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Speaker 1: Is Pope Leo's meeting with the world's cardinals this week,

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the end of Pope Francis's reforms and

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Speaker 1: his vision of sinidality, a more democratic church, and what

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Speaker 1: impact might all of this have on the traditional Latin

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Speaker 1: Mass and church governance. We'll unpack it all on this

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Speaker 1: edition of The Prayerful Posse. Welcome to an important Prayerful Posse.

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Speaker 1: Since this is our first show of the year, I

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Speaker 1: want to ask for your help. We're upgrading the show

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Speaker 1: in the new year, and one of the things I

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Speaker 1: want is your input. Send your questions or the topics

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Speaker 1: you'd like cover to Raymond at Raymondroyo dot com, Raymond

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Speaker 1: at Raymondroyo dot com, or you can post them in

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Speaker 1: the comments.

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Speaker 2: Section below this video on YouTube.

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Speaker 1: Whatever you want to talk about, questions about church teaching

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Speaker 1: or history, anything at all, let us know.

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Speaker 2: Let's convene the Prayerful Posse.

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Speaker 1: Canon Lawyer Priest of the Archdiocese of New York, Father

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Speaker 1: Gerald Murray, and that editor in chief of The Catholic

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Speaker 1: Thing dot org, Robert Royal, A Happy New Year, gentleman.

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Speaker 1: This week, the College of Cardinals has gathered in Rome

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Speaker 1: for the first extraordinary Consistory under Pope Leo on the

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Speaker 1: agenda sacred liturgy, possibly the traditional Latin Mass. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how they couldn't describe it or discuss it, sinidality

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Speaker 1: and the future governance of the church. Here's the question,

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Speaker 1: is this a working session a consultation? Given the topics

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Speaker 1: I just mentioned, this could set the tone for Leo's

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Speaker 1: entire pontificate. But father this consistory relied heavily on small

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Speaker 1: working groups rather than traditional plenary sessions where cardinals can

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Speaker 1: address the full assembly and interject. I mean, we saw

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Speaker 1: this back in twenty twenty two at the Courial reform

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Speaker 1: meeting that Pope Francis ran, and apparently not all the

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Speaker 1: cardinals were thrilled about that process.

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Speaker 2: What impact do you think.

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Speaker 1: The way this has been set out will have on

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Speaker 1: the final discussions.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's hard to tell as we're taping this. Of course,

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Speaker 3: the meeting is still ongoing, so the outcome is not clear, obviously,

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Speaker 3: But what is clear is that the program was overly ambitious.

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Speaker 3: Because today Leo announced that instead of discussing those four topics,

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Speaker 3: they're going to let the cardinals vote which two topics

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Speaker 3: they want to discuss.

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Speaker 4: And they also announced that.

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Speaker 3: There are twenty one small groups, which is, as you

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Speaker 3: point out, reminiscent of the Senate on sinidality format. But

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Speaker 3: it was also announced that of those twenty one groups,

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Speaker 3: only I believe it's nine will report to these consistent

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Speaker 3: to this consistory gathering. So the Pope's that the other

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Speaker 3: cardinals I can consult with individually because they live in Rome.

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Speaker 3: So I'm scratching my head when I read that, because

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Speaker 3: here you go. Already the meeting is being truncated, and

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Speaker 3: therefore you know, the cardinals a travel a great distance

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Speaker 3: or prepared their remarks, they may never get a chance

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Speaker 3: to be heard or to contribute even to the discussion.

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Speaker 3: And I note there are only two forty five minute

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Speaker 3: sessions for free open interventions. If you have a group

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Speaker 3: of over how do you do that two hundred plus?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, Bob, there's only two forty five minute

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Speaker 1: sessions for all these cardinals to try to get an

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Speaker 1: intervention in and actually speak freely to the whole gathering.

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Speaker 1: Given the massive topics on the table, liturgy, sinidality or

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Speaker 1: choreoverf whatever the two they vote on, is this really

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Speaker 1: a consultation or is this more like stage managing consensus

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Speaker 1: through breakout sessions.

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Speaker 5: Well, I don't know. I think we're gonna have to

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Speaker 5: see what the results actually are. I think we have

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Speaker 5: to say on the positive side that it's good that

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Speaker 5: Leo very early in twenty twenty six is convened these cardinals.

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Speaker 5: On the negative side, I mean, we've already just a

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Speaker 5: few minutes we've been discussing it pointed to the fact

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Speaker 5: that there seems to be very little time, far too

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Speaker 5: little time for over two It seems like it's going

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Speaker 5: to be over two hundred cardinals who were there together,

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Speaker 5: so you know, they have a cocktail party or they

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Speaker 5: have a coffee and they talk among themselves, and then

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Speaker 5: there are only three main sessions over a day and

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Speaker 5: a half that are really scheduled, so you're kind of

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Speaker 5: the schedule itself, and the structure is working against what

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Speaker 5: appears to be the openness to trying to consult with

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Speaker 5: the cardinals again. And by the way, one of the

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Speaker 5: other topics, the fourth topic that you didn't mention, Raymond,

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Speaker 5: is mission. And I think the mission has got to

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Speaker 5: be the key to everything else, because the way that

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Speaker 5: Courier is run the way we regard liturgy, all these

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Speaker 5: other things. What are they there for. They're there so

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Speaker 5: that the Church can preach the truth about Jesus Christ

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Speaker 5: to the world. And I don't see how in the

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Speaker 5: structure that we've been been told exists right now that

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Speaker 5: is going to be a central part, even if the

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Speaker 5: cardinals decide that one of the two things that they

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Speaker 5: want to discuss is mission. But it's good that there's

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Speaker 5: the opening. Let's hope that what we see coming out

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Speaker 5: of it is going to be helpful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, look, I want you all the way in before

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Speaker 1: I get to something that Bishop Baron said and we

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Speaker 1: get to the Tridentine Mass and what the implications for

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Speaker 1: that might be. I want to attribute to quickly react

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Speaker 1: to this is the fact that the Pope has convened

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Speaker 1: these cardinals at all, the beginning of a refutation of

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Speaker 1: what Pope France is put into place, which was this

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Speaker 1: cinidality model. He's bringing these cardinals together, they haven't been

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Speaker 1: together in many, many years in this way.

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Speaker 3: Father you first, yeah, I'm very glad the Pope's doing it.

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Speaker 3: But the question is how frequented there's going to be.

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Speaker 3: Will this be an annual meeting. Will it be The

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Speaker 3: Pope France has had this kind of meeting only twice

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Speaker 3: during his twelve year pontificates. So yeah, you know, if

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Speaker 3: we want to talk about sinnidality, we should go back

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Speaker 3: to another word, collegiality. The College of Cardinals works with

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Speaker 3: the Pope for the good of the universal Church, and

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Speaker 3: that's a clear institution and canon law dating back century.

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Speaker 3: So I'm glad the Pope's reactivated. But how can you

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Speaker 3: do anything significant with an hour and a half of free,

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Speaker 3: free time to speak freely? I mean, how can you

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Speaker 3: can we say anything worthwhile in three minutes about a

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Speaker 3: complex topic? Of course, well we could that we could,

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Speaker 3: maybe maybe you could, I mean, I take my time.

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Speaker 1: But knows, Bob, is this is this already a movement

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Speaker 1: if you will?

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Speaker 2: Just the convening of these cardinals.

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Speaker 5: Well, I liked what Bishop Barns that you have invoked him.

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Speaker 5: I liked what he said because he was invited, as

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Speaker 5: I understand that although he's not a cardinal to speak

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Speaker 5: to the group, and where that's going to fit in

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Speaker 5: in this tight schedule we don't know, But he said

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Speaker 5: that what he was going to talk to them about citidelity,

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Speaker 5: he's been invited to specifically to talk about citidelity, and

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Speaker 5: what he was going to say, as he said before,

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Speaker 5: actually is that citidelity is good in terms of trying

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Speaker 5: to discuss pastoral approaches to people, but it is not

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Speaker 5: good for dogmatic discussions. In other way, dogma and the

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Speaker 5: truth of the faith is not up to democratic majorities.

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Speaker 5: But you can learn things from other people what's succeeding

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Speaker 5: was not succeeding in their dioceses and whatnot. And I

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Speaker 5: think that that part of it is all to the good.

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Speaker 5: So look, it's happening. It's something new in a way,

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Speaker 5: it's a reversal of what we saw under Francis. And

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Speaker 5: the only way to judge what the what the value

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Speaker 5: of it is is what we see as an outcome.

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Speaker 1: Father, Do you see Bishop Baron? And I was going

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Speaker 1: to put up that quote, maybe I will put it on.

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Speaker 1: This is his comment there on the screen. Is Bishop

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Speaker 1: Baron here signaling a shift from the perpetual sinidality we

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Speaker 1: saw under Francis, which was really a kind of forced

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Speaker 1: democratization of the church, or is this just one churchman's

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Speaker 1: wishful thinking?

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Speaker 4: Hard to tell.

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Speaker 3: And the major challenge is going to be as regards cinidality,

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Speaker 3: where does this lead? Because the next scheduled Grand Meeting

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty eight isn't even a Senate It's going

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Speaker 3: to be called an ecclesial Assembly, and the Senate Office

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Speaker 3: told us it will not be It'll be less than

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Speaker 3: fifty percent bishops making up the population of this assembly,

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Speaker 3: so ambitious. Baron's point here is profound because in and

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Speaker 3: of itself sinidality, the way it's developing is a questioning

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Speaker 3: of church doctrine, because the sheep do not tell the

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Speaker 3: shepherds how to govern the church. They certainly don't set

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Speaker 3: laws and doctrines. You know, dogmatic definitions come from the shepherds,

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Speaker 3: because what did Jesus tell the apostles?

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Speaker 4: He who hears you hears me.

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Speaker 3: So the democratization of the church is definitely what people

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Speaker 3: on the left side in the church want, because they're

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Speaker 3: tired of having to defend Catholic doctrines they don't agree with,

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Speaker 3: so they basically want to say.

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Speaker 4: Well, we'll vote those out, get them out of the books.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Bishop Baron is right, we have to say that's

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Speaker 3: not the competence of any democratic assembly.

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Speaker 1: Visa VI this whole question of sinidality and whether it

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Speaker 1: survives in the Church and continues in the way that

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Speaker 1: it was envisioned by Pope Francis, which, as father mentioned,

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Speaker 1: was kind of a democratic project where you bring laid

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Speaker 1: people in non Catholics, everybody and their dog, and a

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Speaker 1: few bishops, and you have these small table discussions and

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Speaker 1: you kind of bring things up and debate them.

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Speaker 2: How does all of.

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Speaker 1: This square with the teaching that Pope Leo started at

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Speaker 1: his weekly audiences this week he urges the rereading of

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Speaker 1: the Vatican two documents. The Pope said this, while we

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Speaker 1: hear the call not to let the Vatican two prophecy

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Speaker 1: fade and to continue to seek ways and means to

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Speaker 1: implement its insights. It will be important to get to

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Speaker 1: know it closely, and to do so not through hearsay

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Speaker 1: or interpretations that have been given, but by rereading the

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Speaker 1: documents and reflecting on their content. Bob, is this a

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Speaker 1: way to begin to separate sinidality from Vatican Two?

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Speaker 4: Well, I hope.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 5: The interesting thing here is the way that Leo kind

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Speaker 5: of looks back there, and there's a slight critical edge

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Speaker 5: to that to we know that Benedict talked about the

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Speaker 5: Council of the Council of the Bishops and the Council

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Speaker 5: of the Media, and how the media presented a different

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Speaker 5: view of Vatican Two, and of course certain theologians wanted

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Speaker 5: to see it as a progressive, open ended kind of process.

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Speaker 5: But a lot of people know that in the nineteen

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Speaker 5: seventies and nineteen eighties, after the Council, there was a

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Speaker 5: period of great confusion, of uncertainty, of a lack of

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Speaker 5: confidence in the faith. And if we go back and

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Speaker 5: we look not just at what Leo has called a

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Speaker 5: prophetic element which he likes in the documents of Vatican Two,

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Speaker 5: but also the missteps that occurred in the meantime, I mean,

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Speaker 5: we know that there are far few people in church

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Speaker 5: on Sundays than there were in the nineteen sixties. Still,

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Speaker 5: we've got a vocations problem that we didn't have in

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Speaker 5: the nineteen sixties. So if we're going to go look

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Speaker 5: back and say, look, these documents were solid, we need

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Speaker 5: to really build on what the documents said, and we

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Speaker 5: can look at what they said about things like liturgy

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Speaker 5: and whatever else which have we're almost entirely ignored. In

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Speaker 5: the meantime, we don't want to go back into a

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Speaker 5: period like we have in the seventies and eighties where

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Speaker 5: it looks like the church is fumbling around, and I

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Speaker 5: think a lot of citidelity looked that way to many

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Speaker 5: of us that it seemed like the church was didn't

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Speaker 5: know what to do with itself, and so it was

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Speaker 5: just kind of open to what are we supposed to

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Speaker 5: do with Does anybody have any ideas about what we

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Speaker 5: should be doing?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we said it at the time. It was like

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Speaker 1: everything's up for grabs. Let's get together and have a

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Speaker 1: you know, a round table session and see what we

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Speaker 1: want to discuss and change. I mean, this is not

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Speaker 1: the nature of the church. The church was founded on

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Speaker 1: a doctrine of faith that's contained and protected by the

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Speaker 1: Church eternally through time. But now it felt like okay,

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Speaker 1: but now we're turning the bucket over and you can

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Speaker 1: take what you want and leave the rest of it.

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Speaker 2: Baron.

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Speaker 1: By the way, Bishop Baron praised Rozinger and Van botha

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Speaker 1: Is are two theologians at the time for moving away

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Speaker 1: from what he called the spirit of Vatican Too. I

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Speaker 1: guess they called it that too, Father. Do you want

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Speaker 1: to opine at all on that and the relationship that

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Speaker 1: that might have on these proceedings or.

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Speaker 3: The last well those are yeah, actually, well, this goes

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Speaker 3: back to the Communio group, which was founded precisely in

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Speaker 3: the aftermath of the Council when there was a lot

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Speaker 3: of discent going on. And we know that Pope Paul

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Speaker 3: the six was very distressed by doctrinal descent that was

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Speaker 3: happening in the Church and the so called spirit of

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Speaker 3: the Council. So yes, Cardinal Ratzinger later Pope Benedict, he

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Speaker 3: talked about the hermaeutic or the interpretive key of continuity,

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Speaker 3: and that's something that we need to re establish. Remember

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Speaker 3: Pope Francis's strange neologism backwardism. Use that expression to describe

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Speaker 3: people he didn't agree with who were basically criticizing his

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Speaker 3: approach and saying they're backwardists. Well, the presupposition for that

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Speaker 3: is progress means distancing yourself from the past, and I

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Speaker 3: don't think that that's not anything to do with Catholic teaching,

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Speaker 3: certainly not with Saint Augustine Aquinas and Ratzinger would say.

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Speaker 3: Progress means deepening your knowledge of the sources of your

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Speaker 3: belief and this is where theology is supposed to go.

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Speaker 3: You know, Cardinal Numan's was the biggest student of the

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Speaker 3: fathers of the Church. It led him into the Catholic faith.

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Speaker 3: You don't read the fathers in the church to figure

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Speaker 3: out how we can.

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Speaker 4: Deny what was in the Gospel.

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Speaker 3: And that's unfortunately what we're I mean, when you have

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Speaker 3: the subject of community for divorce and remarried, they never

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Speaker 3: attempted to justify it by scriptural and patristic references.

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Speaker 4: It was simply justified it.

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Speaker 3: This is a necessary change because of current needs, and

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Speaker 3: I think that's what Bishop Baron is hinting at that

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Speaker 3: we need to say, is it in the Gospel and

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Speaker 3: is in the theological tradition of Orthodox interpretation of the

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Speaker 3: Book of the Revelation and tradition of the church.

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Speaker 1: Bob, you are at a piece in the Catholic Thing this week,

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Speaker 1: and it was regarding this whole consistory in Rome. It

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Speaker 1: was called for cardinals in Consistory this week, mending walls,

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Speaker 1: and you reference Pope Francis's admonition that we need to

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Speaker 1: build bridges, not walls. But you're making the case maybe

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Speaker 1: you need both to tell us what you mean by

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Speaker 1: mending walls.

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Speaker 5: Well. Mending wells, of course, is the title of a

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Speaker 5: poem by Robert Frost, you know, in that New England,

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Speaker 5: kind of tough New England way where people say good

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Speaker 5: good fences make good neighbors. Yeah, separating each other. Look,

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Speaker 5: I mean favor of building bridges, where building bridges is

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Speaker 5: a good idea. But there are certain people who have

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Speaker 5: always been excluded from the church. I mean, we exclude Muslims,

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Speaker 5: we exclude Jews in the sense of what, you know,

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Speaker 5: what they believe.

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Speaker 2: We don't.

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Speaker 5: We don't dislike them, but they are excluded from the church.

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Speaker 5: They can actually we can be in dialogue with them

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Speaker 5: about certain things. But if we're going to think that

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Speaker 5: we're open to everyone. I notice that this language. The

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Speaker 5: bishops down in Venezuela even said the other day we

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Speaker 5: want to build now bridges to everyone. We will exclude

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Speaker 5: no one. We are open to everyone. Well, you know,

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Speaker 5: it's very clear that in a political circumstance like that,

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Speaker 5: you obviously cannot be open to everyone. There has to

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Speaker 5: be places where the church defends herself. And so I

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Speaker 5: would just like to say, I use this term wall

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Speaker 5: because it's kind of a you know, it's an easy

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Speaker 5: image to get a grip on, but there have to

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Speaker 5: be definitions. I mean, between what is true and what's false,

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Speaker 5: what's good and what's evil, between people who are helping

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Speaker 5: to advance the faith in people who are enemies of

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Speaker 5: the faith. And there are enemies. I got a point

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Speaker 5: of that in the column. Of course, Jesus himself says

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Speaker 5: in the Sermon on the Mount, you know, pray for

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Speaker 5: your enemies. So we do have enemies, and we have

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Speaker 5: to recognize that we have to handle them in a

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Speaker 5: different way than just being open and building bridges.

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Speaker 1: of cardinals in Rome. There were figures trying to get

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Speaker 1: the cardinals to focus on various crises across the church,

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Speaker 1: including the restrictions on the traditional Latin Mass. Diane Montana

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Speaker 1: reported on a letter written to the cardinals by an

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Speaker 1: esteemed French priest in late December that suggests establishing a

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Speaker 1: quote ecclesiastical jurisdiction to provide a home and pastoral framework

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Speaker 1: for the traditional Latin Mass in the wake of Pope

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Speaker 1: Francis's restrictions on the Old Right. Father this idea is

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Speaker 1: something like an ordinary, which is a free floating diocese,

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Speaker 1: but it would coordinate with the local bishop. From a

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Speaker 1: canonical perspective. Does this letter actually offer a workable solution.

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Speaker 4: I don't believe so.

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Speaker 3: I like the intent of Father Louis de Bligniers, who

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Speaker 3: is the one who published this, but I don't think

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Speaker 3: it's a good solution.

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Speaker 4: The issue is not here.

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Speaker 3: How can we accommodate priests who want to say the

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Speaker 3: Old Mass with their existing congregations. That's an aspect of

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Speaker 3: the problem. The problem is how do we legitimize in

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Speaker 3: the church the extraordinary and the ordinary form in such

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Speaker 3: a way that they're accepted without restrictions at all, so

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Speaker 3: that where there's a demand for it, that mass will

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Speaker 3: be celebrated. Where there's not a demand, no one's going

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Speaker 3: to try to stop it and say, well, you know,

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Speaker 3: we don't want it here and we don't want anybody

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Speaker 3: to have it. So what we basically need is to

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Speaker 3: return back to what samorum pontificum, which is that priests

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Speaker 3: can celebrate the Old Mass at the request of the

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Speaker 3: faithful for the good of the faithful, and.

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Speaker 4: That's how we should do it.

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Speaker 3: And then seminaries should be freely allowed to be trained

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Speaker 3: and how to celebrate this mass. We don't need another

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Speaker 3: ecclesiastical structure. But on the other hand, we also don't

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Speaker 3: need a law in which a bishop whose hostile can

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Speaker 3: forbid any of his parishioners from going to the Latin Mass,

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Speaker 3: so that means they have to drive across the diocese

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Speaker 3: and boundary go next door. We don't need that. That's

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Speaker 3: what Pope Benditt solved in the past.

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Speaker 1: By the way, you know Bob's father mentioned the solution.

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Speaker 1: It seems to me when you look at you and

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Speaker 1: I've heard various people propose ways to in some way

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Speaker 1: ameliorate the restrict Pope France has put on the traditional

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Speaker 1: Latin mask. But all of this, to me is a

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Speaker 1: reminder that Pope Benedict had found an elegant solution in

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Speaker 1: some warm pontificum which liberated the Latin mass. Any priests

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Speaker 1: could say it without the local bishop factoring into the

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Speaker 1: equation at all. Do you think these cardinals will urge

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Speaker 1: the abandonment of the Francis era restrictions and the restoration

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Speaker 1: of some warm pontificum or will there even be time

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Speaker 1: for that discussion.

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Speaker 5: Well, if they vote to put that the liturgy question,

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Speaker 5: you know, they're only going to have two questions that

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Speaker 5: they can you can look at after the first session.

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Speaker 5: But if they vote to put that one forward, it

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Speaker 5: will show that there's a certain sense of urgency about it,

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Speaker 5: and I think that that would be good. I don't

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Speaker 5: know if they will get around to that. I mean,

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Speaker 5: if it were me, the mission is still the most

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Speaker 5: important thing, but maybe the liturgy is I mean, the

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Speaker 5: liturgy is where most Catholics, most people come in contact

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Speaker 5: with a.

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Speaker 2: Living words exactly.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 5: So you've got a pastor you've got a local community,

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Speaker 5: and that's the model that we've always had in the

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Speaker 5: church throughout all these different years. But look, you know,

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Speaker 5: I like Father, I appreciate this proposal, but in a

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Speaker 5: way it sounds to me. And in fact, he even

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Speaker 5: if I'm not mistaken about this, he even mentions, it's

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Speaker 5: kind of like a military ordinary, yes, of a specific

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Speaker 5: group within a diocese. It just hives off our longer

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Speaker 5: Latin tradition, which, let's face it is the is the

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Speaker 5: tradition of the West. You know, We've got antioch in churches,

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Speaker 5: we've got Maronite rites, we have all these other things

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Speaker 5: in the Catholic Church, but the main avenue in the

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Speaker 5: Western Church is the Latin Church. And so we can't

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Speaker 5: lose that connection. That is the trunk of the tree.

437
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 5: And if however well intentioned this proposal is, and maybe

438
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 5: it's something that might be tried, I don't know, but

439
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 5: it just seems to me it is splitting us off

440
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 5: yet again from what Benedict was trying to solve with

441
00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 5: that elegant phrase of his mutual enrichment, that we don't

442
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 5: go necessarily go all the way back, but we recognize

443
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 5: there are two parts here. That can be brought together.

444
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: Well, and father, you know, if it was a failure

445
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 1: and hadn't worked, you could say, well, look, Pope Francis

446
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: was justified. But not only was it working. The pole

447
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 1: that Pope Francis undertook of the entire world's bishops justified

448
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:21,880
Speaker 1: that outcome.

449
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 2: That it was working. There was a mutual enrichment and

450
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 2: there was peace.

451
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 4: In the land.

452
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 1: It was the prohibition and the ban and the limitation

453
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 1: on the old right making it seem like something filthy

454
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 1: and verboden that made it. That has made this whole

455
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 1: situation toxic, and I think brought tension and trauma into

456
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: parishes across the United States, Europe and.

457
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 2: The rest of the world.

458
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 3: There's no doubt Raymond, and it basically gets down to

459
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 3: Pope Francis's personal evaluation of the situation of the church, and.

460
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 4: He viewed the Latin mass as a backwardist thing. It

461
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:56,360
Speaker 4: was looking in the wrong direction.

462
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 3: He characterized people who like it, particularly the priests, as

463
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 3: being emotionally disturbed and nostalgics and things like this. The

464
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 3: assured claim is made that the people who went to

465
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 3: the Latin masks were a source of disunity in the

466
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 3: Church when it was just the opposite. When Benedict allowed

467
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 3: the Latin Mass to be celebrated, they no longer follow

468
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 3: the Society of Pius the Tenth, the vast majority in

469
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 3: the world. We're in union with Rome and complete canonical regularity.

470
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 3: So you know, Bob's point is the more important and

471
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 3: profound point that the cardinals have to discuss, And it

472
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 3: gets down to this, is it permissible for anyone to

473
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,400
Speaker 3: refer to the millennial tradition of liturgy as a reference

474
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 3: for critiquing what was done after the Council and then

475
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 3: trying to arrive at a mutual enrichment in which elements

476
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 3: that were discarded in the new Mass can be restored

477
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 3: in a new Mass, and that the old Mass can

478
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 3: remain as a witness to that tradition.

479
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 4: That's what we need here.

480
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 3: We don't need this idea that sick people take refuge

481
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 3: in the past. People who like tradition are the most

482
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 3: lively people because the past and riches.

483
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 4: Bob's the trunk.

484
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 3: How do you have a green leaf on a tree?

485
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 3: You know, because there's a trunk with hidden roots. And

486
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 3: if you don't appreciate that, you don't.

487
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 1: Know what a tree is yeah, yeah, well it was

488
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: clearly a part of this was clearly and a long

489
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: range goal of driving these traditional people out of the church,

490
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 1: marginalizing them, you know, forcing them into this other little

491
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: bunker over here, and then basically cutting them out of

492
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 1: the main road of faith. That was a failure. It

493
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: didn't work. I don't think it will work long term,

494
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 1: but we'll see. But this brings us directly to the

495
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 1: Diocese of Charlotte, which we've covered extensively, where the bishop

496
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 1: has already placed heavy restrictions on the TLM as well

497
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 1: as traditional postures of kneeling for Holy Communion.

498
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a major flashpoint. Now.

499
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 1: Thirty one pre that's a quarter of the priest in

500
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: the Diocese of Charlotte, have submitted a formal dubia, a

501
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: list of questions to the Vatican asking about Bishop Martin's

502
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: liturgical restrictions. Father walk us through what this means and

503
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: how significant this move is.

504
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 3: Well, So, the background for our viewers is that Bishop

505
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 3: Martin forbade the use of altar rails and kneelers for

506
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 3: the distribution of Holy Communion because people, according to the

507
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 3: law of the Church, they have a right to receive

508
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 3: communion either standing or kneeling. Bishop Martin doesn't like kneeling,

509
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 3: and what he's done is to say, we're not going

510
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 3: to facilitate people kneeling any longer, which means that you're

511
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 3: basically prohibiting in practice, because what's going to happen is

512
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 3: people who want to kneel will have to kneel in

513
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 3: front of the person behind him standing, who may not

514
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 3: see them kneeling, and people are going to start falling.

515
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 3: It doesn't really work, particularly in a large parish. So

516
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 3: what happens A bunch of priests got together to ask

517
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:09,479
Speaker 3: the Holy See, is Bishop Martin's local legislation compatible and

518
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 3: in accord with the existing liturgical law of the Church

519
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 3: given by the Roman Pontiff.

520
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 4: So they've submitted these dubia.

521
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 3: I hope and pray that the answer will be given,

522
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 3: you know, without too much delay, because what's at stake

523
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 3: here is not simply the will of one bishop. What

524
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,479
Speaker 3: stake here is the principal who regulates the liturgy, and

525
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 3: for what reasons it is the Roman Pontiff. It's the

526
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 3: Roman right and secondly, to promote devotion, not to suppress it.

527
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 3: So I think the Dubie are very worthy, and I

528
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 3: hope it would be really wonderful if Bishop Martin, having

529
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 3: heard that this happened, withdraws his legislation and says that

530
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 3: he misunderstood what he was doing.

531
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 2: Bob.

532
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: Bishop Martin, as father mentioned, he issued a pastoral letter

533
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: in December. He banned the deelers for communion. He banned

534
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: all to rails, even movable kneelers have to be removed

535
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: by January sixteenth. And there are leak documents showing more

536
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: sweeping restrictions, including a ban on all use of the

537
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: Latin language, the out orientum posture meeting facing east, when

538
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: the priest turns away from the people, turns to the

539
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: east to God and offers the Mass, and traditional prayers

540
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: like the Saint Michael prayer after.

541
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 2: Mass would be banned.

542
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: Your thoughts on the move of these priests in Charlotte,

543
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: and I would imagine they're exposing themselves to great peril

544
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: by even asking Rome to intercede and answer these questions.

545
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 2: And do you think it'll be successful?

546
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 5: Well, I don't know. I don't know if is archbishop

547
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 5: I mean then Archbishop Arthur Roach. She was British. It

548
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 5: was the prelate charge with restricting the Latin mass. I

549
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 5: think he is still in that same position. He may

550
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 5: even be a cardinal now, but you may recall that

551
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 5: under Pope France, I mean even I mean talk about micromanaging.

552
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 5: He even went down to the point and said you

553
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 5: couldn't advertise Latin masses in the Sunday bullet in your parish.

554
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 5: I mean, this is taking micromanagement down to actual typographical

555
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 5: restrictions to pastors in their various parishes. So if he's

556
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 5: still there, I don't know. I mean, maybe he was

557
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 5: expressing the will of Francis and the will of Leo

558
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 5: would be something different. But we can't discard the discount

559
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 5: the fact that I don't think that the people who

560
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 5: were imposing restrictions on a Latin mass in the past

561
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 5: have gone. I think they're all still there and it's

562
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 5: going to have to depend on the Pope to do something.

563
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 5: And it seems to me. I'm not a canon lawyer,

564
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 5: and maybe Father wants to weigh in on this again,

565
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 5: but it seems to me that these things like kneeling,

566
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 5: receiving on the tonguer in the hand or whatnot, these

567
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 5: are permitted under the general instructions of how the Mass

568
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 5: should be celebrated. So how a bishop in a particular

569
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 5: diocese can restrict what the the general instructions of the

570
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 5: Church universal says is okay, it doesn't seem to me

571
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 5: that there's a coherence here, and so someone at a

572
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 5: very high level, meaning probably the Pope, is going to

573
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 5: have to weigh in, and let's hope he does end quickly.

574
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 2: Father, you want to put a button on this.

575
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll just say the dubie were submitted, not the

576
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 3: Cardinal roach and his congregation or dicastro, but to the

577
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 3: Code Commission as it's called in short, in other words,

578
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 3: the Council for the Interpretation of Canon Law. Because liturgical

579
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 3: law is also canon law, it's not often appreciated, but

580
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 3: so the general structure of the Roman missile is a

581
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 3: legal document. So it's a legal argument, and it goes

582
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 3: back to the basis of explaining how does the legal

583
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 3: provisions in the local diocese conform to the general law

584
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 3: of the Church. And Bob's absolutely right, and I'll say

585
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 3: this again, I've said it on there. No bishop can

586
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 3: prohibit ad orientum celebration of the Mass in his diocese

587
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 3: beyond his powers because it is foreseen in the Roman missile,

588
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 3: and the Commission of the Dicastrophic Divine Worship has affirmed

589
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 3: in private correspondence in the past that this remains a

590
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 3: legitimate way to celebrate Mass. Sad to say, many bishops

591
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 3: ignore it, and they won't like it to hear it said.

592
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 3: But and by the way, why in the world would

593
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 3: you want to prohibit what was done for a thousand,

594
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 3: three hundred years or long.

595
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: And that's where that just for the general viewer who

596
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: may not be familiar, that's where the priest and the

597
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: people are facing the altar. So everybody, you know, some

598
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: crudely say, oh, he's got his back to us. No, no, no,

599
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: you're all praying toward the same God, offering the sacrifice

600
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: to the east. That was always the posture of the Church,

601
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: and you can't outlaw that. In fact, the Vatican two documents,

602
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: even the Liturgy of Vatican Two, if you read the rubrics,

603
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: the guide that the priest follows, it implies that that

604
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: posture remains in force, which a lot of people just

605
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: they've never read the documents, so they don't know anyway.

606
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: Back to this consistory in Rome, the opening meditation was

607
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: conducted This blew my mind by UK Cardinal Timothy Radcliffe.

608
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: Now this week, Radcliffe told the Telegraph that he supports

609
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: quote moving ahead quickly on the ordination of women deacons. Now,

610
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: we recently covered this Vatican Study Commission report that explicitly

611
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: rejected the possibility of women deacons, citing scripture and tradition

612
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: and the long magisterial teaching in the Church. The Commission

613
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: said there's no room for a positive decision on this

614
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: their words. They even acknowledged in a footnote that if

615
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: you ordain a woman to the diaconate, he can't then

616
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: deny them an ordination to the priesthood because there's only

617
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: one sacrament of Holy orders. Father, how does a cardinal

618
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: who was the spiritual advisor of the Senate come out

619
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: publicly supporting something that directly contradicts the magisterium itself.

620
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 3: Well, he's obviously not afraid to speak this way, and

621
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 3: this is going to be a test for Pope Leo.

622
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 3: Is he going to continue the practice which Pop Francis

623
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 3: had of letting cardinals say things which contradict Catholic teaching

624
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 3: and practice and get away with it. You may remember

625
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 3: the cardinal from Luxembourg, Holleric said publicly the church's teaching

626
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 3: on homosexuality is wrong. He said it, he never paid

627
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 3: any price for it. So this is a management question,

628
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 3: and basically, how does the chief shepherd keep the other

629
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 3: shepherds in line. In Popt Francis's time, the only shepherds

630
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 3: who were kept in line were the ones who were

631
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 3: promoting orthodoxy and critiquing liberalism. Now we have to see

632
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 3: if Pope Leo is going to continue that, because it's

633
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 3: very unacceptable for Cardinal Ratcliffe to keep doing this, because

634
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 3: he's undermining the teaching of the church. And by the way,

635
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 3: Pope Francis, who made him a cardinal, he already said no.

636
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 4: To women deacons. He told it to the American CBS network.

637
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: Well, Bob, the question is why is Radcliffe, who's clearly dissenting.

638
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: Here on a long standing.

639
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: Question that has resolved ages ago and recently reaffirmed you

640
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 1: cannot ordain women to holy orders? Why was he setting

641
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: the table, if you will, for this consistory of cardinals.

642
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is a very worrisome development. You know, I

643
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 5: just learned today. I was reading into the life of

644
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,439
Speaker 5: Cardinal Leuman for something that I'm preparing. But Leo the thirteenth,

645
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 5: after whom Leba the fourteenth took his name because he

646
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 5: kind of feels it an infinity. When Leo the thirteenth

647
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,439
Speaker 5: was first elected, people asked him what line is your paper?

648
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 5: Is he going to take? And he said, you will

649
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 5: know by my first appointment as a cardinal And his

650
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 5: first appointment was Cardinal Newman. Wow, so you know, these

651
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 5: early appointments make a difference. Now we remember that Pope Francis.

652
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 5: One of the first things he did was to invite

653
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 5: Cardinal Casper to make that the so called Casper proposal

654
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 5: that under certain limited circumstances, people who were divorced and

655
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 5: remarried without an moment could receive communion. He got slapped down.

656
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 5: There were two sentences on the family to try to

657
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 5: deal with that question. The Pope still didn't get the

658
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 5: answer he wanted, and basically what we got was a

659
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,720
Speaker 5: very ambiguous reference and a footnote later on that seemed

660
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 5: to allow it. And then there were further machinations with

661
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 5: the Argentinian bishops and whatnot. But I invocal all this

662
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 5: about Cardinal Newman and about Cardinal Casper, because this I

663
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 5: think some people at least will read this unless the

664
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 5: other cardinals step forward and say, look, we've heard this

665
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 5: a million times. Every study has said we can't do this.

666
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,439
Speaker 5: You can propose it, and we're telling you we reject it.

667
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 5: It's done. Even Francis at several times said that the

668
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 5: door has closed on that question. He also said other

669
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 5: things to other groups when he knew that they wanted

670
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 5: to hear something different. But this really is kind of saying, Okay,

671
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 5: I want you to pay attention to this guy, and

672
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 5: for me, and I think for the three of us

673
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 5: and for many more people, that is not a welcome.

674
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 4: Yeah.

675
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: Well, I want to talk about very quickly about this

676
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: Father Marco Agosteini. Okay, this was the Vatican's Master of ceremonies.

677
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: He served the Pope. This priest served three popes as

678
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: a matter of fact, over sixteen years. He had no problems.

679
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: He was dismissed within a day after a hot mic

680
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,399
Speaker 1: allegedly caught him saying on a Vatican feed quote, they

681
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: are all together.

682
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: Now.

683
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 1: It's unclear who the voice was referring to, or even

684
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: if it was Father Agosteini. There's been no official explanation,

685
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: no due process that anybody can see. Contrasts this with

686
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: the velvet glove treatment of Rupnik, a serial sexual abuser,

687
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: or Ratcliffe who is openly dissented from church teaching as

688
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: a cardinal. Your thoughts on this, Bob.

689
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 5: Well, I mean, look, we know that Pope Francis himself

690
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 5: used some pretty tough language about hi, there being too

691
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 5: much homosexuality. I won't even repeat the Italian term that

692
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 5: he used. He used it, he used it, he was

693
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,399
Speaker 5: curritified sized for it, and he used it again. It

694
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 5: was kind of like I'm going to say this, so

695
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 5: we know that there are certain let's say filo homosexual

696
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 5: elements in the Vatican, and then they seem to have

697
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 5: prevailed in this context. I think that this could have

698
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 5: easily been massaged somehow. Again, this is an opening early

699
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 5: in now the first the first really full year of

700
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 5: the papacy of Leo, since now the Jubilee year is

701
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 5: behind us and he's now going to be able to

702
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 5: assert himself. I think that this is a worrisome sign. Yeah,

703
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 5: you could call a guy in and say, look, don't

704
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 5: do that. You know, these are your fellow Catholics, your

705
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 5: fellow curial officials. Please don't use language like this, give

706
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 5: him a slap on the wrist, But to bounce him

707
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,879
Speaker 5: out after you write sixteen years of service to three

708
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 5: different popes, really, I think it's inappropriate.

709
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 2: Father.

710
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: I read somewhere that Father Augustini is still at the

711
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: Secretary of State or Secretariat of State rather at the Vatican,

712
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: and that he was at the end of this term anyway,

713
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: as a Vatican Master of Ceremonies.

714
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 2: Your take on this story.

715
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 3: Well, all of that may be true, but what we

716
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 3: know is that the remark was made, it was reported

717
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,439
Speaker 3: on a website, and he was gone, I think within

718
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 3: twenty four hours. So it wasn't a well thought out

719
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 3: to say the least evaluation of the gravity of the matter.

720
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 4: And yeah, what can you say?

721
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 3: A due process is part of church law, and it

722
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 3: should be part of employment law in Vatican City. And

723
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 3: certainly you know priests are obedient, so they accept their

724
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 3: assignment and then when it's withdrawn. But is that a

725
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 3: just way to act in this case? From what I know,

726
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 3: this man got the railroad railroaded out without any opportunity

727
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 3: to put in context or as Bob said, orfer an

728
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 3: apology for using a rude term about people that he

729
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 3: you know, obviously, is hostile to overreaction.

730
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: I think on the Vatican's part, Okay, it wouldn't be

731
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: Christmas without some bizarre profanation.

732
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 2: Of the liturgy. So here we go.

733
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: On Christmas Day, German public television broadcast a alleged Christmas

734
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: Mass that literally looked like outtakes from Stranger Things. Jesus

735
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: was depicted as some kind of vicious alien fetus wrapped

736
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: in a membrane. Mary Veckna, the artist says it shows vulnerability,

737
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: but Catholics are calling this demonic look.

738
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 2: Father.

739
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: When a diocese allows this kind of grotesque spectacle to

740
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: air on national television on Christmas of all times, and

741
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: then stays silent when Catholics are scandalized, what does that

742
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: tell you?

743
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 3: Tells it as a profound loss of faith in the

744
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 3: church in Germany as a whole, and in particular the

745
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 3: people responsible for that. This is a disgusting thing. I

746
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 3: would ask those sensitivity masters. Would they allow kindergarten students

747
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 3: to come and look at this art exhibit? Would they

748
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 3: be happy in bringing it around, you know, to a

749
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,319
Speaker 3: nursing home so that senior citizens could see it?

750
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 4: Of course not. This is all a shock value.

751
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 3: This is reducing the supernatural to whatever we believe, whatever

752
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 3: we want it to be. So it's not about the

753
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,800
Speaker 3: Christ Child and the Virgin Mary and Saint Joseph and

754
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 3: the Holy Spirit and God the Father. This is about

755
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 3: somebody imitating I was thinking of the movie Alien, you know,

756
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 3: one of these horrible sci fi mischaracterizations of life with it.

757
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 3: Just everything is ugly and disgusting. This has nothing to

758
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 3: do with the Christmas. This is the twisted minds of

759
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 3: people who cannot accept reality for what it is and

760
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 3: want to recreate it. So this is a profound nihilism

761
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 3: on the part of the German Church.

762
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 1: Bob, you just got back from Europe and you know

763
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: the grotesque nature of this display. And again, this wasn't

764
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 1: some art installation at a museum. This is in the

765
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: context and on the altar of a mass that was

766
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: broadcast nationally. It reminds me of Cardinal Mueller's recent appraisal

767
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 1: of the double truth at play in the German Church,

768
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: where pastoral outreach, he says, overwhelms established moral truth. Your

769
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 1: take on this shock art as worship?

770
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 2: I guess yeah.

771
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 4: I have to say.

772
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 5: When I saw the images, I tried not to look

773
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 5: too much at them, frankly, because it was Christmas time

774
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 5: and it reminded me of the Orcs in the Lord

775
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 5: of the Rings films, where these distorted, awful things. And look,

776
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 5: I'm not even going to dignify this so called artwork

777
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 5: or so called installation by talking about it if it

778
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 5: presents some unfathomed dimension of Jesus coming into the world.

779
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 5: It is unusual that God appears in the world. It's

780
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 5: only happened one time. But this was deliberate. I think

781
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,879
Speaker 5: of this deliberately. It's it's obviously within the the art

782
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 5: modern art tradition. It's transgressive, it tries to transgress with

783
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 5: Christianity is and it's an insult. Yeah that another time

784
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 5: German national television would not would not have broadcast that.

785
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 5: You know, there are lots of other things that could

786
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 5: have been broadcast, Beautiful liturgies and beautiful trenches like the

787
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 5: cathedral in Cologne or Berlin or wherever it happened to be.

788
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 2: Choir, beautiful choir music.

789
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 5: Beautiful stuff. So I mean, look, this was a double failure.

790
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 5: It's a failure of what art is in our time

791
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 5: and trying to supplant religion and a state that either

792
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 5: in its art officials either has bought this transgression as

793
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 5: valid or actively wants to undermine the church. And I

794
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 5: actually think probably the latter is the case.

795
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 2: Wow.

796
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: Finally, I want to end each episode of the show

797
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: now on a note of hope. I'm calling it the

798
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: Final Blessing. Did you see this viral video of adult

799
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 1: film actress Lily Phillips being baptized? A twenty four year

800
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 1: old showed this video of her baptism on Instagram last week,

801
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: accompanied by the Kanye West.

802
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:10,720
Speaker 2: Song god Father.

803
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: How should we think about these public conversion stories? I mean,

804
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: she gets baptized, she posts it on Instagram with the

805
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,720
Speaker 1: Kanye song, but in an interview she says she's Christian

806
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 1: now but explicitly rejects church teaching on marriage on life.

807
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 1: She says she's not a traditional Christian her words, and

808
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: she's keeping her only fans account as a priest who

809
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: hears confessions and prepares people for baptism.

810
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 2: What should we make of this?

811
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 3: Well, nothing, This is a publicity stunt. This is trying

812
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 3: to get religion to support her lifestyle choice, as she

813
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 3: would put it, if she's continuing to produce pornography, as

814
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 3: her career. Then this is an insult because and by

815
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 3: the way, when you get baptized, you accept the faith

816
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:02,399
Speaker 3: of Jesus Christ. Graphy is a contradiction of God's plan

817
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 3: for the human race. It's in fact, it's a profound

818
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 3: attack on the secrality of sex that the Catholic Church

819
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 3: upholds against this user, you know, turning people into objects

820
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 3: and money making things. Now this lady needs to basically

821
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 3: go back, renounce her career. Be like you know, the

822
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 3: saints who came forward who had lived evil lives and said, Lord,

823
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 3: I have sinned, and now I'm not going to propose

824
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 3: myself as a model for anything. I'm going to, you know,

825
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 3: disappear and do penance and do good works.

826
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: Bob, there is an interesting phenomena we're seeing in pop culture.

827
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 1: Chloe Kardashian said, you know, the other day, she's a

828
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: child of God.

829
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 2: She prays to Jesus daily.

830
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: You know, we saw Russell Brandon others getting baptized last year.

831
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 1: There seems to be an openness to faith and the

832
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: public expression of it. Is this a good thing or,

833
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:59,479
Speaker 1: as Father suggested, less than a final blessing? I might add, Father,

834
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 1: is it celebrities tapping into a cultural phenomenon that they're

835
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:06,320
Speaker 1: seeing among young people.

836
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 5: Well, I hope that that every one of these cases,

837
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 5: including this Lily Phillips, there is a seed of sincerity.

838
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 5: I think every Christian has to hope and pray that

839
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 5: people in the grip of this, these types of evil

840
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 5: are actually trying to work their way out. But of course,

841
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 5: the biggest problem is always you know, I'm going to

842
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,320
Speaker 5: accept God, but on my terms. I mean, when Mary

843
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 5: Magdalene forsook her earlier life, she didn't say, yeah, I'm

844
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 5: going to be a follower of Jesus, but you know,

845
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 5: I got this business on the side. I got to

846
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 5: support myself. I'm not giving that up because you know,

847
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 5: I accept the spiritual stuff, but I'm not going to

848
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 5: give that that stuff. I mean, this just doesn't it

849
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 5: doesn't work. And if you're seeking, as lots of people

850
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 5: are in the world right now, a confused world, a

851
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 5: world where all the institutions don't seem to have authority

852
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 5: or credibility any longer, one can understand how there is

853
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 5: that hunger and even almost a panic to latch onto something.

854
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:10,800
Speaker 5: But if you're gonna latch on, you got to you

855
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 5: got to dig a lot deeper than just kind of

856
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 5: a public YouTube or x account. I mean, we've got

857
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 5: to see the fruits of conversion as well, and I

858
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 5: would encourage these people to do that.

859
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 4: Actual.

860
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I agree with you, clearly. There's a there's

861
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: a stirring among young people. They're looking for answers, they're

862
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,879
Speaker 1: looking for something to anchor their lives too. But there's

863
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 1: a far richer pattern here and a plan for your

864
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: life than you know, externals or just adopting you know, uh,

865
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 1: doing a baptismal post and then you know, returning to

866
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: your old lifestyle. That road, that new highway is far

867
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 1: more beneficial to you in the long run. No, I'm

868
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 1: trying to give everybody a final blessing.

869
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 2: Here, gentlemen.

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00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 3: Well, wait a minute, Raymond, Wait a minute. A nonciating

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00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 3: moral truth is the source of hope.

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00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,320
Speaker 2: It is, indeed, it is. Indeed. We'll leave it there, gentlemen.

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00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 2: Grateful to you.

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00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: As always, make sure you check out this week's Arroyo Grande.

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00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 1: Doctor Drew Pinsky is my guest. We talk about the

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00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 1: fertility and birth rate crash and what's driving it. If

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00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 1: you want more of the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse. Subscribe

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00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: to The Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube or wherever you

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00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 1: get your podcasts on behalf of Robert Royal and Father

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00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: Gerald Murray. Until the Posse rides again, Stay the course.

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00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 2: Follow the light. I'm raining Arroyo. We'll see you next time.

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00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: The Prayerful Posse is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts

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00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: and DP Studios. It's available on the iHeartRadio app or

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00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcast