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Speaker 1: One of the great pleasures of doing sound, Light and

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Speaker 1: Frequency is that no two episodes are ever alike. We

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Speaker 1: go where the stories go. Sometimes that means a deep

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Speaker 1: dive into a movie or a TV series, and sometimes

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Speaker 1: it means discovering halfway through our preparation that the episode

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Speaker 1: that we thought we were going to do has quietly

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Speaker 1: turned into something else. Now, the good news is that

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Speaker 1: we're constantly learning as we're doing this. Every time we

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Speaker 1: put one of these episodes together, we find new connections

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Speaker 1: between films and TV, but also UFO cases and UAP history,

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Speaker 1: government secrecy, cultural memory, and all the weird little places

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Speaker 1: that those things intersect. Now, Originally we thought that we

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Speaker 1: might do an entire episode today about alien abductions and

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Speaker 1: how they've been treated in movies and television. But once

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Speaker 1: we started laying that one out, it became obvious that's

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Speaker 1: not really an episode. It was more like a graduate seminar.

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Speaker 1: People have written entire books about this, So we decided

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Speaker 1: we might narrow our focus and ask a better question. So,

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Speaker 1: what happens if we take two of the most famous

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Speaker 1: abduction cases in history and lay them out chronologically and

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Speaker 1: then look at them through the POV of Hollywood, and

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Speaker 1: that is what brought us to the Betty and Barney

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Speaker 1: Hill case from nineteen sixty one and the Travis Walton

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Speaker 1: case from nineteen seventy five, because these are two of

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Speaker 1: the best known cases of alien abduction in American culture,

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Speaker 1: probably the two best known. There are also two cases

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Speaker 1: that have compelled me, both personally and professionally for most

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Speaker 1: of my life. Honestly to the point where to say

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Speaker 1: that I was interested in them doesn't really do justice.

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Speaker 1: Obsession is probably a better and more accurate way to

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Speaker 1: put it. I've written about the Hills, I've dramatized them.

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Speaker 1: My wife Jackie, and I have even developed their story

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Speaker 1: as both a feature film and a limited TV series.

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Speaker 1: I've also studied Travis Walton's case for decades, going back

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Speaker 1: to actually covering it when I was a young radio

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Speaker 1: guy in Eugene, Oregon. A few years ago. I even

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Speaker 1: appeared as an on camera subject matter expert on the

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Speaker 1: Discovery Channel when they did documentaries on both cases. And

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Speaker 1: you know what I learned is, even after two separate

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Speaker 1: two hour documentaries, there were still important pieces of those

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Speaker 1: stories that never got explored, mainly because the executives at

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Speaker 1: the network said that they didn't really belong in there.

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Speaker 1: They were wrong. In today's episode, we are going to

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Speaker 1: ask what was happening in film and television when Betty

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Speaker 1: and Barney and Travis Walton were claiming what had happened

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Speaker 1: to them? And the one question we keep coming back

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Speaker 1: to on sound, light and Frequency is this this Hollywood

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Speaker 1: simply reflect the UFO phenomenon or does it help shape

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Speaker 1: the way that we experience and remember it, Which brings

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Speaker 1: me to another thing about our show, the detours. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: these detours look like we're wandering off the road, but

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Speaker 1: more often than not, they bring us back to the

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Speaker 1: subject in an even more interesting direction. Today, we're just

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Speaker 1: going to start with one of those detours because we

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Speaker 1: like where it takes us. And so the detour is this.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever found yourself comparing notes with friends about

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Speaker 1: where you were when some huge event occurs? People have

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Speaker 1: been doing that for generations. I remember my grandparents used

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Speaker 1: to talk about what they were doing when Pearl Harbor happened.

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Speaker 1: These moments become personal timestamps for us. They're not just

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Speaker 1: history anymore. They become part of your own story. So,

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Speaker 1: now as I bring in my co host, Brent Friedman

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Speaker 1: from Washington State. Brent, I'm just going to go out

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Speaker 1: on a limb here and say that neither of us

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Speaker 1: have a Pearl Harbor memory to start with, because I

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Speaker 1: don't think we were alive.

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Speaker 2: I was definitely not alive. I thought you were alive

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Speaker 2: though at the time.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much for that. Thank you very much. Good.

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Speaker 1: I gave you one there. Listen. The first historical memory

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Speaker 1: that I think we could talk about would be the

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Speaker 1: JFK assassination. Let's do a lightning round of these big ones,

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Speaker 1: because they're going to take us someplace interesting, So I'll

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Speaker 1: give you JFK Go barely conscious. That's exactly right. That's

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Speaker 1: all I was at the time. I was, I believe,

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Speaker 1: a fourth grader, and I remember sitting at lunch when

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Speaker 1: my teacher, Missus Braden, who was a tough task master

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Speaker 1: that always made us eat our food, did not make

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Speaker 1: us eat the broccoli they served that day, and instead

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Speaker 1: she sat at the table and cry. So that's what

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Speaker 1: I was doing on that day.

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Speaker 3: That's a stark memory.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. They rolled a TV set in and everything, and

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Speaker 1: we watched Missus Braden cry and then they let us

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Speaker 1: go home early and then we watched our parents cry.

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Speaker 1: So that was JFK. I guess the other big one though,

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Speaker 1: after that, that you probably do have a conscious memory of,

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Speaker 1: would be what you were doing when you learned about

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Speaker 1: John Lennon's murder in New York City in nineteen eighty.

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Speaker 3: So I heard about that.

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Speaker 2: I was in high school at the time, and I

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Speaker 2: remember being out in kind of the quad area of

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Speaker 2: the school and seeing people all huddling together like wildfire.

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Speaker 2: The news spread across the lawns. Someone had heard it,

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Speaker 2: and people were telling each other, and I remember being

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Speaker 2: at the far end of that wave, going what is

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Speaker 2: everyone talking about? When it got to me, I didn't

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Speaker 2: think it was real. And then I started seeing around

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Speaker 2: me some people crying, and it suddenly sunk in and

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Speaker 2: I felt sick to my stomach. It just didn't make

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Speaker 2: any sense. It was of course, it raised that question,

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Speaker 2: why would someone kill John Lennon.

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Speaker 1: I still ask myself that. Of course, I'm a few

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Speaker 1: years older than you. So I actually was working. I

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Speaker 1: had just started working at CNN as the Los Angeles correspondent,

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Speaker 1: so I wasn't covering the main story, which was being

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Speaker 1: covered by the other some other network people but in

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles, I think they sent me out to talk

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Speaker 1: to people at a high school, so I could have

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Speaker 1: been the guy interviewing people at your high school about

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Speaker 1: what they thought. And I have one interesting memory though.

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Speaker 1: I called my brother as soon as I heard the

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Speaker 1: news that the night before when it happened. I said, Alan,

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Speaker 1: John Lennon's been murdered, and he goes, what's your problem? Was?

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Speaker 1: Are you calling me? And I was so offended I

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Speaker 1: just hung up right. The phone rings three minutes later

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Speaker 1: and he goes, I don't know what I was thinking.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I apologize. That's a huge thing. So in

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Speaker 1: other words, that delayed reaction where you're like, Okay, now

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Speaker 1: I get it, and that's what he had. And then,

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Speaker 1: of course, I guess after Lennon, another big one for

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Speaker 1: us would of course, what we were doing on that

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Speaker 1: terrible morning when the towers came down for nine to eleven.

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Speaker 2: So I remember getting a phone call from my mother

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Speaker 2: saying what's happening?

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Speaker 1: And I was.

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Speaker 3: Barely awake at the time.

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Speaker 2: I think I'd been working late the night before, and

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Speaker 2: I was like, I don't know what is happening, and

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Speaker 2: she'd go turn on the television, and so that was

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Speaker 2: my indoctrination into the whole situation, and again that it

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Speaker 2: seemed very surreal, like I felt, am I still dreaming?

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Speaker 2: Is this really happening? It seemed impossible. It still seems impossible, Listen.

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Speaker 2: I was out running. I was a runner at the time,

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Speaker 2: and I'd gone run in the morning with a friend

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Speaker 2: and my wife ended up driving down and finding us

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Speaker 2: and saying, get in the car. We got to go home.

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Speaker 2: We've got to be home. So she took me home

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Speaker 2: and dropped my friend off. But then what was historically

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Speaker 2: weird to me was that I had just been elected

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Speaker 2: chairman of the TV Academy and the Emmys were on

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Speaker 2: September sixteenth of that year, so of course nobody wanted

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Speaker 2: to go to Emmy's five days after nine to eleven.

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Speaker 2: So I ended up canceling them once. And I've told

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Speaker 2: this before, but we set them for October seventh, and

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Speaker 2: on that day we attacked Afghanistan, so we had to

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Speaker 2: cancel them a second time. So the Emmys went forty

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Speaker 2: nine years, never canceled before, and I had to oversee

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Speaker 2: that twice. Anyway, we probably do an episode about just

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Speaker 2: where we're one of those, we wouldn't have anything to

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Speaker 2: do with UFOs per se.

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Speaker 1: And that's kind of my point. We all remember what

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Speaker 1: we were doing for those huge events, and yet there

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Speaker 1: are some events that most people don't pay any attention

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Speaker 1: to that in the UFO world are kind of major events.

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Speaker 1: And I think the one that people now talk to

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Speaker 1: each other about a little bit was what they were doing,

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Speaker 1: what they were thinking when the whole UFO topic seemed

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Speaker 1: to change. And that was the night of December sixteenth,

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Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, when an online story was broken by The

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Speaker 1: New York Times, and the morning of December seventeenth, twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 1: when the actual paper came out and this story spread

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Speaker 1: like wildfire. Do you remember that day?

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Speaker 2: I do, And that was interesting because again I was

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Speaker 2: unaware of the breaking news, but my phone started blowing

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Speaker 2: up with texts from people saying did you see it?

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Speaker 3: Did you see it? What do you think? I'm like, what,

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Speaker 3: what's going on?

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Speaker 2: By the time I finally caught up, I remember sitting

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Speaker 2: down and just reading the whole article, just inhaling it,

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Speaker 2: and my thought was, Okay, so they've dropped this Knimtz

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Speaker 2: case on the world, and it felt like the first

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Speaker 2: drip of real closure, and I thought to myself, it's happening.

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Speaker 2: Here we go now looking back on it now, Literally

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Speaker 2: it was just a drip, but it felt like the

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Speaker 2: world was changing, or it had changed overnight when I

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Speaker 2: read that article, What about you?

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Speaker 3: Where were you in the worlds?

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Speaker 1: Sure did. What's interesting, My family and I have always

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Speaker 1: practiced what we call parachute vacations. We just drop into

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Speaker 1: a city that we know nothing about, and we get

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Speaker 1: on our cell phones since cell phones have been out,

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Speaker 1: and we start looking around to see what should we do,

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Speaker 1: Where can we go? That kind of thing. So we

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Speaker 1: had just air dropped into New Orleans at that time,

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Speaker 1: and so we were in New Orleans for a couple

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Speaker 1: of reasons, just because we'd never been there, and we

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Speaker 1: thought the kids would enjoy that, and they did. Everybody

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Speaker 1: was enjoying it. And that morning I was at the

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Speaker 1: World War Two Museum in New Orleans because my wife, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: and I have a World War Two movie called The

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Speaker 1: Last Battle that is supposed to be shooting this year,

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Speaker 1: and so we were doing some research for it, and

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Speaker 1: one of the big things of the New Orleans Museum

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Speaker 1: World War Two Museum is that they have a film

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Speaker 1: that is narrated and hosted by Tom Hanks. So that's

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Speaker 1: the big one. You crowd into the theater and you

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Speaker 1: watch Time Next talk about World War Two. And I

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Speaker 1: noticed that my phone had started ringing during this thing,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't be My family's looking at me like

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Speaker 1: glaring daggers at me. Is so are people in the theater,

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Speaker 1: Like turn your phone off? So I turned my phone

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Speaker 1: off right And then as I was leaving, I open

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Speaker 1: up my phone and I turn it on and the

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Speaker 1: first thing that pops up is that I have a

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Speaker 1: phone message and this listen. We're going to get into

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Speaker 1: this deeper as we go into the show because it

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Speaker 1: will pay off in other ways. But it's such a

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Speaker 1: crazy memory for me because it's December seventeenth, twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 1: and when I turn my phone on, there is a

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Speaker 1: message there from I feel like, if we can put

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Speaker 1: a drum roll into this, we should put we should

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Speaker 1: do that because the message is from Dan Akroyd.

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Speaker 2: Dan Akroyd of Ghostbusters and Live and many other amazing movies, of.

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Speaker 1: Course, is an extremely well known guy in the UFO world.

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Speaker 1: And just to clarify things, I had met him the

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Speaker 1: month before because, like I said, I was chairman of

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Speaker 1: the TV Academy, and so I went to all their events,

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Speaker 1: and I'd gone to the Emmy and induction of the

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Speaker 1: Hall of Fame for all the Saturday Night Live original characters,

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Speaker 1: and Dan was one of them. And what was interesting

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Speaker 1: is at that exact moment that night, he was standing

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Speaker 1: by himself. And that's kind of wild because all the

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Speaker 1: original cast was there, Jevy Chase was there, everybody. He

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Speaker 1: was wild and I was thrilled to be there. But

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Speaker 1: I said to my wife, I go, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: go talk to Akroyd about UFOs, And she's like, you

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Speaker 1: really think you should? And I went, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: probably not, But I went and I introduced myself and

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Speaker 1: I said that there were probably only two people in

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Speaker 1: this higher party that knew as much about UFOs as

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Speaker 1: he and I did. And he looks at me and

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Speaker 1: he goes, so, what do you think of the Todd

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Speaker 1: Ces case, which frankly is deep cut. That's a deep

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Speaker 1: cut of eufology, right, Okay. But I had just talked

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Speaker 1: to somebody on the phone about it, like a couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks previous, and I said, that's the guy who

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Speaker 1: disappeared and they couldn't find it, but they found his

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Speaker 1: shoes up in the tree. And I may even be

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Speaker 1: getting it wrong now, I had it more in my

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Speaker 1: wheelhouse at the time, right, and so that he was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this guy does know. So we started. We had a

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Speaker 1: really nice conversation, kind of an extended one at that moment,

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Speaker 1: and we were passing things back and forth at the time. Afterwards, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we had created emails and all that, and I had

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Speaker 1: a movie at the time about Betty and Barney Hill.

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Speaker 1: You see how this is all kind of how this

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Speaker 1: all going, you see behind this thing. So he and

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Speaker 1: I had been exchanging emails about the Betty and Barney

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Speaker 1: Hill script and he had asked to read it that

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Speaker 1: kind of thing. But that's not why. That's not what

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Speaker 1: he said per se in this phone call. And Brent,

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Speaker 1: I've never done this before because the truth is, I

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Speaker 1: don't save people's phone messages. But the truth is I

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Speaker 1: just could never get rid of Dan Aykroyd's phone message.

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Speaker 1: It just seems if there's a historical moment, I would

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Speaker 1: probably save it anyway, because hey, it's Dan Ackroyd. He

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Speaker 1: was a tremendous guy. I really liked him and do

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Speaker 1: like him, but I also thought, wow, this is for ufology.

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Speaker 1: This is the Pearl Harbor, the JFK, the lenin the

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Speaker 1: nine to eleven. This is a big deal, right, So.

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Speaker 3: You're talking about the Nimetz.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the New York about Nimets and the fact that

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Speaker 1: the government admits in this story that they have actually

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Speaker 1: been paying good money I think twenty two million dollars

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Speaker 1: in that case to study UFOs when they've been telling

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Speaker 1: everybody they don't. Okay, so tend not to play these things,

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Speaker 1: but it's been nine years, so I'm gonna play it.

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Speaker 1: I don't think Dan would probably mind. Let's hear it,

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Speaker 1: and so let's just play this thing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Front page, December seventeenth, New York Times, Real UFOs kentagone.

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Speaker 4: You have tried to know Ralph Bloomenthal wrote it. He

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Speaker 4: wrote that great piece of Vanity Fair about Bonnie and Betty.

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Speaker 4: Do you know Ralse He's great, just great. You should

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Speaker 4: get to know him. If you don't, don't know why

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Speaker 4: Spielberg wouldn't want to produce that big time. If you've

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Speaker 4: got the rights, you're very wise. There's Zach Royd here

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Speaker 4: of course, and John Simon, how old was he when

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Speaker 4: that'd be a good part for me? And then James

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Speaker 4: Peas was the you know you could get I don't know,

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Speaker 4: q Zach or Timberlake. He was the younger Air Force officer,

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Speaker 4: but that he kind of confided in. But here we are,

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Speaker 4: Front Page December seventeen to two seventeen. It's just wait,

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Speaker 4: what's coming? Man? Just wait? What's coming to this planet?

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Speaker 3: The boy?

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Speaker 4: All right? I had a fun start talking to him,

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Speaker 4: see each other again. I'll tell you about the car.

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Speaker 4: They may disappear in front of me.

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Speaker 3: By wow, just wow. I don't know else to respond.

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Speaker 1: I'm not even sure, you know, as we like to say,

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Speaker 1: sometimes there's a lot to unpack. There so many things.

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Speaker 1: First of all, by the way, I loved his enthusiasm

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Speaker 1: for the movie. There are a couple of things not

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Speaker 1: quite accurate in there for people who are Officionado's. He

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Speaker 1: was suggesting he might want to play the part of

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Speaker 1: doctor Benjamin Simon, who was the person who hypnotized Betty

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Speaker 1: and Barney and regressed them. And I believe the young

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Speaker 1: guy that he was talking about was at Peace Air

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Speaker 1: Force Base b EA sse but his name was I

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Speaker 1: had it on the tip of my tongue. I've lost

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Speaker 1: it myself right now anyway. But the Brent, the one

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Speaker 1: thought that I thought was holy crap. He ends by

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Speaker 1: saying a car that they made disappear in front of me.

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Speaker 1: What did you make of that one? Do you have

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Speaker 1: any clue on that?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I just know he knows how to

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Speaker 2: write a cliffhanger.

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Speaker 1: He sure does. Listen. I didn't know at the time.

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Speaker 1: It turns out, I can't say that he was confiding

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Speaker 1: a story that he'd never told before at that particular moment,

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Speaker 1: because this is twenty seventeen. I believe as early as

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Speaker 1: two thousand and two, in an interview, he had said

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Speaker 1: he was shooting a sci fi channel show called out

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Speaker 1: There in New York, and he had just interviewed Stephen Greer,

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Speaker 1: was about to interview Steve Bassett, and he went out

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Speaker 1: at forty second and eighth Street for a cigarette. This

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Speaker 1: is the story that apparently he told. He didn't tell

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Speaker 1: it to me, And he says he saw a black

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Speaker 1: Ford with two tall men. The plate looked pixelated to him,

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Speaker 1: and then this part he's just he took a call

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Speaker 1: from Britney Spears, who gets to say that. I'm excited

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Speaker 1: to say dan Akroyd called me. He's talking to Britney Spears, okay,

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Speaker 1: And he looks back and the car and the men

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Speaker 1: are gone within seconds, all right. And he goes back

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Speaker 1: inside and the producer of the show that he's doing

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Speaker 1: tells him his show has been canceled.

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Speaker 3: That's an eventful two minutes or whatever that was.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow, can he described these guys as men in

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Speaker 1: black kind of guys? Speculated the vehicle may have been cloaked,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, a lot of connections in there.

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Speaker 2: Okay, it seems dan Akroyd has hijacked our episode and

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Speaker 2: is trying to keep us from investigating Betty and Barney

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Speaker 2: Hill and Travis Walton.

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Speaker 1: But he's not going to get away with it. Listen,

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Speaker 1: the reason I had to play this is if not now,

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Speaker 1: when And also I would imagine about ninety nine point

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Speaker 1: nine percent of the people in our audience, whether they're

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Speaker 1: listening or viewing, have great affection for dan Akroyd and

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Speaker 1: who doesn't. Yeah, exactly. But in addition to affection respect

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Speaker 1: because he was outspoken on this topic before outspoken was acceptable.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right, very true.

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Speaker 1: It was true. It was fringe when he was doing

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Speaker 1: those things, and so good for him anyway. We're going

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Speaker 1: to unpack more of that in just a few minutes.

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Speaker 1: I'm Bryce's able. Sometimes there's a secret connection between the

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Speaker 1: UFO issue and Hollywood.

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Speaker 2: I'm Brent Friedman, and that's what we talk about on Sound,

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Speaker 2: Light and Frequency today.

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Speaker 1: We're asking if there's a feedback loop between movies and

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Speaker 1: TV and what's really going on, especially when it comes

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Speaker 1: to abductions.

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Speaker 2: We're going to break it all down on this episode

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Speaker 2: and we'll be right back back.

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Speaker 1: One of the things when we were trying to lay

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Speaker 1: this out, we thought we could make it based on

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Speaker 1: topics and that kind of thing. We thought that's going

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Speaker 1: to be confusing, that could be a little tough. So instead,

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Speaker 1: what we're going to do is walk through this storyline

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Speaker 1: that combines Betty and Barney and Travis, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to do it chronologically. And as we do this, I

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Speaker 1: think you'll see where there are some intersections that maybe

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Speaker 1: you didn't see coming. So let's talk Betty and Barney first,

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Speaker 1: because they kicked this thing off. The date that you

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Speaker 1: want to remember is September nineteenth, nineteen sixty one, and

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Speaker 1: that means that we are coming up on the sixty

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Speaker 1: fifth anniversary of Betty and Barney Hill abduction, and Brent

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Speaker 1: the thing that has always compelled me and why I

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Speaker 1: believe Betty and Barney are such an important story just

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Speaker 1: for ufology, but also just because they were the first,

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Speaker 1: and that's what makes it exciting. So many firsts. It

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Speaker 1: is a time where they were the first alien abduction

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Speaker 1: to ever be claimed in the United States. There had

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Speaker 1: been an abduction claim in nineteen fifty seven in Brazil

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Speaker 1: Antonio vs. Boaz, but we're not talking about We're talking

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Speaker 1: about Betty and Barney first one in the US. It

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Speaker 1: was the first reported case of missing time. It was

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Speaker 1: the first use of hypnotic regression to recover abduction memories.

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Speaker 1: It was the first public description of what we now

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Speaker 1: know is the Grays, and it was the first time

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Speaker 1: a couple that ever experienced a simultaneous abduction. So this

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Speaker 1: one had it all very compelling. Now, the thing about

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Speaker 1: it that I think Bear's emphasis at this point is

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Speaker 1: it's not like this was covered in the newspapers, all right.

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Speaker 1: September twenty first, nineteen sixty one is when it happened

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Speaker 1: to them, but it's not when it became public, which

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Speaker 1: we'll get to. But first let's talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about what happened to them. There's two parts to the

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Speaker 1: Betty and Barney story. It's like what they knew happened

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Speaker 1: to them when they came home that night, and then

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Speaker 1: there's a part that happens later when they have the

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Speaker 1: hypnotic progression. I realize you're not an obsessed, a hill

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Speaker 1: obsessive like myself. What do you remember about their story?

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Speaker 1: If you think about it, what's your takeaway?

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Speaker 3: It's funny.

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Speaker 2: I really didn't know much about the case until we

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Speaker 2: started writing Dark Skies, and that became the first actual

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Speaker 2: case that Lowengard went and investigated in our Dark Sky's pilot,

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Speaker 2: And it was through that research that I even came

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Speaker 2: to know about the case. I think that the big

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Speaker 2: takeaway for me was the concept of missing time, that

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Speaker 2: they both had this experience together, and that one of

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Speaker 2: the possible explanations was this idea of shared amnesia that

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Speaker 2: they had both forgotten. Was it two weeks or no,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, two hours of their lives?

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Speaker 1: I think we should actually go back to the beginning,

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Speaker 1: beginning then, because on September twenty first, nineteen sixty one,

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Speaker 1: September nineteenth, rather, I believe yees September nineteenth, Betty and

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Speaker 1: Barney had been married for a year. They're an interracial couple,

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Speaker 1: all right. Yes, Barney is a black man married to

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Speaker 1: a white woman in nineteen sixty one in New Hampshire

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Speaker 1: where there's not a lot of black people anyway, but

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Speaker 1: he was still involved with the NAACP. He had been married,

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Speaker 1: she had been married. Before their marriage is ended, they

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Speaker 1: got together, they got married. A year goes by. They're

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Speaker 1: living in New Hampshire and they decide they should have

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Speaker 1: a much delayed honeymoon, all right, So they go for

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Speaker 1: the weekend to Montreal. That's their plan to go to

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Speaker 1: Montreal and have a honeymoon. And they decide. While they're

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Speaker 1: in Montreal, they hear news that there's going to be

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Speaker 1: a weather disturbance. There might be some serious problems on

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Speaker 1: the way back, so they decide to leave home early.

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Speaker 1: So they're leaving the night of the nineteenth, of course,

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Speaker 1: and they stop and have something to eat on the

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Speaker 1: way down, and then they try to push on. They're

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Speaker 1: going to push on from ten o'clock on. They're going

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Speaker 1: to push on to home, and as they're driving along

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Speaker 1: near Indian Head in the White Mountains, they see something

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Speaker 1: and at first they think maybe it's a satellite, and

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Speaker 1: then they or it's just lights. And then Betty, I think,

430
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Speaker 1: is famously saying do satellites go backwards? Because this thing

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Speaker 1: isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing. And they

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Speaker 1: stop in the middle of the road because they want

433
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: to look at this thing, and they get out binoculars

434
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 1: that Barney had, and this is all conscious memory. None

435
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 1: of this is miss time yet this is what they're experiencing.

436
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: They see a flying saucer and it has a double

437
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: row of windows, so they're seeing this now. Barney with

438
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 1: his binoculars, puts it up and he's looking at this

439
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 1: double row of windows and he sees beings looking back

440
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: at him. Yes, okay, And that's even in our scene

441
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,679
Speaker 1: in Dark Skies where he says, I see beings looking

442
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,360
Speaker 1: back at me and it's crazy, Okay. Then they hear

443
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: a buzzing sound, beep beep. That's my impersonation of it.

444
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: I'm sure it was creepier and scarier, but that's where

445
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: the thing happens. Now They find themselves after this beeping

446
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: sound like thirty five miles away, I want to say,

447
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: and a couple of hours have gone on by have

448
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: gone hours, two hours of missing time. Think about that,

449
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 1: but they don't really. They're like, did we fall asleep?

450
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 1: They're just not quite sure what's gone on. So they

451
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: press on and they get back to their home in Portsmouth,

452
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: New Hampshire, and they get back later than they're comfortable with.

453
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 1: They thought that they would have been there earlier. And

454
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: they realize that Betty's new dress is torn. That's weird.

455
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,360
Speaker 1: They realize that Barney's brand new shoes are scuffed terribly

456
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 1: on the top of them. That's weird. They both feel

457
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: kind of clammy and violated. I believe. They take showers.

458
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 1: The next day, they get out a compass and go

459
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: over their car and over the trunk. The compass is

460
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: going wild, and there are marks half dollar sized round

461
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 1: spots on the trunk. The car clock and their own

462
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: watches have stopped. This is all what they're experiencing. They

463
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 1: try to do the responsible thing. They call the peace

464
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: Air Force base and report it and they I think

465
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: it's Henderson. It's a Henderson who takes their report young guy.

466
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 1: They also report it to the National Investigations Committee for

467
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 1: Aerial Phenomenon. So that basically is what happens. And over

468
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: the course of time after that, Betty is having dreams.

469
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: She's waking up in the middle of the night, and

470
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 1: her dreams are odd dreams, but they are basically describing

471
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 1: something that is a sort of riff on the abduction thing,

472
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: but their dreams. Yes, they put up with this for

473
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 1: a while. And in fact that the thing I always

474
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 1: found was profound is that Barney, who was a postal worker,

475
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: is so disturbed by whatever happened to them that he

476
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 1: ends up getting paid leave for his health well.

477
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 2: Quite a while, like I think months, almost yeah, yeah,

478
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 2: And I found it interesting too, and I think it's

479
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 2: a significant part of ultimately the story. And what then

480
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 2: finds its way into the movie was that Betty wrote

481
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 2: down all of her dreams, almost like in a dream

482
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 2: journal or something. So that was all something that was

483
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 2: being referenced later, and.

484
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: They drew pictures of what they saw separately and then

485
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 1: compared them. They were disturbed. They told, of course Betty's

486
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 1: sister about it, and so some people knew about it anyway.

487
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: So this goes on for a while, and we're going

488
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 1: to come back to another piece of that story. But

489
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 1: if you move forward in the actual key story, it's

490
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: February twenty second of nineteen sixty four, all right now

491
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,239
Speaker 1: that remember from September of sixty one to February of

492
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: that's a little over two years, two years and four

493
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: months or something like that. And at this point they

494
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: are so disturbed that they have sought help and they

495
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: have founded doctor Benjamin Simon, who is the guy that

496
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: Acroyd wanted to play in this movie I had written. Okay,

497
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: and they are hypnotized, and for people that have heard

498
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 1: the hypnosis tapes, they are harrowing. Barney is screaming, Betty

499
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 1: is crying, and they report a story that is now

500
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: pretty well known, which is their cargets stopped. The beings

501
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 1: walk them on to a landed craft. They get on.

502
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: They are and it's not the purpose of this show,

503
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: by the way, to go into the deep details. There

504
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: are books out and there are lots of documentaries things

505
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 1: like that for people that want to know more, but

506
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 1: in essence print they go on board the craft and

507
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: they're separated. Barney goes into one room, Betty goes into

508
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 1: another room. Barney is a little more constrained. He is,

509
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,479
Speaker 1: actually the joke is not a joke to him. He

510
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: has a rectal exam, he or some device of some kind.

511
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 1: He also has some device placed over his junk and

512
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: takes some kind of sample from that. Betty gets it

513
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 1: a little bit better, although in a frightening way. She

514
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: gets a needle that she describes as about yay long

515
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: put through her belly button, which one of these creatures,

516
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: these are the sort of the gray Light creatures, describes

517
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: as being a pregnancy test, which, frankly, they did start

518
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: doing pregnancy test am neocentesis through the belly, but not

519
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: till the seventies, so nobody he'd never heard of this.

520
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 2: A couple things to jump in here on a detail

521
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 2: that when we were researching this for this episode that

522
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 2: I wasn't aware of is I thought that Whitley Strieber

523
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 2: was the first one to ever have the rectal exam,

524
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 2: and it turns out no, it's Barney. Also, yes, they

525
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 2: put something on his junk and then he had genital

526
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: wartz yes for a while after that. So something happened

527
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 2: clearly to them physically, mentally, emotionally, and it's one of

528
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 2: the ironies that I find about the whole story is

529
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 2: their reluctance to talk about it because UFOs were taboo,

530
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,959
Speaker 2: and yet they're an interracial couple, right right, And somehow

531
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 2: UFOs were more taboo than being an interracial couple.

532
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: So true. And now is where we get into the sound,

533
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: light and frequency part of this little story, okay, because

534
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: over the years skeptics have bent over backwards to try

535
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 1: to figure out, how can we undermine this story, and

536
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: they've come up with one and it has been floated

537
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: several times over the years, and it goes back to

538
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: Outer Limits, the TV show that was the compatriot to

539
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: the Twilight Zone, only the Outer Limits had more aliens

540
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: and was less metaphoric and less preachy, but was about

541
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: scary monsters from outer space in many cases. Okay, and okay,

542
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: I said, February twenty second, sixty four is when they

543
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: first get regressed, and that goes on. But it was

544
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: February twenty second. I guess what happened, And this is

545
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: what people point out. On February tenth of sixty four,

546
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: which is twelve days earlier, Outer Limits airs a show

547
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: called The Balero Shield and the story tells something about

548
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: a power hungry woman who traps a benevolent non human

549
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: alien to steal his impenetrable force field. I tried to

550
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: watch it the other night for this. Okay, yes, there

551
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: is an alien that has some kind of wrap around eyes,

552
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: but doesn't look like any gray I've seen it pretty bad.

553
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: Have you ever tried to watch these Twilight Zones in

554
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: recent time Outer Limits? Yeah?

555
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 2: Yes, I think interestingly, Twilight Zone holds up a little

556
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 2: better because they were parables, and this felt like these

557
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 2: were trying to be like cutting edge science fiction of

558
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 2: the day. So yeah, particularly the alien part of this

559
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 2: did not age well. Look, I found the whole thing,

560
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: the whole story bizarre to begin with. It was interesting

561
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: to me that the alien was depicted as benevolent and

562
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 2: that the woman was the insane one, the one who

563
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 2: ruined everything, and that her whole goal was trying to

564
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: steal the alien technology because she was ambitious and she

565
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 2: wanted to give it to her husband so that he

566
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 2: could impress his father and make lots of money. And

567
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: that set all of the events into motion. In terms

568
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 2: of how the alien looked, I think if you showed

569
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: it to me, now and you said, what does this

570
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 2: look like, I'd say it looks like some sort of

571
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 2: nuclear bomb mute and it did not look at all

572
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: to me like an alien. And yet that's how it

573
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: was depicted at the time. And you mentioned the wrap

574
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 2: around eyes, and that's the connective tissue between the I

575
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 2: think what people point to is the connective tissue is

576
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: those wrap around eyes were part of how Betty and

577
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 2: Barney described the aliens that they saw.

578
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: So people are then trying to you know, the skeptics

579
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: are saying, see, they must have got that. And in fact,

580
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: just to complete the turn here, on February seventeenth, a

581
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: week after the Balero Shield aired, there was one air

582
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: called The Children of Spider County, which also has aliens

583
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: in it. And so the skeptics would like you to

584
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: believe that Barney and Betty somehow watched this Outer Limits,

585
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: which they deny having seen. But let's say that they

586
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: did and they didn't remember it, or their denial is wrong, whatever,

587
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: I guess the question would be. Brent, let me just

588
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: ask you this hypothetically. If I made you watch a

589
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: couple of movies about serial killers and some TV series

590
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: about serial killers, you think you'd go murder somebody. Do

591
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: you think you'd talk about murdering somebody that you hadn't

592
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: murdered while you were hypnotized.

593
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 2: Considering how many movies I've seen about people getting murdered,

594
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 2: I'm proud of the fact I have murdered no one.

595
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: Yet I'm even more proud.

596
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you, I know. But your point is well taken.

597
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 2: I think just because maybe you did see an episode

598
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 2: does not mean that in particular, I think the context

599
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 2: is important here. You're an interracial couple, You're trying to

600
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 2: fly below the radar. You're just trying to be happy

601
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 2: and in love your newlyweds. Why on earth would you

602
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 2: go and invent a story that brings so much negative

603
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 2: attention to you? It just makes no sense. And that

604
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 2: this would all possibly be spurred by consciously or subconsciously

605
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: seeing an Outer Limits episode. Think about how ridiculous that

606
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 2: sounds as I'm saying the.

607
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: Words, and yet people have literally tried to make that connection. Okay,

608
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: moving forward then, so we're just trying to say though

609
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: there's an interrelationship, or at least people have tried to

610
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 1: interrelate this. It's the UFO version of Chicken in the egg. Yes, right, okay,

611
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 1: So bouncing forward over a year, the Boston Traveler, which

612
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: is a newspaper in the Boston area, obviously, is the

613
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: first to ever report the Betty and Barney case. This

614
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: happens in October twenty fifth and twenty sixth of nineteen

615
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: sixty five. All right, Now, the guy who wrote those articles,

616
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 1: he's a guy named John Latrelle, and he was an investigative

617
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: reporter and a damn good one. He had won awards,

618
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 1: he had broken big stories, and he heard about the

619
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: Betty in Barney Hills story. He chased the story like

620
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: a good investigative reporter would, and they published that in

621
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 1: late nineteen sixty five. But guess what, he's the forgotten

622
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: man in this story, because what everybody else says is,

623
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: oh no, it's that book, the Interrupted Journey, that is

624
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: the one that's where their story went public. That happened

625
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: a full year later. So I think one of the

626
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: things that we can do here on this show is

627
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: pay service and tribute to John Lattrell because he's the

628
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: guy that broke the story. And in fact, my advocacy

629
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: of John Lttrell goes back to I wrote a series

630
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: of medium articles during the pandemic called the Lost Honeymoon

631
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: by sort of investigation in the Betty and Barney thing.

632
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 1: And the one thing I tried to do is write

633
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: the history and make it clear that John Lttrell did this.

634
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: And what's so interesting is because I started getting into that, Brent,

635
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: there is a historical marker in New Hampshire on the

636
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 1: Highway about Betty and Barney that I found had two

637
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: fact errors in it because of my research and the

638
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,359
Speaker 1: Highway Department after I told him, I said, we're going

639
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: to change the marker. Now I don't think they've changed

640
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,240
Speaker 1: it yet, but let me tell you what it does say.

641
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: It says Betty and Barney Hill Incident. On the night

642
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 1: of September nineteen to twenty, nineteen sixty one, Portsmouth, New

643
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: Hampshire couple Betty and Barney Hill experienced a close encounter

644
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 1: with an unidentified flying object and two hours of lost

645
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: time while driving south on Route three near Lincoln. They

646
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: filed an official Air Force Project Blue Book report of

647
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: our brightly lit cigar shaped craft the next day, but

648
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: were not public with their story until it was leaked

649
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: in The Boston Traveler in nineteen sixty five. This was

650
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 1: the first widely reported UF abduction report in the United States.

651
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: Here are the two factors. Fact are number one, the

652
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 1: idea that Betty and Barney Hill were not public with

653
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: their story. It's just not true. How else would Jonathan

654
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: Latrell have found it? Okay, they did not actively seek publicity,

655
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: but that the idea that they were not public with

656
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,720
Speaker 1: their story is something that people with an interest in

657
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 1: making Betty and Barney victims have conveniently ignored. But the

658
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 1: truth is they told their story to numerous individuals as

659
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 1: I would, frankly, if I'd been abducted, and if you'd

660
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,359
Speaker 1: been at you probably tell a few people about it.

661
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: They told friends, They told their family, They told some

662
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: of their neighbors. They had renters who were renting above them,

663
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: they told them. They told a whole bunch of their

664
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 1: church members where they were going to church about it.

665
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: They told co workers. Betty she was a caseworker for

666
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 1: the Welfare department, Barney was at the post office. They

667
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: told people about it. Plus they filed two reports as

668
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, the US Air Force and Nightcap. They

669
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: were certainly out there with their story. It was ripe

670
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: for the picking for a reporter. So it wasn't like,

671
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 1: as they said, they were not public with their story.

672
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: Define public, okay. In fact Air number two, it says

673
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 1: here their story was leaked in the Boston Traveler. The

674
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: Boston Traveler did not leak the story of Betty and

675
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: Barney Hill. The newspaper reported it. People leaked the newspapers.

676
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: They'll call up a reporter and say, hey, I got

677
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: some stuff that I'm going to leak to you. But

678
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: newspapers don't leak. That's not what reporters do. They report.

679
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 1: And there was nothing untoward about what this guy had done.

680
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: So anyway, I pointed that out to this state of

681
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 1: New Hampshire and they said they're going to change the

682
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: thing because of it. So I don't know, I feel done,

683
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 1: so thank you. There are so few things, and I

684
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: hope they do change it, because I do think those

685
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 1: two things are not accurate, and if we're going to

686
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 1: be transparent about things, we've got to be transparent about

687
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: Betty and Barney. And then, of course that takes us

688
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,919
Speaker 1: to the big book, The Interrupted Journey, which does come

689
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 1: out a year after Latrell's work in October of sixty six,

690
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: and it becomes the definitive public text of the case,

691
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: and it is based heavily on these hypnosis tapes and

692
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,399
Speaker 1: interviews with the two of them, so allowed to bring

693
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: this all together in October of sixty six. This is

694
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,720
Speaker 1: all happening, and this is important because the Interrupted Journey

695
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: is going to become optioned as a movie. So this

696
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: is all going to be part of that story and

697
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: it becomes a gigantic story in the United States. Not

698
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: because of that book. First, although the book was huge

699
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 1: because it was excerpted in Look magazine at the time,

700
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 1: right in October fourth, October eighteenth book Club. It was

701
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: in the magazine a board of Flying Saucer. I remember this,

702
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, print because my mother read

703
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,399
Speaker 1: them and she turned to me and she was like,

704
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 1: this is very strange because suddenly again this crossed over

705
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,839
Speaker 1: into the mainstream. Look and life couldn't be more mainstream,

706
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: right and now, because we're talking about media, this one's

707
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 1: kind of cool. Two months after those excerpts in Look

708
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 1: magazine and the book coming out, Barney Hill appears on

709
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: to tell the truth. This is a great moment in

710
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: media history. Yes, you were such a young pup, you

711
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 1: probably had no idea about the no idea. Here's how

712
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: the it's a game show. They had a celebrity panel

713
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:04,919
Speaker 1: and they would bring three people out, and they did

714
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: on this one. And in fact, if people want to

715
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: see it, you can go to hollywoodufos dot com, which

716
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: is our site, and you can go actually look at it.

717
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 1: But three guys come out. Another guy is black, another

718
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: guy is white, and all three of them go, my

719
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 1: name is Barney Hill. My name is Barney Hill. My

720
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: name is Barney Hill. So you got to three guys

721
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 1: stand of Barney Hill. The celebrity people ask them questions

722
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: and then they vote on who they think is Barney Hill.

723
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: And then at the end of it, the host says,

724
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: with a real Barney Hill, please stand up. Barney Hill

725
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: was picked. They said, we think he's Barney Hill. They

726
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,439
Speaker 1: got it right. The real Barney Hill stood up because

727
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 1: there was an authenticity to the guy.

728
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,720
Speaker 2: Talk about an interrupted journey. They went from being newlyweds

729
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 2: to having the most like you said, probably the seminal

730
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 2: abduction case at least in this country, happened to them

731
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 2: and play out and go over years. I think one

732
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: point I want to go back to for a second

733
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 2: and correct me if I'm wrong. But when you were

734
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 2: making the point that they shared the story with a

735
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 2: lot of people, the story still had a two.

736
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 3: Hour gap in it.

737
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 2: They remembered what had happened up until this missing time,

738
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 2: and they remembered what had happened after. But that was

739
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 2: the thing, the piece that It wasn't until the hypnotic

740
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 2: regressions years later that they started to really the whole

741
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:24,439
Speaker 2: story started to bloom as it were.

742
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: Well, this is another place where you got to give

743
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 1: Jonathan Latrell his props. Okay, Boston Traveler reporter Jonathan Latrell

744
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: got hold of the tapes or the transcript of the tape.

745
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: Now he knew about him, and they're in his report.

746
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: Oh somebody, if anybody leaked anything, it was the tapes

747
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: that were leaking, and it was who knows. I don't

748
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: think we know. I don't have a knowledge personally of

749
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: that right now, but I know that it's in the

750
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: Boston Traveler thing. So in fact, and like I said,

751
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: have you ever heard those tapes?

752
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 4: I have not.

753
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: They're frightening as all f I'm sure you're a fine actor,

754
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 1: having gone been a theater student and all that, you

755
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 1: couldn't have faked him. They're so good. Betty's hysterically crying,

756
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: He's screaming in fear. Whatever. Okay, so now we've walked

757
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: this through and here comes our pivot point that in

758
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,800
Speaker 1: this lovely little story that's going to pivot us into

759
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 1: the Travis Walton case. All right, to tell the truth

760
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 1: happens in December of sixty six. Okay, nine years later

761
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 1: they make a movie about it and air it. Okay.

762
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 1: The movie is called The UFO Incident. It's based on

763
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: optioning the book. So again Latrelle gets screwed. He should

764
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 1: have had he was the original guy. They should have

765
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,760
Speaker 1: optioned his book or somebody else should, I mean, his articles.

766
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,760
Speaker 1: But what's interesting about this is that Barney is played

767
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: by James Earl Jones, right, And James Earl Jones was

768
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 1: the guy that became fascinated with the case and fought

769
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 1: and he had to fight some people off to get

770
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: the rights to the book. He wanted to play Barney

771
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: Hill and so.

772
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 3: He does an amazing job.

773
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: He does, and Estill Parsons is Betty. And all I

774
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: would say about this is, Okay, they didn't have any

775
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: money for this thing. They had the rights everything inside

776
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 1: the ship is dark by design because they had a

777
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 1: pretty flensy set. The aliens look pretty bad, right, But

778
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: what's good, as you point out, is James Earl Jones

779
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: and is still Parsons are pretty good. Honestly. I watched

780
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,919
Speaker 1: it again a couple of nights ago, Brent. It could

781
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 1: be a stage play. Yes. To me.

782
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 2: The big takeaway was yes, as a riveting piece of

783
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 2: UFO cinema, it doesn't quite hold up. I think the

784
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 2: performances are the standouts here, But you tell me the

785
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 2: regression scenes, which are the heart and soul of the

786
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 2: whole movie, where they keep coming cutting in and out

787
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 2: of those as they're trying to tell the whole story.

788
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: They were using the transcripts from the actual regressions, right,

789
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 2: That's what was being re enacted, and those, like you said,

790
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: were quite harrowing, but quite well performed. Those performances were

791
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 2: very powerful. That's the reason I would recommend the movie.

792
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: And again, hollywoodufos dot com, we'll take you to a

793
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: link that allows you to watch it if you want.

794
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: But here's where it gets interesting, and I love this

795
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: little connection. The UFO Incident airs on NBC on October twentieth,

796
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five. It's a TV movie, it's not a feature. Now,

797
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy five, there are only three networks. There's

798
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: not even Fox. You have ABC, NBC, and CBS. So

799
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: when you're watching TV at night, back in nineteen seventy five, Brint,

800
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: it didn't have a lot of options. You really watched,

801
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: as I've always said, the least objectionable programming. You looked

802
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,399
Speaker 1: at the three things that were on, and the one

803
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: that sucked the least is what you watched. So even

804
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 1: something that people didn't like got a pretty healthy number.

805
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,879
Speaker 1: The number for something that was shunned by America would

806
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 1: still be bigger than most shows today. Okay, but this

807
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 1: was popular, so many Americans saw this movie on October

808
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 1: twentieth at nineteen seventy five. Guess what. Travis Walton is

809
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 1: abducted on November fifth, nineteen seventy five, and if you're

810
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: doing the math, that is two weeks later. Okay, Now

811
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 1: it raises questions because back then, to just refresh everybody's memory,

812
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: Travis Walton was a woodcutter, okay, and he was working

813
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: on a crew I believe of six people in the

814
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: Pache Sitgreaves National Forest near Hebrew, Arizona, and they would

815
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 1: go out and I believe they were thinning wood. And

816
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: one night on the way home, they see a reddish

817
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 1: light and they go over to investigate because they're in

818
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: the middle of freaking nowhere. Okay, that's how they spent

819
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: their days. And there's a there's no doubt about what

820
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: they say they saw. They saw a craft, a giant

821
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 1: metallic craft hovering and Travis Walton gets out of the

822
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 1: car to get a better look. And he goes to

823
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 1: look at this thing.

824
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 3: Only one he's the only one that gets Everyone else.

825
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 1: Is in the car going, holy shit, look at this

826
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: and they're all afraid. But Travis goes out to look

827
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 1: at this thing and he gets blasted by something when

828
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: he looks, and then he tries to run back to

829
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: the car, but he gets blasted in the chest by

830
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: something from this craft that knocks him back. According to

831
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 1: these guys, ten to twenty feet that's a pretty healthy blast.

832
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 1: And you know what the guys in the car do.

833
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: They split, they take off. They're freaking out. They think

834
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: he's dead and they're going to be dead next so

835
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: they take off. They get a little ways down the road,

836
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: and one of the guys on the crew says, we

837
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: can't leave Travis there. We've got to go back and

838
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 1: get him. They go back to get him and he

839
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 1: ain't there. He's not there, And for five days, Travis

840
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 1: Walton is missing. He's gone, and the authorities believe these

841
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 1: five guys have killed him. They're murder suspects. It's a

842
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 1: great freaking story. And the reason I know it's a

843
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:29,720
Speaker 1: great freaking story is I was a extremely young radio

844
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 1: reporter on the morning show at KZLFM in Eugene, Okay, where,

845
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: to be honest with it was a hippie station, and

846
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: I saw this stuff coming over the Zodiac News service

847
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 1: and I started reading it. I wasn't there to cover it,

848
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: but I started reading it, and I got so much

849
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 1: interest from people who were like, oh my, you got

850
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: to tell us more about that case. Everybody was following

851
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: that case because it looked like a murder case. And

852
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: in the middle of this murder case, they put everybody

853
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: on light it detectors. And guess what those guys passed

854
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: the light detector tests.

855
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 3: Think yes, one of them was inconclusive.

856
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 1: Well, because that guy had a criminal record apparently, and

857
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 1: he wasn't eager to be light detected about much of anything,

858
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: but in general, they all passed light detectors christ correct.

859
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 1: Five days later, Travis Walton shows up at least, but

860
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: in the movie he's naked. I don't think he was

861
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: completely naked in real life.

862
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 2: He had lost a lot of his clothes. I think

863
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 2: in real life though.

864
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 1: Okay, well, well that can happen when you're abducted. So

865
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: what's fascinating about this story then, and why it fits

866
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: into this chicken and Egg UFO thing is why because

867
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 1: here's a guy that disappears, and yet his friends say

868
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,479
Speaker 1: there was a UFO that blasted him twenty feet back,

869
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: and then he disappeared, but then he shows up again.

870
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 1: All right, Travis and his friends all said, we never

871
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: saw the UFO incident. We knew nothing about that. And look,

872
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 1: I happen to believe Travis Walton's telling the Stone truth

873
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 1: about what happened to him, because they passed the light

874
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: detector tests and Travis passed them when you see back. Okay,

875
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: so that's a pretty strong thing. Plus, you got even

876
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 1: if Travis hadn't been abducted, you would have had this

877
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: many people having a sighting of a UFO at the

878
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: same time, all of who passed light to it. That

879
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,479
Speaker 1: would have made it a great sighting on its own

880
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 1: if he hadn't been abducted. But skeptics will say, and

881
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 1: I have to say, I think they might have a

882
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: point here, which is, at that time, you got six

883
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:35,879
Speaker 1: guys going out to cut wood all day, They're having

884
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 1: lunch together, they're driving up together, they're driving home together.

885
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 1: There's only three networks in America. The UFO incident is

886
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: two weeks earlier. I don't believe that they never spoke

887
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 1: about that. I'm sure that they did. It just seems

888
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,399
Speaker 1: logical that out of six guys, one of them saw

889
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,320
Speaker 1: the UFO incident. And if you're out there cutting wood,

890
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 1: you're going to talk about it now. I don't know,

891
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,040
Speaker 1: do you buy that or what is your take on.

892
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 2: The way that I think about this group of guys.

893
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 2: I could imagine that they it wouldn't have been on

894
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 2: their radar. They would have treated it as ridiculous, I mean,

895
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 2: like it was just Hollywood nonsense. So I think the

896
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 2: other side of this argument is the one that's harder

897
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 2: to imagine, which is, if you take all of the

898
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 2: facts that you just laid out. Then you have to say, okay,

899
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 2: so what happened was I think in actuality it was

900
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 2: seven guys and in the movie they reduced it to five.

901
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 2: So anyway, but Travis and his logger friends are out

902
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 2: there and they come something happens, and they come up

903
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 2: with a story that they all agree on and have

904
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,399
Speaker 2: enough of the facts correct that they can pass all

905
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 2: of each of them lie detector tests. That is going

906
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 2: to then when Travis comes back, he articulates the exact

907
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 2: same story, so that they would have worked all of

908
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 2: this out, would have put themselves through five days of

909
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 2: misery where they are being accused of murder or at

910
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 2: least investigated for murder, their friends and their family or

911
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 2: everyone in town is looking at them like villains, and

912
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 2: that this was all something they decided to bring upon

913
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 2: themselves to create this hoax. It just it's a lot,

914
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 2: a lot, Like it's a lot to imagine that I

915
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,720
Speaker 2: have a lot of guy friends. You put us all together,

916
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 2: we can't agree on what bar to go to, right,

917
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,919
Speaker 2: So the idea that you could construct this whole elaborate

918
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 2: story and stick to all the details when there was

919
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 2: no apparent reason, like what's the positive outcome of this.

920
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 1: The only positive that's ever been speculated about is the

921
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: fact that they were behind on their contract to clear

922
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: this wood, and because they were about to default on

923
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,800
Speaker 1: their contract. And again I don't I'm not an expert

924
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: on these specific pieces, but the theory of the skeptics

925
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 1: was so they made up this thing so that it

926
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 1: was an act of God that got them out of

927
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 1: their contract situation.

928
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 2: So on that point, when we were researching this episode,

929
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 2: I watched an interview with Travis Walton where they talked

930
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,720
Speaker 2: about the discrepancies between his experience and what's in the movie.

931
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 2: And apparently they made a much bigger point in the

932
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 2: movie about this idea that they were behind and they

933
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 2: were going to lose their contract. He said, no, they

934
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 2: were doing their work, and ultimately when all of this

935
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 2: went down, someone else was brought in to do the work.

936
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 2: It wasn't the big dramatic reason or motivation that people

937
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 2: have made it out to be. So I think a

938
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 2: lot of what people are basing that theory on is

939
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 2: the movie, not the actual experience.

940
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: Well let's get to that movie. One thing I just

941
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 1: want to say, if you're the kind of person that

942
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: wants to look somebody in the eyes and see if

943
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 1: you think they're telling the truth or not. There's a

944
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 1: brand new documentary out called The Experience. There's full disclosure

945
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 1: by a friend of the show, Dean Alioto, who directed

946
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: it and produced it, and it covers both. It's a

947
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,439
Speaker 1: great refresher course on both the Betty and Barney Hill

948
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 1: case but also the Travis Walton case. And Travis is

949
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 1: interviewed on camera, nice clean, clear shot recent Travis tells

950
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 1: his story. You can look him in the eyes in

951
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: HD and you can assess what you think. Now. I've

952
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:28,839
Speaker 1: met Travis multiple times, I've met him at UFO conferences,

953
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 1: I've seen him interviewed again. I'm going to go with

954
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 1: I believe him. But now let's get to this movie.

955
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,840
Speaker 1: Because the movie. Let's also just put a pin in this.

956
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 1: This is a really interesting handoff. Not often does a

957
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:47,400
Speaker 1: movie that represents an earlier abduction get made two weeks

958
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 1: before a second abduction happens. And granted, this could all

959
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 1: be coincidence, it could all be synchronicity, it could all

960
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 1: be the phenomenon playing with our minds. So I'm not

961
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 1: making excuses one way or the other. But i am

962
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 1: pointing it out. This is the strongest case that you

963
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,719
Speaker 1: could imagine for people wanting I don't buy the outer

964
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: limits giving Betty and Barney any idea of what that

965
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: would not cause them to have their hypnotic regressions that way,

966
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 1: But I could buy the Travis thing. Okay, now let's

967
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:24,839
Speaker 1: be clear, he's not reporting just a gray aliens take.

968
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 1: He does report some gray aliens, but then he gets

969
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 1: away and he ends up in a hangar where he

970
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 1: basically sets what looks like Nordic's Yes. Right, So this

971
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 1: isn't going to be an important thing. After this UFO

972
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 1: incident airs a couple of quick things. A couple of

973
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 1: years later, Close Encounters gets released, and remember that's got

974
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: a great abduction in it of the kid buried Guilder.

975
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:53,359
Speaker 1: I think something like that, yes, yeah, and so that's

976
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: a harrowing abduction. In nineteen eighty one, Missing Time by

977
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 1: Bud Hopkins gets released as a book, which is a

978
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 1: fascinating book. Travis Walton writes his own book in nineteen

979
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 1: seventy eight, the Walton Experience that gets published. Communion, as

980
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 1: you mentioned, is published about ten years later. That's the

981
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,240
Speaker 1: one where Whitley Strieber puts the picture of the gray

982
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 1: on the cover. That gets half a million people writing

983
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 1: him saying I've seen that too. Communion gets released as

984
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 1: a film in nineteen eighty nine. In nineteen ninety two,

985
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:30,360
Speaker 1: CBS has a limited series called Intruders that is based

986
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 1: on another Bud Hopkins book. So my point is, abductions

987
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 1: are out there in the zeitgeist at this point. People

988
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:40,919
Speaker 1: are talking about these two cases that might be real,

989
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,279
Speaker 1: but there's also movies going around at this point, and

990
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 1: in fact, by the way, I wrote one of them,

991
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 1: which we've talked about in previous things. Official Denial has

992
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: abductions in it. That comes out in ninety three. The

993
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 1: other thing, though, that comes out in ninety three is

994
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 1: a movie called Fire in the Sky, and Fire in

995
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 1: the Sky is the story of Travis Walton. Now you've

996
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 1: seen the movie, how would you describe the film.

997
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 2: It's a psychological thriller. It has certainly a science fiction

998
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 2: component to it, but just in terms of the overall

999
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 2: feel of it, it's a psychological thriller that's more like

1000
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 2: a small town crime drama.

1001
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 3: Because that's the bulk of the movie.

1002
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:28,840
Speaker 2: And so it does have that section where Travis remembers

1003
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:31,479
Speaker 2: what happened to him because he has a missing time

1004
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 2: circumstance as well, and then something triggers in all of

1005
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:37,919
Speaker 2: his memories of what happened up on the ship during

1006
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 2: his abduction come back. But that's actually a very small,

1007
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:44,320
Speaker 2: from a minute standpoint part of the film, so everything

1008
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 2: else feels very grounded in this small town murder investigation.

1009
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:53,319
Speaker 1: James Garner is the sheriff that thinks they're all murdering live.

1010
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 1: It's a great cast, by the way, talk to nice,

1011
00:56:55,880 --> 00:57:00,240
Speaker 1: very nice. Robert Patrick plays really it becomes his story.

1012
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 1: He's the leader of the crew since Travis Walton is missing,

1013
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 1: played by dB Sweeney. dB Sweeney, Right, okay, however, Hollywood

1014
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,680
Speaker 1: is about to come in and create another situation where

1015
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 1: you could say, chicken and egg. Why do we believe

1016
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 1: this instead of that? All right, you are so correct.

1017
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 1: Most of the film is just a good thriller. It's

1018
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 1: very nice, okay, But at some point dB Sweeney playing

1019
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: Travis Walton, remembers what happened to him. He's not regressed

1020
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:35,440
Speaker 1: or anything, he just remembers it. And admittedly it's not

1021
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 1: the longest thing around, but it's about a five minute

1022
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 1: sequence all right on board the ship, and it is

1023
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 1: the most harrowing abduction I anybody that wants to see

1024
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: that just by itself, it is a great piece of filmmaking.

1025
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 1: It's so freaking scary. He wakes up and he's got

1026
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,920
Speaker 1: this stuff around him. He's on this ship and it's dirty,

1027
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 1: and these evil, malicious gray are pulling him through the

1028
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: hallway and then they put him on a table and

1029
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 1: these doctors are just nasty ass They got they don't

1030
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: care what he's going through. They hold him down so

1031
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 1: that with some wrapping paper weirdness, and they've got just

1032
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 1: one of his eyes open. It's very similar to that

1033
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 1: Disclosure Day. The eye and Disclosure Day. It's frightening. Okay,

1034
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: here's the problem. It didn't happen that way. Yeah, and

1035
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 1: I know it didn't happen that way, and so is

1036
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 1: everybody now. But here's what really happened. We told you

1037
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: that Travis had a much different experience. He was not

1038
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 1: being dragged through dirty hallways. He was in a clean

1039
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 1: ship basically that had some Nordics and some other saucers

1040
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: in it, and he had an experience. But then that

1041
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 1: was that. Okay, Tracy Tormae is the screenwriter of it was.

1042
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:02,080
Speaker 1: He was passionate about this, he wrote it. I knew

1043
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 1: Tracy for years. He's passed on a few years back.

1044
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 1: Tracy a passionate guy about this topic, etc. And he

1045
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 1: tried to get it right. He hung out with Travis.

1046
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 1: They spent a lot of time together. Tracy wrote a

1047
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 1: first draft that has the abduction sequence exactly as Travis

1048
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 1: remembered it. And guess what the executives said, Yeah, I

1049
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 1: just I don't think that's going to work. That's not

1050
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 1: quite right. It's got to be scarier. And Tracy told me,

1051
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:38,320
Speaker 1: and he's said this in other instances as well, that

1052
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 1: what happened is he was presented Brent with a choice. Yeah,

1053
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 1: you can refuse to do it and stand on your

1054
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 1: higher ground and morality, or will fire you and will

1055
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 1: fire you, or you can do it. And so Tracy

1056
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 1: wrote that harrowing scene. It's a brilliant piece of filmmaking,

1057
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:01,920
Speaker 1: but it ain't what happened. Now. The problem I think

1058
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:05,480
Speaker 1: that this reveals is there are so many movies that

1059
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 1: have been made about abductions over the years, and like

1060
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 1: I said at the beginning, we could go do an

1061
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:12,720
Speaker 1: entire show and still not cover all of them. There's

1062
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 1: so many. There's found footage business that the other thing.

1063
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 1: But this is a great example of adaptation changes things

1064
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 1: when you're adapting real things, and it doesn't apply only

1065
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:27,440
Speaker 1: to UFO movies. You have to adapt, you have to

1066
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 1: make a better movie out of it. The movie that

1067
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 1: I'm behind right now, the Last Battle of the World

1068
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 1: War two movie is based on a New York Times bestseller,

1069
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 1: but I've had to adapt it. And so when people

1070
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:41,800
Speaker 1: see that movie in the theaters and say, but that's

1071
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 1: not exactly what happened, I'm going to say, read the

1072
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: book if you want to know exactly what happened. And

1073
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 1: I guess that was paramount I believe made it. That

1074
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 1: was their point of view. But it really shows because now,

1075
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 1: of course there's a whole generation of people who never

1076
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 1: heard about Travis Walton's statements, never been to a conference,

1077
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 1: never saw a documentary where he told his story, only

1078
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 1: saw fire in the sky, and they think that's what

1079
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 1: happened to him. And so my question is does that

1080
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 1: then impact other people about either faking or misremembering their

1081
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 1: own abduction experiences.

1082
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:21,360
Speaker 2: I don't know what's your take, It goes back to

1083
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 2: this recurring question chicken or an egg. You think about

1084
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:27,600
Speaker 2: how many people did see Fire in the Sky when

1085
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:30,040
Speaker 2: it first came out or on cable since then. The

1086
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 2: movie does have a reputation, And if that's what people

1087
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 2: think an abduction experience is, then how many people have

1088
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 2: reported some version of that abduction experience in the wake

1089
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 2: of that film.

1090
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 3: Probably a lot.

1091
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 2: And yet I would argue too that there's a lot

1092
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 2: of people that have very different abduction experiences. That it's

1093
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 2: a little bit like people reporting near death experiences.

1094
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 3: They're all over the place.

1095
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 2: But I think most people's perception of abduction experiences are negative.

1096
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:06,120
Speaker 2: They're scary, you're treated like an animal, you're violated. All

1097
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 2: of those things I think are the keywords that you

1098
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 2: would have for abductions. One thing that came up that

1099
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 2: I was fascinated by ask myself how many real life stories?

1100
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 2: And granted I'm maybe taking some liberties there, but Travis

1101
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 2: presented in his telling of the story, this is what happened,

1102
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 2: and as you said, lie detector tests were passed, So

1103
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 2: let's take it at face value and say it was

1104
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:29,560
Speaker 2: a real life story. How many real life abduction stories

1105
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:33,400
Speaker 2: after Fire in the Sky have been made into movies.

1106
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 2: I think you'll find the number is almost none, And

1107
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 2: so it raises this interesting question. The only other abduction

1108
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 2: sequence that I think most people could remember is, as

1109
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 2: you said, going back to Close Encounters of the Third Kind,

1110
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:50,640
Speaker 2: in the context of that movie, when you're watching it

1111
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 2: and that little boy is being abducted and the mother

1112
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:55,440
Speaker 2: is from her point of view, you're trying to stop

1113
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 2: these things from getting in and taking your child. It's harrowing,

1114
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 2: but at the end of the day, they're just benevolent

1115
01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:03,640
Speaker 2: space brothers and they bring the kid back.

1116
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:03,960
Speaker 1: Right.

1117
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 2: So that's a scary abduction story, But in the bigger picture,

1118
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 2: it's okay.

1119
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 1: With a lot of abduction things made for TV and film,

1120
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 1: but they weren't based on true things. So, for example,

1121
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:19,400
Speaker 1: you and I did a TV series Dark Skies based

1122
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:23,400
Speaker 1: on abductions. There's abductions in my official denial, there's abductions

1123
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 1: on X Files, there's abductions in Taken, the series Spielberg did.

1124
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:31,120
Speaker 1: There's a lot of abductions. There's a lot of movies

1125
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 1: about abductions as well. But again, my passion has been

1126
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 1: I believe if we are entering a disclosure world right now,

1127
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:46,120
Speaker 1: that the hunger for people is going to be to

1128
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 1: see less made up stories, more stories pulled out of history,

1129
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 1: which is my point. I'm so passionate about this.

1130
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, And that's and I think a story

1131
01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 2: that has truth to it. Like you said, you watch

1132
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:04,600
Speaker 2: Travis tell his story, and for me, I just I

1133
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:07,760
Speaker 2: take him at face value. Maybe all of the details

1134
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:10,400
Speaker 2: have gotten fuzzy over the years, but I've also seen

1135
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 2: things where over the years he's kept pretty close to

1136
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:16,840
Speaker 2: his story. Being an experiencer myself, I know that when

1137
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:20,680
Speaker 2: you have these details that're burned into your memory because

1138
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:22,640
Speaker 2: it's in fact, you wish that you could get rid

1139
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:25,920
Speaker 2: of them sometimes and you can't. So the fact that

1140
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:29,360
Speaker 2: was one of the last, if not the last true

1141
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:33,320
Speaker 2: story being presented to the public as an abduction. There's

1142
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:36,840
Speaker 2: been many abduction cases that have come and gone since then,

1143
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 2: some very interesting and compelling, but Hollywood has not found

1144
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:45,160
Speaker 2: the interest to tell any of those stories. Now, to

1145
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 2: Hollywood's defense, Fire in the Sky was not a huge success.

1146
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:51,600
Speaker 2: Maybe in fact, it was too harrowing for people. Maybe

1147
01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:54,280
Speaker 2: that's a story people don't want to tell or don't

1148
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 2: want to experience.

1149
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1150
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 1: Before we wrap this up, some of you may be

1151
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:06,960
Speaker 1: wondering whatever happened to that Betty and Barney Hill movie

1152
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 1: that dan Aykroyd called me about in that phone message

1153
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:13,080
Speaker 1: we played at the beginning of this show. Okay, it's

1154
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 1: a long story. Here's the short, short version. To start with,

1155
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 1: there was a screenplay I wrote immediately after leaving my

1156
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 1: gig as CEO of the Television Academy. And you should

1157
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 1: know that my wife Jackie helps me run my production company,

1158
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:31,840
Speaker 1: Stellar Production. So she and I took that screenplay out

1159
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 1: and we found a very high level management team that

1160
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:38,400
Speaker 1: wanted to produce it, all of which sounded promising until

1161
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:41,280
Speaker 1: about a year into that relationship when they offered me

1162
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:44,280
Speaker 1: a trade off. One of their producing clients would take

1163
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:46,480
Speaker 1: it on and they were going to start with a

1164
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:50,200
Speaker 1: new writer who would completely rewrite my script and probably

1165
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 1: without much input from me at all. So Jackie and

1166
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 1: I parted company with that team, and we turned down

1167
01:05:57,160 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 1: their very generous offer to fire myself from my own project.

1168
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:03,600
Speaker 1: Instead of giving up, though, Jackie and I went to

1169
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:07,040
Speaker 1: New Hampshire. We went to the locations in the White

1170
01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 1: Mountains where the Hills had been abducted. We visited Betty

1171
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:13,680
Speaker 1: and Barney's home in Portsmouth, a lot of things like that,

1172
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 1: and that's when I wrote this three part investigative series

1173
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 1: on medium called The Lost Honeymoon of Betty and Barney Hill.

1174
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 1: And at that point we were armed with the piece

1175
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 1: of IP or intellectual property, and the fact that we

1176
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 1: actually controlled it seemed like a good thing. So we

1177
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 1: made another run for it. And in the middle of

1178
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 1: all this, Dan Ackroyd and I met. He read the script,

1179
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:38,760
Speaker 1: he loved it. He even wrote me a letter of

1180
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:42,320
Speaker 1: intent stating that he would be very pleased to play

1181
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:45,160
Speaker 1: the part of doctor Benjamin Simon. After that, we had

1182
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:48,720
Speaker 1: a brief flirtation with another manager, this time an Australian

1183
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 1: who had just relocated to the US. She wanted to

1184
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 1: represent the project, but only if we changed the script

1185
01:06:55,720 --> 01:06:58,520
Speaker 1: in dramatic ways that would fit the way she felt

1186
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:01,800
Speaker 1: about alien abductions. So, in other words, she wasn't a

1187
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:04,760
Speaker 1: producer who could make it, and she wasn't a studio

1188
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:07,360
Speaker 1: or a network who could buy it. But before she

1189
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:09,400
Speaker 1: could even try to set it up or sell it,

1190
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:12,040
Speaker 1: we would have to spend about three months doing her

1191
01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:16,080
Speaker 1: voluminous notes that we didn't even agree with another three

1192
01:07:16,160 --> 01:07:19,640
Speaker 1: second pass there. Eventually we made a new alliance with

1193
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 1: a different producer who was a very cool guy who

1194
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:25,920
Speaker 1: worked his heart out. His biggest success, though, was finding

1195
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:29,400
Speaker 1: a very high profile TV producer and I mean very

1196
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:32,200
Speaker 1: eye profile who wanted to do it, and a buyer,

1197
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:35,680
Speaker 1: a major, huge studio who wanted to make it. This

1198
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:39,800
Speaker 1: felt very good to us, but they had only one

1199
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:43,360
Speaker 1: condition before making an offer in order to move ahead.

1200
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 1: They said that a writer would have to take over

1201
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:50,360
Speaker 1: the project and be guaranteed sole credit for the script. Now,

1202
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:54,840
Speaker 1: I have always supported representation in the entertainment business, so

1203
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 1: I support people having access, but this just seemed like

1204
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:02,320
Speaker 1: the wrong creative direction for a project about something as

1205
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:05,800
Speaker 1: controversial as alien abduction. We had to pass on that.

1206
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:09,960
Speaker 1: Jackie and I then cross developed the project from the

1207
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:13,400
Speaker 1: feature version to also be a ten part limited series

1208
01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:16,599
Speaker 1: so that we had both our bases covered film and TV.

1209
01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:19,800
Speaker 1: And then we went on and attached new agents and

1210
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:23,600
Speaker 1: managers and a director and a new very experienced producer

1211
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:26,920
Speaker 1: to this sales effort. Things were looking good, and then

1212
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:30,800
Speaker 1: because the universe apparently is a very strange place with

1213
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:34,439
Speaker 1: a very strange sense of Humor. Two other high profile

1214
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:38,120
Speaker 1: Betty and Barney Hill projects surfaced in the Hollywood trades,

1215
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:40,640
Speaker 1: one right after the other. Now I'm not going to

1216
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:43,080
Speaker 1: name these other projects, and I haven't read their scripts,

1217
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:45,920
Speaker 1: but from what was written about them, it sounded like

1218
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:48,160
Speaker 1: the way that they saw the Betty and Barney Hill

1219
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:52,360
Speaker 1: story was very different than our own take. Those projects

1220
01:08:52,360 --> 01:08:55,240
Speaker 1: appeared to be skeptical, and as time has passed, I

1221
01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:58,360
Speaker 1: should point out nobody's made a Betty and Barney Hill

1222
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:03,120
Speaker 1: movie yet, includes us, but also any other projects. So

1223
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:05,200
Speaker 1: Jackie and I haven't given up, and in fact, we

1224
01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:08,559
Speaker 1: have new energy because our vision of the story is

1225
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:12,000
Speaker 1: that Betty and Barney Hill were abducted period. We don't

1226
01:09:12,040 --> 01:09:15,400
Speaker 1: think they were victims of a psychological fugue state where

1227
01:09:15,400 --> 01:09:19,160
Speaker 1: they got their dreams confused during hypnosis. In fact, I

1228
01:09:19,200 --> 01:09:22,320
Speaker 1: would say, listen to those hypnosis tapes that you can

1229
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 1: find on the Internet and in documentaries, and they're enough

1230
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:30,680
Speaker 1: for us that happened. And also, certainly Steven Spielberg's disclosure

1231
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:34,200
Speaker 1: Day has put alien abduction back into the mainstream conversation.

1232
01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:37,719
Speaker 1: So I think there is room for a good, based

1233
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:42,080
Speaker 1: on truth alien abduction story. So if Jackie and I

1234
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:45,200
Speaker 1: are lucky enough to win the race to production. I

1235
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:47,599
Speaker 1: would tell our new partners that there's one call I

1236
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:49,680
Speaker 1: wanted to make right away, and it would be to

1237
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:52,559
Speaker 1: Dan Ackroyd. I would want to tell him, Hey, Dan,

1238
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:55,760
Speaker 1: I'm sending you the latest script and we want you

1239
01:09:56,120 --> 01:10:01,200
Speaker 1: to play the part of doctor Benjamin Simon. Brent. That's

1240
01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:04,080
Speaker 1: my Hollywood story. In brief back to.

1241
01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:06,960
Speaker 2: You, I think I would make the exact same creative

1242
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:10,000
Speaker 2: choice that you've made. I think just being definitive, taking

1243
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:14,840
Speaker 2: a stance is a completely legitimate way to tell a story. Interestingly,

1244
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:18,120
Speaker 2: my belief in both of these cases comes from my

1245
01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 2: own personal experience, and I think you look at the

1246
01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:26,080
Speaker 2: commonalities between their cases and mine. I told this on

1247
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:29,880
Speaker 2: an earlier episode, but I had my own missing time gap,

1248
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:33,599
Speaker 2: and it came in the wake of when John Harrington

1249
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:38,640
Speaker 2: disclosed to me. And what's really fascinating about it is

1250
01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:41,679
Speaker 2: that I didn't realize I had a missing time gap

1251
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:44,719
Speaker 2: until only a couple of years ago. And if you remember,

1252
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:48,000
Speaker 2: the John Harrington story happened in nineteen eighty one, and

1253
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:52,720
Speaker 2: when we were prepping for this podcast, someone said, what's

1254
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:55,360
Speaker 2: it about? And I told them and I gave them

1255
01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:58,640
Speaker 2: a little snapshot of the John Harrington story, and at

1256
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:01,160
Speaker 2: the end of it, they asked me question no one

1257
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:04,600
Speaker 2: had ever asked before, which was, so, how was the

1258
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:05,800
Speaker 2: rest of your trip in DC?

1259
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:09,000
Speaker 3: Nothing? Zero?

1260
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:12,320
Speaker 2: I don't remember one thing. I remember the night that

1261
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:15,040
Speaker 2: I laid in bed after I was disclosed to and

1262
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:18,920
Speaker 2: then I remember being home and going on a graduation

1263
01:11:19,080 --> 01:11:23,280
Speaker 2: trip that summer with vivid details, and I asked my family,

1264
01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:27,800
Speaker 2: and apparently we never really talked about it. Everything that

1265
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:30,559
Speaker 2: I know about the trip I heard through my mom,

1266
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:33,600
Speaker 2: through John's wife talking about all the great things that

1267
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:35,519
Speaker 2: we did, and I just took it at face value.

1268
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:40,240
Speaker 2: And now I'm as we've gone back and looked at

1269
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:43,360
Speaker 2: the Betty and Barney Hill case, I'm actually sitting here

1270
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:47,280
Speaker 2: thinking maybe I need to do a hypnotic regression, something

1271
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:50,559
Speaker 2: that I never would have considered, to see if I

1272
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:54,599
Speaker 2: can unearth that week or ten days or whatever it

1273
01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:58,000
Speaker 2: was that I spent in DC, and the idea and

1274
01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:01,320
Speaker 2: the frustration and the fact that I know it's possible

1275
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:04,599
Speaker 2: to have a missing time gap when something traumatic happens

1276
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:07,439
Speaker 2: to you. That's where I tend to look at both

1277
01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:11,120
Speaker 2: of these cases and say, something happened to them. People

1278
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:16,200
Speaker 2: don't experience that level of trauma just out of their

1279
01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:20,200
Speaker 2: sheer imagination. Right, that would imply that I have a

1280
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:23,800
Speaker 2: really scary dream and I'm traumatized to the point of

1281
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:27,000
Speaker 2: not being able to work for months. Really, I've never

1282
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:29,640
Speaker 2: really heard that happening before. So if it's just a

1283
01:12:29,640 --> 01:12:33,800
Speaker 2: product of my mind, I don't think it's that that

1284
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:37,320
Speaker 2: severe that it would cause such disruption in people's lives.

1285
01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:42,639
Speaker 2: And both these cases, people's lives were greatly disrupted, turned

1286
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:46,920
Speaker 2: upside down, lots of negative attention. And to go through

1287
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:50,040
Speaker 2: that just because you invented it, I just don't buy it.

1288
01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:53,960
Speaker 1: And it either, although it raises a question about your

1289
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:56,280
Speaker 1: missing time, which by the way, we should note would

1290
01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:59,840
Speaker 1: be longer than Travis Walton's five days. But it wasn't

1291
01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:04,000
Speaker 1: time though where you felt it and have on Earth.

1292
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:08,759
Speaker 1: You weren't abducted into no craft. You just lost memory,

1293
01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:11,000
Speaker 1: which is a whole different kind of missing time too.

1294
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:13,240
Speaker 1: It's almost like, I don't know, maybe MK ultra got

1295
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:15,240
Speaker 1: hold of you and wiped your memory. I don't know.

1296
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:17,599
Speaker 2: I think that with both with the Betty and Barney

1297
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:21,080
Speaker 2: Hill case, that if you look at it exclusively there

1298
01:13:21,160 --> 01:13:24,960
Speaker 2: was based on the hypnotic regression, it seemed that the

1299
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:28,320
Speaker 2: aliens did not want them to remember, right, That was

1300
01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:32,400
Speaker 2: actually discussed. But the idea being is that something that's

1301
01:13:32,439 --> 01:13:36,880
Speaker 2: so traumatic happens to you, your brain just closes it off.

1302
01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:39,360
Speaker 2: It doesn't allow you to remember it. That's what seemed

1303
01:13:39,439 --> 01:13:41,840
Speaker 2: like what happened to Travis Walton when he came back.

1304
01:13:41,880 --> 01:13:46,080
Speaker 2: He didn't remember what happened until something spurred his memory

1305
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:50,320
Speaker 2: and all of those the remembrances came flooding back into

1306
01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:53,760
Speaker 2: his mind. That's what I'm talking about is, yes, I

1307
01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:57,280
Speaker 2: was not abducted, but something so traumatic happened to me

1308
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:01,640
Speaker 2: that I shut down. My brain just stopped remembering for

1309
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:05,479
Speaker 2: a period of time for no reason whatsoever. And unlike

1310
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:08,920
Speaker 2: both of these stories where eventually they got their memories back,

1311
01:14:09,040 --> 01:14:09,679
Speaker 2: I still.

1312
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:10,880
Speaker 3: Don't have those memories back.

1313
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:14,400
Speaker 2: That's why I'm saying now I have to actually consider

1314
01:14:14,439 --> 01:14:18,400
Speaker 2: what Betty and Barney did was go and have hypnotic

1315
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:21,519
Speaker 2: regression and see if I can exhume any of that

1316
01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:23,080
Speaker 2: time that I spent in DC.

1317
01:14:23,920 --> 01:14:27,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's anomalous. I like your conclusion that because you

1318
01:14:27,439 --> 01:14:32,160
Speaker 1: are an experiencer, you are certainly more open to believing

1319
01:14:32,479 --> 01:14:34,840
Speaker 1: the stories of an experiencer. I'm going to put a

1320
01:14:34,880 --> 01:14:38,120
Speaker 1: slightly different twist on it, because that's all yours, and

1321
01:14:38,360 --> 01:14:40,760
Speaker 1: I can't comment on that because I'm not an experiencer.

1322
01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:43,560
Speaker 1: I've experienced the cover up, I have not experienced the

1323
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:48,360
Speaker 1: phenomenia in that respect. Okay, here's the thing we've discussed,

1324
01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:52,160
Speaker 1: how Fire in the Sky presents an abduction thing that

1325
01:14:52,280 --> 01:14:59,040
Speaker 1: is harrowing, specific, and horrific. Okay, that happened, millions of

1326
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 1: people have seen it. However, people continually report abductions and

1327
01:15:05,080 --> 01:15:09,320
Speaker 1: experiences right now, and to the best of my knowledge,

1328
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:13,800
Speaker 1: almost none of them, almost none of them report a

1329
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:18,559
Speaker 1: Travis Walton fire in the Sky kind of situation. They

1330
01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:22,639
Speaker 1: report something else, but they don't report being dragged through

1331
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:26,680
Speaker 1: dirty spaceships and wrapped in alien saran wrap. They do

1332
01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:29,760
Speaker 1: not report that, to the best of my knowledge. And

1333
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:32,080
Speaker 1: I think it does go back to the whole serial

1334
01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:35,840
Speaker 1: killer thing. Just because you've seen something doesn't make you

1335
01:15:36,120 --> 01:15:39,839
Speaker 1: adapt and adopt if you will, that into your psyche

1336
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:45,320
Speaker 1: and then spew it back out in harrowing hypnotic sessions.

1337
01:15:45,439 --> 01:15:48,000
Speaker 1: That's not the way things seem to have worked at

1338
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:50,880
Speaker 1: the end of the day, Betty and Barney Hill were

1339
01:15:50,920 --> 01:15:54,400
Speaker 1: the first people to be abducted. It really happened to them.

1340
01:15:54,600 --> 01:15:57,000
Speaker 1: That's why the name of my film is Missing Time.

1341
01:15:57,040 --> 01:15:59,400
Speaker 1: That's why I want to tell their story, and because

1342
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:02,280
Speaker 1: I believe it's true. But I also believe Travis Walton

1343
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:05,120
Speaker 1: is telling the truth. And I will just say a

1344
01:16:05,200 --> 01:16:08,559
Speaker 1: kind word about Tracy Tormey, who's not with us any longer.

1345
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:14,759
Speaker 1: But this man was thorough. He understood the Travis Walton case.

1346
01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:18,719
Speaker 1: He talked to everybody, he spent years of his life

1347
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:22,040
Speaker 1: looking into it. And Tracy was not a guy that

1348
01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:25,840
Speaker 1: believed everything. You could tell Tracy a story and Tracy

1349
01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:27,439
Speaker 1: would take me aside and go, I don't think you

1350
01:16:27,479 --> 01:16:31,439
Speaker 1: can believe that because blah blah blah. He would investigate things.

1351
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:35,479
Speaker 1: He investigated Travis Walton. He believed him. And if my

1352
01:16:35,560 --> 01:16:38,960
Speaker 1: buddy Tracy believed him, I believe him. So I think

1353
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:42,800
Speaker 1: these are two great cases. And if you're studying the

1354
01:16:43,120 --> 01:16:49,000
Speaker 1: experiencer situation today, they are the trailhead that's where we

1355
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:51,960
Speaker 1: really get this thing going. And if they happened, Brent,

1356
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:55,439
Speaker 1: you have to ask yourself, what does that mean. If

1357
01:16:55,439 --> 01:16:59,120
Speaker 1: they were the first when things were just kicking off.

1358
01:17:00,160 --> 01:17:03,599
Speaker 1: Where are we now? It's been sixty five years since

1359
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:07,680
Speaker 1: Betty and Barney whoever was taking people and appears to

1360
01:17:07,760 --> 01:17:10,479
Speaker 1: still be doing it to a certain extent. What are

1361
01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:13,280
Speaker 1: they up to? Shouldn't they be done by now? What

1362
01:17:13,320 --> 01:17:13,880
Speaker 1: are they doing?

1363
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:16,719
Speaker 2: Those are great questions you're asking, and I can only

1364
01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:19,599
Speaker 2: hope that's going to be part of this disclosure we've

1365
01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:21,280
Speaker 2: been promised by the administration.

1366
01:17:22,040 --> 01:17:24,720
Speaker 1: All Right, look, let's say good night, but also tip

1367
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:27,439
Speaker 1: of the hat to Dan Ackroyd. Dan, thank you for

1368
01:17:27,560 --> 01:17:30,839
Speaker 1: your good graciousness and letting us play the phone message

1369
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:33,439
Speaker 1: because it gives everybody a smile on their face and

1370
01:17:33,479 --> 01:17:37,000
Speaker 1: we appreciate everything that you have done to move this

1371
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:39,599
Speaker 1: story forward. So thank you, dan Ackroyd.

1372
01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:43,519
Speaker 3: Yes, thank you Dan. All Right, Watch this, guys, everybody.

1373
01:17:48,400 --> 01:17:51,519
Speaker 1: Sound, Light and Frequency is an iHeart podcast produced by

1374
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:55,320
Speaker 1: Stellar Productions. It's executive produced by Nick Johnson and for

1375
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:58,759
Speaker 1: Stellar Jackie's Abel. Our show's music was written by Anna

1376
01:17:58,800 --> 01:18:01,479
Speaker 1: Stumf and Hamilton Life eight Houser and your hosts and

1377
01:18:01,520 --> 01:18:05,200
Speaker 1: executive producers are Bryce Able. That's me and Brent Friedman.

1378
01:18:05,520 --> 01:19:00,200
Speaker 1: Watch the Skies