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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Oh, welcome back to Behind the Podcast A Bastard with

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Speaker 2: Robert Evans and Noah Shack. Noah, how are you doing?

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Speaker 3: A good question?

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Speaker 1: Mark?

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Speaker 3: Good?

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Speaker 2: Good question Mark?

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Speaker 3: How good can one feel? In part four of the.

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Speaker 2: Great Question?

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Speaker 3: No, I feel great there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, great question, Noah contributing writer at Rolling Stone, contributing

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Speaker 2: editor at Wired. You did it. You did that, so sable.

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Speaker 2: I did it last time, too unbelievable. Yeah, so I

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Speaker 2: think we should. I want to start here by saying, uh,

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Speaker 2: there's yet another post on the one of the subreddits

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Speaker 2: accusing now Garrison and me both of sounding like we

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Speaker 2: always have a nasal infection and like, I'm sorry those

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Speaker 2: of you who don't have a low grade sinus infection

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Speaker 2: every year, but the rest of us have allergies. Robert's

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Speaker 2: allergic to grass. The world is poisoned to me. I

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Speaker 2: don't know what to tell you, Like I have eggs,

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Speaker 2: I'm allergic to my own fucking skin. Get off, get

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Speaker 2: off my back, thank you, thank you. Noah, it's true.

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Speaker 2: My relentless toughness, Robert, Robert and.

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Speaker 1: I are allergic to so many things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's us incredible. People imagine being being really like

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Speaker 2: this is. This is I'm the person who has most

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Speaker 2: been victimized by the Internet because of how people are

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Speaker 2: to me about my nose. It's it's I'm the main

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Speaker 2: victim of cancel culture.

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Speaker 3: You know, are you in a bubble currently?

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Speaker 2: I live in a bottle. Yeah. I have to like

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Speaker 2: taze anyone who tries to get closer than ten feet

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Speaker 2: from me because I'm just a fragile little flower boy.

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Speaker 2: So I noted last episode that Peter was simpatica with

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Speaker 2: the Bush administration when it came to surveillance. The only

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Speaker 2: real issue with them is that they weren't mean enough

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Speaker 2: to Muslims. In two thousand and seven, though, he gained

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Speaker 2: another issue with the Bush administration, which was that, if

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Speaker 2: you guys can remember back this far right. At the

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Speaker 2: end of his last term in office, w announced massive

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Speaker 2: support for a new immigration reform package, which today, unfortunately

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Speaker 2: we would call like hopelessly live leftist right like the

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Speaker 2: George W. Bush two thousand and seven immigration reform package

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Speaker 2: is like so much more progressive than you could get

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Speaker 2: away with now and part it included a path to

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Speaker 2: citizenship for undocumented Americans. Bush's attempts to fix immigration as

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Speaker 2: he saw it again. This was not seen as great

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Speaker 2: by progressives in the day, but it's just kind of

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Speaker 2: more than you could get away with. Now didn't work out,

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Speaker 2: and it didn't work out because there's this massive ground

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Speaker 2: swell of rage from the fight flank of his own

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Speaker 2: party right that is furious that Bush is suggesting any

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Speaker 2: mercy for people who had entered the country illegally. Teal

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Speaker 2: saw this movement as promising, and he credited the failure

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Speaker 2: of Bush era immigration reform on an unprecedented internet campaign.

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Speaker 2: Teal money started to flow towards anti immigration organizations reaching

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Speaker 2: people online was called. One was a nonprofit called Numbers USA,

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Speaker 2: which argued that the US needed to reduce the number

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Speaker 2: of immigrants allowed in every single year. Numbers USA was

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Speaker 2: founded and operated by Roy Beck, who himself had once

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Speaker 2: worked for a guy named doctor John Tanton, who had

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Speaker 2: founded other earlier anti immigration groups. Beck had worked for

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Speaker 2: Tanton's US Inc. That's the anti immigration organization for a

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Speaker 2: decade and had helped Tanton organize a book They Vacation together.

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Speaker 2: These guys are very close ideologically and personally. Now, once

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Speaker 2: Roy starts his Numbers USA foundation, which is backed by

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Speaker 2: Peter teel. He starts to downplay his relationship with Tanton

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Speaker 2: because John Tanton, in addition to being Roy's friend, is

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Speaker 2: a white supremacist. Here's the Southern Property Law Center writing

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Speaker 2: about tantin as long ago as nineteen eighty eight, A

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Speaker 2: set of internal memoranda to the staffs of two groups

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Speaker 2: he founded, the Federation for American Immigration Reform FAIR and

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Speaker 2: US English were leaked and showed and showed Tanton warning

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Speaker 2: of a coming latin Onslaught, questioning whether Latinos were as

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Speaker 2: durable as others, and worrying that Latinos were outbreeding whites.

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Speaker 2: A decade later, he told a reporter that whites would

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Speaker 2: soon develop a racial consciousness and the result would be

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Speaker 2: the war of all against all. He hired and worked

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Speaker 2: alongside Wayne Lutton, who has held other leadership positions in

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Speaker 2: four white supremacist hate groups. He published and endorsed a

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Speaker 2: racist book on immigration, and he published numerous white supremacists.

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Speaker 2: Tanton compared immigrants to bacteria that will continue growing until

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Speaker 2: the population crashes, and sneered at immigrants defecating and creating

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Speaker 2: garbage and looking for jobs. There's a lot that's messed

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Speaker 2: up there.

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Speaker 3: You know. Yeah, the Latin Onslaught is the name of

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Speaker 3: a six Spanish language metal band.

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Speaker 2: It's also latinot is the term I use for that

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Speaker 2: that period where Emilio x Estevez and uh Charlie Sheen

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Speaker 2: we're both really starting to hit it in a big

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Speaker 2: in a big way, you know. I believe that was

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Speaker 2: the Latinslot. Yeah, it's Latin enough.

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Speaker 3: This show. This peer tell is an immigrant to this country, right.

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Speaker 2: Born in Germany. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for.

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Speaker 3: Sure he's an anti immigration immigrant.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean to be honest though, Like that's the

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Speaker 2: thing that people always get like flipped out by. But

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Speaker 2: that's like the core of the hardest anti immigrant chunk

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Speaker 2: of the US population is immigrants and children of immigrants, right,

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Speaker 2: Like you know, the Cuban community in Florida being one example,

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Speaker 2: but like half of the fucking border patrol is Latino,

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Speaker 2: you know, and those guys are yeah.

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Speaker 4: Am I right? Remembering that Til has said it like

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Speaker 4: his citizenship is here, and then also New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: Yes, he kind of fudged getting New Zealand citizenship. People

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Speaker 2: will argue that he wasn't actually there long enough to

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Speaker 2: get it. But if you have enough money, you can

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Speaker 2: get the citizenship and like, you know, New Zealand, if

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Speaker 2: you want to offer me citizenship too, I'll take it,

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Speaker 2: but it's kind of messed up that you give it

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Speaker 2: to Peter. Yeah, man, I could really use the New

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Speaker 2: Zealand citizenship right about now.

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Speaker 3: Citizenship if you found enough companies that are named after

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Speaker 3: a Lord of the Rings.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, there's a certain if you founded three companies

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Speaker 2: named after Lord of the Rings.

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Speaker 3: Game, you get to go to New Zealand. No, seriously,

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Speaker 3: is he pro immigration to New Zealand too?

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Speaker 2: He's pro him having a say, a safe valve. You know,

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Speaker 2: that's I think all that it is, right? Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Also, how do how come all these people or some

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Speaker 3: of these people hardcore Catholic but also hardcore against the

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Speaker 3: biggest hardcore Athlics on the planet aka the uh South

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Speaker 3: and Central American populations.

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Speaker 2: Uh. You know, that's a good question, in part because

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Speaker 2: a lot of these guys actually kind of hate what

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Speaker 2: most Catholics see as Catholicism, like the kind of trad

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Speaker 2: cath the trad cath movement today. They're all converts, they're

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Speaker 2: all into aspects of like my whole family's Catholic, and

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Speaker 2: like the kind of shit these people will say about like, no,

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Speaker 2: the pope is valid because this is seven hundred years ago.

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Speaker 2: It's like like Catholics are like, now he's the pope.

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Speaker 2: You like, you listen to the pope, you know, that's

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Speaker 2: all that matters, is like you know, it's this, it's this,

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Speaker 2: this kind of separation between what cultural Catholicism is and

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Speaker 2: like the fact that right now the fucking in a

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Speaker 2: I think it's a in Pennsylvania. The Republicans are going

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Speaker 2: after this nunnery because like a bunch of nuns are

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Speaker 2: registered to vote there and they're like none of them

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Speaker 2: live there. They're like, the nuns are talking about counter

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Speaker 2: suing them, and man, if the nuns are suing you,

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Speaker 2: no born Catholic I have ever known would fuck with

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Speaker 2: a group of nouns terrify you go get their uns.

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Speaker 2: They're frightening people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but even this Jew knows that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, these guys are not like they're they're not Catholic

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Speaker 2: in the sense that Catholics are Catholic. They're Catholic in

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Speaker 2: the sense that like people who become fans of Warhammer

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Speaker 2: forty thousand because they don't get the joke, are fans

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Speaker 2: of Warhammer forty thousand. That's the kind of Catholics they are,

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Speaker 2: right anyway, I feel.

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Speaker 1: Like that was a very alien fore moment.

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Speaker 3: Again.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, everyone understands Warhammer.

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Speaker 3: Do you have some sort of endorsement deal with Warhammer

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Speaker 3: forty thousand?

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Speaker 2: No, I wish I did. I would take more money,

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Speaker 2: but Games Workshop does not give out money. That is

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Speaker 2: the last thing that company does.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I feel like if you could socourre some that

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Speaker 3: sweet sweet Games Workshop yeah money, Yeah, you might be

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Speaker 3: able to find a cure for your.

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Speaker 2: ALLEGI I can do a whole podcast and all of

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Speaker 2: the characters that are based on nineteenth century gay poets

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Speaker 2: in Warhammer forty thousand, more than you'd think.

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Speaker 3: Go ahead, So go off, Ken.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, Peter Teal, he is this guy John Tanton

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Speaker 2: is directly connected to the dude. Teal's not backing Tanton,

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Speaker 2: but he's backing his protege Roy Beck at Numbers USA. Right,

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Speaker 2: And that's not all I'm going to continue that quote

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Speaker 2: from the Southern Poverty Law Center. The report revealed that

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Speaker 2: over the course of some twenty years, Tanton had corresponded

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Speaker 2: with Holocaust and ires, former clan lawyers and leading white

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Speaker 2: nationalist thinkers. He introduced leaders of FAIR, on whose board

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Speaker 2: he still sits today, to the president of the Pioneer Fund,

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Speaker 2: a racist outfit set up to encourage race betterment. At

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Speaker 2: a private club, he promoted the work of an infamous

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Speaker 2: anti Semitic professor, Kevin MacDonald to both FAIR officials and

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Speaker 2: a major donor. At one point, pursuing his interest in eugenics,

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Speaker 2: the utterly discredited science of breeding a better human race,

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Speaker 2: he tried to find out if Michigan had laws allowing

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Speaker 2: forced sterilization. His concern, Tanton wrote in a letter of inquiry,

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Speaker 2: was a local pair of sisters who have nine illegitimate

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Speaker 2: children between them. And again, Peter Teal is putting money

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Speaker 2: into all of the people adjacent to this guy, right

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Speaker 2: like he is backing a lot of organizations that are

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Speaker 2: next to him like this, this is just you can see,

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Speaker 2: and this is he's very much Tela is very happy

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Speaker 2: when like this Bush era immigration reform package goes down

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Speaker 2: in flames, because he has been one of the things

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Speaker 2: he's most consistent on again since like the two thousand

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Speaker 2: and seven eight is wanting massive restrictions and particularly non

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Speaker 2: white immigration into the United States, which is not a

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Speaker 2: libertarian stance and is really just kind of a far

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Speaker 2: right racist stance.

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Speaker 3: While bankrolling this like yeah, weirdo neo monarchist who's trying

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Speaker 3: to like convince yeah, the blogosphere right wing to abandon democracy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is actually a writer around the same time,

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Speaker 2: because it's like two thousand and eight and nine that

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Speaker 2: he starts getting involved with Yarvin, and it's two thousand

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Speaker 2: and eight that he's sends a million dollars to Numbers

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Speaker 2: USA through an intermediary, according to Chafkin, who notes Teal

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Speaker 2: didn't comment on the report at the time, but several

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Speaker 2: sources familiar with his political activities have told me the

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Speaker 2: reported donation was real, So you know, it doesn't look

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Speaker 2: like a thing that's absolutely confirmed, but there's definitely like

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Speaker 2: ties between him and Roy Beck, and Beck is tied

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Speaker 2: to Tanton, and this is all kind of part of

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Speaker 2: this very long process of Teal backing different explicitly racist

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Speaker 2: anti immigration organizations. Now, the next year, right around the

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Speaker 2: time that JP Morgan started experimenting with Pallanteer, Peter Teal

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Speaker 2: published an article in the Cato Institute's Journal with his

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Speaker 2: Sea stetting buddy this is the guy that he's backing.

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Speaker 2: At the Sea Steatic Institute. The theme of that issue

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Speaker 2: was the idea of creating libertarian enclaves outside of existing states.

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Speaker 2: Teal submitted an essay, The Education of a Libertarian, where

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Speaker 2: he channeled his friend Curtis Jarvin to write, I no

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Speaker 2: longer believe freedom and democracy are compatible. He wined that

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Speaker 2: the nineteen twenties where the last gasp of hope for

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Speaker 2: liberty because Americans then gave women the right to vote

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Speaker 2: and created the welfare state, and these two innovations had

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Speaker 2: made political victory impossible for libertarians. Libertarians can't win elections

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Speaker 2: because women can vote and there's welfare, and we'll never

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Speaker 2: get those people to give us any votes. Right, That's

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Speaker 2: why he's so angry about this ship.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I can't play this game. Yeah, this game

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Speaker 3: is over. This game is stupid.

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Speaker 2: I find whining about this shit so fascinating because we

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Speaker 2: have all seen Peter and guys like him. They've only

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Speaker 2: gotten wealth and power through the system that they claim

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Speaker 2: to be oppressed by. It is the only place that

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Speaker 2: they have ever been or wouldever be a success. These

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Speaker 2: guys are the winners of our society. They are elevated

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Speaker 2: by a system that is designed to produce and support them,

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Speaker 2: but they still can't feel help, but feel like losers

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Speaker 2: all the time, no matter what they do, and so

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Speaker 2: they turn their rage against the system that is the

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Speaker 2: only reason they're special.

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Speaker 4: Don't act like a loser.

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Speaker 2: Don't act like a fucking.

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Speaker 3: There you go. Don't act like a fucking loser. It's

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Speaker 3: just it is the most loserus shit to complain that

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Speaker 3: we couldn't possibly win on an election because fifty.

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Speaker 2: Girls too many girls will Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like they're like we won our D and

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Speaker 3: D games and there were no girls.

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Speaker 2: In yeah those, Yeah, you know win D and D

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Speaker 2: win just by playing. But yes, I get your point.

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Speaker 2: Peter's frustrations were amplified by a public outcry against his

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Speaker 2: complaints about women voting. Right, Like, people get angry at

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Speaker 2: him for saying this, and he is forced to come

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Speaker 2: out and kind of backpedal, be like, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to take away win's right to vote. I just recognize

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Speaker 2: that this is a problem, right, and I want to

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Speaker 2: find a shortcut to avoid democracy cramping my style. Right.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to stop women from voting, but we

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Speaker 2: have to agree, this is a problem that guys like

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Speaker 2: me can't win as many elections because the girls now.

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Speaker 2: Another constant teel irritant was the free press, as we

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Speaker 2: talked about last episode. I do think his initial irritance

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Speaker 2: with Valley Wag comes from a semi understandable place, but

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Speaker 2: it took years of them reporting on his actual doings

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Speaker 2: in a manner that I think was generally responsible journalism

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Speaker 2: before Teal acted. Here's the shadowy, inciting incident of the

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Speaker 2: Gawker lawsuit. According to Derek Thompson in an article with

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Speaker 2: The Atlantic where he interviews Ryan Holliday, he's the guy

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Speaker 2: who wrote the book on this. In twenty eleven, he

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Speaker 2: is in Berlin and he takes a meeting with a

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Speaker 2: then twenty six year old Teal devotee, who you might

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Speaker 2: call mister A. The young man essentially tells Teal, I

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Speaker 2: know you're obsessed with Gawker, and I have an idea

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Speaker 2: to destroy them. He says, Teal should create a show

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Speaker 2: company to fund investigators and lawyers to find causes of

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Speaker 2: action against Gawker and ultimately sue it into oblivion. He

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Speaker 2: estimates that the plan will take up to five years

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Speaker 2: and up to ten million dollars in funding, which is prophetic.

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Speaker 2: So it's this mysterious mister A who nobody knows the

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Speaker 2: real name of, allegedly who is the guy who sits

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Speaker 2: down with Teal and is like, Hey, I think if

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Speaker 2: you find if you just keep putting it, put money,

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Speaker 2: you know, put it towards some people, maybe I can

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Speaker 2: help you with this the feeling this guy's kind of

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Speaker 2: angling for a gig, Like we will figure out when

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Speaker 2: gawker slips up and we will use that to stick

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Speaker 2: the knife in them.

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Speaker 3: Right, maybe that's the lawyer or something like that. I mean,

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Speaker 3: like maybe that's like a lawyer just trying.

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Speaker 2: To Maybe maybe it's Ryan Holidays again. The reporter revealed

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Speaker 2: this describes mister A as a professional son, in other words,

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Speaker 2: someone who sought out and wormed his way into the

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Speaker 2: confidences of father figures who could advance his career and Teal.

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Speaker 2: Some people will say this is in part because he

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Speaker 2: has crushes on some of these guys, but Teal has

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Speaker 2: a habit of finding generally handsome young men and putting

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Speaker 2: them into his inner circle. Backing this kind of how JD.

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Speaker 2: Vance and Blake Masters get into his circle, right, and

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Speaker 2: I don't know how much. I'm trying to just kind

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Speaker 2: of like stay out of it, because what matters is

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Speaker 2: he's backing these people, not whether or not he thinks

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Speaker 2: they're hot. But that is an allegation. You'll hear that's

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Speaker 2: made about this, right, And I don't know, I'm sure that,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure that's not a non factor. Sometimes you hear

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Speaker 2: out this guy who like goes out and targets older

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Speaker 2: men to try and like embolden his career and is like,

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Speaker 2: I know how you can destroy Gawker, And maybe Peter,

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Speaker 2: he's frustrated, he's angry that he can't do anything about

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Speaker 2: this thing that's hurting his business, and then like this

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Speaker 2: hot dude comes up with a plan to kill them, right,

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Speaker 2: Maybe that's some of what's going on. According to the

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Speaker 2: version of the story told by Holiday, Peter compared to

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Speaker 2: complain to mister A over their meal that he couldn't

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Speaker 2: just outright destroy Gawker, and mister A said back, Peter,

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Speaker 2: if everyone thought that way, what would the world look like?

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Speaker 2: Right if people didn't just destroy journalistic outlets like because

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Speaker 2: they could, where would we be as a society. So

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Speaker 2: if this is accurate, that is kind of a not

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Speaker 2: a I don't know if it's a big if, but

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Speaker 2: it is an if. Peter. This guy is who succeeds

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Speaker 2: in getting Peter to fund this operation to find a

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Speaker 2: way to kill Gawker, and they eventually find the way

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Speaker 2: to kill Gawker in an unlikely place, the office of

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Speaker 2: a Florida DJ named Bubba the Love Sponge. Here we go,

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Speaker 2: Here's where Bubba the Love Sponge comes in. Everyone's been

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Speaker 2: waiting for this since we started talking to you. You know,

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Speaker 2: speaking of Bubba the Love Sponge. You know who is

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Speaker 2: a love sponge?

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Speaker 4: The sponsors of this podcast.

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Speaker 2: That's right, the sponsor of this podcast. I think that's

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00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,200
Speaker 2: a cum joke. So everyone enjoy that and go over

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00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:35,440
Speaker 2: there please before just come yeah, one of the two.

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Speaker 2: We're back, and boy, I hope we all enjoyed that

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00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:48,000
Speaker 2: ad from Hymns. Hymns I think they sell testosterone. Now

334
00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,680
Speaker 2: why not get involved or ozembic is it ozimbic they're

335
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,120
Speaker 2: selling basically whatever, give them some money, give them some money,

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00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,520
Speaker 2: hymns or back back in two thousand and six, whole

337
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,240
Speaker 2: COVID sponsor as Sophie and they give us money. Come on, hymns.

338
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,919
Speaker 2: Get on the bastard's trade, you know, yeah, adds like that.

339
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,879
Speaker 2: Every day. We'd shill for you, we'd chill for you.

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00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:14,520
Speaker 2: I'll sell hymns. I don't give a fuck. Uh right now,

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00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:19,440
Speaker 2: give hymns. Do you enough testosterone? Probably? But you could

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00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,200
Speaker 2: have more. It's what all the celebrities do. They'll ship

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00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:23,640
Speaker 2: it to your door. Who gives a shit?

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Speaker 3: Howboult give us one of those like sheepish? Like fuck?

345
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,119
Speaker 3: I have to do this house read conversion of hymns.

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00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,520
Speaker 3: Sometimes I may or may not hear a podcasts.

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00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,439
Speaker 2: Do you feel bad about your body? Well you probably should,

348
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,399
Speaker 2: so get on ozimbic, the drug that is probably fine

349
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:45,040
Speaker 2: for you. No one really knows yet. It's a little

350
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:45,600
Speaker 2: like vaping.

351
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,160
Speaker 3: Try it out, ye see what happens.

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00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,919
Speaker 2: Anyway, Back in two thousand and six, Whole Cogan had

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00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,000
Speaker 2: been depressed over the state of his marriage. I love

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00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,679
Speaker 2: where the story starts, which is I had again, just

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00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:59,639
Speaker 2: casually hearing it. I had thought that it was a

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Speaker 2: case of like he was just cheating on Bubba with

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Speaker 2: Bubba's wife. No, no, no, Hulk comes over because he's

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Speaker 2: getting a divorce and he's just in a dark place.

359
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,199
Speaker 2: And he needs his friend, Bubba the Love Sponge and

360
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 2: bubbas a bad place. I really need some comfort, and

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Speaker 2: Bubba the Love Sponge is like, Holkster, you know it'll

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00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,320
Speaker 2: cheer you up fucking my wife. Why don't you go

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00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:26,080
Speaker 2: into my bedroom and fuck my wife? And the Hulk said, okay,

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00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 2: but you're not going to film this, are you? Brother?

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00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,359
Speaker 2: I know you always film people who have sex in

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Speaker 2: your house. You're not going to film the hulks dick,

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00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,960
Speaker 2: are you? And Buba was like, of course, I'm not

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00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,159
Speaker 2: going to film you, And then of course he films

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Speaker 2: the whole keving sex and he takes the recording made

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Speaker 2: in his house and he puts the recording in his

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Speaker 2: desk at the radio station where he works. Incredible, did

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Speaker 2: you do amazing?

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Speaker 3: Shit? Yeah, that's incredible.

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00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,639
Speaker 2: So funny. This is such a funny case, Like a

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Speaker 2: lot of good people lost their jobs, but this part

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00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,160
Speaker 2: of it's really funny. Some people. Yeah, not all good

377
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,040
Speaker 2: people lost their jobs, but a lot of good people. Then,

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00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,679
Speaker 2: so fast forward about six years. Obama is on his

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00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,359
Speaker 2: way to term number dose and Bubba gets in a

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Speaker 2: conflict with a guy who Ryan Holiday describes as Hey,

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Speaker 2: this is the funniest term in the world, rival DJing

382
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,920
Speaker 2: nothing sadder than the words rival DJ.

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Speaker 3: Florida.

384
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:31,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, rival Florida DJ. If this is and again there's

385
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,119
Speaker 2: some debate, I'm not saying this is absolutely what happened,

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00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 2: but this is probably the most It's certainly the most

387
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,160
Speaker 2: entertaining and probably the most credible story as to why

388
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,520
Speaker 2: this all happens. If this is accurate, the whole destruction

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00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,959
Speaker 2: of goker thing started because Bubba the Love Sponge at

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00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,840
Speaker 2: a rival Florida DJ had an argument over who was

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00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,679
Speaker 2: going to like get which time slot, and the rival

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Speaker 2: DJ broke into his desk and stole the videos to

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Speaker 2: like hold him for like them for ransom basically, and

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00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,720
Speaker 2: ultimately leaked the videos to Gawker to embarrass Bubba the

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00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,840
Speaker 2: Love Sponge. Hulk was only ever an accidental casualty in

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00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 2: the It was collateral damage. The poor ulkster. That's in

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00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:19,960
Speaker 2: the Great Florida the Great Game of Florida DJs. He's Afghanistan.

398
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:29,119
Speaker 3: Is the DJ. Mister A is the secret maybe the

399
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 3: rival DJ.

400
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,399
Speaker 2: You know what I'm gonna say, Definitely. I'm going to

401
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,040
Speaker 2: say definitely in a way that makes iHeartMedia legally responsible.

402
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,640
Speaker 2: If I'm absolutely.

403
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,480
Speaker 3: Because if there's one DJ all radio up the radio.

404
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 3: iHeartMedia boom.

405
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:47,560
Speaker 2: Right, of course we've got to be tied into this.

406
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:48,440
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

407
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:50,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, get.

408
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,880
Speaker 2: Call the CEO. We're gonna blow this thing wide open. Yeah.

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00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 2: So yeah, anyway, Gocker now here is where Gaker? Because

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00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 2: I may I mentioned how it's questionable their choice to

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00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 2: out Peter, but probably in a court of law defensible

412
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 2: because of who Peter is, you know, politically, because of

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00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 2: how influential he is. Like you again, that's why he does.

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00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,679
Speaker 2: Peter doesn't sue over that this. This is something they

415
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 2: probably could have defended. What Gawker does next is something

416
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,359
Speaker 2: that is it still was potentially defensible. We'll talk about

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00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 2: Gacker makes some mistakes in their legal representation here, but

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Speaker 2: it's deeply questionable. This is a thing that I can

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00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 2: say I'm leaning on this not being newsworthy, right, And

420
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,120
Speaker 2: what's not newsworthy is they publish the video. They don't

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00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 2: just report on the fact that there's a whole Cogan

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00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 2: sex tape. They published the video under the title even

423
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 2: for a minute, watching Hull Cogan have sex in a

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00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 2: canopy bed is not safe for work, But watch it anyway,

425
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 2: and that's just hard to defend in court that you're

426
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 2: going to have to defend that.

427
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 3: Right, although an incredible headline, an incredible headline, incredible headline.

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00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 2: Nobody said they were bad at headlines, I mean an

429
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:01,439
Speaker 2: incredible headline.

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00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, publishing sex tapes is probably not it's on the edge.

431
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 3: It's on the edge.

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00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 2: It's on the edge. Yeah, So this is something that

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00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,440
Speaker 2: is again, this is potentially defensible. I'm not saying it's

434
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 2: blanket not, but it is something you were probably going

435
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 2: to have to defend in court. Right, you have crossed

436
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 2: a line that is going to open you up to

437
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 2: some potential injury here. Now, one reason why is that

438
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 2: the sex that Hogan had with Bubba, the love Sponge's

439
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 2: wife was not as a part of his job. As

440
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 2: you know, Hulk Hogan the public figure. Right, this is

441
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 2: not something he did with his subordinate. This is not

442
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 2: something he did on company property, right, Like, this is

443
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 2: not something you can argue as an abuse of power

444
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,640
Speaker 2: on the Holkster's part. You know, this is a consensual

445
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 2: non monogamy. I guess you could call it. Really that

446
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 2: just happened to get filmed. So Hulk has an argument

447
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 2: that what happened was a violation of his privacy. Now

448
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 2: gocker Again, I think if they had just reported on

449
00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 2: the tape's existence, could have defended it. Making it a

450
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 2: vai le is a lot harder to defend. Teal's people

451
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 2: set legal wheels in motion. And it's again, it's like

452
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 2: twenty twelve when this article, when this video gets released,

453
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 2: so that's like six years after the sex tape was filmed,

454
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,199
Speaker 2: and for a few years, the case kind of grinds forward.

455
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 2: And part of what it grinds forward is Gawker doesn't

456
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 2: know that Teal is backing hul Cogan and you know,

457
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 2: the Holkster's got money, but the Holkster does not have

458
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 2: a major media company money. And the smart play if

459
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 2: you are a big corporation like Gawker sued by a guy,

460
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 2: even a rich guy, is delay make it as expensive

461
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 2: for them as possible. Right, You run out the clock

462
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: and eventually they will not want to keep burning cash

463
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 2: in order to keep fighting you.

464
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 3: I mean, if I may, I'm not sure Gawker was

465
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 3: ever that big of a company. I think it was more.

466
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 3: And listen, I got a little bit of skin in

467
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 3: this game. Yeah, Gawker's lawyer at the time, and then

468
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 3: they're pressure. Yeah, I work with afterwards, But I would

469
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 3: just say at the dly East rabble truck together for

470
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 3: a compleaders is like, look, I think in general, you

471
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 3: got the First Amendment errors on the side of publishing, right,

472
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 3: even creepy ash absolutely like all Cogan's dick and so

473
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 3: I mean, I think what they were more pursuing was

474
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 3: a uh, you know what happens in any of these

475
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 3: First Amendment cases where they're they're they're trying to put

476
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 3: up their best defenses against getting sued, and those defenses

477
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 3: take a while. And I don't think it was I mean,

478
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 3: this company was never particularly a huge company. They had

479
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 3: insurance that protected them against litigation at some points, and

480
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 3: and and you know they had you know, depending on

481
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 3: where the case landed, whether it's in New York or

482
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 3: Florida or whatever, they had better defenses against the walk

483
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,120
Speaker 3: because a lot of the stuff is weirdly state by state.

484
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 2: And this is an early judge shopping case. Like the

485
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 2: fact that they wind up in a Florida district with

486
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 2: a very sympathetic judge is a big part of what

487
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 2: hurts them. If it had been in a different district.

488
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 2: They probably probably would have gone better for them. I

489
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 2: should know that. Yeah, it's kind of like a holiday

490
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 2: is argument as to how this went badly is that

491
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 2: Gawker takes the standard strategy you would take, which is

492
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 2: a bad strategy if Hogan has the kind of financing

493
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 2: behind him that they couldn't have known he had, right,

494
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 2: like the fact that there's so much more money behind this,

495
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 2: which starts to become clear later in the case, Like,

496
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 2: it's the kind of thing people do not initially know.

497
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 2: Gocker doesn't initially know that Teal is backing them, and

498
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 2: what Holiday will argue, And I think I think you're

499
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 2: probably right, But I don't think it's wrong that if

500
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: Gaker had known who was supporting the lawsuit, there are

501
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 2: probably changes they would have made and how they pursued

502
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: their defense, or at least how they pursued publicizing that

503
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: Teal was involved. Right, Yeah, Like maybe maybe you try

504
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 2: to make that clear earlier, right, Right, you.

505
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 3: Know, Hulk Hogan sues company that publishes dictape is one thing, right,

506
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 3: you know, weirdo right wing billionaire ye shoes media company

507
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 3: for no particular reason. Yeah, but you know happens to

508
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 3: use the sex sape as an excuse. That's a totally

509
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 3: different thing.

510
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a totally different thing. And yeah that's and

511
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 2: again i Holiday, I quote him a lot because he's

512
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 2: the guy who like wrote the book on this case.

513
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 2: He is kind of more on Teal side than I am.

514
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 2: And then I think most reporters are. Although the Teal

515
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 2: side more and a goacker made a lot of major mistakes.

516
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 2: And I don't entirely agree with Holiday here, but they

517
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 2: do make a number of mistakes. Right, there are some

518
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 2: like issues with the way this legal defense goes down.

519
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 2: But also it's one of these things where well, if

520
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 2: you have Peter Teal money and the ability to judge,

521
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: shop and shit in a way that a guy Teal does,

522
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 2: it's it's hard to imagine he wouldn't eventually have gotten

523
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: them on something. Right.

524
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 3: Well, certainly you're going to operate differently if you know

525
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 3: that there's a right wing billionaire that's built trying to

526
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 3: kill you. Yeah, exactly, shine to destroy the planet. Like,

527
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 3: that's a very different kind of way to operate. And look,

528
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 3: I think also just like growing up in the same

529
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 3: era of media is like I think we all a

530
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 3: lot of us were like kind of self taught and

531
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 3: kind of like relearning the rules as we went along, right,

532
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:18,239
Speaker 3: you know, Like you know, this was you know, a

533
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 3: major object lesson and and we would have all rolled

534
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,959
Speaker 3: a little bit differently if we had known that there

535
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 3: are these like you know, kind of like autocratic gazillionaires

536
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 3: that were kind of out to destroy what we were about.

537
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 2: And this is the thing, this is one of the

538
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: things that's so sad about this is that like a

539
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 2: lot of the a lot of the issues that you know,

540
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 2: in terms of like we can when we talk about

541
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 2: like the areas in which Gawker made mistakes, a lot

542
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 2: of them are just due to how young the company was,

543
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 2: how new this whole branch of the media was, and

544
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 2: that we are all because I was a part of

545
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 2: a digital media company there, I like definitely I was learning,

546
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 2: and like learning by breaking a lot of the rules

547
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 2: of journalism early on in my career too, Like we

548
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: were trying to figure out how these things worked in

549
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 2: a new era where there was suddenly both opportunity and

550
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 2: money in a way that journalists had not been used

551
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: to for a while, but also brand new pitfalls and threats. Right,

552
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: And this is well said, I don't think. I don't

553
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 2: think it was you know, Gawker, if they had done

554
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 2: things differently, might have been able to survive. But someone

555
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 2: was going to go down in flames for something like

556
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 2: this as a result of the different period that we

557
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 2: had entered into, Right. I do kind kind of believe

558
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 2: that maybe it wouldn't have had to be Gawker, but

559
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 2: it was going to be somebody because there was just

560
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 2: so much being tried that was new and that hadn't

561
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 2: been adjudicated, you know, like that that was always good,

562
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 2: and it was the same thing I think most of

563
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 2: us expected. It was going to come down over like

564
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 2: whistleblower stuff, you know, WikiLeaks kind of shit, as opposed

565
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 2: to Bubble the Love Sponge. But it was going to happen, right, right.

566
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 2: So a big part of why the case goes against

567
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: God is there's this. One of kind of the leading

568
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 2: moments of this court case is that in court, Gacker

569
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 2: editor in chief Aj Delario, in a deposition kind of

570
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 2: jokes that the only celebrity sex tape he wouldn't have

571
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,479
Speaker 2: considered news whethy was one that featured a preschooler. That

572
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,719
Speaker 2: does not go over well in court. It's not a

573
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 2: great moment, although I don't think it actually changes the

574
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: It's just why would you say that. I don't know anyway,

575
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna He's suffered enough, But it doesn't. This

576
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,239
Speaker 2: all goes very badly, right, I mean, it goes as

577
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 2: badly as it possibly could. Even though the case had

578
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 2: not initially gone super well for Hulk. Ultimately, you know

579
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 2: the fact that this judge is very sympathetic, it all

580
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 2: goes their way in the case, the plaintiff is awarded

581
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: one hundred and forty million dollars in damages. Goker, as

582
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 2: you have said, was never that big as a media company,

583
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 2: and this absolutely drives them into bankruptcy. Nick Denton sold

584
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 2: the company off to Univision, which shuddered the embattled flagship site.

585
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 2: And that is the end of Gaker, except for it's

586
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 2: kind of sort of back. I don't know, I don't

587
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: know how we want to like it didn't all die out, right,

588
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's a and this is a scary moment.

589
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 3: Live on in one in one way or another.

590
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 2: My old site lives on in one way or another. Zombie, Yeah,

591
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:26,239
Speaker 2: the zombies of our youths as writers, So Teal, you know,

592
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 2: he gets one of the things that happens kind of

593
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 2: at the tail end of this is that it becomes

594
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 2: clear to the people involved in the case and the

595
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 2: people paying attention to it that Teal is the guy

596
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: funding this. I think it might have been Vogue, I

597
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 2: think that published I maybe getting that wrong, but it

598
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: wasn't Gager that published the first article being like, hey,

599
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: Teal's behind this. But right as the case is ending,

600
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 2: it comes out that Peter Teal is the guy who

601
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: had backed this right, and so Teal is able there's

602
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 2: this like backlash against him, but he's also able to

603
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 2: kind of go out in the open and take a

604
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 2: victory lap. He tells The New York Times. It's less

605
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 2: about revenge and more about pacific deterrence. I saw Goker

606
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 2: pioneer a unique and incredibly damaging way of getting attention

607
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 2: by bullying people even when there was no connection with

608
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 2: the public interest. And like you back guys like JD. Vanson,

609
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 2: Blake Masters whose politics is entirely dedicated to attacking little

610
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 2: people who have no power right destroying their lives for

611
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 2: cloud like, you don't believe any of this shit, Peter. Now,

612
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 2: the Gocker case was the first thing to put Teal

613
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 2: on my radar in a big way, right. You know.

614
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 2: I wish I could say I was one of those

615
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 2: guys who from the early days of pallunteer and knew

616
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 2: he was dangerous. But it wasn't until this that I

617
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 2: was like, oh shit, there's this Peter Teal guy, and

618
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 2: he seems like a real problem. Right. It's also notable that, like,

619
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,479
Speaker 2: it's not entirely I think that the surface summary of this,

620
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 2: which is that Gocker outed Teal and then he destroyed them,

621
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 2: is not entirely what happened.

622
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 3: Right.

623
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 2: Gocker was damaging to his business interests for years, and

624
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 2: so he laid out a painstaking and slow, in funded

625
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 2: a pains taking some slow path to taking them out right,

626
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 2: which I think is a scarier story, you know, just

627
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 2: than that he was angry that they'd outed him and

628
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 2: so he slapped them down. The time that he waited,

629
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 2: how long this took, you know, the inevitability of it

630
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 2: in some ways, that like once this was set in

631
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 2: motion it couldn't be stopped, is much more upsetting to me.

632
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, And also it's not just his I think it's

633
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 3: more just like his class, you know that like the

634
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 3: burgeoning tech oligar class. Yeah, they really were made deeply uncomfortable, Yeah,

635
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 3: by by a brand of journalism that that was sometimes

636
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 3: fucked up and sometimes you know, question their power, and

637
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 3: you know that that threatened them a lot more than

638
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 3: the journalism that played by the rules one hundred percent

639
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 3: of the time and never threaten their power.

640
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this this idea too, that journalism is has

641
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: a chance at surviving. Now there's suddenly like because in

642
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 2: this new media era, there was a lot of money

643
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 2: comparatively for journalists, not money, a lot of money on

644
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 2: objective terms, but there's a lot of money coming into

645
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 2: journalism based on what journalists had gotten used to after

646
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 2: like the early Craigslist era had killed local newspapers. And

647
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 2: so there's suddenly this lifeline for reporting and you have

648
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: this explosion in sights that had started as kind of

649
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,959
Speaker 2: less legitimate. Gaker's early days is no One's p finest hour,

650
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 2: just like the earliest days of BuzzFeed, right, you know,

651
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:32,959
Speaker 2: it's kind of a clickbait site. And then they start

652
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 2: this very serious, groundbreaking news organization that really does great work,

653
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,439
Speaker 2: and it's terrifying to these guys who are like, oh shit,

654
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 2: maybe we're going to deal with more of this than

655
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 2: we ever had as opposed to it all being on

656
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,800
Speaker 2: the out and dying, and so they kind of commit

657
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 2: themselves to killing it. And this is that Silicon This

658
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 2: is Peter Teele is the first of the Silicon elite

659
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 2: to start flexing their muscles to destroy the independent media, right.

660
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 3: And I'd say more than just Silicon Valley. I mean, look,

661
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 3: you know this is now in the era when you know,

662
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 3: I was running The Daily Beast and and and you know,

663
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 3: basically there would be no major story about a rich

664
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 3: person that didn't come with a massive legal threat. Yeah. None.

665
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 3: Like the time, you could not write about a rich person.

666
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 3: I'm not talking about like their personal life. I'm talking

667
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 3: about any company that they were involved in, Yeah, their

668
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 3: business interests. Nothing would come without a legal threat. And

669
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 3: so it was just a regular part of the publishing

670
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 3: process which was deal with legal considerations. And often it

671
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 3: was the very same lawyers that were connected with the

672
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 3: Gawker case that were then being hired by everybody else

673
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 3: because they had, you know, they had learned this one trick.

674
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's one weird trick. Yeah yeah, And so

675
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 3: you know that stuff was real, and I don't know

676
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 3: that it stopped us from publishing any stories, but it

677
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 3: definitely stopped like, it definitely slowed down the pace of

678
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 3: stories for sure. And it definitely I know, I definitely

679
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,959
Speaker 3: know of others where you know, big stories got killed off. Yeah,

680
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 3: because of the because of the legal threats.

681
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 2: A chilling effect, right, it has this chilling effect, And

682
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 2: it's one of these things where this is part of

683
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 2: what this is part of what's so scary about doing

684
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 2: media right is you have to in order to stay relevant,

685
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 2: to survive, you have to explore things, you have to

686
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 2: try new things. And that also means, you know, it

687
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily mean I'm not saying every journalist would have

688
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 2: published the bub Bubba the love Sponge video, but you

689
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 2: are going to do things that are new and that

690
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 2: you can't say are covered under the laws that supported

691
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 2: you in the past when you're trying to adapt to

692
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 2: changing circumstances, and that's always going to create opportunities for

693
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 2: people to destroy you if they're scared by what you're doing. Yep, fair, Yep, Yeah,

694
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 2: I think that that that gets at it. I hope

695
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 2: in a way that's pretty fair. Speaking of destroying your enemies,

696
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: you know who my enemies aren't.

697
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 3: Noah, the people who advertise on this podcast.

698
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 2: That's right. None of them are my enemies. None of them. Whatever.

699
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 2: Sue journalists for reporting on their personal business, you know,

700
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 2: and if they have, no, they didn't. You didn't see that,

701
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 2: deny the evidence of your rise in ears. That's the

702
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 2: behind the mastards promise. Ah, we're back. So one of

703
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 2: the results of the Gawker lawsuit is that Peter gets

704
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 2: put thrust in the public awareness and gets criticized in

705
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 2: a much bigger way after this, right he is no

706
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 2: longer is kind of like, oh, he's just this smart founder,

707
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 2: he's kind of a libertarian. He probably has a couple

708
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 2: of different stances like, oh, this guy's like a dangerous

709
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 2: right wing ghoul. Right, Like, that's that's really people. And

710
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: this happens right May of March twenty sixteen is when

711
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 2: the Gawker case, you know, gets closed in court, and

712
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:01,240
Speaker 2: obviously Peter becomes like the Republican parties bigger single funder

713
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 2: I think during this period, and it's our capped. I

714
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 2: think he's at least one of them. Because of the

715
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 2: way money works in all of this, it's kind of

716
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 2: hard to say that for a statement. But he's a

717
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 2: major donor and he speaks at the twenty sixteen RNC

718
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 2: where he endorses Donald Trump, and he makes a big

719
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 2: deal about the fact that I am a gay Republican.

720
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 2: The Republicans are welcoming now, you know, they'll accept you,

721
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 2: unlike these evil liberals who aren't really tolerant. The Republicans

722
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 2: accept me a gay man. And obviously, like that was

723
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: the thing that Republicans were doing at the time, like

724
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 2: Trump because the Pulse Nice club shooting was like a

725
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 2: Muslim who did it, Like I could really, you know,

726
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 2: pretend to be defending gay people and anti isis credentials

727
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 2: and it works because people are make bad decisions a

728
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 2: lot of the time.

729
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 3: It's amazing. I mean, but it was such transparent bullshit

730
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 3: at the time.

731
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 2: Oh it was. It was so if you paid any attention.

732
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 2: But most voters are like most people listen to podcasts,

733
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 2: they're hearing every fourth word while they're doing the law

734
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 2: and right, so they miss ship.

735
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, okay, yes, I mean, it was just

736
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 3: it was complete, trans It was transparent.

737
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 2: I watched him give that speech at the r n

738
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: C and it was like the I felt coded in

739
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:17,240
Speaker 2: a thick layer of sick. It was nasty, man.

740
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it was also like, sure, dude, the party

741
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 3: of of of anti gay policy and rhetoric for fucking

742
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 3: decades is all of a sudden doing a made just

743
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 3: because because they've got a candidate in a wig. It's like,

744
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 3: come on, dude, like that is just not true. And

745
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 3: it was just so obvious at the time. And this

746
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 3: is like, you know, a couple of years after gay

747
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 3: marriage was was legalized.

748
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 2: Not even a couple, it was just like a year, right,

749
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 2: and Peter Marriag Yeah.

750
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's like, you know, such a major advancement.

751
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 3: It's just it's wild to me. It's wild. I don't

752
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,800
Speaker 3: believe any I do not believe one single person actually

753
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 3: believes that stuff.

754
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I don't know. It's hard to And like

755
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 2: Peter is I think the the caveat do all of this.

756
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 2: We talk about these philosophers he likes, and these visions

757
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 2: he as of the future, and it's like, maybe all

758
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 2: he really believes in is that Peter Thiel should always

759
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 2: be on top, right, Maybe maybe that's all you actually

760
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 2: need to know. That said, I also think we all

761
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 2: make up in elaborate justifications for the selfish things we

762
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 2: want to do. You know, that's being a person too,

763
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 2: So it's not it's not worthless to look at like, well,

764
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 2: how does Peter do that?

765
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 3: Right?

766
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: Because he has much more money and power than us, Right.

767
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, oh, this guy's a weirdo with authoritarian tendencies.

768
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 3: I'm a weirdo with authoritarian tendencies. We got to get

769
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 3: together somehow. Let me justify this by somehow claiming that

770
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,800
Speaker 3: because he's a New Yorker and he's not totally afraid

771
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 3: of gay people, like ye know, the rest of the

772
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 3: people up on that Republican stage, therefore I'll go with him,

773
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 3: and therefore it's fine.

774
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,240
Speaker 2: I think I think Peter's probably correct in a meaningless

775
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 2: way that I don't think Donald Trump personally is bigoted

776
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 2: against gay people, right, I don't think he gives a fuck.

777
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 2: But I think Donald Trump is willing to kill every

778
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 2: gay person in this country for Donald Trump's power, right yeah,

779
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 2: right now, yeah.

780
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's running more ads about like demonizing trans people

781
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 3: he is about any every other topic combined. That is

782
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 3: his number one closing massive kill trans people.

783
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: It's crazy and it's you know, This is as much

784
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 2: as because like it's kind of out Peter Teel's not

785
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 2: supporting the Republicans in twenty twenty four. He's not making

786
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 2: like public donations, right, And the reporting around it is like, well,

787
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 2: it's because of how angry he is that in twenty

788
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 2: twenty two they launched everything into these culture war crusades,

789
00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: and like he's really disappointed in that, and like the

790
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 2: focus and on gay people. There's stories that like has

791
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: now deceased boyfriend like kind of talked him into stopping

792
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 2: supporting Republicans because of how you know, crazy they were

793
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 2: at the Andy gay stuff at the same time, guy

794
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 2: is exactly and Blake Masters are both two of the

795
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 2: biggest anti gay like Christian fucking lifestyle crusaders out there.

796
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 2: And these guys are total teal creatures. So do I.

797
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 3: Believe any no vaccies? Man, It's not like like if

798
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 3: this guy's the uber genius, he likes to betray himself

799
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 3: as he can't be like, oh whoops, how could I

800
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 3: possibly know what you're doing?

801
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 2: You know what you're doing. Yeah. So, now this period

802
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 2: after twenty sixteen, when Peter has has really gone a whole

803
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 2: hog for Trump, people start reporting a lot more on

804
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 2: all of these other weird investments He's doing right, and

805
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 2: they start reporting on his life extension fixation. Now all

806
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 2: of his life extension investments are made through his a

807
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 2: lot of them made through his nonprofit Breakout Labs, which

808
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 2: is supporting, like you know, unconventional solutions to major problems,

809
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: and one of those major problems is extending human lifespan

810
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 2: and ending aging. Now people think this is kind of

811
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 2: quirky of Peter, so they start looking into it and

812
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 2: reporting on it, and Peter starts getting asked by journalists

813
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 2: in interviews about this. In one interview with The Washington Post,

814
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 2: he explained, I've always had this really strong sense that

815
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 2: death was a terrible, terrible thing. I think that's somewhat unusual.

816
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 2: Most people end up compartmentalizing and they're in some mode

817
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 2: of denial and acceptance about death. They both have the

818
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 2: result of making you very passive. I worry the FDA

819
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 2: is too restrictive. Pharmaceutical companies are way too bureaucratic. A

820
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 2: tiny fraction of a fraction of a fraction of NIH

821
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 2: spending goes to genuine anti aging research, the whole thing

822
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 2: gets treated like a lottery ticket. Part of the problem

823
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 2: is that aging research doesn't always lend itself to being

824
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 2: a great for profit business, but it's still a very

825
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 2: important area for philanthropic investment. And you know, one thing

826
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 2: Peter comes around on is that government funding is okay

827
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 2: if it's supporting things like anti aging research that I

828
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 2: might benefit from, right, Like, we don't need roads or schools,

829
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 2: but I don't want to die. But also I love

830
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,839
Speaker 2: this idea that like, well, normal people aren't scared of death.

831
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: Everyone's scared of death, Peter, We're just not going to

832
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 2: baby's about it. Deal with it, man, fucking take it

833
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,919
Speaker 2: on the chin, motherfucker. God.

834
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 3: No, Look, you can argue. I think there's plenty of

835
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 3: great arguments that, like the way drugs are kind of

836
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 3: okay in this country.

837
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 2: Is saying there's not ways that the FDA could be better. Yeah.

838
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 3: Yeah. One of my favorite Peter Teel medical stories from

839
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 3: that era that we reported on at the time was

840
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 3: he was very upset with how the FDA was handling

841
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 3: herpies drugs, and so he bankrolled a series of quasi

842
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 3: legal certainly sidestepping around US safety rules. Let's just call

843
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 3: them gray market market in the Caribbean.

844
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 2: I think it like, oh man, that's fun that's good.

845
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 2: That's just good stuff.

846
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 3: Objected with like off, you know, with like untried non

847
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 3: anti virus.

848
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, awesome, awesome, he's your black market val cyc Lavie

849
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 2: for his fucking awesome so good.

850
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 3: At the time, was a dying doctor Peter Teel and

851
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 3: a rogue herpes vaccine trial gone wrong?

852
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 2: Oh man, that's so funny. No, no, rogue herpes vaccine

853
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: trial not an attractive series of words to have attached

854
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 2: to your name.

855
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 3: No touch to your and so you definitely don't want

856
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 3: it to all go wrong.

857
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, your rogue vaccine trial you really

858
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 2: want to work out.

859
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, you want that to go excellently.

860
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't want to have made everyone at your

861
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 2: fucking creepy beach parties take a bad vaccine? Did he

862
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 2: give everyone herpes? What happened there?

863
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 3: I'm trying to remember. I'm just looking through the name

864
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 3: of the company was Rational Vaccines, which.

865
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 2: I haven't Oh, I like that.

866
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 3: Rational vaccines.

867
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, all the irrational ones out there.

868
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 3: No Institutional Review board or i RB to monitor the

869
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 3: safety of the trials. That No, Yeah, you definitely don't

870
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 3: want to have a safe purpose control group.

871
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 2: What's that useful for?

872
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, didn't know how aware was manufactured, whether it needed

873
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 3: booster shots. Yeah, no, this was.

874
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 4: All all all the things that you would hope that

875
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 4: they would know.

876
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know. Now, but look, I mean I

877
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 3: think a lot of billionaires, uh do I think that

878
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 3: that is something not completely uncommon in the billionaire classes,

879
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 3: Like you know, I'm going to do you know, I'm

880
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:03,240
Speaker 3: going to hack science or I'm or the science industrial complex.

881
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 3: You know, I'm going to really disrupt science. And what

882
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 3: better way to do that than with the herpes?

883
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, disrupt herpees, I guess, not hurting it at all.

884
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 3: Let's say one trial recipient started getting ringing in his

885
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 3: ears and squirred speech.

886
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Yeah, let's just give everyone something worse

887
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 2: than herpes.

888
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 3: Then, a Colorado woman in her forties said she got

889
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,720
Speaker 3: flu like aches and numbness soon after the second shot.

890
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 3: Numbness not a good thing to get after her now.

891
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 3: The symptoms were followed by a quote excruciating thirty day

892
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 3: outbreak of herpes.

893
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 2: Great, wow, thirty days. That's a long time to have

894
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 2: a herpes out break.

895
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 3: I have new symptoms every day. That one later told Halford,

896
00:47:58,480 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 3: this is terrifying.

897
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 2: Disrupted herpes. You know, before it was an incredibly manageable

898
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: viral illness that can be easily handled with medication, and

899
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 2: now people have month long outbreaks. You did it again, Peter.

900
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 2: You moved fast and you broke herpies.

901
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:21,439
Speaker 3: It sounds like they broke quite a few other things too, jeess.

902
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, so funny, okay. So in August of twenty sixteen,

903
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 2: the same month that Peter shows up at v r

904
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 2: N see Maya Kossoff published an article titled Peter Teal

905
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 2: wants to inject himself with young people's blood. Now this

906
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,360
Speaker 2: is not the first reporting on Peter Teal's interest in blood,

907
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 2: but I think because of the title, this is one

908
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,399
Speaker 2: that has like a big impact on you know how

909
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 2: people like how that rumor starts to spread. Now, the

910
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 2: actual ultimate source of this was an article published in

911
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 2: the same week for Ink magazine by Jeff Berkovici, who

912
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,240
Speaker 2: put out an old interview he'd done a year before

913
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 2: with Teal that touched on Peter's interest in what's called

914
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 2: a biosis quote, which includes the practice of getting transfusions

915
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 2: of blood from a younger person as a means of

916
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 2: improving health and potentially reversing aging. I'm looking into parabiosis stuff,

917
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 2: which I think is really interesting. This is where they

918
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 2: did the young blood into older mice and they found

919
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 2: that it had a massive rejuvenating effect. And so that

920
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 2: is one that Again it's one of these very odd

921
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 2: things where people had done these studies in the nineteen

922
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: fifties and then it got dropped altogether. I think a

923
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 2: lot of these things have been strangely under explored. Now.

924
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 2: The reason parabiosis was under explore under explored is that

925
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 2: it doesn't really work right. Blood transfusions are amazing medicine

926
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 2: for the reasons that you would think, like when people

927
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 2: lose all their blood, right, great to be able to

928
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 2: give people a blood transfusion when they have been shot

929
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,240
Speaker 2: and bled out. It's not going to make you young, because

930
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 2: of course, it doesn't work that way, because that's stupid.

931
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 2: It's stupid that it would work that way. That's not

932
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 2: how blood works, and it's not how aging works, and

933
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 2: you're silly for thinking it. Oh no, no, Unfortunately, nothing

934
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 2: can stop aging, except apparently taking lots of HGH and testosterone.

935
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,320
Speaker 2: Huh you don't, noah, do you have twelve thousand dollars

936
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 2: a month because I could. I can help you out

937
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:08,879
Speaker 2: with a plan here.

938
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I definitely got that.

939
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 2: His name is his name is Vito. He will meet

940
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 2: you at the gym with a trash bag, and yeah,

941
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 2: you too could have a trash bag.

942
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,320
Speaker 3: I can drain him of his blood, Yeah.

943
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 2: Sure, when I don't care what happens to Veto, like

944
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 2: he's a steroid dealer, like his life has no value.

945
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 2: Like we're good either way. There, I can I can

946
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 2: do both.

947
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 3: I could be I could be Belton Suspenders.

948
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can take Vito's blood, although Vito's blood is

949
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 2: going to be even more HGH in testosteron and I'm

950
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 2: going to warn you about that right now. Your your

951
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 2: hgh gut is going to have its own gravitational pull

952
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 2: like the moon or like Joe Rogan's HGH gut.

953
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:54,879
Speaker 3: Oh I know, I know that's really that is really unfortunately. Okay,

954
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,839
Speaker 3: So you're telling me so veto take his blood.

955
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 2: Take pre hghd you don't need anymore. You literally can't

956
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 2: fit more HGH in your blood than Veto has in his.

957
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 2: And then you just sell that sack of gear to

958
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,359
Speaker 2: somebody else who wants to spend twelve grand on gear.

959
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 3: You know it's a beautiful So I'm gonna do ya

960
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 3: d The next time we do this podcast, I'm gonna

961
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 3: be ripping this fucking lapt.

962
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 2: You're gonna be deadlifting eleven pounds, Yeah, bursting your colon

963
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 2: out and she gets your Yeah.

964
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 3: It's going to be the size of a thimble.

965
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, you can read the Lord of the rings

966
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 2: and braille and the acne on your back.

967
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 3: It's going to be incredible, man.

968
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, Brocovicci reported that a Teal Capital employee who

969
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 2: was also Peter's personal health director had ties to Jesse

970
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 2: car Mason, the founder of Ambrosia LLC. And I would

971
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 2: if we had more time, there's so much Peter to

972
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 2: get into, we would talk more about all of these

973
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 2: different grifters. Carmesan is very fun. Legally, I'm not calling

974
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 2: him a grifter. I just don't think what he was

975
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 2: trying to do really works. But he did provide the

976
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 2: product that he claimed. Ambrosia LLC was looking for volunteers

977
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 2: over the age of thirty five to receive blood transfusions

978
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 2: from the young Goker reported around this time that they

979
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 2: had gotten a tip and again, this is right after

980
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,479
Speaker 2: the lawsuit has concluded that Teal spent forty thousand dollars

981
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,439
Speaker 2: a quarter to get blood transfusions from an eighteen year old. Now,

982
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 2: is Gker just trying to take a shot at Peter

983
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 2: because of what happened? There's not outside evidence of this, right,

984
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 2: nothing's ever come forward to make it clear that Teal

985
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 2: definitely was taking the blood of the young right. In interviews,

986
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 2: Peter has always been consistent that he had he never

987
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 2: got around to starting it, right. He told a reporter

988
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 2: that he hadn't quite started yet, and he has since

989
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 2: denied ever taking the blood of the young, telling that

990
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 2: Andrew Sorkin at Deal Book on the record, I am

991
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 2: not a vampire, which I have to say, is something

992
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:57,800
Speaker 2: a vampire would say. He's like Alla on one hand,

993
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 2: only a vampire would say that, because normal people don't

994
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,839
Speaker 2: have any reason to deny being vampires. Yeah, right, I.

995
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 3: Mean that's that is that's pretty that still kind of rules.

996
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 2: So I think there's a good chance he never actually

997
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 2: did this, not because he wouldn't, but just because I

998
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 2: think it became clear pretty early on that this didn't work. Right.

999
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:19,399
Speaker 2: Brian Johnson, The Big Life extension guy taught like took

1000
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 2: his son's blood for a while, and I think has

1001
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,799
Speaker 2: stopped because it just doesn't do anything. Peter is not.

1002
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 2: I don't think Peter would care that people were calling

1003
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 2: him a vampire if this worked, right, because he's open

1004
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 2: about that. He takes HGH as like a life extension thing, right, Like,

1005
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 2: I don't think he would hide it if he was

1006
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 2: on it. I think maybe it just the science was

1007
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 2: not there in any real way, and Peter's not going

1008
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:43,760
Speaker 2: to do something like this, like it's it's not pleasant,

1009
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 2: probably like you wouldn't want to get constant blood transfusions

1010
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 2: if you weren't convinced it. Did something.

1011
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 3: Speak for yourself.

1012
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, some of us just like blood. From an article

1013
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 2: in Business Insider quote, Teal told Bloomberg TV in twenty

1014
00:53:57,520 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 2: fourteen that he was taking Human growth home on pills

1015
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 2: known as HGH. Teel toad Bloomberg TV that he believes

1016
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 2: HGH can help maintain muscle mass, so that's less likely

1017
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 2: to get bone injuries and arthritis and stuff like that

1018
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 2: as you get older, which is true. I'm sure there

1019
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 2: are some problems of aging that HGH helps you avoid.

1020
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,760
Speaker 2: But HGH has side effects. You can get carpal tunnel

1021
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 2: from it, you can get muscle and joint pain, you

1022
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 2: get an increased risk of cancer. Research has shown that

1023
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 2: people in animals whose natural levels of HGH are high

1024
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:28,879
Speaker 2: are likely to die at a younger age than those

1025
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 2: with lower levels of HGH. So I don't know that

1026
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 2: I would take this gamble. I think this may just

1027
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:40,360
Speaker 2: be a case of Peter wanting the cosmetic benefits of HGH.

1028
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 2: It makes you look jacked, even if you don't spend

1029
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 2: all that much time working out as opposed to, Peter

1030
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 2: truly believes this is a life extension technology. I think

1031
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:52,919
Speaker 2: it's probably more accurate that he convinced himself it's keeping

1032
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 2: him young because it has cosmetic benefits that he appreciates. Right,

1033
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 2: My stance and all this life extension stuff is that

1034
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 2: Peter Teal will die one day, and as is the

1035
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:04,800
Speaker 2: case with all of us, he will probably die sooner

1036
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 2: than he expects, because that's just the way shit goes. Sorry, Peter,

1037
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 2: I recommend making peace with it. That's the only real

1038
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 2: way to handle this. Now. I went back and forth

1039
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 2: with myself for how much to cover of each of

1040
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:22,320
Speaker 2: Peter's evil interests For example, in twenty sixteen, Peter was

1041
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:24,959
Speaker 2: a mega donor to the Republican Party, but like most

1042
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 2: people who get involved with Trump, he soured on him quickly,

1043
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 2: and he avoided donating to Trump's reelection campaign in twenty

1044
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 2: twenty out of what he described as frustration with Trump's personality. Right,

1045
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 2: I don't disagree with any of his policy, but I'm

1046
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 2: angry at how much he's become the story. Right. In

1047
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,840
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, he got back in the electioneering saddle,

1048
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 2: and he backed Jdvance and Blake Masters with unprecedented donations.

1049
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 2: He gives more money to jd Vance than a single

1050
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 2: candidate had ever received for a congressional seat. In all,

1051
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 2: Peter Teel put thirty five million dollars in twenty twenty

1052
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 2: two into sixteen federal level Republican candidates, and twelve of

1053
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,880
Speaker 2: them win. But the overall performance of the GOP in

1054
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 2: those midterms is famously poor. And it's famously poor because

1055
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 2: a big part of their campaign rhetoric was spurred by

1056
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:15,879
Speaker 2: irrational bigotry against LGBT and particularly Tea Americans. Peter would

1057
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 2: publicly state that this frustrated him. I think this has

1058
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 2: to do with the fact that there's a guy he's

1059
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 2: dating at the time who is a like a gay

1060
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 2: male model and who will give later interviews. I think

1061
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 2: these are kind of we're actually right around this point

1062
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 2: where he says that, like, yeah, I talked to him

1063
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 2: about this and like convinced him to stop right because

1064
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 2: I think these people are toxic and they're bad for us,

1065
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 2: and I didn't think he should be doing this. This

1066
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 2: model's name was Jeff Thomas, as we'll talk about. He's

1067
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 2: deceased now, but you know he would claim that, like

1068
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:52,439
Speaker 2: I talked to pee, and I don't see why Jeff

1069
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 2: would have necessarily light about this other than that, I

1070
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 2: think Jeff was getting shit for his associated with Teal

1071
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 2: because of how much more aggressive Republicans were being at

1072
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 2: gay people. So maybe that's was Jeff's reason to want

1073
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 2: to say this. Teal is going to set out twenty

1074
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,240
Speaker 2: twenty four, but he does. It's kind of worth noting

1075
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 2: if you're trying to take seriously this idea that he

1076
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 2: stopped backing Republicans because of a toxic they were getting.

1077
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 2: He backs the most toxic of them in twenty twenty two.

1078
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 2: So I just don't know how much to take that

1079
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 2: I don't think I should take that very seriously. Now

1080
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 2: I could say more about how teal c steading ambitions

1081
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 2: have metastasized to a broader quest by some Silicon Valley

1082
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 2: elites to create an independent network state rule by big

1083
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 2: tech in a place like California. I probably should, but

1084
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 2: we'll leave it with this, which is that one of

1085
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 2: the major advocates of the network state movement is an

1086
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 2: investor named Belaji Shrinevasen, whof Teal suggested to Trump should

1087
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:51,439
Speaker 2: lead the FDA in twenty sixteen. Thankfully, Lash didn't wind

1088
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 2: up leading the FDA. But this guy is a really

1089
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:58,440
Speaker 2: dangerous dude, and he's taken some of these ideas, these

1090
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 2: Curtis Jarvin ideas that heel started to mainstream, and he's

1091
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 2: been twisting them into very dark directions. In twenty twenty two,

1092
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 2: his book The Network State described a plan for tech

1093
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 2: oligarchs to make their own countries, escaping democracy. At the

1094
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 2: same time, one of his chief plots was to conquer

1095
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 2: San Francisco. Here's a repoet from an article in The

1096
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 2: New Republic on Blaji's current advocacy. What I'm currently really

1097
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 2: calling for is something like tech Zionism, he said, after

1098
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 2: comparing his movement to those started by the Biblical Abraham,

1099
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, Theodore Herzel,

1100
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 2: the spiritual founder of the State of Israel, and le

1101
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 2: Kwan Yu, former authoritarian ruler of Singapore. What a collection.

1102
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 2: Bolaji then revealed his shocking idea for a tech governed

1103
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 2: city where citizens loyal to tech companies would form a

1104
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 2: new political tribe clad in gray shirts. And if you

1105
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 2: see another gray on the street, you do the nod,

1106
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 2: he said during a four hour talk on the Moment

1107
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 2: of Zen podcast. You're a Fellow Gray. The gray shirts

1108
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 2: would feature Bitcoin or Elon or other kinds of logos

1109
00:58:57,800 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 2: white combinators, a good one for the city of sam

1110
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:02,919
Speaker 2: says go In particular, Grays would also receive special ID

1111
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:06,920
Speaker 2: cards preventing access to exclusive Gray controlled sectors of the city.

1112
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:09,080
Speaker 2: In addition, the Grays would make an alliance with the

1113
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 2: police department, funding weekly policemen's banquets to win them over.

1114
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 2: Gray should embrace the police. Okay, all in on the police,

1115
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 2: said schmid Nevawsen. What does that mean? That means, as

1116
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 2: I said, banquets, That means every policeman's son, dotter, wife, cousin,

1117
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 2: you know, sibling, or whatever. She'd get a job at

1118
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 2: a tech company in security. In exchange for extra food

1119
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:30,919
Speaker 2: and jobs, cops would pledge loyalty to the Grays. Shrinivasen

1120
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 2: recommends asking officers a series of questions to ascertain their

1121
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 2: political leanings. For example, did you want to take the

1122
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:46,480
Speaker 2: sign off Elon's building? Some shit, absolute loser. Shit is stupid,

1123
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 2: fucking X sign incredibly fun.

1124
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 3: This is like it's like as if no Nazi ever

1125
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 3: got a blowjob. Hmmm, this is what. Yeah, they would

1126
00:59:58,560 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 3: come up with.

1127
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 2: The fucking Grays.

1128
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 3: So's we'll talk about like.

1129
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 2: He deserves more all of this. We're having the YadA

1130
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:12,240
Speaker 2: YadA so much just because like Peter is involved in

1131
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 2: so much. You know, I can't responsibly. This is like

1132
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 2: I think I'm trying to just give as much of

1133
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 2: an overview as I can here. You should do more reading.

1134
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 3: Do you think the Grays thing is like some kind

1135
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:26,200
Speaker 3: of aliens thing, Like, yes, we're the Grays?

1136
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 2: Like I think, I mean, I think he's he's recognizes

1137
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 2: that it takes advantage of kind of that symbology. But no,

1138
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 2: I think it's not even that creative.

1139
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 3: We're gonna have something cool on our shirts, like, yeah.

1140
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 2: We got a picture of fucking Elon or a doze.

1141
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 2: I'm sure, my god.

1142
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,840
Speaker 3: We're gonna have the wide Combinator, and all the cops

1143
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 3: are gonna love jobs.

1144
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 2: You're gonna give the cops kids jobs. Their failed sons

1145
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 2: will get to work at our security companies. Yeah, they'll

1146
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 2: keep it safe. Yeah. So I'm gonna move on to

1147
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 2: talk a little bit at the end here about Peter's

1148
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 2: war on higher education. He started his public life by

1149
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 2: all authoring a book with David Sachs on the intellectual

1150
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 2: corruption in American academia. As a multi billionaire, he launched

1151
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 2: a program to prove higher education unnecessary, the Teal Fellowship.

1152
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:15,080
Speaker 2: The idea behind the much ballyhooed Fellowship was that Peter

1153
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 2: would pick twenty students per year and give them each

1154
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand dollars to drop out of school and

1155
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 2: do their own thing trying to start a business with

1156
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 2: some support from the Teal Foundation. Basically, Peter pays for

1157
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 2: you to figure out a company you want to start,

1158
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 2: and your association with him makes it easy for you

1159
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:33,680
Speaker 2: to get VC bucks and keeping with his supreme weirdness

1160
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 2: as a dude. Teal announced the initiative by attacking the

1161
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 2: Catholic Church kind of, if you get into the right college,

1162
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 2: you'll be saved. If you don't, you're in trouble. As

1163
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 2: I've said, colleges are as corrupt as the Catholic Church

1164
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 2: was five hundred years ago. They're sort of charging people

1165
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 2: more and more. It's the system of indulgences. You have

1166
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 2: this priestly or professorial class that doesn't do very much work,

1167
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 2: and you basically tell people that if you get a diploma,

1168
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 2: you're saved. Otherwise you go to hell. And like, that's

1169
01:01:56,960 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 2: such a weird way to look at it, because it's

1170
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:03,040
Speaker 2: it's not the professor who have made college expensive. In part,

1171
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 2: it's like the same reason people like you, these VC

1172
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:09,800
Speaker 2: ghouls that you know who are part of the administrator

1173
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:12,479
Speaker 2: class we're sitting on the boards of these colleges, want

1174
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 2: more money. Like, it's not a random Marxist professor who

1175
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 2: has decided that college is going to cost eighty thousand

1176
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:23,200
Speaker 2: dollars a semester. That guy doesn't benefit from that situation, right.

1177
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 3: Not at all. They get paid the same amount of money.

1178
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, yeah, look, I remember when.

1179
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 3: This came out and I was like, you know what

1180
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 3: it like. I can sort of get down with.

1181
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 2: The idea of like circumveying your I don't think college

1182
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 2: is best for it. I drop down, right. A lot

1183
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 2: of people benefit from not doing college. But this, this

1184
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 2: going to war with college is such a weird movement,

1185
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:49,919
Speaker 2: such a weird thing to do.

1186
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:53,680
Speaker 3: He said, Hey, this isn't worth college isn't worth it.

1187
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 3: Take my money, that's worth it. See, but like college

1188
01:02:58,200 --> 01:02:59,479
Speaker 3: is a Catholic church.

1189
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:05,280
Speaker 2: I don't Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Now,

1190
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 2: depending on who you ask, the program could be viewed

1191
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 2: as a success or a failure, because the program that

1192
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 2: comes out of this is that like Peter's going to

1193
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 2: pay one hundred grand per student if you try to

1194
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 2: drop out of college. Right from an article on the

1195
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 2: website Education Surge. A columnist for Bloomberg who is himself

1196
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,920
Speaker 2: a venture capitalist, Aaron Brown, recently did an analysis of

1197
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:27,800
Speaker 2: the two hundred and seventy one people who have received

1198
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 2: a Teal Fellowship since the program began, and it turns

1199
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:32,680
Speaker 2: out eleven of them have gone on to start new

1200
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:35,400
Speaker 2: companies now valued at more than a billion dollars, making

1201
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 2: them what are called unicorns in the industry. He sees

1202
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 2: that as a pretty remarkable record for finding unicorns. It's

1203
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:44,000
Speaker 2: not like colleges aren't trying to encourage their students to

1204
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 2: start companies through various programs. Brown says, none of those

1205
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 2: have been anywhere near as successful as giving these kids

1206
01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand dollars and sending them out into the world.

1207
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 2: So that's one analysis of the program. Max Chafkin, you

1208
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 2: won't be surprised to hear, gives a more critical summary

1209
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 2: of things. First off, he alleges the foundation was started

1210
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 2: in part for the media attention it would get, which

1211
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 2: would distract people from the fact that Peter's Founder's Fund

1212
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 2: has lost a lot of investors after his hedge fund

1213
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 2: fell apart. Peter launched the Fellowship with a characteristic five

1214
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:15,240
Speaker 2: thousand word essay on what happened to the Future written

1215
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:18,160
Speaker 2: by his partner at the Founder's vund, Bruce Gibney. It

1216
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:20,960
Speaker 2: includes the line we wanted flying cars, and we got

1217
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:24,720
Speaker 2: one hundred and forty characters. Thus, the Fellowship was a

1218
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:27,080
Speaker 2: small attempt to get the future back on track by

1219
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 2: encouraging ambitious geniuses to take big swings and not just

1220
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 2: work for the man making fake technologies solving fake problems.

1221
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 2: Chaefkin points out that these kinds of fake technologies were

1222
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:40,120
Speaker 2: precisely where the Founder's Fund had invested its money for years.

1223
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:43,640
Speaker 2: Founder's fund backed Facebook, a social network just like Twitter,

1224
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:45,960
Speaker 2: as well as path, Gowala, and slide, which were all

1225
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 2: social media companies. The last one, which had been started

1226
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:51,920
Speaker 2: by Teal's PayPal co founder Max Levchin, was known for

1227
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:55,760
Speaker 2: something called super Poke, which have allowed users to virtually slap, punch,

1228
01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:57,960
Speaker 2: and grope their Facebook friends, and was about as far

1229
01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 2: from the randy and ideal as one good man imagine.

1230
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:04,080
Speaker 2: The fellowship did connect some young men with funding that

1231
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 2: wound up leading to profitable companies, but none of them

1232
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 2: gave us the flying car or anything but more of

1233
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:13,560
Speaker 2: the same overvalued Silicon Valley bullshit, and Schafgan argues the

1234
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:15,640
Speaker 2: program than damage to some of the young people in it.

1235
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:18,479
Speaker 2: For one thing, the program tossed kids into the Bay

1236
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:20,880
Speaker 2: Area with little mounted to a small sum of money

1237
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 2: and very little social support or institutional support. Ironically, the

1238
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:27,760
Speaker 2: kinds of things that universities are decent at providing. Quote,

1239
01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:30,160
Speaker 2: they showed up in California, only to find out that

1240
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 2: the actual execution of the fellowship was basically an afterthought.

1241
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:36,360
Speaker 2: Once Teal had achieved its marketing goal, there was no

1242
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:39,160
Speaker 2: structure to speak up beyond that suggestion and the requirement

1243
01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 2: that they not enroll in school or take a full

1244
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:45,160
Speaker 2: time job. Some former fellows talked to Schaefkan and made

1245
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 2: the very interesting point that the actual benefit of the

1246
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:50,120
Speaker 2: fellowship was essentially the same as what you got out

1247
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 2: of an Ivy League school, access to powerful people in money.

1248
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:57,480
Speaker 2: The Teal program, one fellow told, promised libertarian capitalism in

1249
01:05:57,520 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 2: a supportive community that would reward creativity rather than Machiavellian maneuvering.

1250
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:04,640
Speaker 2: What I found was comically not that he said. It

1251
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:07,880
Speaker 2: was college without the classes, a residential community, or studying.

1252
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:11,120
Speaker 2: In short, most of what was enriching about college. It

1253
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 2: wasn't an attack on a credentialing system. It was another

1254
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 2: credential And of course, yeah, yeah, I think that gets

1255
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:21,360
Speaker 2: it right. The greatest privilege of wealth is the ability

1256
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:24,800
Speaker 2: to be taken seriously as a diletant. Right. You don't

1257
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 2: have to know anything, you don't have to earn your

1258
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:28,680
Speaker 2: way in to show up with a bunch of money

1259
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:31,720
Speaker 2: and be a serious player. Now, sometimes this works out.

1260
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:34,400
Speaker 2: That's what James Cameron does with deep sea exploration. But

1261
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:37,160
Speaker 2: he's a real he becomes a legitimate expert, right, Like,

1262
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 2: No one can argue that at this point, But James

1263
01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:42,440
Speaker 2: Cameron very rarely is that how it works out. Usually,

1264
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:44,920
Speaker 2: usually it works out like this, right.

1265
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 3: It's usually more like the difshit who've got everybody killed

1266
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 3: in the.

1267
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:53,800
Speaker 2: Exact right, Stockton Rush. Yes, Peter represents the other side

1268
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:56,800
Speaker 2: of the coin, and perhaps his longest lingering danger next

1269
01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:59,600
Speaker 2: to the career of JD Vance is his company Pallantier,

1270
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 2: And we're close by talking some about Palenteer. In the

1271
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 2: year since JP Morgan signed on and saw their whole

1272
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 2: c suite get spined on, Palenteer has spread over the globe.

1273
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 2: It gained a great deal of influence after the US

1274
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:14,280
Speaker 2: killed bin Laden, and some people insinuated that Pallenteer's tech

1275
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:17,280
Speaker 2: had helped track the terrorists down. This appears to be untrue,

1276
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:19,120
Speaker 2: but it spread far and wide enough that you can

1277
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:21,440
Speaker 2: find plenty of critical reporting on the company that will

1278
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:24,680
Speaker 2: point out its alleged connection to bin Laden's death. After

1279
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:27,800
Speaker 2: Trunk took office, Peter saw his most nativest dreams come

1280
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,360
Speaker 2: true in a way that meant big bucks for Palenteer.

1281
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:34,680
Speaker 2: They made a contract with ICE and Homeland Security Investigations

1282
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:37,640
Speaker 2: for thirty eight million dollars. This led to them providing

1283
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:41,520
Speaker 2: software for a twenty seventeen operation that targeted unaccompanied children

1284
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:43,920
Speaker 2: and their families tried to enter the United States. This

1285
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 2: was the Kids in Cages scandal. And I'm going to

1286
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:49,000
Speaker 2: read an excerpt from the Intercept next. I think Ryan

1287
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 2: Grimm wrote this one. Documents obtained through Freedom of Information

1288
01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:55,920
Speaker 2: Act litigation provided to the Intercept show that this claim

1289
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 2: that Palenteer software is strictly involved in criminal investigations as

1290
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 2: supposed to deport tiations is false. The discrepancy between the

1291
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:05,680
Speaker 2: private intelligence firm's public assertion and the reality conveyed in

1292
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 2: the newly released documents was first revealed by Mihinte, an

1293
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 2: advocacy organization that has closely tracked Palenteer's murkey role in

1294
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:16,960
Speaker 2: immigration enforcement. Far from a detached support in cross border

1295
01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:20,040
Speaker 2: criminal investigations, the materials released this week confirmed the role

1296
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:23,679
Speaker 2: Palateer played in facilitating hundreds of arrests, only a small

1297
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:27,320
Speaker 2: fraction of which actually led to criminal prosecutions. The document

1298
01:08:27,360 --> 01:08:29,639
Speaker 2: makes it clear that the operation which would directly target

1299
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:31,960
Speaker 2: the parents and other family members of children apprehended at

1300
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:34,880
Speaker 2: the border, all with help of Palateer's case management app.

1301
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:38,439
Speaker 2: The document continues to instruct that if sufficient information on

1302
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:41,920
Speaker 2: parents or family members is obtained while investigating an unaccompanied child,

1303
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:45,080
Speaker 2: a collateral case would be sent to the affected team

1304
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 2: for action. The instructions make it clear that enabled inquiries

1305
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 2: could result in charges against a child's family. Teams will

1306
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:54,960
Speaker 2: be available immediately to conduct database checks and provide and

1307
01:08:55,040 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 2: contact super a suspected sponsor, parent or family members to identify, interview,

1308
01:09:00,360 --> 01:09:03,880
Speaker 2: and if applical, seek charges against the individual and administratively

1309
01:09:03,920 --> 01:09:06,720
Speaker 2: arrest the subjects and anybody encountered during the inquiry who

1310
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:11,120
Speaker 2: was not who was out of status. So the Palenteer

1311
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:13,840
Speaker 2: aided campaign to hunt down and arrest family members of

1312
01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:16,519
Speaker 2: children who crossed the border alone was touted by the

1313
01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:20,120
Speaker 2: Trump administration's top immigration hardliners as a necessary measure to

1314
01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:23,719
Speaker 2: de tear asylum seekers from making the journey north. According

1315
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:26,879
Speaker 2: to figures ICE provided the intercept on Monday, the twenty

1316
01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:29,320
Speaker 2: seventeen initiative led to four hundred and forty three arrests,

1317
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 2: including thirty five criminal arrests. Prosecutions, however, were much more

1318
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:35,839
Speaker 2: difficult to come by, with ICE, acknowledging that the campaign

1319
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 2: led to just thirty eight prosecutions related to alien smuggling

1320
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:43,320
Speaker 2: or re entry of removed aliens. Karp, the avowed neo Marxist,

1321
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:46,840
Speaker 2: had initially expressed frustration at his company being involved in

1322
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:49,960
Speaker 2: government overreach. In twent and thirteen, he told Forbes, I

1323
01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 2: didn't sign up for the government to know when I

1324
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:53,760
Speaker 2: smoke a joint or have an affair. But in the

1325
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:56,280
Speaker 2: wake of reporting on his company's involvement in ICE, when

1326
01:09:56,280 --> 01:10:00,160
Speaker 2: some employees that Pallunteer pushed to divest themselves from work

1327
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:03,360
Speaker 2: with ICE, Karp pushed to renew a forty two million

1328
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:06,080
Speaker 2: dollar ICE contract and attacked workers at Google and other

1329
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:09,599
Speaker 2: Silicon Valley companies that had protested contracts with the military

1330
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:12,519
Speaker 2: and law enforcement. In the first couple years after Trump

1331
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:16,719
Speaker 2: took office, Pallanteer acquired contracts potentially worth hundreds of millions

1332
01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:19,639
Speaker 2: of dollars more than the total revenue they perceived from

1333
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:23,479
Speaker 2: the US government during Obama's entire second term. Palenteer has

1334
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:26,720
Speaker 2: at varying points explored deals with the Saudis, and in

1335
01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:29,640
Speaker 2: January Karp flew to Israel to express solidarity with the

1336
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:32,599
Speaker 2: Israeli government, and one presumes make the case for why

1337
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:35,880
Speaker 2: the IDF should buy his company's products at the moment.

1338
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:39,519
Speaker 2: Pallenteer's technology is also heavily used in Ukraine, where by

1339
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:42,519
Speaker 2: some accounts, it plays a major role in targeting decisions. Now,

1340
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:44,920
Speaker 2: I am hesitant to rely on a lot of reporting

1341
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:48,840
Speaker 2: that basically asks iftise acts as advertisements for Palenteer's technology,

1342
01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:52,240
Speaker 2: but there is some evidence that their algorithmic analysis has

1343
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 2: been useful in allowing Ukraine to more efficiently target and

1344
01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:58,439
Speaker 2: expend munitions on the battlefield. It is not really possible

1345
01:10:58,439 --> 01:11:02,599
Speaker 2: for me to analyze how how effective Palateer's technology is here, right,

1346
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:06,320
Speaker 2: in part because information siloing in a war with this

1347
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:09,439
Speaker 2: kind of stuff is so effective. I do worry about

1348
01:11:09,479 --> 01:11:11,960
Speaker 2: how much a lot of the reporting on the efficacy

1349
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:14,880
Speaker 2: of Palateering Ukraine, how much of it sounds like an

1350
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:18,320
Speaker 2: ad And I'm always very questionable about early reports that

1351
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:23,479
Speaker 2: military and intelligence products are like game changingly effective, right,

1352
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:27,080
Speaker 2: because a lot of the time that winds up being overblown. Right,

1353
01:11:27,320 --> 01:11:29,840
Speaker 2: I can't say that it is. I don't know. This

1354
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 2: is something that will be adjudicated in the march of time. Right,

1355
01:11:33,280 --> 01:11:34,400
Speaker 2: this is still all going on.

1356
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:37,679
Speaker 4: There was an article today from Reuters. Did you read

1357
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:38,000
Speaker 4: that one?

1358
01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:40,000
Speaker 2: No? No, I mean no nothing today.

1359
01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:42,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, there was an article that came out today that

1360
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:45,479
Speaker 4: that Paleteer was dumped by their Norwegian investor over their

1361
01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 4: work with Israel.

1362
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:50,040
Speaker 2: That's interesting and there I could we should probably talk

1363
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:52,679
Speaker 2: more about that. It's just this is all coming out.

1364
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:56,479
Speaker 2: Like Karp recently visited Israel earlier at the start of

1365
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 2: this year to kind of make overtures directly to the

1366
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:02,960
Speaker 2: Israeli government. Israel most of their like AI targeting that's

1367
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 2: gotten so rightly covered is not through Palenteer, but Palaeer

1368
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 2: clearly wants to be in that business with Israel, right,

1369
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 2: Like they're seeing what's going on in Gaza and like

1370
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:13,599
Speaker 2: this is a place where we can make a lot

1371
01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:17,200
Speaker 2: of money. You know. It's just a case where I

1372
01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:18,800
Speaker 2: think they kind of got beaten to the punch on

1373
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 2: some of this stuff. When it comes to what they've

1374
01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:24,760
Speaker 2: been doing in Ukraine, Pallanteer has played a big role

1375
01:12:24,800 --> 01:12:26,840
Speaker 2: in turning the war in Ukraine into what center for

1376
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:31,040
Speaker 2: Security and Emerging Technology analyst Rita Konev described as an

1377
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:34,320
Speaker 2: AI war lab. It's possible that their technology has been

1378
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:37,000
Speaker 2: helpful to Ukraine, but even in the most defensible use

1379
01:12:37,040 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 2: of Palenteer's tech, there are troubling questions. From a write

1380
01:12:39,439 --> 01:12:42,920
Speaker 2: up by c SET, national security officials and experts caution

1381
01:12:43,040 --> 01:12:44,720
Speaker 2: that these new tools may end up in the hands

1382
01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:48,240
Speaker 2: of adversaries. Rita Kane have raised significant concerns about the

1383
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:51,360
Speaker 2: long term implications of the demployment of advanced technology in Ukraine.

1384
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:55,639
Speaker 2: She stated the prospects for proliferation are crazy. She also

1385
01:12:55,680 --> 01:12:59,320
Speaker 2: post critical questions about the future implications. Most companies operating

1386
01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:02,040
Speaker 2: in Ukraine right now said they align with US national

1387
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:05,040
Speaker 2: security goals, but what happens when they don't? What happens

1388
01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:08,760
Speaker 2: the day after, right, and you know what happens with

1389
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:11,720
Speaker 2: governments who are engaged in stuff that's a lot more questionable,

1390
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:14,280
Speaker 2: you know, than what Ukraine is doing right like what

1391
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:16,519
Speaker 2: we're talking about with them shopping around Israel. You know,

1392
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:19,240
Speaker 2: there's a lot of a lot of unknown questions about

1393
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:21,360
Speaker 2: how this is going to work out. This is not

1394
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:24,920
Speaker 2: I hope this is like a ground level overview of

1395
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:27,240
Speaker 2: what Palainteer does of why you should, you know, be

1396
01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:29,760
Speaker 2: paying attention to them. Nobody should take this as the

1397
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:32,439
Speaker 2: final word on everything Palanteer gets up to. That's too

1398
01:13:32,439 --> 01:13:34,560
Speaker 2: big for even four parts of a podcast. But I

1399
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:37,720
Speaker 2: think we've laid the groundwork and I think, Noah, that's

1400
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:39,320
Speaker 2: where we're going to have to roll out for the day.

1401
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:41,280
Speaker 2: Yeah wow.

1402
01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:46,040
Speaker 3: You know, usually these Behind the Bastards series they end

1403
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:47,519
Speaker 3: on such a positive note.

1404
01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:50,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, when the guy's still alive, it's a bummer.

1405
01:13:51,120 --> 01:13:57,000
Speaker 3: Yeah. When it's more like the AI machine is coming

1406
01:13:57,000 --> 01:13:59,839
Speaker 3: to kill you, yeah, yeah, not as positive.

1407
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 2: Peter's going to help build the AI death machine that

1408
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:04,680
Speaker 2: gets you targeted because you were once friends with a

1409
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:06,519
Speaker 2: guy who looked up the wrong thing on the internet.

1410
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:10,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1411
01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:13,479
Speaker 2: I should note that in April of last year, Peter's

1412
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:16,639
Speaker 2: quote unquote boyfriend. You know, he's married, but I think

1413
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:19,519
Speaker 2: just kind of had probably probably was a consensual sort

1414
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:22,679
Speaker 2: of sleeping around thing. There was this male model, Jeff Thomas,

1415
01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:24,280
Speaker 2: that he had been seeing. He put him up in

1416
01:14:24,280 --> 01:14:26,880
Speaker 2: a thirteen million dollar mansion, he bought him a sports car.

1417
01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:29,360
Speaker 2: Thomas is the guy who claims he talked Peter out

1418
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:34,439
Speaker 2: of supporting the Republicans in twenty twenty three. It's kind

1419
01:14:34,439 --> 01:14:36,240
Speaker 2: of unclear what was going on with him. Teal has

1420
01:14:36,280 --> 01:14:39,240
Speaker 2: always been famous for throwing these very lavish, very decadent

1421
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:42,240
Speaker 2: parties right, very much at odds with the whole religious

1422
01:14:42,240 --> 01:14:45,840
Speaker 2: conservative image that he had. There's definitely some texts and

1423
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:47,640
Speaker 2: stuff that have come out about like the parties that

1424
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:50,920
Speaker 2: he would plan with this guy. There's some evidence they

1425
01:14:50,920 --> 01:14:52,599
Speaker 2: had a fight, or maybe he had a fight, Peter

1426
01:14:52,640 --> 01:14:55,760
Speaker 2: at a fight with his husband. It may have been

1427
01:14:55,800 --> 01:14:58,080
Speaker 2: that Jeff got angry at him over his support of

1428
01:14:58,080 --> 01:14:59,680
Speaker 2: the right, and that like that's part of why he

1429
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:01,680
Speaker 2: pulled away from Teal because he like moved out of

1430
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:05,360
Speaker 2: the house. I just don't know who was on what

1431
01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:09,080
Speaker 2: side of this. But in twenty twenty three, Jeff committed suicide,

1432
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:12,120
Speaker 2: and we do not know why. We don't know what

1433
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:15,000
Speaker 2: happened here. I'm bringing this up just because people are

1434
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:16,800
Speaker 2: gonna be like, why aren't you talking about this? But like,

1435
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:20,679
Speaker 2: there's really not enough for me to say what happened here, right,

1436
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:24,120
Speaker 2: But it is like a thing that you'll run into

1437
01:15:24,200 --> 01:15:25,680
Speaker 2: with Peter. I didn't want to just leave it out

1438
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:27,760
Speaker 2: because you know, that would seem like a weird hole

1439
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:34,960
Speaker 2: to have in the story too. Yeah, yeah, it's cool stuff.

1440
01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:38,080
Speaker 2: It's also it's part worth noting for like the ethics

1441
01:15:38,120 --> 01:15:42,320
Speaker 2: of Pallanteer that when Peter was interviewed about like how

1442
01:15:42,520 --> 01:15:44,720
Speaker 2: Israel has been using AI and a lot of their

1443
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:48,679
Speaker 2: targeting those resulted in heavy, massive civilian casualties, his basic

1444
01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:51,040
Speaker 2: statement was like, I don't think it's worth criticizing them

1445
01:15:51,040 --> 01:15:55,280
Speaker 2: on this. You have to assume they know their business, right, which, like, man,

1446
01:15:55,439 --> 01:15:57,920
Speaker 2: a lot of innocent people have died as a result

1447
01:15:57,920 --> 01:16:00,280
Speaker 2: of this AI targeting shit. And I think that tells

1448
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:03,439
Speaker 2: you where Peter sees the ethics in his industry, right,

1449
01:16:03,560 --> 01:16:09,599
Speaker 2: it doesn't really matter, you know. Uh anyway, sorry, YadA YadA,

1450
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:11,880
Speaker 2: so much there, But like, how how do you cover

1451
01:16:11,960 --> 01:16:14,679
Speaker 2: all of this in four episodes? We're already over time?

1452
01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:18,120
Speaker 2: So thank you, Noah. I appreciate you sitting here with

1453
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:18,640
Speaker 2: us for this.

1454
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:24,599
Speaker 3: Thank you. I think, yeah do I thank you? Am

1455
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:25,360
Speaker 3: I thanking you?

1456
01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:28,759
Speaker 2: I haven't thought, I never do, never will.

1457
01:16:29,400 --> 01:16:33,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, but thank you Noah.

1458
01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:34,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1459
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:37,960
Speaker 4: And people people can follow you on the internet by

1460
01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:39,840
Speaker 4: you're at your game.

1461
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:47,280
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, okay, goodbye.

1462
01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:49,719
Speaker 2: Goodbye, joy love.

1463
01:16:54,640 --> 01:16:57,360
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1464
01:16:57,720 --> 01:17:00,080
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website at

1465
01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:04,360
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1466
01:17:04,439 --> 01:17:07,600
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1467
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:11,680
Speaker 1: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

1468
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:15,439
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1469
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:17,120
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