to. Do 140 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: you agree that there's going to increase, Yeah, totally. There's 141 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: some evidence that that's already happening in speed where Texas 142 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: has functionally banned abortion, that there are more people having 143 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: early abortions in the way you describe, and there are 144 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: some people who are actually reporting to abortion clinics that 145 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: they're not sure they made the right decision because they 146 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: feel that it's sort of now or never. And I 147 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: think that in a world where overweight is gone, we're 148 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: going to see a lot of states just straight up 149 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: criminalizing all abortions, which is going to make people desperate 150 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: to get to other states, and that feeling of sort 151 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: of it's now or never is going to be intensified. 152 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: And it's also worth saying we know that in countries 153 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: where abortion is criminal across the word, the abortion rate 154 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: doesn't go down. For example, in places like Ecuador and Kenya, 155 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: where most are all abortions are criminal, the abortion rate 156 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: is much higher than it is in the United States. 157 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: So the reasons people have abortions have more to do 158 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: with whether they feel in their lives that they're able 159 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: to have the children they want and raise those children 160 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: in a healthy way. And it has almost not much 161 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: to do with criminal laws. Like people will will often 162 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: try to find a way if they think that it's 163 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: the right decision for them to have an aborshion, they'll 164 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: often try to find a way to do it anyway, 165 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: and sometimes theyll face criminal consequences for doing that. I 166 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: was told that the United States is going in the 167 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,599 Speaker 1: opposite direction of other countries like Ireland, where they're relaxing 168 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 1: their national abortion laws. That's correct, That is correct. Yeah, 169 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: And it's not just Ireland. It's Mexico, it's Columbia, it's Thailand, 170 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: it's South Korea. It's really across a variety of continents. 171 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: And so you often hear people say the US is 172 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: an outlier because it allows abortion relatively late into pregnancy. 173 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: That's true, and part because the United States doesn't have 174 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: health insurance for people who want to have abortion early 175 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: in pregnancy. But if the US is going to um criminalize, 176 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: allow states to criminalize abortion, there are other countries doing 177 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: that too. They're a handful of them, like Poland, but 178 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: they tend to be places that are increasingly illiberal, and 179 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: a lot of other countries have been moving in the 180 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: other directions. So the US will be an outlier again 181 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: just in or I think in somewhat and more meaningful way, 182 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: I feel like this is all part of this march 183 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: towards this like super right wing agenda taking over so 184 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: many areas of the country, critical race theory. Don't say 185 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: gay in Florida. And now you add this to the mix. 186 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: Do you see it that way? Do you see that 187 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: abortion is linked to a bunch of other things that 188 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: this extreme right wing agenda wants to cultivate. Yeah? Absolutely, 189 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: I mean I think that there's some direct connections. So, 190 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: for example, there's obviously a connection between abortion and birth 191 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: control because many abortion opponents define common contraceptives as abortion right. 192 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,599 Speaker 1: So you may remember during the debate about the contraceptive 193 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 1: mandate of the Affordable Care Act that people described drugs 194 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: like Morning after Pill and i E. D s as 195 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 1: abortion inducing drugs. There's a legal connection between overruling Row 196 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: and overruling cases on things like same sex marriage, because 197 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: the legal foundation is the same. And there are political 198 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: connections because quite clearly, the effort to transform the Supreme 199 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: Court to create a court that is not responsive to 200 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 1: popular opinion in any way, shape or form, was done 201 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: in large part to secure a decision overruling Row. Really, 202 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 1: the effort to have an unlimited amount of dark money 203 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: and politics was connected to view. The book I have 204 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: coming out in June is about that. It's about the 205 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: fact that there are people in the anti abortion movement 206 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 1: who led the litigation of Citizens United and are now 207 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: leading litigation to allow for more anonymous big donations and politics. Um. 208 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: And that was because I think the was an awareness 209 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: that a lot of big donors in blue areas. Right 210 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,439 Speaker 1: conservatives living in blue states did not want to sign 211 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: their name to donations for things that would undercut policies 212 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: people favored, so they wanted anonymity, and abortion opponents were 213 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: the first people recognize that because they had that experience 214 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: with donors. So a lot of this is connected even 215 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: voting rights. The gentleman who's the attorney for True to Vote, 216 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 1: one of the groups that was trying to overturn the election, 217 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: who's been the attorney for Marjorie Taylor Green and other 218 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: members of Congress whom accused of leading an insurrection, was 219 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: is again that the General Council of the National Right 220 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: to Life Committee and the guy who led the litigation 221 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 1: of Citizens United right and that's because from the standpoint 222 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: of people who are opposed to abortion, you know, banning 223 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: abortion is more important than all of these other things. 224 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: It's a human rights issue. It comes before any fidelity 225 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: you have to any kind of other principle in the democracy. 226 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 1: And so it's all connected in ways that I think 227 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,319 Speaker 1: are pretty transport parent and easy to document. I mean, 228 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: for me, for practical purpose, is because I feel like 229 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: the pro choice people, many of them, ade all of them, 230 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: seem to be playing this game with one hand get 231 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: tied behind their back. And is there anything wrong in 232 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 1: your mind with the president of the United States who 233 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: goes to Ginsburg when she was alive and says, you 234 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: really need to retire. Why don't we cut the bullshit 235 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: and just say that both sides have their opinions as 236 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: there is there anything wrong with Obama Sacer it's time no. 237 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,479 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a fancy term lawyers and law professors 238 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: used for this, which is asymmetric polarization, meaning there's been polarization, 239 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: but one side has been doing it more than the 240 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: other side, and the gloves have already come off for conservatives. 241 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: Progressives are sort of catching up to this that sometimes 242 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: being the kind of moral authority, being above it all 243 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: party when it comes to the Supreme Court lands you 244 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: in this position right where you're just waiting several weeks 245 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: to watch the cord over worlde wade without feeling like 246 00:12:53,640 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: there's anything you can do about it in the short term. 247 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: Legal historian Mary Ziegler. If you enjoy conversations about hot 248 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: button political topics, check out my episode with former California 249 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: assemblywoman and labor advocate Lorrena Gonzalez. Income inequality has become 250 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: a real threat. So as we continue to build billionaires 251 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: in California, in Silicon Valley continues to create new billionaires, 252 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: we've got to figure out how we take care of 253 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: people who just work for a living, right, the people 254 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: who service the tourism industry, the people who serve people 255 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: fast food. You have folks who are on their feet, 256 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: working forty sixty hours a week, multiple jobs, especially in 257 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 1: immigrant communities like mine, and and the fact that they 258 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: cannot afford housing or to put a little money away 259 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: from retirement or to send their kid to college is 260 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: is something we've got to address. To hear more of 261 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: my conversation with Lorena Gonzalez, go to here's the thing 262 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: dot Org. After the break, Mary Ziegler speculates on the 263 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: implications of overt arning Roe v. Wade, including the potential 264 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: consequences of crossing state lines for abortion care. I'm Alec Baldwin, 265 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Mary Ziegler is 266 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: a legal historian, professor of law, and leading expert on 267 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: the history of Roe v. Wade. After fifty years of 268 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: conflict between the pro life and pro choice communities, I 269 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: wanted to know what Ziegler thinks the future holds for 270 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: abortion rights in America. I think in the short term 271 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: it's pretty obvious that the court is going to overrule Row, 272 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: but I think it's worth emphasizing that that is not 273 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: going to be where the story ends. I like to 274 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: tell this story because I think it's really revealing. Um, 275 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: Harry Blackman had, the author of Roe v. Wade, had 276 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: a news clipping in file that said, you know, seventy 277 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: something percent of Americans think that the abortion decision should 278 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: be between a woman and her doctor, right, and their 279 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: little notes were pretty clearly black And was thinking, like, 280 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: we've got this thing right, Like we're going to decide 281 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: this case. We're doing it in exactly the way most 282 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: Americans want us to. You know, it's going to be settled, right, 283 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: and we all know how that turned out. Right Here 284 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: we are fifty years later, still talking about this, and 285 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: so I think if this Supreme Court thinks that it's 286 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: going to just settle this and Americans are just gonna 287 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: go home and forget about it, they're equally wrong. So 288 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: I think what will happen in the short term will 289 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: be a pretty intense state by state conflict. There will 290 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: be battles within states like Florida and Michigan to see 291 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: how far they're going to go in criminalizing abortion. They'll 292 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: be battles and red states like Alabama about whether they're 293 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: going to ban contraception or treatment for infertility. There will 294 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: be national battles in terms of who controls Congress in 295 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: the White House about whether there's going to be protections 296 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: for bands of abortion. And they're gonna be interstate conflicts 297 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: because we've already seen blue states like California and Connecticut 298 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: saying either one, we're going to help you pay for 299 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: an abortion if you want to travel from out of state, 300 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: or two, we're going to shield our doctors and our 301 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: nurses from legal consequences if they perform abortions on people 302 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: from other states. And you've begun to see red states 303 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: say actually, we're going to prosecute you, the doctor or 304 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: the abortion fund if you help someone from our state 305 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: who comes to your state. So there's gonna be a 306 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: whole round of conflicts about whose law flies in those settings, 307 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: who gets to decide that is it unconstitutional to tell 308 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: people they can't travel to get at abortion like a 309 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: lot of So the idea is also going to just 310 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: get messier from here. So you think that's a possibility 311 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: that some states could make it illegal for the residents 312 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: of their states to go to another state and have 313 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: an abortion, they are probably going to try. I mean, 314 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: we've seen Missouri kind of float this proposal. Whether they 315 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: can legally do that, right, I have no idea because 316 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: when was the last time you even heard of a 317 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: state doing that. I mean, they wouldn't make it illegal 318 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: to travel. What they would do is say you can 319 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: travel as much as you want, but when you get home, 320 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: we're going to put you in jail. Right because they 321 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: can't tell you not to do the travel. That's clearly 322 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: unconstitutional because there is a right to travel and the 323 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,239 Speaker 1: right to travel is one of the most like, it 324 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 1: has one of the best pedigrees in constitutional law. It's 325 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: more like, if you say we can criminalize the reason 326 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 1: for the travel right, maybe the Supreme Court would sign 327 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: off on that. And the reason we don't know is 328 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: because the Supreme Court has decided a grand total of 329 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: one case about the right to travel in nineties something 330 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: and has never you know, so who knows what they 331 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: would do with that, other than you could just make 332 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: the educated guests that these folks are extremely conservative and 333 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: that probably they'll just side with the conservative state. But 334 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: you know, that's about all we know. We don't have 335 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: a lot of specific guidance. So how do we explain 336 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: to people legally that you can't force people to get 337 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: vaccinated when you can force them to carry a baby 338 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: to term. Yeah, I don't know if there's a good 339 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: legal explanation to that. I think the Court's explanation in 340 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: this draft is that abortion is different because it's a 341 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: taking of a life, and that that's not true of 342 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: a vac scene. Obviously, pregnancy is different from vaccine and 343 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: lots of other ways, in the sense that if you 344 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: say you take a COVID vaccine, and you have a 345 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 1: really bad reaction, like maybe that lasts for a couple 346 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: of days. Um, if you've ever been pregnant, you can 347 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,199 Speaker 1: have some negative consequences that last for more than a 348 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: couple of days. You could die, for example. But the 349 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: court doesn't seem plugged into that. I think there's probably 350 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: more the political point, which is that the people who 351 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 1: are on the Supreme Court now are not just conservative, 352 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: they're sort of siloed from people who are not conservative. 353 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: They are clearly not having conversations with people who have 354 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: had abortions, They're clearly not having conversations with people who 355 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: are pro choice. And so this feels sort of like 356 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: an opinion written by people who really genuinely don't get 357 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: it right, who are so isolated and so plugged in 358 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: only to their own legal communities that they don't even 359 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: understand that what they're doing is going to upset people. 360 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 1: I mean, that's how this reads to me. I want 361 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,479 Speaker 1: to get back to when you said about other things 362 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: that this might embolden once Roe v. Wade is struck down. 363 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: I've never been a big fan of court packing per se, 364 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: but I wonder if when you realize that there's a 365 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: good chance we could quantify that a minority of people 366 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: in this country want word v way to end. And 367 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: this is all the very highly skilled gamesmanship of these 368 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: right wingers. Do you think that court packing is an 369 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: option and it's right. I think it's an option. I 370 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: think it's not a great idea, only in so far 371 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: as I don't see where it stops. I think I've 372 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 1: been more a proponent of term limits because I think 373 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,239 Speaker 1: it's disturbing that someone who's been on the court, I mean, 374 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas has been on the Court since nineteen ninety one, right, 375 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 1: and if you think about when the Anita Hill incident 376 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: went down, our norms around a whole bunch of stuff 377 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: have changed since in ninety one, and that you could 378 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: have someone who's views maybe reflect what voters wanted in 379 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: probably not even because there was probably not what a 380 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 1: majority of voters wanted even then. That's weird to me 381 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 1: because the Court is a political animal. But that's set 382 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: with court packing. I think then just whoever's in power 383 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,239 Speaker 1: will just add more justices to the Court, and then 384 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: the Court will look more like the Senate, which may 385 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: be won't be that different in terms of outcomes, given 386 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: how the Court is behaving now, there may not really 387 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: be that much daylight between how political this court is 388 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: and how political that court would be. But I also 389 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,959 Speaker 1: don't think it would really add any value to have 390 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 1: court packing. So with the writhing where we've arrived now 391 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: with this court, do you feel that this issue in 392 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: terms of abortion is better decided ultimately by the Congress 393 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: or by the Court? I mean probably by Congress, although 394 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: I think that that would be a political football. There 395 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: seems to be an emerging international human rights consensus that 396 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: some forms of abortion bands violate international human rights, not all, 397 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: but some. It would be great if the US was 398 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 1: subscribed to international human rights treaties. We don't, but that's 399 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: I think another potential guide. But I think that obviously 400 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 1: you see with this court that the Court can be 401 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 1: a profoundly anti democratic institution in ways that are problematic. 402 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: My other inclination, having seen what happened in Ireland, would 403 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: be that it would be better to have this not 404 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: decided by Congress or the Court, bit directly by from 405 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: some sort of plebiscite for the people, because I think 406 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 1: what politicians are likely to give you is not likely 407 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: to reflect what Americans want there's been a disconnect between 408 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: polling and policy on abortion since the seventies, and so 409 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: I think it would be nice to give people, as 410 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: was the case in Ireland, just go directly to people 411 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: and say what do you think it should look like? 412 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: Like here are some options, you know, do you want 413 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: to ban at like fourteen weeks with exceptions afterwards? I 414 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: think you would end up with something probably more stable 415 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: than what we get from politicians or judges. What part 416 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 1: of this do you think the pro choice community got 417 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: wrong in terms of their messaging? What did they get wrong? 418 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: I think part of it was that the pro choice 419 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,959 Speaker 1: communities prioritized messaging and strategies that help people they know, 420 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: which tends to be for people who are privileged, like 421 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: white people who don't really need abortion very much. And 422 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: that's had the effect of making it less comfortable for 423 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: people of color to be pro choice or be active 424 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 1: in the movement because they feel that people who are 425 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: running the pro choice movement don't get it right. They 426 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: don't get it they don't care about themselves and the 427 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 1: plant parenthood right and they and they also don't see 428 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: plan parent in talking about all their issues. There's a 429 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: famous incident in when Mississippi was going to ban abortion 430 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: and also was doing a voter ide law that was 431 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: going to make it hard for some people of color 432 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: to vote, and there were activists of color in Mississippi 433 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: begging Plan Parenthood to campaign on the voting rights issue too, 434 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: and they just wouldn't do it because they said, it's 435 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: not our issue. Our issue is abortion. There are a 436 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 1: lot of missed opportunities I think like that. I think 437 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: there were things that were done wrong in terms of 438 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 1: underestimating conservatives. Like often when people would interview me historically, 439 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 1: the press would say there's always what of progressives done wrong? 440 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 1: And it was never what of conservatives done right? Because 441 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: conservatives have been really smart and savvy about this for 442 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: fifty years, and the general attitude I think progressives have 443 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: had as conservatives are kind of like a little defcye, 444 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: not super sharp, and you know, if we just got 445 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: our stuff together, this would be no problem. And that's 446 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: not clear that that's true. There are a lot of 447 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 1: very sophisticated strategists on the right who've done a lot of, 448 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: you know, things that progressive strategically could learn from. And 449 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,959 Speaker 1: then there are things I think specific blind spots progressives 450 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,199 Speaker 1: have had Progressives tend to gravitate to glamour races like 451 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: senate races, presidential races, gubinatorial races, and conservatives have been 452 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: down there in the muck focusing on things like racist 453 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: for sheriff races, for school board races, for prosecutor attorney general, 454 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,199 Speaker 1: state legislative races, and have then had these laboratories for 455 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: policies in the states where they pretty much can have 456 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: untrammeled access to really out their policies with no political consequences. 457 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: Progressives have been really outcompeted that way, and I think 458 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: progressives have been out competed in how they deal with 459 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: the courts, because if you look at how you know, 460 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: democrat at presidents approached the courts, it feels very much 461 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: like things have not changed since Ruth Bader Ginsberg was 462 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: nominated in the nineties, and if you look at how 463 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: Republicans approached Supreme Court nominations, it's a completely different story. 464 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: And so I think there needs to be kind of 465 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,239 Speaker 1: an updating of strategy around the federal courts. And at 466 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: least I think Biden has done a good job of 467 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: putting a lot of people on the courts right like 468 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: getting the nominations through Congress, but you still don't see 469 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: I think. I think progressives have historically not cared as 470 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: much about the court or gotten people to care about 471 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: the Court in the same way conservatives of Well, I 472 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: would imagine that until things move on, if they ever 473 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 1: due to the federal level, where you, as you said, 474 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: we you have the control of both houses of Congress 475 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: in the White House, god forbid, I would assume that 476 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: before we get to that point, have things changed dramatically 477 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: in that we're going to see a stampede of abortions, 478 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 1: people seeking a board persons until it's made illegal in 479 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: your home state for you to travel to another stay 480 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 1: to be discussed. And then next to that, I predict 481 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: we're going to see a dramatic drop in the birth 482 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: rate in this country as people have a terrible feeling 483 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: about getting pregnant and being forced to make a choice 484 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 1: that could involve some criminality on their part. Yeah, I mean, 485 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: I think that's that's definitely realistic. I think if people 486 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: feel rushed into making decisions, I think, as we said before, 487 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 1: they sometimes make the decision to end of pregnancy because 488 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: it's it's a weighty decision to be a parent, right. 489 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 1: And the other thing that's probably worth emphasizing is like, 490 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: who is it that disproportionately has abortions? So I mean 491 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: a majority of people in absolute terms who have abortions 492 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: are white, but the abortion rate is much higher in 493 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: communities of color than it is in the white community. 494 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: And you might ask yourself, well, why is that, And 495 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,919 Speaker 1: it's because those are people who probably are not feeling 496 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: good about how those children are going to live in 497 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: the world, right, because of poverty, because of racism, because 498 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: they don't have opportunities they want to have for themselves 499 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: and for the children they already have. You know, the 500 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 1: average woman who has an abortion has a child or 501 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: more than one, and so I think it's quite likely 502 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: that people in that position who are already feeling that 503 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: the world is not going to make it easy for 504 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: them to raise a child in the way they want, 505 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: are going to feel that way even more when on 506 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: the other side of the equation is potentially prison time. Right. 507 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: And it's realistic too that if you're thinking about, well, 508 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 1: how are you going to get caught having an abortion? 509 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: There are a couple of different ways. One is, you know, 510 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: you're in a community that gets heavily policed. Right, It's like, 511 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: how do you get caught using marijuana because the police 512 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: are checking out there doing all the time. Right. The 513 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: other way is that you wait too long to have 514 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: the abortion. And because the later in pregnancy you have 515 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: an abortion, the more complications there are, and that again 516 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: is going to push you toward having the early abortion 517 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: because it's going to be less likely you're gonna get caught, 518 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 1: it's gonna be less likely you're gonna have criminal consequences, 519 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: and so people who may have thought about carrying a 520 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: pregnancy to term are probably going to feel that it's 521 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 1: safer to get into the pregnancy on the earlier side. 522 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 1: There are women on the Supreme Court, and I was 523 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: wondering which one do you think has been the greatest 524 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: and spokesperson on behalf of reproductive rights for women on 525 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: the courts and the group that's there now, it's definitely 526 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,959 Speaker 1: Sonya Sodomyer has been the most outspoken. I mean, Elena 527 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: Kagan sort of m O. I think is more to 528 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: be a kind of behind the scenes dealmaker. She's a 529 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: really powerful writer, though, and so I would kind of 530 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: expect that to change if Row is overturned because The 531 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: dynamic between those two is that sodomyor Is is sort 532 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: of like the conscience of the liberals, who sort of 533 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 1: says what everybody thinks, regardless of how that makes her 534 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: colleagues feel. And Kagan only does that, I think, after 535 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: exhausting her options and coalition building. But when she's done 536 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: that exhaustion, she's written some pretty scathing descents, and so 537 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be surprised if when come June, when the 538 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: Court reverses Row, we get a pretty striking descent from 539 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: her too. What do you think is the best that 540 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: progressives and pro choice people can hope for now? What 541 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: should they do? What can they do? I think there's 542 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: not much that can be done to convince the court now, 543 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: although there may be, because I think that s P. Eight, 544 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: that Texas law banning aversion was a trial balloon, and 545 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: you could view this League opinion as a trial balloon. 546 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: And so if people are consistently protesting and donating and 547 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: kind of demonstrating that this issue is not going away, 548 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: that this is not just what's in the headlines today 549 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,479 Speaker 1: and then people move on with their lives, that may 550 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: give the court pause. But I think mostly what people 551 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: who are appro choice need to realize is that they 552 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 1: have to play the long game. I mean, it took 553 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: fifty years to reverse Roe v. Wade, So they have 554 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: to be willing to try to focus on success at 555 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: the state and local level and the short term in 556 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: facilitating access for people who have to travel out of state, 557 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: and then I think in the long term, you know, 558 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: doing the kind of political work to change the court 559 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: and change politics again, right, and not look for quick fixes. 560 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: Because the supreme world is going to over row in June. 561 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: I don't think there's much anybody can do to stop that. 562 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: So I think it's more a question of what is 563 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: the price that people have to pay when that happens, 564 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: you know, whether that's politicians or the court. And I 565 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: think that's something that people can determine going forward. Attorney 566 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: and author Mary Ziegler. Last year, politics in the state 567 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: of Texas became an ominous bell weather for the rest 568 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: of America. In September, the Texas legislature passed Senate Bill eight, 569 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: colloquially called the Texas Heartbeat Act. The law banned abortions 570 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: after the detection of a fetal heartbeat, around six weeks 571 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: before Some women even know that they're pregnant. Anna Upani 572 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: is the executive director of Fund Texas Choice, an organization 573 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: whose sole purpose is to provide funding and assistance to 574 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: Texas who need help traveling to their abortion appointment, both 575 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: in and out of the state of Texas. This Rupani 576 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: earned a masters in social work at Florida State and 577 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: a law degree from the New England School of Law 578 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: before returning to the state where she was raised. I 579 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: wondered what it was like growing up in Texas and 580 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: if abortion was treated like a dirty secret there. It 581 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,479 Speaker 1: definitely wasn't discussed really. And it's funny you say that 582 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: because something that I've been talking about recently a lot 583 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: of people is about language access and how if you're 584 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: raised in certain parts of the country, you don't understand 585 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: what sometimes you're saying because of the culture and the 586 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: community you're raised around. So when I went off to college, 587 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: I kept saying it was pro life because I personally 588 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: may not have had an abortion, but the person next 589 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: to me could have could have. And I was like, no, 590 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: that's pro choice. But in Texas you're taught your pro life, 591 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: and so you keep thinking you're pro life, even though 592 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: that is not at all what I was actually intending 593 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: to say, And so abortion wasn't talked about. The idea 594 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: of being pro choice wasn't talked about. All that was 595 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: talked about is abortion is bad, pro life is good. 596 00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: We have to save babies, even though what we know 597 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: now is their embryos or fetuses and they're not actual children, right, 598 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: And so it was something that wasn't talked about, and 599 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: even in a Muslim upbringing, it wasn't talked about. I remember, 600 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: you know, first when I took the job at Fund 601 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: Texas Choice, it was like, how is my family going 602 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: to react to this? And luckily they're very happy that 603 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: I'm doing this and they say the word abortion out loud. 604 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: But it doesn't always happen that way. You're raised in Texas, 605 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: you graduated from New England law school. How soon thereafter 606 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: did you return to Texas? Could you live in Texas 607 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: now obviously and work from there? Yep? I came back 608 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,239 Speaker 1: in so immediately after graduation. I took the Texas Bar 609 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: Exam in Texas and have been in Texas since. And 610 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: when you got down there, how quickly did you get 611 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: into the work you're doing now or what other work 612 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: that preceded this, yep. So I became staff attorney doing 613 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,719 Speaker 1: family law with undocumented survivors of domestic violence pretty quickly, 614 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: like within a year of coming back to Texas, and 615 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: I stayed. I worked in immigration and family law with 616 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: undocumented survivors for nearly eight years, and then I came 617 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: to fund Texas Choice. I don't know what the best 618 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: words are, but people kind of sort of knew this 619 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: was a possibility because while people were operating from a 620 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: place of comfort that Roe v. Wade was safe, that 621 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: Roe v. Wade was established law, it was president that 622 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: the pro life people, the anti abortion people were in 623 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: the garage doing push ups all night getting ready for this, 624 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: you know, big Fandango of theirs. What do you think 625 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: abortion law once Roe v. Wade is overturned? What will 626 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: become of abortion law in the state of Texas? Where 627 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: will it go? The question we is heavy on me 628 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: because I think about it like every night. And you know, 629 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: Texas has been living in what is a postro future 630 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: for the last eight months, and so if row is overturned, 631 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: it just exacerbates what we have seen in the last 632 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: eight months, and so of our clients have had to 633 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: leave the state to access care. It's not just to Oklahoma, right, 634 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: It's not just to Louisiana. It's to Colorado, it's to 635 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: Washington State, it's too d C. It's to New York. Now, 636 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: if Roe v. Wade is in fact overturned like we 637 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: think it is, twenty four more states are likely going 638 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: to limit or ban abortion. And if that happens, the 639 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: states nearby that Texans used to go to, like Oklahoma 640 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: and Kansas, are also not going to have access to abortion, 641 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: and so more folks are going to have to leave 642 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: the states to get to care in safe haven, so 643 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: to speak. And those safe states are going to be inundated. 644 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 1: And so if they still have the ten clinicians in 645 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: the same city, ten clinicians can see a hundred patients, say, 646 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: now all of those were Texans. Maybe now they're going 647 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: to be from twenty four more states. So the amount 648 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: of folks that are going is going to increase. So 649 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: time to get an appointment is going to be longer. 650 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: Folks are going to be pregnant longer. Then on top 651 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: of that, yep, and if you're pregnant longer, you're dealing 652 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: with all of the complications of a pregnancy but then 653 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: the further along you are, the harder. Um the appointment 654 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: is on your body. So the abortion appointment takes longer 655 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: than just say an hour in the office, right it's 656 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: it can be. And then you have the day, the 657 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 1: two days you have to take off of work. You know, 658 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: if you go to a clinic in Dallas, for example, 659 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 1: if it still was providing abortions beyond six weeks, then 660 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: you could go just down the road come back home. 661 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 1: Now you're having to take off of work, you're having 662 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 1: to find childcare, and then you're having to travel, right, 663 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: and sometimes if you can't find childcare, you have to 664 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 1: take your children with you. And what if you're a 665 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: nursing parents, So all of those things are going to 666 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: be further exacerbated if the opinion that we saw is 667 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: in fact what ends up happening. In Texas would be 668 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: the largest state to ban abortion. It is the largest 669 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: state to ban abortion um and so you're talking about 670 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,879 Speaker 1: fifty six thousand people around to get abortions every year, 671 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: and now we're trying to move fifty six people out 672 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: of the state, and that's just not possible. People have 673 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: an abortion in Texas they did so in around fifty 674 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: six thousand folks an abortion in Texas. I think in 675 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen it was like fifty three thousand, So fifty 676 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,280 Speaker 1: thousand plus folks get abortions in Texas. That doesn't include 677 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: all of the Texans that have left the states. That's 678 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: just how many people have got an abortion in Texas. 679 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,479 Speaker 1: So on average, we're looking at fifty thou people trying 680 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: to leave this state every year. Now your work, you're 681 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: in an office with a bunch of other lawyers and staff, 682 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: or how much do you interact with people who your 683 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: organization is helping to facilitate them to get an abortion. 684 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: You don't pay for the abortions, correct, right, We don't 685 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: pay for the abortions, but we directly talked. So our 686 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: team we're made up of eight fall time staff and 687 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 1: one part time staff. I'm the executive director, so I 688 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 1: do not actually practice law here. But we have five 689 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,479 Speaker 1: programmatic staff, so three folks are doing the actual trip 690 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: planning for clients. So if you call today and we 691 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 1: in fact can't help you, if someone will do your 692 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: intake and then they'll transfer you over to a program 693 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: coordinator who will work with the individuals seeking an abortion 694 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: from the time they call us to the time they 695 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 1: come back home from the abortion appointment. So we will 696 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: book their ticket, we will book their hotel, we will 697 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,720 Speaker 1: book their right chairs, we will provide food, will provide childcare, 698 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 1: all of the things that are kind of the in 699 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: between from booking an abortion appointment to getting there, and 700 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: then we'll help you get back. And so our staff 701 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: is constantly talking to clients. Do you book the appointment 702 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 1: for the abortion itself, No, we don't because those needs 703 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 1: are being filled by other organizations, and so we wanted 704 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,919 Speaker 1: to We identified a unique need that folks were having. 705 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: We're struggling to get to their abortion appointment, because if 706 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:46,879 Speaker 1: they struggle to pay for it, they likely can't pay 707 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: to get to their abortion appointment, and so we focus 708 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: on that specific and unique need. Are we headed toward 709 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: a reality in which the services you provide will be 710 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 1: outlawed by the state of Texas. If you have to 711 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 1: book air fair for you, to book hotels, for you 712 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,360 Speaker 1: to intercede or aid in a bet in any way 713 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: this process in and of the state, they're going to 714 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: try to criminalize that too. We think so, Yeah, We've 715 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: received a season to this letter about a month or 716 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: so ago from a Texas House representative who basically said 717 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: what we're doing is criminal, and the statutes that existed 718 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: pre ROW are still the law of the land if 719 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: ROW were to be overturned, and so we're criminal entities 720 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: and we're going to be criminalized basically for doing the 721 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,240 Speaker 1: work we're doing. So that's not a far fetched reality 722 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: in our world. That is the likelihood that's coming post ROW, 723 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: with the level of counseling and the level of care 724 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 1: that is provided to women who go off and have 725 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: this procedure where they want them to fully understand and 726 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 1: and and make that choice freely and fully informed. Would 727 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: you say that any significant proportion of the women that 728 00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,359 Speaker 1: are having an abortion today are regretting that, I'd say 729 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 1: most folks that we serve, so all of the pregnant 730 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: folks we serve, have never come back to us and 731 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: said that we regret having or making this decision. We 732 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:09,879 Speaker 1: often reach back to our clients two to four weeks 733 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: after their abortion appointment, and almost always clients say thank 734 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: you so much for helping as you saved my life, 735 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,240 Speaker 1: or thank you so much for supporting me. I wouldn't 736 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: have been able to have another child sixty two pers 737 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: and our clients are already parenting, so they know what 738 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 1: it's like to parent. They know if they can and 739 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 1: can't have this pregnancy go to term right, And so 740 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:31,959 Speaker 1: a lot of our most of our clients, in fact, 741 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: say this was really important for me. I wouldn't have 742 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: been able to get an abortion without your help, and 743 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: so you know, you saved me. That's what we hear. 744 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: We don't hear the regret. The clients often say it 745 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 1: is the best choice they have made. It allowed them 746 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 1: the freedom to do what they are doing today. But 747 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 1: otherwise they wouldn't have been able to have the freedom 748 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: to pursue lives in the way that they have, either 749 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: to have a child later when they were ready, or 750 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: to get a master's degree, or to move any of 751 00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 1: those things, and all of those things or things our 752 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: clients have said to us. So when when Roe v. 753 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 1: Wade viewed for so many decades now as settled law, 754 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: and now we're faced with the rather likely proposition that 755 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: it's going to tumble and it's going to be gone, 756 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: which is just unthinkable to me. And I'm wondering if 757 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 1: the second thing that's on that list is a federal 758 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: abortion ban and that we are closer to that now 759 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 1: than we've ever been. Do you agree, Are we closer 760 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: now than we've ever been to a federal abortion law? Yeah? Probably. 761 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: I don't know if that would happen, but you know, 762 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: I did read it in the news this weekend that 763 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell said that that's honestly on the table now 764 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 1: and why not? And I and I think it's it's 765 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: kind of funny and almost hypocritical, Like the whole point 766 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,279 Speaker 1: of overturning Row is to give back the power to 767 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 1: the states to decide, and then if you do a 768 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 1: federal abortion band, you're going completely opposite of that, because 769 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 1: now you're taking it away from the states once again. 770 00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: And so do I think abortion should be protected at 771 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: the federal level? Yes, Do A think that there's a 772 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 1: possibility the discussion for a national federal or a federal 773 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: abortion band is on the table. Yes, I don't think 774 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,320 Speaker 1: that would pass muster, just because if we think about 775 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: who gets abortions, it's across party lines, it's it's across race, 776 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: it's across gender, it's across this economic status, it's across ages. 777 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,240 Speaker 1: And so the idea that if abortion was banned federally, 778 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,360 Speaker 1: no one would be able to act as an abortion 779 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,360 Speaker 1: including folks like Republicans who were anti abortion, who have 780 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 1: in facts gotten an abortion right. And so the outcry 781 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: I think for a national band would be higher than 782 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: what it is right now. And as we know, polls 783 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: have showed us that at least sixty percent of Americans, 784 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 1: regardless of party, believe that abortion should at least be 785 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: accessible in some capacity. Fund Texas Choice executive director Anna Upani. 786 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be 787 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,759 Speaker 1: sure to follow Here's the thing on the I Heart 788 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 1: radio app spot of y or wherever you get your podcasts. 789 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,399 Speaker 1: When we come back, Anna Rupani speculates on what other 790 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: laws are at risk if Roe v. Wade is indeed overturned. 791 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,439 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. 792 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 1: Anna Rupani of Fund Texas Choice is engaged in the 793 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: on the ground work helping Texans gain access to out 794 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: of state abortions. The native Texan told me why her 795 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,720 Speaker 1: state has been ground zero for the anti abortion movement. 796 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,719 Speaker 1: I mean Texas is large, and lots of people are 797 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:47,799 Speaker 1: moving to Texas. I mean I think Dallas Austin and 798 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,719 Speaker 1: Houston are some of the top three largicities growing in 799 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 1: the nation. And so I think people are flocking to 800 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,720 Speaker 1: Texas because of the Texas Yeah, I think for Texas. 801 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 1: Let's not kid ourselves, it's mostly that, right, and the land. Right, Like, 802 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:01,919 Speaker 1: if you live in California and you're paying one point 803 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:06,520 Speaker 1: two million dollars for foot house, you could get a 804 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,719 Speaker 1: lot more for one point two million in Texas, or 805 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 1: you could get a four thousand square foot house with land, 806 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 1: and so we think that's a big part of it. 807 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,279 Speaker 1: And you don't have state taxes, and so now you're like, Okay, 808 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 1: I can think about living in Texas. And parts of 809 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: Texas are very beautiful, and the larger cities are very 810 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:27,719 Speaker 1: much welcoming and you know, progressive. But Texas is so 811 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: massive that you think about the rural areas and Texas 812 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,360 Speaker 1: could be five states, right, and so there are parts 813 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,840 Speaker 1: of it and pockets of it that are somehow overshadowing 814 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 1: the larger cities. But then let's not forget jerrymandering as 815 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,239 Speaker 1: a thing, and states like Texas are jerrymandered, so it 816 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 1: doesn't matter. There's massive populations and cities like Dallas Austin, Houston, 817 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,520 Speaker 1: San Antonio, Corpus Christi, al Baso. What ends up happening 818 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,839 Speaker 1: is all of the smaller cities make up more in 819 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: the voting power because of the Jerrymander districts, the state 820 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 1: legislature is full of more republic against the Democrats, and 821 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,359 Speaker 1: you ended up having more Republicans voting for Center Bill eight, 822 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,640 Speaker 1: which has you know, become known as a six week ban. 823 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 1: It didn't matter that all of the Democrats said no 824 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: or could have said no, we still didn't have a 825 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 1: majority or even fifty. And so you have more people 826 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:26,880 Speaker 1: that are anti abortion and anti choice voting against abortion access. 827 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:28,880 Speaker 1: And so that's what happened in Taxas. It's not just, 828 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: you know, all of these folks are anti abortion, it's 829 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:35,920 Speaker 1: all of these folks are probably and likely feeding on 830 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: power and want more power and want to continue to 831 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,880 Speaker 1: suppress the folks too, that are already lacking power to 832 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: continue to access it because they don't get a choice 833 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 1: over their bodies. It has nothing to do, I think, 834 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,279 Speaker 1: with not actually wanting to access healthcare. It has a 835 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 1: lot more to do with what is the impact of 836 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,840 Speaker 1: not accessing healthcare? When I first heard someone say in 837 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks, Roe v. Wade was now 838 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 1: likely to topple. I thought, oh god, this is another 839 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:08,840 Speaker 1: sign that this country is having a nervous breakdown. I 840 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: do believe the United States isn't a full blown nervous 841 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 1: breakdo and ever since Trump was elected in two thousand six, 842 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:19,800 Speaker 1: And what's next? Is contraception really next? Do you believe 843 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,000 Speaker 1: that's possible? Yeah, I mean I think I read something 844 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 1: that Tennessee is trying to allow Plan B. And if 845 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,920 Speaker 1: folks have access Plan B, there's like a fifty fine. 846 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 1: It's literally a two step pill and you're supposed to 847 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,360 Speaker 1: take that within seventy two hours of having unprotected sex, 848 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,840 Speaker 1: just to make sure you don't get pregnant. It doesn't 849 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,240 Speaker 1: cause an abortion, it's literally to help prevent getting pregnant. 850 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,400 Speaker 1: And so, yeah, contraceptive care is probably next. So it's 851 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,439 Speaker 1: probably gay marriage, and so it's probably in a racial 852 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 1: marriage because when you think about how Roe v. Wade 853 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,759 Speaker 1: was defined, it was it was under the privacy that 854 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,320 Speaker 1: individuals are afforded under the fourteenth Amendment from the number 855 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,799 Speaker 1: of rights that they have, and so privacy was the 856 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 1: underpinning to access to contraceptive Karen Griswold, privacy is the 857 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 1: underpinning of what you do in your home and against 858 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,239 Speaker 1: anti sodomy laws in Texas v. Lawrence. It was the 859 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,600 Speaker 1: underpinning for obergha Fell, for gay marriage, and it was 860 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,400 Speaker 1: the underpinning of who you choose to marry in loving 861 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,960 Speaker 1: And so once you get rid of privacy, all of 862 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,800 Speaker 1: those things are up for debate again. And and Alito's draft, 863 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,080 Speaker 1: they are talking about getting rid of privacy. Right that 864 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,120 Speaker 1: privacy is not in the constitution and therefore you're not 865 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: afforded that right to privacy. Um, so anything that comes 866 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: from that is gone. And and just so you know, 867 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,640 Speaker 1: folks in the reproductive justice reproductive choice abortion movement, I 868 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,560 Speaker 1: have been sounding the alarm about Roe v. Wade for 869 00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,240 Speaker 1: a very long time, where it has always been the floor, 870 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 1: not the ceiling. And folks have been sounding that alarm 871 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,840 Speaker 1: for long before Trump came into office. I think folks 872 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,360 Speaker 1: thought that that was more of a reality once Trump 873 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 1: came into office, But that alarm has been ringing well 874 00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,200 Speaker 1: before that time. And it's because we've seen things like 875 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,319 Speaker 1: House Bill Too. So House Bill Too was a law 876 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,239 Speaker 1: past in Texas. They basically said that if someone wants 877 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,520 Speaker 1: to provide an abortion, they have to have admitting privileges 878 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:11,479 Speaker 1: in a hospital nearby, which is nearly impossible for lots 879 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,359 Speaker 1: of clinicians who are in smaller cities where hospitals aren't there. 880 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:19,279 Speaker 1: They aren't there, and so that shuttered fifty of the 881 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:23,239 Speaker 1: clinics overnight. So we went from forty to clinics to 882 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: about twenty clinics overnight in Texas, and then throughout that 883 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,400 Speaker 1: year several shutdown and we were left with eight clinics 884 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 1: in the entire state of Taxes and so fun Texas 885 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:36,520 Speaker 1: Choice came to be because we're like, oh, folks are 886 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,279 Speaker 1: gonna have to travel really far to get to their 887 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,440 Speaker 1: abortions in Texas is how are they going to do that? 888 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,480 Speaker 1: And so we decided to provide that logistical support. But 889 00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,560 Speaker 1: I bring all that up because that alarm in pretty 890 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:52,120 Speaker 1: much was there eight clinics one fifth of the clinics, right, 891 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:57,000 Speaker 1: And so we all knew this was coming pre because 892 00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:59,319 Speaker 1: there have been so many laws that have just been 893 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,399 Speaker 1: passing and trying to be passed, even if they've been 894 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 1: ultimately banned by the Supreme Court. Anti abortion folks and 895 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,600 Speaker 1: anti cho choice folks have been doing this and we've 896 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:11,399 Speaker 1: been sending the alarm for a long time to say, hey, 897 00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 1: this is coming, this is happening. It's not just that 898 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,439 Speaker 1: started about. You know, if people want to know what's 899 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,800 Speaker 1: going to happen, if we're always overturned to ask Texans 900 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,319 Speaker 1: that are doing this work, that have been doing this work, 901 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,759 Speaker 1: they know what this is like. We've spent three or 902 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,080 Speaker 1: four times our annual budget in the last eight months 903 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:31,840 Speaker 1: for programmatic care because that's how much more expensive it's gotten. 904 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:33,799 Speaker 1: That's how much money we have to spend. And so 905 00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:35,800 Speaker 1: if you want to talk about what's going to happen, 906 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,560 Speaker 1: listen to Texans and make sure that doesn't happen again 907 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,360 Speaker 1: by electing folks that are pro choice, that are pro abortion. 908 00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:44,680 Speaker 1: And I know folks are. I'm not pro abortion, people 909 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:46,359 Speaker 1: say that all the time, but really pro abortions about 910 00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,000 Speaker 1: getting access to abortion care because it's health care decisions 911 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,680 Speaker 1: and you should have access to your health care. What 912 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:56,160 Speaker 1: does fund Texas Choice, what is it telling its constituency 913 00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,799 Speaker 1: in Texas? And beyond that they can do between now 914 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,680 Speaker 1: and the mid terms to have any impact whatsoever on 915 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,719 Speaker 1: what's happening right now. Three things that we've been talking 916 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,160 Speaker 1: about not just to our supporters but just out loud, 917 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,280 Speaker 1: is support your local abortion funds, their local abortion funds everywhere, 918 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,600 Speaker 1: support them there on the ground doing the work. They 919 00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,040 Speaker 1: are supporting the folks in paying their abortion, getting them 920 00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: to their abortion, helping them leave the stat if need be. 921 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,799 Speaker 1: The second is vote like your life depends on it, 922 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:26,960 Speaker 1: and make sure that people around you were voting too, 923 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:31,279 Speaker 1: because it really, in fact does right. The more of 924 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,120 Speaker 1: your rights that get diminished and turnished, the less human 925 00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,840 Speaker 1: and less citizen you are. So make sure you're voting 926 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,520 Speaker 1: for pro choice and pro abortion folks. And then third, 927 00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:44,240 Speaker 1: talk about abortion. Stop making abortion the word abortion stigma. 928 00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:46,800 Speaker 1: Stop saying I don't want anyone to have an abortion, 929 00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,759 Speaker 1: or abortion only happens when you know there's dire circumstances, 930 00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,359 Speaker 1: or we should have exceptions for rape. No abortion should 931 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,480 Speaker 1: be allowed whenever someone needs it and wants it, because 932 00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,920 Speaker 1: we shouldn't allow them and bodily autonomy be autonomy to 933 00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,200 Speaker 1: be violated. But before we say they should access healthcare, 934 00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:06,360 Speaker 1: So talk about abortion. De stigmatize it as much as possible, 935 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,040 Speaker 1: because that's the only way forward. Right. If we keep 936 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,440 Speaker 1: making abortion stigma, we're never going to be able to 937 00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,480 Speaker 1: move past that. It's a decision for someone to make 938 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:23,359 Speaker 1: for their own healthcare. My thanks to Anna Upani at 939 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:28,360 Speaker 1: Mary Ziegler. This episode was recorded at CDM Studios in 940 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:32,000 Speaker 1: New York City. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Zack McNeice, 941 00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:36,240 Speaker 1: and Maureen Hoben. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social 942 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:40,200 Speaker 1: media manager is Danielle Gingwich. Hi'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the 943 00:49:40,200 --> 00:50:00,799 Speaker 1: Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio. The Sun 944 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:01,719 Speaker 1: Time to come.