WEBVTT - Covering All The Topics:  Tim Sandefur Talks To Jack Armstrong

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<v Speaker 1>Right now, we'd like to welcome to the Armstrong and

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<v Speaker 1>Getty show fan favorite who we used to call Tim,

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<v Speaker 1>the lawyer Tim Sandford. He's the vice president of litigation

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<v Speaker 1>for the Goldwater Institute.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome Tim, Thanks for having me that guys.

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<v Speaker 1>Our main question, of course, is what is the libertarian

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<v Speaker 1>opinion on solar eclipses.

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<v Speaker 3>You're against the.

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<v Speaker 1>Fantastic So I follow your Twitter feed, which I think

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<v Speaker 1>is everybody should follow because it's damn damn interesting. You

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<v Speaker 1>were upset when local university to you you're in Arizona

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<v Speaker 1>paid Ebram x Kendy how much money to come.

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<v Speaker 3>Talk at a university?

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<v Speaker 2>Thirty five thousand dollars for a one hour speech. And

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<v Speaker 2>he is famous for what well, he's of course the

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<v Speaker 2>primary intellectual in the anti racism movement, so called because

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<v Speaker 2>in fact he's a proponent of racism. It's just racism

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<v Speaker 2>against a different group of people, so it's therefore okay.

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<v Speaker 2>He's quite open about this fact. He said the only

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<v Speaker 2>remedy for past discrimination is future discrimination, and he's in

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<v Speaker 2>favor of that. And so that was the propaganda that

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<v Speaker 2>he was willing to stew for an hour at Arizona

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<v Speaker 2>State University and charge the Arizona tax payers thirty five

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<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars for it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he's the guy that invented this whole idea of

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<v Speaker 1>there's no such thing as being not racist. You're either

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<v Speaker 1>racist or anti racist, which is yes.

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<v Speaker 2>And therefore there are acceptable forms of racism, and that

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<v Speaker 2>means hating white people is acceptable, whereas anybody else it's

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<v Speaker 2>not acceptable. And you know, of course, this is nothing new,

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<v Speaker 2>this sort of this doctrine that it's okay for the

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<v Speaker 2>so called oppressed to be racist against those who have

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<v Speaker 2>allegedly oppressed them. You know, that's well over a century old.

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<v Speaker 2>It was you know, fashioned first in Germany in the

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen twenties.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So this transitions nicely into the fact that DEI training,

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<v Speaker 1>kind of similar to the ibramex candy philosophy, is catch

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<v Speaker 1>and fire all across the country, or has over the

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<v Speaker 1>last several years, businesses, universities, schools, all that sort of stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>and the Goldwater Institute is playing a role in that.

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<v Speaker 3>What are you guys doing?

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<v Speaker 2>That's right? And now Arizona passed the law not long ago,

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<v Speaker 2>and a few other states have copied this law that

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<v Speaker 2>prohibits the government from requiring people who work for universities

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<v Speaker 2>to take any kind of training in what the law

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<v Speaker 2>refers to as divisive concepts. That is, the idea that

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<v Speaker 2>you are responsible for the crimes committed by others of

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<v Speaker 2>your racial group in the past, or that you ought

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<v Speaker 2>to feel guilty, or that the or that you know

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<v Speaker 2>the country is evil because of these things, et cetera,

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<v Speaker 2>et cetera. You know, if you want to spew that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of thing, you're perfectly free to do so, but

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<v Speaker 2>you shouldn't be able to make me pay for it.

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<v Speaker 2>And so the Arizona legislature passed this law prohibiting mandatory

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<v Speaker 2>DEI training and prohibiting the government from spending tax para

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<v Speaker 2>money to develop such training even if they don't actually

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<v Speaker 2>require it. And a FU has basically thumbed their noses

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<v Speaker 2>at this, and they've been requiring their faculty to take

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<v Speaker 2>and pass this training program in DEI, and not just

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<v Speaker 2>take it once, but every every few years. You have

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<v Speaker 2>to retake it to make sure that you haven't, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>somehow become a racist in the interim.

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<v Speaker 1>What sort of things will they will they, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 1>require you to believe with this DEI training, this particular quality.

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<v Speaker 2>The The de I training consists of things like explaining

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<v Speaker 2>why you know certain forms of expression or you know, microaggressions,

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<v Speaker 2>why you need to watch what you say in order

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<v Speaker 2>to because there are people with different backgrounds who have

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<v Speaker 2>different perspectives who might interpret what you say in a

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<v Speaker 2>way that is offensive, and so forth and so on,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's it's the usual sort of thing that we've

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<v Speaker 2>become accustomed to in the past decade or so. But

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<v Speaker 2>the big problem here is that this is a form

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<v Speaker 2>of right thing, a form of indoctrination that is basically

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<v Speaker 2>requiring you to step up and agree. And it's no

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<v Speaker 2>different than if the school were to require you to

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<v Speaker 2>take training in a religious view If they said you

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<v Speaker 2>are required to sit here and take our day long

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<v Speaker 2>training on why the earth was created in four thousand

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<v Speaker 2>and four BC, and why the Gospels of the literal

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<v Speaker 2>Truth and every other religion is false. We would obviously say,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, people are free to believe those things, but

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<v Speaker 2>they shouldn't be able to force taxpayers to shoulder the burden.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's exactly what's going on. Anti racism so called,

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<v Speaker 2>is just a new religious viewpoint. It's a dogma that

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<v Speaker 2>can't be shaken by facts or logic. It's just been

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<v Speaker 2>a belief that people adhere to for personal reasons of

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<v Speaker 2>their own, and they're welcome to that, but they shouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>be able to force tax payers to subsidize it.

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<v Speaker 1>This is a ViBe's question, not a legal question. Do

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<v Speaker 1>you feel like the DEI thing peaked a while back

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<v Speaker 1>and it's in retreat, we're on the march.

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<v Speaker 2>I do think that, I do think that it has peaked.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's going to be around for a while.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, because these things never completely go away. They

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<v Speaker 2>didn't go away after the first time that the ancestor

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<v Speaker 2>of DEEI was defeated in the April of nineteen forty five,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's stuck around and it's come back, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think it'll stick around even after this. But I do

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<v Speaker 2>think people are tired of it and they're sick of it,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think there are some great examples of this.

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<v Speaker 2>There was oh my gosh, I'm blanking on the title

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<v Speaker 2>of the movie, but there was a movie that satirized

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<v Speaker 2>the cultural attitude in particularly the East Coast, toward race

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<v Speaker 2>and how everything just has to be categorized in back

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<v Speaker 2>and it was nominated for an Oscar, and there are

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<v Speaker 2>other comedies and things that are starting to make fun

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<v Speaker 2>of this, and people are just tired of it. I

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<v Speaker 2>think the culture is turning away from it and saying

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<v Speaker 2>enough of saying that it's okay to be racist against

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<v Speaker 2>white people. Why don't we just, you know, accept the

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<v Speaker 2>idea that all people are created equal and that it's

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<v Speaker 2>wrong to engage in retaliatory racism.

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<v Speaker 3>I hope you're right about that, that it is on

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<v Speaker 3>the retreat.

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<v Speaker 1>It feels that way to me too, but it might

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<v Speaker 1>be you know, the people I follow versus the rest

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<v Speaker 1>of the world that it's People talk a lot about

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<v Speaker 1>being in a bubble or whatever.

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<v Speaker 3>It's hard not to be in a bubble, wouldn't you agree?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you got to work at it, you really.

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<v Speaker 1>You have to really seek out other sources otherwise you

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<v Speaker 1>just keep you know, we all talk amongst ourselves to

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<v Speaker 1>each other and agreed, And.

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<v Speaker 2>It's funny because we all thought that the advent of

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<v Speaker 2>blogging and Twitter and Facebook would would make it easier

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<v Speaker 2>to get outside of our bubbles, and I guess it does,

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<v Speaker 2>But it also makes it easier to stay inside your

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<v Speaker 2>bubble if you choose to.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, absolutely.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, which a different topic, and I want to get

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<v Speaker 1>back to the DEI, but do you have any opinions

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<v Speaker 1>of where you think artificial intelligence is going to take us?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh so far my dealings with artificial intelligence it consisted

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<v Speaker 2>of me yelling at Alexa for not understanding my question,

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<v Speaker 2>or just this week, you know, yelling at at like

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<v Speaker 2>a madman at Walmart's chadbot for not delivering my item

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<v Speaker 2>within the week that it claimed it would. And I

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<v Speaker 2>feel like an old man screaming at clouds. So yeah, no,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't really think it's at the stage or we

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<v Speaker 2>can predict where it's going to go.

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<v Speaker 3>Man, it's certainly not there yet. Yeah. I was yelling

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<v Speaker 3>at the old.

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<v Speaker 2>Enough to remember when virtual reality was going to be

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<v Speaker 2>the wave of the future, or the Segue was going

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<v Speaker 2>to revolutionize life.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, well Segue, Yeah, definitely. Segue was supposed to

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<v Speaker 1>be huge and didn't do anything. But like I've done

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<v Speaker 1>the Apple Vision pro and I think, man, I think

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<v Speaker 1>this could be a big thing for learning or whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I was screaming at the automated thing at the pharmacy yesterday,

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<v Speaker 1>what can I help you with? And whenever that the

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<v Speaker 1>computer says what can I help you with? I always

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<v Speaker 1>know you're not going to understand my question or my problem,

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<v Speaker 1>and they never do.

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<v Speaker 2>Never Jack Jack. Yesterday, Alexa asked me if I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>her to tell me when it was snowing. I live

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<v Speaker 2>in Phoenix, Arizona, so I said, yes, please tell me

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<v Speaker 2>if it's nos.

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<v Speaker 1>I lost my temper on one of those things the

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<v Speaker 1>other day. My kids found it hilarious. I was really

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<v Speaker 1>screaming personally.

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<v Speaker 2>It's fun of having them, having the fun of having

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<v Speaker 2>them as losing your temper. That's that's why I like it.

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<v Speaker 1>Back to the DEI training, so I understand that pretty

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<v Speaker 1>clear cut on why you don't want taxpayer money going

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<v Speaker 1>to various colleges to teach people that racism is the

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<v Speaker 1>way to fix things. Is there anything to be done

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<v Speaker 1>in private corporations other than culturally?

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<v Speaker 2>I do think so, but it takes something that private

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<v Speaker 2>corporations lack, and that is courage. Unfortunately, history has shown

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<v Speaker 2>that the last institution you can look for to defend

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<v Speaker 2>freedom is private businesses. Private businesses, large corporations especially, are

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<v Speaker 2>moral cowards, and they very much enjoy profiting off of

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<v Speaker 2>the latest trend. No matter how antithetical to capitalism and

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<v Speaker 2>how self destructive it might be. And look at how

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<v Speaker 2>industry funds the universities, donating money to these campuses where

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<v Speaker 2>the teaching is almost uniformly anti capitalists, and all that

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<v Speaker 2>private industry is doing by doing that is feeding and

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<v Speaker 2>generating its own destroyers. And the corporate world. What if

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<v Speaker 2>there is anybody in the corporate world with a conscience

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<v Speaker 2>and the clarity to see the importance of moral issues

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<v Speaker 2>and political issues, they need to cut it off. And

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<v Speaker 2>this is another reason why you asked earlier about optimism.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm kind of optimistic in that I think the backlash

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<v Speaker 2>against the universities because of the anti semitism that we've

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<v Speaker 2>seen lately, I think that's a very healthy development.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a really interesting observation that corporations, especially big corporations,

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<v Speaker 1>almost all ways do the cowardly thing and whatever the

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<v Speaker 1>latest hot trend is, even if it's anti corporation, how

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<v Speaker 1>do they, after all these years, think this will get

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<v Speaker 1>us on the right side of the young people and

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<v Speaker 1>then the love our big, giant, evil corporation.

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<v Speaker 3>It is never what I saw far.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't understand. In the nineteen seventies, the companies like

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<v Speaker 2>Exxon would run advertisements about how their fuel was the

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<v Speaker 2>basis of civilization and it's the good thing, and that

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<v Speaker 2>was great. They need to do that stuff again. But

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<v Speaker 2>instead every day it's more apologizing for the very fact

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<v Speaker 2>that they exist, feeding the alligator, hoping it will eat

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<v Speaker 2>them last. And I think if corporate America woke up

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<v Speaker 2>to how stupid that is and took a stand in

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<v Speaker 2>self defense and said, you know what, we own this property,

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<v Speaker 2>it's ours. We have the right to do with that.

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<v Speaker 2>We will want. We have economic freedom, we have the

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<v Speaker 2>right to make contracts and profit from our hard work.

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<v Speaker 2>We are generating and perpetuating civilization in this world, and

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<v Speaker 2>we have right and they deserve to be respected. I

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<v Speaker 2>think if a corporation stood up and said that, I

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<v Speaker 2>think people would rally to their support. I think Americans

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<v Speaker 2>are sick to death of the apologizing and they and

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<v Speaker 2>they would love to see somebody in the corporate world

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<v Speaker 2>with backbone, and they just they just don't see it.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think you're absolutely right, and the first corporation

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<v Speaker 1>that does that is going to get so many huzzahs.

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<v Speaker 1>You can lay out a screed pretty well. I know

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<v Speaker 1>you never had any interest in getting to politics. But

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<v Speaker 1>I could see you on a stage really getting people

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<v Speaker 1>fired up if you ever decided to go that direction.

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<v Speaker 2>I couldn't take the pay set.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this might be Tim talking in his personal life

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<v Speaker 1>rather than representing Goldborger on this question, Tim, I thought

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<v Speaker 1>about this over the weekend.

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<v Speaker 3>I almost texted you, but I thought I wanted to

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<v Speaker 3>ask you on the air.

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<v Speaker 1>So the Supreme Court, with one of the rulings fairly

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<v Speaker 1>recently unleashed the world of legalized gambling across this country,

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<v Speaker 1>sports betting, and there's a basket. Tim's not a sports fan.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a big basketball tournament going on right now known

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<v Speaker 1>as March Madness. It has turned into the biggest legal

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<v Speaker 1>gambling event in American history, maybe a world history.

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<v Speaker 3>Where do you come down on.

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<v Speaker 2>This?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm assuming that the libertarian view is why would the

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<v Speaker 1>government get in the way of you wanting to gamble?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, In fact, that's so much my view that I

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<v Speaker 2>kind of was puzzled by what your question could be.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, people should have the right to bet whatever

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<v Speaker 2>they want on the sporting event if they're stupid enough

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<v Speaker 2>to do that.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, So I assume that would be the view and

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<v Speaker 3>that's my view too.

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<v Speaker 1>I hate the idea of the government being able to

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<v Speaker 1>tell this now we probably shouldn't, but the reality is

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<v Speaker 1>you just said, stupid enough to do it. Lots of

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<v Speaker 1>people lose lots of money and get themselves into trouble.

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<v Speaker 3>What's society's role then?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So now you've hear it on a point that

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<v Speaker 2>I think is really important, which is you cannot have

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<v Speaker 2>freedom unless you are willing to let people sail.

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<v Speaker 3>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>If you aren't willing to let people pay the price

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<v Speaker 2>for their bad choices, then you are also not willing

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<v Speaker 2>to let them enjoy the rewards for their wise choices.

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<v Speaker 2>And what the what the free market says is people

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<v Speaker 2>should be allowed to make their own decisions and be

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<v Speaker 2>rewarded for their wise choices and pay the cost of

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<v Speaker 2>their unwised choices. But if you go around wiping everybody's noses,

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<v Speaker 2>then you are eventually going to have to take their

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<v Speaker 2>freedom away. If you promise to pay for everybody's you know,

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<v Speaker 2>whatever it might be healthcare costs, for example, that's going

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<v Speaker 2>to create what the economists called moral hazard. It's going

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<v Speaker 2>to encourage people to engage in unhealthy activities because why not, right,

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<v Speaker 2>you're going to pay their medical bills, so they might

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<v Speaker 2>as well do whatever they feel like. Well, eventually you're

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<v Speaker 2>going to go bankrupt that way. So pretty soon you

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<v Speaker 2>start saying, look, I'll pay for your health care, but

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<v Speaker 2>you must promise me not to you know, eat red

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<v Speaker 2>meat or whatever it is. And eventually you start putting

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<v Speaker 2>so many strings on all of the benefits you're giving

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<v Speaker 2>people that you're taking their freedom away, and that is inevitable,

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<v Speaker 2>it's inescapable. So you cannot have freedom unless you are

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<v Speaker 2>willing to let people make bad choices and suffer accordingly.

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<v Speaker 2>So my answer to that is if people bet the

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<v Speaker 2>farm on a basketball game and they lose the farm,

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<v Speaker 2>then they lose the farm. And if that puts them

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<v Speaker 2>at the point of poverty, then they need to come

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<v Speaker 2>to me and ask me politely if I will give

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<v Speaker 2>them a second chance, and it's up to me to decide,

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<v Speaker 2>based on their character and their past behavior, their responsibility,

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<v Speaker 2>whether they've turned over a new leaf, etc. Whether I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to decide to help them out in that crisis.

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<v Speaker 2>And that is the only humane system in the world.

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<v Speaker 2>People act like there's something cool about that. Quite the reverse,

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<v Speaker 2>because my doing that respects that person as a human being,

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<v Speaker 2>respects their humanity, and treats them like an equal human

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<v Speaker 2>being capable of running their own lives. It's the allegedly

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<v Speaker 2>compassionate people who go around trying to take away people's

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<v Speaker 2>freedom and then pay their bills, who are actually treating

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<v Speaker 2>other people like their children, who are treating other people

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<v Speaker 2>like their animals, who can't make decisions for themselves. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm saying that people should be free to make their

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<v Speaker 2>own choices and joy their profits and suffer their rewards accordingly,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think that the ultimate outcome will be better

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<v Speaker 2>for everybody. I don't think you will have people starving

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<v Speaker 2>in the street. The three or the society. The more

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<v Speaker 2>generous it is, It's always been that way. We are

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<v Speaker 2>incredibly generous as a society precisely because we are so free.

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<v Speaker 1>That is the fantastic answer that I knew I would

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<v Speaker 1>get by asking you about this. Where do you want

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<v Speaker 1>people to follow you or turn to you or your

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<v Speaker 1>substack or whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>You can find me at Sandford dot typepad dot com

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<v Speaker 2>or at Timothy Sandford on Twitter and just google me.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm all over the place, one of the most interesting

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<v Speaker 2>people around Armstrong and Getty