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Speaker 1: Music Saved Me.

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Speaker 2: Hey there, amln Hoffman, host of the Music Saved Me podcast,

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Speaker 2: and from time to time we like to recommend and

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Speaker 2: share other podcasts we love with you. We really love

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Speaker 2: the great work of all the wonderful people at Home

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Speaker 2: Based Nation in Boston and all the great work they

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Speaker 2: do to support our heroes, the veterans and their families,

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Speaker 2: and we invite you to check out this episode of

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Speaker 2: Home Based Nation featuring a past guest that we had

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Speaker 2: on this podcast, the great singer songwriter Force of Nature

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Speaker 2: Mary Goshet.

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Speaker 3: Revels and rules would be.

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Speaker 1: Behold to.

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Speaker 4: Juney Wecord moreing Jeans revels Rules, it would be.

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Speaker 5: The song you're listening to is called Rifles and Rosary

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Speaker 5: Beats on the album with the same title that was

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Speaker 5: Grammy nominated for Best Folk Album in twenty eighteen. It

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Speaker 5: was written by two people, Mary Gosche and Iraq veteran

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Speaker 5: Joe Costello. Mary was introduced to co writing with veterans

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Speaker 5: through the organization's Songwriting with Soldiers. She says this type

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Speaker 5: of work is all about agency, creating a place for

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Speaker 5: the service member to transition from being the story to

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Speaker 5: becoming the storyteller, and she writes in her recent book,

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Speaker 5: Saved by a Song, this is what songs do best.

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Speaker 5: They show our insides on the outside. On Home Based

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Speaker 5: Nation Today, a conversation with songwriter, author, and military family

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Speaker 5: member Mary Gosche. I'm your host, Ron Hershberg, Thanks for

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Speaker 5: tuning in. A New Orleans native, Mary had a revelation

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Speaker 5: in July nineteen ninety while listening on her car radio

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Speaker 5: to the song Strange Fire by the Indigo Girls. The

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Speaker 5: song ended, she clenched the steering wheel and cried, and

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Speaker 5: she tells me I was in pain, a pain of

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Speaker 5: living in unlived life. She may have been showing success

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Speaker 5: on paper at the time, a head chef and owner

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Speaker 5: of the thriving restaurant Dixie Kitchen in Boston, but her

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Speaker 5: life was spiraling downward with addiction, alcohol, failed relationships mixed

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Speaker 5: with sadness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember banging my hands against the steering wheel

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Speaker 1: and crying. I was miserable. I was successful, but I

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Speaker 1: didn't I wasn't sober, and I wasn't happy.

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Speaker 5: A few months later, she was pulled over for drunk

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Speaker 5: driving and things started to change for the better, and

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Speaker 5: she has remained sober since for thirty two years. Through songs,

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Speaker 5: she discovered that she could express things that she was

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Speaker 5: not able to express in other ways. She gained confidence

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Speaker 5: in writing and performing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I look at it as it's magic. You take

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Speaker 1: some of the darkest days of your life and write

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Speaker 1: about it in a song, and you make something beautiful

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Speaker 1: out of it. I mean, that's alchemy. And here's the catch.

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Speaker 1: You're not going to outrun it. You can't outrun it.

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Speaker 1: It's with you. It's in you, it's in your body,

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Speaker 1: it's in your brain, it's in your soul, it's in

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Speaker 1: your emotional makeup. You're not going to outrun it. And

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Speaker 1: so for me, the answer was to stop running and

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Speaker 1: start slowly walking towards it and trying to alchemize it

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Speaker 1: with music and song. I didn't know that's what I

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Speaker 1: was doing. Of course, this is all in retrospect.

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Speaker 5: She wrote about early childhood trauma and both the pain

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Speaker 5: and blessings of being adopted at eleven months of age.

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Speaker 5: She wrote about family alcoholism, and her three wars growing

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Speaker 5: up Vietnam, her parents war with each other, and the

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Speaker 5: war between she and her father. Mary's dad served in

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Speaker 5: the Korean War, and her cousin was killed in Vietnam

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Speaker 5: at the age of twenty three. So the military family

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Speaker 5: service runs deep and Mary and these days, she continues

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Speaker 5: to serve others through her songs. For veterans, they can

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Speaker 5: heal personal wounds and offer something simple but essential, being seen.

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Speaker 1: When I start to discuss what I've been able to

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Speaker 1: do with the veterans, what we've been able to do

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Speaker 1: with the veterans, the way I look at it is

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Speaker 1: we're giving agency. You go from being the story to

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Speaker 1: being the story teller. The storyteller has agency. The storyteller

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Speaker 1: is able to make choices and to decide how the

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Speaker 1: story ends.

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Speaker 5: When Mary talks about her sessions with songwriting with soldiers,

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Speaker 5: you can almost hear the phrase in the room, me too, brother,

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Speaker 5: me too, when she describes service members sharing each other's songs.

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Speaker 1: They're all scared. They're scared of being rejected, but the

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Speaker 1: opposite happens. They are embraced and empathy occurs. Everyone in

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Speaker 1: the room empathizes, and in that moment they're no longer alone.

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Speaker 5: Along with songwriter Beth Nielson Chapman, she wrote with a

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Speaker 5: group of spouses of EOD or Explosive Ordinance disposal officers

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Speaker 5: called the War after the War about the challenge of

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Speaker 5: family reintegration. It's opening line, who's going to care for

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Speaker 5: the ones who care for the ones who went to war?

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Speaker 1: Being married to bomb expert whose job every day is

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Speaker 1: to dismantle bombs built to kill them, that's just a

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Speaker 1: crazy marriage to me. That's just that's the most intensity

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Speaker 1: I've ever heard. It sounds like a pressure cooker every

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Speaker 1: single day. And they're young people and they have kids,

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Speaker 1: and their husbands come home different. They come home eventually,

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Speaker 1: and they come home different. And so that led to

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Speaker 1: this notion that there's a war after the war and

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Speaker 1: we don't really talk about it.

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Speaker 5: This song, incidentally, was named Song of the Year in

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Speaker 5: twenty eighteen on NPR by the New Yorkers Malcolm Gladwell.

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Speaker 5: And just the other day, Mary released her brand new

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Speaker 5: and eleventh album, Dark Enough to See the Stars, and

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Speaker 5: we are honored to share a little preview with you,

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Speaker 5: so stick around for that. Mary joined us from her

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Speaker 5: Nashville home and on our wall hung two flags, one

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Speaker 5: for Ukraine and the other a large rainbow American flag,

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Speaker 5: highlighted by sparkling lights, creating a glow in an interview

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Speaker 5: in twenty nineteen with the Love to All Project, Mary said,

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Speaker 5: I am the first openly queer person to play the

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Speaker 5: Grand Old Opry. I work in a musical genre where

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Speaker 5: most often I am the only gay person. I don't

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Speaker 5: let that stop me. I am so much more than

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Speaker 5: just queer in my work. I focus on what connects

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Speaker 5: people and it works out well. It's Pride Month, and

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Speaker 5: this word pride has powerful meaning when having the privilege

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Speaker 5: of sitting with Mary Gachet. Mary shares with us the

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Speaker 5: pride of being a supporter of our veterans and military

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Speaker 5: families and the pride of being a savior of so

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Speaker 5: many with her songs. Thanks so much for joining us momb.

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Speaker 3: Down School homes kids in the street.

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Speaker 1: Long Mary go'she Hello, good to see you.

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Speaker 5: Great to see you. I am so happy to have

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Speaker 5: you on the zoom as they say together, gosh. We

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Speaker 5: met a few years ago at City Winery in the

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Speaker 5: back room, the green room, and we met with Mary Judd,

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Speaker 5: and there was a veteran that you that you had

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Speaker 5: co written with or was on the songwriting with Soldiers team,

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Speaker 5: and that was a great moment. I'll get to it

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Speaker 5: in a little bit. But to sort of see where

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Speaker 5: you were in your career at that moment, and then

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Speaker 5: learning more about you and now listening to your book

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Speaker 5: this past couple of weeks, Wow, the journey was It

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Speaker 5: just started for me when I got to know you

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Speaker 5: like three years ago, four years ago. But knowing what

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Speaker 5: you've pomplished before that time, to me is just it's great.

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Speaker 5: It's great to talk with you now.

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Speaker 1: It's been a it's been a journey, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: been a journey. I really do believe that music and

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Speaker 1: song has been integral in my in my recovery, and

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Speaker 1: in my transformation from a human disaster area and a

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Speaker 1: functional being.

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Speaker 5: Into a functional being. Not only quite functional, but you

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Speaker 5: know someone who not only wrote this great book saved

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Speaker 5: by a song, and then went into the studio and

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Speaker 5: read it and spoke spoken word. So one of the

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Speaker 5: things you started off in the book, I think it

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Speaker 5: was near the beginning you said you like to go

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Speaker 5: for walks, and that's when you kind of breathe think

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Speaker 5: about ideas.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I did that for a decade and it's

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Speaker 1: actually pivoted now. I swim, okay, I swim a mile

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Speaker 1: a day, but it's the same process. I'm in another zone.

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Speaker 1: Ideas come or I sort out stuff without consciously trying

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Speaker 1: to while I'm just counting my strokes.

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Speaker 5: In that sort of state of flow. You know. I

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Speaker 5: mentioned that, Mary, because I've been going on walks, uh,

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Speaker 5: and I've been actually doing some running, trying to get

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Speaker 5: back in shape, and I was I walked and ran

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Speaker 5: to your book over seven hours in the last couple

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Speaker 5: of weeks.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, so we're we're we're acquainted now.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so you've been hanging out. You didn't know it, Mary,

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Speaker 5: but you've been hanging out with me for a while,

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Speaker 5: and we've been like, you know, going down the block,

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Speaker 5: We've gone around the track. I've had some moments where

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Speaker 5: I've stopped in my tracks and need to pull over.

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Speaker 5: And I know that's kind of what you One of

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Speaker 5: the one of the big parts of your journey was, uh,

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Speaker 5: was pulling over that pulling over when you heard that

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Speaker 5: Indigo Girls song Strange Fire.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there was some message in the bottle for me,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't know what it was. I didn't know

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Speaker 1: what it was for quite a while, and it took

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Speaker 1: it took quite a while to make sense of that feeling.

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Speaker 1: It was more than just a song. It was there

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Speaker 1: was so much in that sound and I had no

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Speaker 1: idea what it was trying to tell me, but it was.

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Speaker 5: And you look back on that and I think you

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Speaker 5: told Amy Ray, who interviewed you, you had the pain

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Speaker 5: of an unlived life. Can you that's right? Can we

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Speaker 5: dive into that?

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Speaker 1: We can? It's hard to you know, we are really

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Speaker 1: complex beings and there's so much about that that's hard

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Speaker 1: to express in language. But I think that drugs and

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Speaker 1: alcohol blocked me from what I would have done otherwise.

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Speaker 1: Of course I didn't know that's what was going on.

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Speaker 1: So I ended up doing what I could, and I did,

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Speaker 1: you know, pretty well. I found investors. I was able

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Speaker 1: to be part owner of a couple of restaurants in Boston.

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Speaker 1: The first one was a little placed on the bottom

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Speaker 1: of Beacon Hill called Lunch Break across from Mesh General

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Speaker 1: and we did that successfully for years. And then opened

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Speaker 1: up Dixie, the Dixie Kitchen, which we did for over

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Speaker 1: a decade, the Louisiana style food in Boston. And I

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Speaker 1: had a little clamshack on the beach in Dorchester by

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Speaker 1: the Salvon Hill Yacht Club Salvn Hill, and I was

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Speaker 1: able to do that kind of work. But what my

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Speaker 1: soul was interested in was music and song. And I

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Speaker 1: hadn't even tried because I didn't think I could. And

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Speaker 1: when I heard the sound of the Indigo Girl voices,

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Speaker 1: that just opened a like a I called it a trapdoor,

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Speaker 1: and I just fell through it. And it was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, what is this feeling? It feels horrible.

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Speaker 1: I love the song, I loved the sound, but the

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Speaker 1: feeling felt horrible.

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Speaker 5: That's when you pulled over.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember banging my hands against the steering wheel

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Speaker 1: and crying. I was miserable. I was successful, but I

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Speaker 1: didn't I wasn't sober, and I wasn't happy, and I

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Speaker 1: was going down the wrong road fast, like metaphorically, I

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Speaker 1: was sinking in addictions. And you know, not too long

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Speaker 1: after that, I got arrested for drunk driving. And that

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Speaker 1: was the best thing that ever happened to me, because

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Speaker 1: I got sober. That was July nineteen ninety And.

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Speaker 5: You're I think you're thirty two years Can I do

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Speaker 5: the math?

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Speaker 1: Thirty two years clean and sober?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, congratulations, my friend.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And so my early recovery was about trying to make

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Speaker 1: sense of that feeling about wondering and asking what am

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Speaker 1: I supposed to be doing? What would I do if

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Speaker 1: I could do anything? And the answer slowly started to

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Speaker 1: become you'd be a songwriter.

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Speaker 5: It took getting pulled over by a cop and arrested

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Speaker 5: for drunk driving. But then again, it sounds like when

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Speaker 5: you were sober was really when the magic happened.

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Speaker 1: Right right after I got sober, I started to develop

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Speaker 1: emotionally and spiritually. And you know, anybody addicted to drugs

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Speaker 1: and alcohol is not developing in any way completely stuck

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Speaker 1: as a human being in many ways developmentally, I was

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Speaker 1: fourteen when I got sober at twenty seven.

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Speaker 5: You were fourteen when you got sober at twenty seven.

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Speaker 1: Emotionally, spiritually, yeah, so.

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Speaker 5: And when you look at that time, was it the

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Speaker 5: opportunity to get into music and explore You talk a

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Speaker 5: lot about your book, how you know, getting getting on

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Speaker 5: that stage, whether it's club passim or another writer's round

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Speaker 5: where it's terrifying. But was it the anticipation of the

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Speaker 5: music that that drove you or was were you actually

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Speaker 5: feeling that you could write songs and perform and thus

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Speaker 5: that gave you more drive? It was a chicken of

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Speaker 5: the egg.

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Speaker 1: I had no idea what I was doing. I just

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Speaker 1: knew that that it was compelling to me to do

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Speaker 1: it and to get better at it. And I was

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Speaker 1: like everyone in the very beginning, I wasn't good at it,

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Speaker 1: so I had to learn how to do it. I

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Speaker 1: remember for quite some time, maybe years, on stage, just praying,

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Speaker 1: please help me to be as good at this as

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Speaker 1: I am at making gumbo and jambalaya. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: just that's all I'm asking Lord, Just get me there.

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Speaker 1: As you know, as I learned to be in the kitchen,

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Speaker 1: I knew I could learn to be on stage, but

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Speaker 1: I had to. I had to go through it in

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Speaker 1: real time in front of people, and that's humbling. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know why I was willing to do that.

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Speaker 1: Awful lot of people are not. I think it's because

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Speaker 1: I was sober, and I knew that whatever happened after

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Speaker 1: I got sober, it was all just a gift, because really,

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Speaker 1: if there were justice and fairness, I should have been dead.

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Speaker 1: So this was all kind of bonus. I'm still I'm

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Speaker 1: living in this bonus time. I got these bonus rounds,

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Speaker 1: and so that kind of round freed me to do

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Speaker 1: crazy things like get on stage when I knew that

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Speaker 1: I was not good at it.

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Speaker 5: So you went into this new culture, build yourself up,

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Speaker 5: got some fans around you, got people to really raise

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Speaker 5: an eyebrow that you had something to say, but that

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Speaker 5: you were kind of ballsy enough to do it, frankly right.

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Speaker 5: And the book is called Saved by a Song, So

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Speaker 5: you know, you don't have to read the book to

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Speaker 5: make the assumption that you were saved by music and

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Speaker 5: that transition and that moment that you just talked about.

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Speaker 1: I honestly believe that to be true.

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Speaker 5: And how how how has it saved others? And I

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Speaker 5: think is a big question. I want to get into

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Speaker 5: that a little, Mary, because you know I was just

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Speaker 5: when I said I was stopping my track, I was

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Speaker 5: thinking about you and Saint Vincent's thinking about that. Really,

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Speaker 5: you know, when you went to search for where you were,

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Speaker 5: where your birth, where you're a biological mom had dropped

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Speaker 5: you off at Saint Vincent's. And then the time that

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Speaker 5: you know you were struck by when HIV took its

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Speaker 5: to and and you really were kind of speaking for

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Speaker 5: that community that was really really not only ostracized but

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Speaker 5: lost and like not having a lot. There wasn't people

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Speaker 5: wrapping their arms around them. There weren't people wrapping around

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Speaker 5: their arms around them. And then talking about alcoholism itself

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Speaker 5: in an addiction, not to mention what of course, through

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Speaker 5: home base, we'll talk about the veteran experience. So I'm

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Speaker 5: throwing a lot of these in. You know, these are

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Speaker 5: chapters in your book, but there are chapters in your life,

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Speaker 5: in your life, yeah, and they're part of you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: So I'm kind of wondering when you sort of sit

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Speaker 5: back and you think about this, what's the thread here?

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Speaker 5: What's the commonality between all of this?

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Speaker 1: I think it doesn't make sense while you're in it,

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Speaker 1: and then you start to make sense of it. It's

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Speaker 1: in retrospect. Here's what I think. I think I grabbed

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Speaker 1: on to music and songs because my soul somehow intrinsically

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Speaker 1: new that I had to express things that I couldn't

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Speaker 1: express any other way, and those things had a lot

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Speaker 1: to do with my addiction. What caused me to be

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Speaker 1: an attic at age thirteen? How does that happen? How

305
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Speaker 1: what happens? How does a person end up that way?

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Speaker 1: And the answer is is because they're in pain and

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Speaker 1: they're playing doctor. They're medicating their own pain. Okay, why

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Speaker 1: was I in pain? And I had to start tracing

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Speaker 1: it back, and for me, all roads led to Saint Vincent's.

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Speaker 1: The day I was born, my mother gave me up

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Speaker 1: for adoption, and I spent a year at Saint Vincent's

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Speaker 1: before I was adopted, and in that time, my first

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Speaker 1: year on Earth, I didn't have parents and I was

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Speaker 1: not held enough. I was probably not fed enough, and

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Speaker 1: I ended up catatonic. And I didn't know any of

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Speaker 1: this until my almost late forties. Nobody told me that

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Speaker 1: I was catatonic when I was adopted. They didn't just sick, well, sorry,

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Speaker 1: go ahead and marriage. I didn't think it was something

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Speaker 1: I should be told, so I had to trace all

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Speaker 1: this myself, and using music and song as my springboard,

321
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Speaker 1: like I'm going to write songs about it, gave me

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Speaker 1: the courage to do it.

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Speaker 5: Your mom said that it took a couple of weeks,

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Speaker 5: but she reversed that. You say catatonia, So you weren't

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Speaker 5: looking left right, weren't You weren't interacting with people at

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Speaker 5: eleven months old, which is obviously a tough thing. A

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Speaker 5: tough pill to swallow to someone to tell you that

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Speaker 5: that was you. But look what your mom. Look at

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Speaker 5: the gift that she gave you.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely that is probably, you know, the story for so

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Speaker 1: many adoptive and children that you need to attach to someone,

332
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Speaker 1: and without attachment, you you shrivel and and and die

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Speaker 1: as you would to live as a baby. Uh And

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Speaker 1: uh uh you know, the the gift of adoption uh

335
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Speaker 1: is one that uh uh Uh that that that I

336
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Speaker 1: don't take lightly and I'm always going to be grateful

337
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Speaker 1: for that. That said, trauma of that first year uh

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Speaker 1: and the attachment disorder it left me with uh were

339
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Speaker 1: something I had to contend with and those were mine

340
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Speaker 1: uh And I had to as an adult start making

341
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Speaker 1: sense of it right uh. And this is where music

342
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Speaker 1: and song came in so handy, because that's where I

343
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Speaker 1: was driven to write about that kind of real stuff. Uh.

344
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Speaker 1: And as as I worked my way through it, I

345
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Speaker 1: started getting better, and uh the hole in my soul

346
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Speaker 1: started closing. And at some point I was asked to

347
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Speaker 1: work with Darden and songwriting with Soldiers, and I had

348
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Speaker 1: already had a deep understanding of how transformative music and

349
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Speaker 1: song could be around trauma. Right from my personal story right.

350
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Speaker 5: The theme really, so trauma is really kind of a

351
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Speaker 5: universal problem for kids, for adults, for civilians, for veterans,

352
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Speaker 5: and unleashing that opening that up is painful, but yet

353
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Speaker 5: what joy you can bring to somebody that goes through

354
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Speaker 5: that process. And actually, because you talk a lot about

355
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Speaker 5: how it's a translation, it's a way to talk about

356
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Speaker 5: things that you can't express.

357
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Speaker 1: Any other way. Yeah, yeah, I look at it as alchemy.

358
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Speaker 1: It's magic. You take some of the darkest days of

359
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Speaker 1: your life and write about it in a song and

360
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Speaker 1: you make something beautiful out of it. I mean, that's alchemy.

361
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Speaker 1: And here's the You're not going to outrun it. You

362
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Speaker 1: can't outrun it. It's with you. It's in you, it's

363
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Speaker 1: in your body, it's in your brain, it's in your soul,

364
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,719
Speaker 1: it's in your emotional makeup. You're not going to outrun it.

365
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Speaker 1: And so for me, the answer was to stop running

366
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Speaker 1: and start slowly walking towards it and trying to alchemize

367
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Speaker 1: it with music and song. I didn't know that's what

368
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Speaker 1: I was doing. Of course, this is all in retrospect,

369
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Speaker 1: but when I start to discuss what I've been able

370
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Speaker 1: to do, with the veterans. What we've been able to

371
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Speaker 1: do with the veterans. The way I look at it

372
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Speaker 1: is we're giving agency. You go from being the story

373
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Speaker 1: to being the story teller. The storyteller has agency. The

374
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Speaker 1: storyteller is able to make choices and to decide how

375
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Speaker 1: the story ends.

376
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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean you mentioned Darden Smith and Mary Judges

377
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 5: who started songwriting the Soldiers in twenty twelve. So now

378
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Speaker 5: we're looking at this is ten years ago, and that's

379
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Speaker 5: I met you know, I met Darden probably in twenty sixteen,

380
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 5: and like you and many, I was blown away by

381
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,239
Speaker 5: the concept. It sounded like you had the resume in

382
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 5: a sense, because you've been there, done that, You've you've

383
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:12,120
Speaker 5: been able to translate trauma. Now I'm going to read

384
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Speaker 5: your Rifles and Rosary Beads song if I may. Mirrors

385
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 5: frightened me. I don't recognize what I see. A stranger

386
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Speaker 5: with blood on his hands. Brother, I'm not that man.

387
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Speaker 5: Rifles and rosary beats, you hold tight, You hold on tight,

388
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Speaker 5: you hold on to what you need. Vic it in

389
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 5: morphine dreams, Rifles and rosary beats, there's a lot in

390
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 5: that mm hmm. In that one Stanza you wrote that

391
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Speaker 5: with Joe Costello veteran, right, you remember sitting down?

392
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Speaker 1: I do. Yeah. Joe was withdrawn, gaunt. He wasn't interacting

393
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Speaker 1: with the group very much. He looked down a lot.

394
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: He clearly was in pain. And you know, he had

395
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Speaker 1: written a poem called Rifles and Rosary Beads, and we

396
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:13,719
Speaker 1: talked about it, and the imagery was so powerful, the visual, uh,

397
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 1: you know, the idea of what are you holding on to?

398
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: Over there in Fallujah? You know, some guys are holding

399
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: their rifles, some guys are holding rosary beads, And so

400
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 1: I asked him, what were you holding on too? And

401
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: he got tears in his eyes and he said vicotin.

402
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: I said, well, I understand that we're we're on the

403
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 1: same page. There. I understand using medication, uh illegally to

404
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: to to self medicate pain and fear and grief and

405
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 1: sorrow and separation and loneliness. We understood each other.

406
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 5: Did that change the dynamic?

407
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 1: It did? We built trust right then and there, right

408
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: and then he told me he didn't look in the

409
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: mirror anymore. And that's how that ended up in the song.

410
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Speaker 5: Now, talking about the mirror, it reminds me of the mask.

411
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 5: It reminds me of So we do some therapy at

412
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 5: home base where it's mass therapy. That's stuff they do

413
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 5: at well to read where you paint the inside and

414
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 5: you paint the outside, and the veteran can express how

415
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 5: they view themselves inside and how others view them outside.

416
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 5: And it really made me think of that when you

417
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 5: when you said the following, you know, you said, songs

418
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 5: are what this is what songs do best. They show

419
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 5: our insides on the outside.

420
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Speaker 1: That's right.

421
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 5: Humans are all in the same boat. This new vulnerability

422
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 5: is being witnessed and what it does, it connects that

423
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 5: sense of self and also to each other, so that

424
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 5: outside and inside. I was, you know, listening to you

425
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 5: talk about that. I'm hearing the songs on the album.

426
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 5: I'm thinking about the lyrics. But to hear you describe

427
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 5: what they do, I think pulls it all together and

428
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 5: tell me about how it was when they when you

429
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 5: perform that song for his comrades, for his family.

430
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: Right, that's part of the Songwrity. Missildio's program is we

431
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 1: co write with the veteran and then we play the

432
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 1: song in front of the group in the early evening.

433
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: And when I started to play the song I'd written

434
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Speaker 1: with Joe. He was absolutely terrified because he was fixing

435
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 1: to be seen in a way he hadn't been seen before.

436
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 1: He was shaken. About halfway in there, he was crying.

437
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 1: It was all I could do not to cry. We

438
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: almost always cry. It's part of it, you know. I'm

439
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,439
Speaker 1: not a therapist. I can cry if I want to,

440
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: and I cry because it's so moving and because I

441
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: know that what's about to happen is he's going to

442
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: be embraced. The deepest fear is that he's going to

443
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 1: be rejected. Of course, that's why he's scared. They're all scared.

444
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 1: They're scared of being rejected. But the opposite happens. They

445
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 1: they are embraced, and empathy occurs. Everyone in the room empathizes,

446
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: and in that moment they're no longer alone. Someone sees

447
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,719
Speaker 1: them on the inside and says the magic words, me too, brother,

448
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: me too. You know he got you know, people putting

449
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 1: their arms around him, patting him on the back, saying

450
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,199
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, thank you. I know, I know

451
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: that feeling. I know I know what you're talking about.

452
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: I feel that way. It takes someone from the edge

453
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 1: and brings them back into the middle. It's huge mirrors.

454
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: Me don't recognis what else? See the stranger with blue

455
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: on his hands, Brother, I'm no that man. Raffles and

456
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 1: rolls bes. You hold on to ju need acan mo.

457
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 3: Fien treat raffles and roll bes refels and rules, beats

458
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 3: you hold on to.

459
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: You need.

460
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 5: You continue to do that. Mm hmmm, yeah, you continue

461
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 5: to do the retreats. You mentioned also that that great

462
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 5: song with Beth Nielson Chapman where you sat around with

463
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 5: was it mostly wives?

464
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: We sat around with w yes by spouses EOD wives

465
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: talking about what it's like to be married to a

466
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: bomb expert And.

467
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 5: Oh, I didn't know that they were all EOD.

468
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know.

469
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 5: It's so kind of a specific world within a world.

470
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, the high risk. It's a very high risk job

471
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: in all branches of the military explosive ordinance disposal. And

472
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: being married to bomb expert whose job every day is

473
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: to dismantle bombs built to kill them, that's just a

474
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: crazy marriage to me. That's just that's the most intensity

475
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: I've ever heard. It sounds like it sounds like a

476
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: pressure cooker every single day. And they're young people, and

477
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 1: they have kids and oh my goodness, and their husbands

478
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: come home different. They come home eventually, and they come

479
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: home different. And so that led to this notion that

480
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,719
Speaker 1: there's a war after the war and we don't really

481
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: talk about it. And so that's the type the song.

482
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: I think you're referencing the war, the war.

483
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 5: The war after the war is something that everyone in

484
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 5: that room could identify with, right because the struggles of

485
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 5: transition back and how you reintegrate back to your life

486
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 5: and back to your kids and your wife or your

487
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 5: husband or your spouse and your work. How is that

488
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 5: taking back to some of your other travels. I mean,

489
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 5: you've traveled in so many countries marry and played in

490
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 5: every state and you connect with people, they connect with you,

491
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 5: they come to your shows. They also talk with you

492
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 5: and you talk with them and you listen, tell me

493
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 5: about some of the stuff with rifles and rosary beads,

494
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 5: specifically that veteran military spouse community. What comes to mind

495
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 5: when you think about playing those live and talking with

496
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 5: the military families during those gigs.

497
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I was in Texas last week. We

498
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: played outside of Wimberley, a little festival at a Texas

499
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: roadhouse on air condition ninety eight degrees, full on Texas

500
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: kind of thing, And after we played, women came up

501
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: to the table in tears and wanted to hug me

502
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: and she said, the war, after the war, that's me.

503
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: I get those almost every single night when I play

504
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: the songs from Rifles and Rosarypies. There's people in the

505
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: audience who have lived it. And what happens I think

506
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: is cathartic. On the surface, if you're standing there watching it,

507
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: it looks like there's sorrow, like it looks sad, But

508
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: I think it's catharsis. I think it helps people to

509
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: not feel alone, to help people to know that they're

510
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: going through something a lot of other people are going

511
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: through and they're not singled out. It's not unique to them,

512
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: and they're not alone. They may feel alone and they

513
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: may not even have anybody to talk to, but they're

514
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: not alone. And all they got to do is start

515
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: talking about this stuff and they'll find their community of

516
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: other people. It's the secrecy, secrecy in silence that kills us.

517
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: So I think of it as a catharsis and aha,

518
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: and like, well, maybe I can talk about this. I

519
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: think there's hope in it. But if you were to

520
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: look at it and not know all that. It looks

521
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: like an interaction of sadness, but it's not. It's transformative.

522
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 5: That transformation can save lives. It sounds kind of a

523
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 5: you know, it sounds out there, of course, to say

524
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 5: that a song saves a life. Okay here, I'm actually

525
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 5: sitting in the intensive care unit right now. Is a

526
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 5: song going to save a life today? No, but it's

527
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 5: going to save and restore and bring hope and change

528
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 5: lives and save lives over time. What you've been able

529
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 5: to do with this collection, with your albums and with

530
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 5: your fans is really I was getting at before, not

531
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 5: only the veteran community, right, this all began years ago.

532
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 5: So that's a powerful thing. It is to save other lives.

533
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: It is, and I think it's connected to purpose. And

534
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: I honestly have a theory that the ancients knew this.

535
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: I think with the advent of the music business and

536
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: the monetization of music as a product, we've collectively forgotten

537
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: what music is for. I think the gods gave us

538
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: music so we don't have to be alone. That's what

539
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: harmony is is in harmony together. And I think that

540
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: the ancient people's and not that long ago, knew that

541
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: we sing together to bring people home. And what are

542
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: soldiers struggling with? The inability to come all the way home?

543
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: They get here physically, but emotionally and spiritually, they can't

544
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: find their way home. And this is something that music

545
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: can expedite. And I've seen it in real time. And

546
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, listeners may not know this,

547
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: but we've lost more of our military to suicide than

548
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: we did in the twenty odd years that they were

549
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: fighting in Afghanistan and in Iraq. And if we have

550
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: something that can help them come home and find peace,

551
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: I think we should all be engaging in that and

552
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: using that as a tool to help them come home.

553
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: They served us, We got to serve them. That's how

554
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: I see it.

555
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 5: You know.

556
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: I was in Austin, like I said, outside of Wimberley,

557
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 1: and we stayed in Austin last week and there's a

558
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: statue of a homeless veteran on the walk by the

559
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 1: river and soldiers have put their dog tags on it.

560
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: So much homelessness and suffering and suicide and pain in

561
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: the community that was of service.

562
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 5: Tell me, Mary, there's a lot of service going on

563
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 5: in your years of songwriting and connecting with people indirectly. Indirectly,

564
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 5: you have been saving people along the way and really

565
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 5: giving them an opportunity to change or to heal, not

566
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 5: just with this innovative, collaborative approach where you write with people,

567
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 5: but obviously your your story that resonates.

568
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 1: That's why I talk about it once. I talk about

569
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: adoption as traumas. I talk about recovery from from alcohol

570
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: and drug addiction and the possibilities that opens for people.

571
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: After you get sobered, you can live the life that

572
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 1: you were put here to live. You don't have to

573
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 1: suffer from an unlived life, your whole life.

574
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, back to that strange fire moment. Yeah, you're from

575
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 5: a military family. Yeah, and I don't think a lot

576
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 5: of people know that.

577
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, my dad served in Korea, and in the last

578
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: days of his life, when when his brain was not

579
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: functioning properly at all anymore, he kept thinking he was

580
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 1: testifying in some kind of military tribunal. He never talked

581
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: about being in Korea. He was in intelligence and he

582
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: just kept his in his you know, assisted living, saying

583
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: I need I need a yellow pad and a paper,

584
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: and you give it to him and he'd sir, No, sir,

585
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: I cannot speak to that, sir like he was. He

586
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: was a soldier. Again. It brought pears to my eyes.

587
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: He never talked about it. The only thing I knew

588
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: about my father's military service was that he wouldn't allow

589
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: guns in our house.

590
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 5: Your mom as a spouse, when you thought when you

591
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 5: wrote that song with Beth, in a sense, your mom

592
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 5: was one of those women.

593
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 1: And I didn't know it. Yeah, So much of this

594
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: is mysterious, like you're doing something that has connections that

595
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: are real and you don't see him until after. It's

596
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:40,760
Speaker 1: so mysterious.

597
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 5: Your dad, I mean, there's a I encourage please people

598
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 5: read this amazing book. You talk about alcoholism and you

599
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 5: talk about your dad, and this is a whole conversation

600
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 5: in and of itself. But to what extent do you

601
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 5: if you look back, I mean, is there a connection

602
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 5: there to his service? And I think so some of

603
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 5: his own medication, I think so.

604
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: I think he experienced some kind of trauma, Yeah, and

605
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: it damaged him. I do I believe that.

606
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, because Mary, I mean you mentioned something. I think

607
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 5: this was earlier in the book. You talk about the

608
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 5: Vietnam War and you talk about your cousin Philip.

609
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, Philip died young in Vietnam.

610
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 5: He was twenty three Army KIA. You talk about the

611
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 5: Vietnam War and I remember, you know, I'm a little

612
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 5: younger than you, but I remember Walter Cronkite, and he

613
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 5: spanned a couple, you know, several decades, and I can

614
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,399
Speaker 5: hear that as well. And then you talk about your parents' war,

615
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 5: and then you talk about your own war with your dad. Yeah,

616
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 5: which is heavy stuff obviously, but that time in your life,

617
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 5: even though it was so hard and you left home early,

618
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 5: there was something really powerful that gave you the tools

619
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 5: later in life. I always think back to that. I

620
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 5: always wonder, you know, there's a power, There's something that

621
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 5: was in there that gave you the ability. It wasn't

622
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 5: just being pulled over by that cop.

623
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 6: You know.

624
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,399
Speaker 1: I wish I could bottle it. I wish I could

625
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: name it, even Like, why do some people get arrested

626
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: for drunk driving and immediately when they get out of

627
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: jail start drinking again. Why do some people get sober

628
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: and some people just can't? You know? Why did some

629
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: people have this weird tenacity to go through being on

630
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 1: stage and knowing you suck, and knowing there's no way

631
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: to get better at it. You can't get better in

632
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,479
Speaker 1: your living room. You got to do it in front

633
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: of people and work through the stage. Fright, Why would

634
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: I stick with it and others be unable? I don't

635
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: know what that is. I think it's constitutional. I think

636
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: I maybe have some just innate gifts that allowed me

637
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,760
Speaker 1: to keep going and to get sober. But I also

638
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,879
Speaker 1: think it's grace. I think there's some unmerited gift in

639
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: that that you don't deserve. That there's the notion of grace,

640
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: amazing grace saved a wretch like me. I mean, I

641
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: relate to that. I was a wretch. So it's ineffable

642
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 1: in so many ways. And there's no way to talk

643
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: about it without going into spiritual language, which becomes more

644
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 1: and more ethereal and starts to sound like some sort

645
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: of a religious pitch, and it's really not. It's quite practical,

646
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 1: and there's no theology behind it. There's just there's mystery.

647
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 5: There's nothing wrong with that, I know. Yeah. I mean,

648
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 5: you mentioned to Amy Ray, who was gosh one of

649
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 5: my musical heroes. Me too. You said being terrified as

650
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 5: part of the agreement, Amy, you know, and I just

651
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 5: that hit me. I was actually what was I I

652
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 5: was doing the dishes the other day, you remember, or

653
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,720
Speaker 5: what you're doing sometimes when something somebody says something so prolific. Anyway,

654
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 5: and then you went on to say that if going

655
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 5: forward is the goal, fear is going to be the emotion.

656
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 5: So I think that connects to what you're saying, Mary,

657
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,879
Speaker 5: is that there's not without trepidation. There's fear here and

658
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 5: there's there's there's risks and it's not you know, I

659
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 5: have to say, there's there's a lot that connects to

660
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 5: service our service members. You're serving in a different way

661
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 5: and hats off. You know, behind you is that beautiful flag.

662
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 5: I'm seeing two things right now. I'm seeing a proud

663
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 5: military family member and a proud person that works with veterans.

664
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 5: And I'm seeing pride because I know Pride Month is

665
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 5: coming up. Yeah, absolutely, happy early Pride.

666
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, that's another thing I need to talk

667
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 1: about and not not not be in the shadows about it.

668
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: You know, I'm a I'm a i'm a i'm a

669
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,399
Speaker 1: gay woman, and i'm i'm i'm an advocate for LGBTQ.

670
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 1: People and all that I think we're asking for as

671
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 1: respect and dignity. Uh and uh, you know, permission to

672
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: live our lives without being assaulted or ridiculous laws being

673
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: passed against our personhood. And you see a Ukrainian flag too,

674
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: I'm I'm definitely concerned what's going on over there in

675
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: awe of the courage of those people, uh, and the

676
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: absolute tenacity and commitment to their democracy. I think Americans

677
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: can learn a lot if we watch closely. What they're

678
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 1: doing to save their democracy is astonishing. Uh and I

679
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: fully support their effort.

680
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 5: Yeah.

681
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, flags are powerful symbols, and yeah, you can

682
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: you can definitely make a statement with the flag.

683
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 5: You know, my daughter actually is fourteen and she I

684
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 5: didn't know that the Pride flag was. I think it

685
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 5: was in the seventies that it started to be more

686
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 5: of a part of our culture. But things have really

687
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 5: changed since that time. Is over fifty years, Oh my god,

688
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 5: so much. So. You're right, there's been some really amazing

689
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 5: advancements in the openness and the understanding is probably light

690
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,280
Speaker 5: years than it was when you started coming of age.

691
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah.

692
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 5: But at the same time, it's not going away, and

693
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 5: we know that there's a lot of lack of understanding.

694
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 5: How does that connect to your writing? If anything.

695
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: What's interesting to me is that when you go into

696
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 1: music and you start to take it seriously, and then

697
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 1: you take the stage and you start building a career,

698
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 1: you don't choose your fans, they choose you. And I figured,

699
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,919
Speaker 1: you know, I probably would have a fan base that

700
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 1: was more or less predominantly gay lesbian, and that's just

701
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: not true. It's not my base at all. I connect

702
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: deeply with heterosexual men who are a lot like me.

703
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 1: My fan base looks more like a Guy Clark fan

704
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: base or townsman Zant fan base, or you know, Chris

705
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: Christofferson or the John Prime.

706
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 5: It's those guys.

707
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's those guys. Those guys. I'm kindred with them,

708
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 1: and my musical development was deeply influenced by them. And

709
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: the people who come to see me are people who

710
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 1: would go to those shows. So it really, weirdly doesn't

711
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 1: have a lot to do with music for me.

712
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 5: I don't There shouldn't be an expectation that it does.

713
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: You know, I'm the one who had it. Actually, I

714
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,399
Speaker 1: thought that's what it would be, but it's not. And

715
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: I'm just grateful that I have people that come. Everybody's welcome,

716
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: you know, if you can relate to what I'm doing,

717
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to have you there. Uh And and

718
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 1: it's really a uh, a diverse group of people that

719
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 1: that come in. Uh And I don't you know, I

720
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 1: don't hide who I am. But I also that's that's

721
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 1: not the nature of my songs. I don't. I don't

722
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: sing about being gay. I don't. I don't know how

723
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 1: to write songs about that. I write songs about being

724
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: a human.

725
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, so so beautifully said, and so and so real.

726
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 5: I mean, you know what's interesting is that in a sense,

727
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 5: you become an allies or you not an ally. You

728
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 5: become a conduit for all types to really, you know,

729
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 5: if there was ever a connection. It's really, like you said,

730
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 5: those guys that may normally, you know, they may listen

731
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 5: to Guy Clark and others and John Prian, but now

732
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 5: they're you know, part of the whole family. And it's

733
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 5: a great thing.

734
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 6: You know.

735
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 5: It's interesting. Like I don't have a question here, but

736
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 5: I when I was in college, it was nineteen eighty

737
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 5: nine and I was in Burlington, Vermont. I remember seeing

738
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 5: the Indigo Girls. We went, we heard about there's such

739
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 5: a buzz around that time, obviously, right, and here I am,

740
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:16,720
Speaker 5: you know, straight dude, you know, eighteen years old. Mostly women.

741
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 5: I think there was probably like eighty percent women in

742
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 5: the audience. I'm a songwriter as well, I'm a musician.

743
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 5: That was transformative for me. I mean, I I I'm

744
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 5: scredible time.

745
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: It was incredible time.

746
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 5: I play it for my kids. You know, it's I

747
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 5: just the other day I was like, you know the

748
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 5: song secure Yourself to Heaven, Secure Yourself. I think I

749
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,399
Speaker 5: was actually when I was on the one of those

750
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 5: walks when I was listening to your book. It probably

751
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 5: triggered because you know, the Indego girls you talked about.

752
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 5: So I put it on Spotify and I was just

753
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:44,359
Speaker 5: sat there.

754
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, so great.

755
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 5: And there are harmonies and just so what they you

756
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 5: know what they did, as you said, I think to

757
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 5: Amy in your interview something about like blasting open the

758
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 5: door for other people.

759
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: They did. They kicked there was a cultural moment. Their

760
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 1: music came ahead of the changes that that we were

761
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 1: about to go through. They blasted down the door. And

762
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 1: Amy shocked me when she said, but we hated ourselves

763
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: and we were in the closet. Like it didn't matter,

764
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 1: did it. It happened anyway because the music, again is

765
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,800
Speaker 1: always a music and song is always ahead of the songwriter.

766
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: There's a wisdom in the art form that transcends the individuals.

767
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: And so when you know, when when like when you

768
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: reference that I've saved lives with this practice, I would

769
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,399
Speaker 1: push back a little and say, well, I was a

770
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 1: midwife in the process of salvation, but music and song

771
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: saved the lives.

772
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, a midwife, You were the mid songwriter?

773
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: Yes, that like that because it's not you to me.

774
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 1: Anybody who understands the art firm can do it, can

775
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: bear witness and help expedite that kind of experience that

776
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:09,919
Speaker 1: pulls somebody from the edge back in.

777
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 5: Well you, what did you say? Don't leave music and

778
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,359
Speaker 5: songwriting up to the professionals, right? I love that?

779
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 1: Well, And what I'm saying there is that if all

780
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: we focus on is monetization and bottom line and turn

781
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: it into McDonald's where everybody's having McNuggets, the experience that

782
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: I describe in the book doesn't happen because it's a

783
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 1: product to be sold more than more than the mystery

784
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: to be approached.

785
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 5: With respect and more than the process.

786
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:44,760
Speaker 1: M h. Yeah.

787
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,719
Speaker 5: And that gets to the collaborative model, because you know

788
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 5: with Dardin Smith and others, we've you know, work with

789
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,760
Speaker 5: You did this amazing job with us with the Frontline

790
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 5: songs and and and all the stuff you do with

791
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,919
Speaker 5: with with veterans. It's you can write one on one

792
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 5: with somebody which is beautiful, like you did with Joe right,

793
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 5: Joe Costello and others, And there's a to me, there's

794
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 5: a certain there's a bond there that you can create

795
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 5: and you can well, let me ask you, what's the

796
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 5: difference Mary, when you are one to one with anybody,

797
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 5: whether they're you know, going through any type of trauma

798
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 5: and you versus that group and that cohesion.

799
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: You know, the group is there to witness what happened

800
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: one on one in the workshops. So one on one

801
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 1: you create trust and you bear witness in non judgment,

802
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: and you take their story and turn it into their song,

803
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 1: and the group then is the witness and the writing

804
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: of the song is only fifty percent of the deal

805
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: that causes transformation. Then you have to bring it to

806
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 1: a group of witnesses who then bear witness and see

807
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: the inside of that person that you've written with, and

808
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: the witnesses then experience empathy and embrace that person, and

809
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 1: they are brought to a new place of self acceptance,

810
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 1: an understanding of their own humanity, that that that that

811
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: that they're not different than everyone else.

812
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,360
Speaker 5: I'm like you, brother, Yeah, me too, man you sister,

813
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 5: me too?

814
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 1: Man?

815
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 5: Yeah. Mary, You've been so gracious. You're on the road,

816
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 5: You're doing a lot of things. What's next for you?

817
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 5: What's what's uh? What's hot on Mary's mind? Now?

818
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:32,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're hitting the road. I got a new record

819
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: coming out June third, and so I've got tour dates

820
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: and tour dates and tour dates, and it's an exciting time.

821
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 1: Here we go again. Record number eleven is going eleven

822
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: to the world.

823
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 5: Yes, I will not make a spinal tap reference, I promise,

824
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 5: but eleven beautiful. So we heard some of the music,

825
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 5: it's great. What do you excite? Is there a theme

826
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 5: to any of this album or is it sort of

827
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:58,720
Speaker 5: purely old school a bunch of great songs.

828
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 1: Well, what what we've been through in the pandemic has

829
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: made its appearance there for sure. Yea, and love the

830
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 1: importance of love and the intensity of what we've all

831
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,919
Speaker 1: been through. You know, we we've all lost a lot

832
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 1: of people. The numbers are staggering, and so there's grief

833
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: and there's loss and there's love, and so that's the

834
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 1: nature of it.

835
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 5: And how can how can how can we all really

836
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 5: identify as an understatement and how can we heal with

837
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 5: some of that? As you're you know, you're the spiritual leader, Mary,

838
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 5: You're you're sort of helping us get through that every day.

839
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 5: So we can't wait to hear the all the whole album.

840
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,359
Speaker 5: Thank you, Mary, Thank you so much for your time

841
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 5: and for all you do and for your you know

842
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 5: you're serving those who served and many others.

843
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: So thank you, Thank you, Ron, thank you, Lucy. Appreciate

844
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:54,800
Speaker 1: y'all doing this. Take care of y'all.

845
00:50:55,239 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 6: It's dug enough to see dogging enough to sease s.

846
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 1: That ig love, to see the.

847
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 6: Light in an ocean black, indeed.

848
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,320
Speaker 1: In the middle of the night.

849
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 4: As a hold on till you're love, like those lights

850
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 4: from up a block.

851
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 6: I've drifted out, so fall it's talking enought to see

852
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 6: the sun. I've been carried out, so fall it's talking

853
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 6: enough to see.

854
00:51:56,719 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 5: Sum Thank you to our guest Mary Gachet, for your talents,

855
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:06,720
Speaker 5: your support and service over the years. For so many

856
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 5: Mary's books, Saved by a Song is one you should

857
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 5: really read or listen to on Audible. I listened to

858
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 5: Mary's book and was entrance with not only the storyteller

859
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 5: coming from her own voice, but the fact that each

860
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 5: chapter is punctuated by a unique song. These songs are

861
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 5: really chapters of her life with a common thread of

862
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 5: resilience and recovery. And of course check out the new

863
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,760
Speaker 5: album dark Enough to See the Stars, which is available

864
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 5: right now. Speaking of songwriting with Soldiers, if you've not

865
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 5: listened already, we have an episode called Warrior Healer that

866
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Speaker 5: was released February seventeenth, twenty twenty, that highlights a song

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Speaker 5: co written by one of our veteran alumni at Homebase

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Speaker 5: Air Force veteran Blair Morin and James House. So lastly,

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Speaker 5: I have two podcasts to recommend with Mary Gachet we

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Speaker 5: met in twenty eighteen on a podcast I was co

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Speaker 5: hosting called Above the Basement. If you're interested in a

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Speaker 5: show that covers the lives and stories of musicians, check

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00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,240
Speaker 5: out the show, produced and hosted by my Friend Chuck Clow,

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Speaker 5: which has over two hundred episodes in the vault. The

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Speaker 5: episode we refer to in today's conversation is number eighty

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00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 5: one in February twenty eighteen. Also be sure to check

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Speaker 5: out Mary's conversation on the November twenty twenty one episode

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Speaker 5: of Rick Rubin and Malcolm Gladwell's podcast Broken Record. Home

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Speaker 5: Based Nation is the official podcast for the Home Based

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00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 5: Program for veterans and military families. Follow Home Based on

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00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 5: social media. At Home Based Program, please listen and follow

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00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 5: us on Apple, iHeart, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 5: This episode was produced, edited and engineered by Lucy Little.

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Speaker 5: I'm Ron Hirschberg. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see

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Speaker 5: you next time.