WEBVTT - The Tiktok Zoomer Bin Laden Episode

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<v Speaker 1>Al Zon Media.

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<v Speaker 2>There is America hit by God in one of its

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<v Speaker 2>softest spots. Its greatest buildings were destroyed. Thank God for that.

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<v Speaker 2>There is America full of fear, from its north to

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<v Speaker 2>its south, from its west to its east. Thank God

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<v Speaker 2>for that. What America is tasting now with something insignificant

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<v Speaker 2>to what we have tasted for scores of years. Our

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<v Speaker 2>nation has been tasting this humiliation and this degradation for

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<v Speaker 2>more than eighty years. Its sons are killed, its blood

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<v Speaker 2>is shed, its sanctuaries are attacked, and no one hears,

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<v Speaker 2>and no one heeds. Those words, written by Osama bin

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<v Speaker 2>Laden in October seventh, two thousand and one, were part

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<v Speaker 2>of his first statement issued after the nine to eleven attacks.

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<v Speaker 2>You might notice a few things about that. One is,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, the glorying over the deaths of several thousand people.

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<v Speaker 2>And another is that when it comes to his analysis

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<v Speaker 2>of the cutrual and psychological impact of nine to eleven

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<v Speaker 2>on the United States, he was more or less right.

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<v Speaker 2>This is it could happen here A podcast about things

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<v Speaker 2>falling apart and nothing better embodies the slow, sometimes rapid

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<v Speaker 2>collapse of the United States. As our reaction to nine

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<v Speaker 2>to eleven and our continuing responses to it. And so

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<v Speaker 2>today I've got in the studio. We don't actually have

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<v Speaker 2>a studio. I've got Miya, I've got James, and I've

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<v Speaker 2>got Garrison, and we're going to talk about something you've

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<v Speaker 2>probably encountered, which is that a letter to America written

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<v Speaker 2>by osamaban Lan, which is a different piece from the

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<v Speaker 2>one I started this reading, but written along broadly similar lines,

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<v Speaker 2>has started to go viral on TikTok, and if you've

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<v Speaker 2>seen the reactions to it, it's a mix of a

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<v Speaker 2>bunch of you younger people on TikTok reading this letter

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<v Speaker 2>for the first time where bin Laden explains why he

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<v Speaker 2>did he believed nine to eleven to be justified, and

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<v Speaker 2>going wow, he has a point, some of them saying

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<v Speaker 2>stuff that's more unhinged than that even and then you've

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<v Speaker 2>got this chorus of responses from both kind of centrist

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<v Speaker 2>you know, media figures, cultural commentators, pundits, and of course

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<v Speaker 2>right wing shitheads who are all making this out to

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<v Speaker 2>be the left looves Osama bin Laden. We're going to

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<v Speaker 2>get into kind of where the truth lies in this

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<v Speaker 2>and also what is in the letter to America but yeah, welcome,

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to the pod everyone.

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<v Speaker 3>Thanks Robert, horrible to be here.

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<v Speaker 2>How did you How did you all hear about this,

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<v Speaker 2>this new fun trend on the internet.

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<v Speaker 3>I returned from spending my evening volunteering the border in

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<v Speaker 3>Cucumber to find a dearth of messages about an Issama

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<v Speaker 3>bin laden letter or the speech that you just read

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<v Speaker 3>the ive a sign for probably a decade to undergraduates

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<v Speaker 3>without anyone losing their mind. And yeah, extremely confusing vibes

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<v Speaker 3>for me.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>The first time I heard about it was the first

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<v Speaker 4>post that I saw was it was only about a

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<v Speaker 4>million views. It wasn't even that viral, which I guess

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<v Speaker 4>might be true because TikTok is nuts. But yeah, I

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<v Speaker 4>think it. I don't know, like I first ran into

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<v Speaker 4>it on Twitter, and I think by the time it

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<v Speaker 4>hit Twitter, everyone was just sort of in about eighteen

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<v Speaker 4>directions completely losing their minds, which is yeas it is now.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and I think probably a couple of videos of

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<v Speaker 3>people dying just seems to pop up every time something

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<v Speaker 3>discussed on Twitter.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, I think that's an accurate description of kind of

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<v Speaker 2>the fallout to it. And as we're writing the or

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<v Speaker 2>as we're recording this. Most of these original TikTok videos,

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<v Speaker 2>people seem to be reading off of The Guardian's copy

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<v Speaker 2>of a Letter to America, which was I guess the

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<v Speaker 2>most easy to google prior to I think it was

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<v Speaker 2>just the easiest to google. When this all started rolling,

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<v Speaker 2>the Guardian took that down because they didn't want people

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<v Speaker 2>reading it outside of the context of the article it's in.

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<v Speaker 2>This was a horrible mistake. I have found a number

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<v Speaker 2>of comments being like, this is them. They're trying to

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<v Speaker 2>stop you from reading Ben Laden's words. We're all gonna

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<v Speaker 2>be on a watch list. They can't arrest all of us.

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<v Speaker 3>You can.

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<v Speaker 2>You can still access the Letter to America.

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<v Speaker 3>It's on the sentiment that you can't arrest one of

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<v Speaker 3>us suggested that many of these people were not alive

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<v Speaker 3>in the media off to moth of them will fucking try.

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<v Speaker 3>They did try.

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<v Speaker 2>Just to be very clear, you can still read this

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<v Speaker 2>whole letter to yourself, and so can everyone else. It's

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<v Speaker 2>on Wiki source. If you just google Binladen Letter to America,

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<v Speaker 2>it will bring up the Wikipedia page that talks about

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<v Speaker 2>this this letter and its context, and that will also

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<v Speaker 2>give you a link at somewhere at the bottom to

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<v Speaker 2>the wiki source. That's just the unedited translation of the

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<v Speaker 2>letter to the American people. So it is not like

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<v Speaker 2>the Guardian's move was bad because of they called the

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<v Speaker 2>Streisand principle right that if you like try to hide

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<v Speaker 2>something from people on the internet, it just it just

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<v Speaker 2>makes the problem worse. You never do what the Guardian did.

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<v Speaker 2>It's very dumb.

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<v Speaker 3>It was explain the Guardian of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>action yeah. Sur I was gonna say, yeah, they could

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<v Speaker 3>have blamed trans people. I'm surprised he didn't get one

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<v Speaker 3>of those in there.

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<v Speaker 2>They've been everyone's been trying to pivot very quickly to this.

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<v Speaker 2>So obviously you know, my like James, my opinions on

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<v Speaker 2>this are kind of complex. On one hand, I am

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<v Speaker 2>not an Osama bin laden Fan. He was a bad person.

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<v Speaker 2>He was a terrible person, and he did a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of damage, not just to the United States. That said,

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<v Speaker 2>I've also long been an advocate for like, he's probably

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<v Speaker 2>going to go down as one of the most effective

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<v Speaker 2>and intelligent military strategic minds of the twenty first century.

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<v Speaker 2>The September eleventh attacks worked in large part right because

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<v Speaker 2>of how we re reacted because of the amount of

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<v Speaker 2>money that we spent, the amount of people that we killed,

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<v Speaker 2>the amount of anger that we engendered against the West,

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<v Speaker 2>and the amount of damage that we did to our

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<v Speaker 2>own society. A lot of the fallout that we're seeing

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<v Speaker 2>and all these you know, right wing street gangs and shit,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of it traces back to fall out from

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<v Speaker 2>the wars that were started by the Bush administration after

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<v Speaker 2>September eleventh. So and that was that was part of

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<v Speaker 2>the stated goal, right that was one of the things

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<v Speaker 2>he was looking to provoke a reaction. So I'm I'm

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<v Speaker 2>both like glad. Hopefully some people are going to come

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<v Speaker 2>away from this with a more nuanced understanding of the guy.

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<v Speaker 2>And when I say nuanced, I don't mean in a

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<v Speaker 2>moral sense, because it's bad to kill thousands of random people,

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<v Speaker 2>but in the sense of, like, oh, this was not

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<v Speaker 2>I think I need to play something for you guys,

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<v Speaker 2>because like, as a nine to eleven, like I was

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<v Speaker 2>like nine or ten when it happened, So I remember

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<v Speaker 2>it all very well, and I remember the reaction to it,

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<v Speaker 2>and I remember the propaganda we encountered. And there's this

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<v Speaker 2>thing that you will find written about fascists pretty regularly,

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<v Speaker 2>which is that they both need an all powerful enemy,

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<v Speaker 2>but they also need an enemy that's like fundamentally free

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<v Speaker 2>of virtue, and intelligence and skill are virtues. So both

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<v Speaker 2>in the wake of nine to eleven, you got this

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<v Speaker 2>sort of al Qaeda and you know, larger sort of

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<v Speaker 2>Islamist movements were considered this nefarious force as they are

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<v Speaker 2>now in the wake of the attacks by Hamas, right,

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<v Speaker 2>this nefarious force that is capable of infiltrating the US

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<v Speaker 2>border and seeking terrorist sales into the United States to

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<v Speaker 2>hit anybody. And at the same time they're like primitive

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<v Speaker 2>idiots who are bigots against who are you know, they

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<v Speaker 2>hate women and all this stuff, right, Like, you can't

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<v Speaker 2>you can't see them as capable or intelligent, because then

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<v Speaker 2>that would that would be to give them a virtue

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<v Speaker 2>that you reserve for yourself. Anyway, I think a good

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<v Speaker 2>example of that is this parody song by John Valby

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<v Speaker 2>that I encountered in a napster download when I was

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<v Speaker 2>a child, and it's Bin Laden.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh it's the other one.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, Okay, yeah, this one's bad, folks. You're gonna hear

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<v Speaker 2>something offensive. I'm playing it now because number one, I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's something people should remember or no. But also

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<v Speaker 2>because we're about to place these TikTok responses to this

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<v Speaker 2>bin Laden video and reads some comments of people who

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<v Speaker 2>are very taken by it. And I want to set

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<v Speaker 2>up what the pre existing image of bin Laden was

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<v Speaker 2>and our culture kind of prior to this reappraisal of him,

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<v Speaker 2>because I think that is important. But this is unhinged

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<v Speaker 2>so and and it's pretty offensive. So just be aware people,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm about to play it now. Wait, oh yeah, no,

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<v Speaker 2>you're gonna have all right? Can you see the giant

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<v Speaker 2>Confederate So this is from a John Valby album. I

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<v Speaker 2>think it was called Real Women Do Play in Mud Puddles.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, maybe not. That may just be a

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<v Speaker 2>random image I did not check. There's like describe there's

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<v Speaker 2>the general lee as a mudding truck with a giant

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<v Speaker 2>Confederate flag behind it and then with the Confederate flag

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<v Speaker 2>like colors the text real women do play in mud

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<v Speaker 2>puddles and it's as Southern girls girl on the on

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<v Speaker 2>the windshield of the truck. So I'm gonna start playing

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<v Speaker 2>this song. I'm not gonna play all of it, but

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<v Speaker 2>this should set up for you kind of what the

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<v Speaker 2>acceptable discourse on Ben Laden was right after nine to eleven.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, we come from Alabama, but we're in Afghanistan, Navy

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<v Speaker 1>Shield and.

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<v Speaker 2>Dreamer Rays hunting for a man.

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<v Speaker 3>They say he.

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<v Speaker 2>Has a bearded face of diaper on his head.

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<v Speaker 5>I heard we won't be coming home until that fucker's dead.

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<v Speaker 1>No, don't do.

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<v Speaker 3>I've come to fuck your fanny with.

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<v Speaker 1>Some and frax on my name.

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<v Speaker 2>So had you guys heard that before?

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<v Speaker 1>No?

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<v Speaker 4>Unfortunately?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, wow, yeah, see.

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<v Speaker 3>This is the part of America but I missed growing

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<v Speaker 3>up abroad. Yeah, never fully understand now.

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<v Speaker 2>We freezed about thirty seconds into that minute and thirty

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<v Speaker 2>second song, but it was like playing random clips of

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<v Speaker 2>art to go along with the music. And the one

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<v Speaker 2>we paused on was Homer Simpson with an American flag

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<v Speaker 2>behind him, outlined and read with a pistol in his

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<v Speaker 2>hands aimed at a bug eyed Osama bin Laden. So

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<v Speaker 2>great nuanced discourse here, so.

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<v Speaker 4>Many memories like I don't know what it was. People

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<v Speaker 4>loved that, like bug ey'd bin Luden thing. This is

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<v Speaker 4>like like, yeah, I.

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<v Speaker 3>Don't know what.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I think I know, well, I'm pretty sure I

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<v Speaker 2>know why, which is that so. One of the most

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<v Speaker 2>popular pieces of like media popular media in response in

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<v Speaker 2>the nine to eleven attacks was an episode of South

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<v Speaker 2>Park that came out literally like a week or two

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<v Speaker 2>after the attacks, which basically, up until fairly recently, TV

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<v Speaker 2>was always made on a significant delay, so there were

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<v Speaker 2>no shows on air that could pivot to comment on

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<v Speaker 2>something really quickly. The West Wing managed to kind of,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was like a dog shit episode. But the

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<v Speaker 2>South Park guys really pivoted and they put out this episode.

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<v Speaker 2>It was basically like a Bugs Bunny cartoon with Cartman

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<v Speaker 2>as Bugs Bunny and Osama bin Laden as Elmer Fudd, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and there were a bunch of like scenes of him

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<v Speaker 2>like bug eyes bugging out when like shit would happen,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was It was weird because like the I

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<v Speaker 2>think the most people who watched it, including myself, took

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<v Speaker 2>it in the same manner of that song as like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>fuck these guys, these like you know in ways that

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<v Speaker 2>we're pretty bigoted. There was also like the episode opened

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<v Speaker 2>with an extended bit of kids in Afghanistan with everything

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<v Speaker 2>around them and all the adults getting murdered by US

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<v Speaker 2>airplanes for no seeming reason, which was like part of

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<v Speaker 2>the anyway whatever. I think one of the was, like

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<v Speaker 2>what we're seeing in some of like why young people

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<v Speaker 2>are reacting to this letter by bin Laden so strongly

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<v Speaker 2>is they've never really gotten to appraise the guy objectively.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm not saying that that's happening across the board now,

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<v Speaker 2>but I don't think the reactions are nearly as unreasonable

0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:51.480
<v Speaker 2>as they're being painted.

0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:55.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he kind of existed an avatar of evil and

0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:58.960
<v Speaker 3>like with zero nuance or complexity, just like, yeah, a

0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:03.040
<v Speaker 3>satanic sort of totem in American culture. Yeah, which is

0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:05.600
<v Speaker 3>why I've always assigned it just like I think it

0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:07.000
<v Speaker 3>behooves us to understand.

0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:11.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I agree entirely. So I went through and I

0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:14.480
<v Speaker 2>looked at some of the tiktoks being made about this,

0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.840
<v Speaker 2>And first off, TikTok does seem to have taken some

0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:19.800
<v Speaker 2>action to try to stop this. I don't think it's

0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:21.600
<v Speaker 2>going to work either. But like when I typed in

0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:25.199
<v Speaker 2>letter to America recently, the text I got on TikTok

0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:27.880
<v Speaker 2>was this phrase may be associated with behavior or content

0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:31.760
<v Speaker 2>that violates our guidelines promoting a safe, positive experiences TikTok's

0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:34.560
<v Speaker 2>top priority. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yah yah. You can still

0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:36.760
<v Speaker 2>find shit by like typing in bin Laden, but it's

0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:40.480
<v Speaker 2>it's not as much shit as findable right now, so

0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:43.760
<v Speaker 2>worth noting. One of the first things I came across

0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:46.360
<v Speaker 2>that was interesting is like, so there's this trend on TikTok.

0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:50.319
<v Speaker 2>If you're not a TikToker, I'm going to play what

0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:53.800
<v Speaker 2>are the people on TikTok. There's a lot of AI

0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:57.000
<v Speaker 2>videos where either the text will be read by AI

0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:00.400
<v Speaker 2>with like images and video clips on screen, or you'll

0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.840
<v Speaker 2>some there's some creepy instances of people just generating AI

0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.439
<v Speaker 2>faces sometimes of like actual murderers and criminals to talk

0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:10.120
<v Speaker 2>about the ship they did. It's really weird. But one

0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:13.120
<v Speaker 2>of the top videos I found on this from about

0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:16.920
<v Speaker 2>a little less than a day ago, is just the

0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.600
<v Speaker 2>entire text of bin Laden's letter to America being read

0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.400
<v Speaker 2>by an AI, and it it sounds weird. I'm going

0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:24.880
<v Speaker 2>to just let everyone get a listen to this.

0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:29.119
<v Speaker 6>In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful,

0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:33.600
<v Speaker 6>permission to fight against disbelievers is given to those believers

0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.199
<v Speaker 6>who are fought against because they have been wronged. And

0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:39.880
<v Speaker 6>surely a law is able to give them believers victory.

0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:42.600
<v Speaker 2>I think it misses some of the some of the

0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:44.600
<v Speaker 2>stirring contexts.

0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:46.479
<v Speaker 3>Delivery.

0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:48.800
<v Speaker 2>No, but you get the responses of this, and like

0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:50.640
<v Speaker 2>one of my favorite ones that I've gotten the screen

0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.520
<v Speaker 2>is chee cheekis Fressa saying y'all are going to hate me,

0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:55.440
<v Speaker 2>but he kind of ate.

0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:56.240
<v Speaker 1>And then the.

0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:59.920
<v Speaker 2>First response is no crumbs, which Garrison has our gins

0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:00.840
<v Speaker 2>it's Sultan.

0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:07.839
<v Speaker 5>That means like, I agree basically, you know, it's it's oh,

0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:09.319
<v Speaker 5>you're twenty one, now you're.

0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:13.559
<v Speaker 3>Out of touch. Yeah. Yeah, the first feeling old moment live.

0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:20.560
<v Speaker 7>I yeah, I think that means he like ate everything

0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:22.720
<v Speaker 7>and there's like no crumbs left.

0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:23.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:25.520
<v Speaker 2>No, oh okay, that's that's good. Very literal.

0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:29.600
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, I think I think that's what it means. But again,

0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:31.400
<v Speaker 7>this is this is very.

0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:33.360
<v Speaker 3>Very very particular culture.

0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:34.360
<v Speaker 2>We're really here.

0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:38.320
<v Speaker 3>It's the bleeding edge. Yeah yeah. The last comment following

0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:42.920
<v Speaker 3>that is bizarre. Trump isn't a good person either. The

0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:45.280
<v Speaker 3>gay people have nothing to do with me. This does

0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:47.800
<v Speaker 3>not say book for Trump. I think you can't read

0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:53.120
<v Speaker 3>see this is you know, it's it's and that's the.

0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.160
<v Speaker 2>Op responding to no crumbs. So I don't know what's

0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:56.760
<v Speaker 2>missing here.

0:14:56.840 --> 0:14:58.440
<v Speaker 7>It's really it's really hard to tell.

0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:03.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think these people may be in a parallel reality.

0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:07.000
<v Speaker 7>I don't think really anyone who's participating in this trend

0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:12.280
<v Speaker 7>is very intelligent or has or has very good media literacy,

0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:18.480
<v Speaker 7>or has really looked into like American imperialism very much. No,

0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:20.680
<v Speaker 7>but we will, we will, We will get to that

0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:21.320
<v Speaker 7>in this Yeah.

0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:21.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.200
<v Speaker 2>So the next comment is so much truth coming out

0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:27.800
<v Speaker 2>this season. And then I appreciated this from Walker. He

0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:29.680
<v Speaker 2>lost me at the end, he being bin laden with

0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.960
<v Speaker 2>the religiously charged homophobia, but that left out he was

0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:36.680
<v Speaker 2>right about everything else, justified and well said, see the

0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:37.200
<v Speaker 2>voice of.

0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:38.600
<v Speaker 3>Reason, the voice. Yeah.

0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:42.520
<v Speaker 5>Well, but also also now we'll get through it. There's

0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:44.600
<v Speaker 5>a few more problems with the letter than that.

0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:48.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'm doing doing like you're doing nine to eleven,

0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:51.880
<v Speaker 3>but with a pride flag is yeah, perfect, And I

0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:52.720
<v Speaker 3>have no notes.

0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:53.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you can't.

0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.320
<v Speaker 7>You can't remove those things from the rest of the letter.

0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.240
<v Speaker 7>In the action, they actually do create a complete hole.

0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:02.680
<v Speaker 7>You can't actually pick and choose little parts that you

0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.520
<v Speaker 7>want it. It's like trying to pick and choose parts

0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:07.720
<v Speaker 7>of qan On. You're like, yeah, well, actually there are

0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.400
<v Speaker 7>rich people who are pedophiles. You're like, well, yes, but

0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:14.880
<v Speaker 7>you can't, Like you can't. That's not giving Qan on

0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.120
<v Speaker 7>The benefit here is these are totally different things.

0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:21.400
<v Speaker 2>And the thing that I think people should be doing,

0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:24.920
<v Speaker 2>just so we're clear on my stands here, is seeing

0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:29.240
<v Speaker 2>bin Laden as an incisive and intelligent actor who had

0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:32.520
<v Speaker 2>a significant degree of understanding of this country and its culture.

0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:36.960
<v Speaker 2>And the terrible things that he did were as effective

0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:39.800
<v Speaker 2>as they were because he understood things about us that

0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:43.640
<v Speaker 2>we should understand about us, right, Otherwise you are not

0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.760
<v Speaker 2>going to be able to successfully act within this culture

0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:51.360
<v Speaker 2>to improve things and reduce harms. You need to understand

0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.400
<v Speaker 2>why what he did worked as well as it did,

0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:56.200
<v Speaker 2>and you need to understand what he knew about us,

0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:59.480
<v Speaker 2>because it's pretty useful stuff to understand. That is different

0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:02.120
<v Speaker 2>from saying that what he is like, you don't have

0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:05.320
<v Speaker 2>to view it as the truth, right because it's it's

0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.879
<v Speaker 2>it's not like the truth in any moral sense, but

0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:10.200
<v Speaker 2>it's the truth in that like if you if you

0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:14.439
<v Speaker 2>read some of Hitler's writings on democracy, Hitler accurately understood

0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.720
<v Speaker 2>the vulnerabilities of a democratic system and how to exploit them.

0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.520
<v Speaker 2>You should understand that you're not saying, wow, he was

0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:24.240
<v Speaker 2>spitting truth. You're just saying, well, some people are, Robert.

0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:27.360
<v Speaker 2>That is a problem. Yeah, some people, in fact are.

0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:29.280
<v Speaker 7>Do you know who else is spitting truth?

0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:32.120
<v Speaker 2>Robert our advertisers, Yes, that is right.

0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:33.280
<v Speaker 5>We are.

0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:37.480
<v Speaker 2>Are we sponsored by the new predition of mine at

0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.480
<v Speaker 2>this point? No, we are sponsored by al Bagdati. He's

0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:45.440
<v Speaker 2>still alive, folks. Mm I don't know. I don't know.

0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:59.159
<v Speaker 2>Here here's the ads. Okay, so we're back. I'm going

0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.280
<v Speaker 2>to play another one of the one of these zoomer

0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:05.639
<v Speaker 2>Bin Laden loving videos for you. Well, no you're not, No,

0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:06.199
<v Speaker 2>I'm not.

0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:13.000
<v Speaker 7>Lots of these videos have also been taken down recently.

0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:18.479
<v Speaker 2>I go, yeah, they which Yeah. I thought this one

0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:20.720
<v Speaker 2>was interesting because it was someone who was like really

0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.119
<v Speaker 2>pro bin Laden, being like, yeah, you know, he was

0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:27.440
<v Speaker 2>completely right about everything. What a genius, So I love him.

0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.360
<v Speaker 2>But all of the comments were people being like, that's

0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:34.120
<v Speaker 2>fucking kind of crazy to say, bro, like, yeah, let's

0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:34.880
<v Speaker 2>take a step back.

0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:35.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:37.480
<v Speaker 4>So the thing this reminds me of this, this is

0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:41.840
<v Speaker 4>a phenomenon I've run into with American maoists. Yeah, we're like, okay,

0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:45.359
<v Speaker 4>they'll read MAO. They'll read MAO saying something that is,

0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:49.840
<v Speaker 4>you know, perfectly reasonable, like you should not talk about

0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:54.359
<v Speaker 4>something unless you've researched it first. Yeah. Now, any normal

0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:58.600
<v Speaker 4>person has heard this when they were like two, But

0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:00.760
<v Speaker 4>these people apparently have never heard this, and they run

0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.240
<v Speaker 4>into it through MAO and they're like, holy shit, maw

0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:04.840
<v Speaker 4>is like the greatest living theorist.

0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:05.919
<v Speaker 2>What's a brilliant thinker?

0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:09.560
<v Speaker 4>You guys need bid LAUNI and tell you the US

0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:11.880
<v Speaker 4>sucks like really.

0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:16.240
<v Speaker 3>Health Yes, people do because they get shit history education

0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:17.320
<v Speaker 3>because their.

0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:19.760
<v Speaker 2>Their education of nine to eleven was the video I

0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:20.840
<v Speaker 2>started this episode.

0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:26.840
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, like we failed as a country, like just completely.

0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:30.680
<v Speaker 3>No, seriously, Like I like a fucking like horse that

0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:32.400
<v Speaker 3>I will whip till it's dead.

0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:32.840
<v Speaker 1>Is that?

0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:36.200
<v Speaker 3>Like in twenty sixteen, there was this huge thing about

0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:38.960
<v Speaker 3>we need to teach history properly and media literacy right

0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:41.160
<v Speaker 3>after Donald Trump got elected because a lot of people

0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:43.439
<v Speaker 3>didn't know what the fuck was going on. We just

0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:45.200
<v Speaker 3>and then we just stopped, and everyone was like, nah,

0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:47.040
<v Speaker 3>fuck it, why not, We'll just keep doing stem stem

0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:51.480
<v Speaker 3>STEM and then like like teaching undergraduates often like intro

0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:54.439
<v Speaker 3>courses for years it's become very clear that we are

0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:58.240
<v Speaker 3>completely failing in the United States to educate people or

0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:00.760
<v Speaker 3>equip them with any understanding of a man history, and

0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:02.200
<v Speaker 3>so they just get propaganda.

0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:04.679
<v Speaker 2>This is a big part of why I focus on

0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:07.960
<v Speaker 2>crypto so much, because James, that is exactly where crypto

0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:10.880
<v Speaker 2>comes from, is we learned a lot of stem shit,

0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.840
<v Speaker 2>but we never learned any humanities or anything. So you

0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:18.240
<v Speaker 2>get people saying stuff like, well, the underlying technology behind

0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:20.399
<v Speaker 2>crypto is so impressive, and it's like, no, it's you

0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:22.640
<v Speaker 2>can't point to a single useful piece of work it's

0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:25.000
<v Speaker 2>ever done. You just find it impressive because there's a

0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:27.640
<v Speaker 2>lot of complex math problems and that's what you that's

0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:29.480
<v Speaker 2>what you value, Like, yes.

0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:34.719
<v Speaker 3>The resultimate, Yeah, the yodd stick of academic achievement or intelligence.

0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:38.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, anyway, speaking of people who are less intelligent than

0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:41.119
<v Speaker 2>a yardstick. It's not exactly what you said, James. But

0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:43.640
<v Speaker 2>I also wanted to play here's a right wing influencer

0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:46.120
<v Speaker 2>who's collected a bunch of these videos. I hadn't run

0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:48.200
<v Speaker 2>into this guy before, but oh no, did they drop

0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:49.960
<v Speaker 2>him too? Are they just purging everything?

0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:53.080
<v Speaker 7>So TikTok has been removing all of this. Almost all

0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:55.800
<v Speaker 7>of the videos associated with this trend you can you

0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:59.480
<v Speaker 7>can find the compilations on Twitter are really some of

0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:01.240
<v Speaker 7>the only Yeah, so these videos are still alive.

0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:03.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and this is a right wing guy. This was

0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:05.320
<v Speaker 2>the right wing guy making fun of it. But man,

0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:07.480
<v Speaker 2>that's interesting because this was, like I found this five

0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:08.000
<v Speaker 2>minutes ago.

0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:10.239
<v Speaker 4>So I mean, I think this is the thing that like,

0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:12.880
<v Speaker 4>it's really hard to talk about this without it being

0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.879
<v Speaker 4>in like an insane right wing thing. But TikTok is

0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:20.280
<v Speaker 4>really Americans only encounter with the way that Chinese style

0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:23.919
<v Speaker 4>censorship works, which is they take a giant hammer and

0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:27.200
<v Speaker 4>they just like hit things with it. Yeah, I supposed

0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:30.400
<v Speaker 4>like it's not it's not like targeted. It's like like

0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:33.000
<v Speaker 4>we found everyone who said the word bin lauded and

0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.440
<v Speaker 4>we band it right, everything associated with the trend, Like, yeah,

0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:38.080
<v Speaker 4>you know, like this is this is the way that

0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:41.240
<v Speaker 4>like censorship stuff tends to work in China because it's

0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:44.639
<v Speaker 4>kind of easy to do and it covers your ass.

0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:48.159
<v Speaker 4>And so now Americans are like experiencing this.

0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:51.120
<v Speaker 3>I'm sorry, I'm just enjoying seeing what Rubberts have suggested

0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:53.639
<v Speaker 3>for other tiktoks. He might like, oh, thank goodness for

0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:57.840
<v Speaker 3>the shower's top shelf products. Yeah, hashtag hadtalk.

0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:01.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm a big fan. I think it's because of

0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:07.840
<v Speaker 2>this person, Earth earth Mother, Earth earth Mother basically who

0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:10.480
<v Speaker 2>actually I brought her up specifically because she was an

0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:14.399
<v Speaker 2>example of like the way this is getting portrayed in

0:22:14.720 --> 0:22:18.720
<v Speaker 2>kind of like particularly like Twitter and more mainstream sort

0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:21.320
<v Speaker 2>of descriptions of it is like all of these gen

0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:24.760
<v Speaker 2>zers are full throat for Osamo. They've all gone crazy,

0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:27.920
<v Speaker 2>and you can certainly find no shortage of those videos.

0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:30.120
<v Speaker 2>I found a bunch of other videos that are more critical.

0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:33.000
<v Speaker 2>It is difficult for me to tell what the preponderance

0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:35.760
<v Speaker 2>of is because there's not no one's basing what they're

0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:38.720
<v Speaker 2>saying on a sentiment analysis. They're basing it on what

0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:43.560
<v Speaker 2>their timelines forwarded them based on their passionate when they

0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:46.560
<v Speaker 2>typed letter to America or whatever into Twitter or into

0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:49.720
<v Speaker 2>a TikTok. But like I ran into this lady's video

0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:52.639
<v Speaker 2>and like so not plenty of these are and I

0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:54.919
<v Speaker 2>found others like this. Plenty of these are like a

0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:58.040
<v Speaker 2>little more critical but not but still yeah, I'll just

0:22:58.080 --> 0:22:58.439
<v Speaker 2>play it.

0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:01.560
<v Speaker 8>Hey, guys, just coming on here to remind y'all that

0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:05.560
<v Speaker 8>Osama bin Laden was still a bad person. Crazy that

0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:07.119
<v Speaker 8>I'm even having to get on here and say this,

0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:10.720
<v Speaker 8>wee like hello, obviously, But I've been seeing a lot

0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:13.320
<v Speaker 8>of people, you know, say that they read Osama Laden's

0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:14.200
<v Speaker 8>letter to America.

0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:18.040
<v Speaker 6>And I've read the letter, and I.

0:23:18.080 --> 0:23:22.040
<v Speaker 8>Understand that a lot of people are getting educated and

0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:25.119
<v Speaker 8>kind of like deconstructing the propaganda that they've grown up

0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:28.160
<v Speaker 8>in living in America. But that does not mean that

0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:32.879
<v Speaker 8>we should mystify these terrible people. But are also criticized

0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:35.040
<v Speaker 8>the West in questions in the West and like how

0:23:35.119 --> 0:23:37.960
<v Speaker 8>we operated over here osam b and LANs doing the

0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:41.320
<v Speaker 8>same thing. It doesn't mean that they are necessarily wrong

0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:43.680
<v Speaker 8>on what they're saying, but it doesn't take away the

0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:48.600
<v Speaker 8>fact that they're sexist, fascist, racist dictator.

0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:51.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I like this lady. That's a good video.

0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:54.160
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, I think she kind of hits on one point

0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:57.960
<v Speaker 7>that I've seen in some of the other like, for

0:23:58.040 --> 0:24:04.240
<v Speaker 7>lack of a better term, pro Sama bin Laden, people

0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:08.280
<v Speaker 7>have been saying how like, well like people have been

0:24:08.280 --> 0:24:11.639
<v Speaker 7>talking about how like they're like finally like seeing past

0:24:11.840 --> 0:24:15.760
<v Speaker 7>us propaganda and they're deconstructing the lies that media has

0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:18.120
<v Speaker 7>told them. And this kind of gets at something that

0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:20.720
<v Speaker 7>we see a lot and kind of in like cult spaces,

0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:27.320
<v Speaker 7>is that you rarely ever just completely disengage from some

0:24:27.359 --> 0:24:29.600
<v Speaker 7>form of propaganda, you jump.

0:24:29.440 --> 0:24:30.880
<v Speaker 3>To a different form of propaganda.

0:24:30.880 --> 0:24:31.560
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely right.

0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:35.440
<v Speaker 7>It's like reading this letter, you're not getting like disillusioned

0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:39.160
<v Speaker 7>from US propaganda. You're now buying into someone else's propaganda.

0:24:39.200 --> 0:24:42.399
<v Speaker 7>Like the letter to America is a completely other version

0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:46.679
<v Speaker 7>of conspiracy riddled propaganda that was put out for a

0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:49.280
<v Speaker 7>political purpose, and to try to engage with it in

0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:52.439
<v Speaker 7>good faith is not the way to approach that text.

0:24:53.800 --> 0:24:55.760
<v Speaker 7>And I think this is a big part of this

0:24:55.840 --> 0:24:59.800
<v Speaker 7>problem is how people's education has worked the past few years,

0:24:59.800 --> 0:25:02.760
<v Speaker 7>because as they should have learned all of the various

0:25:03.200 --> 0:25:06.239
<v Speaker 7>motivations and geo political factors that led to the nine

0:25:06.240 --> 0:25:09.639
<v Speaker 7>to eleven attacks, and instead having Islam bin Lan be

0:25:10.520 --> 0:25:14.760
<v Speaker 7>characterized as this as this like cartoonish evil that hates

0:25:14.800 --> 0:25:17.760
<v Speaker 7>America for freedom and like hates America as a nation

0:25:17.880 --> 0:25:22.919
<v Speaker 7>for its freedom. Like that, Yes, that is propaganda. And

0:25:23.000 --> 0:25:24.639
<v Speaker 7>if that's all you've had your whole life, and you're

0:25:24.680 --> 0:25:26.920
<v Speaker 7>you're you're now seeing this other side. This is probably

0:25:26.960 --> 0:25:30.199
<v Speaker 7>like this is definitely like mind blowing, but like you

0:25:30.240 --> 0:25:33.159
<v Speaker 7>can look into why these things happen without just falling

0:25:33.200 --> 0:25:36.680
<v Speaker 7>for someone else's extremist propaganda, like like yeah, you can.

0:25:36.720 --> 0:25:39.119
<v Speaker 7>You can get into the actual reasons for why this happened,

0:25:39.280 --> 0:25:43.680
<v Speaker 7>how how US imperialism has caused the geopolitical situation coming

0:25:43.680 --> 0:25:46.480
<v Speaker 7>out of the nineties, Like it's it's lots of people

0:25:46.520 --> 0:25:48.880
<v Speaker 7>have already done this reading. There's just there's just plenty

0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:50.960
<v Speaker 7>of people online who have not looked into this because

0:25:51.000 --> 0:25:53.520
<v Speaker 7>they have life, they're doing whatever, like right, they've not

0:25:53.600 --> 0:25:55.600
<v Speaker 7>everyone is like us and spends all of our time

0:25:56.000 --> 0:25:58.680
<v Speaker 7>reading like political extremist literature.

0:25:59.080 --> 0:26:01.959
<v Speaker 2>Not all of us have strong opinions on the different

0:26:02.040 --> 0:26:03.520
<v Speaker 2>eras of bin Laden writing.

0:26:04.080 --> 0:26:08.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah, it's like Tyla Swift in that sense. Yeah, yeah,

0:26:08.720 --> 0:26:09.199
<v Speaker 3>I think there's a.

0:26:09.240 --> 0:26:12.120
<v Speaker 4>There's another There's a thing that's also important here too,

0:26:12.160 --> 0:26:14.560
<v Speaker 4>which is I think you see this a lot in Americans,

0:26:14.560 --> 0:26:20.520
<v Speaker 4>which is that Americans will have this moment where they

0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:23.080
<v Speaker 4>realize that they've been being lied to you by the

0:26:23.119 --> 0:26:27.120
<v Speaker 4>American media, and then the thing this convinces them of

0:26:27.400 --> 0:26:31.280
<v Speaker 4>is that everyone else is telling the truth. Yes, And

0:26:31.280 --> 0:26:36.159
<v Speaker 4>it's like no, every country is doing propaganda. All of

0:26:36.240 --> 0:26:39.520
<v Speaker 4>their media is doing propaganda. Like you can't just sort

0:26:39.520 --> 0:26:44.600
<v Speaker 4>of ping pong from one like countries sort of prop

0:26:44.720 --> 0:26:48.960
<v Speaker 4>media propaganda to another countries because they're all doing it

0:26:49.400 --> 0:26:52.919
<v Speaker 4>and the stuff that they're saying also, is it true.

0:26:52.960 --> 0:26:56.160
<v Speaker 4>You have to actually like you have to actually try

0:26:56.200 --> 0:26:59.520
<v Speaker 4>to work out the sort of the reality of history.

0:26:59.560 --> 0:27:04.000
<v Speaker 4>You can't just rely on reading like some other like

0:27:04.119 --> 0:27:06.200
<v Speaker 4>some other propaganda's version of events.

0:27:06.520 --> 0:27:08.760
<v Speaker 3>But this comes down to like a lack of basic

0:27:08.840 --> 0:27:10.840
<v Speaker 3>understanding of how we do history, which I think is

0:27:10.880 --> 0:27:13.159
<v Speaker 3>not anyone's fault. It's because we don't teach you very

0:27:13.200 --> 0:27:15.800
<v Speaker 3>well at all in schools, but like the lack of

0:27:15.880 --> 0:27:18.480
<v Speaker 3>understanding of the difference between primary and secretary sources, right,

0:27:18.560 --> 0:27:20.879
<v Speaker 3>and like people want to get straight to the source,

0:27:21.040 --> 0:27:24.240
<v Speaker 3>so they'll go and read one historical primary source without

0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:27.680
<v Speaker 3>the adequate secondary context and suddenly be like oh shit,

0:27:28.359 --> 0:27:31.480
<v Speaker 3>and yeah they turned into a maoist or apparently memory

0:27:31.480 --> 0:27:32.080
<v Speaker 3>of al Kaieda.

0:27:32.520 --> 0:27:35.160
<v Speaker 2>This is why, like, you know, journalists do a lot

0:27:35.200 --> 0:27:37.919
<v Speaker 2>of gathering, you know, what they can in the moment

0:27:37.960 --> 0:27:41.000
<v Speaker 2>from a scene, from interviews and stuff. But academics there's

0:27:41.040 --> 0:27:43.440
<v Speaker 2>always going to be if it's like a good academic,

0:27:43.800 --> 0:27:46.960
<v Speaker 2>Like I'm reading a great book right now on trust

0:27:47.160 --> 0:27:50.840
<v Speaker 2>in unstable societies, societies like racked by war. So it's

0:27:50.880 --> 0:27:53.959
<v Speaker 2>like contrast the concept of It's written by a Gazan

0:27:54.040 --> 0:27:57.199
<v Speaker 2>and it's about like how concepts of public trust fluctuate

0:27:57.400 --> 0:28:01.320
<v Speaker 2>during conflicts. And he's looking at Lebanon, he's looking at Syria,

0:28:01.400 --> 0:28:05.280
<v Speaker 2>he's looking at Iraq, he's looking at Palestine. It's very interesting,

0:28:05.320 --> 0:28:08.560
<v Speaker 2>but like he's not just interviewing people. There's like a

0:28:08.600 --> 0:28:12.000
<v Speaker 2>set of basically an algorithm that he runs his different

0:28:12.240 --> 0:28:15.399
<v Speaker 2>interviews and like the overall sentiments expressed in them through

0:28:15.680 --> 0:28:18.040
<v Speaker 2>in order to try and determine, like here is the

0:28:18.160 --> 0:28:21.080
<v Speaker 2>aggregate of like what I found as a reaction to

0:28:21.119 --> 0:28:23.240
<v Speaker 2>this question from like the people that I surveyed. It's

0:28:23.240 --> 0:28:24.639
<v Speaker 2>the same kind of stuff that you do in a

0:28:24.680 --> 0:28:26.760
<v Speaker 2>survey to attempt to add a little bit more rigor

0:28:26.800 --> 0:28:29.080
<v Speaker 2>than just saying well, I talked to ten people and

0:28:29.200 --> 0:28:32.000
<v Speaker 2>most of them said this, So clearly this is a trend, right,

0:28:32.400 --> 0:28:35.160
<v Speaker 2>which journalists are often guilty of, and also just goes

0:28:35.240 --> 0:28:38.960
<v Speaker 2>ab in part because of that, Twitter goes wild with

0:28:39.040 --> 0:28:42.280
<v Speaker 2>this kind of shit. Just like well, I looked through

0:28:42.360 --> 0:28:44.480
<v Speaker 2>and I listened to twenty videos and most of them

0:28:44.640 --> 0:28:46.840
<v Speaker 2>the kids loved bin Laden, So the kids must love

0:28:46.920 --> 0:28:50.160
<v Speaker 2>beIN lobby now, which I don't think is entirely fair,

0:28:50.240 --> 0:28:53.000
<v Speaker 2>but I wanted to. I think it's probably a good

0:28:53.000 --> 0:28:55.680
<v Speaker 2>time for us to go through the Letter to America

0:28:56.080 --> 0:28:59.680
<v Speaker 2>and talk about what is actually in this thing, right,

0:28:59.720 --> 0:29:02.600
<v Speaker 2>because you might as well know what's in it. It's

0:29:02.640 --> 0:29:04.000
<v Speaker 2>a good thing to read. Again, you can find it

0:29:04.040 --> 0:29:08.640
<v Speaker 2>on wiki source. Yeah. So it starts with him kind

0:29:08.680 --> 0:29:12.480
<v Speaker 2>of providing just some kind of chronic justifications for the

0:29:12.520 --> 0:29:16.239
<v Speaker 2>concept of fighting against an aggressor fighting against like, you know,

0:29:16.280 --> 0:29:20.160
<v Speaker 2>someone who is actively attacking you, which is more essentially

0:29:20.160 --> 0:29:23.120
<v Speaker 2>how he positions like the relationship between the US and

0:29:23.120 --> 0:29:25.720
<v Speaker 2>the Muslim world. And he is a big you know,

0:29:25.720 --> 0:29:27.280
<v Speaker 2>a big thing that comes up over and over in

0:29:27.360 --> 0:29:30.600
<v Speaker 2>this piece is him talking about how the Caliphate is

0:29:30.640 --> 0:29:33.960
<v Speaker 2>being sort of like squashed and stopped from you know,

0:29:34.080 --> 0:29:37.840
<v Speaker 2>existing in the form that it should exist by this

0:29:37.920 --> 0:29:42.360
<v Speaker 2>kind of constant both attacks on not just Arab democracy,

0:29:42.440 --> 0:29:46.440
<v Speaker 2>but on like sovereign Arab states as well as like

0:29:46.560 --> 0:29:49.600
<v Speaker 2>support by the US for He complains a lot about

0:29:49.600 --> 0:29:51.720
<v Speaker 2>corrupt rulers in the Muslim world, and he is talking

0:29:51.760 --> 0:29:54.280
<v Speaker 2>about not just guys like Saddam, but like largely the

0:29:54.280 --> 0:29:57.080
<v Speaker 2>Saudi Royal family is a big part of it. He

0:29:57.160 --> 0:30:01.800
<v Speaker 2>talks a lot about Iran and basically the uh so

0:30:02.200 --> 0:30:05.320
<v Speaker 2>that's kind of like a bit where a lot of

0:30:05.320 --> 0:30:08.880
<v Speaker 2>his like grievances start. He does bring up and one

0:30:08.920 --> 0:30:11.160
<v Speaker 2>of the videos, James that you posted earlier was like

0:30:11.200 --> 0:30:15.280
<v Speaker 2>inn Israeli man responding to this and basically characterizing in

0:30:15.320 --> 0:30:19.920
<v Speaker 2>a very inaccurate form saying like, uh, there's no facts

0:30:20.000 --> 0:30:24.600
<v Speaker 2>in this letter, Like he doesn't like say anything true. Yeah,

0:30:24.880 --> 0:30:28.280
<v Speaker 2>he's just angry at Israel in Palestine, right, He's just

0:30:28.360 --> 0:30:31.760
<v Speaker 2>angry at like at that. And he does bring up

0:30:31.800 --> 0:30:34.680
<v Speaker 2>Palestine multiple times. There's lines like the blood pouring out

0:30:34.720 --> 0:30:37.440
<v Speaker 2>of Palestine must be equally revenged. That's a significant part

0:30:37.440 --> 0:30:39.880
<v Speaker 2>of his case, but he also lists a lot of

0:30:39.920 --> 0:30:42.600
<v Speaker 2>other areas, right, he is not It is not just

0:30:42.840 --> 0:30:45.120
<v Speaker 2>what's happening. It's not just what Israel is doing in

0:30:45.160 --> 0:30:47.840
<v Speaker 2>Palestine that he's talking about. There's lines like you attacked

0:30:47.880 --> 0:30:50.520
<v Speaker 2>us in Somalia, you supported the Russian atrocities against US

0:30:50.560 --> 0:30:53.440
<v Speaker 2>in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against US in Kashmir, and

0:30:53.480 --> 0:30:56.280
<v Speaker 2>the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon, and he brings

0:30:56.280 --> 0:30:58.840
<v Speaker 2>all of those up several times. He also he does

0:30:58.920 --> 0:31:02.719
<v Speaker 2>drop some facts in one of the more salient lines

0:31:02.760 --> 0:31:05.400
<v Speaker 2>is you have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children

0:31:05.440 --> 0:31:07.160
<v Speaker 2>die every year. It is a wonder that more than

0:31:07.200 --> 0:31:09.520
<v Speaker 2>one point five million Iraqi children have died as a

0:31:09.520 --> 0:31:12.080
<v Speaker 2>result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern

0:31:12.440 --> 0:31:14.640
<v Speaker 2>yet when three thousand of your people died, the entire

0:31:14.680 --> 0:31:18.480
<v Speaker 2>world rises and has not yet set down. And that's

0:31:18.520 --> 0:31:21.600
<v Speaker 2>not an inaccurate thing to be That's not an inaccurate

0:31:21.600 --> 0:31:24.880
<v Speaker 2>statement or a thing to not be angry about. Now,

0:31:25.360 --> 0:31:29.680
<v Speaker 2>that's not the full context of it, right, because there

0:31:29.800 --> 0:31:32.000
<v Speaker 2>is a bunch of stuff that is in here that

0:31:32.240 --> 0:31:36.640
<v Speaker 2>is like bidden laden culture, warshit that absolutely is not

0:31:37.040 --> 0:31:40.880
<v Speaker 2>reasonable or a reason to bomb people. Like there's a

0:31:40.920 --> 0:31:42.920
<v Speaker 2>point in the letter where he's like, what do we

0:31:42.920 --> 0:31:45.600
<v Speaker 2>want from you? The Americans? Like, what do we you know,

0:31:45.640 --> 0:31:48.080
<v Speaker 2>al Kaida, the people who have attacked you. He's speaking

0:31:48.120 --> 0:31:50.480
<v Speaker 2>kind of broadly for the Uma here. What are we

0:31:50.560 --> 0:31:52.680
<v Speaker 2>asking from you? And the first thing we are is

0:31:52.720 --> 0:31:55.360
<v Speaker 2>that we are calling you to Islam, which I don't

0:31:55.360 --> 0:31:58.120
<v Speaker 2>think is likely to happen. The second thing is we

0:31:58.160 --> 0:32:01.240
<v Speaker 2>are calling on you to stop your pression, lies in immorality,

0:32:01.280 --> 0:32:03.719
<v Speaker 2>and debauchery that has spread among you. We call him

0:32:03.840 --> 0:32:06.160
<v Speaker 2>for you to be a people of manners, principles, honor,

0:32:06.200 --> 0:32:11.680
<v Speaker 2>and purity, to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling,

0:32:11.720 --> 0:32:15.120
<v Speaker 2>and trading with interest. We call all of you this

0:32:15.200 --> 0:32:16.880
<v Speaker 2>that you might be freed from what you have already

0:32:16.920 --> 0:32:18.440
<v Speaker 2>been caught up in, that you might be freed from

0:32:18.480 --> 0:32:22.440
<v Speaker 2>the deceptive lies that you are a great nation. And

0:32:22.600 --> 0:32:26.080
<v Speaker 2>you may recognize that as a pretty insane reason to

0:32:26.160 --> 0:32:28.560
<v Speaker 2>kill three thousand people. I mean, there's gambling.

0:32:29.960 --> 0:32:32.040
<v Speaker 7>I think a big part of the framing of this

0:32:32.240 --> 0:32:36.200
<v Speaker 7>entire thing is like people are taking this as being like, oh,

0:32:36.280 --> 0:32:39.560
<v Speaker 7>look at all these justified reasons because the US was

0:32:40.280 --> 0:32:44.160
<v Speaker 7>complicent and active in mass violence in the Middle East.

0:32:44.160 --> 0:32:48.400
<v Speaker 7>But like, he's not actually critiquing violence or political violence,

0:32:48.400 --> 0:32:51.720
<v Speaker 7>because he is pro political violence. He is like that

0:32:51.880 --> 0:32:55.480
<v Speaker 7>he what he is critiquing is Western degeneracy, Like that

0:32:55.680 --> 0:32:58.760
<v Speaker 7>that is his actual thing. The first to ask is

0:32:58.800 --> 0:33:02.760
<v Speaker 7>to is to convert over to a fascistic version of

0:33:03.040 --> 0:33:08.360
<v Speaker 7>his religion. Yeah, Like that's the primary thing this isn't

0:33:08.400 --> 0:33:13.800
<v Speaker 7>about like US imperialism in terms of what his end

0:33:13.840 --> 0:33:14.560
<v Speaker 7>project is.

0:33:14.960 --> 0:33:17.320
<v Speaker 2>And he's also when he's angry about violence, it is

0:33:17.360 --> 0:33:21.560
<v Speaker 2>specifically violence against Muslims, right, because again bin Laden is

0:33:21.760 --> 0:33:25.480
<v Speaker 2>fine with doing violence to and having the state potentially

0:33:25.560 --> 0:33:28.440
<v Speaker 2>do violence to non Muslims in his ideal state. He

0:33:28.520 --> 0:33:32.040
<v Speaker 2>also we read he is very right when he says

0:33:32.040 --> 0:33:34.080
<v Speaker 2>that the United States is complicit in the deaths of

0:33:34.120 --> 0:33:36.720
<v Speaker 2>over a million iraqis because of our sanctions. This is

0:33:36.720 --> 0:33:39.520
<v Speaker 2>in the pre invasion period. One of the worst crimes

0:33:39.560 --> 0:33:42.680
<v Speaker 2>this country has been complicit in within our lifetimes. Absolutely

0:33:42.720 --> 0:33:46.960
<v Speaker 2>a fucking nightmare. He devotes as much time to that

0:33:47.120 --> 0:33:49.160
<v Speaker 2>as he does to this next paragraph I'm going to

0:33:49.200 --> 0:33:51.680
<v Speaker 2>read you, which is another one of his grievances. Who

0:33:51.680 --> 0:33:54.440
<v Speaker 2>can forget your President Clinton's momorl acts committed in the

0:33:54.440 --> 0:33:57.280
<v Speaker 2>official oval office? After that you did not even bring

0:33:57.360 --> 0:33:59.760
<v Speaker 2>him to account other than that he made a mistake,

0:34:00.120 --> 0:34:03.040
<v Speaker 2>after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a

0:34:03.080 --> 0:34:05.080
<v Speaker 2>worse kind of event for which your name will go

0:34:05.160 --> 0:34:08.719
<v Speaker 2>down in history and be remembered by nations? He's like,

0:34:08.840 --> 0:34:11.400
<v Speaker 2>it's fucked up that you killed a million people. The

0:34:11.440 --> 0:34:14.360
<v Speaker 2>worst thing you did was let your president get a blowjob.

0:34:15.440 --> 0:34:18.120
<v Speaker 2>That is part of this letter. And that's a crazy

0:34:18.160 --> 0:34:23.600
<v Speaker 2>person thing to think. Yeah, like that's just him being

0:34:23.640 --> 0:34:29.719
<v Speaker 2>an asshole, because not really a problem, right, there's personal problems, right,

0:34:29.719 --> 0:34:32.439
<v Speaker 2>but on the scale of like American crimes, the fact

0:34:32.480 --> 0:34:35.120
<v Speaker 2>that we didn't forcepind or forced Clinton out of office

0:34:35.400 --> 0:34:36.360
<v Speaker 2>not really on the list.

0:34:36.760 --> 0:34:39.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, does not really make the cut. Yeah, there is

0:34:40.000 --> 0:34:41.799
<v Speaker 3>a long list, and that does not make it.

0:34:42.320 --> 0:34:46.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, then of course he's got He also spends actually

0:34:46.080 --> 0:34:49.160
<v Speaker 2>more time on the sex trade than he does on

0:34:49.280 --> 0:34:51.520
<v Speaker 2>what the US did to Iraq. You are a nation

0:34:51.600 --> 0:34:53.800
<v Speaker 2>that practices the trade of sex and all its forms,

0:34:53.840 --> 0:34:57.319
<v Speaker 2>directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on

0:34:57.360 --> 0:35:00.200
<v Speaker 2>this under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and read

0:35:00.239 --> 0:35:02.680
<v Speaker 2>them and other deceptive names you attribute to it. And

0:35:02.680 --> 0:35:04.760
<v Speaker 2>because of all this, you have been described in history

0:35:04.760 --> 0:35:07.000
<v Speaker 2>as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to

0:35:07.040 --> 0:35:09.239
<v Speaker 2>man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the

0:35:09.320 --> 0:35:12.000
<v Speaker 2>nations of man that you brought aids as a satanic

0:35:12.040 --> 0:35:13.000
<v Speaker 2>American invention.

0:35:14.080 --> 0:35:16.720
<v Speaker 7>It's it's a very basic reactionary screen.

0:35:16.800 --> 0:35:18.399
<v Speaker 3>It's like, yes, you can, you.

0:35:18.280 --> 0:35:21.360
<v Speaker 7>Can do the same thing with like sections of Hitler

0:35:21.440 --> 0:35:24.920
<v Speaker 7>speeches talking about like working conditions and factories. Right, you

0:35:24.960 --> 0:35:27.640
<v Speaker 7>could take little sections, put them on TikTok, make it,

0:35:27.719 --> 0:35:29.200
<v Speaker 7>make it be read by an ai voice and be like,

0:35:29.280 --> 0:35:32.399
<v Speaker 7>oh wow, this is a really good critique of capitalism. Yeah,

0:35:32.800 --> 0:35:36.240
<v Speaker 7>Like you're missing the entire point of what Hitler's actual

0:35:36.239 --> 0:35:39.360
<v Speaker 7>political project is. This is the exact same thing is

0:35:39.480 --> 0:35:43.680
<v Speaker 7>this is exactly this is This is the thing reactionaries do.

0:35:43.800 --> 0:35:47.120
<v Speaker 7>This is like they will take a few of these

0:35:47.160 --> 0:35:50.840
<v Speaker 7>points talking about imperialism, talking about capitalism, and then wrap

0:35:50.880 --> 0:35:53.759
<v Speaker 7>it in a fascistic package like that. That is their

0:35:53.920 --> 0:35:57.200
<v Speaker 7>entire political goal. It's it's it's the entire way they recruit,

0:35:57.239 --> 0:35:59.120
<v Speaker 7>it's how they spread their propaganda. It's how they get

0:35:59.120 --> 0:36:00.640
<v Speaker 7>people to believe conspira theories.

0:36:00.960 --> 0:36:01.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:36:01.520 --> 0:36:05.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and we American people especially will be incredibly vulnerable

0:36:05.560 --> 0:36:09.000
<v Speaker 3>to it because they'll look at the critiques, which are

0:36:09.040 --> 0:36:11.640
<v Speaker 3>in some cases reasonable, right or if somebody's.

0:36:11.280 --> 0:36:15.279
<v Speaker 2>Not wrong about every critique he has, but the fact

0:36:15.320 --> 0:36:18.759
<v Speaker 2>that he is valuing the murder through starvation of a

0:36:18.800 --> 0:36:22.560
<v Speaker 2>million or more people, with Bill Clinton getting the blow

0:36:22.640 --> 0:36:26.319
<v Speaker 2>shop some it's not something you should miss in your

0:36:26.320 --> 0:36:28.680
<v Speaker 2>interpretation of the validity of his points.

0:36:28.920 --> 0:36:30.759
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, this is not a This is not a guy

0:36:30.800 --> 0:36:31.680
<v Speaker 3>you need to agree with.

0:36:32.040 --> 0:36:37.160
<v Speaker 7>No, under no circumstances you have to.

0:36:38.360 --> 0:36:44.520
<v Speaker 3>Once again drill. Yeah, it's uh, it's certainly a weird one.

0:36:45.600 --> 0:36:48.719
<v Speaker 3>The reaction to it has been equally weird and equally misleading.

0:36:48.880 --> 0:36:52.960
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, the the reaction to the reaction like.

0:36:53.600 --> 0:36:56.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it shouldn't be that fucking hard for us to be,

0:36:56.160 --> 0:36:59.080
<v Speaker 3>Like America shouldn't have three sanctions, killed millions of children

0:36:59.120 --> 0:37:01.600
<v Speaker 3>and done how to walk crimes out of the world Asama,

0:37:01.640 --> 0:37:04.600
<v Speaker 3>bin lad and bad dude, we can take that middle path.

0:37:16.640 --> 0:37:18.160
<v Speaker 2>I do want to get into a little more before

0:37:18.200 --> 0:37:20.800
<v Speaker 2>we finish our talking about this. Some of the lines

0:37:20.800 --> 0:37:23.959
<v Speaker 2>that I think are really igniting some of these people

0:37:24.040 --> 0:37:28.719
<v Speaker 2>who are are now pro bin laden TikTokers, because it

0:37:28.840 --> 0:37:30.680
<v Speaker 2>makes sense to me that there are bits of this

0:37:30.760 --> 0:37:32.480
<v Speaker 2>that really grab people, and I'm going to read a

0:37:32.520 --> 0:37:34.600
<v Speaker 2>couple of them. One of them is this line here,

0:37:34.960 --> 0:37:37.200
<v Speaker 2>the freedom of democracy that you called to is for

0:37:37.280 --> 0:37:40.239
<v Speaker 2>yourselves and for white race only. As for the West

0:37:40.239 --> 0:37:42.760
<v Speaker 2>of the world, you impose on them your monstrous, destructive

0:37:42.760 --> 0:37:46.160
<v Speaker 2>policies and governments, which you call the American friends, you

0:37:46.200 --> 0:37:49.200
<v Speaker 2>prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic Party in

0:37:49.239 --> 0:37:51.920
<v Speaker 2>Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election,

0:37:52.200 --> 0:37:54.839
<v Speaker 2>you unleashed your agents in the Algerian Army onto them

0:37:54.960 --> 0:37:57.200
<v Speaker 2>and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison

0:37:57.239 --> 0:37:59.600
<v Speaker 2>them and torture them. A new lesson from the American

0:37:59.640 --> 0:38:03.520
<v Speaker 2>book Democracy. And like, yeah, there's some valid stuff in

0:38:03.560 --> 0:38:07.280
<v Speaker 2>that paragraph, right, there's some there's some points he's making

0:38:07.320 --> 0:38:10.120
<v Speaker 2>there that people who have started to get people who

0:38:10.160 --> 0:38:13.520
<v Speaker 2>have just gotten out of like their parents' bubble, and

0:38:13.560 --> 0:38:16.319
<v Speaker 2>who are starting to become aware of the world and

0:38:16.440 --> 0:38:19.360
<v Speaker 2>history in the US's place in it. I see why,

0:38:19.520 --> 0:38:22.040
<v Speaker 2>especially if they encounter stuff like that out of context,

0:38:22.520 --> 0:38:26.400
<v Speaker 2>they will find that intriguing because that's a fairly lucid

0:38:26.440 --> 0:38:29.520
<v Speaker 2>and reasonable sentiment of a horrible thing that this country

0:38:29.560 --> 0:38:30.520
<v Speaker 2>has been involved in.

0:38:32.760 --> 0:38:35.160
<v Speaker 7>It's also nothing that hasn't been said better by it.

0:38:35.280 --> 0:38:38.160
<v Speaker 2>You can find it, you can find it being said

0:38:38.400 --> 0:38:40.640
<v Speaker 2>well ahead, have bin laden saying it by people who

0:38:40.680 --> 0:38:41.880
<v Speaker 2>did not kill thousands.

0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:44.799
<v Speaker 4>I want to sort of you know, maybe this is

0:38:44.800 --> 0:38:47.279
<v Speaker 4>too late in this episode for anyone to still be

0:38:47.320 --> 0:38:49.600
<v Speaker 4>listening to this, but I want to sort of make

0:38:49.640 --> 0:38:52.400
<v Speaker 4>an appeal to people who are discovering anticolonialism for the

0:38:52.400 --> 0:38:54.880
<v Speaker 4>first time. Yeah, sort of in the wake of this

0:38:54.960 --> 0:38:57.680
<v Speaker 4>and in the wake of Israel community and genocide and

0:38:58.480 --> 0:39:01.040
<v Speaker 4>the thing that's there's something very very important to understand

0:39:01.080 --> 0:39:04.000
<v Speaker 4>about anti colonialism, which is an anti colonialism is not

0:39:04.120 --> 0:39:07.919
<v Speaker 4>a single coherent set of politics. There are many, many

0:39:08.000 --> 0:39:11.840
<v Speaker 4>different types of anti colonial politics, and those different versions

0:39:11.880 --> 0:39:15.520
<v Speaker 4>of anti colonialism wind up with completely different politics. And

0:39:15.640 --> 0:39:19.040
<v Speaker 4>this is something you know internationally, there was a very

0:39:19.040 --> 0:39:21.680
<v Speaker 4>important distinction between made between left and right wing anti

0:39:21.680 --> 0:39:24.239
<v Speaker 4>colonialisms in the US. I mean, we don't have this

0:39:24.400 --> 0:39:27.080
<v Speaker 4>right like. This is sort of the problem with Americans

0:39:27.160 --> 0:39:29.120
<v Speaker 4>encountering this for the first time is we don't have

0:39:30.160 --> 0:39:32.480
<v Speaker 4>left and right wing anti colonialism because the US is

0:39:32.480 --> 0:39:35.360
<v Speaker 4>the world's primere colonial power. But in a lot of

0:39:35.400 --> 0:39:38.560
<v Speaker 4>parts of the world there is right wing anti colonialism.

0:39:38.680 --> 0:39:43.319
<v Speaker 4>And you know, the core difference here is there are

0:39:43.360 --> 0:39:45.919
<v Speaker 4>people who hate colonialism because of their sort of deep

0:39:45.920 --> 0:39:49.319
<v Speaker 4>and abiding, principled opposition to oppression and exploitation. And there

0:39:49.320 --> 0:39:51.880
<v Speaker 4>are people who hate colonialism because their empire lost a

0:39:51.920 --> 0:39:53.360
<v Speaker 4>war and they want to go back to being an

0:39:53.360 --> 0:39:58.880
<v Speaker 4>empire again. And what kinds like which version of this

0:39:58.960 --> 0:40:02.040
<v Speaker 4>politics people take up often has a lot to do

0:40:02.080 --> 0:40:04.399
<v Speaker 4>with their class position, and they're, you know, they're they're

0:40:04.440 --> 0:40:10.160
<v Speaker 4>sort of like ethnic, racial, or position in the pre

0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:13.239
<v Speaker 4>existing society's hierarchy. And that's something very important about bin

0:40:13.280 --> 0:40:16.120
<v Speaker 4>Lauden that you can't get from either the American nationalists

0:40:16.120 --> 0:40:17.880
<v Speaker 4>they hate us for our freedom shit, And you also

0:40:18.000 --> 0:40:21.239
<v Speaker 4>can't get from bin Laden's own description of his motivation. Yeah,

0:40:21.440 --> 0:40:24.600
<v Speaker 4>and the thing that's important here, right, is that you know,

0:40:25.800 --> 0:40:28.600
<v Speaker 4>Asamo bin Laden is not some Palestinian kid who picked

0:40:28.640 --> 0:40:31.320
<v Speaker 4>up an ak after the Israelis murdered his family. Asamom

0:40:31.360 --> 0:40:33.440
<v Speaker 4>bin Laden is one of the heirs to the Saudi

0:40:33.480 --> 0:40:35.880
<v Speaker 4>bin Laden group. And this is a second I need

0:40:35.880 --> 0:40:37.160
<v Speaker 4>this style. We need to stop for a little bit

0:40:37.160 --> 0:40:39.920
<v Speaker 4>and talk about the differences between American and Saudi capitalism,

0:40:39.960 --> 0:40:42.880
<v Speaker 4>because they know they're not structured the same way. And

0:40:42.960 --> 0:40:45.160
<v Speaker 4>one of the sort of big differences here is that

0:40:45.960 --> 0:40:48.680
<v Speaker 4>the Saudi bin Laden group isn't like, it's not like

0:40:48.760 --> 0:40:52.800
<v Speaker 4>a company, right, it's a conglomerate. And what this means

0:40:53.400 --> 0:40:57.360
<v Speaker 4>is that, you know, is that bin Laden's family, like

0:40:57.560 --> 0:40:59.520
<v Speaker 4>the people who own the bin Laden Group, which is

0:40:59.520 --> 0:41:03.160
<v Speaker 4>founded by his dad. They don't own one company, they

0:41:03.200 --> 0:41:09.640
<v Speaker 4>own five hundred companies. The American equivalent to who Bin

0:41:09.719 --> 0:41:12.879
<v Speaker 4>Laden is is like it's it's it's imagining if one

0:41:12.880 --> 0:41:15.880
<v Speaker 4>if Jeff Bezos' kids went to like a church, like

0:41:15.880 --> 0:41:19.080
<v Speaker 4>an Orthodox church of Ukraine's seminary school, and then god

0:41:19.120 --> 0:41:21.400
<v Speaker 4>his dad to like go like pay for him to

0:41:21.400 --> 0:41:24.200
<v Speaker 4>go do war tourism in Ukraine and then got a

0:41:24.239 --> 0:41:26.440
<v Speaker 4>group together to like fly a plane into the Kremlin.

0:41:26.480 --> 0:41:29.799
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, and became like a weird like trad cat.

0:41:30.200 --> 0:41:33.160
<v Speaker 4>That would be kind of cool, it would be funny,

0:41:33.200 --> 0:41:35.680
<v Speaker 4>but like, but that's the thing. Like he's not, like

0:41:36.440 --> 0:41:39.160
<v Speaker 4>London is not a sort of moral authority on like

0:41:39.280 --> 0:41:42.399
<v Speaker 4>Islamic resistance to American imperialism. He's a rich, failed son

0:41:42.400 --> 0:41:45.160
<v Speaker 4>who had this combination of like regurgitated say you'd cut up,

0:41:45.640 --> 0:41:47.600
<v Speaker 4>and a bunch of his dad's money and like money

0:41:47.600 --> 0:41:49.759
<v Speaker 4>from Pakistani intelligence, and that allowed him to sort of

0:41:49.840 --> 0:41:51.600
<v Speaker 4>you know, that allowed him to do everything that he did. Right,

0:41:51.640 --> 0:41:53.719
<v Speaker 4>that that that's the thing that allowed him and not

0:41:54.320 --> 0:41:57.160
<v Speaker 4>you know like that kid in like that that that

0:41:57.160 --> 0:41:59.359
<v Speaker 4>that kid in Gazo picked up an ak Like that's

0:41:59.400 --> 0:42:01.320
<v Speaker 4>the thing that allowed him to declare war in the US.

0:42:02.200 --> 0:42:06.560
<v Speaker 4>And I want to read his account of what he

0:42:06.719 --> 0:42:11.000
<v Speaker 4>actually thinks happened to the US. This is this is,

0:42:11.040 --> 0:42:13.480
<v Speaker 4>this is from that same uh this this, this is

0:42:13.480 --> 0:42:16.880
<v Speaker 4>from that same letter. You are the nation that permits usury,

0:42:16.960 --> 0:42:19.760
<v Speaker 4>which has been forbidden by all religions, yet you build

0:42:19.760 --> 0:42:23.080
<v Speaker 4>your economy and investments on usury as a result of

0:42:23.120 --> 0:42:26.160
<v Speaker 4>this in all its different forms, and guys, is the

0:42:26.280 --> 0:42:29.279
<v Speaker 4>Jews have taken over your economy, through which they have

0:42:29.360 --> 0:42:31.960
<v Speaker 4>then taken control of your media and now control all

0:42:32.000 --> 0:42:34.760
<v Speaker 4>aspects of your life, making you their servants and achieving

0:42:34.800 --> 0:42:38.520
<v Speaker 4>their aims at your expense, precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned

0:42:38.560 --> 0:42:42.480
<v Speaker 4>you against. So I want to like, like like think

0:42:42.520 --> 0:42:44.280
<v Speaker 4>for it. Like I wanted people to sort of stop

0:42:44.400 --> 0:42:48.480
<v Speaker 4>and look at what he's actually saying here. His argument

0:42:48.600 --> 0:42:51.160
<v Speaker 4>for why the US is an imperialist power is that

0:42:51.200 --> 0:42:54.040
<v Speaker 4>it is controlled by Jews, who control the economy, in

0:42:54.080 --> 0:42:56.040
<v Speaker 4>the media, and has enslaved the rest of the US

0:42:56.040 --> 0:42:58.200
<v Speaker 4>to do their will. And this is and I cannot

0:42:58.200 --> 0:43:03.560
<v Speaker 4>emphasize this enough word for word, a Nazi yes analysis

0:43:03.600 --> 0:43:05.120
<v Speaker 4>what happened to the US, And this is this is

0:43:05.120 --> 0:43:07.160
<v Speaker 4>what right wing anti colonialism is, right you look at

0:43:07.160 --> 0:43:09.759
<v Speaker 4>like the sort of horrors of colonialism, go oh, this

0:43:09.920 --> 0:43:12.040
<v Speaker 4>is bad, and then when someone asks you, okay, why

0:43:12.080 --> 0:43:15.080
<v Speaker 4>is this happening, you unload this like utterly half assed

0:43:15.080 --> 0:43:17.359
<v Speaker 4>pile of anti Semitic conspiracy theories instead of like an

0:43:17.360 --> 0:43:20.799
<v Speaker 4>analysis of capitalism, like he thinks the source of like

0:43:20.920 --> 0:43:27.399
<v Speaker 4>American like imperialism and capitalism is interest bearing loans. Yeah, yeah,

0:43:27.719 --> 0:43:30.080
<v Speaker 4>this is nonsense, and that's.

0:43:29.960 --> 0:43:32.200
<v Speaker 2>What he means whenever he talks about usury, which, like,

0:43:32.400 --> 0:43:34.960
<v Speaker 2>by the way, is a heads up. Every Muslim country

0:43:35.120 --> 0:43:37.920
<v Speaker 2>that I am aware of has banks that do what

0:43:37.960 --> 0:43:41.440
<v Speaker 2>it fan does it, Yeah, and they do what is

0:43:41.480 --> 0:43:44.120
<v Speaker 2>effectively usury. It's just okay. So if you know anything

0:43:44.120 --> 0:43:48.279
<v Speaker 2>about like orthodox Judaism, right, you are not supposed to

0:43:48.360 --> 0:43:51.160
<v Speaker 2>do anything on the Sabbath, and so some people do

0:43:51.280 --> 0:43:53.200
<v Speaker 2>keep that. You're not even supposed to turn on a light, right.

0:43:53.280 --> 0:43:55.080
<v Speaker 2>Like one of the old ways this was expressed is

0:43:55.120 --> 0:43:57.920
<v Speaker 2>like you would light candles the night before the Sabbath

0:43:58.000 --> 0:44:00.160
<v Speaker 2>so that you could have some burning on the Sabbath.

0:44:00.560 --> 0:44:03.440
<v Speaker 2>Today there are ways around it that are like you

0:44:03.640 --> 0:44:06.200
<v Speaker 2>get lights that are scheduled to go on and off

0:44:06.200 --> 0:44:09.000
<v Speaker 2>at certain hours, and it's it's always. It's kind of funny.

0:44:09.040 --> 0:44:10.640
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of jokes about this you get from

0:44:10.640 --> 0:44:12.799
<v Speaker 2>the Jewish comedians being like, do you think God is

0:44:12.840 --> 0:44:16.279
<v Speaker 2>like tricked by your rule slowering and stuff? But there

0:44:16.320 --> 0:44:19.520
<v Speaker 2>are banks in the Muslim world that are the banking

0:44:19.560 --> 0:44:23.200
<v Speaker 2>equivalent of that. Well, what they're doing isn't technically taking interest,

0:44:23.280 --> 0:44:26.319
<v Speaker 2>but like it works out to be the same thing

0:44:26.360 --> 0:44:29.160
<v Speaker 2>for them. They're just they're just getting around anyway. I

0:44:29.200 --> 0:44:30.360
<v Speaker 2>think that's an important piece.

0:44:30.239 --> 0:44:34.000
<v Speaker 3>Of Catholic Church deciding that uh, fish and chicken on

0:44:34.160 --> 0:44:35.280
<v Speaker 3>meat so you could eat them.

0:44:35.200 --> 0:44:37.560
<v Speaker 5>Right right right yeah, where it's like really.

0:44:37.320 --> 0:44:39.880
<v Speaker 2>God, Yeah, yeah, do you think you think God is

0:44:40.000 --> 0:44:41.200
<v Speaker 2>like oh yeah, no, I never.

0:44:41.080 --> 0:44:43.399
<v Speaker 3>Meant for those things to be meat.

0:44:44.320 --> 0:44:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Damn.

0:44:44.719 --> 0:44:48.120
<v Speaker 3>They got me with that chicken shit. That ain't a

0:44:48.160 --> 0:44:51.000
<v Speaker 3>cow God seeing it? Yeah, I do.

0:44:51.040 --> 0:44:53.200
<v Speaker 2>Actually, you have to credit Chick fil A for being

0:44:53.239 --> 0:44:55.080
<v Speaker 2>closed on Sunday a little, I guess. But I love

0:44:55.120 --> 0:44:57.600
<v Speaker 2>the idea of like God going to like watch a

0:44:57.640 --> 0:45:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Catholic congregation go to breakfast and get there fucking like

0:45:00.920 --> 0:45:04.960
<v Speaker 2>chicken sandwiches and going, ah, you cut you crafty bastards.

0:45:05.560 --> 0:45:07.120
<v Speaker 3>Got me again, guys.

0:45:07.560 --> 0:45:09.840
<v Speaker 2>I didn't think you need those guys, they're so gross.

0:45:11.880 --> 0:45:17.640
<v Speaker 7>That is kind of how the Catholic God works removed.

0:45:18.040 --> 0:45:20.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's like set up a little Sudoku for you.

0:45:20.560 --> 0:45:22.239
<v Speaker 2>He's just thrilled that you're getting.

0:45:21.920 --> 0:45:28.600
<v Speaker 3>That has to press a button to get its feed. Yeah, yeah,

0:45:29.000 --> 0:45:29.279
<v Speaker 3>I want to.

0:45:29.320 --> 0:45:30.440
<v Speaker 4>I want I want to bring it back to bin

0:45:30.520 --> 0:45:32.960
<v Speaker 4>Laden for a second, because I think part of what's

0:45:33.000 --> 0:45:38.120
<v Speaker 4>going on here is something that isn't I don't know.

0:45:39.200 --> 0:45:43.759
<v Speaker 4>Bin Laden is a product of his specific context, right,

0:45:43.760 --> 0:45:45.840
<v Speaker 4>and his specific context is that he grew up in

0:45:45.960 --> 0:45:49.040
<v Speaker 4>one of the richest families in Saudi Arabia, and you know,

0:45:49.160 --> 0:45:50.840
<v Speaker 4>and his you know, and I guess this is the

0:45:50.840 --> 0:45:53.319
<v Speaker 4>thing we should actually I should actually mention I'm being

0:45:53.360 --> 0:45:55.719
<v Speaker 4>slightly unfair to the Taliban when I when I talk

0:45:55.760 --> 0:45:58.880
<v Speaker 4>about them having loans, because the Taliban are from a

0:45:58.920 --> 0:46:02.239
<v Speaker 4>different like school of Islamic jurisprudence then al Kaida is

0:46:02.239 --> 0:46:04.480
<v Speaker 4>even though they sort of they kind of work together sometimes.

0:46:04.719 --> 0:46:07.239
<v Speaker 4>But like, you know, but the thing, like the sort

0:46:07.280 --> 0:46:11.359
<v Speaker 4>of hobbyist school that like bin Laden is from right,

0:46:11.440 --> 0:46:14.920
<v Speaker 4>Like he's the reason he has a right wing anticlonial

0:46:14.960 --> 0:46:18.400
<v Speaker 4>critique is he's absorbed this sort of like social moras

0:46:18.440 --> 0:46:21.359
<v Speaker 4>and he's absorbed you know, the like the the like

0:46:21.480 --> 0:46:24.640
<v Speaker 4>involved in the slave trade, level of anti blackness that

0:46:24.680 --> 0:46:27.839
<v Speaker 4>you get from the Souds, like from you know, like

0:46:27.920 --> 0:46:30.719
<v Speaker 4>the the he's absorbed their anti Semitism. He's absorbed all

0:46:30.760 --> 0:46:32.879
<v Speaker 4>of these things. And this is what he sort of

0:46:32.960 --> 0:46:38.760
<v Speaker 4>like has constructed as the reason, you know, and filtered

0:46:38.800 --> 0:46:42.120
<v Speaker 4>through his sort of cobbling together of like different sort

0:46:42.120 --> 0:46:44.120
<v Speaker 4>of like like of like so how you could up

0:46:44.120 --> 0:46:46.000
<v Speaker 4>and of sort of like different sort of Islamic thinkers, Like,

0:46:46.520 --> 0:46:49.680
<v Speaker 4>this is what he's assembled together. And it's this thing

0:46:49.760 --> 0:46:53.880
<v Speaker 4>that it's not a stable, coherent critique of the US.

0:46:54.840 --> 0:46:57.319
<v Speaker 4>It's it's it's it's this like it's all of his

0:46:57.440 --> 0:47:01.440
<v Speaker 4>sort of like weird prejudices and hang up like grafted

0:47:01.600 --> 0:47:05.520
<v Speaker 4>onto anti colonialism. And being able to tell the difference

0:47:05.520 --> 0:47:08.040
<v Speaker 4>between someone who is a genuine anti colonialist and someone

0:47:08.520 --> 0:47:13.040
<v Speaker 4>who is doing this stuff or like who wants their

0:47:13.040 --> 0:47:17.400
<v Speaker 4>empire back or who is like, you know, like pissed

0:47:17.400 --> 0:47:19.480
<v Speaker 4>off that gay people exist like that. That is something

0:47:19.520 --> 0:47:21.919
<v Speaker 4>that is genuinely very important, and it's something that's made

0:47:22.480 --> 0:47:25.840
<v Speaker 4>enormously harder to do by the way that people like

0:47:26.000 --> 0:47:28.040
<v Speaker 4>you know, by by the American education system, by the

0:47:28.040 --> 0:47:33.640
<v Speaker 4>way people are raised to think about media. Yeah, yeah,

0:47:33.680 --> 0:47:34.920
<v Speaker 4>this is this is, this is, this is, this is

0:47:34.960 --> 0:47:38.680
<v Speaker 4>this has the been loten rant I we can always

0:47:38.680 --> 0:47:40.160
<v Speaker 4>stand to do more ban Laden rants.

0:47:40.160 --> 0:47:42.319
<v Speaker 2>Maybe I'll do another episode on him on Bastards one

0:47:42.360 --> 0:47:46.279
<v Speaker 2>of these days. But yeah, I uh, good stuff. I

0:47:46.280 --> 0:47:49.319
<v Speaker 2>do want to kind of close by reading another bit

0:47:49.520 --> 0:47:53.359
<v Speaker 2>from from obl you know, our our friend of the pod.

0:47:53.640 --> 0:47:56.439
<v Speaker 2>This one's from two thousand and four October twenty ninth,

0:47:57.000 --> 0:48:00.840
<v Speaker 2>and I think it's relevant as we look at the

0:48:00.960 --> 0:48:04.400
<v Speaker 2>different ways the current president of the United States, the

0:48:04.520 --> 0:48:06.960
<v Speaker 2>former and possibly future president of the United States are

0:48:07.000 --> 0:48:12.200
<v Speaker 2>talking about dealing with problems like Islamic extremism. Because I

0:48:12.239 --> 0:48:16.319
<v Speaker 2>think bin Laden's words here are pretty salient, and this

0:48:16.400 --> 0:48:19.680
<v Speaker 2>comes from a common team made it wound up airing

0:48:19.680 --> 0:48:22.319
<v Speaker 2>on Al Jazeera criticizing George Bush ahead of the two

0:48:22.360 --> 0:48:25.680
<v Speaker 2>thousand and four election. Your security is not in the

0:48:25.719 --> 0:48:29.000
<v Speaker 2>hands of Democratic candidate John Kerry or President George Bush

0:48:29.080 --> 0:48:31.960
<v Speaker 2>or al Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands.

0:48:32.080 --> 0:48:34.040
<v Speaker 2>We had no difficulty in dealing with Bush in his

0:48:34.080 --> 0:48:37.200
<v Speaker 2>administration because they resemble the regimes in our countries, half

0:48:37.200 --> 0:48:39.040
<v Speaker 2>of which are ruled by the military, and the other

0:48:39.080 --> 0:48:41.160
<v Speaker 2>half by the sons of kings. They have a lot

0:48:41.160 --> 0:48:45.760
<v Speaker 2>of pride, arrogance, greed, and thievery, and again not wrong,

0:48:46.120 --> 0:48:49.879
<v Speaker 2>not wrong about most Muslim majority nations, and not wrong

0:48:49.880 --> 0:48:52.120
<v Speaker 2>about most Western nations.

0:48:51.800 --> 0:48:54.200
<v Speaker 4>And it's a good And also's the Bushes too, because yes,

0:48:54.239 --> 0:48:56.600
<v Speaker 4>the Bushes were friends with the bin Laden family.

0:48:56.680 --> 0:48:59.600
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes they are you and they are also as

0:48:59.640 --> 0:49:03.880
<v Speaker 2>close as the US has to royalty, as is Trump.

0:49:04.640 --> 0:49:09.160
<v Speaker 2>Maybe the Kenny maybe the Kennedy Kennedy's but another presidential candidate, ma,

0:49:09.520 --> 0:49:16.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, complete with the insane inbred guys. Anyway, anyone

0:49:16.520 --> 0:49:17.280
<v Speaker 2>else got anything?

0:49:18.760 --> 0:49:19.719
<v Speaker 3>I'm just baffled.

0:49:20.160 --> 0:49:25.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well I'm happy. I'm having a good time, you know.

0:49:25.880 --> 0:49:30.239
<v Speaker 2>Get on TikTok. Let people know that you love terrorism.

0:49:30.719 --> 0:49:32.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, can't go wrong for you.

0:49:32.680 --> 0:49:37.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Alternatively, get on Twitter or wherever YouTube and film

0:49:37.760 --> 0:49:40.279
<v Speaker 2>an angry video in your car about how all of

0:49:40.360 --> 0:49:45.400
<v Speaker 2>gen z I ironically and supports the mass killing of civilians.

0:49:45.680 --> 0:49:48.319
<v Speaker 2>Do either those seem to be the two primary things

0:49:48.320 --> 0:49:50.160
<v Speaker 2>people are doing right now. So get out and join

0:49:50.200 --> 0:49:51.359
<v Speaker 2>the herd. Everybody. It's fun.

0:49:53.080 --> 0:49:54.319
<v Speaker 3>What a great place.

0:49:59.080 --> 0:50:01.719
<v Speaker 1>It could happen. Years production of cool Zone Media for

0:50:01.840 --> 0:50:05.080
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0:50:05.160 --> 0:50:07.480
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0:50:07.480 --> 0:50:10.839
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