1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here, 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election. 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade 5 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent. 6 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible. 7 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means 8 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that, 9 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 2: let's get to the show. 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: Reporter from More Perfect Union recently went to a Pennsylvania 11 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: Trump rally and instead of trying to find like the 12 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: craziest people he possibly could at the rally, actually try 13 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:45,959 Speaker 1: to have a conversation with people and see if they 14 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: might be able to find some common ground on something. 15 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 4: Here's a little bit of how that went. 16 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 5: Why Trump instead of Bernie Sanders? 17 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 6: What I look at is more progressives like the Bernie 18 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 6: Sanders factions and stuff like that. We actually see a 19 00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 6: lot of the same problems. 20 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 7: And I would vote for Bernie Sanders before I vote 21 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 7: for like a Ted Cruiser, market rubio. 22 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 6: Things are more expensive. 23 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 7: I think people were more scared. 24 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 8: Our money doesn't have no value, and that's why people 25 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 8: that's why we're having problems, this whole inflation thing. 26 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 9: It's been building a building for multi decades and it's 27 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 9: getting close. Now. 28 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 5: You work in McDonald's, I do. 29 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 8: Do you feel like you're getting everything out of work 30 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 8: that you're putting into it. 31 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 7: I believe that you get paid more. 32 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 3: All I am doing is I'm working my ass off 33 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 3: to get my money. 34 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 4: I'm a hard worker, and I feel like I deserved more. 35 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 6: I worked down in West Virginia. Yeah, on the rigs 36 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 6: for Evil Big Red Haliburton, Oh my god, Halliburton. We 37 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 6: were two weeks on, one week off, so you never 38 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 6: got to go home. We were the lowest paid of 39 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 6: all the workers out there. I only made thirteen to 40 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 6: fifty when I got hired on for Halliburt. For Halliburton, YEP. 41 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 6: Probably wouldn't have an Iraq War if it wouldn't have 42 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 6: been for the Halliburton. There's cheney and stuff. 43 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 3: We were expendable, that's all it was. 44 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 6: Haliburton, Big Red they called it. You're just part of 45 00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 6: the machine, and the machine can be replaced. 46 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 8: Can you really trust a billionaire help me understand why 47 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 8: that's the thing for you. 48 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 7: Yeah, So with billionaires, I would say, honestly, no, you can't, 49 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 7: I'll say with Trump when he debated Hillary Clinton in 50 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 7: twenty sixteen, she said all these things about the tax laws, 51 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 7: all this, and Trump said, where have you been for 52 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 7: thirty years? You know you haven't done anything about it. 53 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 7: And then he said, I know you're not going to 54 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 7: do it because all your donors who fund your campaign 55 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 7: benefit from the same tax breaks and tax. 56 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 3: Laws I do. 57 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 7: So whether it's left or right, these people they're not 58 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 7: really going to change the tax laws from the donors 59 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 7: that are funding their campaign. 60 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 6: We lost our we lost our republic decades ago. 61 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 5: We're living in an oligarchy. 62 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: And that reporter John Russell, who not only does work 63 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: for More Perfect Union but also has his own sub 64 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: stack at the haller joins us. 65 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 4: Now, great to see my friend, Good to. 66 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 8: See you, manod Moarning everybody, thanks for having me on. 67 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, So just talk to us a little 68 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 1: bit about your approach here. How did you like was 69 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: this the general consensus from the people that you talked to, 70 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: or was this like kind of cherry pick the things 71 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: that overlapped with some of your you know, worldview. 72 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 8: Look, I poured drinks in the rust belt where I live. 73 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 5: I'm above it. Right now forever. 74 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 8: And you know, the county I worked in voted for 75 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 8: Trump by seventy one percent. So when you know the 76 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 8: bartender is like me, a white guy with a mullet, 77 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 8: people kind of assume that you're on the same page. 78 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 8: But when they find out I'm a card carryon labor leftist, 79 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 8: I make no bones about that, there's always shock that 80 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 8: sometimes we are on the same page. This was the 81 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 8: hunch that I brought up to that Trump rally. I 82 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 8: wanted to have organizing conversations. What would it be You know, 83 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 8: if we're going to have mass movements and really address 84 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 8: a lot of our problems, it's going to require not 85 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 8: half of the working class, but everybody in it. So 86 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 8: I wanted to see what would it be like if 87 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 8: you had those organizing conversations with people in line. 88 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 5: At the Trump rally, we you know, cuture the best 89 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 5: parts that came out of there. 90 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 8: There's a lot of crazy things in there too, But 91 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 8: people are complicated, and if we're going to meet them 92 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 8: where they are, you have to wade through that to 93 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 8: get down to that class solidarity and see what's possible 94 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 8: when you can get people into the same boat. 95 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I thought that the best part of 96 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 2: the interview. We see how many people are out there 97 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 2: and being like, oh my god, this one guy to 98 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 2: Trump rally said something crazy and it's like goes viral. 99 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 2: Obviously you took a different tactic here. What are some 100 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 2: of the shared assumptions that you found whenever you were 101 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: talking with some people at the rally. 102 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 8: Well everybody, I mean we really, as you step back 103 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 8: and think about it, we live in unbelievable times, you know, 104 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 8: and we're all reacting to that in our own different ways. 105 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 8: So the shared things were a sense of disbelief. 106 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 5: Pick your issue. 107 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 8: I mean, Elon Musk recently lost two hundred billion dollars, 108 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 8: right and somehow still the second richest man on earth. 109 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 8: You heard somebody who was working for Halliburton right there. 110 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 8: He was making thirteen dollars an hour for Halliburton, and 111 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 8: this was you know that there was a part of his. 112 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 5: Interview that didn't make the cut. 113 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 8: He said, we were pulling double digit millions, high double 114 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 8: digit millions of natural gas out of the ground and 115 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 8: we're getting paid thirteen bucks an hour. This is Elon 116 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 8: Musks losing two hundred billion and being their world second 117 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 8: richest man. I mean, everybody, regardless of where you're coming 118 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 8: from on the spectrum, knows that that's crazy, right, and 119 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 8: we're all having different reactions about what to do about it. 120 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 8: But a lot of the times, the political landscape doesn't 121 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 8: have a lot of alternatives to do something. 122 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: So John, at this point, a Trump presidency isn't like 123 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: a theoretical possible future. We lived through a Trump presidency. 124 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: We know what the priorities were. They were class war, 125 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: all right, But you know of the sort that we've 126 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: had in this country for multiple generations at this point 127 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: is big accomplishment was this giant you know, corporate tax cutting, 128 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: three sense of which went to the top earners in 129 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: the country, et cetera. 130 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 4: Et cetera. 131 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: So how do you still, based on your conversations with 132 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: these individuals, but also based on your own analysis, how 133 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: you to hold on to this idea that he's going 134 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: to be on the side of the working class when 135 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: it just wasn't the case when he actually had the 136 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: power of the presidency. 137 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 8: There's so many things I think about here, but we're 138 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 8: really in the infant stages of trying to build working 139 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 8: class solidarity. We haven't had the kind of movement that 140 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 8: stick around and really work, not just on an election 141 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 8: cycle basis at building working class solidarity, but you know, 142 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 8: over the long term, partly because you know, the status 143 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 8: quo doesn't want that to happen. If the left and 144 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 8: the right of the working class were to ever unite 145 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 8: on the themes that came up in these interviews, raining 146 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 8: in billionaire power, ending all these forever wars, if working 147 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 8: class people got together on those things, we would have 148 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 8: a lot to win. The ruling class would have a 149 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 8: far way to fall. So those kind of movements have 150 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:17,559 Speaker 8: really been kept down. But you know, you never really 151 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 8: know what something's going to be like until you have it. 152 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 8: So I think people are looking at Donald Trump and 153 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 8: they're saying, well, you know, this guy who might go 154 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 8: into a rally and do literally anything. I mean, humph 155 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 8: the American flag. Right, That's just one example, but it's 156 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 8: a sure sign to people that this billionaire is not 157 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 8: like the others. They don't he doesn't fit into polite 158 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 8: society that's handed down, you know, forty years of this 159 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 8: painful stat nation that we all kind of feel. Now, 160 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 8: is he going to go to that for the working class? 161 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 8: Is he going to show up on a picket line 162 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 8: like some of the people hoped he would. 163 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 5: In our interviews. No, I don't think he's going to 164 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 5: do that. 165 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 8: But the big point to me is that the folks 166 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 8: on at his rally they want him to show up 167 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 8: on a pick of the line. 168 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 5: They want him to support unions. 169 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 8: You know, we can all have our best whether or 170 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 8: not that's going to happen, But the big thing to 171 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 8: me is that there is an apptite for anti establishment 172 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 8: labor left organizing among the people you would least expect. 173 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 5: To have that opinion. 174 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:32,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's been research from Jacovin in partnership with a 175 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: think tank focused on working class politics. They've done a 176 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: number of field sudi's testing different messaging and they found 177 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: exactly what you're saying here is that Listen, you're not 178 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,599 Speaker 1: going to convert hardcore Trump supporters overnight. 179 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 4: But can you start to shift back. 180 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: Some of the class realignment that has happened in the 181 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: Trump era if you use economic populist messaging. 182 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 7: Yes. 183 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: On the other hand, you know, the issues that seem 184 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: to be top of mind in a lot of ways 185 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: among at least some significant portion of their publican base, 186 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: are these cultural like lightning Rod, You know, transgender issues 187 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: is big right now. CRT was big a minute ago, 188 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: and so it seems like there's almost more interest or 189 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: the voting behavior tracks more with the cultural issues than 190 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: it is with the economic interest that you know, we 191 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 1: see the polls of the number who want to curb 192 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: corporate power and want to lift the minimum wage, et cetera, 193 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: et cetera, but that doesn't seem to be the what 194 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: dictates the voting behavior. 195 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 8: Yeah, my response to that is that we it's not 196 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 8: surprising because we live we all live in this environment 197 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 8: of engineered division. It's not to cheapen any of those issues. 198 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 8: But do any of us really think that there's a 199 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 8: good faith discussion that the reason why critical race theory 200 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 8: is in the headlines has anything to do with a 201 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 8: good faith discussion about anything in terms of racial equality. 202 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 8: I mean, this is here, this is splashed all across 203 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 8: the headlines with the intent to divide people, not to 204 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 8: have a good faith conversation that should be part of 205 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 8: building race and class solidarity. What we hear is you know, 206 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 8: a know, divide and conquer tactic. I mean, there's a 207 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 8: small group one percent of the people, the merchant class 208 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 8: is the super rich they want to run things, they 209 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 8: don't have enough numbers to do that, so they have 210 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 8: to divide the working class and add their one percent 211 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 8: to the fifty percent that hates the other fifty percent. 212 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 8: I mean, really, it's simple to me, but I think 213 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 8: we all have to remember that's what's happening and not 214 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 8: take that for granted because it's having you know, it's 215 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 8: keeping us apart, and it's just a false choice. And 216 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 8: we have to if we're going to break ourselves out 217 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 8: of that, realize who. 218 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 5: The division from. 219 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 8: All of these hot button issues that dominate the press, 220 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 8: that that suck all the air out of the room 221 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 8: that you could use to have a solidarity conversation, we 222 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 8: have to realize who that. 223 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 5: Division is serving. And people are smart. 224 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 8: You know. My beef with all of the videos that 225 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 8: go up to these Trump rallies is it's like, you know, oh, 226 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 8: let's go stare at the zoo animals and let's pick 227 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 8: out the craziest one so we can profit off of 228 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 8: the clicks. Now, if you have a conversation with people 229 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 8: in line, they can understand that they will say that 230 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,719 Speaker 8: back to you. But we got to get our politics 231 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 8: in order. In a hurry to do something a little 232 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 8: more than just react to these hot button things that 233 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 8: are you know, engineered and have been pushed for forty 234 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 8: years and financial billions of dollars to generate the reactions 235 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 8: that we see all the time in our politics. 236 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 5: We got to get beyond that and actually talk to people. 237 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: Yeah we will shut John, Yeah, well John, I've always 238 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 1: appreciated your work, and I do recommend people go check 239 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 1: out the holler on substack because you live from the area, 240 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 1: live in the area, work at a dive bar, like 241 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: it's real for you, and so this image that comes 242 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 1: from partisan media, whether it's you know, MSNBC or Fox 243 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: News of like, oh my god, we're on the verge 244 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: of civil war now. 245 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 4: I live in a conservative area as well, where I 246 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 4: grew up born and raised. 247 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: I used to live actually in the area where you live, 248 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: and we're born and raised now, and it never struck 249 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: me as being accurate. It never struck me as like 250 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: a reflection of the people that I know and interact 251 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: with and friends with in my day to day life. 252 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: So I appreciate you doing some work to highlight some 253 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: of the areas where there's potential common ground and things 254 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: that we could build from It's always great to see you. 255 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 5: Thanks for having me on. 256 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 3: Thanks ma'am. 257 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: Interesting little catch on a new line in zooms terms 258 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: of service. Trust me, this is interesting. I know it 259 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: sounds like a very boring setup, but put this up 260 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: on the screen. So they are now saying in their 261 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: terms of service that you have to allow AI to 262 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: train on all your data, audio, facial recognition, private conversations, 263 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: unconditionally and irrevocably, with no opt out. 264 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 4: Let me just read you. 265 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: The specific lines here, So keep this up on the screen. 266 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: They say, quote, you consent to Zoom's access use, collection, creation, modification, distribution, processing, sharing, 267 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: maintenance and storage of service generated data. So that means 268 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: when you're on Zoom and you're like doing your thing, 269 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: they're collecting all of that for any purpose to the 270 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: extent and in the manner permitted under applicable law machine 271 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: and it's to be used for machine learning or artificial intelligence, 272 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: including for the purposes of training and tuning of algorithms 273 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: and models. This is something that I've been focused on 274 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: a lot. I mean, this is a whole new world 275 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: because the way that these new AI large language models 276 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: work is they scoop up the technical term is scrape 277 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: all of this data that they feed into these models 278 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: to train them on human language and information and research 279 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: and creative all of this stuff. And so there's a 280 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: lot of questions about, well, are you just allowed to 281 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: take whatever you want? Sarah Silverman and other comedians and 282 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: writers are pushing back. They're actually suing these big tech 283 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 1: companies to regain you know, to get compensated at the 284 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: very least, or set some sort of legal boundaries around 285 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: what these companies are allowed to scoop up. But Zoom 286 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: clearly working, you know here in Connections saying listen, we 287 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: are going to use anything that you do on our platform. 288 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 4: We are allowed to use in whatever way we want. 289 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is totally crazy. 290 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 2: I'm definitely going to uninstall Zoom or at least try 291 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: to use it as little as possible. 292 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 3: You know, you just never know though. It's like, is 293 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 3: Apple going to do this? You know, who's actually taking 294 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 3: your data? 295 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 2: This is just thankfully this guy was able to catch 296 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 2: it in the terms of service. But that's that's it, 297 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 2: I mean, and this is part of the creepy thing. 298 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 2: You're always being recorded now, You're always, like I was 299 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 2: with some friends, we're staying into Airbnb and we were 300 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 2: out on the porch and one of them was saying 301 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 2: something about his job. He works in a sensitive job. 302 00:14:58,040 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 2: And I was like, hey, man, you shouldn't say that. 303 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: Here he's like talking about I said, look these airbnbs, 304 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 2: these things are all wired with ring cameras. Yeah, sure enough. 305 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 2: I look up, there's like one sitting right there. Wow. 306 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 2: It's like, you know, you have to be kind of 307 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 2: used to this world where there's like a privatized surveillance 308 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 2: regime literally everywhere, and then in the world of AI 309 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 2: they are using that even if the person who owns 310 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 2: the camera is not using it, it lives on the 311 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 2: ring server. 312 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 3: What is Amazon going to do with that? 313 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 2: Maybe they'll feed it into their algorithms to detect stuff. 314 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 2: I mean, we're already at a point where they are 315 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 2: talking about facial recognition and all that stuff for crime. 316 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 2: We know that this happened during the January sixth investigation. 317 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 2: For example, you can read in the indictments they literally 318 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 2: sent images the FBI did to the facial recognition team 319 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 2: and we're able to id people off of that. 320 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 3: That's the government. 321 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 2: I mean, they have all of our you know, from 322 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 2: licenses from passport photos, all kinds of information that they're 323 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 2: ready to tap with zero warrant or any of that. 324 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: And that's you know, you know, in terms of how 325 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 2: the government is and who's stopping them from contracting some 326 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 2: of the sperms and all these other end to get more. 327 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 3: So it's a creepy situation. 328 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: Extremely it also shows you how almost inherently exploited of 329 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: these terms of service contracting are I mean you just 330 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: you know, you download zoom they say like check the 331 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: box that you agree. Who is really reading through the 332 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: thirty pages or whatever a fine print of what exactly 333 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: you're signing up for? And what choice do you have 334 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: if you're you know, going to be a breaking points 335 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: guest and we're like here's your Zoom link. Are you 336 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: really going to be like, oh, I can't do this 337 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: segment now because I don't agree with you know, paragraph 338 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: thirty two, subsection B, part seven of the terms of service. 339 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 4: No one is doing that. 340 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: So basically, they set the rules and you have no 341 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: choice if you're going to live in modern society but 342 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: to agree to them. And sometimes those those rules are 343 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: really dystopian and disturbing, as in this case. 344 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally so anyway, raising awareness. Fascinating and crazy story 345 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: going on with We Work. As if the saga can't 346 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 2: can still continue, just put this up there on the screen. 347 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 2: We Work is warning of bankruptcy after years of losses 348 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 2: and warns that the cancelation rate of current clients makes 349 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 2: it so that it may be unsustainable to continue the business. 350 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 2: So in a new filing to the SEC, the company 351 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 2: said it had posted Crystal a net loss of seven 352 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 2: hundred million in the first six months of twenty twenty three, 353 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: after recording ten point seven billion in net loss over 354 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 2: the previous three years. Quote, our losses and negatives cattionals 355 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 2: from operating activities raised substantial doubt about our ability to 356 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 2: continue as a growing concern. 357 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, you might call that a growing concern in business. 358 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 2: The company reported it has two point nine billion in 359 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 2: long term debt as of June thirtieth. So this is 360 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 2: just the latest casualty of the work from home crisis. 361 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 2: This in commercial real estate. A lot of people Crystal 362 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 2: actually thought that we Work would survive work from home 363 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 2: because they were like, oh, well, the flexible business model 364 00:17:57,760 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 2: means that you know, people only need a place like 365 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 2: one or just times a week. 366 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 3: They don't need to. 367 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 2: Use it as much, and there was a good argument 368 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 2: for it, except reality is caught up and it turns 369 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 2: out that people really aren't coming in at all or 370 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 2: just like basically defaulting into like coffee shops, and this 371 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 2: entire business may collapse completely, which is crazy considering the 372 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 2: entire history of this company. 373 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: I mean, this was such a hot company for a while. 374 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: The CEO did great job creating this whole like hip 375 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: image around it, you know, huge investments that came in. 376 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: They quote an expert here who I think really sums 377 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: it up, who says they were brilliant in creating an 378 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: aura of being the next big thing, but they were 379 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: never financially successful. So even at the height of the 380 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: we work hype cycle, they were not really making it. 381 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: And so now in the pandemic when workers were forced 382 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 1: to work from home and then decided that hey, I 383 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: actually kind of like this at least hybrid remote work situation, 384 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: and you have massive office vacancy rates. You know, when 385 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: people say like work from home, they don't mean work 386 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,959 Speaker 1: from we work. They have increasingly set up their own 387 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: dedicated spaces in their houses or apartments where they have 388 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 1: an office setup where they are comfortable and able to 389 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: then manage some of their like personal life responsibilities more adequately. So, yeah, 390 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: people aren't really interested in commuting into where we work 391 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: in the same way they're not interested in commuting into. 392 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 3: Their office, exactly correct. And the other thing that's very interesting. 393 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at the history of this company, 394 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 2: I don't know why it was obsessible we work for 395 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 2: a while. There's a bunch of great books on we work. 396 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 2: There's like four or five out there. The Apple series. 397 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 2: Jared Leto plays Adam Newman, and his Anne Hathway does 398 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 2: an incredible job of playing his wife Gwydeth Really no, sorry, 399 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 2: not Gwenda Paltrow. 400 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 3: Gwidea Paltrow's cousin life, who certainly makes it known throughout 401 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 3: her life that she is Paltrow. 402 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 2: Interesting though, is that this company was basically the poster 403 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 2: child of the. 404 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 3: Zero interest rate phenomenon. 405 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 2: Where we Work basically fooled its investors, which, look, it's 406 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 2: a good idea, let's be honest. But you know, there's 407 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 2: a lot of other companies out there that do what 408 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 2: they do. Industrious Green whatever, Green Desk, I think that 409 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 2: was one of their original name, etc. 410 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 3: What they did is they fooled people in thinking. 411 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 2: They were technology company by saying they were going to 412 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 2: have proprietary whatever linked up the startup movement. They were 413 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 2: getting forty times multiples, even though I think it was 414 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 2: Scott Galloway actually wrote at the time, He's like, this 415 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 2: is just a commercial real estate company. 416 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 3: He's like, why is this being valued as. 417 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 2: A startup because the upside of startup actually exists in software. 418 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 3: This is not a software multiple. This is just rent. 419 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 2: And Adam Newman convinced soft Bank to basically give it 420 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 2: billions of dollars and effectively like throw it away and 421 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 2: buy a bunch of leases. The only reason Crystal that 422 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 2: this company had any value whatsoever, even post Newman crash, 423 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 2: was because he had spent such colossal sums of money 424 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 2: going out and acquiring leases at all these buildings that 425 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 2: when you write down the forty billion or whatever valuation 426 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 2: back to whatever the sane one was, they're like, yeah, 427 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 2: maybe we can actually squeeze some value out of this thing. 428 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 3: I believe they went public Vice. 429 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 2: Back for I think a fraction of what they originally wanted, 430 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,120 Speaker 2: but they still have so much debt on their books 431 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 2: that the company still looks like it could fail. Yeah, 432 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 2: seven hundred million dollar loss, even after all the riote offs, 433 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: all the layoffs and all the other nonsense. So it's 434 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 2: it's a massive indictment of business and venture capital and 435 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 2: the venture capital just like banks, everybody was willing to 436 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 2: give this guy money, Masayoshi san over at SoftBank, all 437 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 2: of the you know, foolishness that they were up to 438 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: in the twenty tens with we Work and with Uber, 439 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 2: both which the Saudis were also invested in. Yeah, look, 440 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 2: reality eventually catches up. That's we're finding out here Uber. 441 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 2: Even by the way, in a lot of their filings, 442 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 2: they're still burning through cash like nobody's business. 443 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 3: It's like, when is this company going to turn a profit? 444 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 5: Right? 445 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: A lot of and you pointed to the zero indust 446 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 1: rate from That's exactly what it is. Because when money 447 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: is super cheap, then these funders is like, all right, well, 448 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: let's just keep floating them, Let's keep funneling more cash 449 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: into them, and they can keep you know, servicing their 450 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: interest payments on their debt et cetera, et cetera. Now 451 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: that interest rates have gone up quite a bit, you 452 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 1: see a lot of these I mean this is not 453 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: a tech company, as you pointed out, but it positioned 454 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,719 Speaker 1: itself as tech adjacent by creating this certain brand and 455 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 1: a certain look in the space, like let's put in 456 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 1: beanbag chairs and have an app for it and convince 457 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: you it's a tech company. It kind of reminds me 458 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 1: of a little bit of what's happening right now with 459 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: the AI craze, where it's like every startup is like, 460 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: let's find some way to position ourselves as AI related 461 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: in order to get funding. So, to be honest with you, 462 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: I sort of thought that they already were headed to 463 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: bankruptcy a long time ago, but it makes sense that 464 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: Covid would be and the work from home remote work 465 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: revolution would be the death now for this company. 466 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, it's a sad end, to be honest. 467 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 2: There are a lot of people who put their whole 468 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 2: life savings in this company, worked at the company, believed 469 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 2: in Adam Newman, investors, all those A lot of those 470 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 2: people already went pretty bust and now to go all 471 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: the way to zero, that's a really ignominious end to 472 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 2: the story. But anyway I said, I genuinely encourage people 473 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 2: to watch that mini series. 474 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 3: It's very good. The acting in it is incredible. 475 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 9: Excuse me, guys, are you guys together? Have you guys 476 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 9: ever been divorced? Have you been divorced? 477 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 7: Have been divorced? 478 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 4: Excuse me? 479 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 9: Have either of you ever been divorced? It might be 480 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 9: sensitive because you're to get divorced. It's not just something 481 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 9: that your parents constantly reassure you wasn't your fault, even 482 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 9: when you're not asking. It's also something that's political. I 483 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 9: eat divorced laws. Who can get divorced? 484 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 3: Who can't get divorced? 485 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 7: Well? 486 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 9: Wait, what do you mean can't get divorced? Is it 487 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 9: a thing to want a divorce but not be able 488 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 9: to get one? And what does that sound like to you? 489 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 9: Does that sound like a curtailing of freedom? The idea 490 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 9: of not being able to leave a marriage because some 491 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 9: people think there are too many divorces, that divorce laws 492 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 9: have gotten out of hand and we should go back 493 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 9: to the old way. But what does that even mean? 494 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 9: So there's something called no fault divorces opposed to fault 495 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 9: based divorce. Do you know what no fault divorces? 496 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like without a reason, right. 497 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 9: No fault divorce is what you file when you just 498 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 9: want to dissolve your marriage, and you're not trying to 499 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 9: assign blame to anyone. No one committed any mortal sins 500 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 9: against your marriage. I mean maybe they did, but you 501 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 9: just want to move on, so you file no fault 502 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 9: divorce and let it be done. But for most of 503 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 9: history that has not been the case. Do you think 504 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 9: one person should be allowed to leave no matter what 505 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 9: the other person thinks? 506 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 6: No, no, No. 507 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 5: That's too free, it's too liberal, it's just too. 508 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 9: Up until the eighteen hundreds in England, it was basically 509 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 9: impossible to get divorced. The law was such that a 510 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 9: woman was, in a sense property of the man, and 511 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 9: you can imagine how that might affect one's autonomy. So 512 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 9: actually you had to get Parliament to approve divorces. Only 513 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 9: about ten were passed in Parliament each year, and they 514 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 9: were available only to the very wealthy, because if you're rich, 515 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 9: you can do whatever you want. And that's always been true. Now, 516 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 9: in the US, divorce has always been left to the states, 517 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 9: and going into the nineteenth century, grounds for divorce were expanding. 518 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 9: This worried some people. In eighteen forty seven, the Missouri 519 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 9: Supreme Court noted that too great a facility in obtaining 520 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 9: divorces is exceedingly injurious to the good morals and happiness 521 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 9: of domestic life. Now, to many of us, divorce is 522 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 9: just something you do when your first family finds out 523 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 9: about your second family, and it's basically no big deal. 524 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 9: But many people are still worried about the deletarious effects 525 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 9: of divorce. Conservative commentators like Ben Shapiro and Timpoole and 526 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 9: Stephen Crowder have all essentially blamed no fault divorce for 527 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 9: family breakdown. 528 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 10: Hi, this is Office of Commerce and Nadler. 529 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 9: Hi, I'm a constituent. Basically, I'm calling because my wife 530 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 9: is trying to divorce me, and I'm just wondering what 531 00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 9: the congressman can do about that. 532 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 7: So unfortunately, we're only able to assist with federal agencies. 533 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 9: Okay, thank you so much. 534 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: Of course, take care of me. 535 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 10: Bye. 536 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 9: One person in the Washington Examiner frames the fact that 537 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 9: your spouse can divorce you unilaterally as a violation of 538 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 9: your constitutional rights. The fourteenth Amendment mandates that no person 539 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 9: be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process 540 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 9: of the law, but spouse's sued for divorce have no 541 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 9: right to their day in court, no weighing of evidence 542 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 9: takes place. Only one spouse need allege without proof or 543 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 9: specificity irreconcilable differences, or that the marriage has irrevocably broken down, 544 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 9: or Stephen Crowder saying my then wife decided that she 545 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 9: didn't want to be married anymore, and in the state 546 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 9: of Texas that is completely permitted now. The first no 547 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 9: fault divorce law was signed by Ronald Reagan in California 548 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 9: in nineteen sixty nine. What was the last thing, Oh, state? 549 00:26:58,920 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 11: That was Idaho? 550 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 3: It's good, yuess, it's actually New York. 551 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,439 Speaker 11: You know a year New York U. 552 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 8: Seventy nine. 553 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 3: No, No, that's not true. 554 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 9: But there are still obstacles to getting divorced. I recently 555 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 9: sat down with Naomi Khan, co director of University of 556 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 9: Virginia Law's Family Law Center, to get some clarification on 557 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 9: this stuff. 558 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 11: No fault in most states does not mean that you 559 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 11: just drive down to the court, say to the clerk, 560 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 11: I want a divorce, and you're divorced two minutes later. 561 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 11: In some limited circumstances, in some states it can be 562 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 11: much quicker, but in many states, if not most states, 563 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 11: there needs to be some waiting period. There needs to 564 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 11: be some separation or there needs to be a finding 565 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 11: of irreconcilable differences before a divorce can be issued. 566 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 9: It depends on the state. But if you live and 567 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 9: say Louisiana, you and your spouse must have lived separate 568 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,199 Speaker 9: and apart for three hundred and sixty five days, if 569 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 9: you have children, one hundred and eighty days. 570 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 3: If you don't, what about. 571 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 4: Waiting periods for getting a divorce, You mean. 572 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 6: Like you have to be separated for a year or 573 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 6: something like that. 574 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 8: Ambivalent on that, I'd. 575 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 9: Say, if there's a mutual decision and there's no love loss, 576 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 9: then they shouldn't be a witless. 577 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 11: Fer A waiting period could if anything, if it's a 578 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 11: high conflict divorce, it could make the conflict become even 579 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 11: more extreme. To think about where there's violence, think about 580 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 11: where there's another relationship. But it's very hard to do 581 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 11: these to do these studies, and so we don't really 582 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 11: have great statistics on whether a waiting period would help. 583 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 9: Waiting periods are especially a thing in covenant marriages. What 584 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 9: is a covenant marriage? People in a covenant marriage who 585 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 9: want a divorce must go through marriage counseling and be 586 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 9: separated for at least eighteen months if they have underage children. 587 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 9: In other cases, including those involving spousal or child abuse, 588 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,239 Speaker 9: couples in covenant marriages have to be separated for at 589 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 9: least a year before a divorce can be granted. 590 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 3: If there's an abuse involved. 591 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 5: I with who daughter when is married out? 592 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 3: O U T out capital let is out. 593 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 9: So that's in Louisiana and covenant marriage is only in 594 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 9: three states and almost no one chooses that option, but 595 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 9: some people love the idea. The Texas GOP recently added 596 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 9: to its party platform. We urge the legislature to rescind 597 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 9: unilateral no fault divorce laws to support covenant marriage, and 598 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 9: to pass legislation extending the period of time in which 599 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 9: a divorce may occur to six months after the date 600 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 9: of filing for divorce. 601 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 11: It's not finding very few people opt into the covenant marriage, 602 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 11: but three states do have that as as an option. 603 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 9: Steven Crowder also lays out this scenario. If a woman 604 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 9: cheats on you, she leaves, she takes half. 605 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 11: States will divide something that they call either community property 606 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 11: or marital property, and that generally speaking will be the 607 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 11: property that was acquired by either spouse through the efforts 608 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 11: of either spouse during the course of the marriage. In 609 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 11: some states, there's a presumption of equal division. In most 610 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 11: states there is not its equitable and equitable can made 611 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 11: that one spouse would get seventy percent of the assets 612 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 11: and the other would get thirty, but it's up to 613 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 11: the court or Since about ninety five percent of divorce 614 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 11: cases settle, it's up to the people or to their 615 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 11: attorneys doing the negotiation. 616 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 9: Who would actually be impacted by going back to a 617 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:40,959 Speaker 9: no fault system. 618 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 11: There's been some evidence that the introduction of no fault 619 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 11: divorce has actually led to a reduction of female suicide. 620 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 9: That's right. In states that introduced a unilateral divorce, we 621 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 9: find an eight to sixteen percent decline in females suicide, 622 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 9: roughly a thirty percent decline in domestic violence for both 623 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 9: men and women, and a ten percent decline in females 624 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 9: murdered by their partners. Domestic violence appears to have declined 625 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 9: by somewhere between a quarter and a half between nineteen 626 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 9: seventy six and nineteen eighty five in those states that 627 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 9: reformed their divorce laws. So, despite this available data and 628 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 9: the massive inconvenience getting divorced already is. There are a 629 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 9: number of legislators who are pushing for this. The Nebraska 630 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 9: GOP has affirmed its belief that no fault divorce should 631 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 9: only be accessible to couples without children. Louisiana is debating 632 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 9: whether to recommend the elimination of no fault divorce. Senator 633 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 9: from Ohio jd Vance said, these marriages were fundamentally you know, 634 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 9: they were maybe even violent, but certainly they were unhappy, 635 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 9: and so getting rid of them and making it easier 636 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 9: for people to shift spouses like they changed their underwear, 637 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 9: that's going to make people happier in the long term. 638 00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 9: And maybe it worked out for the moms and dads, 639 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 9: though I'm skept to call, but it really didn't work 640 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 9: out for the kids of those marriages. Now, I've seen 641 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 9: no data supporting the idea that making it harder for 642 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 9: people to get divorced helps anyone, and that maintaining some 643 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 9: family unit, even though it's terribly acrimonious or maybe even violent, 644 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 9: offers any benefit to the parents or the kids. What 645 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 9: if only one person doesn't want to be in that 646 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 9: relationship anymore. 647 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 10: You can't force you can't force that person to stay 648 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 10: in the relationship they don't want anymore. You can try 649 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 10: as much as you want, but if that's their. 650 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 3: Decision, you have to get divorced. 651 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,959 Speaker 10: But you have to mutually respect that person's decision. If 652 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 10: they don't want to be with you anymore, you can't 653 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 10: force them. 654 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 9: Historically, stricter divorce laws haven't even done a great job 655 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 9: of keeping people from getting divorced. In the eighteen fifties, 656 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 9: Indiana was known as a divorce mill because of its 657 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 9: lacks divorce laws, so they ended up dealing with what 658 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 9: they called migratory divorce. And so the thing here is 659 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 9: that most divorces are mutually upon, so couples just figure 660 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 9: out how to make it happen. Couples often colluded to 661 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 9: attain a divorce the state did not want them to have, 662 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 9: and divorce became increasingly easy to obtain. Collusion was the norm. 663 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 9: For example, in New York, you could only get a 664 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 9: divorce on grounds of adultery, so an entire cottage industry 665 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 9: had developed to fabricate evidence of adultery that could be 666 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 9: used in divorce court. Okay, now, despite there certainly being 667 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 9: people in power and even federally who seem unhappy with 668 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 9: divorce laws as they stand. This is right now, not 669 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 9: a top concern for lawmakers. This still seems pretty fringe, 670 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 9: although you never know how things can change. And to 671 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 9: my knowledge, no presidential candidate has mentioned this, but if 672 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 9: they have and I'm wrong, leave a comment down below. 673 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 9: If you had any thoughts on this at all, leave 674 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 9: a comment. If you didn't like my hair, leave a comment. Share, 675 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 9: Subscribe to Breaking Points so you don't miss videos like this. 676 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 9: We also have a personal YouTube channel that will be 677 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 9: linked below in the description. Thank you to Breaking Points. 678 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 9: Thank you for watching, and I'll see in the next one.