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Speaker 1: Al Zon Media.

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Speaker 2: There is America hit by God in one of its

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Speaker 2: softest spots. Its greatest buildings were destroyed. Thank God for that.

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Speaker 2: There is America full of fear, from its north to

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Speaker 2: its south, from its west to its east. Thank God

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Speaker 2: for that. What America is tasting now with something insignificant

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Speaker 2: to what we have tasted for scores of years. Our

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Speaker 2: nation has been tasting this humiliation and this degradation for

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Speaker 2: more than eighty years. Its sons are killed, its blood

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Speaker 2: is shed, its sanctuaries are attacked, and no one hears,

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Speaker 2: and no one heeds. Those words, written by Osama bin

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Speaker 2: Laden in October seventh, two thousand and one, were part

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Speaker 2: of his first statement issued after the nine to eleven attacks.

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Speaker 2: You might notice a few things about that. One is,

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Speaker 2: of course, the glorying over the deaths of several thousand people.

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Speaker 2: And another is that when it comes to his analysis

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Speaker 2: of the cutrual and psychological impact of nine to eleven

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Speaker 2: on the United States, he was more or less right.

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Speaker 2: This is it could happen here A podcast about things

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Speaker 2: falling apart and nothing better embodies the slow, sometimes rapid

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Speaker 2: collapse of the United States. As our reaction to nine

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Speaker 2: to eleven and our continuing responses to it. And so

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Speaker 2: today I've got in the studio. We don't actually have

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Speaker 2: a studio. I've got Miya, I've got James, and I've

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Speaker 2: got Garrison, and we're going to talk about something you've

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Speaker 2: probably encountered, which is that a letter to America written

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Speaker 2: by osamaban Lan, which is a different piece from the

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Speaker 2: one I started this reading, but written along broadly similar lines,

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Speaker 2: has started to go viral on TikTok, and if you've

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Speaker 2: seen the reactions to it, it's a mix of a

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Speaker 2: bunch of you younger people on TikTok reading this letter

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Speaker 2: for the first time where bin Laden explains why he

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Speaker 2: did he believed nine to eleven to be justified, and

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Speaker 2: going wow, he has a point, some of them saying

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Speaker 2: stuff that's more unhinged than that even and then you've

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Speaker 2: got this chorus of responses from both kind of centrist

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Speaker 2: you know, media figures, cultural commentators, pundits, and of course

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Speaker 2: right wing shitheads who are all making this out to

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Speaker 2: be the left looves Osama bin Laden. We're going to

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Speaker 2: get into kind of where the truth lies in this

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Speaker 2: and also what is in the letter to America but yeah, welcome,

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the pod everyone.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Robert, horrible to be here.

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Speaker 2: How did you How did you all hear about this,

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Speaker 2: this new fun trend on the internet.

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Speaker 3: I returned from spending my evening volunteering the border in

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Speaker 3: Cucumber to find a dearth of messages about an Issama

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Speaker 3: bin laden letter or the speech that you just read

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Speaker 3: the ive a sign for probably a decade to undergraduates

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Speaker 3: without anyone losing their mind. And yeah, extremely confusing vibes

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Speaker 3: for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: The first time I heard about it was the first

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Speaker 4: post that I saw was it was only about a

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Speaker 4: million views. It wasn't even that viral, which I guess

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Speaker 4: might be true because TikTok is nuts. But yeah, I

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Speaker 4: think it. I don't know, like I first ran into

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Speaker 4: it on Twitter, and I think by the time it

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Speaker 4: hit Twitter, everyone was just sort of in about eighteen

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Speaker 4: directions completely losing their minds, which is yeas it is now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think probably a couple of videos of

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Speaker 3: people dying just seems to pop up every time something

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Speaker 3: discussed on Twitter.

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Speaker 2: Now, I think that's an accurate description of kind of

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Speaker 2: the fallout to it. And as we're writing the or

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Speaker 2: as we're recording this. Most of these original TikTok videos,

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Speaker 2: people seem to be reading off of The Guardian's copy

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Speaker 2: of a Letter to America, which was I guess the

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Speaker 2: most easy to google prior to I think it was

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Speaker 2: just the easiest to google. When this all started rolling,

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Speaker 2: the Guardian took that down because they didn't want people

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Speaker 2: reading it outside of the context of the article it's in.

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Speaker 2: This was a horrible mistake. I have found a number

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Speaker 2: of comments being like, this is them. They're trying to

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Speaker 2: stop you from reading Ben Laden's words. We're all gonna

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Speaker 2: be on a watch list. They can't arrest all of us.

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Speaker 3: You can.

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Speaker 2: You can still access the Letter to America.

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Speaker 3: It's on the sentiment that you can't arrest one of

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Speaker 3: us suggested that many of these people were not alive

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Speaker 3: in the media off to moth of them will fucking try.

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Speaker 3: They did try.

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Speaker 2: Just to be very clear, you can still read this

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Speaker 2: whole letter to yourself, and so can everyone else. It's

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Speaker 2: on Wiki source. If you just google Binladen Letter to America,

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Speaker 2: it will bring up the Wikipedia page that talks about

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Speaker 2: this this letter and its context, and that will also

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Speaker 2: give you a link at somewhere at the bottom to

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Speaker 2: the wiki source. That's just the unedited translation of the

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Speaker 2: letter to the American people. So it is not like

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Speaker 2: the Guardian's move was bad because of they called the

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Speaker 2: Streisand principle right that if you like try to hide

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Speaker 2: something from people on the internet, it just it just

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Speaker 2: makes the problem worse. You never do what the Guardian did.

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Speaker 2: It's very dumb.

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Speaker 3: It was explain the Guardian of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: action yeah. Sur I was gonna say, yeah, they could

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Speaker 3: have blamed trans people. I'm surprised he didn't get one

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Speaker 3: of those in there.

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Speaker 2: They've been everyone's been trying to pivot very quickly to this.

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Speaker 2: So obviously you know, my like James, my opinions on

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Speaker 2: this are kind of complex. On one hand, I am

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Speaker 2: not an Osama bin laden Fan. He was a bad person.

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Speaker 2: He was a terrible person, and he did a lot

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Speaker 2: of damage, not just to the United States. That said,

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Speaker 2: I've also long been an advocate for like, he's probably

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Speaker 2: going to go down as one of the most effective

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Speaker 2: and intelligent military strategic minds of the twenty first century.

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Speaker 2: The September eleventh attacks worked in large part right because

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Speaker 2: of how we re reacted because of the amount of

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Speaker 2: money that we spent, the amount of people that we killed,

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Speaker 2: the amount of anger that we engendered against the West,

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Speaker 2: and the amount of damage that we did to our

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Speaker 2: own society. A lot of the fallout that we're seeing

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Speaker 2: and all these you know, right wing street gangs and shit,

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Speaker 2: a lot of it traces back to fall out from

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Speaker 2: the wars that were started by the Bush administration after

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Speaker 2: September eleventh. So and that was that was part of

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Speaker 2: the stated goal, right that was one of the things

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Speaker 2: he was looking to provoke a reaction. So I'm I'm

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Speaker 2: both like glad. Hopefully some people are going to come

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Speaker 2: away from this with a more nuanced understanding of the guy.

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Speaker 2: And when I say nuanced, I don't mean in a

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Speaker 2: moral sense, because it's bad to kill thousands of random people,

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Speaker 2: but in the sense of, like, oh, this was not

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Speaker 2: I think I need to play something for you guys,

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Speaker 2: because like, as a nine to eleven, like I was

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Speaker 2: like nine or ten when it happened, So I remember

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Speaker 2: it all very well, and I remember the reaction to it,

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Speaker 2: and I remember the propaganda we encountered. And there's this

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Speaker 2: thing that you will find written about fascists pretty regularly,

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Speaker 2: which is that they both need an all powerful enemy,

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Speaker 2: but they also need an enemy that's like fundamentally free

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Speaker 2: of virtue, and intelligence and skill are virtues. So both

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Speaker 2: in the wake of nine to eleven, you got this

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Speaker 2: sort of al Qaeda and you know, larger sort of

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Speaker 2: Islamist movements were considered this nefarious force as they are

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Speaker 2: now in the wake of the attacks by Hamas, right,

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Speaker 2: this nefarious force that is capable of infiltrating the US

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Speaker 2: border and seeking terrorist sales into the United States to

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Speaker 2: hit anybody. And at the same time they're like primitive

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Speaker 2: idiots who are bigots against who are you know, they

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Speaker 2: hate women and all this stuff, right, Like, you can't

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Speaker 2: you can't see them as capable or intelligent, because then

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Speaker 2: that would that would be to give them a virtue

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Speaker 2: that you reserve for yourself. Anyway, I think a good

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Speaker 2: example of that is this parody song by John Valby

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Speaker 2: that I encountered in a napster download when I was

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Speaker 2: a child, and it's Bin Laden.

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Speaker 3: Oh it's the other one.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, yeah, this one's bad, folks. You're gonna hear

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Speaker 2: something offensive. I'm playing it now because number one, I

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Speaker 2: think it's something people should remember or no. But also

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Speaker 2: because we're about to place these TikTok responses to this

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Speaker 2: bin Laden video and reads some comments of people who

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Speaker 2: are very taken by it. And I want to set

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Speaker 2: up what the pre existing image of bin Laden was

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Speaker 2: and our culture kind of prior to this reappraisal of him,

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Speaker 2: because I think that is important. But this is unhinged

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Speaker 2: so and and it's pretty offensive. So just be aware people,

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Speaker 2: I'm about to play it now. Wait, oh yeah, no,

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Speaker 2: you're gonna have all right? Can you see the giant

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Speaker 2: Confederate So this is from a John Valby album. I

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Speaker 2: think it was called Real Women Do Play in Mud Puddles.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe not. That may just be a

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Speaker 2: random image I did not check. There's like describe there's

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Speaker 2: the general lee as a mudding truck with a giant

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Speaker 2: Confederate flag behind it and then with the Confederate flag

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Speaker 2: like colors the text real women do play in mud

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Speaker 2: puddles and it's as Southern girls girl on the on

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Speaker 2: the windshield of the truck. So I'm gonna start playing

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Speaker 2: this song. I'm not gonna play all of it, but

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Speaker 2: this should set up for you kind of what the

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Speaker 2: acceptable discourse on Ben Laden was right after nine to eleven.

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Speaker 1: Well, we come from Alabama, but we're in Afghanistan, Navy

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Speaker 1: Shield and.

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Speaker 2: Dreamer Rays hunting for a man.

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Speaker 3: They say he.

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Speaker 2: Has a bearded face of diaper on his head.

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Speaker 5: I heard we won't be coming home until that fucker's dead.

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Speaker 1: No, don't do.

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Speaker 3: I've come to fuck your fanny with.

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Speaker 1: Some and frax on my name.

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Speaker 2: So had you guys heard that before?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 4: Unfortunately?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, yeah, see.

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Speaker 3: This is the part of America but I missed growing

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Speaker 3: up abroad. Yeah, never fully understand now.

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Speaker 2: We freezed about thirty seconds into that minute and thirty

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Speaker 2: second song, but it was like playing random clips of

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Speaker 2: art to go along with the music. And the one

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Speaker 2: we paused on was Homer Simpson with an American flag

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Speaker 2: behind him, outlined and read with a pistol in his

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Speaker 2: hands aimed at a bug eyed Osama bin Laden. So

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Speaker 2: great nuanced discourse here, so.

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Speaker 4: Many memories like I don't know what it was. People

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Speaker 4: loved that, like bug ey'd bin Luden thing. This is

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Speaker 4: like like, yeah, I.

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Speaker 3: Don't know what.

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Speaker 2: No, I think I know, well, I'm pretty sure I

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Speaker 2: know why, which is that so. One of the most

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Speaker 2: popular pieces of like media popular media in response in

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Speaker 2: the nine to eleven attacks was an episode of South

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Speaker 2: Park that came out literally like a week or two

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Speaker 2: after the attacks, which basically, up until fairly recently, TV

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Speaker 2: was always made on a significant delay, so there were

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Speaker 2: no shows on air that could pivot to comment on

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Speaker 2: something really quickly. The West Wing managed to kind of,

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Speaker 2: but it was like a dog shit episode. But the

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Speaker 2: South Park guys really pivoted and they put out this episode.

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Speaker 2: It was basically like a Bugs Bunny cartoon with Cartman

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Speaker 2: as Bugs Bunny and Osama bin Laden as Elmer Fudd, right,

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Speaker 2: and there were a bunch of like scenes of him

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Speaker 2: like bug eyes bugging out when like shit would happen,

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Speaker 2: and it was It was weird because like the I

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Speaker 2: think the most people who watched it, including myself, took

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Speaker 2: it in the same manner of that song as like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: fuck these guys, these like you know in ways that

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Speaker 2: we're pretty bigoted. There was also like the episode opened

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Speaker 2: with an extended bit of kids in Afghanistan with everything

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Speaker 2: around them and all the adults getting murdered by US

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Speaker 2: airplanes for no seeming reason, which was like part of

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Speaker 2: the anyway whatever. I think one of the was, like

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Speaker 2: what we're seeing in some of like why young people

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Speaker 2: are reacting to this letter by bin Laden so strongly

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Speaker 2: is they've never really gotten to appraise the guy objectively.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that that's happening across the board now,

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Speaker 2: but I don't think the reactions are nearly as unreasonable

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Speaker 2: as they're being painted.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he kind of existed an avatar of evil and

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Speaker 3: like with zero nuance or complexity, just like, yeah, a

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Speaker 3: satanic sort of totem in American culture. Yeah, which is

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Speaker 3: why I've always assigned it just like I think it

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Speaker 3: behooves us to understand.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree entirely. So I went through and I

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Speaker 2: looked at some of the tiktoks being made about this,

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Speaker 2: And first off, TikTok does seem to have taken some

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Speaker 2: action to try to stop this. I don't think it's

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Speaker 2: going to work either. But like when I typed in

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Speaker 2: letter to America recently, the text I got on TikTok

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Speaker 2: was this phrase may be associated with behavior or content

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Speaker 2: that violates our guidelines promoting a safe, positive experiences TikTok's

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Speaker 2: top priority. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yah yah. You can still

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Speaker 2: find shit by like typing in bin Laden, but it's

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Speaker 2: it's not as much shit as findable right now, so

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Speaker 2: worth noting. One of the first things I came across

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Speaker 2: that was interesting is like, so there's this trend on TikTok.

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Speaker 2: If you're not a TikToker, I'm going to play what

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Speaker 2: are the people on TikTok. There's a lot of AI

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Speaker 2: videos where either the text will be read by AI

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Speaker 2: with like images and video clips on screen, or you'll

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Speaker 2: some there's some creepy instances of people just generating AI

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Speaker 2: faces sometimes of like actual murderers and criminals to talk

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Speaker 2: about the ship they did. It's really weird. But one

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Speaker 2: of the top videos I found on this from about

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Speaker 2: a little less than a day ago, is just the

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Speaker 2: entire text of bin Laden's letter to America being read

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Speaker 2: by an AI, and it it sounds weird. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to just let everyone get a listen to this.

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Speaker 6: In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful,

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Speaker 6: permission to fight against disbelievers is given to those believers

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Speaker 6: who are fought against because they have been wronged. And

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Speaker 6: surely a law is able to give them believers victory.

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Speaker 2: I think it misses some of the some of the

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Speaker 2: stirring contexts.

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Speaker 3: Delivery.

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Speaker 2: No, but you get the responses of this, and like

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Speaker 2: one of my favorite ones that I've gotten the screen

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Speaker 2: is chee cheekis Fressa saying y'all are going to hate me,

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Speaker 2: but he kind of ate.

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Speaker 1: And then the.

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Speaker 2: First response is no crumbs, which Garrison has our gins

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Speaker 2: it's Sultan.

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Speaker 5: That means like, I agree basically, you know, it's it's oh,

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Speaker 5: you're twenty one, now you're.

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Speaker 3: Out of touch. Yeah. Yeah, the first feeling old moment live.

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Speaker 7: I yeah, I think that means he like ate everything

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Speaker 7: and there's like no crumbs left.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, oh okay, that's that's good. Very literal.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I think I think that's what it means. But again,

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Speaker 7: this is this is very.

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Speaker 3: Very very particular culture.

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Speaker 2: We're really here.

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Speaker 3: It's the bleeding edge. Yeah yeah. The last comment following

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Speaker 3: that is bizarre. Trump isn't a good person either. The

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Speaker 3: gay people have nothing to do with me. This does

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Speaker 3: not say book for Trump. I think you can't read

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Speaker 3: see this is you know, it's it's and that's the.

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Speaker 2: Op responding to no crumbs. So I don't know what's

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Speaker 2: missing here.

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Speaker 7: It's really it's really hard to tell.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think these people may be in a parallel reality.

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Speaker 7: I don't think really anyone who's participating in this trend

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Speaker 7: is very intelligent or has or has very good media literacy,

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Speaker 7: or has really looked into like American imperialism very much. No,

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Speaker 7: but we will, we will, We will get to that

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Speaker 7: in this Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So the next comment is so much truth coming out

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Speaker 2: this season. And then I appreciated this from Walker. He

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Speaker 2: lost me at the end, he being bin laden with

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Speaker 2: the religiously charged homophobia, but that left out he was

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Speaker 2: right about everything else, justified and well said, see the

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Speaker 2: voice of.

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Speaker 3: Reason, the voice. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Well, but also also now we'll get through it. There's

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Speaker 5: a few more problems with the letter than that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm doing doing like you're doing nine to eleven,

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Speaker 3: but with a pride flag is yeah, perfect, And I

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Speaker 3: have no notes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't.

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Speaker 7: You can't remove those things from the rest of the letter.

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Speaker 7: In the action, they actually do create a complete hole.

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Speaker 7: You can't actually pick and choose little parts that you

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Speaker 7: want it. It's like trying to pick and choose parts

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Speaker 7: of qan On. You're like, yeah, well, actually there are

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Speaker 7: rich people who are pedophiles. You're like, well, yes, but

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Speaker 7: you can't, Like you can't. That's not giving Qan on

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Speaker 7: The benefit here is these are totally different things.

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Speaker 2: And the thing that I think people should be doing,

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Speaker 2: just so we're clear on my stands here, is seeing

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Speaker 2: bin Laden as an incisive and intelligent actor who had

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Speaker 2: a significant degree of understanding of this country and its culture.

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Speaker 2: And the terrible things that he did were as effective

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Speaker 2: as they were because he understood things about us that

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Speaker 2: we should understand about us, right, Otherwise you are not

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Speaker 2: going to be able to successfully act within this culture

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Speaker 2: to improve things and reduce harms. You need to understand

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Speaker 2: why what he did worked as well as it did,

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Speaker 2: and you need to understand what he knew about us,

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Speaker 2: because it's pretty useful stuff to understand. That is different

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Speaker 2: from saying that what he is like, you don't have

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Speaker 2: to view it as the truth, right because it's it's

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Speaker 2: it's not like the truth in any moral sense, but

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Speaker 2: it's the truth in that like if you if you

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Speaker 2: read some of Hitler's writings on democracy, Hitler accurately understood

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Speaker 2: the vulnerabilities of a democratic system and how to exploit them.

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Speaker 2: You should understand that you're not saying, wow, he was

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Speaker 2: spitting truth. You're just saying, well, some people are, Robert.

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Speaker 2: That is a problem. Yeah, some people, in fact are.

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Speaker 7: Do you know who else is spitting truth?

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Speaker 2: Robert our advertisers, Yes, that is right.

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Speaker 5: We are.

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Speaker 2: Are we sponsored by the new predition of mine at

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Speaker 2: this point? No, we are sponsored by al Bagdati. He's

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Speaker 2: still alive, folks. Mm I don't know. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Here here's the ads. Okay, so we're back. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to play another one of the one of these zoomer

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Speaker 2: Bin Laden loving videos for you. Well, no you're not, No,

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Speaker 2: I'm not.

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Speaker 7: Lots of these videos have also been taken down recently.

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Speaker 2: I go, yeah, they which Yeah. I thought this one

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Speaker 2: was interesting because it was someone who was like really

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Speaker 2: pro bin Laden, being like, yeah, you know, he was

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Speaker 2: completely right about everything. What a genius, So I love him.

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Speaker 2: But all of the comments were people being like, that's

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Speaker 2: fucking kind of crazy to say, bro, like, yeah, let's

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Speaker 2: take a step back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So the thing this reminds me of this, this is

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Speaker 4: a phenomenon I've run into with American maoists. Yeah, we're like, okay,

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Speaker 4: they'll read MAO. They'll read MAO saying something that is,

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Speaker 4: you know, perfectly reasonable, like you should not talk about

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Speaker 4: something unless you've researched it first. Yeah. Now, any normal

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Speaker 4: person has heard this when they were like two, But

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Speaker 4: these people apparently have never heard this, and they run

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Speaker 4: into it through MAO and they're like, holy shit, maw

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Speaker 4: is like the greatest living theorist.

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Speaker 2: What's a brilliant thinker?

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Speaker 4: You guys need bid LAUNI and tell you the US

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Speaker 4: sucks like really.

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Speaker 3: Health Yes, people do because they get shit history education

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Speaker 3: because their.

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Speaker 2: Their education of nine to eleven was the video I

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Speaker 2: started this episode.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like we failed as a country, like just completely.

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Speaker 3: No, seriously, Like I like a fucking like horse that

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Speaker 3: I will whip till it's dead.

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Speaker 1: Is that?

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Speaker 3: Like in twenty sixteen, there was this huge thing about

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Speaker 3: we need to teach history properly and media literacy right

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Speaker 3: after Donald Trump got elected because a lot of people

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Speaker 3: didn't know what the fuck was going on. We just

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Speaker 3: and then we just stopped, and everyone was like, nah,

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Speaker 3: fuck it, why not, We'll just keep doing stem stem

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Speaker 3: STEM and then like like teaching undergraduates often like intro

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Speaker 3: courses for years it's become very clear that we are

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Speaker 3: completely failing in the United States to educate people or

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Speaker 3: equip them with any understanding of a man history, and

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Speaker 3: so they just get propaganda.

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Speaker 2: This is a big part of why I focus on

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Speaker 2: crypto so much, because James, that is exactly where crypto

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00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,880
Speaker 2: comes from, is we learned a lot of stem shit,

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Speaker 2: but we never learned any humanities or anything. So you

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Speaker 2: get people saying stuff like, well, the underlying technology behind

399
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,399
Speaker 2: crypto is so impressive, and it's like, no, it's you

400
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,640
Speaker 2: can't point to a single useful piece of work it's

401
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 2: ever done. You just find it impressive because there's a

402
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,640
Speaker 2: lot of complex math problems and that's what you that's

403
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Speaker 2: what you value, Like, yes.

404
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Speaker 3: The resultimate, Yeah, the yodd stick of academic achievement or intelligence.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, speaking of people who are less intelligent than

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Speaker 2: a yardstick. It's not exactly what you said, James. But

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Speaker 2: I also wanted to play here's a right wing influencer

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Speaker 2: who's collected a bunch of these videos. I hadn't run

409
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Speaker 2: into this guy before, but oh no, did they drop

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00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 2: him too? Are they just purging everything?

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Speaker 7: So TikTok has been removing all of this. Almost all

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00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,800
Speaker 7: of the videos associated with this trend you can you

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Speaker 7: can find the compilations on Twitter are really some of

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Speaker 7: the only Yeah, so these videos are still alive.

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00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is a right wing guy. This was

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Speaker 2: the right wing guy making fun of it. But man,

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00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,480
Speaker 2: that's interesting because this was, like I found this five

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Speaker 2: minutes ago.

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Speaker 4: So I mean, I think this is the thing that like,

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00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,880
Speaker 4: it's really hard to talk about this without it being

421
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,879
Speaker 4: in like an insane right wing thing. But TikTok is

422
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,280
Speaker 4: really Americans only encounter with the way that Chinese style

423
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,919
Speaker 4: censorship works, which is they take a giant hammer and

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Speaker 4: they just like hit things with it. Yeah, I supposed

425
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,400
Speaker 4: like it's not it's not like targeted. It's like like

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Speaker 4: we found everyone who said the word bin lauded and

427
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Speaker 4: we band it right, everything associated with the trend, Like, yeah,

428
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,080
Speaker 4: you know, like this is this is the way that

429
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Speaker 4: like censorship stuff tends to work in China because it's

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Speaker 4: kind of easy to do and it covers your ass.

431
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Speaker 4: And so now Americans are like experiencing this.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm just enjoying seeing what Rubberts have suggested

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Speaker 3: for other tiktoks. He might like, oh, thank goodness for

434
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Speaker 3: the shower's top shelf products. Yeah, hashtag hadtalk.

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00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a big fan. I think it's because of

436
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 2: this person, Earth earth Mother, Earth earth Mother basically who

437
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,480
Speaker 2: actually I brought her up specifically because she was an

438
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Speaker 2: example of like the way this is getting portrayed in

439
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 2: kind of like particularly like Twitter and more mainstream sort

440
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 2: of descriptions of it is like all of these gen

441
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 2: zers are full throat for Osamo. They've all gone crazy,

442
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 2: and you can certainly find no shortage of those videos.

443
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,120
Speaker 2: I found a bunch of other videos that are more critical.

444
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 2: It is difficult for me to tell what the preponderance

445
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 2: of is because there's not no one's basing what they're

446
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 2: saying on a sentiment analysis. They're basing it on what

447
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 2: their timelines forwarded them based on their passionate when they

448
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 2: typed letter to America or whatever into Twitter or into

449
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 2: a TikTok. But like I ran into this lady's video

450
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 2: and like so not plenty of these are and I

451
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,919
Speaker 2: found others like this. Plenty of these are like a

452
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 2: little more critical but not but still yeah, I'll just

453
00:22:58,080 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 2: play it.

454
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 8: Hey, guys, just coming on here to remind y'all that

455
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 8: Osama bin Laden was still a bad person. Crazy that

456
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 8: I'm even having to get on here and say this,

457
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,720
Speaker 8: wee like hello, obviously, But I've been seeing a lot

458
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 8: of people, you know, say that they read Osama Laden's

459
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 8: letter to America.

460
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 6: And I've read the letter, and I.

461
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 8: Understand that a lot of people are getting educated and

462
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,119
Speaker 8: kind of like deconstructing the propaganda that they've grown up

463
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 8: in living in America. But that does not mean that

464
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,879
Speaker 8: we should mystify these terrible people. But are also criticized

465
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 8: the West in questions in the West and like how

466
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 8: we operated over here osam b and LANs doing the

467
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 8: same thing. It doesn't mean that they are necessarily wrong

468
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,680
Speaker 8: on what they're saying, but it doesn't take away the

469
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 8: fact that they're sexist, fascist, racist dictator.

470
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. I like this lady. That's a good video.

471
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think she kind of hits on one point

472
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 7: that I've seen in some of the other like, for

473
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 7: lack of a better term, pro Sama bin Laden, people

474
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 7: have been saying how like, well like people have been

475
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 7: talking about how like they're like finally like seeing past

476
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 7: us propaganda and they're deconstructing the lies that media has

477
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 7: told them. And this kind of gets at something that

478
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 7: we see a lot and kind of in like cult spaces,

479
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 7: is that you rarely ever just completely disengage from some

480
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 7: form of propaganda, you jump.

481
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 3: To a different form of propaganda.

482
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely right.

483
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 7: It's like reading this letter, you're not getting like disillusioned

484
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 7: from US propaganda. You're now buying into someone else's propaganda.

485
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 7: Like the letter to America is a completely other version

486
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 7: of conspiracy riddled propaganda that was put out for a

487
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 7: political purpose, and to try to engage with it in

488
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 7: good faith is not the way to approach that text.

489
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 7: And I think this is a big part of this

490
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 7: problem is how people's education has worked the past few years,

491
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 7: because as they should have learned all of the various

492
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,239
Speaker 7: motivations and geo political factors that led to the nine

493
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 7: to eleven attacks, and instead having Islam bin Lan be

494
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 7: characterized as this as this like cartoonish evil that hates

495
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 7: America for freedom and like hates America as a nation

496
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 7: for its freedom. Like that, Yes, that is propaganda. And

497
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 7: if that's all you've had your whole life, and you're

498
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 7: you're you're now seeing this other side. This is probably

499
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 7: like this is definitely like mind blowing, but like you

500
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 7: can look into why these things happen without just falling

501
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 7: for someone else's extremist propaganda, like like yeah, you can.

502
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 7: You can get into the actual reasons for why this happened,

503
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 7: how how US imperialism has caused the geopolitical situation coming

504
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 7: out of the nineties, Like it's it's lots of people

505
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 7: have already done this reading. There's just there's just plenty

506
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 7: of people online who have not looked into this because

507
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 7: they have life, they're doing whatever, like right, they've not

508
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 7: everyone is like us and spends all of our time

509
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 7: reading like political extremist literature.

510
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,959
Speaker 2: Not all of us have strong opinions on the different

511
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: eras of bin Laden writing.

512
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's like Tyla Swift in that sense. Yeah, yeah,

513
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 3: I think there's a.

514
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 4: There's another There's a thing that's also important here too,

515
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 4: which is I think you see this a lot in Americans,

516
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 4: which is that Americans will have this moment where they

517
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 4: realize that they've been being lied to you by the

518
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 4: American media, and then the thing this convinces them of

519
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 4: is that everyone else is telling the truth. Yes, And

520
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 4: it's like no, every country is doing propaganda. All of

521
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 4: their media is doing propaganda. Like you can't just sort

522
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 4: of ping pong from one like countries sort of prop

523
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 4: media propaganda to another countries because they're all doing it

524
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 4: and the stuff that they're saying also, is it true.

525
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 4: You have to actually like you have to actually try

526
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 4: to work out the sort of the reality of history.

527
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 4: You can't just rely on reading like some other like

528
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 4: some other propaganda's version of events.

529
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 3: But this comes down to like a lack of basic

530
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 3: understanding of how we do history, which I think is

531
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 3: not anyone's fault. It's because we don't teach you very

532
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 3: well at all in schools, but like the lack of

533
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 3: understanding of the difference between primary and secretary sources, right,

534
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 3: and like people want to get straight to the source,

535
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 3: so they'll go and read one historical primary source without

536
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 3: the adequate secondary context and suddenly be like oh shit,

537
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 3: and yeah they turned into a maoist or apparently memory

538
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 3: of al Kaieda.

539
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 2: This is why, like, you know, journalists do a lot

540
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 2: of gathering, you know, what they can in the moment

541
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 2: from a scene, from interviews and stuff. But academics there's

542
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 2: always going to be if it's like a good academic,

543
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: Like I'm reading a great book right now on trust

544
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: in unstable societies, societies like racked by war. So it's

545
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,959
Speaker 2: like contrast the concept of It's written by a Gazan

546
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 2: and it's about like how concepts of public trust fluctuate

547
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 2: during conflicts. And he's looking at Lebanon, he's looking at Syria,

548
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: he's looking at Iraq, he's looking at Palestine. It's very interesting,

549
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 2: but like he's not just interviewing people. There's like a

550
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 2: set of basically an algorithm that he runs his different

551
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 2: interviews and like the overall sentiments expressed in them through

552
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 2: in order to try and determine, like here is the

553
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 2: aggregate of like what I found as a reaction to

554
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 2: this question from like the people that I surveyed. It's

555
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 2: the same kind of stuff that you do in a

556
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: survey to attempt to add a little bit more rigor

557
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 2: than just saying well, I talked to ten people and

558
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 2: most of them said this, So clearly this is a trend, right,

559
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 2: which journalists are often guilty of, and also just goes

560
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 2: ab in part because of that, Twitter goes wild with

561
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: this kind of shit. Just like well, I looked through

562
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 2: and I listened to twenty videos and most of them

563
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 2: the kids loved bin Laden, So the kids must love

564
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: beIN lobby now, which I don't think is entirely fair,

565
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 2: but I wanted to. I think it's probably a good

566
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 2: time for us to go through the Letter to America

567
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 2: and talk about what is actually in this thing, right,

568
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 2: because you might as well know what's in it. It's

569
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 2: a good thing to read. Again, you can find it

570
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 2: on wiki source. Yeah. So it starts with him kind

571
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 2: of providing just some kind of chronic justifications for the

572
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,239
Speaker 2: concept of fighting against an aggressor fighting against like, you know,

573
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 2: someone who is actively attacking you, which is more essentially

574
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 2: how he positions like the relationship between the US and

575
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 2: the Muslim world. And he is a big you know,

576
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 2: a big thing that comes up over and over in

577
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 2: this piece is him talking about how the Caliphate is

578
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 2: being sort of like squashed and stopped from you know,

579
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 2: existing in the form that it should exist by this

580
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: kind of constant both attacks on not just Arab democracy,

581
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 2: but on like sovereign Arab states as well as like

582
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 2: support by the US for He complains a lot about

583
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 2: corrupt rulers in the Muslim world, and he is talking

584
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: about not just guys like Saddam, but like largely the

585
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 2: Saudi Royal family is a big part of it. He

586
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 2: talks a lot about Iran and basically the uh so

587
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 2: that's kind of like a bit where a lot of

588
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 2: his like grievances start. He does bring up and one

589
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: of the videos, James that you posted earlier was like

590
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 2: inn Israeli man responding to this and basically characterizing in

591
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 2: a very inaccurate form saying like, uh, there's no facts

592
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 2: in this letter, Like he doesn't like say anything true. Yeah,

593
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 2: he's just angry at Israel in Palestine, right, He's just

594
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 2: angry at like at that. And he does bring up

595
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 2: Palestine multiple times. There's lines like the blood pouring out

596
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 2: of Palestine must be equally revenged. That's a significant part

597
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 2: of his case, but he also lists a lot of

598
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 2: other areas, right, he is not It is not just

599
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 2: what's happening. It's not just what Israel is doing in

600
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 2: Palestine that he's talking about. There's lines like you attacked

601
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: us in Somalia, you supported the Russian atrocities against US

602
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against US in Kashmir, and

603
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon, and he brings

604
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 2: all of those up several times. He also he does

605
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,719
Speaker 2: drop some facts in one of the more salient lines

606
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: is you have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children

607
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 2: die every year. It is a wonder that more than

608
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 2: one point five million Iraqi children have died as a

609
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 2: result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern

610
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 2: yet when three thousand of your people died, the entire

611
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 2: world rises and has not yet set down. And that's

612
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: not an inaccurate thing to be That's not an inaccurate

613
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 2: statement or a thing to not be angry about. Now,

614
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: that's not the full context of it, right, because there

615
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 2: is a bunch of stuff that is in here that

616
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 2: is like bidden laden culture, warshit that absolutely is not

617
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 2: reasonable or a reason to bomb people. Like there's a

618
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 2: point in the letter where he's like, what do we

619
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 2: want from you? The Americans? Like, what do we you know,

620
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 2: al Kaida, the people who have attacked you. He's speaking

621
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 2: kind of broadly for the Uma here. What are we

622
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: asking from you? And the first thing we are is

623
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 2: that we are calling you to Islam, which I don't

624
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 2: think is likely to happen. The second thing is we

625
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: are calling on you to stop your pression, lies in immorality,

626
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,719
Speaker 2: and debauchery that has spread among you. We call him

627
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: for you to be a people of manners, principles, honor,

628
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 2: and purity, to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling,

629
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: and trading with interest. We call all of you this

630
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 2: that you might be freed from what you have already

631
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: been caught up in, that you might be freed from

632
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 2: the deceptive lies that you are a great nation. And

633
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 2: you may recognize that as a pretty insane reason to

634
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 2: kill three thousand people. I mean, there's gambling.

635
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 7: I think a big part of the framing of this

636
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 7: entire thing is like people are taking this as being like, oh,

637
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 7: look at all these justified reasons because the US was

638
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 7: complicent and active in mass violence in the Middle East.

639
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 7: But like, he's not actually critiquing violence or political violence,

640
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 7: because he is pro political violence. He is like that

641
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 7: he what he is critiquing is Western degeneracy, Like that

642
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 7: that is his actual thing. The first to ask is

643
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 7: to is to convert over to a fascistic version of

644
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 7: his religion. Yeah, Like that's the primary thing this isn't

645
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 7: about like US imperialism in terms of what his end

646
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 7: project is.

647
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 2: And he's also when he's angry about violence, it is

648
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 2: specifically violence against Muslims, right, because again bin Laden is

649
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: fine with doing violence to and having the state potentially

650
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: do violence to non Muslims in his ideal state. He

651
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: also we read he is very right when he says

652
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 2: that the United States is complicit in the deaths of

653
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 2: over a million iraqis because of our sanctions. This is

654
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 2: in the pre invasion period. One of the worst crimes

655
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 2: this country has been complicit in within our lifetimes. Absolutely

656
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 2: a fucking nightmare. He devotes as much time to that

657
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 2: as he does to this next paragraph I'm going to

658
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 2: read you, which is another one of his grievances. Who

659
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 2: can forget your President Clinton's momorl acts committed in the

660
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 2: official oval office? After that you did not even bring

661
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: him to account other than that he made a mistake,

662
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 2: after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a

663
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 2: worse kind of event for which your name will go

664
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 2: down in history and be remembered by nations? He's like,

665
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 2: it's fucked up that you killed a million people. The

666
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 2: worst thing you did was let your president get a blowjob.

667
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: That is part of this letter. And that's a crazy

668
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: person thing to think. Yeah, like that's just him being

669
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 2: an asshole, because not really a problem, right, there's personal problems, right,

670
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,439
Speaker 2: but on the scale of like American crimes, the fact

671
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 2: that we didn't forcepind or forced Clinton out of office

672
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 2: not really on the list.

673
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, does not really make the cut. Yeah, there is

674
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 3: a long list, and that does not make it.

675
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, then of course he's got He also spends actually

676
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 2: more time on the sex trade than he does on

677
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 2: what the US did to Iraq. You are a nation

678
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,800
Speaker 2: that practices the trade of sex and all its forms,

679
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 2: directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on

680
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 2: this under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and read

681
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 2: them and other deceptive names you attribute to it. And

682
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 2: because of all this, you have been described in history

683
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 2: as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to

684
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 2: man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the

685
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 2: nations of man that you brought aids as a satanic

686
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 2: American invention.

687
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,720
Speaker 7: It's it's a very basic reactionary screen.

688
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:18,399
Speaker 3: It's like, yes, you can, you.

689
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 7: Can do the same thing with like sections of Hitler

690
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 7: speeches talking about like working conditions and factories. Right, you

691
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 7: could take little sections, put them on TikTok, make it,

692
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 7: make it be read by an ai voice and be like,

693
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,399
Speaker 7: oh wow, this is a really good critique of capitalism. Yeah,

694
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 7: Like you're missing the entire point of what Hitler's actual

695
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 7: political project is. This is the exact same thing is

696
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 7: this is exactly this is This is the thing reactionaries do.

697
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 7: This is like they will take a few of these

698
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 7: points talking about imperialism, talking about capitalism, and then wrap

699
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 7: it in a fascistic package like that. That is their

700
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 7: entire political goal. It's it's it's the entire way they recruit,

701
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 7: it's how they spread their propaganda. It's how they get

702
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 7: people to believe conspira theories.

703
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

704
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we American people especially will be incredibly vulnerable

705
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 3: to it because they'll look at the critiques, which are

706
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 3: in some cases reasonable, right or if somebody's.

707
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 2: Not wrong about every critique he has, but the fact

708
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 2: that he is valuing the murder through starvation of a

709
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 2: million or more people, with Bill Clinton getting the blow

710
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 2: shop some it's not something you should miss in your

711
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 2: interpretation of the validity of his points.

712
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is not a This is not a guy

713
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 3: you need to agree with.

714
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 7: No, under no circumstances you have to.

715
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 3: Once again drill. Yeah, it's uh, it's certainly a weird one.

716
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 3: The reaction to it has been equally weird and equally misleading.

717
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 2: And yeah, the the reaction to the reaction like.

718
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it shouldn't be that fucking hard for us to be,

719
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 3: Like America shouldn't have three sanctions, killed millions of children

720
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 3: and done how to walk crimes out of the world Asama,

721
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 3: bin lad and bad dude, we can take that middle path.

722
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: I do want to get into a little more before

723
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 2: we finish our talking about this. Some of the lines

724
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,959
Speaker 2: that I think are really igniting some of these people

725
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 2: who are are now pro bin laden TikTokers, because it

726
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 2: makes sense to me that there are bits of this

727
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 2: that really grab people, and I'm going to read a

728
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 2: couple of them. One of them is this line here,

729
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 2: the freedom of democracy that you called to is for

730
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 2: yourselves and for white race only. As for the West

731
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,760
Speaker 2: of the world, you impose on them your monstrous, destructive

732
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 2: policies and governments, which you call the American friends, you

733
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 2: prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic Party in

734
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 2: Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election,

735
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 2: you unleashed your agents in the Algerian Army onto them

736
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 2: and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison

737
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 2: them and torture them. A new lesson from the American

738
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 2: book Democracy. And like, yeah, there's some valid stuff in

739
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 2: that paragraph, right, there's some there's some points he's making

740
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 2: there that people who have started to get people who

741
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 2: have just gotten out of like their parents' bubble, and

742
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 2: who are starting to become aware of the world and

743
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 2: history in the US's place in it. I see why,

744
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 2: especially if they encounter stuff like that out of context,

745
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 2: they will find that intriguing because that's a fairly lucid

746
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 2: and reasonable sentiment of a horrible thing that this country

747
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 2: has been involved in.

748
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 7: It's also nothing that hasn't been said better by it.

749
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 2: You can find it, you can find it being said

750
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 2: well ahead, have bin laden saying it by people who

751
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 2: did not kill thousands.

752
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 4: I want to sort of you know, maybe this is

753
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 4: too late in this episode for anyone to still be

754
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 4: listening to this, but I want to sort of make

755
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 4: an appeal to people who are discovering anticolonialism for the

756
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 4: first time. Yeah, sort of in the wake of this

757
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 4: and in the wake of Israel community and genocide and

758
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 4: the thing that's there's something very very important to understand

759
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 4: about anti colonialism, which is an anti colonialism is not

760
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,919
Speaker 4: a single coherent set of politics. There are many, many

761
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 4: different types of anti colonial politics, and those different versions

762
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 4: of anti colonialism wind up with completely different politics. And

763
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 4: this is something you know internationally, there was a very

764
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 4: important distinction between made between left and right wing anti

765
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 4: colonialisms in the US. I mean, we don't have this

766
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 4: right like. This is sort of the problem with Americans

767
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 4: encountering this for the first time is we don't have

768
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 4: left and right wing anti colonialism because the US is

769
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 4: the world's primere colonial power. But in a lot of

770
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 4: parts of the world there is right wing anti colonialism.

771
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 4: And you know, the core difference here is there are

772
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,919
Speaker 4: people who hate colonialism because of their sort of deep

773
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 4: and abiding, principled opposition to oppression and exploitation. And there

774
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 4: are people who hate colonialism because their empire lost a

775
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 4: war and they want to go back to being an

776
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 4: empire again. And what kinds like which version of this

777
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 4: politics people take up often has a lot to do

778
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,399
Speaker 4: with their class position, and they're, you know, they're they're

779
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 4: sort of like ethnic, racial, or position in the pre

780
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 4: existing society's hierarchy. And that's something very important about bin

781
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 4: Lauden that you can't get from either the American nationalists

782
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 4: they hate us for our freedom shit, And you also

783
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 4: can't get from bin Laden's own description of his motivation. Yeah,

784
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 4: and the thing that's important here, right, is that you know,

785
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 4: Asamo bin Laden is not some Palestinian kid who picked

786
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 4: up an ak after the Israelis murdered his family. Asamom

787
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 4: bin Laden is one of the heirs to the Saudi

788
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 4: bin Laden group. And this is a second I need

789
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 4: this style. We need to stop for a little bit

790
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 4: and talk about the differences between American and Saudi capitalism,

791
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 4: because they know they're not structured the same way. And

792
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 4: one of the sort of big differences here is that

793
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 4: the Saudi bin Laden group isn't like, it's not like

794
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 4: a company, right, it's a conglomerate. And what this means

795
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 4: is that, you know, is that bin Laden's family, like

796
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 4: the people who own the bin Laden Group, which is

797
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 4: founded by his dad. They don't own one company, they

798
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 4: own five hundred companies. The American equivalent to who Bin

799
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 4: Laden is is like it's it's it's imagining if one

800
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 4: if Jeff Bezos' kids went to like a church, like

801
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 4: an Orthodox church of Ukraine's seminary school, and then god

802
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 4: his dad to like go like pay for him to

803
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 4: go do war tourism in Ukraine and then got a

804
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 4: group together to like fly a plane into the Kremlin.

805
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 7: Yeah, and became like a weird like trad cat.

806
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 4: That would be kind of cool, it would be funny,

807
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 4: but like, but that's the thing. Like he's not, like

808
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 4: London is not a sort of moral authority on like

809
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 4: Islamic resistance to American imperialism. He's a rich, failed son

810
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 4: who had this combination of like regurgitated say you'd cut up,

811
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 4: and a bunch of his dad's money and like money

812
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 4: from Pakistani intelligence, and that allowed him to sort of

813
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 4: you know, that allowed him to do everything that he did. Right,

814
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 4: that that that's the thing that allowed him and not

815
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 4: you know like that kid in like that that that

816
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 4: that kid in Gazo picked up an ak Like that's

817
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,320
Speaker 4: the thing that allowed him to declare war in the US.

818
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 4: And I want to read his account of what he

819
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 4: actually thinks happened to the US. This is this is,

820
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 4: this is from that same uh this this, this is

821
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 4: from that same letter. You are the nation that permits usury,

822
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,760
Speaker 4: which has been forbidden by all religions, yet you build

823
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 4: your economy and investments on usury as a result of

824
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 4: this in all its different forms, and guys, is the

825
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 4: Jews have taken over your economy, through which they have

826
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 4: then taken control of your media and now control all

827
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 4: aspects of your life, making you their servants and achieving

828
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 4: their aims at your expense, precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned

829
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 4: you against. So I want to like, like like think

830
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,280
Speaker 4: for it. Like I wanted people to sort of stop

831
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 4: and look at what he's actually saying here. His argument

832
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 4: for why the US is an imperialist power is that

833
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 4: it is controlled by Jews, who control the economy, in

834
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 4: the media, and has enslaved the rest of the US

835
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 4: to do their will. And this is and I cannot

836
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 4: emphasize this enough word for word, a Nazi yes analysis

837
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 4: what happened to the US, And this is this is

838
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 4: what right wing anti colonialism is, right you look at

839
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 4: like the sort of horrors of colonialism, go oh, this

840
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 4: is bad, and then when someone asks you, okay, why

841
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 4: is this happening, you unload this like utterly half assed

842
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 4: pile of anti Semitic conspiracy theories instead of like an

843
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 4: analysis of capitalism, like he thinks the source of like

844
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:27,399
Speaker 4: American like imperialism and capitalism is interest bearing loans. Yeah, yeah,

845
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 4: this is nonsense, and that's.

846
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 2: What he means whenever he talks about usury, which, like,

847
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 2: by the way, is a heads up. Every Muslim country

848
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 2: that I am aware of has banks that do what

849
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 2: it fan does it, Yeah, and they do what is

850
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 2: effectively usury. It's just okay. So if you know anything

851
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 2: about like orthodox Judaism, right, you are not supposed to

852
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 2: do anything on the Sabbath, and so some people do

853
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 2: keep that. You're not even supposed to turn on a light, right.

854
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 2: Like one of the old ways this was expressed is

855
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 2: like you would light candles the night before the Sabbath

856
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 2: so that you could have some burning on the Sabbath.

857
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 2: Today there are ways around it that are like you

858
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 2: get lights that are scheduled to go on and off

859
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 2: at certain hours, and it's it's always. It's kind of funny.

860
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 2: There's a lot of jokes about this you get from

861
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 2: the Jewish comedians being like, do you think God is

862
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 2: like tricked by your rule slowering and stuff? But there

863
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 2: are banks in the Muslim world that are the banking

864
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 2: equivalent of that. Well, what they're doing isn't technically taking interest,

865
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 2: but like it works out to be the same thing

866
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 2: for them. They're just they're just getting around anyway. I

867
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 2: think that's an important piece.

868
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 3: Of Catholic Church deciding that uh, fish and chicken on

869
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:35,280
Speaker 3: meat so you could eat them.

870
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 5: Right right right yeah, where it's like really.

871
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 2: God, Yeah, yeah, do you think you think God is

872
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 2: like oh yeah, no, I never.

873
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,399
Speaker 3: Meant for those things to be meat.

874
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 2: Damn.

875
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 3: They got me with that chicken shit. That ain't a

876
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 3: cow God seeing it? Yeah, I do.

877
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 2: Actually, you have to credit Chick fil A for being

878
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 2: closed on Sunday a little, I guess. But I love

879
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 2: the idea of like God going to like watch a

880
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 2: Catholic congregation go to breakfast and get there fucking like

881
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 2: chicken sandwiches and going, ah, you cut you crafty bastards.

882
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 3: Got me again, guys.

883
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 2: I didn't think you need those guys, they're so gross.

884
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 7: That is kind of how the Catholic God works removed.

885
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like set up a little Sudoku for you.

886
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 2: He's just thrilled that you're getting.

887
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 3: That has to press a button to get its feed. Yeah, yeah,

888
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 3: I want to.

889
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 4: I want I want to bring it back to bin

890
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 4: Laden for a second, because I think part of what's

891
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 4: going on here is something that isn't I don't know.

892
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 4: Bin Laden is a product of his specific context, right,

893
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 4: and his specific context is that he grew up in

894
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 4: one of the richest families in Saudi Arabia, and you know,

895
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 4: and his you know, and I guess this is the

896
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 4: thing we should actually I should actually mention I'm being

897
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 4: slightly unfair to the Taliban when I when I talk

898
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 4: about them having loans, because the Taliban are from a

899
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 4: different like school of Islamic jurisprudence then al Kaida is

900
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 4: even though they sort of they kind of work together sometimes.

901
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 4: But like, you know, but the thing, like the sort

902
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 4: of hobbyist school that like bin Laden is from right,

903
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 4: Like he's the reason he has a right wing anticlonial

904
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 4: critique is he's absorbed this sort of like social moras

905
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 4: and he's absorbed you know, the like the the like

906
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 4: involved in the slave trade, level of anti blackness that

907
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 4: you get from the Souds, like from you know, like

908
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 4: the the he's absorbed their anti Semitism. He's absorbed all

909
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:32,879
Speaker 4: of these things. And this is what he sort of

910
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:38,760
Speaker 4: like has constructed as the reason, you know, and filtered

911
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 4: through his sort of cobbling together of like different sort

912
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 4: of like like of like so how you could up

913
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 4: and of sort of like different sort of Islamic thinkers, Like,

914
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 4: this is what he's assembled together. And it's this thing

915
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 4: that it's not a stable, coherent critique of the US.

916
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 4: It's it's it's it's this like it's all of his

917
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 4: sort of like weird prejudices and hang up like grafted

918
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 4: onto anti colonialism. And being able to tell the difference

919
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 4: between someone who is a genuine anti colonialist and someone

920
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 4: who is doing this stuff or like who wants their

921
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 4: empire back or who is like, you know, like pissed

922
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 4: off that gay people exist like that. That is something

923
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:21,919
Speaker 4: that is genuinely very important, and it's something that's made

924
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 4: enormously harder to do by the way that people like

925
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 4: you know, by by the American education system, by the

926
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 4: way people are raised to think about media. Yeah, yeah,

927
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 4: this is this is, this is, this is, this is

928
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 4: this has the been loten rant I we can always

929
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 4: stand to do more ban Laden rants.

930
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 2: Maybe I'll do another episode on him on Bastards one

931
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 2: of these days. But yeah, I uh, good stuff. I

932
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,319
Speaker 2: do want to kind of close by reading another bit

933
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 2: from from obl you know, our our friend of the pod.

934
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,439
Speaker 2: This one's from two thousand and four October twenty ninth,

935
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 2: and I think it's relevant as we look at the

936
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 2: different ways the current president of the United States, the

937
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 2: former and possibly future president of the United States are

938
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 2: talking about dealing with problems like Islamic extremism. Because I

939
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 2: think bin Laden's words here are pretty salient, and this

940
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 2: comes from a common team made it wound up airing

941
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 2: on Al Jazeera criticizing George Bush ahead of the two

942
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 2: thousand and four election. Your security is not in the

943
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 2: hands of Democratic candidate John Kerry or President George Bush

944
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 2: or al Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands.

945
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 2: We had no difficulty in dealing with Bush in his

946
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 2: administration because they resemble the regimes in our countries, half

947
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 2: of which are ruled by the military, and the other

948
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 2: half by the sons of kings. They have a lot

949
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:45,760
Speaker 2: of pride, arrogance, greed, and thievery, and again not wrong,

950
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,879
Speaker 2: not wrong about most Muslim majority nations, and not wrong

951
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 2: about most Western nations.

952
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 4: And it's a good And also's the Bushes too, because yes,

953
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 4: the Bushes were friends with the bin Laden family.

954
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 2: Yes, yes they are you and they are also as

955
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 2: close as the US has to royalty, as is Trump.

956
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 2: Maybe the Kenny maybe the Kennedy Kennedy's but another presidential candidate, ma,

957
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 2: you know, complete with the insane inbred guys. Anyway, anyone

958
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:17,280
Speaker 2: else got anything?

959
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 3: I'm just baffled.

960
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I'm happy. I'm having a good time, you know.

961
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 2: Get on TikTok. Let people know that you love terrorism.

962
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, can't go wrong for you.

963
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:37,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. Alternatively, get on Twitter or wherever YouTube and film

964
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 2: an angry video in your car about how all of

965
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 2: gen z I ironically and supports the mass killing of civilians.

966
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 2: Do either those seem to be the two primary things

967
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 2: people are doing right now. So get out and join

968
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 2: the herd. Everybody. It's fun.

969
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 3: What a great place.

970
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 1: It could happen. Years production of cool Zone Media for

971
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website coolzonemedia

972
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

973
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can

974
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at

975
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.