WEBVTT - Herd Immunity Only Way Out of Covid 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.400 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Charle Masser and I'm 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanobek. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:09.799 you the latest news from the world of business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.600 plus technology, politics, economics, all purnising the power of Business 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.119 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.600 analysts in more than one and twenty countries. You can 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.200 download Bloomberg Business Week and iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.120 You can also listen to our radio show at two 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.840 pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio, or watch us on 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:31.400 YouTube search Bloomberg Global News. I love Fridays for a 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:34.040 lot of reasons, but one of the reasons. One of 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:35.400 the big reasons is that we get to catch up 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.360 with our next guest him. Yeah, it's Dr Ian LUs Bader. 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.040 He's clinical Associate Professor of medicine. He joins us each 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:43.199 and every Friday from n y U lingo in a 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:45.360 medical center and joining us on the phone from New 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:48.520 York City. Dr LUs Bader, how have you been thinking 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:51.160 about this week? Because there are a couple different stories 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:55.000 playing out. Yes, vaccines are increasing, but we are also 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:58.840 seeing hotspots emerged in places here in the United States, 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:02.840 like Michigan, for example, UM, how do you how do 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:05.880 you look at those pieces of data that kind of conflict? 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:10.640 For sure? Happy Friday. So I think afore we're continuing 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:13.240 to make progress. We're certainly up to at least twenty 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:17.200 of the population now that have been vaccinated, and I 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:20.000 think we're inching towards her community, which you know, hopefully 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.559 over the next month or two that combined with people 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:28.840 who've already had uh COVID nineteen infections, hopefully we will 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:32.479 get closer to her community. And that's really the only 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:35.880 way I think that we are going to stop UM 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:38.720 not only this spread, but stop some of the mutations 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:44.000 that we've been seeing that are are serious concerns. Hard 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:48.120 to know why. There is some specific pockets like Michigan 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:50.080 that are seeing a bit of an upsurge. Part of 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:53.960 it probably is temperature, meaning we think is the season 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:57.240 gets a little warmer, there's a little less viral activity. 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:00.960 But I think overall we've made UM would progress. There's 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:04.440 still some vaccine hesitancy. I'm not sure in Michigan effects 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:07.720 related as well as the weather, but I think we 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:10.120 still have some concerns. Although I think they were starting 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:11.880 to be light at the end of the tunnel. So 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:15.880 Governor Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan has asked and called for 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:20.239 Michiganders to suspend social activities voluntarily for two weeks. She's 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:23.280 also asked the federal government to prioritize additional vaccines to 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.040 the state to help spread to help stop the spread 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:28.320 of COVID. There are those the right moves because there 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:32.360 there isn't really general scientific consensus on this, because even 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.560 if more vaccines were to get there, the period of 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:38.000 time it takes for the vaccines to start working, when 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:40.320 the virus just sort of do what it does naturally 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:44.280 in that period of time. Yes, you're you're You're exactly right. 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:48.080 I think there is a multitude of reasons to really 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:52.480 vaccinate as many people as possible. I think we're seeing overall, 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:55.920 despite a few concerns here, and they're very high vaccine 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:00.280 safety and very high vaccine efficacy. And now we're really 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:03.880 broadening out the ages and availability, which I think is 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:09.040 important because young people certainly can be a reservoir relatively asymptomatic, 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:12.000 So I think that that is important. Uh, And you're 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:14.480 exactly right, even though you closed down for two weeks, 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:18.160 even if you started vaccinating everyone, Uh, it takes really 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:21.040 at least two weeks to begin to get some antibody response, 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:24.920 and we do certainly know patients who get COVID in 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:29.079 between their first and second shots. So I think it's helpful. 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.640 I think one could argue, you know, how helpful it 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:35.280 would be really to do just a two weeks shutdown, 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:39.240 and you always have to weigh that against economic fallout 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:42.880 in consequences. But I think getting more vaccine and getting 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:47.080 it into people's arms will certainly make a positive impact 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:49.480 over the long term. Over the short term, you're right, 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:53.000 it may not make a significant impact. Hey, dcrlis Bader, 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:56.920 I'm curious how concerned you are about the concerns about 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:01.160 Astra Zeneca's vaccine. France pulling the vaccine as a second 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:03.560 shot for those under fifty five who have already had 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:07.440 their first dose, and then the EU their drug regulators 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:09.440 start a review to assess blood clots and people who 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:12.720 received J and Jay's COVID nineteen vaccine. I mean, the 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:15.520 message has been we're going to need multiple vaccines to 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:19.320 get over this. So when you see those kinds of stories, 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:24.120 how troubling. Do you find them, uh, somewhat troubling, but 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:26.919 not very troubling. Basically, we do know all of the 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:32.200 vaccines are quite efficacious and have a low, not zero, 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:35.120 but a low overall incidence of side effects. I think 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:37.719 they really need to do more due diligence and find 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:41.720 out if those clots really are related to the vaccine. 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:45.320 When you're vaccinating millions or hundreds of millions of people, 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:51.200 you can always correlate UH deaths or neurologic issues or clots. 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:54.560 I mean, this happens in large populations. The real question 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:58.000 is can we tie it specifically to the vaccine or not? 0:04:58.120 --> 0:04:59.880 And I think we need to wait for that data, 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:03.080 and it probably is reasonable to take a little bit 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.800 of a pause while you're clarifying that. But certainly the 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:12.200 other vaccines, the fiser Maderna vaccine generally are available. We've 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:15.160 not seen any significant problems with those. I would be 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:19.520 a little surprised to to really believe or see data 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:24.320 with clotting because they use um kind of an old 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.919 fashioned technique of this viral vector where you have this 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:32.200 benign virus that introduces the UH important part of the 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:35.800 spike protein to to generate antibodies, and that's worked in 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:40.000 the past without any significant, you know, complications, So I 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.359 think it's a concern. Um, I agree, maybe taking a pause. 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:46.640 It's a risk benefit versus you know, having other people 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.640 not be vaccinated. But I think it is reasonable to 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:52.839 look into that, although I'm skeptical that will pan out. Hey, 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:54.640 just quickly, thirty seconds and then we'll come back and 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:57.039 talk some more about FISER today, just about an hour 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:59.680 or so ago. Uh, they're looking for US approval to 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:03.800 EXPA in the vaccine vaccine for emergency authorization. We're talking 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:07.640 about for adolescence now, Um, that's a big step forward potentially, 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:11.200 Oh yeah, huge. I think it's it's important. Look, we've 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.880 been giving kids vaccines, even hepatitis B vaccine, you can't 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:18.440 start kindergarten. So this sort of vaccine fear and young 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.599 people I think is not really well founded. Obviously we 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.800 don't have you know, years of data, but I think 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:28.000 it is reasonable, and I think there are complications, some 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:31.880 complications rarely with young people, So I'm I support the 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:35.920 twelve to fifteen. Basically, if we vaccinate a large group, 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:40.320 we will decrease um mutations and overall gets a heart immunity, 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:41.520 and I kind of want to do a town hall 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:43.159 with you because I got a couple of quick questions 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:45.039 and then I want to move on to stress in 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:48.240 Wall Street. But question is can you mix and match 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.800 COVID vaccines? We don't really know what we think you 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:55.040 can and there may be some benefit to that. UM. 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:58.080 We're not in that position yet, but certainly for other 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.280 countries that hopefully we'll come off rate with who need 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:05.039 extra vaccine if we wind up having extra UM, if 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:07.479 they've had one, it's probably very reasonable to give a 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:10.720 second dose of another vaccine. Hasn't been well studied, but 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:14.760 theoretically fine and probably will work out very well. All right. 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:18.480 Second question, researchers identifying five new cases of double mutant 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.200 COVID variance in California. I feel like I'm watching a 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:25.440 crazy movie. What what does that mean? That is concerning? 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:29.840 And this double mutant variant has been seen in India extensively. 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:32.920 It certainly means if we're seeing five or more cases here, 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:34.880 there are probably a lot more that are not found. 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:39.760 The problem with not reaching her immunity quickly is that 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.120 you get variants, and you get the more the virus 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:46.280 replicates the more mutations, and these mutations are more aggressive, 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:49.720 easier to spread, and maybe somewhat resistant to the vaccine. 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:52.120 So this something is something that needs to be watched. 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:56.480 Potentially is quite a concern and hopefully more cases will 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:58.960 not be found, but this could be a real problem. Okay, 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.240 another one for the lightning. What happens if you don't 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:03.840 know that you have COVID, like you're asymptomatic, and you 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.040 get a shot for the vaccine. Do we know what happens? 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:11.680 Probably not much. It may not be as effective where 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:14.000 you may have more side effects such as some fever, 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:17.560 it chills. There's certainly no danger to it um and 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.400 it probably will just boost your own immune response, which 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:23.640 is fine, all right. Last lightning round wealthiest countries getting 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:27.840 the vaccinine vaccine and vaccinated faster. You know, we keep 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.760 talking with people about the concerns about that. What do 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:33.679 you what are your thoughts on that? You know, it 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:35.920 would be great if life were fair, and it would 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:40.160 be everyone wants to feel and control. Humans like to feel, uh, 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.640 they hate change. They love to be in control. And 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.480 this pandemic has certainly disturbed that. I think it's reasonable 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:49.200 for the countries that have developed the vaccine and funded it, 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:51.800 you know, to get it. But unless we really do 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:55.680 share extra for example, with Mexico into our southern border 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.440 that really has a very little vaccine, and around the world, 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:02.760 all we're going to do is prolong the infection for everyone. 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:06.280 So I think it's in everyone's interest to collaborate and share. 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:08.640 But I do think it's reasonable for the countries that 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:10.959 have paid for it, you know, to get it first, 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:13.720 but certainly not to hoard it. Okay, I didn't mean 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:16.680 to stress you out with that, but speaking not at all, 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:19.839 you're so good. But speaking of stress, uh, Wall Street, 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:21.720 we feel like all of a sudden, we've seen a 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:25.520 flurry of stories. Real Bank of Canada and Toronto Dominion 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:27.840 Bank they're giving employees an extra paid day off this 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:31.800 year as the pandemic is showing signs of worsening in Canada. 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:34.840 I mean, there are concerns about strength, you know, early 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:38.880 first time junior investment bankers, you know, telling that you know, 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:40.280 the firms are saying you don't have to work on 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:45.960 the weekend. Wall Street stress, Um, you're you know, do 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:49.480 you feel like companies and the world is thinking differently 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.720 about how stress impacts us as workers. I think so. 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:56.200 I think companies are thinking a bit differently. They're hopefully 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:59.280 thinking more about their employees. This has been a very 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:04.520 stressful time. They're documented increased stress, anxiety, suicidal thoughts, fatigue. 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:07.200 You know, humans don't like change, they don't like to 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:09.480 be vulnerable. We do a lot of things to pretend 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:11.960 we're not vulnerable, even though we are. And I think 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:15.360 it's reasonable for companies to make some accommodation. On the 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:17.960 other hand, people have to sort of step up and say, 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:21.720 you know, life is challenging, let's help each other, let's collaborate, 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.800 Let's be nurturing to each other if we can. Um 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:27.680 But stress comes along and there there will be other 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:29.800 problems along the way, and I think we have to, 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:33.000 you know, accommodate, but not make people assume that life 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:35.319 is going to be easy. Dr Las Beta. We only 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:37.160 have thirty seconds left for this, but do you just 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:38.800 leave us with a little tip to help us de 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:40.720 stress for the weekend. If people are starting to feel 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:45.400 burned out getting the fourteen months into this pandemic one, 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:48.360 I think people should feel encouraged that we're getting closer 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:52.640 to her community, nurture yourself, socialized very important to socialize 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:56.559 either with distance outside six ft exercise. The weather is 0:10:56.600 --> 0:11:00.160 getting nicer, take your vitamin D and I think there 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:01.840 is light at the end of the tunnel and we 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:03.600 do have to hang in there a little bit longer. 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:06.680 Thank you. We appreciate that. I like to end on 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:10.080 that good, good idea and good advice. Ian, Thank you 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:12.680 so much. Dr Ian los Bader, clinical professor of Medicine 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:15.200 at n y U Landown, on the phone in New 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:18.719 York City. I have to say, is it's gotten warmer, Tim, 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.120 that has given me some optimism. Yeah, you know, it's 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:23.720 been great. It's just going on walks after work or 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:25.679 later at night when it's like not too cold out. 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:29.080 It has helps so much. This is Bloomberg Business Week 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:33.240 with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim Stinovic on 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.560 Bloomberg Radio. Well, there's a story in the magazine this week. 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.520 It's about the big pharmaceutical company that was out in 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:43.240 front in the race for a vaccine, Tim until it wasn't. 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:46.520 That company is Astra Zeneca. Joel Weber is an editor, 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:49.400 is the editor of Bloomberg Business We excuse me, Jolly 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:52.480 joins us on the remote from Brooklyn. Jeremy Keane is 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:54.959 the futures editor at Bloomberg Business Week, and he joins 0:11:55.040 --> 0:12:00.280 us on the phone from Turkey, Joel, what happened with 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:05.400 Astra Zeneca well is one of the most interesting stories 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:11.440 I think UM in in the pandemic because there was 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:17.439 this collaboration between Oxford University and Astra at that at 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:19.480 the start it really looked like it was gonna be 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.480 the first vaccine out of the gate that people would 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.760 be able to use. And and the beauty of this 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:30.280 particular vaccine, of course, is that it is really cheap 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:34.440 to make and does not require refrigeration, and so from 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:37.160 the get go it was viewed as this great hope 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:41.200 because it would be basically the world's vaccine um it. 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:49.040 As the UH trials went along, the Astra Zeneca started 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:52.160 to have some unforced errors and that's led to where 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:54.640 we are now, which is that the company has been 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:59.400 sort of mired in and confusion and hesitancy. And the 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.800 ultimate is cure is that UM a vaccine that does 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.520 look to be effective. And there has been recent news 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:10.160 about UH some current concerns about UM clots that should 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:14.520 be taken seriously. But but the pluses continue to outweigh 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:18.360 the minuses. Um, yet we we could end up prolonging 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:22.760 the pandemic because of the hesitancy around the vaccine. So 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:26.760 so Jeremy was the guiding editor on this story. UM, Jeremy, 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.080 I'm just curious to you as as you got into this, 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.800 Like there was so much There's been so many stories 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:35.040 about astro over the past several months, and like, I 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:37.560 think this was the best read that pulled it all together. 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:39.760 And I'm curious to you, like, what what were the 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:42.600 things that really stood out to you as you were 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:46.440 editing the story. I think you know, for me, joll 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:52.000 it was the sense almost as it's I hesitated to 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.640 the author of tragedy because like, this is still a 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:59.120 good vaccine, you know, like they they're the the Affrica 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:01.679 series lots and pretty good at being very good, I 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:06.680 would say, in the mid seventies. UM. And the you 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:10.199 know that the clotting is something that you know, governments 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:14.520 are clearly taking very seriously. UM. But it becomes hard 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:18.280 to kind of separate what, um, you know, the story 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.560 of the vaccine from from the cauldron of the pandemic 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:22.400 and all the things that you know they were doing 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:27.240 as the front that were really that they they were 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:29.760 trying to do something under immense pressure. The world was, 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:33.640 you know, shutting down everybody. You know, people were dying 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:38.160 really quickly. And the company in partnership with UM, you know, 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:40.640 with the University of Oxford that you know, they set 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:44.200 terms that were designed to have the vaccine be not 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:48.120 for profit. There are so many good intentions that that 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:51.200 went into it. And you know, it's true that they 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:53.240 had a lot of unforced dairs, but even some of 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:57.400 those unforced errors are difficult to separate in a way 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:01.040 from UM you know, just from from the way that 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:03.440 things are perceived during a pandemic versus the way that 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:06.960 they might have been perceived outside that context. You know, 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:13.760 like those trials we're so closely watched and you know, yeah, right, well, 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:16.080 you know, Jonathan, how much of it was I mean, jeremy, 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:18.880 excuse me, how much of it was that this was 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.120 you know, it was a partnership. It was kind of complicated. 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.960 I mean, Oxford was, you know, I think starting their trials, 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.080 it was recording this story, you know, when Astra came in, 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.320 you know, so it was kind of a complicated relationship. 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:34.880 I feel like from the get go, and also this 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:39.560 is the first vaccine, right that Astra has done. That's 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:41.880 that's correct. They have they have they had a flu 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:45.960 um treatment. I believe that that was pretty much the 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:48.120 only the only thing that they that they had really 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:51.240 done in that area. And you know, they definitely had 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:56.680 a very good reputation heading in under under their their CEO. 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:02.440 You know, they'd really gotten a good reputation for putting uh, 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.360 you know, drugs, particularly cancer drugs, getting new treatments on 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:07.920 the market. Um. But when they came in, you know, 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.000 like Oxford had already been working on this, they had 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:14.120 already begun plans for UK and Brazil and South African trial, 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.520 so they took over that part of it, and then 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:20.280 you know, Astro said, okay, well we'll we'll work out 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.320 the US trial. And so you know, right at the 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:27.480 very beginning, there was there wasn't one trial protocol that 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:29.800 was going on everywhere, and you know that that makes 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.840 a little harder to kind of explain what you're doing 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:34.880 and to keep track of things and to tell your story, 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.760 to tell the story of what you're what your vaccine 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:41.560 can do to the public. Well, speaking of that, what 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:45.840 is the potential consequence of these blunders over the past 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:48.040 few months from Astro's enco when it comes to the 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.200 global rollout here, because this is this was supposed to 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:53.480 this is what was supposed to be a vaccine that 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:57.760 was really supposed to help prevent COVID in many people 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:00.720 around the world because it's so much easy to transport 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:02.800 than the m R and A shots from Visor and 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:07.919 moderna Joel take it away and go ahead, Jeremy Well, 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.000 I was just gonna say quickly that and to be clear, 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:13.600 like you know, it's still doing that in places that 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:17.400 you know there. But the consequences, of course are especially 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.560 with the you know the report that just a couple 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:24.040 of days ago, um, you know, the the the European 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:28.439 Regulatory Agency, the British Regulatory Agency can come out and 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:32.440 discussed a possible link between the vaccine and these blood 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:34.600 clots and you know, we're talking about an incidence. I 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:39.000 believe it's for every million. Was the figure that that 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:43.080 the UK I'm not mistaken them up with, and you know, 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:45.879 so that you can talk about where that lies on 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:49.920 the continuum of risk. But they're all these people are 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.480 also still saying like the benefits of taking it far 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:55.280 away the risk especially in the elderly where the incidents 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:59.159 of clotting seems to be lower, and also UM and 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.320 also because the risk of of what happens if if 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:04.919 you catch COVID is so much higher. So you know, 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:08.000 that's all still that that part is still true like that, 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:10.080 you know, they still want to be getting this vaccine 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:13.000 out there into the world. But there's also the problem 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:16.400 of course that hesitancy. UM. You know. We one thing 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.280 that that that's discussed towards towards the end of the 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:23.280 piece is that UM. You know, you have people coming 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:26.280 out and saying this is partly a public relations problem 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:30.320 because people see these mistakes, these the and you know, 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:35.240 these the reports about the clots come up and people 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.200 die away from taking something that the world needs people 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:43.359 to be. Yeah, I think that that confusion part is 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:50.720 the ultimate um uh unforced air. Right. Had this uh 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:55.439 collaboration gone more more smoothly, UM, we probably would have 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:59.200 had a vaccine that people would not have had any 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:03.520 hesitancy about UM. And instead we've inserted a modest amount 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:05.840 of head fakery into this whole thing, and that's just 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:09.560 leads to confusion. And you know, the number one thing 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:12.960 is we're seeing um around the world is like, you know, 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:16.919 this is still a very lethal virus. The mutations UM 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:20.600 we we still don't undersstand. And the more people that 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.199 get vaccinated, the more protection that we have. So the 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:26.159 hesitancy is really just impeding it. So the fact that 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:28.000 this goes from first to last, and then I have 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:29.720 to say, like, you know, the kicker of the story 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:32.400 of just like from astros in Eco's perspective, they wouldn't 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:34.919 even probably done this if they were to do it 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.720 all over again. I just think really kind of sums 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:40.040 it all up. Not easy to go from favorite child 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:42.359 to problem child, that's for sure. Hey, Jole, thank you 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:45.080 so much. Joe Weber, editor of Bloomberg Business Week, Jeremy Keane, 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:53.480 the Features editor of the magazine. This is Bloomberg Business 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:57.280 Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovich 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:01.760 on Bloomberg Radio. All right, Tim, so you remember the 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.359 story we told everyone about a few weeks ago as 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:07.000 a Bloomberg exclusive is broken by one of our reporters. 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:09.399 It was about to start up Varcada and thousands of 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:12.720 its surveillance devices were hacked into. We are learning more 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:16.439 though about that company, including about the fat boys culture 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:20.160 that rained there. It's our most read story on the Bloomberg. Yeah, 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.679 and for a good reason. Uh, it is a fantastic story. 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:27.560 William Turton is a Bloomberg New cybersecurity reporter and he 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:31.159 joins us on the phone. Now, William, I'm glad we're 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:33.080 getting to talk about this again. William was on Quick 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:34.760 Take with me a little earlier in the day to 0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:38.639 talk about this story. What did you learn about the 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:43.119 culture of Vercada and hey, how perhaps it was connected 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:45.879 to the problems that the company has had when it 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:49.760 comes to its own cybersecurity. Thanks for having me. So 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:53.240 we spoke to you know, eight current and about sixteen 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:57.280 former employees who told us that, you know the company 0:20:57.400 --> 0:20:59.879 in some ways, it's comparable to a frat house, you know, 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:03.359 particularly as sales t the sales team was really focused 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:07.080 on profits in scale um and in the course of 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:11.159 doing that, they threw a lot of parties, even parties 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:13.840 during the pandemic. But they also mislead their customers. They 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:17.080 told them they made them promises about the security of 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:19.600 its products. It just simply weren't true. They told potential 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:23.480 customers that Ricotto Commerce are virtually unhappable. They would tell 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:27.479 customers that Ricotto was an M I T slash Stanford company, 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:30.120 which is not true. Just the co founders are alumni 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:33.119 of and my team Stanford. UM and so you know 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:35.320 this culture. A lot of employees said that, you know, 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:39.160 when the hack eventually happened, they weren't that surprised because, 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:44.040 you know, for a company that has so much valuable 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:46.520 kind of insight and it's essentially running just kind of 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:51.000 a massive private surveillance state. Um, they didn't take a 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:53.440 lot of care to make sure that the privacy and 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:56.760 security of cameras were protected. And yet they have some 0:21:56.880 --> 0:22:02.919 impressive investors Sekoya Capital. Yeah, yeah, you know, they've raised 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:06.200 ten millions of dollars in center capital investment. They've grown 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:11.720 extremely quickly. They've gone you know, they started in essentially 0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:13.359 no market share to now being one of the biggest 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:17.080 players in the market. Um. And and that is because 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:20.040 you know, they had such a massive cash infusion, right 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:24.600 um And so right, it does beg the question where 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:29.040 was the oversight, Where was uh, you know, the adults 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:31.800